Dark Angels Faction Review: Rules and Armoury (Horus Heresy)

[@TheRovingRebel61]

I play Dark Angels and so far I've had the most fun not using our Rites of War at all, my lists have generally run a 20 man Deathwing assault squad w/an apothecary and jump pack paladin warlord, a couple large Stormwing Tactical squads, as well as a 10 man Firewing reconnaissance squad with Nemesis bolters. Mix in a unit or two of Dreadwing in rhino's, an Inner Circle squad, a couple tanks and a dreadnought or two, and altogether it's a very versatile army that while not amazing at any one thing definitely feels like it can handle it's own against a variety of army types and feels very satisfying to play. It's also fluffy because I have at least one unit from each Wing, which feels fitting

[@PraetorHesperus]

Not that the terranic greatswords arent super good, but it's worth pointing out that you can only put them on independent characters, sergeants can only take calibanite warblades. Obviously knights cenobium all have them, but if you dont spam those I dont think having them on ICs is too game breaking

[@charlesfe]

And Deathwing Companions, who can also have jump packs.

[@Hearesy]

Same with plasma burners, which are much more reasonable at 20 points, but for some reason cost 8 points - less than a plasma gun - on interemptors!

[@lonestar1701]

Can't wait for your video on the Ultramarines. It's the army I'm currently building.

[@mikecarusone]

Love the space Romans

[@thrills120]

Not sure I agree with the overall assessment of the army, the Terranic GW and burners are obviously very powerful but I believe they make up for DA being weak in other areas. You said it yourself basically everything else that you mention in the video is underpowered, some even unusable, except for the two weapons and the HEX. The lack of line options in the DA army make it hard to hold objective, most of the other armies get to choose additional units to act as line DA do not, most of the factions have a decent reaction that can destroy the burners before they get to fire, the DA do not, the 8” range on the burners make them incredibly open to counter charges, reactions, etc. It means armies can sit back and pick off the burner/GS units while forcing tactical troops to get into melee. There are def ways to play around the burners, yes if someone spams only burners that’s going to be a bummer but that could go for a lot of units in most armies.

[@Hearesy]

Very few armies actually get additional line. Just the ones you hear talked about a lot! they do badly out of some other parts, but the weapons/units are all you need for an army to be over the top, regardless of the other stuff. It does raise the question of if you nerf burners and knights do they have anything left, but i would argue yes they do, in a reasonably balance game they have plenty left - its only overly competitive armies that would be less good if those were fixed. In my opinion anyway!

[@thrills120]

@@Hearesy it’s a good question and I’m not sure of the answer right now but I do think that ultimately it’s the players responsibility for making their armies fair and fun because every (most) armies have the ability to be OP if they wanted to max their lists. I’d rather an army have OP options and put it on the players to pair it down than not have anything and struggle to keep up with everyone else. I don’t think burners or terranic GS are broken by any means, that being said, If someone runs a burner spam list without telling their opponent to a non-competitive 30k game they’re kind of just being a dick and probably have other issues they need to work through lol.

[@memyselfandi1300]

The great debate: Plan a list around the Rights of War or maximize the units on an individual basis. Either way a lot of the buffs feel very situational. The only "all around can be used" things are the swords and plasma which, if the comment section wasn't a hint of, will definitely get some eye rolls from opponents.

[@Hearesy]

Yeh, and its a weird place the game design has put DA players in. I think as long as you’re being careful you can build a good list that is fun to play against - eg limiting yourself to 1 cenobium and 1 interemptors, or multiple interemptors but dont alpha strike with them, etc

[@memyselfandi1300]

@@Hearesy That's what I was thinking. Especially how points work with Interemptors vs upgrading support units with plasma. If you wanted to cheese you pay for it.

[@franciscogrundy9284]

I like the customizability of the DA's but their ROW's actually end up limiting them as the units they take as troops for their ROW's have to use the Hexagrammaton acociated with that ROW and sometimes its a Hexagrammaton which does nothing for Tacticals, Breachers, or Assault marines

[@KothraStreamdiver]

Yeah, you have things like the Deathwing rule which does basically nothing for most Terminator units.

[@r.j.macready]

@@KothraStreamdiver Deathwing being associated with Terminator armour is a 40k detail. Likely a result of having to fold all remnants of the legion wings into the Deathwing and Ravenwing after the destruction of Caliban. The Ironwing was the Wing that had the largest contingent of units in TDA in the 30k era.

[@KothraStreamdiver]

@@r.j.macready My point is because the Deathwing rite of war lets you take terminators as troops but also forces them to use the Deathwing rule which they won't benefit from unless you just give them all power swords for some reason.

[@r.j.macready]

@@KothraStreamdiver I see your point thanks

[@sheevpalpatine1584]

The paladin gets to choose one of the order special rules from the Cenobium knights

[@Hearesy]

Damn, i forgot to mention that! Thanks

[@Deus888]

Perfect timing. I was wondering about DA as my second 30k army :)

[@971zero]

I've been thinking about putting stasis missiles on a veteran squad in a land raider, and trying to proc concussion with it right before they charge. Probably give them a grav gun too to tie the whole weapons of the dark age feel together. Probably not the best loadout, but it just sounds fun.

[@Hearesy]

Thats definitely the way id use them if i was going to. And yeh, dont let my videos stop you doing cool stuff. It has a place and will sometimes do good stuff!

[@radamanthus]

I chose DA based on aesthetics and fluff. Guess I’ll need to be more mindful when list building

[@r.j.macready]

Did you ever release a part 2 for Dark Angels? I cant find it.

[@Ademont]

Great and informative video! Thank you

[@Hearesy]

You’re welcome and thanks!

[@michahanuszkiewicz9409]

I think I have finally decided what legion I want to play. It’s gonna be ultramarines although I have a problem with those units from supplement - they are stupid good. Why those “plasma” missiles don’t have 4+ breaching, 7str and “gets hot”? That would fix them I think

[@miguelgilcasas3560]

play them like that and tell us how they do! definetely sounds like a pretty nice idea!

[@TheRainman614]

I think they should be good but not a head and shoulders above everything else. I think if they can shoot at anything on the table it should be breaching (6+). If you see it breaching(5+). Heck the Dark Angels are great but not the greatest and they have plasma that is breaching (4-6+). Just my thoughts - make them "Gets hot" too but this shouldn't be too much of an issue as I thought those terminators had BS5.

[@michahanuszkiewicz9409]

@@TheRainman614 Well, all handheld plasma weapons have gets hot, breaching 4+ and str 7 - I would say thats sufficent. I know they dont need LOS to shoot but also those Heavy missles are only 24" .

[@miguelgilcasas3560]

@@michahanuszkiewicz9409 also S7 won't instant death marines, which is a huge self-imposed nerf. With that they get a different role from siege Termies while still being really really good, but not as much of a "feelsbad" unit. I think it could really work!

[@michahanuszkiewicz9409]

@@miguelgilcasas3560 Yeah, I agree, it just feels like someone hasnt updated their weapon profile duh. This way they would still be awesome, shooting plasma from behind a building, but not broken, come on, 5 shots without LOS that hit on 2 with reroll and instakill termies no armor save? wtf xD I dont think there is a single infantry weapon in the game that has 8 str ap 2 and 24" range

[@Mittens_Gaming]

Great review!

[@MisterViable]

I don't think you can take terranic greatswords on anything but Independent Characters, which makes it pretty limited. Liber Astartes p. 156.

[@Hearesy]

Correct, but there are two units you can take it on so not really restrictive at all!

[@Godspeace21]

Excellent! How would you run regular Terminators in Dark Angels? This is really well timed, I got my Age of Darkness box last night and my plans are to run Dark Angels in HH.

[@Hearesy]

From the AoD box a mix of lightning claws and chainfists is great!

[@vojtaxxxxxxx]

Regular box termies don't work amazingly with DA That said they xan still be a decent durable dreadwing backbone to whatever your army needs Alternatively if you can get oyurself a hand on a banner you could take them as command squad terminators

[@Sup3rSaiy3n]

Really enjoyed this one ;)

[@Hearesy]

Awesome!

[@ce017]

Here we goooo! The best loyalists legion by far

[@combatwombat2134]

You misspelled "traitor."

[@JonathanFlexx]

@@combatwombat2134 so original!

[@combatwombat2134]

@@JonathanFlexx hey, mocking the Dark Angels is a time honoured tradition. Far be it from me to disrupt the on going work of the based. 😂

[@graffpov]

Hydra dominatus! I’ll keep begging until you do one for Alpha)

[@Hearesy]

It will be coming very soon!

[@PrimeSniper7]

Don't forget that if an Ironwing unit is a vehicle they snapshot at BS2. Also what are your thoughts on their Rites of War?

[@Hearesy]

RoWs coming in part 2!

[@r.j.macready]

Ironwing is a great wing option but also remember that the snapshot bonus won't matter to vehicled with the reinforced subtype.

[@PrimeSniper7]

@@r.j.macready they can still snapshot moving at top speed

[@r.j.macready]

@@PrimeSniper7 thanks I forgot about that situation.

[@holyvalkyrie6554]

Convenient forget DA ROWs giving VPs to opponent like candy?

[@azir64]

Don't forget cordwain an Marduk Some really great characters

[@Hearesy]

Theyll be in part 2 for sure!

[@imgrey5806]

I have a question concerning Plasmagun. Someone told me that there is no overheat on 1 with the DA. But I can't find this in the Rulebook. Do you know about this?

[@eater_of_garbage_]

The plasma burner doesnt have Gets Hot, I dont remember the plasma repeater

[@imgrey5806]

@@eater_of_garbage_ thanks ^^

[@yawnandshrug3224]

I greatly disagree with this assessment of where the Dark Angels stand. Their gear is good, but by no means in practice as overpowered as you claim. As others have already noted the Terranic is IC only unless you take a unit of Companions or Cenobium. As the Terranic replaces a fist, in essence to strike at initiative, you are trading -2S, and only getting the AP2 and ID 1/3 of the time. In my experience this is often a significant gamble as these weapons have no where near the consistency of fists or hammers. Note that both Companions (when appropriately kitted) and Cenobium are costed towards the upper end of their unit class and thus should be expected to perform. As for the Burners and Interemptors, their template nature means that they have roughly 8" range. This is devilishly short for a unit that has no good transport options and is more fragile than even your standard tactical marine due to the lack of HOTL. Additionally, if your opponent properly spaces their units, generally each Interemptor gets about 3 hits per volley, hence their damage output tends to be about half of what you've proposed. Often, I find that the only reliable way to get Interemptors into range is via Dreadclaw, which in itself consitutes a significant tax on the unit.

[@Hearesy]

Intermeptors in a rhino or land raider are completely fine. They do so much damage the transport investment isnt an issue. If youre only hitting 3 models, thats your positioning, not the enemy’s. Its very easy to get 5 min against almost every formation of unit if you place properly. Greatswords “only” being on cenobium is hardly an issue; even one unit of them can and will run away with a game, mincing dreadnoughts, enemy terminators, power armour marines, etc. No other unit in the game has a weapon even close, and especially not woth a builtin +1 to hit and more bonuses besides. I’m going go take the bait and ask - are you a DA player?

[@depthcharge126]

@@Hearesy one unit will run away with the game…are you sure about that? Ask me how I know you haven’t been playing the heresy since 2012 lol. Destroy their transport and force them to walk 6 in at a time across the board. Mob them with chainswords. Use apothecaries. Use Dreadnoughts to lock them in a useless combat unless they bring TH (at which point, your greatsword argument becomes a fallacy). Look for solutions rather than problems. I killed 5 terminators this week in my first 2.0 game using assault marines with nothing more than chainswords and power swords.

[@XxXchrisXxX78]

Cenobium aren't the most powerful unit on the table they will lose to say fully kitted justaerins but guess what they costs so little for what they have.

[@38crippler]

@@Hearesy I just want to throw out there that I agree with DA being a very powerful legion, with excellent wargear and powerful special units/characters (Lion being one of the most potent primarchs and the other two being amazing for their points). I do want to throw out the greatness of WE Caedre weapons though, Hammers/Axes/Blades being some of the few weapons on par with things like Legatine axes and Terranic Greatswords.

[@38crippler]

@@XxXchrisXxX78 They should clobber Justerins though, they're hitting on 3s and striking first if the Justerins have any AP2 weapons. Combined with the Cenobiums killing on 5s straight up they *should* average out a victory just off of swinging first and hitting better.

[@NapGod]

Is it still overpowered if literally everyone takes an allied detachment of doods with the giant swords?

[@Hearesy]

No, but it *is* probably a bit dull!

[@NapGod]

@@Hearesy amen to that!

[@galharen]

what would you recommend to start the DA in 30k? Never played the 30k before (only 40k).

[@Hearesy]

Probably some knights cenobium or companions - whichever you think looks cooler - and then a DA praetor and some tactical and heavy supoort or assault marines! 1000 points is good to aim for with a mix of plastic and some fw stuff.

[@kacpermakosa3304]

For me Deadwing is the strongest but not because of trait but becaue of Rite of War - Eskaton is so OP....

[@doshutokeshi3877]

Great assessment and thank you for pointing out what to do for casual and competitive games. Thanks again cheers!

[@Hearesy]

Thanks!

[@doshutokeshi3877]

@@Hearesy this might very well make my decision for making DA my second army for Heresy. Cheers!

[@richardkilner6702]

Hearesy, excellent content, total noob to 30k so this has helped bucket loads!! In the legion trait however Ravenwing appears to be missing .. or am I just being thick.

[@Hearesy]

Ugh, i had a note to talk about how the ravenwing one is kind of defunct given the “harbingers of the legion” rule on good units. Oops!

[@richardkilner6702]

lol, it happens man, still really great content and thanks for it.

[@eater_of_garbage_]

Ravenwing might as well not be included considering how terrible it is

[@xyonblade]

from my points of view, Dark Angels were almost always the worst marine faction in 3rd/4th/5th edition, so hearing they might be too powerful in 30k/heresy, that makes me feel good.

[@38crippler]

Oh right, something I just learned recently with the current character rules. Unless you have some sort of modifier to how wound allocation functions (challenges, precision shots/strikes, sniper, primarch) then the defending player can allocate wounds as they please. Means that if you want to kill 10 Cenobium without ID you'll need to do 11 wounds to kill 1 model.

[@vojtaxxxxxxx]

Yes you definetly can You also definetly shouldn't

[@Hearesy]

Ha wow, id missed this. This makes the units that are already super op (eg Cenobium, Suzerain) even worse. Definitely going to be houseruling that.

[@DaddyWarCrimes78]

@@Hearesy You didn't miss it, Robert Boyd is just wrong about how wound allocation works. You always have to allocate a wound to the model in the unit with the fewest remaining wounds.

[@38crippler]

@@Hearesy Honestly it's not that bad with Suzerains, since they completely lack any way to ID enemy units themselves and most strong melee revolves around the ability to gib units, plus their bad shooting invuln means you can melta/lascannon them down pretty well. Same with Phoenix terminators, which are basically killier but less durable Suzerains. Cenobiums it's the same as above, but they're more durable than either of the other two while also having ID at initiative, Primarchs can still clap them pretty hard but so far my best options in my small amount of testing have been cheaper units that have ID available trading up. Especially if they start doing a proper deathstar with a Biomancer/Primus Medicae/healer librarian/primarch for a massive brick of models that can wound pass to each other and heal on a 5+ every time they're allowed a shooting attack while being T5 after every time they are allowed a shooting attack (assuming spells go off). Even then, with all the fixings and sauce, it hasn't felt that big of a deal, but then again I typically try to set up massive amounts of overkill with Rampagers/Red Butchers/Red Hands.

[@38crippler]

@@DaddyWarCrimes78 Excluding Characters, the exception is mentioned on page 170 with the full details on page 198 where it states that a character can elect to not have a wound allocated to it, ignoring it being wounded or other rules that would normally force it to be wounded. Personally I assume that either way it deserves an FAQ and the way I've been running it is that you can allocate to a character, but they have to eat the complete rest of the current pool of wounds before you can get off of them, as would be implied by the allocating wounds section on pages 170 and 172.

[@franciscogrundy9284]

Worth noting that the Paladin consul cannot take a paragon blade which makes him worse at character hunting than the Champion but he's better at everything else

[@Hearesy]

You know the terranic greatsword is a significantly better paragon blade right? It murders literally twice as often.

[@Hearesy]

Consuls cant take paragon blades

[@franciscogrundy9284]

@@Hearesy The Paragon blade is better at anti 2+ saves which means charachters. It has constant AP2 where as the Great sword only has 5+ rending making it less reliable. The paragon blade can also get a bonus attack from having two weapons, granted that it takes specialist weapons so is expensive. The Champion is better at dueling characters

[@Hearesy]

I can tell you man, character duels arent decided by doing 1 dmg at a time. Theyre decided by the first person to ID the other. You bring a paragon blade, you’ll do 1, maybe 2 damage to the enemy praetor, and then he’ll smash your face in with a thunder hammer.

[@OrderthruChaos97]

@@Hearesy When you actually break down the math, it's about 50-50 since the odds of landing murderous strike from a TGS in a praetor vs praetor fight isn't great. You are about as likely to chip wounds through for the kill on the AP2 PB as you are secure the kill with a lucky murderous strike swing on the TGS. And a Thunder Hammer or Powerfist is more consistent than either at securing ID in a duel scenario.

[@joffreyzant3006]

First game I tried out the dark angels with their knights cenobium they were put up against mortarion and his deathshroud squad. The enemy didn't stand a chance and the knights ended up doing more damage to Morty than the lion himself

[@Sommeill]

DA and IF were clearly the team's favorites this time around. Back in 1.0 they had an ok LA, good wargear and nifty 25 point of upgrade to get scion of the Hexagrammaton. It seemed that on paper the RoW were meant to give them the specialization and flavor/variety, but now they really seem to be able to eat their cake and have it too. I just don't see GW doing anything about it and it is no surprise DA are by far the most popular legion for newcomers. I do think there should be more restrictions for the buffs you get.

[@Fireclaws10]

IF have the most unique models out of any legion in the FW range. They have 3 character models, 1 primarch, a command unit, 2 unique units, 2 praetors plus access to assault cannons and storm shields on top of the standard legion dread and all the upgrades, it’s kinda ridiculous. The only thing they don’t have is a unique terminator unit or leviathan.

[@Sommeill]

@@Fireclaws10 They are the only ones with DS upgrade (NL used to have it too) and have 3 great RoWs that give out big buffs to their special units. It is no surprise there's been a massive influx of brand new DA and Fists players wanting to try the game out.

[@livanbard]

They are popular because by far they are the coolest guys around in terms of models. Their heraldry is one of the more in dept while also being easy to apply, their colors look good both pristine and weathered, they also have absurd support from 3rd party bits and 40k stuff that can be used. If you compare with WE for exemple the only period accurate stuff they can take from 40k is the serum pattern helmets on old school chaos kits and some weapons and even that you will have to clip the horns of the helmets and limit the Khorne stuff unless you want siege of terra. Also many players my age group (around 30yo) started the game back in the 6th when the Angels were the poster boys and are looking to revisit what was their first army. The only legions that compare with them in terms of popularity is the space wolves and death guard for similar reasons, cool models, accessible conversion fodder, actually popular in 40k and so on.

[@Fireclaws10]

@@livanbard Cool looking model are fairly subjective. The Iron Hands have really cool models, it's just the paint scheme is kinda boring for some people. So do the thousand sons plus their unique Castellax, blood angels, Alpha Legion with their scaled armour. From what i see people painting on social media, i really don't think the DG and Space Wolves are as popular as you say

[@Fireclaws10]

@@Infernal_Puppet they're still legion specific models, both kits replace everything but the legs.

[@depthcharge126]

I don’t believe plasma burners have ignores cover anymore so you can still take an evade/shrouded reaction against them. They are only wounding on a 4+, and breaching on a 4+. They were honestly nastier last edition, but no one called them OP then especially since the DAs were bottom tier and their RoW’s shot them in the foot most of the time.

[@mathiasroth1416]

They are a Template weapon. All Template weapons ignore cover. This has been the case since 3rd Edition i believe.

[@depthcharge126]

@@mathiasroth1416 you are correct! I believe in 1.0 it was included in the weapon profile, hence why I was unsure that it had changed, good catch. I think rather than evade, you can use withdraw to move your 4 in away from the flamer template which should greatly reduce their effectiveness. Maybe even advance would reduce the effectiveness as well since the template itself is narrow towards the base

[@DaddyWarCrimes78]

@@depthcharge126 They had it in the profile before because they weren't template weapons before.

[@sagacity1071]

Meanwhile salamanders.... I hAvE gOoD fIrE

[@viatka1966]

I hate that they have 6 RoW's, while I (Blood Angels) only have two.

[@Seracain]

You guys have two?!

[@depthcharge126]

That’s because we waited 8 years to finally get our rules. Plus you have all the generic RoWs available to you

[@viatka1966]

@@depthcharge126 yeah that's true, I'm not crying too much, in the end of a day I am happy with what I have

[@Fireclaws10]

@@depthcharge126 so did the scars. No other legion has so many ROWs

[@depthcharge126]

@@Fireclaws10 oh that’s funny, I just checked my Crusade book and I don’t see White Scars anywhere in there lol. I’m sure more RoW will become available as the game gains popularity, but that’s doesn’t diminish the fact there are about a half dozen or so other RoWs that are available to you. Most of the DA RoWs are fluffy and super bad. Eskaton Imperative (which I played last edition and now this one) hands out free VP to your opponent for keeping units in their deployment zone. We get to make no man’s land difficult terrain…yippee lol. Firewing is the only one remotely competitive because of the buffs. Dreadwing is still a scoring shitshow to fight over an arbitrary objective in the middle. Ravenwing lost a ton with Jetbikes and Bikers losing T5 and 2+ saves. Out of 6 DA RoWs, 5 do not give “line” to any units. Trust me, they are quite bad.

[@lesbianmorgoth652]

One of the rules writers must love their greatswords ;P Edit: jfc just got to the plasma burner wtf

[@florianbielawa2919]

I heard few different people complain about DA bias so certainly something is wrong.

[@Hearesy]

The maths are undeniable, unfortunately. Its one of those times where no amount of feelings and narrative gaming can help with something that’s so incorrectly written!

[@manofthewest5395]

Thramas campaign games will be completely one sided.

[@billcypher9543]

Where I see some players making points that these rules really are not strong, I’d like to take a second to make the point that that is in a vacuum, look at what every other legion gets and it feels like da can beat it or do it better, as an example too, my gal vorbak, same cost as cynobium, they are 3 wounds and have a 5+++ and move faster but, don’t have 2+ or 4++, they have bad shooting, and even when I triple buff them with dark breatheren making them ws8 the cynobium get to reroll all hits and wounds with witch hunter as well as having +1 to hit making them hit on 4s when they are 3ws lower, our squads nuked each other partially because he can just fish for the 5+ rending instant death and I need 6s for the same thing except my feel no pain doesn’t work against it and they have an invul to do the same thing, my 10 man unit fights his 7 man after I shot some, at this point having ws 8 gv at str 8 barely wipes the cynobium and he overkill’s the gv by a longshot, and when I gave many more attacks, and units like corswain, that is just complete bs

[@Hearesy]

They’re super strong, easily the best legion in the game. Dark Angels players will need to be careful to find a good balance so that their opponents have fun too!

[@mhesselberg]

But is your opponent tailoring against you and picking Witch Hunter? Because that's just bad form.

[@billcypher9543]

@@mhesselberg or he runs kinglayer and I bring a character in the unit anyway so either way he gets more buffs

[@teuton_]

These Weapons are mean. Looking through the rules of the legions it seems that the ruleteam seems to favor the Loyalists a bit. Well they won the Civil War, so maybe thats to be expected. Plus the books are mainly written from the loyalist side.

[@red4foxela]

Have a look at the World Eaters Falax Blades. They are brutally strong.

[@franciscogrundy9284]

Plasma guns suck this edition. The template of the plasma burners does not make up for their short range. If you're going to go plasma the plasma repeater is the best option because the twin linked helps with gets hot.

[@Hearesy]

Plasma Guns definitely do not suck, theyre one of the few remaining sources of mass AP2! Both DA versions are just better versions of things that are already good.

[@OrderthruChaos97]

🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@Cabooseforprez2012]

Some of yall really thought that choosing plasma go brrrr made you tactical geniuses.

[@mikenorton1621]

Well that just sounds gross. Read thru the rules but didn’t piece it all together till your review.

[@DaddyWarCrimes78]

Aside from stasis rockets being absolute trash, he's glossing over or downplaying a lot of the really bad parts. Wait until he gets to how absolutely awful the Rites of War are.

[@billcypher9543]

@@DaddyWarCrimes78 I agree some are not great but having 6 just is a lot of options and don’t get me started on escaton, it hurts him too but it is just the most unfun thing to play with, my jump pack units can’t use them essentially, all charges are disordered and at i1 so if I charge I just loose my units when I play a melee focused army, then the interemptors which cost less than my plasma squad are in a 20 man squad pop out of a kharibdis or 2 10 mans in rhinos pop out and annihilate any of my units he chooses, while he has 3 markers of deadly terrain placed infront of all my important stuff, I’ve played into it many times since it released and every thing I have tried has been completely ineffective against it

[@Fireclaws10]

It annoys me that they get amazing tank rules for Ironwing and the Rite of War, but tank heavy legions don’t get as good vehicle enhancements. The Hexagrammaton traits are stupid good, they have an amazing sword which is basically what the Emperor’s Children go for. Dark Angels basically do what half the legions specialise in but better. Annoys me so much, when they’ve clearly messed up and ignored other legions.

[@Hearesy]

Yep :/

[@franciscogrundy9284]

@Roychan The problem is that the DA ROW's hamstring what Hexagrammaton they can take meaning some of their units will not get a bonus they can use or one which is the most useful to them.

[@PrimeSniper7]

Except the traits are actually worse versions of what other legions get?

[@deadalus11]

The Hexagrammaton traits are literally just strictly worse versions of comparable traits, none of them are stupid good by any stretch of the imagination.

[@Hearesy]

The sword one is, in context. In any case the ability to apply them to every unit makes up for it. Your guns in Sons of Horus get no bonus, your melee in Imperial Fists gets no bonus. DA make up for weaker individual bonuses by getting the right bonuses on everything.

[@jiffah]

Greatswords should be unwieldy and strike at initiative 1. Terranic greatswords at init 1 would not be OP imo.

[@r.j.macready]

No

[@Hearesy]

Agree. Or be S4 AP4 so that they do nothing when they *dont* rend to bring their averages down. But really they should just rend and murder on a 6, because 5 is just way too consistent. Or rend on a 5 murder on a 6 even.

[@r.j.macready]

@@Hearesy I don't get this. They only come on a Praetor or Cenobium Terminators which cost 275 for 5 with no upgrades. If you take a bodyguard for the Praetor you can have a unit that takes 2 or 3 more. They are relics from the master forges of Terra used to slay the Rangda and other gribblies, of course they are powerful. Initiative 1 makes them bad. Being AP 4 on the regular makes them bad. I don't see how they are broken.

[@Hearesy]

@rj the problem is that theyre just too good by an order of magnitude compared to every other weapon in the game, and they come on a very powerful unit that also has plasma flamers, a ws6 model, and other bonuses on top of a native +1 to hit from hexagrammaton. Theyre just bonkers, even one unit of them will massively swing battles.

[@vojtaxxxxxxx]

@@Hearesy well i belive there are some weapons better than TGS, the humbe thunder hammers, yes it isn't as fancy and doesn't strike at initiative, but do you even care though? When you get to swing, your backswing is basically every wound = mostly dead terminator TGS does indeed strike first, but it is unreliable. Burners are nice, but that's what movement reactions are for. Alsp if you made the TGS Ap4 you would be breaking the game design of legion specific weapons, where you are always at least Ap3. Unwieldy is a question of it's own, short version is just no