Dart GM LS Block Comparison

[@billiebobthemechanic]

What's the old saying? "How fast do you want to spend?"

[@JTient]

Yeah this is the part I really don't understand is the huge mark up when the cost isn't all that higher between the 2. The expensive part is the foundry and machine time so adding some nickel and larger holes for bigger head studs. Yeah sure economy of scale but instead of 3 why not a whole bunch of the super strong one. I just want 1400hp for 5K 😂

[@TM-lw8wn]

great, now tell me what wrecking yard has assembled dart motors by the hundreds for $400

[@josephmonaco4503]

None, but where can you buy a Billet Block with a 4.60" bore and start out with a BBC 4.60" bore with a 3.76" stroke and get a 502cu motor for less than a steel BBC block form Chevy's Factory. The answer is NOWHERE!!!

[@russelmcfarland9521]

Can you still buy running gen 3 engines for that low?

[@milojanis4901]

@@josephmonaco4503 Uh, your post is a little hard to follow. Please elaborate on what you're trying to say......

[@shaadydog1]

No, they are unicorn finds and where I have lived always have been.

[@G5Hohn]

The Dart block casting quality looks pretty rough around the lifter bore bosses and such. Reminds me of the some of the Chinese head and block castings I've seen. The Dart bottom end is definitely a step backwards. The thicker decks are nice, but overall the casting on the Dart looks like they just put a ton of metal into it (which costs a lot). For the cost of an LS Next, you could get an ERL block build and have a MUCH stronger setup that also weighs a lot less and works with all factory provisions. You can't just clamp the head on tighter to overcome high boost problems because the bores are distorting under the massive pressure. That is why the ERL design is SUPERIOR. It's the most proven high-hp LS setup around.

[@lesgray3355]

I highly doubt that ERL had a superior and most proven high hp Ls block solution. I wouldn’t want all that money tied up in a GM factory issued block with potential core shift issues that went unnoticed and then decided to show its face in my completed $30k+ engine. I don’t mind the rough casting because I smooth all cast flashing and irregularities in the lifter valley as well as crankcase areas. I doubt you own any of the mentioned aftermarket blocks anyways.

[@lesgray3355]

bobwatters yes correct it was proven that they made factory blocks better and respected by some. But I checked into their blocks when I was in the market for aftermarket blocks and wasn’t overly impressed by what they offered. I don’t doubt they didn’t have a great product but I highly doubt it was superior to dart, rhs, lsx, or world products blocks.

[@lesgray3355]

bobwatters and no it’s not important if I agree with you ERL fans, especially since I own the featured long block and 4.5L whipple in the video that is built on a dart LsNext block.

[@jango1782]

ERL was so proven... that they went out of business unexpectedly. A month prior they were toting new fancy fliers and boom...out of business.

[@G5Hohn]

Daniel technical merit and business acumen aren’t the same thing. It’s not valid to cite a business failure as evidence of a technical inferiority. It may be inferior, but the business failure isn’t proof of that.

[@americanmuscle7015]

To make a long story short the Dart block is far superior than the GM

[@stellingbanjodude]

That info on the LS3 block is incorrect, it has a 4.065 bore not 4.000

[@krazyphucker369]

Also the iron dart blocks have larger openings for better airflow between the mains that helps with windage dramatically compared to the aluminum blocks

[@chrisnau6414]

I like the guys at Borowski.Tim is a great guy he tuned my ZL1 Camaro with the dart ls 427 twin turbo.And I ran into some bad luck and they came down and tuned it .I would always go back.

[@borowskirace]

Thanks for your comment, Chris!

[@josephbutler3577]

@@borowskirace just a general question with using that dart block to build a 406 with about 740 horsepower what is the total cost of the build

[@borowskirace]

@@josephbutler3577 Hi Joseph, There are some engine packages on our website you can take a look at, but the best way to get a price is to call us at 815-725-2727. Thanks.

[@borowskirace]

@@josephbutler3577 Hi Joseph. The Dart LS Next2 block is gross overkill for 740 hp. In fact, we don't use any aftermarket blocks for what you want as a seasoned GM block that we have redone on our CNCs is more than up to the task at a much lower cost. Our NA builds with a Dart or RHS block would be 427 ci and come in at over 800 hp on pump gas. Here is a link to one such recent build with an aluminum RHS block which adds about $3K over the price of an iron Dart SHP LS Next block. About $4K could be taken out of the cost of this one by switching to a Dart SHP LS Next block and less expensive cylinder heads. borowskirace.com/products/800-hp-427-ci-aluminum-hydraulic-roller-ls-engine-for-road-and-track?variant=39270632456366

[@borowskirace]

This one is very close to what you asked about. borowskirace.com/products/750-hp-borowski-power-on-a-budget-6-8l-hydraulic-roller-ls-engine?variant=38181660721326

[@DanielOrtegoUSA]

Dang, some of these comments are overly harsh. I order stuff from Dart, and also Noonan Race. Granted, that is apple and oranges, but I also consider the shop whenever I need help with a build. I like Borowski because Ken McCaul is honest, and that's hard to find in the engine building business. They received 'Race Engine Builder of the Year' at PRI 2018. Okay, I never owned a DART block, so I can only speak to the same observation as others' have pointed out. I am planning a new build, and I may choose them to build it. Since I originally posted this 11-months ago, I'm now more inclined to go with RH for a more GM like config'.

[@Dr_Xyzt]

0:56, I see the lifters are visible unlike the factory LS block. What is the actual purpose of these openings? I've never had the luxury of an aftermarket block. Is it so you can reach the lifters without pulling the heads if you're doing a cam swap? Lubrication? Drainback? The extra head-stud?

[@borowskirace]

Excellent question! The opening you noticed on the Dart block is for access to the extra head studs.

[@JimmyCasket02]

So why do away with the cross bolt mains on the dart block I’m just wondering

[@borowskirace]

The cross bolts were an after-thought on the GM blocks as the original four bolt system was found to be inadequate. Dart's splayed four-bolt design is inherently stronger for a variety of reasons. Not all the Dart blocks are skirted. The skirts are only there to facilitate using the OE accessory system.

[@TheAkstewie]

NOW IF THEY WOULD JUST PRICE THEM A FAIR AMOUNT MINUS ALL THE LS HYPE MARK UP

[@doon714]

I'm sure WJ did his homework when he designed the GM block.......

[@G5Hohn]

It’s interesting to me that we still seem to think priority main is a good thing. Do the math sometime on whether the main or the cam/lifter interface and you’ll see it’s not even close: the cam is by far a more highly loaded oil film. The GM engineers aren’t dumb.

[@Robert-mn8gc]

Thought Dart offered an LS Billet BLOCK that was Approx $12k to $14k as well ???

[@borowskirace]

Dart does have a billet LS block. The block in this video is a Dart billet LS. kzbin.info1iAC6pXrETM?si=YiFMGSXWFdBSKhme

[@roberthoward2610]

How come you guys don't do a comparison between a Dart and a RHS block?

[@borowskirace]

Good question. We use both blocks and have had no issues with either, but they are different. Over the past two years, both were in short supply so availability largely determined which one we'd use. Perhaps we might also want to do a broader scope video on the range of aluminum blocks from GM through billet. Stay tuned.

[@br1_deadpedal]

So the aluminum block isnt as strong as the older but beefier style splayed main But the aluminum block has priority oiling

[@joshtheking1772]

Dart lost me at main cap design. This shift is enough to turn your motor into a one off and I like being able to use some factory parts because factory part in some places are preferred. The LS is about cost plain and simple.

[@mikeeagle2653]

Those dart main caps have been around for 20 yrs.

[@melissaward2720]

Doctors used to carry around bags full of maggots too

[@melissaward2720]

4 bolt mains > 6 bolt mains? Cross bolting the main caps to the block skirt has to increase ridgidity more than just a splayed bolt

[@lordpula1193]

Dart or Brodix?

[@excelerater]

Having raced Dart blocks VS GM its not even a comparison ,LS,BB,SB

[@snail5341]

Apples and oranges

[@lordpula1193]

Dart & Brodix beat original usually especially high hp and torque

[@zx6r1320]

Can the Dart SHP block handle 2000 HP out of a twin turbo car? We know the SHP PRO will but will the SHP be fine at 2000 give or take?

[@borowskirace]

We use the SHP Pro for 2,000 hp builds. Can the SHP handle it? If going that route, the main bolts should be upgraded to main studs and the head studs upgraded to 1/2". borowskirace.com/products/dart-ls-next-main-stud-upgrade-kit?variant=5065481617435

[@zx6r1320]

@@borowskirace thank you

[@sparkimoto]

I have been a bit confused on the meaning of DART in reference to engines. I had thought it referred to the aluminum version of a stock block or head. Looks like I've had it wrong all this time. DART has nothing to do with the type of casting material but is an after market brand name of engine blocks and heads. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone!

[@borowskirace]

Our reference to "Dart" refers to Dart Machinery, website LLC dartheads.com/ In this blog, the focus was on their engine blocks designed as alternatives to GM's LS family of engine blocks. Dart brands these as "LS Next". These aftermarket blocks are available in both aluminum and cast iron with multiple design variants. In general, we use the less expensive GM blocks in less demanding applications and then switch to an appropriate Dart block as we climb the horsepower ladder.

[@95Sn95]

I would think splayed 4 bolt plus cross bolted would really increase rigidity, it would really tie things together...? Not like it would be hard to do and not add a significant amount of weight allready gone to iron for strength whats another 20lbs max?

[@borowskirace]

We agree completely. We took our first delivery of LS Next blocks about 5 years ago. The three we received had been pro-ordered about six months earlier without having ever actually seen one. We were inspected them when three guys came in the shop. Each had an LS that they wanted us to rebuild. Once they saw the Dart blocks, they all concluded what we had immediately concluded. It was visually obvious that the 4-bolt splayed Dart block was far better than the 6-bolt GM block bottom end. Those first three blocks ended up being sold within 20 minutes of arrival at our shop. Here is where they ended up: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWe8aaZtac6nY9E kzbin.info/www/bejne/f57Unmpsh6iMebM www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/engine-tech-borowski-builds-mild-mannered-427ci-with-ls-next-block/ (later added a 2.9L Whipple)

[@mashendaniels341]

Awesome

[@smithperformanceracing5848]

GD information

[@kkoch666]

I guess u need the Dart block if your shooting for 9000 horsepower

[@Stevesbe]

Over 1500 yes

[@jordanmascarenhas7974]

What a well done and informative video!👍🏼

[@stevewill1940]

what does kazoom think of this comparison?

[@chickenfoundation9323]

Are the dart blocks the same height as the gm block?

[@borowskirace]

Thanks for the question. They are the same height. Dart does have tall deck options, but the standard 9.240" deck height Dart block is the same as GM. We've got 8 blocks in stock (1/14/21). 815-725-2727

[@lesgray3355]

Man my engine looks good on that engine stand!!

[@milojanis4901]

You are a lucky man, Les Gray. I'm older now, and have MORE Gray!!!!

[@michaelgraham2347]

Look like borrow skills ,lol

[@95Sn95]

I would think cross bolted mains would be superior? But obviously World knows something i dont...mind blower...

[@markrich3271]

That the Gen1 design was superior. I would like to know why they did it.

[@tylerhensley2312]

@@markrich3271 I would say the factory ls block design with 6 yes 6 bolts holding it together is much stronger. The only reason I can see that makes the dart parts stronger would be the fact they made them out of billet instead of centered powder caps.

[@tylerhensley2312]

I think the ls design is better. It has 6 bolts vs just 4 on the dart block.

[@95Sn95]

It does seem that way... Its hard to say seems both GM and Dart do extensive research, only thing i can think is the dart is prob stronger because its built beefier overall not necessarily the style. You build anything beefie enough it will hold up better. theres full race gen 1 SBC blocks out there stronger than oem LS blocks.

[@wheelitzr2]

@@95Sn95 the stock LS bottom end is as strong or stronger even with the sintered metal caps and smaller hardware than The dart block. The exact reason dart is using this style is machining cost, the LS side bolts require a level of machining on both the block and caps that would make the dart block so expensive they couldn't sell them. GM on the other hand once set up could make thousands of parts that match exactly for a small amount of extra money. Put all that aside the gm lsx block with it's billet caps and side bolts is easily twice to 3x as strong as the dart design just because of the side bolts.

[@markrich3271]

I love how dart uses a Gen 1 sbc configuration on their bottom end. I still love my SBC .

[@belazsoltmeszegeto2436]

A főtengelycsapágyolajzást alulról a kartelba egy közös olajnyomócsővel, elipszis keresztmetszetü furatokon. " oil bag "

[@TheSteve1175]

SUBED 😁

[@LeeSmith-dx7gg]

It seems like they cheapened out by not having 6 bolt mains. The philosophy is hypocritical. We remove ten bolts at crank support but add 13 to the heads. Oxymoron in my opinion

[@borowskirace]

We disagree. Let's start with theory. The GM design has only four fasteners providing the all-important downward clamping pressure. The two other fasteners only add lateral stability. The Dart block uses a splayed design which sacrifices a small amount of downward force to achieve the required lateral stability. Larger diameter fasteners are a big deal because the clamping force is an exponential function of diameter. All else being equal, going from 10mm to 7/16" increases clamping force by 29%. Going to the 1/2" main fasteners in an LS Next2 takes the clamping force up 80% compared to a 10mm fastener. Fastener quality as measured by Proof Stress is another major factor. In this case, the clamping force is proportional to the Proof Stress. Chinese fasteners or ARP? Billet caps or powdered metal caps? You choose. As stated in the video, and clearly seen around 2:58, it is visually obvious that the Dart block is a much stronger design. Link to calculator: www.securitylocknut.com/how-is-clamp-force-for-a-bolt-and-nut-assembly-calculated/ The true proof is always in the pudding. We have built a lot of big-power engines using Dart LS Next blocks over the last ten years. Number of bottom end failures = 0.

[@Ls3guy]

The ls 6 bolt main is better than the dart block

[@mlong5151]

main journals look to big on both. imho.but i am old school