Dark Souls 3 Lore | All Father Lloyd and the Angelic Faith

The Angelic Faith was considered heresy in Lothric, but were the Angels always unwelcome or did something sever the ties?
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[@demilung]

The best thing about the Rusted Gold Coin is that it's most definitely not gold. Gold doesn't rust, the coin is a hoax.

[@magicalaxolotl]

2020 and there's still someone who makes videos about ds lore? Man you can't understand how much I love you right now

[@TheAshenHollow]

Haha, glad to hear it! I got plans for more too! ;)

[@Arthera0]

This universe is so depressing and dark that even gold rusts

[@devoidofvoltz2562]

Or it was never golden to begin with. Another lie to throw on the pile

[@demilung]

@@devoidofvoltz2562 exactly, pyrite, the fool's gold, can rust

[@vit968]

*It's so depressing that you can't buy it.*

[@full-timepog6844]

It's based off of berserk

[@Zeonis]

The theme of "Clerics vs Wizards" is most strong in Dark souls 3, The Deep foregoing their faith for heretical practices, the destruction of gods and the rise to power from pontiff, scholars becoming much more prominent in place of the other pillars, even going agaisnt the very reason for the way of the whites existence, linking the flames. Scholars no doubt had their hands in the annexing of Lloyd, probably so they could puppeteer the dead religion to suit their needs. Also Way of the White (the old one) is very popular with the undead, Who made miracles, way of the white Corona, used by Slave knights. Lloyd was probably devoured by Aldrich but at least his faith lived on until the end of the world, as a move used by Gael.

[@-v0n-]

To be honest I still think that Ariandel is Lloyd. Be carefull, it's pretty big down there. 1: He has the lordvessel, which is not something anybody can get easily. Lordvessel that is "bestowed upon the chosen Undead who is destined to succeed Lord Gwyn". 2: He is related to Londor (which is related to angels) because of Elfriede. 3: In the whole DLC of ashes or Ariandel, you find a lot of rusted coin and undead charms. 4: Ariandel has the titlle of "Father of the painted world", just like indicated his flail. Btw the flail is used to punish your sin through flagelation in religion. The "rose" is also a symbol of heaven. Lloyd was entitled as "Allfather" but lost his "title". It's maybe because he cursed himself, because this is the way to become an angel? This is maybe what they mean on the description of the coin in DS3: His first "gamble" was maybe to reach the Allfather title and it worked (it was maybe a lie btw, which would give more sense to the "self proclaim") and his second gamble was to think he could instore a divine cult based on curse (angelic faith) which migh have worked, but made him lose his title and forced him to leave and hide his identity (understandable). Also for the name, Elfriede renamed herself Friede after joining the painting. Lloyd maybe chose a name after the one of the painting he restored (Ariamis > Ariandel) and took it as his name? 5: Let's now talk about occult. Actually, it is a bit what is the closest of londor from DS1. The occult cultist rebeled against the gods, using occult weapons to slay them. Who hide the occult? The church (it's in the description of the Dark ember). How do you create occult weapons? With a divine weapon. Where is located the ember? In the painted world. With Lloyd being Ariandel, it explains a lot of things: 1st, he could have been the creator of such an amber, 2nd he knew were it is hidden (and maybe is the one that hid it?), 3rd it would explain why he knew the existence of the painting and how it was painted (description of the rose) 6: Occult is related to Velka and crows, but also the pardonner. Velka and pardonner have some links to Londor (many spells atributed to Velka became Londor spells), Pardonner were incredible swordmen (like the founder of the church of Londor), etc. Many links to Londor are made in the ringed city, where you actually find clerics of the way of white that are undeads and that carry the same things on their back as the pilgrims! And actually, crows might be what looks the most like angels from DS1 (especially crow ladies). And Ariandel is half crow. Other thing: The undead asylum is where undeads are put in captivity, and it is highly possible that it is by the way of white (which are the undeads hunters). And who bring you out? The giant crow. But, also, undeads in the asylum are also refered as "pilgrims", because the "chosen ones" are supposed to go in their pilgrimage in the land of gods. Big pilgrim key from DS1 "Big key belonging to a chosen Undead pilgrim. But this Chosen Undead knows not what this pilgrimage has in store". If the chosen ones are, in the end, chosen by Lloyd, maybe the pilgrimage is not exactly what we think it is. 7: This one is a simple observation, but I find it funny that both curse and way of white are using the ring as a symbol (maybe the way of white symbol was originally made this way because of the curse, because they hunt them, or maybe because they want to turn the curse into light?). 8: The pilgrims of the way of white are searching for the rite of kindling, which is directly linked to cleric and the flame. Plus this art is found on Pinwheel who "stole the power of the gravelord" for resurection purpose. Ariandel resurect many time Elfriede using the flame of the lordvessel to turn her into her "cinder state" (just like when you sue an ember, you can see the effect on her clothes on phase 2 but not on phase 1). He might have used the power of kindling stolen from Nito the same way Pinwheel did, but in a way that works. I mean, there are many plots going in the shadows in the dark soul world. And I find it pretty weird, that Ashes of Ariandel just doesn't explicitly add a lot lore, while showing character that feel really important. The way Ariandel is introduced, what he says, his item, the fact he has the lordvessel.. He just feels like a really important character that we know nothing about directly. I think Lloyd main goal was to replace Gwyn, a become unique by killing other Gods and replacing them with the men, becoming the center of their cult (angelic faith) and so, the only true god. It would also fit a certain logic: Monotheism replaced Polytheism in many countries, and gods related to elements or phenomenes (thunder, fire, forge, war, just like gods in dark soul) are replaced by a sacred one (God) whose subjects are angels. Which also fit to the evolution of faith in DS (men losing faith in the old gods, especially Gwyn the lord of thunder, and gaining faith into something else, personalised by angels, the Divine) It's just speculations of course, and now that we know we won't get any answer, it will just remain my simple point of view! But damn, Lloyd is the character that I've always wanted to have more informations about since DS1!

[@samlee7805]

Sick!

[@Esteevveez]

Thank you for this

[@strawhatshinigami9190]

I love this. Do u mind if i use this for the plot of a story ?

[@-v0n-]

@@strawhatshinigami9190 Of course you can!

[@stefvanroey8191]

Good theory, a thing i might add: gwyn and lloyd are welsh names, and ariandel does have a thick accent does he not? Might be a subtle hint. But i need an expert to tell me if its actually welsh :) 1 more thing: the rite of kindling specifically burns humanity to boost fire, it has nothing to do with resurection except maybe returning the first flame back to life. The power pinwheel stole was most likely necromancy.

[@jonathancapps1103]

You say that Lloyd created undead to send on pilgrimage, but I was under the impression that the pilgrimage was little more than a wild goose chase dreamed up as a reason to send away those clerics who happened to become undead.

[@Murphio25]

I'm pretty sure that's the common conception of what happened, though I guess it is possible that Lloyd himself somehow created undead, considering how mysterious the process of undeath is I find it unlikely.

[@TheTriforceDragon]

@@Murphio25 I always assumed, after the DLC in Dark Souls 3, that the curse of the undead was the result of how the rising age of dark interacted with the Seal of Fire placed upon humanity. I mean that is what the Darksign, the symbol of undeath, is, the Seal of Fire placed by Gwyn upon humanity to lock away the dark. So as the fire wanes, the Seal of Fire weakens (but is not broken) allowing some of the growing dark to seep through, but since it is still kept at bay by the seal it gets twisted into something different, creating the curse of the undead. Basically it is yet another example of the decay that Gwyn's attempt to keep the fire burning caused. He refused to let the natural cycle of dark happen and kept the fire burning beyond what was good for the world, slowly destroying the very fabric of reality. Similarly the curse of the undead brought on by the Seal of Fire trying to keep the dark humanity in check results in people who no longer die, but instead decay and turn hollow. At least that is my two cents.

[@stefvanroey8191]

I assume that they were sent to find kindling. The undead curde appears to be an epidemic sometimes but a creation at other instances

[@Gamespud94]

@@TheTriforceDragon This makes sense and is quite poetic. Just as Gwyn cursed the world by prolonging the life of the Age of Fire beyond it's natural point of "death" so too is mankind doomed to be prolonged past death.

[@Sterneneisen]

Looks like Lore's back on the menu, boys!

[@chrisskidmore1361]

Love LOTR

[@herbthompson8937]

Great!!

[@dingar7191]

oshit I was about to go to bed thank you, Ashen Hollow.

[@EldenLord.]

The perfect way to finally clear things up about Lloyd and Velka etc. would be a Dark Souls prequel. I knew Miyazaki did say DS3 was the last but I still have high hopes for a prequel. It would be perfect to finalize the series.

[@miguelruiz3078]

The series is not over, they're just taking a rest.

[@kalzero3319]

Too much money to be made for it to be over. Think of it like an annoying hiatus.

[@jonnymario771]

Holy shit, the thing I want the most is a Dark Souls 0. The war against the dragons, foundation of the societies, being able to choose your side( Witches, Knights, Gravelord servants, humans.) and defeating diferent bosses based on your choices.

[@swordierre9341]

Thank you for making this video. Personally i believe allfather lloyd is a rabbit hole of lore that goes deeper than most people would expect. More people need to be talking about him. I think allfather lloyd's white halo is representative of the rim of white around humanity. I believe he was somehow responsible for giving the dark soul its white rim/halo. If we think about humanity as in 2 parts, the dark within the humanity, and the white rim (presumably soul) that contains/shackles the dark and keeps it tamed, then a lot of things start to make sense. It gives a concrete explanaiton of what "Hallowing" is, the dark of humanity seeping out leaving only the soul. The description of the dark sigil pretty much confirms this. "A black gaping hole in the flesh that resembles the brand of an Undead. The darkness of humanity seeps from this bottomless pitch-back hole, the gap filled by the accumulation of the curse. This Dark Sigil will never heal, but there is a tale told of a Fire Keeper who returned from the Abyss, and brought great comfort to a bearer of the curse." Sigils are holes that are poked into our soul (symbolized by flesh) and lets the dark seep out, giving us the shriveled "hollow" appearance. This is symbolized by the sword of avowal as well (a sword stabbing a circle) It also lines up with dark souls 1, we need humanity to restore our human appearance. I think this can give us an insight of what the angelic faith, which seem linked to the faith of londor, wants. They embrace hollowing, seeping all our dark out until all that is left is the "heavenly" "halo" of soul given to them by Allfather Lloyd. which manifests as an angel. So why do they want the flame to fade. The problem is humanity has 2 shackles. One is the soul(as explained before), but gwyn gave us another ring/shackle of fire, the dark sign, its the one that makes us undead and drawn to bonfires. It was created at least partially to seal the dark within humanity. Humanity cannot ascend to anglehood unless unless we get rid of this shackle of fire as well. The only way to do this is to let the flames fade. The end goal is that the flames fade and all that is left is humanity, the age of man. Humanity would be free to cleanse themselves of their dark, via sigils, and go hollow, until all that is left is the rim of soul originally given to them by lloyd, which manifests as an angel. Sure all the expunged dark will lead to the abyss and the age of the deep sea, foretold by aldrich, but we'll all be angels so who cares. Or its also possible, that the role of the lord of dark, is the contain all of the dark within him while the rest of the humans go hollow and turn to angles, ecpaining what frampt meant by you inheriting the dark soul. but this theory has some problems. Namely, why would they give you sigils if your role is to contain the dark. Im still a bit confused what the role of the dark lord exactly is (conceptually speaking), other than just ruling over the hollows. But anyway, point is, the hollows turn to angles. What happens next, i theorize the angles will evolve to dragons, first evolving to an angelic dragon like seath and ocerios(which share a lot of similarities to angles)(the soul crystallizes to twinkling titanite) before evolving to the stone everlasting dragons(twinkling titanite turns into dragon scales) and joining the ranks of those who followed the path of the dragon(which basically skipped to everlasting dragon stage by transcending both soul and dark). The sea of dark will feed the young birch trees left behind by the hollows and they will grow to the archtrees. If you require evidence for any part of this theory, please ask, i have a lot more supporting evidence.

[@Francesco_Cubino]

greetthemoth I like this theory

[@alex_2293]

This is really interesting and i agree with your theory. Especially that white line that covers our humanity. It acts as a safe, containing all of our humanity inplace and if somehow it gets damaged, our humanity can roam freely thus spreading the abyss The Dark Lord's importance is interesting as well. He indeed acts as a vessel of humanity after the end of the Age of Fire. He could contain all the humanity that broke free in the Age of Men , thus cleansing in a way everyone's soul. But if all humanity is taken from a person , then what remains inside his soul? He loses the only thing that makes him human. His soul will be empty and so i believe it could be refilled with something else. Not with humanity this time , but perhaps with something even better. Something that doesn't spread the abyss . A new type of soul? Damn this is all fascinating.

[@-v0n-]

To go in your way, maybe the role of the dark lord is exactly what we see in the end of DS3: Steal the flame. So it consumes you instead of all humanity. So other can let their darkness go and ascend to angels, while you, as a lord, is damned to hold the flame forever and will never know ascencion (because it will consume your darkness). In a way, a true Lord has the burden to take the pain of his people for himself. That's maybe the reason why Vendrick was not considered as a true monarch! Because he wasn't ready to sacrifice himself for his people sake. The only thing I disagree with is the idea of "Lloyd gave the rim of soul to men". I think this is Gwyn doing, even if not what he expected. He sealed the men with his ring of flame, leading to the curse (he introduced divine into profane to enslave them). But this ring of flame is a shard of his power, of the light soul. I think that this is something that Lloyd realised later on and tried to exploit, reason why he created the way of white and gave it the "ring" symbol. It represents the curse of men as the curse of light (but also their path to redemption, the "way of the light"). I can't even figure out if being the angel is really what pilgrims want in the first place. Maybe the whole point of "being an angel" is to actually free yourself from your light! What pilgrim have on their back is actually something that drink their darkness through sigils to leave only their light. Their light turn into angels while their darkness stay as the creature we see in the ringed city (which could be considered as a newborn?). Actually, if you think about it, the angel has no real consciousness, it is guided by that "body". It is immortal, because the flame is still up, but if you kill their darkness (their body) the angel dies. Maybe the whole point about stealing the flame as a dark lord is to actually "free" all those pilgrims from their light. They are "purged" from it, and become humans again, while you has a dark lord, has to carry all this light within you at the point of consuming your darkness. You take the curse of every men on you, so they are free, while you become enchained to your duty forever. You doom yourself in fact, for the sake of your people. But this also mean something interesting, as now they don't need to follow any ancients gods, they are not bound to them by the curse. You became their divinity, and they follow you because they trust you rather than fear you (you're a savior). It's maybe what we could call the transition from polytheism to monotheism. Lost faith into old gods, the son of the divine rise between men and take all their sin on his shoulder so they can be free (let's also remember that the first sin was the linking of the flame, which also mean that when you steal the first flame, you also take on you the sin of the ancient Gods, which is a pure selfless act). And so they prey this only God for his sacrifice, because they love him, while they were praying ancient Gods to avoid their wrath (avoid famine, avoid war, avoid winter, avoid flood, avoid quake, etc..) But it also mean that all humans renounce to their part of divinity: Their immortality, but also their magic (because it's actually born from souls!). And maybe when you'll die, you'll become your "light", at the side of your Lord and as a part of him (you are the everything, in a way, and this could be a conception of heaven). This was maybe Lloyd goal, in fact. And this is why he got forgotten (not sure Gwyn and other gods really liked the idea, but they could not really officialy say he was a betrayer because exposing the reason of the betrayal would have turn every men against them).

[@swordierre9341]

@@-v0n- I believe human souls were given by allfather lloyd. The ring of fire around humanity isnt soul, its the dark sign, given to us by gwyn to contain the dark with man. "Malformed black armor of the Ringed Knights. The armor of early men was forged in the Abyss, and betrays a smidgen of life. For this reason the gods cast a seal of fire upon such armor, and those who possessed them." - Ringed Knight Armor I think the ringed knight armor is a perfat allegory. They were forged from the abyss (humanity was made of dark), but they still betrayed a smidgen of life (had the thin white soul, given to them by lloyd). That wasnt enough to contain their dark, so gwyn gave them the dark sign to make sure the abyss didnt spread. Notice how human souls are a different color and texture than the soul of lords, lord souls are firey golds and yellows, while the human souls are a gaseous cloudy white. The same white and gassous apearence that we only see emit from lloyds talismans. The last piece of evidence is the mimic, via the paradigm of understanding humanity ive previously presented: soul covers and shackles dark. What if the mimic as an allegory for humanity. The Chest is like the soul, which from the outside looks passive, but hidding inside it is a dark, monstrous and greedy creature. The lloyds talisman has the peculiar ability to seal mimics back to a docile and closed state. I belive this represents the way lloyd shackled humanity.

[@-v0n-]

@@swordierre9341 Yes, but I actually didn't take it this way. The abyss has to power to turn alive inanimated things, this is why it "betrays a smidgen of life". Just like the dragon slayer armor, which turned back to life, animated by the feelings of his previous owner (while still empty). This is why Gwyn fear it so much, because it is something that had no soul, but was still able to be alive, to spread. Souls creatures cannot live without, well, a soul. While abyssal creatures can. And this is also why it can corrupt everything, the world included. For the mimic, I've always seen it on the other way as well. The symbol of avarice is actully a cursed as well, brand upon a clan for their sin. And actually, it is even stated to be an ancient god (symbol of avarice description from DS1). I've always considered that the talsiman was only apeasing their curse, so the monster become less aggressive. As it actually cuts estus regeneration (estus which is linked to fire), I though this was a way to temporaly "enlighten the burden of the curse" by blocking the link of the undead to their fire (their "light" part, their "soul" part). The curse of the mimics is for their greed, their greed of souls, so it might simply appease their thirst of soul, reason why they become so peacefull. For the white aura, an other thing that make me thinks it is from their fire seal, is the fire keeper soul. They are told to be "manifestation of their bonfire", and their soul is pure white with no darkness. While still being filled with an infinite amount of humanity. I think that the fire simply turn the humanity (dark at first) into white (light) by forming a shell around it. In fact, the curse contain the darkness of men by turning it into soul, into light. The dark sigils make holes in the "curse", and let the darkness spread instead of being "consumed" into soul. Let's also remember that humanity is at start a kind of fuel to the fire. I think that the more the humanity is consumed, the more it turns white, because the closer you get from the fire (and maybe the closer you get from ashes?) and so the greater become the shell (the light). And the fire keeper soul from DS3 that accepted the dark sigil, is actually grey because the sigil allow the inner humanity (the dark) to spread again through the shell (but as she is bound to the flame, it only turns grey as her ight part is much bigger than a simple human one). And some become burn by flame (the weaker ones) because their inner dark is not strong enought to sustain the flame, the same way that the undeads become hollow because they have not enought humanity remaining (their will) to sustain their curse. On an other hand, when it goes wild, so closer from its primmal state, it turns much darker because your are closer from the dark, and the curse is not working anymore (it fails to contain your darkness) just like Manus soul (you can see the little shard of humanity in its center, but the dark is pouring through it). And so, you get more bestial because your will is unrestrained. This way, the access to the angelic form would be to separate the light (the curse) from the humanity (the dark inside). The ring of the way of white could then represent this, the pure light of the curse, with no humanity within, no darkness. Which could be Lloyd goal. He didn't gave human this light, it would be gwyn's doing by cursing men with fire, but he would use it to ascend them and free them from the curse: Their ligh turn into angels, while their flesh, their humanity, remain purely dark and free. Even if I disagree with you, I really like your point of view! It's very cool to discuss of this with someone who has a different opinion on the subject!

[@perrytran9504]

Have you thought about possible connections between the Angels of DS3 (and by extension Londor) to Darklurker from DS2? The latter is such an anomaly as he lives in the Abyss yet has a light soul, but your proposition about Lloyd turning away from the Way of White to instead meddle with Londor does open the idea that light and dark are not mutually exclusive. If Lloyd was an angel, perhaps Darklurker was a prototypical version of the Londor angels we see everywhere in the Dreg Heap (or less likely a shard/remnant of Lloyd himself, though I'm a bit doubtful as his attacks do not use light.) Some other miscellaneous tidbits I think could lead somewhere: * Darkdiver Grandahl who can open portals to the Abyss (and by extension Darklurker) can teach Profound Still (essentially Vow of Silence.) As discussed in item descriptions and another one of your videos, this spell eventually became connected to the Sable Church of Londor. You already made one proposition about Velka being a "mother" of the founding sisters, so what if Grandahl also played a role in influencing what eventually became the Sable Church? Maybe he was a "father" of sorts (alongside Velka as either a "mother" or even "grandmother" who first passed her teachings to him?) * Grandahl's covenant is literally called the Pilgrims of Dark. Another thing that could suggest he had something to do with what eventually became Londor. Maybe the Pilgrims we see in DS3 were those who passed his trials and now seek to become Angels like the Darklurker. * Opening a portal to the Abyss requires consuming a human effigy (which otherwise could be used to stave off hollowing.) I always found it odd that Grandahl claims to need one to open a portal if those are presumably how he moves between his three locations. Maybe it was in his interest to steal them from clueless undead to set them further on the path to hollowing - at which point the proposition of joining a church for hollows would be awfully convenient. * While it'd still be unclear when and where Lloyd could come in to push his ideas of becoming angels onto Londor, I'd like to imagine that after he was abandoned by the Way of White he consulted with Grandahl to set up a prototype of the Londor church/Ponzi scheme - Grandahl would set up his sketchy challenge for undead travellers to "steal" their humanities/effigies while exposing them to the Abyss, Lloyd would create or pose the final (and difficult) test of the angelic being Darklurker, and somewhere they convince the successful Pilgrims of Dark that they should strive to mimic the form of Darklurker (either to stave off this excess dark they've exposed themselves to or as a way to embrace it while defiling a once "light" image.) * Lastly, a few odd details which while otherwise appear to make no sense might have some relation - the only thing we can transpose from Darklurker's soul is Lifedrain Patch, which itself reveals very little in its description. However, it is very similar to Pestilent Mist from DS3, a top secret sorcery developed by the Dragon School which is functionally a much more potent Lifedrain Patch, and it has a tattered scroll like the other dark sorceries. This can be taught to us by Orbeck, though he only reveals it once we keep good on our promise of sharing a scroll with him. Notice how Yuria strangely asks us to kill Orbeck even though he doesn't outwardly show any desire to become Lord of Hollows (he''s not even a true sorcerer as he uses weak spells and reveals in later dialogue he was just a lowly spook.) My guess? The Vinheim sorcerers who developed Pestilent Mist were former Pilgrims of Dark who abandoned the Covenant, only joining it temporarily as a means of reliably exploring and studying the Abyss. Assuming the connection between Londor and the original Pilgrims of Dark is valid, what if Yuria just wants Orbeck out of the way because she thinks he knows too much about the Dark for possessing Pestilent Mist? He probably is genuinely innocent, but you can imagine that Yuria either didn't know better or just doesn't want to risk the Ashen One learning too much either.

[@soulstarved4116]

I believe Lloyd is comparable to the Christian God, he's not an actual physical person rather he's an all omnipotent being. It's common in history to have kings claim that they are relatives of gods to gain divine right to rule. Which is why Gwyn claims to be the grandson of Lloyd even though Gwyn is literally one of the first beings to come from the Flame and therefore can not have a grandfather. The Way of White is a religion in the belief of Lloyd created the flame. That's what Allfather means, father to all, creator of everthing, which in Dark Souls case is the First Flame. It's a good nonexplanitory explanation for how the Flame came to be similar to how many religions have they're gods vaguely creating the world or people. The nonbelievers have always been in every religion. Over time the strength of religion fades, so Lloyd's influence will certainly fade as well. What's intresting is that most religions have a end game, when faith is at its low, God will let the worthy ascend and damn the rest. This is what we're seeing in Dark Souls 3, its Judgment Day, the final hour the flame has faded and the world will die. Now is Lloyd real or fake, who knows theres no proof, its whether you choose to believe or not, but I think the Angel's are the closest thing to proof you can get to say Lloyd is an actual god in Dark Souls.

[@theroguerider]

I always thought it was interesting that it’s a “rusty old gold coin” considering that gold is a non-reactive metal. Gold doesn’t rust or tarnish over time, no matter how long the time. I wonder if that means something or if the developers just didn’t know that fact.

[@takezokimura2571]

It could mean that the "Gold coin" is not actually made of gold, hence why it can rust and has no actual value. It could also be the reason why the rich man lost his fortune, because it was revealed that the gold coins he had were fake. By the way, the DS2 version of the rusted coin states: "The coin is engraved with the image of a god that was worshipped in ancient times, but no one knows its true origin."" If the Lloyd theory is true, it makes sense that the gold coin is fake. It would represent how Lloyd is a fraud, and not an actual deity, much less a relative of Gwyn. The fact that the rusted coins also boosts luck is further proof that Lloyd was related to the curse, because in DS3 hollow weapons get stronger with luck. It is important to note that hollow gems, and not dark gems or deep gems, get stronger with luck. AND there's also the fact that the angels in the DLC can cause curses with what at first look like healing spells

[@gooey4347]

The coin is likely not made of actual gold; over time it turned out to be a fraud just like Lloyd himself. Some neat narrative symmetry there.

[@spikedude73]

Appreciate this video my guy. So many channels have moved on from this game and it's awesome to see you still digging out gems from this endless mine. Great video.

[@domoloveroquinn5257]

Been waiting for this fellow unkindled. Cheers!

[@leonardoa5201]

Very interesting thoughts and a well-made video! Never heard the idea about Lloyd being an angel before but you provided some good points for it. Thanks for making this! Good to see Dark Souls Lore being discussed in 2020.

[@00Boogie]

What if Lloyd's Undead hunts were a ploy to stop the Chosen Undead from linking the fire? The humans only know what they're told and all sorts of superstition could be sown among them so they work at cross purposes.

[@guilhermecontiero96]

BY THE LORE it's Always good to relax seeing your vídeos man , it Always helps with my insônia(sleeping problems)

[@orc001]

Insomnia

[@PJSO]

I use both Ashen H and Vaativadiya for my insomnia.

[@Notoromus]

Lloyd was Gwyn's uncle, per the White Seance Ring of DS1. He was a member of the old royal family, a Lord, not an Angel. That's why he wanted to prolong the age of fire. That's all.

[@nariopolus]

-Golden Armor -Executioner -FATTY! COINCIDENCE? I think not!

[@myamdane6895]

Hey Ashen, great video as always! I never knew how deep the lore went with the angels, thanks for the video ;)

[@TheAshenHollow]

Thank ya, kindly! =D

[@JikuAraiguma]

This is rather compelling, but I find there to be one issue. If the Pilgrims of Londor were followers of the angelic faith, why is it that we see Yoel and uh... the assassin who's name escapes me, as followers of the Sable Church of Londor, founded by Kathe?

[@TheAshenHollow]

Because their ideals aligned, and potentially could be different branches of the same church/faith. Especially if we consider Lloyd bitter about being forgotten by the WoW.

[@strawhatshinigami9190]

@@TheAshenHollow I actually thought of this before .

[@mistuhjangles1384]

what if the shell chained to the pilgrims covers their wings? or keeps their wings from fully forming? until the pilgrimage is done? maybe?

[@leilavalens3617]

Praise the Sun! \[T]/ You've finally made this video! I still remember when I asked you to make a video on Gertrude and the Angels, and now it's here. Hooray and thank you.

[@OlinCaprison]

i always thought those statues around lothric were oceiros before he was fully a weird dragon

[@TheAshenHollow]

The other older man statue is more kingly, and likely depicts Ocerios!

[@EredinLore]

I took the statues at the Cathedral of the deep to be Aldrich, devouring the previous faith

[@CJusticeHappen21]

What if Rosaria created the Angels by transforming her followers into the appearance of Angels? If Gwynevere is actually Rosaria, this would also explain the ties between the Princess of Sunlight and the Angelic Faith.

[@darkmoonmiracle]

Is it a statute of a transformation, or is it a statute of an angel falling from grace, looking at their hands in disbelief as their heavenly form leaves from them? Also, I believe Gael to have a lot of ties to the way of white, possibly being a high ranking member in the clergy at some point, or having been granted the corona due to his devotion to Lloyd. He is old. Has probably seen the rise AND fall of Lloyd. Maybe he was Lloyd... maybe he knows the Truth, and you see the true and twisted nature of the ‘Angels’ as he shepherds you through the end of the world. Maybe he had to fall from grace and cease to be worshipped because he discovered the Truth and the others were too blinded by their faith to see it.

[@headecas]

Ds3 lore vid? This day and age? From ashen hollow? Less go

[@fierygamingzilla69]

In dark souls three the Loyd's tailsman is now just called undead hunter charms showing the decline of loyds influence

[@imdefinitelynotjesus]

My itch for dark souls lore has gone on for way too long, thank the ashen hollow there’s a fix when i needed it... look forward to more work from you whatever it may be my good sir.

[@jackdavenport4303]

An Ashen Hollow video where it wasn't Velka? It's good to see you back man, can't wait for more!

[@Billybob-en1mk]

All father Loyd, the founder of the way of white, wants the fire linked while the angelic faith clearly doesnt.

[@TheAshenHollow]

Yeah, nah, yeah. I go over that in the video.

[@Billybob-en1mk]

@@TheAshenHollow ye I wrote that before actually watching, sry. I see what your going for in the video, but I see just connections and not really a solid "all father loyde changed his mind" or even "all father loyde was overthrown in his own church". Not saying bad video, but deffenitly a head scratcher on ok what does it all mean?

[@swordierre9341]

This isnt necessarily true. The way of white wants the fire linked, that doesn't mean allfather lloyd does. Remmeber they no longer follow lloyd. Perhaps they stopped believing in him and started calling him a fraud after their interests diverged.

[@Billybob-en1mk]

@@swordierre9341 during the events of ds1 they most certantly did. Ds2 maybe. But they definetly threw him in the trash by ds3 with the cathedral of the deep and item descriptions

[@swordierre9341]

@@Billybob-en1mk Not just the cathdreal of the deep, eygon of carim.

[@infinite_ammo]

4 years late but I think you're not addressing an important piece of the puzzle: The primodial serpent statues in Lothric Castle have angel wings and the winged knights helmets resemble a crude depiction of a primodial serpent face. I believe it's true that Lloyd is forgotten by the time DS3 takes place and the primordial serpents are the ones posing as angels to reignite faith in the way of white for their own schemes. Gertrude was visited by a primordial serpent.

[@seeyah9030]

Great video, enjoyed your thought and insight, as well as your perspective of Gertrud and her ties to lothric

[@lorenzo4637]

Even *if* all of our speculation turns out to be wrong, I feel that it’s in the spirit of the Souls series to keep trying to put the puzzle pieces together. It’s part of why we love this game so much, after all

[@TheAshenHollow]

I completely agree! =]

[@Makkovar]

HOLY SHIT DUDE YOU'RE ALIVE KZbin just randomly sent me a DS3 lore video in 2020 like holy shit

[@kalzero3319]

I'm pretty sure the "angels" are cut content. There are some cut content diggers that say Kaathe was to make an appearance as the final boss. He was to be sporting wings this time around.

[@ericbrown9825]

6:36 I'm thinking the Lothric family was from somewhere 'round Kansas, if you get my drift

[@Daniel_Lancelin]

_Sweet home Anor Londo_

[@ericbrown9825]

@@Daniel_Lancelin where the skies are so grey

[@ericbrown9825]

@Gwapa snuna Mate, it's a joke. Also, as a Republican, I dislike Cali and NY just as much as anyone sane does

[@FlekinsCirculares]

That last clip makes me realise that Gertude's Cage looks similar to a Crown. As she is belive to be a child of the Queen of Lothric.

[@FlekinsCirculares]

And "Crown" writes and reads similar to "Crow". Gertrude=Velka confirmed.

[@istolethispfpfromreddit]

Not a bad theory at all, very well made, great job with this video. I'm really impressed that Vaati didn't mention these facts in his angel video

[@regisemiel3485]

No Velka mentioned in this video.. outstanding

[@federicoleonora9525]

I'm confused about something. You say that Lloyd manifested himself in front of Gertrude and thus the Angelic Faith was born, and I get that. What I don't get is how the Angelic Faith of Gertrude links in with Londor, its pilgrims, and their Sable Church. Watched the video twice but I still don't get it. Could you elaborate please?

[@TheAshenHollow]

The biggest connection is the Londor Pilgrims becoming the larvae that controls the Angels. Using Getrude specially was likely more of a smokescreen and meant as an insult to Lothric.

[@TheAshenHollow]

@@jacobhoover1654 you can see the larvae literally coming out of a dead Londor Pilgrim on the ground below it.

[@TheAshenHollow]

@@jacobhoover1654 it's in the video, look for it. Or go in game to the Dreg Heap, like how I said in the video. Or Google a picture even.

[@Graff-z4x]

Ah the way of white, back in the day when hunting the undead was the popular thing to do. I think Allfather Lloyd was a bit a reactionary god who saw the threat or at least the distaste of humanity early on, perhaps too early, and was leading the charge to eradicate/enslave humanity during the Age of Fire proper. When Gwyn made his deal with the pygmies he could no longer support this process. While I'm not sure if he directly opposed his uncle, or if it was through Velka's influence in Carim, and Gwyn's lack of support, that humanity was able to ostracism and overturn this process. It's clear the way of white used humans to corral humans tho. I believe Gael may have even been an early example of human executioner, part of the early way of white. Part of me for a long time believed Gael was Allfather Lloyd himself, but I'll just be happy to mention the combination of his clothes, weapon, and spells, placing him at an early stage of the way of white; furthermore, I see it as entirely plausible that as an executioner of his own, at some point turned against his masters. This would certainly classify Gael as unwanted and place him in the painting fast. If this were the case then the painting, and ariamis, would be placed very early on in time. He has unique uhh time-displacement abilities that I would arguably link him to the Forlorn of DS2 but not to stray too far off topic, these abilities could also link him to the way of white and early "art of warping between bonfires" techniques (consider the early miracle "homeward"). Moreover, you can summon him for Friede, whether or not you are embered. He does not appear until the 2nd phase, and doesn't appear to have a health bar during this fight, it seems this is either a mistake or he is really really determined to help you kill her lol, or... perhaps he is somehow there and not there at all. You can see his projections throughout dreg heap. Lastly, during his boss fight, when he teleports he actually has a summon sign under him and you see the same visual affect as if summoning him, so he's actually forcing his summoning as a form of teleportation to get closer to you. He also uses the Way of White Corona which seems to be a very early way of white spell, it does very little damage and is all around a pretty bad spell which indicates early invention; however, the way Gael wields it indicates a high level of mastery, having used it for a very very long time. Final statement in yet another sloppy thesis, the DS1 Gold Coin talks about a halo on All-father lloyd's head, another way to percieve a halo is as a corona. In fact another meaning for Corona, is Crown.

[@samlee7805]

Catarina confirmed as worshipers and followers of the way of white. Well done.

[@shadowxps]

The Pilgrims bear a deep resemblance to the cleric set due to both covering their backs as if to prevent something from escaping through their backs. If we’re linking the pilgrims to Loyd then he is probably linked to the cleric set and even further linked to the hollow clerics found in the ringed city. 🤔 Blue is a fairly distinct and uncommon color in Dark Souls. The cleric sets description specifically associates blue with being a cleric. The knights of the angelic faction wear none other than blue as well. Some of these knights bear red eyes which are indicative of corruption from the abyss. I think there’s a pretty good case for the angelic faith being linked to Londor and the Ringed City. Seems they’re ultimately part of a hollow agenda trying to get an unkindled containing 8 dark sigils as close to the first flame as possible. People also postulate that Kaathe was maybe the scholar that led Lothric away from the linking of the fire. Kaathe is tied to Londor and the usurpation of the fire. We’re tying the angelic faith the Loyd and to the pilgrims/Londor. We see statues of a serpent throughout Lothric depicted with angel wings. Originally I believed this statue was of Frampt as he maybe taught Lothric to uphold the linking of the fire. Now that we are linking angels to Londor though I think these statues are probably of Kaathe. Cut content and the QA leak all but confirm that this is Kaathe and he is responsible for the Angelic faith and the Prince's abandoning linking the fire.

[@mirandag7668]

Historically, there were many different schisms within the Christian religion over time. Early church schisms defined much of what was to come in terms of different brands of Christianity. I wouldn't be surprised if the Angelic Faith did indeed begin as a splinter from the Way of White and eventually became it's adversary in Lothric. The idea that Allfather Lloyd started this splinter faith seems pretty ingenious as this sort of thing did happen IRL (well, sans dark souls gods and stuff lmao)

[@Madking9762]

Man it's been too long, where you been. Thanks for the new vid

[@killjoy_5309]

Keep up the good work man.

[@dominickbabington8085]

Instead of Dark Souls 4. We should get a Dark Souls 3 Pt. 2 with more enemies and invaders at once. Just an absolute madhouse. With more ambiguous and longer item descriptions too.

[@_EvilJelly]

Darklurker anyone? ...no?

[@erikenn]

Lloyd betrayed Gwyn. Gwyn sacrificed himself to perpetuate the flame saving his people. He did so after he made a deal with the pygmies gifting them their own city and looked over by his Daughter. Telling his people to "shepherd" the humans... As in protect which was warped by Lloyd when the fire began to fade again and Lloyd was now next up to throw himself on the fire since the First Born left for the dragons. Lloyd twisted words and manipulated the way of white to then "shepherd" the humans, to the fire. Lloyd wanted to save his own ass and power.

[@sethierot7067]

Nice idea, i enjoy Dark Souls Lore so many theory's :p

[@vasylpark2149]

This what I subscribble for.

[@shaddykack]

How long until the first mention of Velka

[@enigmaplays1158]

Missed these type videos soooo much

[@austinmaheu4248]

Oh thank the Darkmoon; I love Vaati, but this will always be my favorite lore channel

[@ezioc.1998]

Please consider DOING A VIDEO on the war between the Darkmoon and Aldrich Faithful!!!

[@willriseabove6858]

I haven't seen a video on this but when you first play the the ringed city a pilgrim appears and asks you a question ( i believe I got it wrong so he stopped appearing) seems like its a minor story element though.

[@darkmystic7764]

Mmmmmmm this was just pure sugar straight into the soul. Thank you

[@Gergenhine]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but is it possible that Rosaria's man-grubs are actually the things that develop into the angels? Seems to be some connection there.....

[@DeusSolAstraInvictus]

Awesome vid man!!! I’m still upset that u can’t get the winged knight armor with those awesome wings

[@aaronwinrock8164]

I absolutely love these videos.

[@TheAshenHollow]

Thanks, friend! =D

[@tavastian3288]

Gold doesnt rust, so the gold coin isnt actually made of gold, but some other metal that reacts with oxygen. This means that even the coins are as fake as Lloyd himself

[@TheAshenHollow]

Ah, good point! =D

[@MidBoss2998]

Are we ignoring the part where it says that Lloyd is Gwyn's uncle?

[@ToddHimself]

What about Darklurker? That boss is very angelic.

[@DarkBloodSouls]

So... Its not velka?

[@nobodyneverknows]

There is something that really disturbes me about the diction of this guy, cant quite figure what tho

[@deathrattles214]

Damn I’ve missed DS lore videos.

[@Bluecho4]

"...the gold coin is still around, albeit a bit rusted..." Which is weird, given that gold does not rust. Ever. Science fact.

[@TheAshenHollow]

That's what it's called in the game. Which is weird cause you want me to not call items by their in-game name. Not sure if you've noticed but the game was written by fantasy writers and not scientists. Just fyi. =]

[@Bluecho4]

@@TheAshenHollow Of course I know it's an item in the game. I was making a joke.

[@danielwheels9529]

Niceeeeee video😍😍😍

[@davidrw67]

What about liloyd In ds2

[@jamesroberts5163]

What about the invader in the catacombs in dark souls 1.

[@slurwangatang1905]

But why does the crow in the old hunters dlc drop a rune ?

[@donaldreddish9364]

The audio on this is way too quiet I turn the volume all the way up and could still barely hear

[@TheAshenHollow]

Shit. I moved my desk into my living room which causes way too much reverb, I guess the program I used to correct that made it too quiet. O_o I'll try to get it better next time!

[@donaldreddish9364]

@@TheAshenHollow Awesome! I look forward to it. You have amazing videos and I am a huge fan of souls lore. Please keep up on the videos and thank you for replying.

[@Maciejk1221]

Not reading the description of rusted coin from ds2.

[@germ4bass]

But gold can't rust.

[@yellow_scratch]

A surprise to be sure

[@metalskirmish]

Gold can rust???

[@Knights_of_the_Nine]

Isnt that boss in DS2 angelic? The one in this abyss behind Richard and Havel.

[@Murphio25]

It certainly looks the part doesn't it? I'm not sure, it's title as Darklurker could mean it simply inhabits the dark, there are clues to the contrary. For example: It's weak to lightning and strangely fire. To me that alone is enough that it's a being of the Dark. I suspect that it could be a reference to the four kings, as they were humans that were changing into something else through the corruption of the Dark. No evidence for it, but perhaps even one of the four kings themselves that the Chosen Undead could not kill for whatever reason. Maybe it was hiding, hence "Darklurker" but again, there isn't much evidence for this.

[@Stoicbirch]

The coin comment was honestly really stupid. It's literally just talking about how it raises your item discovery, and that person was foolish enough to presume that their luck would extend and repeatedly double what they had. It was not describing ANYTHING about the coin other than its use in game... this is why I keep everything you say as "entirely speculation" unless it's explicitly stated in an item. (Oh and that whole velka shennanigan.)

[@TheAshenHollow]

This comment is honestly really stupid. Item descriptions are more than just an explanation of what the item does. If you haven't learned that yet, how are you even interested in Dark Souls?

[@vitorvena]

As i always say, its better to have a louder audio than a low one... Plz Amp Up the Audio next vid... or atleast your voice.

[@FaithfulFumoFan23]

Allfather = Odin

[@christmasham4312]

More pls

[@MC-dt6zq]

What's the abv% of Estus?

[@falsebeliever8079]

GOLD DOES NOT RUST

[@sad_xpdr_unit]

Lloyd is a fallen angel? *Way of White is the Church of Satan confirmed*

[@TheAshenHollow]

Ooof!

[@chapersdm3342]

I bet it was Velka!..😉🙄

[@blooBerry371]

Yeah dark souls 3 LORE😁😁

[@bias2784]

what

[@blooBerry371]

@@bias2784 what

[@TonyMetal]

Moar Dark Souls 3 plz

[@viktor_v-ughnda_vaudville_476]

Rusty gold coin....gold doesn’t rust...just like ds lore videos

[@KittensLeftFoot]

More! Gimme More!

[@yrazu05]

This video contradicts itself so profoundly that it works circles. So Loyd who supported the kindling of the fire is also responsible for Londor? Er ... no ... it seems that the civil war was brought due to the fact that the Angels... now that we know are pilgrims... supported the age of dark .. the age of men .. which is why they are seen in the Ringed City .. and the whole reason for the civil war in Lothric. This is supported by the fact that Kath statues or Serpent statues are seen throughout in the Archives .. as we know that the grand wizard/sorcerer who taught Prince Lothric was eventually influenced by them and the reason why Lothric gave up on kindling the fire. I like the lore of Dark Souls but it seems you're pulling strings from where you shouldn't.

[@yrazu05]

In fact you might say that that is why Gertrude was imprisoned in the Archives ... as maybe it was either a "safe heaven" for the Sorcerer to keep her in (with the excuse that she was "imprisoned") ... or maybe she was the one that started his intrigue into the Serpents tales after he spoke with her. Either way we know Gwyn wanted the pygmies to not bring the age of dark and spread bad word about them. Lloyd was only a tool for his plan to be kept in constant motion for countless centuries ...

[@yrazu05]

@@francescofrancescato1251 Lothric wasnt influenced by Kaathe but his teacher was ... passing that down to him. Which is why he didn't and doesn't want to kindle the first flame ... as it's all pointless ... to continue a cycle that at the end is fated to the pygmies

[@TheAshenHollow]

Perhaps complete the video? I go over the point you believe is a contradiction aeveral times. Also the serpent statue is far more likely to be Frampt, as he supports the Age of Fire and would have more ties to the Way of White than Kaathe.

[@TheAshenHollow]

@@francescofrancescato1251 well it's Dark Souls, so there's always going to be something we don't fully understand, most things even. That's just how it goes, and what makes theorizing about the lore fun.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

the angels are not part of the dark souls lore.they make no sense to me.

[@TheAshenHollow]

Just cause they don't make sense to you, doesn't mean they're not a part of the lore, lol. o_O

[@EldenLord.]

What about playing the game(s) first? Angels are all over the place even with evidence in DS3.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@TheAshenHollow i see you have a very agressive following

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@EldenLord. i gate keeper. i played all the games. ds1 establishes the lore.it doesnt mention the angels.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@jacobhoover1654 perhaps i havent played the game in a long time but: way of white= church of the deep, how is that proven? how did that happen and, according to your post, what are aldritch objectives in taking those actions? How does rosaria turn humans into man-grubs? and how do those turn into angels? How do angels, that dont exist in ds1 relevant to closing the trilogy or a continuation of the first "plot" ?

[@gwynbleidd10]

Not first, not second, but third! WOHOO! Ah well...

[@aldrixlevy228]

I love you man no homo.

[@siegwardofcatarina4778]

UwU