Darkest Dungeon and Ludonarrative - Hbomberguy

[@roryahconnolly]

"Weald" is Old English for "forest".

[@QooperG28]

Also "Wald" is german for forest, so maybe it evolved from that word. Who knows, I'm no Linguist.

[@samwallaceart288]

OOHHH. That's actually a pretty cool word.

[@terrybogard8734]

damn, that's wild

[@4thepeople100]

also similar to wold. which is a large area of uncultivated land, so could be a forest or could be a moor or something.

[@baitposter]

weald, wald, wild Cognates are fun

[@Dracinard]

You've uncovered the first part of the ludonarrative of Darkest Dungeon. I think it really comes alive in the second. That's when the grind sets in, and your favourite heroes die again and again, and hopelessness rises. You noticed how the mechanics force you to look at your heroes as collections of quirks and numbers - that's very deliberate. You might start looking at them as people, but as the endless misery grinds you down, they become nothing more than tools to an end. There is only one free resource in the game - people. And so they become mere meat to the grind, just as they are to the caretaker you play as. You feel his despair, the weight placed on his shoulders, and you go to the same extremes that he does, for the same reason - nothing matters but success. It's an unpleasant experience, but it's masterfully crafted ludonarrative.

[@michelsand5399]

Prof 1 well...that’s nice i guess. I guess i know how a warehouse manager feels.

[@extrathickbugs3193]

@@michelsand5399 oh no lmao

[@michelsand5399]

@@extrathickbugs3193 what?...ooh, yeah nevermind I just remembered that Amazon exists.

[@tuckerpeters1913]

So it's basically about the dehumanizing effects of capitalism.

[@thatguy9569]

@@tuckerpeters1913 Sort of? I think it's mostly the idea of sacrificing morality for ambition, like your ancestor before you. Which you could argue happens in capitalism, but I don't think that was intended to be the direct meaning.

[@jackcostello4046]

Big part of the darkest dungeon narrative to me is what resources are paid for, and which ones aren't. Upgrades cost heirlooms. Upgrading and maintaining your heroes costs gold. Supplies cost gold. Estates cost gold AND heirlooms. But new characters are completely free. Lives are cheap, easy to pickup, and easy to throw away.

[@xBINARYGODx]

Except they aren't - you have train and upgrade new recruits and giving them nice-enough gear. So you actually do care when they die (sometimes was is essentially for random reasons), and therefor life, in this game, is not cheap. If you could upgrade classes instead, so new recruits were just auto-leveled (so to speak), then they do not really matter, you can toss them away and just grab a new one. THEN life is cheap, which actually fits with the story and the character you are playing. Also, why is hunger handled the way it is? Many things the devs have said are bullshit and are more about making you have a 'bad' time (it seems), not for their claimed reasons. Remove the narrator, and this game never takes off.

[@elim9054]

@@xBINARYGODx Someone's salty because one too many runs went bad, methinks

[@approveddust8367]

BINARYGOD lives are cheap what they brought with them into the dungeon isn’t

[@miraqen7801]

And The Ancestor has like infinite antecedents... Oh and that you can rename them whatever you want and couldn't care less even if you rename them to "woman1" or "small peepee big stinky."

[@Pixie1001.]

idk, getting a wipe is annoyed because you lose all your rare items which are a pain to get, but power levelling new heroes back up using endgame equipment is easy and you can easily make back the money needed to equip them, whilst continuing to collect resources for your hamlet. I feel like heroes are easily the most expendable resource in the game.

[@electricmoth5702]

I think the reason quirks were very obvious and defined statistics as opposed to more fluid, realistic traits you have to learn about, is because the devs wanted everything to be very transparent considering how much RNG the game contains.

[@mkozachek]

The fate of Simpsons Hentai made me spit my Cheerios on my iPhone. Congratulations.

[@howdyhowdyhelga]

"real people don't have 'alcoholic' written into their soul" me: *looks at my family tree* me: y e a h

[@shepherdsgamingrun]

Ruin has come to that family...

[@NikolaiHildenyar]

*pats shoulder*

[@blitcut9712]

Alcoholism does have a genetic factor so.

[@jonasribeiro2001]

Irish? :D

[@squarepotatoes]

*me literally mid sip of rum n pepsi* Hmmm I feel this

[@doomcrab4271]

Damn fine RPG - I'm glad you recommended it. Also, I lost my shit when I rewatched this video and realised you renamed your entire party "Kevin."

[@peters9329]

"He is too stressed out and the Abbey is full. Send him back to work with a clown!"

[@westerno3449]

Idk, I legit cried when Reynauld died and had to take a break from the game for like 4 days. I don't get attached to ALL of my hired dungeoneers but the ones I do get attached to really stay in my heart. Also I keep thinking about Dismas being the only one left and it makes me sad. I guess it's all about choosing how much emotional energy to invest in your crew.

[@aaronjacobamadorsalazar1934]

Alex I can relate

[@youngdanielsun3707]

Rip brimou the badass bounty hunter

[@aguyunderabridge.8794]

Jack the Jester was my boi. Survived dozens of death's doors, actually passed the stress-test more than most including one when he lasted all the way until Darkest Dungeon level 2. Became Heroic and then bled out on his next turn before I could bandage or heal him. Rip Jack. Your last laughs of defiance were the fuel of our fire.

[@lordmoncef5494]

You are a very dramatic person aren t u

[@RoomRar]

Dismas died on my pley trew... but then he lived. I got the revive event. Never felt as happy

[@Ninjat126]

Fun fact about Dankest Dungeon (an entire year late). There's another way to play: Soulless corporate CEO. Sack anyone who develops negative traits after a dungeon crawl, and use all your money on your A-Team. Yeah. I mean, it's the most logical and efficient way to play! And all you have to do is discard your heroes if they become a liability.

[@blacksky755]

Wait are you saying that that is not the (only) good way to win in this game ?

[@YoshiTheyosh123]

Another soul, battered and broken, cast aside like a spent torch.

[@warnertesla8297]

Haha I played like that in the beginning. I let go of Reynauld for his bad quirks.

[@Eljacob0]

"You always know the right move to make if you know a little maths" Proceeds to try to stun a maggot (which have inherently high stun resist) with a low damage move that didn't kill it when you could've killed any 3 of them with crush. Nice.

[@cinderheart2720]

No one said he wasn't bullshitting his way through all of this.

[@Droffatsstafford]

@@cinderheart2720 No one said Harris was ever good at maths.

[@Blattella]

"if"

[@LocalCryptidGhostdoll]

Jokes on you hbomb, I absolutely have "Alcoholic" written into my soul

[@theodoreroosevelt3143]

Priestess "Simpsons Hentai" gets Nymphomania xD

[@joshhorley2116]

Please, I can only get so erect

[@Worn_Guide]

@@joshhorley2116 Who is also suppose to practice chastity.

[@jmckendry84]

Stupid sexy Flanders.

[@Serpillard]

Nymphomania is pretty much mandatory on a vestal.

[@RNJ142]

Mono means one, and rail means rail

[@OneEyeShadow]

I knew that joke seemed familiar

[@battyrae1398]

i had 2 really good moments playing this game. first was when my crusader with the flagellant quirk became masochistic, so i had to send him to go whip himself until he calmed down enough to only want to whip himself sometimes. second was when a jester i had been training up died, and i immediately got the town event to let me resurrect a hero. the clown lives! one i didnt experience personally but saw online was someone had both their vestal and their bounty hunter develop nymphomania after doing a dungeon. truly, these are the moments we all live for.

[@magicrainbowkitties1023]

Lol clown was like "Bitch you THOUGHT"

[@Mortarius17]

If you love Ludonarrative, get into This War of Mine. Probably the best use of ludonarrative to create a genuine anti-war message I've seen not just in video games but anywhere. It's a rare case of a war story that manages to sidestep the problem of war stories glorifying war no matter how hellishly war is presented.

[@Sam-iu8nb]

@Afqwa Arguably so. But I'd say it's still a good example of story telling through game-play mechanics.

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

To be fair you can play as a genocidal maniac and drown your sorrows in alcohol and cigarettes

[@MigattenoBlakae]

@@PancakemonsterFO4 but that was _always_ an option

[@SuperSecretAgentNein]

"...they'll go mad, harass their friends and die of a heart attack, like me in fast forward" Spit my coffee. Good show.

[@actionvolcano]

You think thats hard? Try naming every character after people in your own personal life and trying to picture it truly as them, makes decisions even harder

[@actionvolcano]

***** it adds so much fam

[@longlongtran]

maybe hbomb really cares about Simpsons hentai

[@Desi-qw9fc]

actionvolcano When I play RPGs I always play a female character and name her after my bestie so that I can regale her with stories about what she got up to. Like, "Hey, this Lord was being a jerk to you in front of your army, so you slapped him across his face with a glove so he'd have to duel you."

[@VectorSatyr]

XCom must be fun for you.

[@oberstul1941]

But I thought the game expressly tells you not to get attached and see this characters as a resource.

[@Plasmaggie]

the first time i played xcom: enemy unknown, i named my very good assault trooper “flash gordon” and gave him hot pink armor. he went on to be the best in the entire unit, and became a chosen psychic. in the end, he tore through enemy lines to flank and kill the final boss, then sacrificed his life to save the planet in the end cutscene. flash, aah-ah. he saved every one of us.

[@WarMomPT]

Really great video, pins down a lot of my feelings on these games with emergent, mechanics-driven stories. Even though you evidently name your own Darkest Dungeon characters, it's why I don't do the same, or don't change names, skin / hair colours or faces in XCOM; on one level I don't personally 'get' naming your characters after friends, family or twitter people when there's a high chance that they're going into the meat grinder (and that enhances it for some people!), but rather as those stories develop I get to know those people as the game gave them to me. I've sat down and learned to pronounce Papaloupodos because that was the name of my Greek sniper in Xcom who ended up becoming my number 1. The story didn't get its characters from me, the characters as they were born told me a story in mechanics.

[@lemonking3793]

The worst thing is when you have a character that can only go to the brothel, but is not allowed into the brothel.

[@liamwhite3362]

So, are we going to get a video about your problems with Bioware games? I'd consider myself a pretty big fan of them, but I'd still be interested in what you have to say, even if you feel the need to strike them down with religious fervor.

[@ivyssauro123]

Everytime I watch one of your videos I love you more, seriously. You just mentioned Papers, please and explained exactly why I love it, even thought I didn't knew I loved it for that reason.

[@belamylp7712]

the trap thing is actually one of my favorite little game design nuggets in the game! it's super awkward and finicky but in being that way it becomes tense and unpredictable like, you know, actually disarming a trap which makes you further emphasize with your characters and i think that's pretty neat!

[@ScottJohnHarrison]

I am glad that these game videos are your way to release your stress from having to crawl in the darkest dungeons of youtube and see the eldritch horrors of MRAs.

[@jillianharte4587]

I realize this is now nearly 2 years late, however the "death" of Darkest Dungeons, at least on a personal level came when I stopped playing the game as a fresh faced noob and "got gud." As so many people in the DD community like to say. Within a little bit of serious time investment and a bit of research the game becomes a spreadsheet. With the understanding of things like stall tactics the game becomes a slow grind. At a certain point with the right knowledge of abilities, "meta" and abuse of game mechanics you become unkillable. The characters are no longer chosen for anything but their sheer usefulness, you exit nearly every fight with max HP and 0 stress. It's just a time consuming, slow grind to inevitable victory with only occasional hiccups of pure unfavorable RNG. In a very real sense if you get good at Darkest Dungeons and understand the optimal way to exploit the game it stops being a game.

[@dagothkronk348]

There's a quote that goes: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

[@Bocktai5]

So you become a Business manager!

[@arthursimsa9005]

I'm 2 years too late for your own comment myselft, but I do relate a ton. I certainly agree with you that after having spent a few hours of actual research into the abilities and discussions on forums, you can become unstoppable and the game loses all of the trappings that HBomberguy found interesting. What I don't agree with is calling that grinding or the game stopping to be a game. I had a great time min-maxing my way to victory and not losing a single hero for 100+ weeks - probably because the fighting system is not as simple as HBguy made it to be? Overcoming tremendous odds is fun in and of itself after all, and whereas "noobs" all overrely on the Vestal, "power gaming" through the game allowed me to rely on characters that are difficult to master, like the Occultist or the Abomination. Finding the most efficient squads is great fun. I really don't think that's a instance of "players optimising the fun out of the game", but it sure is a different experience than the one of people/reviewers who spent 5 hours on the game or did not "get gud".

[@lydiabyron1801]

I really like how you view games as an introspective and thought-provoking medium as well as entertainment. It makes your videos so interesting and really engaging to watch

[@longlongtran]

"Simpsons hentai"

[@Beeyo176]

Imagine my surprise when I looked for a DD essay and hbomb himself was the first hit. Happy day

[@matthewmelange]

The Weald /ˈwiːld/ is an area in South East England situated between the parallel chalk escarpments of the North and the South Downs. It crosses the counties of Sussex, Hampshire, Kent and Surrey. It has three separate parts: the sandstone "High Weald" in the centre; the clay "Low Weald" periphery; and the Greensand Ridge, which stretches around the north and west of the Weald and includes its highest points. The Weald once was covered with forest, and its name, Old English in origin, signifies woodland. The term is still used today, as scattered farms and villages sometimes refer to the Weald in their names.

[@mrMickio]

Why dint you mention Dwarf Fortress when it comes to ludonarrative? A game where you can write an entire novel about the story of your fortress its that deep.

[@lumeaduvoi]

I keep hearing about Dwarf Fortress as this exceptionally deep game with nuance and compelling gameplay, but for the life of me I just can't find someone to explain the game clearly and concisely, and as such can't get into it. It's tutorials I've seen are all just let's plays that try to put the cart before the horse, using gameplay-first-ask-later teaching rather than introducing mechanics and the actual means of understanding how to approach the game first.

[@thumper8684]

@@lumeaduvoi It is a very intimidating game to get into, and even then you have to put some serious time in. The interface really is the worst possible. I don't have the dedication, but every time I go back I am surprised at how much I remember. The only place to start is the Wiki page. You really do have to play it to make sense of it. Rimworld is a Sci-Fi clone which is easier to get into. I never played the Sims but it seems to have a similar idea behind it. I also strongly recommend Crusader Kings. (It is *not* a strategy game. It is an incest simulator of the highest caliber.)

[@tomhill3248]

@@lumeaduvoi Kruggsmash. The man you're looking for is named Kruggsmash. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4XIgn2FeJZ7aZo here's his tutorial.

[@enzoaugusto1577]

@@thumper8684 are you a sseth fan, by any chance?

[@Normerra]

Excellent video! 'You're in charge of the management of the worst business in the world' describes Darkest Dungeon very well.

[@The1gamerdude]

I’d enjoy this being revisited (due to age and new games) about the sequel, and especially about dwarf fortress.

[@franconunez925]

One moment that will always stick with me, is when I was doing common hamlet managing and sending a unit to a psychiatric guard and for some reason THAT time I sit to read how I was eliminating the "calm" quirk... And then it hitted, probably more than 100 hours in I sat for the first time since I started getting a grasp on how to play to think about the implications of my managing, and then everything started flooding in a stream of memories of how I sent people to die to the crow to recover trinkets and kick them out without a farewell if they survive, how horrible the psychiatric guard must be when I send someone in every week that I could, how I let heroes die Just so I could recover the rewards of a big fight before leaving. On one hand I felt a scary feeling on how I was able to do things like that from my own free will without even processing it, accompanied with a sense of guilt over what I have done... And on the other hand I felt how cool and well played from the game it was for the natural learning curve of the game to lead to this moment and trusting the player to eventually let it sink in.

[@TheReck12]

You explained it so well, I was talking to my friends about this but didn't know how to put it into words. My favorite part of the game is the heros and how they develop their own quirks and roles over time despite having very little story behind them. I hope the next game expands on this idea.

[@noahyoung6524]

So basically ludonarrative is a fancy way of telling a story through mechanics

[@noahyoung6524]

Matias Alejandro interesting

[@thecerealkillr6648]

Your description of why you loved Darkest Dungeon (i.e. that the real game you're playing is HR manager and that it invests you into the stories of the people you're managing) makes me think you would LOVE playing Rimworld. It's basically the same premise: you're managing a colony but the real interest comes from interactions between your pawns, what happens to them, and their tales of heroic success or abject failure.

[@sebastiangibson9671]

oh yeah DD and rim are similar except for fucking randy

[@obermegalutschoar]

I enjoyed Darkest Dungeon, but I didn't end up caring a lot about my characters in the end, since whenever one character died, it would just take a week or two for a guy who looks exactly the same to pop up in the hamlet, sometimes with the same randomly generated name. It also feels too game-y that you can simply remove any negative quirk that a character has. By comparion, I felt much more involved with the characters in the XCOM games, even though their character traits aren't woven to game mechanics as they are in Darkest Dungeon... but it really stuck with you when your grenadier made that one in a million shot, or a ranger panics on you but you have to take them with you on the next mission, anyway, and you were just waiting for them to lose it again. I think one big reason why Darkest Dungeon didn't stick that much for me is that losses don't feel that dramatic. When a hero dies, you simply grind a new one back to the level you need them to be, and when you lose a mission, you often enough still get big rewards if you managed to stay in the dungeon long enough. Maybe I'll have more fun replaying the game on NG+, since you get a limit on how many weeks you get to finish the game and how many heroes are allowed to bite it.

[@MrCorgifan2]

Or name your dudes and dudettes after your family and friends, that may make you care more

[@sugoiuseismoeabuse4058]

Yeah I feel the same way. XCOM and XCOM 2 has every person mattering in a continuous series of skill and tech checks where if you don't pass the mission exam of "can you defeat two sectopods, a squad of elite troopers and several big daddy mechs", you're going to be facing a harsh game over. Whereas in Darkest Dungeon, I am not pressed for time, money, or anything really. I can spend decades in game life casually bringing people to the meat grinder like the world's worst mining job (you're working in dangerous conditions where everyone is specialized in a particular manner of exploring areas without OSHA and unions to save your poor ass, not to mention the fact that you're working in a town that is designed to milk you until the next sucker comes along who for all intents and purposes isn't different from you in the least) and not worry about the cthulu core of the earth coming along and exploding the planet. Yes there is a "hard mode" where you have that timer, but really it isn't that different from a normal game run minus the fact you can't turn off multiple game mechanics & you still can't bring high leveled characters to low dungeon runs, why? Because if that was possibly you would have so much easy money & low stress from being able to casually kill off these mooks that the entire game would not be able to handle that much cheese.

[@LuciferianStrings]

i believe thats sort of the point, its not meant to be ''look at this knight you've seen before 21 times, you have to care about it now'' it doesnt ask it of you, you do it by yourself, that detached feeling you eventually get is , i believe, what they wanted, you're fighting a war, agaisnt things that have no honour, no feelings, no empathy, no sympathy, they are abominations, and since they're virtual and have no development this effect of them bieng an enemy and nothing else is conveyed, and to fight a war agaisnt an infinity of unfeeling monstroicities you need unfeeling warriors, and you have to be unfeeling too, the game becomes much easier when you stop acting like a hero and start acting mechanically, using these people as resources and not as companions. this reminder of their humanity is only there to let you know they're vunerable too, they're people and its an attempt at making it harder to be colder and effective. sure its not done as well as it would be, mainly when most of the more humanizing aspects are quite hidden like in the special character specific items that represent certain aspects from their respective lives, like a hitlist, or a doll from childhood or a reminder of a long and hardous military career, and in campfire talks when you have a quiet less stressful moment they let you know about themselves. Darkest dungeon does all this without asking anything of you, its out of your way and none of it is necessary, you can play as you want. i think Darkest Dungeon is underapreciated.

[@jacquelinesaunders4023]

I'm probably late to the party, but there is something incredible about having all these amazing, non-mechanicized moments in XCOM. Even if it makes less tactical sense, Bossman always puts himself in danger to rescue civilians, and Miracle ran through 52 barrages of alien weapons with not a scratch to escape with her team. Disco, the squad's heavy from the first war rolls up with a machete, and kicks ass even though he's a squaddie. Mechanics that allow notable moments to happen are great.

[@alagosplode]

Many people fall in the face of darkness, but not this one, not today. That's my favorite line, I think, in the whole game.

[@Shh.ItsAllOkay.]

The papers please music is my ringtone. Hearing it in any context now brings up a feeling of dread. It really helped when playing the game.

[@manicdogma2240]

It's funny looking back on this video five years later and seeing Red Hook *agree* with HBomb in how they're constructing the second game. In shifting to a much more traditional Roguelite format they've focused the game down to dealing with a small group of quite specific people with their own personal foibles, and actual personal relationships that you need to work with and adapt to on the fly. Darkest Dungeon 1 is clearly a brilliant game, and an achievement to be proud of, but it's equally clearly not exactly right for the emergent stories they wanted to make.

[@SocksAndPuppets]

my biggest problem with the ludonarrative in Darkest Dungeon is the realization that you can just completely obsolete everyone's problems if you're just willing to hire some new heroes, send them into a dungeon with no equipment, get as much money as possible, then run away before the last one dies. This leaves you with a free day for your invested heroes to work on expunging their negative traits, the money to do it, the money to do it, and no penalties for your behaviour as you can just fire any survivors and do it again and again, until every hero in your team is perfect, no stress, no negative traits, no gritty realism. The money also ensures you can start every major mission with a full inventory of equipment, just to make it extra safe. it's not particularly fun to do this, and it makes for a much worse experience than playing the game organically as "intended" - but once your heroes have been on a bunch of quests, the cost of losing one in raw grind-time is immense, so you're highly encouraged to abuse the systems like this to prevent the game grinding to a halt while you replace someone who died because you didn't prepare enough - this cost is so high that you're actively encouraged to play it as safely as possible, lest you get set back tens of hours of investment.

[@SocksAndPuppets]

This is the most common complaint I see levelled against the game, and it's not like the developers didn't know about it during development - the early access forums were full of threads about the "expendable squad" tactic. But there's not a lot of value in griping if you don't pose solutions - Here's a bunch of ideas I proposed while the game was in Early Access. (It's not exhaustive, and you only need one or two to help address the problem) - Make it so that hiring new heroes has a cost in gold, that increases with the number of heroes you have employed - if the player runs out of gold and heroes, waive the cost. - Make it so that heroes can only receive "therapy" for their most recent adventure, after enough treatments or visits to bars, they simply can't continue improving without going on another quest. - Make it a frequent occurrence that the only missions available are high level, forcing the player to send their best squad, even if they're not quite "ready" yet. - Make it so that if enough rookies die in your employ, the caravan just... stops bringing you new ones for a while, forcing you to work with your established veterans instead. - Make it so that, if enough rookies die in your employ, new heroes refuse to go on missions without the support of at least one of your most veteran heroes, to make sure they survive... - Have an integraged part of the system where the death of any character, even a new one, wears down the rest of the heroes in your employ, as they realize, it could be them next.

[@larsthememelord3383]

I mean should it be fun to send people to their doom and I actually like how new recruits cost nothing because it makes it so lives are cheap and expendable and their equipment is what gives them value also if heroes cost gold you’d just get in a situation where you lack the funds to destress your heroes or to buy new recruits causing you to have send your remaining guys on a mission that will most likely kill them

[@libero2711_]

that IS realistic. lives are cheaper than gold, and often abused for greedy pursuit of riches of the ones at power. if you can't enjoy that then maybe ludonarrative isn't for you

[@jamesmitchell7707]

Subnautica also has a fantastic ludonarrative for a completely different reason. You are in the shoes of Robinson as he tries to survive on an alien planet. When he gets scared, you get scared. When he makes a discovery, you feel intrigued. For a guy who stays completely silent (other than gasps or grunts of pain when he gets injured), he's extremely relatable. Playing this game, you know exactly what he's going through.

[@richardcaliandro4336]

If you haven't already, I think you should check out "This is the Police." It has a lot of the same elements you praised about Papers, Please and Darkest Dungeon.

[@alexeistrife56]

'If you didn't bring enough torches." Jokes on you. I play on Complete Darkness all the time. Good video though. This is an oddly unique channel - I like it. Do you happen to have a Steam account you'd like to share?

[@alexeistrife56]

mage7 I hold too much personal interest in keeping all my characters alive to suicide them like that. :p. I've had all the original six from the first three weeks survive all the way to week 50.

[@alexeistrife56]

Urrcreavesh Something like, 'On This Old Road,' right?

[@Tritonite5]

if you look at the character comics, the Highwayman shot and killed a woman and child who look exactly like the crusader's wife and son. Therefore the crusader's sin was leaving his wife and child, and Dismas' was killing Reynauld's wife and son.

[@Kain-wk6xk]

lol beware the shambler it can jump u on pitch black

[@aaronjacobamadorsalazar1934]

Alexei Strife remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer

[@Neat0Bandito62]

This is one of my favorite games. The mounting stress of your characters affects you, and makes you feel stressed out. It really gets to you.

[@SmellyKebbito]

Death Road to Canada is an interesting one I think you'd like, if Darkest Dungeon is something you're interested in, DR2C explores the more hidden traits of people, but doesn't take the morality of it too seriously.

[@DarkKaij]

Man, I work in a HR of a company. Great perception. Gave me tons of insights. I have to go back and play all over again with this perspective.

[@QooperG28]

2:38 That line made my day, because I see myself in that scenario! I just realised thats a sad thing, but whatever your videos are pretty good. Subscribed!

[@zoetv2170]

I didn't see this video until now. Thanks for making a Darkest Dungeon analysis, I love this game TwT

[@osriccauldwyn]

I LOVE this game but I always feel like I'm treading water.

[@longlongtran]

I think thats the point

[@zeez145]

Dude even your videos from 8 years ago are great!

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Ooh, the one horror game I really like. Also a case study in how classic D&D works when at its best.

[@thewingedcroc]

I think the "cold hard numbers* could be fixed with more vague descriptions. Instead if "alcoholic" we hear his mom tell us he drinks too much. The truth is muddied through an extra channel, with room for bias etc to get in.

[@samwallaceart288]

I would do it by reputation. Not "he is objectively alcoholic", but simply "people around town say he's alcoholic". And maybe throw in a couple of characters that go against what their reputation suggests; like a warrior badass who supposedly "had his vocal cords ripped out in a fight"; but actually he's just really shy around people and doesn't talk much. Ok, probably wouldn't apply to the actual gameplay, but *that kind* of misconstrued reputation, to cast some doubt on all the other reputed feeds you get.

[@TheBigKaiju]

This feels like a game where the suffering is the fun part

[@sebastiangibson9671]

yeah thats the point I guess its very fun like dark souls is really nice seeing your heroes overcome the odds and fuck over a siren with five hits all being crits and then being super proud only for them to die to an accidental encounter with the thing from the stars

[@bjf10]

Kevin is a plague doctor... that MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. KEVIN.

[@titanuranus3095]

It is just wierd to me now how this video isn't 4 hours long

[@Solarn40]

Ludonarrative is a new word to me. When I first encountered the phenomenon, it was known as emergent story(telling). It's one of my favourite things and games that do it well are automatically on my to-buy list. I guess I'll need to check out Darkest Dungeon.

[@kazerniel]

I've been paying Papers Please recently, and yeah, it's one of those games I wouldn't call "fun", because it's oppressive and depressing, but still an interesting experience.

[@DUKEHadToDoItToEm]

The game isn't about leading a party to defeat the darkest dungeon, it's about killing as few mercenaries in the process of trying to do so

[@CaH6633]

It is so weird seeing an old hbomberguy video and it's not 4 hours long.

[@Mistheart101]

I've got a couple good stories about heroes I've had in Darkest Dungeon. The first is Thorel, the Houndmaster. He and a few other heroes went to fight Vvulf. The problem? Everyone else ended up dying (some of stress, some of blades to the vitals). But not Thorel. Time and time again, he defied the reaper's call. Hound's Harried Vvulf to death. Thorel survived, leveled up, and gained: Lygophobia (negative quirk related to darkness), Tough (increased health, a fitting quirk), and the Worries disease (more stress, also very fitting). The other story is not quite as thrilling, but still amazing to me. He died in the first room battle of a quest, which was unfortunate. He had Twilight Dreamer which lets him see invisible enemies. However, wanna know what event greeted me upon returning to the Hamlet? The one that lets you revive three random guys. AND ONE OF THEM WAS THE BOUNTY HUNTER!

[@Omgacow1000]

Papers please is one of the best games ever made. The fact that one guy made it is so incredible

[@Hekateras]

Okay, I'm even more convinced you should play Invisible Inc now - an INCREDIBLY under-appreciated, sublimely-designed game by the makers of Mark of the Ninja and Don't Starve, and sadly overshadowed by DST's success. Let me do a pitch for it: Invisible Inc is an indie cyberpunk tactical turn-based stealth game where you play as the Operator of a small team of spies infiltrating corporate facilities, and it's something like a roguelite stealth blend of XCOM and Commandos. The facility maps are procedurally generated, and in most missions your agents teleport into a random spot on the map, scout out the rest of it and escape through the exit - ideally completing the main objective and looting things along the way, but this is very much a game where, much like in Darkest Dungeon, just getting out with all or most of your party still alive can be a "win". Unlike in XCOM or most stealth games, you're ultimately outgunned and outnumbered by enemy security and beat the enemy with some combination of stealth (based on line-of-sight and cover mechanics), items, weapons and sometimes just throwing an agent at them as a sacrificial lamb to buy the rest of your team that extra turn they need to escape. While the game isn't story-heavy as such, there is a main plot and oodles of lore (expanded substantially by the Contingency Plan DLC) about the agents and the not-too-distant-future corporate dystopian, post-war world the game is set, much of it unlockable as a reward for specific side objectives or only found in item flavour text or dialogues between agents if you have specific ones on your team. The fact that the agents whose lives and actions you're in charge of are pre-designed characters rather than random NPCs with randomly-generated names and templates makes you get even more attached to them. They each have their own backstory, unique abilities and even oneliners and banters, but to you, the Operator, they're ultimately just tools to be used. The campaign is short but the kicker is in replaying it over and over, using different agents, hacking programs, items and strategies. In the Lisa video you mentioned that some games are incredibly good at inspiring others and rousing the imagination. This is that game, for me - I've made fanart, I've written fan stories, this game even inspired me to take up modding and programming literally for the first time in my life because I was having so much fun adding to the experience to squeeze even more hours out of it. I've had dozens of campaigns by now and there are still moments that are crystal clear in my memory, down to the randomly-generated map layouts, because of tough situations they presented when I had to carefully choose how to spend my limited resources that turn to get the maximum amount of intel to make an informed choice, and still be able to actually make that choice. It is the ultimate intelligence game - intelligence in the sense of an asset, something you need before you make a tactical decision. You're always limited in how much you know about the enemy, but getting more intel can be costly and sometimes the best choice is just to try to do the best you can with what you have. It can get very stressful - in a good way - and the feeling of clawing it out of a situation you thought was unwinnable by the skin of your teeth is amazingly exhilarating. And then sometimes you get all those triumphant moments, and five turns from then or the next mission or the next day the campaign still goes down the drain, and it's always on you. Because you didn't play your cards right, or you made the wrong call at a crucial time, or you got greedy and completionist and sent your team for that last remaining safe (unnecessary, but holding sweet cash that will let you get stat and gear upgrades and make you more likely to survive later on!) instead of going for the exit even though alarm level was already at maximum, cough, just a random example that's totally made up, I promise. It's really just an amazing game and I wish more people would know about it. It deserves oodles upon oodles of videos analysing its gameplay and all the ways it perfectly achieves what it sets out to do. I hope you give it a try.

[@H3Wbris]

I am currently citing this video as a source for the definition of Ludonarrative in a university-level analysis of Frostpunk. Is Brewis, H. M. a reputable source? idk, prolly.

[@elim9054]

Darkest Dungeon is a game about cracking open an Old One with the boys

[@ScuddotWobbrel]

I have never felt more emotionally drained than after a session of darkest dungeon. I usually have to set it down for a bit before continuing.

[@katedunkley4747]

Just hanging out with my friends, Auvray, Tourlaville, Kevin, Faucon, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Me and Simpsons Hentai

[@Companion92]

One reason I like this game so much is that it reminds me on dungeons & dragons. Which I play since my childhood

[@cazabrow1967]

The best is when you get a hero who has both the "thick blood" and "thin blood" quirks for simulatenous -10% bleed resist and +10% bleed resist

[@elim9054]

One time I had a Plague Doctor with Deviant Tastes (can't go to the brothel) and Love Interest (can *only* go to the brothel) at the same time. She was literally unable to heal stress in town unless I got rid of one of those.

[@whostolehonno]

You'll be pumping more videos than sargon at this rate.

[@MeonLights]

Everytime I lose my mind over my lvl 6 Leper shouting abuse at his teammates and then getting bitten to death while my best fighter is still missing with the stupid question mark next to their face... I come back here because I feel understood

[@hemangchauhan2864]

I've read the older RPGs did that. Like Wizardry 7, Baldur's gate series and System Shock, where the the immersion was created from from your actions, and that way, you became the part of the story.

[@galelululu]

don’t wanna do a whole essay I’m sure it’s been done before but the change from dnd 4e to 5e was a change in focus from combat under pretence of narrative to like 50% ludonarrative even within those combats

[@unseenmolee]

This video helped me fall in love with so many video games

[@decoy1359]

It's been 5 years since this video but I have to leave this comment just to say: I finally started playing Darkest Dungeon a few days ago and the whole fucking time I've been instinctually referring to the vestal class as the "simpsons hentai" class while also treating it like each vestal's name, and I hate you for it

[@scienceteam9254]

6:00 I come from the future. DD2 explores the individuals more.

[@Rezanaly]

then i noticed he's got at least three guys all named "kevin"

[@MartinRiber]

Fun fact: building a bank basically engages easy mode, interpretation is up for grabs on that one...

[@sebastiangibson9671]

yeah its good to get late game where your sitting on a massive stockpile where the interest usually pays off the provisions till it snowballs and then you can fully upgrade someone with just one weeks worth of time passing

[@umbaupause]

I think the quirk system solidifies a point that is a bit more sinister and fits the ludonarrative aspect very well. The game won't punish you for using these people like consumables. Hire a bunch of idiots, throw them into a horrific mission and just discard them. "Like a spent torch" is a wonderful description of this, which the game itself delivers to you if you do decide to "cast them aside" like that. And well, why not use your human ressources for your own gain... Though, does the game hint that this is a good strategy? I can't remember...

[@DabbleDo]

Weald means a woodland.. for anyone wondering

[@masterzoroark6664]

Ah Darkest Dungeon about being a CEO and turning people into glue before replacing them with new hiers.

[@steeveewuzzheer1992]

Your point about the heroes’ traits in darkest dungeon being too telegraphed to be realistic can be addressed in a terrifying but ultimately effective way; keeping the trait hidden until it’s relevant. Much like real life, you won’t know someone’s an alcoholic until you see them sip from a flask at work. You won’t know someone’s does fantastic in a tomb until you send them there and they’re very enthusiastic. I think this is can, in a way, already be a thing in the game; your characters traits gained at the end of a dungeon is maybe not always something they developed while underground but perhaps something they had all along.

[@allankcrain]

"Bad on the inside, where my heart should be". Felt that one.

[@KarmaSpaz12]

Just as you rolled for your quirk and began cackling my sound card died and I thought that the resulting audio meltdown was on purpose at first. Instead it was most likely discord opening that ruined something. As for the characters feeling a bit by the numbers I suddenly thought about adding relationships between npcs and maybe go a bit more in depth with particular cures/remedies for their afflictions/vices. Alchoholic? What do they like to drink? etc etc.

[@elliel.5915]

When I'm short on money in darkest dungeon, I recruit a bunch of low level heroes and do a couple of pitch black runs with them with close to no supplies, and then just sack them instead of bothering to relieve their stress. Damn this video made me think about real-world parallels to this tactic...

[@christiangasior4244]

Honestly wish I was so easily amused. He cracks up at everything like the “nymphomania” thing. Guess I’m just dead inside.

[@AcePincter]

Good video. I had passed up Darkest Dungeon because I didn't understand what it was *about*. This vid has encounraged me to give it a try. BTW the game you mention there might be room for with the slightly less mechanistic trait/quirk/flaw system might be "Rimworld"

[@Leftistattheparty]

Just got this game after wishlisting it because of this video 3 years ago. I renamed everyone members of my family and friends. Boy does it get awkward when my mother becomes a nymphomaniac.

[@sebastiangibson9671]

heh name one after yourself and then watch all the weird wacky traits fly to you like a vulture to a corpse

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Great gods, I adore the atmosphere and artstyle of this game. And some of the btilliant mods, particularly the Buried class mod.

[@AW-zu4kk]

This game is about crying about your hard earned mercenaries getting verbally abused by their teammate after you forget a shovel.

[@lubieplacki2772]

4:27 Jester turns Stalwart and claims the situation he's in is "positively hilarious? He literally went Joker mode.

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

I played that game ALMOST to its end. I made it all the way to the Darkest Dungeon, having done everything else, all without losing a single hero and then... I just couldn't bring myself to finish the game. I wasn't ready to risk my perfectly preserved heroes on a run where retreat meant that one of them died. So... I literally never finished it. I watched the runs on KZbin, as done by someone else, uninstalled the game and never touched it, again. I am not sure if that was the maker's intent, but I wonder if I am the only one who reacted this way.

[@ShiChelle]

Definitely not the only one. I did too! I attempted the first final dungeon, lost two really good characters, and couldn't subject any more of them to the brutality that one party faced. I imagine the remaining two survivors telling all the other fairly traumatized people in the camp that they've Seen Some Shit and the others are like "it gets worse??" lol

[@broomybroomybroomy]

The second Darkest Dungeon run is probably the hardest one. The last one is probably the easiest. I'd recommend just doing it. Just bring a party with good bleed, bleed resistance, stress healing, and the capability to dance or attack from multiple positions. Vestal, Jester, Hellion, Hellion is a good one for DD1. Currently halfway through a Stygian run. Almost ready to storm DD1... just need the right party composition.

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

@@broomybroomybroomy It's too late for me, by now. The motivation is dead and I am just not going to play a game that I do not feel motivated to play. That game is going to remain unfinished forever.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Ah, this video is a perfect take on the game.

[@Droffatsstafford]

Darkest Dungeon is a game that I love, but I can't play it for shit. I understand the mechanics and all, but the game puts me in a management role, and I maybe kinda sorta try to min-max everything to hell and back? ...There's a lot I could say about that, but I end up utterly exhausting myself by the time I've finished a single mission.

[@pedrosaraiva]

I spent entire days on Darkest Dungeon. The game is just so cool. I never finished it, in part because the game is hard, but also because I wanted to juice the game to the max. Trying different load-outs, exploring the traits, upgrading the town, basically hoarding the dungeons. The torch mechanic was something novel to me. Very cool. It almost doesn’t feel like a turn based / micro management tactics game and more like an exploration one. I really like it.

[@stevenboelke6661]

So it's a high stakes middle-management position.

[@iainjames03]

Has the Braid video mentioned at the end been taken down? Or am I not searching hard enough?

[@aturchomicz821]

Properly, Sadge

[@Spacemongerr]

It's right below this one in the "Videos" list on the channel. It's called "Braid was pretty good".

[@TheDominitri]

Lugo-narrative discodance

[@qwormuli77]

"The combat system is easy to metagame and optimize." - Says a man using really, *really,* suboptimal(almost throwaway) stuff... Other than everything mechanical you talked about, 'tis a pretty nice vod.