Dave Rat Reddit Responses - Episode 2

[@jimpemberton]

Dave, you're not only a brilliant sound engineer but you're a gentleman too. Some of these comments you're reading aren't very kind and you let them fall off like water off a duck's back. And I don't just say that you're a brilliant sound engineer for no reason. I have an education in physics and music. I also have plenty enough FOH experience. Even with all that, your testing and ideas have given me ideas I haven't thought of to try and continually improve my own craft. And I don't just check out your material, but other people's as well. You have the most comprehensive understanding of how to design a system of anyone I learn from. Peace and happy sounds.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and this makes me happy!

[@jeffdeprey6279]

I agree, even if you want to make a argument back, some people are being rude! I thought the argument comparing the way stereo works to trick our 2 ears in to hearing 1 sound from 1 location and comparing that to the screen was interesting, but in the end that trick works better with headphones on, and when you walk around a concert the phasing changes is ways that ruins the trick in negative ways. I think Dave has some very interesting ideas on all this stuff, calling it woohoo was disrespectful at best.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jeff and more to come as the comments 9n reddit get more aggressive and I hopefully find suitable responses

[@jungleb]

Dave, I wish I could be a poet to describe how thankful I am of you sharing your experience with us! Keep it up!

[@DaveRat]

Oh my and thank you

[@JohnReeve]

Dave you are a treasure in this world. I’ve been paying attention to what you’ve been writing and putting out for a decade and learned a whole lot. Thank you.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you John!

[@covenantsound6774]

I suspect that this series is going to get really fun! Peace Dave, thanks for sharing

[@DaveRat]

Ha! And well if fun involves going head to head with opposing views, then yes

[@howardmcgregor4351]

Just the facts, you deliver every time, thank you! Keep Rockin’!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@juliuscorcimiglia6854]

Going way back to the early Roadies in the Mist Vlogs and the double V Dosc deployment tour I found it an incredible exercise both in audio as well as tour logistics. Once again my hat is off to you.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and old school blog adventures!! 🤙👍🤙

[@patrickmcdaniel2845]

The look on your face when getting ready to read these is great! It’s the same face that I have on my face when my son ropes me into riding a roller coaster with him. :) When red, blue, green light from pixels combines……..this is very different than various sounds combining in a loudspeaker. People need to play two sine waves through a speaker and listen to the resulting intermodulation distortion. Then play three sine waves and listen. Play harmonically unrelated tones. You can produce all sorts of strange sounds ……..which is exactly what synth players in the 60’s and 70’s did! Getting rid of this intermodulation distortion is exactly why the Wall Of Sound PA system existed. Reading about these old PA systems is quite fascinating!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and more to come and also a while back I did a vid on IM distortion

[@Twongo]

I find the analogy sufficient. The guy did have a point. If you (sound human) get it right, then the brain sorts all the encoded bits into the correct image. What the poster misses is that he's talking about preparing a signal for a sweet spot of one or a few choice positions, and that Dave is talking about how to get it right for 60,000 seats. (Or, as many of those as you can.)

[@DaveRat]

there is even more to it and I can see my descriptions need to be further refined. I am recording a new video that hopefully makes things clearer. The illusion that multiple sounds are radiating from various locations when actually radiating from one or 2 locations collapses as soon as we slightly move our heads. In small rooms this is more pronounced. Moving our head such that one ear gets slightly closer to some sounds and farther from others with multi iple sources is not the same as with a stereo system where moving our head moves one ear closer to all sources radiating from that speaker. I will do a visual demo and see if that helps with grasping the concept better.

[@Twongo]

@@DaveRat Looking forward to it!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@vainwretch]

You could plug the same cd into multiple systems in homes , vehicles etc..... They could all sound good and different through these different systems and physical locations. So being at a show with eyes closed , first i would judge a mix by how much clarity and separation there is between all of the instruments and vocals . Second, i would open my eyes and look at how well the actions of the performers were in sync with what was coming from the sound system. These change from venue to venue . Dave is the guy in my opinion . Love you man ! : ) God bless you

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@zdogg8]

Sir: (D.R.) you are a CLASS ACT!.... knowledgeable, congenial, succinct, no b.s., straight shooter, easy to follow. Also, I'd say you're quite unique, you occupy a unique space in the online knowledge sphere mostly because of your "thinking outside the box" ability to find what works and EXPLAIN that so well. FIVE STARS!! No SIX!!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you! I truly appreciate the great props! And thank you for joining in!

[@alexanderdumlao6296]

Dave Rat your the best teacher. very practical, useful applications,best practices in live sound simplified.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and honored!

[@tomehCanada]

You are incredibly patient man. I wish I had your patience. I don't know how you deal with all of the experts who always enjoy their own voice sooooo much and appear to not want to experiment, learn and refine their craft. Long live Dave Rat.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you you Thomas! I have found that many people feel threatened by and must attack any idea that is new or different. I have also found that ideas that can withstand these attacks are worthwhile.

[@ew7007]

I so enjoy these trips into Question/Comment - Answer time from Dave. It is brilliant and please keep it up. Genuine dialog and discourse. In my couple of decades in pro audio I've worked with and for a lot of eclectic, scary smart dudes and I learned so much. Quite often I would be listening to one of them explain some new way of running a PA or just experimenting with some crazy (to me at the time) ideas that seemed impossible. Some of those worked and some did not but it was the constant "what if we did this?" approach that I found truly inspiring. It was always a joy to work with these brilliant minds that were not afraid to buck the norm and be truly innovative. "but this is the way we've always done it" is a philosophy that insures truly boring and stagnant sound. Thanks for paving the way to greatness, Dave.

[@DaveRat]

Let's have fun trying things and figuring stuff out!

[@dighawaii1]

Thanks for all this great knowledge, man. I think it's safe to say that a good percentage of us work with audio, many professionally, many less than. The best part of the business, for me, has always been running into other sound-people who knew what they were doing and were able to communicate ideas and techniques. Your videos are an open door to knowledge that for many of us took years and years to figure out. It takes a deep desire to dig beneath the "one-liners" of audio advice, to really understand what is going on, and how to make things better. With your videos, newcomers have a massive opportunity to "skip ahead" through a lot of the trials and tribs new sound-people usually have to suffer through. They owe you a great deal of thanks for that.

[@DaveRat]

Thank 6ou Lee and it's fun to share what I have learned and sharing helps drive me to learn more.

[@erniesanders3724]

An industry legend. When Dave speaks….listen. He’s amazing.

[@DaveRat]

Question and test everything you can, we are all learning and things that we think we know now may be evolve or alter over time as we learn more. The info I share continues to evolve and it's not "right" it is just to the best of my current understandings

[@audibosoundandlight]

Just spent an afternoon moving four 18” cabs around outside in different position configs and with different processing settings. Just to see what impact minor adjustments on the rig can have on the acoustic experience. I know this is basic stuff for most, but I don’t think I would’ve done it if I wasn’t inspired by your mindset regarding experimentation with sound. Was happy to find out that even a 2 wide and 2 deep endfire setup of single cabs can have a (bigger then expected) impact on the steering of the sound. Learned what I was hoping to learn for some upcoming gigs today and it was way more fun than using prediction software (which I don’t have anyway). I think it might also have sparked a new interest in my younger brother as well since he got curious and joined in on the fun! Thanks for spreading your knowledge and enthousiasm!

[@DaveRat]

So cool and thank you. It's all about testing and seeing what's real and what's useful for your application. It always makes me so happy to see people actually testing rather than giving opinions based on what they think will happen or not. keep me updated please

[@petercoyle9922]

Dave, I am a sound engineer but not nearly at your level. First let me say Thank You for everything I learned from your videos. I also have a BS in EE from, Ahem, a while ago. I knew from the first few videos I saw on your channel that you knew what you were talking about and definitely had not only the technical aspects down but you had the wisdom from years of experience to also know that sometimes the technically correct setting doesn’t work in certain scenarios. So to all your Reddit reviewers who haven’t 0.1 % your live mixing experience I say F@&* them !

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and though frustrating at times, let's give these redditora a chance to absorb the responses. Not for all but for some or many I believe that exposure to more in depth perspectives may be beneficial and less likely to jump to conclusions in the future. Or meybe not

[@mircobernhard8543]

I love watching Your clips! You always put tricks and explanations out of Your pockets, which are so helpful and surprisingly easy to understand the way You present them. You are a very inspirational person. I’m a huge fan! Thank You for sharing Your experiences. Big ups from Berlin, Germany.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Mirco and can't wait to return to Berlin!!

[@mircobernhard8543]

@@DaveRat Let me know, when You are in town. Would love to show You our venue.

[@Meekonapa]

Dave, thanks for all your wonderful ideas and sharing them with us! It seems no matter what videos of yours I watch, I always feel inspired to make use of the new found knowledge.. Thank you.

[@DaveRat]

This makes me happy and love to know what works for your applications

[@THSonGoogle]

Haha. How I love those non knowers of a field expressing their confident opinion about that field. Pure delight. Dave, great job.

[@DaveRat]

Fun right!!

[@bertfransman9864]

"Not sure how that relates, but it does have a reference to blunts" Pure gold from mister Rat

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@jeffdeprey6279]

Best part!

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@HazeAnderson]

🤣

[@jeffjohnson2624]

You crack me up with these responses , Dave! Keep doing what you do, because I love it! Your experience speaks volumes concerning the wisdom you share and I’m so grateful for it.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jeff

[@audioquest1]

Dave you are absolutely awesome and I Thank you for all your help and advice along with expiring us to enjoy what we love much more

[@DaveRat]

Wonderful and yes! Never forget how fun invisible sound energy can be!

[@Beldvlmnt]

This is wild lol first off, thank you for sharing - just watching you engage with this is so fun; you’re obviously very passionate Also, I’m sure you don’t need my affirmations, but I was a club size live audio tech for 10 ish years, and always thought there had to be more to L and R than just a ‘mono’ mix Until recently (long after my career lol) you are telling me that is ok, and giving people like my permission to try new things. The appreciation is so high from this guy

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Most of us got in this business to have fun with sound, let's not forget to have fun with sound!

[@johnwilliamson467]

It called R+D . Those who can not learn from the least of us can not learn from any of us . Very thought provoking . Know what the machine is not what you wish it was . A fine craftsman knows his machine and what it takes to achieve the desired end result . Dave you are a master craftsman.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍🤙

[@maxatorium]

I love this, some of these comments seem to come from people who don’t know the legacy of Rat Round

[@DaveRat]

Well, I am not sure credibility is necessary for something to have a high probability of being accurate, but it does help with deciding whether to investigate the more controversial ideas further.

[@StephenTack]

DECORROLATING sound! I'm a dealer/integrator for Tectonic Pro Audio (based in Woodinville WA), because I believe in the unique technology. One reason l love their "Distributed Mode Loudspeaker" (DML) panels is because the sound radiating from the large flat driver is decorrelated. Different frequencies come from different places, and thereby take different paths to the listener. This results in a more natural character to the sound compared to the experience of a point-source PA, and also has interesting implications regarding acoustic reflections, and feedback. If you haven't you should play with some Tectonic DMLs, Dave. Cheers!

[@DaveRat]

I am pretty familiar with Tectonic and flat panels. In get I use an NXT panel in the next vid in the series.

[@StephenTack]

@@DaveRat the newest Tectonic "DML-500" series is pretty well engineered and tuned. They reproduce well from about 100Hz to 19KHz, and other than a high-pass filter, they don't need any processing to sound really good. 🤗

[@DaveRat]

Good stuff. The feedback contr seems to be quite good, not off a is and in front of the speakers on the ones I've heard. The ones Ive heard did exhibit a fig 8 type coverage patterns with an excellent null 90 off axis. The challenge was the rear energy was higher than conventional systems which may be non ideal for some applications. I've yet to see flat panel radiator that seals off or prevents energy radiating out the back. That said, not against and actually like the open sound of speakers with open back sound

[@StephenTack]

The coverage is excellent, and rooms need less treatment to sound great, but there are different considerations when designing a system around DMLs...sound goes everywhere. But reflected sound (from the front or back of the panels) doesn't have as much of a deleterious effect on clarity as you'd expect from a conventional loudspeaker. I designed and installed a wide 650 seat sanctuary with 6 DML mains, 4 DML under balcony fills, and 6 DMLs as monitors under grates in the stage, along with 2 x 2x12" and 2 x 2x18" subs. It's unconventional, but sounds great, and the coverage is shockingly consistent...and even in halls and behind bleachers where there is no line of site to any DML the sound is still clear and intelligible.

[@Corri42]

Sound techs can be a grumpy bunch on the best of days, even worse on Reddit where it's full of "know-it-all" armchair experts haha! I've learnt a lot more from your videos than I have browsing their posts! Keep making your awesome videos, you approach subjects that most don't, and make us think of sound from a different perspective 🤘

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Alex and let's keep this fun!

[@quipsta]

The very fact you have an enduro bike with matching road case proves you have great common sense and problem solving abilities. I love your approach and creativity keep on exploring ! As the Reddit thread raged I actually tried out your theory on a live gig, splitting a bass mic and bass DI left and right. Full house. Got full compliments from audience and band alike. As the bass player had a loud orange rig on stage it meant we had 3 different signals hitting the crowd - bass di PA left, Orange bass rig, Mic PA right. I didn't get to do any tests as we were short of time but sounded great, rich and full in a room which can be tricky with bass. Its a nice simple fix to an obvious problem.

[@DaveRat]

This is all so cool. And yes, touring with a street legal dirt bike was awesome! The freedom to explore around the venues,, transportation on days off. So fun!

[@quipsta]

@@DaveRat Not in the same league but I love taking my mountain bike to festivals and touring round the stages listening to the rigs and chilling between shifts. Great to go and chase a mic or di quickly too!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@MixmasterMegz767]

In the end of your video I saw the cat8 box. Days now I've been searching for it on your website. Can't wait to buy me a few

[@DaveRat]

They will be out soon. Almost done

[@ianwollstein8974]

Any sound guy who doesn’t need to learn anything new each time they mix a show is questionable. Try and experience new ways of operation and get better at what you do as an engineer I say. Thank you Dave for reminding us and encouraging us to be better. 🤓❤️

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Ian!!

[@Edwin-van-der-Putten]

Thanks, Dave, for more insights! 🙂

[@DaveRat]

Cool cool Edwin

[@Chris-em4tc]

Dave, I am Team Rat 100%. I love your videos and the way you explain things. These response videos are absolutely hilarious. You’re the man Dave!! BTW, when I was 17 (I’m 38 now) living in Boston, I told my mom I wanted to do sound. SHE was the one that was like, there’s this guy Dave Rat. You need to look him up and maybe you can talk to him. No lie, true story.

[@DaveRat]

Wow and that rules and yay mom!

[@teaman7v]

Loving this series, Dave. You're a great communicator

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jonathan

[@duroxkilo]

you can;t put a price on curiosity :}, coupled w/ experience it's pure bliss :} thanks mr Dave for sharing, wish you all the best

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Durox!

[@stephenstange4194]

I love the practical way you explain complex concepts. I always learn a lot watching your videos. … I don’t ride a motorcycle, but I might start just to be able to tell the back story!

[@DaveRat]

Saying I am doing a good job at explains complex subject in simple ways is the best compliment anyone can me. Thank you

[@grantbovee]

Thank You Dave, God Bless

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Grant!

[@MrMotoden]

Who DOESN'T need an enduro in a road case? That's the real question.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@FOH3663]

"If you strive to be the best at your craft, it's going to take its toll ... whether it's worth it or not is for each to determine" Isn't that the truth

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@jameswalkerbassandkeyboard7644]

Most profound festival advice ever: "...if you need an enduro in a road case let me know."

[@DaveRat]

Fun right!!

[@spick1923]

There are two types of education: Type 1: that teaches people how to reiterate a concept they don't adequately comprehend Type 2: that teaches people how to think critically making useful value judgements of the world around them Sadly type one is having a deleterious effect on many minds. I don't blame the individual, I blame the failing of the institution. The institution of Rat has never let me down, always aiding type 2 thinking!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@ericdeweese3748]

In talking about theatre LAV mics, would delaying one mic not help/fix the combing and phase issues you described versus running two PAs? Thanks.

[@DaveRat]

Have not tried it but it should just alter the combfiltering frequencies. The main issue is electronically combining 3 versions of the same signal. Acoustically combining will introduce some decorrelation and reduce the intensity of any issues. Delaying will alter the frequencies but not the intensity. Having separate sounds coming from separate speakers or separate points in space tends to offer a more natural and desirable sound

[@bonescheffel7795]

I saw RHCP with the double hang in Toronto (Stadia Arcadia tour??)...It sounded amazing. Every note up and down Flea's bassneck had the same weight and timbre (kudos to the player I'm sure). Anthony was even mostly in tune... Dave- do you do Subs on an aux? In the double hang, are they eq'd the same?

[@DaveRat]

I did subs on 2 auxes. One left and one right if I recall correctly

[@danialdevostmusic]

i just want to see the bike in the road case, I am so curious how that works haha

[@DaveRat]

I will post pics at some point gotta find the pics!

[@ronsheehan]

Dave, the Grateful Dead briefly used their Wall of Sound PA system to create exactly what you are referring to as recreating the spatial perception of the natural world.

[@DaveRat]

Yes and in one of the upcoming videos I will show a picture of Black Flag playing through miniature version of the grateful dead setup in 1985 using the Rat PA they were touring with. Clarity - awesome Sightlines - awesome Pa behind the band and alfarther from the audience - yuck

[@cartergreeves9302]

My man! I did break 420 likes on this video! I’ve been doing “sound” in various roles for a decade now, and I have a lot to learn! That being said, Reddits a wild place of good and bad advice. My keyboard sure gets a work out on Reddit when I don’t have any gigs. Sounds like a common problem based on these videos. It’s easy to critique when you’re not road worn after a 16 hour day. (I hear that white gloves make it hard to type too.)

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@Dan-ii3oo]

Ahh my all time favorite dude on KZbin. Calmest coolest collected cat out there. Peace from Australia..Yell out when you are down under next and we can go for a skate ✌️.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and cant wait to get back down under!!

[@andrewhowie6646]

My favorite sound in the natural world is my local Australian magpie, The song birds sounds are all around us communicating across wide and deep spaces. The magpie has a very complex and specific song to the individual bird but they will finish each others call. Tell me that time difference in space isn't part of their wider sense of where they are relative to each other in the air and on the land!

[@DaveRat]

Yes! This is the sonic landscape of nature

[@mickeymiguel2726]

Dave Rat is absolutely right!

[@DaveRat]

🔧🔧🔧

[@mickeymiguel2726]

Dave Rat 🎸!

[@mrdikasun]

Can you clarify if you are sending different signals to the LEFT and RIGHT or to LEFT left and RIGHT right? If you know what I mean. Are the double arrays getting different signals between them or is it literally spread across the arena with different mics/signals? Weird thing to put into text... LEFT left STAGE right RIGHT

[@DaveRat]

Both. LL bass and Guut and cymbals, L vox K/S toms RR and R same instruments but differing panning and mics as LL and L So two stereo rigs

[@tasteapiana]

There's some kind of disconnect in many brains about putting weird sources into a singular box and expecting the box to spit out non-weird signals. The thought of putting even a 4 piece band into a mixer, individually, piece by piece, and it then coming out of a singular stereo rig making any sense borders upon a belief in voodoo, all in itself, no matter who you are or what your experiences. I've come to the belief that there are just two different kinds of music fans (or listeners) - 1) those who want the option to selectively listen to an instrument or vocalist that they hold a specific interest in, for example, a drummer at a Dream Theater show, and 2) those who prefer the sound of a ''band'' all smushed together so that you can't tell where the bass ends and the guitar begins, can't differentiate a slapped bass note from a kick beater. You can't satisfy them both. Ok, maybe, if you punch the type 2 guy in the face they'll both be happy but you can't do it with a mix, bruh lol

[@DaveRat]

People do latch on and defend familiar to extreme levels

[@joebecks6885]

Hi Dave. Thanks so much for your educational videos. Please can you do another set of headphone tests to determine the best sets of headphones to get on the market now. The ones you recommended more than 12 years ago are either discontinued or overly expensive. Looking for a good headphone within the $100 range Thanks from Ghana

[@DaveRat]

I will ponder doing that

[@danielfmyers]

The problem with the internet is that people think their opinion should hold equal weight to other opinions, and that opinions are equal to facts even when contradictory.

[@DaveRat]

The less that people are held accountable for their actions and words, the more reckless they become with both

[@iswm]

It didn't used to be this way. Reddit in particular was known for having a fairly high level of thoughtful and insightful discourse. Unfortunately we're now eating the bitterly woke fruits of Generation Equity.

[@v12alpine]

@@iswm reddit is brain aids

[@DaveRat]

Well, must admit that I find reslading the divert6 of perspectives to be informative and sometimes disappointing but also reality is not always shiney.

[@Jeff4014]

Dave, once again an amazing video! Can I ask you something about john frusciante's sound? Did you pan one.amp.to the left and the other amp to the right? Or did you have a little bit of both in each speaker (soft panning)?, When you listen to a rhcp concert with headphones on, you can clearly hear that the only the wet amp is goong to the left Speaker, but in a live situation would the audience who where in the left part of the stadium only hear a dry sound and the other side of the stadium.would hear his wet amp??

[@DaveRat]

8 made sure both sides of the audience could hear wet and dry mix. Neither was pure wet or dry though 6ge mix between wet and dry varied from left to right similar to being on stage and walking across

[@Jeff4014]

@@DaveRat interesting answer..!! Would frusciante let you add some compression to his sound? I mean he is really demanding with the pureness of his sound... I dont think he would ever let.someone add compression to his sound, or maybe i am Wrong

[@DaveRat]

I didn't do anything to alter his sound. That said if certain effects were way louder or too quiet I would adjust them accordingly to make sure that they were audible and a compressor set properly is just a volume control that makes those adjustments automatically

[@Jeff4014]

@@DaveRat amazing man!! Thank god you give us the opportunity to talk to you and learn from you...god bless you man!

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@teodorzimta748]

Hi dave! What do you think of brands like funktion one / void acoustics

[@DaveRat]

I love the diversity of sound systems available. Those systems are very dynamic and transient punchy. For pre order music that has most of the punch reduced or to make recordings more active and live, those systems are awesome. For live music that is really dynamic already, those systems tend to be a bit more work to dial in. They work well up to a certain venue size but don't scale as well to really big as systems using a more modular all in one box approach.

[@Tarnith]

I haven't run live sound PAs beyond some basic setups, but I'm definitely familiar with decorrelation when it comes to stereo widening in a studio context and the research that's been done lately for both reverbs and mono-compatible stereo widening. Have you experimented at all with taking stereo decorrelation DSP (Something similar to what Izotope is doing with their newer widener, velvet noise decorrelation) and feeding a mono signal into both PAs? I'd be really curious to see how the decorrelation algorithm holds up in a live sound setting, might allow more flexibility in running mono sources through multiple close sets of speakers (Generate a stereo decorrelated output from a mono, and route each channel into adjacent PAs) I know decorrelation ends up being used in higher order ambisonics systems to prevent combing as well, what you're describing with the live mix setup makes a lot of sense. Really enjoying these videos, giving me a lot to think about in terms of live sound setups, cheers

[@DaveRat]

I have some exposure to processing that decorrelated but have not mixes shows using it so I don't have guidance or an opinion on that. I am curious to here how various ideas work for differing applications.

[@BUPETA3351]

Listened to Rammstein last week in Oslo, insane sound in the open. The rumor says it's 2.2 MegaWats L-Acoustics. What's the most you've been rigging/mixing? Awesome content as always!

[@DaveRat]

2.2 megawatts! Well that is a lot and I dont know the details but can offer some info. Each of the latest L-Acoustics amp racks has 3 amps each with 4 channels of 3300 watts, so about 40K watts per rack if full driven and loaded, so about 55 amp racks. Though larger companies do combine the amps into bigger racks, we do that for bigger tours as well. Each amp will drive 4 subs or 2 K1 or 3 K2, so figure an average of 3 boxes per amp and 3 amps per rack so around 500 boxes or so. That is a decent sized rig! For reference, we deploy about 1200 boxes for 7 stages at Coachella not including monitor systems, though I have not done a power calc on Coachella, its up there in the 4 megawatt region but that is for 7 stages.

[@BUPETA3351]

@@DaveRat awesome, thank you!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@richardbelisle4807]

I wouldn’t give ‘‘em the time of day Dave… Here’s my thought no matter what words and seeming knowledge we have which of course allows us to talk about the same thing…. When you are 60-100 feet back and some one on stage says hello into a mic.that hello travels through cables amps processing console..ect in a instant it is heard….what a mystery. ☯️☯️❤️😀🙏🏼

[@DaveRat]

But if I ignore them then I would not have this 5 video series! One more this friday

[@kentthompson1251]

Wondering if these same concepts could work with unwanted summation?

[@DaveRat]

Fully decorrelated signals don't cancel or sum as they are unrelated. That said, it is fairly easy to capture decorellated HF using multiple mics, decorrelating lower frequencies becomes increasingly difficult as the wavelength increases. A combination of multiple methods can offer varying levels of results

[@artisansound1807]

Ah! 6:46 - you mention my biggest problem in running sound for musical theater: comb filtering on lavaliere mics when singers are standing close to each other and singing right at each other. I always try to mitigate the effect by moving the volume faders of the two mics until it’s better, but you have to be extremely nimble because if they turn their heads away from each other you need to change the balance again. Any ideas on how to fix this systemically?

[@DaveRat]

Run each mic into a separate speaker. Let the signals acoustically combine rather than electronically

[@artisansound1807]

@@DaveRat maybe panning hard L/R for these (few) moments would be the best solution. We have a theater-in-the-round setup with stereo speakers pointing in 4 directions. I’ll try that. Thank!!!

[@DaveRat]

Or at least moderately LR panned. Even a 6 dB differential is way better than mono for reducing comb and cancel

[@BingTheCheeser]

Would love to know more about the Cat Box 8 you show at the end of your videos. Does this product exist?

[@DaveRat]

Yes it exists, we are awaiting packaging to be delivered. A call to Soundtools will get you more info and possible access to units now if needed while we wait for the printed stuff to arrive.

[@BingTheCheeser]

@@DaveRat That's awesome, thanks for the content and the reply!

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@sneakerset]

We'd go out on the bikes Sat. mornings, and strip the speakers out of curbside junk - building our own headphones and speaker arrays. I used the Recycler all the time, too - Gunter's girls were fast and friendly. Someday I'll wire a mic system into the rails on a board, just so I can record that zipping sound on a late takeoff. Thanks for education and inspiration, Dave.

[@DaveRat]

All great stuff! Thank you

[@daavneeq]

The natural sound bits, have these guys ever heard the term ‘sound stage’ it’s like they are thinking a whole band is stuck behind one mic and the engineer only has one ear.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@HeyVlad]

The Experts Should Contribute, Not Criticize, But Contribute to The RATMOS Sound Format!

[@sidgillespie5879]

Hi Dave! Just starting to learn sound and your videos are very valuable and I'm glad you responded to that reddit post. Would you consider having more videos targeted at novices? PS - we have your sound systems at the event company where I work.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome Sid! As far as videos targeted at novice I would like to do more but there are lots of great sound humans doing vids like that and I feel my best time is spent covering aspects that others do not

[@imark7777777]

in bluegrass music the musicians were walk in and out of the performance space usually in front of 1 microphone this dates back to when there was only one microphone and also two individually adjust balance between members and instruments. well no it's not part of live sound reproduction it is partly out of the move to stereo that began in the studio and slowly rolled out as the cost reduced. i could then go in and talk about the "wall of sound" excellent wikipedia page. in the early days of PA systems microphones and instruments were routed to multiple separate systems and speakers until somebody figured out they could condense things.

[@DaveRat]

Back in1985 when testing a wall of sound setup while out on Black Flag tour, we found several things. 1 it is very clear having seperate sources for each elinateument and vocal 2 the sound system was farther away from the audience being behind the band which made things less loud for the audience 3 having differing sounds come from differing speakers did not allow all or large groups of the speakers to work in unison and that reduced maximum output volume, needed more speakers 4 putting the sound system behind the band sucks as it bleeds into all the mics even when using dual polarity reversed mics. Loud sound blasting into mics. This test and info was a smanbutvery important and useful in my decades long quest to understand and refine sound reinforcement.

[@imark7777777]

@@DaveRat fascinating oh that should be a top comment. separating of the sources is interesting and we do that sort of with subs. and only sending necessary signals through monitors hopefully otherwise combining signals can conflict. But positioning of speakers terrible just terrible but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater to often. that must’ve been one learning experience although not something I ever really want to have to work on. Faultfinding alone. I Just did a blues band, harmonica amp, bass amp, 10w electric guitar amp, drums… oh yeah I did have the electric guitar, kick and the vocals through the system which had to be screaming loud over the drum kit in a small setting. Wall of sound almost everything behind. And it wasn’t my system so had side fills and rear fills and monitors for a 50 x 50 area. Surprisingly no feedback with no outboard EQ just using a 12ch Mackie.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@hxllwich]

Hell yea. Learn so much every time.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙🤙

[@braydenbarriault6879]

What are the chances we could get a short video showing us the bike and the case? Great video

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Will see what I can do. Need to fix the bike, ride it to the rat shop and get the case forked down from the loft. Will work on it

[@calebgrundyson2688]

love these videos!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Caleb

[@bestkoreanjesus]

OH YES!!!! WHAT A BLESSING!!!

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@keith7863]

Hey Dave... Really dig your reddit responses! But, maybe it's time to show these boys the real deal with double hung PA. I can show you my setup on the x32 if you want. That said... You mentioned you had drums and vocals in one, guitars and bass in the other. I have mine set up, drums, guitars and vocals, bass in the other. I throw keys in with vocals and sax, horns in with the guitars. I haven't changed it around much. What is your opinion on the splits? vocals with drums or bass? Or does it depend? And I will admit that some of the best creativity and innovations came from blunts... LOL!

[@DaveRat]

Agreed and the splits sound good, I didn't put bass with vocals but I also had Flea on bass with more bass HF than most bands. And the bass HF was stepping on vox a bit fighting for the v-dosc 6.5" mid range speakers

[@indochinapatriot435]

Love it, your so good! I can tweak with the best of them, ( I will admit when i used to get the AES rag, my eyes would roll back and then my head exploded) but ya gota doit, an then out for cocktails you spurt out , Ohh, that’s what that means! Embarrassing, but your friends are used to it. I love your temperament. If you’re truly a master, you can explain anything to a 6 year old. 🏄🏼☮️

[@DaveRat]

Thank you IP!

[@imark7777777]

and i thought i was crazy for bringing a scooter with me. another youtuber i ran across brings an electric scooter to film sets. makes complete sense those venues are large! Edit If road legal also very handy for those last-minute emergency RadioShack runs.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@artysanmobile]

So far, my takeaway: Twitter people drink, Reddit people get stoned.

[@DaveRat]

That's funny!

[@HazeAnderson]

Nowhere on your burger is hot dog or a pizza. Yet hot dogs and pizzas exist. Will you now argue that hot dogs and pizza are the only kinds of acceptable toppings for a burger? 🤣

[@DaveRat]

And yet all of the above are legit ingredients for spaghetti toppings in some form or another

[@dustinthiessen]

one time I was working a festival, there was burgers and pizza for dinner, and I definitely put a slice of pizza on a burger, and it was unbelievable lol

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍 and that is how great creations are born

[@HazeAnderson]

While the color analogy was interesting and provided more room for thought, I believe ultimately two things: #1 color and sound vibrate in two distinct domains and this sets them very apart from each other #2 our brain perceives color and sound in radically different ways (and I have never actually met anyone in person that told me they had synesthesia).

[@DaveRat]

The concept that sound sources we encourer naturallyradiate from differing points in space but with sound reinforcement we combine multiple sources to radiate from single points ish like speakers, horns, arrays and such And that in nature, multiple identical sounds do not really exist like multiple identical snowflakes or trees or humans exist Does not really have anything to do with human perception Separately, whether humans can percieve that sounds radiate from differing locations or can percieve whether multiple sounds radiate from a single point, is also of interest

[@ErikAnders]

Brilliant

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@KimonoEtrange]

Do you mean feeding both PA via different busses or panning both sources on each side? Thank you for sharing. Always good to hear from you.

[@kristenpetillon5671]

I guess you can use matrixes to do that on consoles...

[@KimonoEtrange]

@@kristenpetillon5671 I know, it just wasn't clear to me in his explanation. I'm also no where near his level of experience. ✌️

[@DaveRat]

I ran all my channels to 10 subgroups with compression, as I do when I mix on a normal stereo pa. Then took the outputs of the subgroup compressors and put y cables so they returned to 20 subgroups. 10 for inner pa and 10 for outer pa Ran the inner pa from matrix 1 and 2 and outer from matrix 3 and 4 I could then bring up the vox inner subgroups or outer, guit inner or outer and so on. So I could send any instrument to either inner or outer. Also had a VCA for all inner groups and a VCA for all outer groups.

[@RAILWAY_FILMS]

OMG ! ! ! ! O M G ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! that is HILAREOUS. I am not even going to fix my spelling on this comment. why do people get so mad. I have been mixing for at least 20 years for sure and grew up in a band house. I will say I have met you Mr Rat. I am a nobody in the music biz but I was working at a show and you were there and you have a furry carpet and I had absolutely no idea who you were and I talked to you for like over an hour and still had no clue who you were. (for one it was early in a festival and your band hadn't come up yet).. my friend was there, he is another foh guy and we went back on the bus and he said OMG DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU WERE JUST TALKING TO ? ? ? ? ? THAT WAS DAVE RAT ! ! ! I had no idea. he said HES THE SOUND GUY FOR THE HEADLINERS.. I was like ? for RHCP? YEAH YEAH I was like what the hell is he talking about ? I don't even remember, I remember your massive thick furry ruck you were taking a nap on more than anything.. you told me something custom you had done to your midas console and your backup also had it. I think I was following you I mean you literally pulled out a channel and showed me something?? No clue now what that was you showed me. It was some kind of upgrade (I think) that you did to every single channel on these two huge midas boards. no clue. anyways I think it is just fantastic to see that people give you stupid hard time in comments. People give me hard times too some times. I wonder if you would be as positive as you are if you had never worked for some of the awesome bands that you have ????? answer is "probably yes" if you ask me. because I can tell you what. You really handled that comment SO nicely. I mean if you can do it, then I can do it right??? (I'm talking about being nice when people come at you out of no where for no reason with no clue) see, you can already see the jadedness but I'm working on it.

[@RAILWAY_FILMS]

DUDE NO WAY. NO FRICKEN WAY. I paused the video to read that last comment. I had a DR 200. that sucker burns oil on the highway. I love dual sports. sorry not interested in that but its the greatest story ever having one in a road case.

[@DaveRat]

Good stuff and great to meet ya again

[@downriverproductions]

Love these Dave lol

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Josh!

[@kuglepen64]

Reddit has nurtured the dumb and the counter factual, and now there is nothing of value left.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, I actually find the glimpse into alternate peespectives to have some value, even if frictionalat times

[@Chillidude22]

r/livesound is great, as long as you bring your own brain with you. Lots of helpful people there, but sometimes you'll get someone who comes in with either a contrarian opinion or blatantly wrong info, and the discussion which comes about is often a great way to learn new things from all the viewpoints coming together in one spot. As for the rest of Reddit... well that's a different story

[@DaveRat]

👍🔧👍

[@kristenpetillon5671]

Hi Dave. Thanks for sharing some.of your techniques. First of all I hope you won’t burn out by trying to convinced idiots that only wish to Troll you. Talking about main PA in a double configuration. I get it and it makes sense of course. I have a question. In the case of a double main PA system what do you send in the side fills or additional PA mid length of audience. Could you share some advices or what is your way to reduce phasing issues for these? Thanks again for sharing.... that’s what all internet should be about... no trolling.

[@DaveRat]

Since the signals sent to the two pa systems are completely non correlated, they can be combined for outer fills, center fils and delay clusters with no issues

[@freelance_commie]

So many times people are quick to dismiss something as “woo” or just dismiss something, and then when they go to back it up they prove they lack the foundation and/or critical thinking skills to even show that they have cohesion between different ideas.

[@DaveRat]

Fresh idea and new perspectives are often met with loads of doubt and resistance. All good.

[@ksinghldn]

great content

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!!

[@JustinVodden]

Hahaha! Dave said "do-do"

[@DaveRat]

😯😯

[@dougaltolan3017]

A bike in a road case.... Ohh dear ohh dear ohh dear... Who was it said "if you have roadies, you need flight cases. If you have flight cases, you need roadies"? I think it was one of the 70's London rock bands.

[@DaveRat]

Road cases!!

[@rashofbeatings]

How much for the Suzuki in road case? lol

[@DaveRat]

Thinking around a $1000 for the set but prob need to come pick up from Camarillo Ca

[@rashofbeatings]

@@DaveRat Wow that's a steal of a price... i should have booked a trip to CA for next week instead of going to Florida lol

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@michaellambie8427]

Great session Dave

[@DaveRat]

👍🔧👍

[@stehfreejesseah7893]

I would love to buy his dirt bike with the road case.

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@MrHabSpass]

In music industry, they have understood how to almost make sound naturally. Think about ATMO Sound. Think about Surround sound.

[@DaveRat]

Have you ever sat in an area covered by at os or surround and closed your eyes and went "Whoa, I can't tell the diffence between this sound system and really being at a concert or being somewhere else?" Of does all that just sound similar but never so real you are unable to tell the difference? I have been to a personal Atmos demo at a Disney audio studio And heard amazing sound systems and if you ever hear something so real you can't tell the difference, pleas tell me because I have bees searching for that for many years

[@michaelnc4450]

Great post Dave👍

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@thizzyglider555]

Some People on Reddit remind me of the song by Primus HERE COME THE BASTARDS

[@DaveRat]

Fun! Yeah, but Reddit is good as well. Great place for researching products and concepts and getting honest opinion s

[@thizzyglider555]

@@DaveRat Thanks

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@dougaltolan3017]

OK... I'm afraid its biology time, with a bit of computing history added on just for good measure.... Colour vision, which is less than half of human vision, is managed by "cone cell" receptors on the retina. There are 3 distinct types of cone cell: red, green and blue. Sound is primarily sensed in the cochlea by a nerve called the spiral ganglion. Attached to that nerve are hair bundles, each bundle is of a different length. The bundles will resonate at distinct and different pitches (nature approves graphic equalisers :p). So applying a red/green/blue fudge (and any conclusion derived from it) to sound is throughly inappropriate. Now for the computery nerd bit. Computers can easily do video, but cannot do sound, not without a stink load of help. Many studio equipment companies went to the wall because of the error of thinking that since audio bandwidth is way less than video then it must be a cinch.. Wronged than a wrong thing with wrong bits on. Video is quite happy with bursts of data, so long as a complete half frame is ready every 100th of a second (yeah, I'm a brit). Audio, on the other hand.... miss the timing of just one sample and it a goes to pot. Lets see, what other bones can we pick out of this? Nature: 1 sound, multiple sources.. One word echo and reverb (OK that's 2 words) Both thoroughly natural and a very significant part of our spatial perception. Ask a blind person to describe the size, shape and texture of a room... That neatly links into natur harmonies due to noise cancellation due to differing path lengths.

[@Chillidude22]

I totally agree with your first part- the RGB analogy was laughably irrelevant in making an argument. Though when it comes to what you're saying about one sound from multiple sources being echoes/reverb, I'm not sure I agree. If I played you a recording of someone saying "hello!", and a recording of the subsequent echo off a distant cliff face, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to clearly tell the difference. Reverberated sounds are not identical to the original source which drastically (if not completely) reduces any comb filtering or irregularities that you get when you reproduce identical sounds from two speakers. Do you think you could elaborate on what you were saying about that and also your last sentence? I think you may have a point, but it feels a bit incomplete.

[@DaveRat]

Give another listen or check out my vid on issues from multiple source mono. I think I do better job at explaining there

[@dougaltolan3017]

@@Chillidude22 It takes extreme cases to demonstrate, but consider walking past a waterfall, the comb filter effect is quite distinct. However most places aren't so hard, but on the other hand there are no anechoic chambers in nature either. Im not sure if it's entirely relevant, microphones aren't ears. I recently met someone that was dismayed that their recording of a burn (small stream in Scotland) was just noise. All the richness that we hear of water burbling over rocks was gone. I think I suggested using 2 mics at right angle to each other , but didn't have any follow-up. Edit add: I'm currently listening to a waterfall nearby, due to an unsteady breeze there is a clear change in its sound over time. Might be the water falling differently or I think more likely is the way the sound exits the gully.

[@DaveRat]

Not sure exactly what you are referring to. Is it about me saying the exact same sound is not radiated from multiple point in space ? Or that in nature multiple unrelated sounds do not radiate from a single point in space? In nature yet we strive to or often do exactly those things with sound reinforcement?

[@dougaltolan3017]

@@DaveRat Does it need to be the exact same sound? How different must it be? Consider applying some eq to just one side of FoH, then send the same signal to both. Just for the sake of torture (it's something I have suffered too much) make that sound 1kHz tone. Unless the eq completely cuts 1kHz then there will still be the phase effect that causes the comb filter. Where am I going?? In the example from Henry with an echo from a cliff, he rightly points out that the returned sound will be different, but it will still be recognisable as the same sound. It's unlikely that the echo is from a single surface, so that echo is a single(ish) sound with multiple sources (each rock face) Then there is the blind guy that has learnt to ride a bicycle by echolocation. He makes a clicking sound and listens for the echos. I'm not saying that there are bands in nature that harmonise, but that by the time a sound reaches us it is no longer a pure single source. We are even able to determine the effects of reflections and build a map of our surroundings.

[@joelkulesha8284]

I love the idea of anyone thinking they are smarter than dave. Not to say he's the be all end all, but he's proven time and again that he's very smart and knows what he talks about and what he does. For even another legendary audio engineer to think they're better than him is slim to none. Anyone who actually knows shit will have respect for dave and his views and opinions. Sure they may not agree in the end or maybe they do know something more and teach him. But that first comment is sat there acting like their SO much better and smarter than dave, it just oozes insecurity. Edit: Ok, it wasn't just the first commenter. Like I get it, don't trust everything you see online, but come on. Who the hell thinks someone with daves experience and knowledge doesn't know what they're talking about?

[@DaveRat]

I've made my share of errors and mistakes and embrace being corrected. And also I have fun challenging arrogance and erroneous info propigated as fact

[@zambotv8150]

Didn't the Grateful Dead experiment with a bonkers sound system where all the instruments came from different speakers within the PA system? Great upload as ever Mr Rat

[@DaveRat]

Ha, and funny enough I cover that a bit in the next epusode

[@zambotv8150]

@@DaveRat Looking forward to watching that, isn't Kid Charlemagne written about the guy that was behind the system design? I might be talking BS, it was years ago I read about it. It trust you are well, kindest regards as ever from Glasgow Scotland

[@DaveRat]

Don't know much about the who as much as what they did and the concept. Great stuff

[@zambotv8150]

@@DaveRat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley I think I was rightg? Fascinating story, he was a chemist that made LSD and an audiophile, enjoy

[@zambotv8150]

@@DaveRat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley I think I was right? Fascinating character, chemist and audiophile

[@OwlProducer]

Rat master-senpai.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@maxrainwater]

wonder if the motorcycle sold?? GLWS

[@DaveRat]

Ha! Yes, a sound eng friend bought it

[@fullracecam1]

Got to love blunts!

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙

[@davidasher22]

Good stuff!

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@weareallbeingwatched4602]

Is there a cloudy example of a horde of musicians? Sure, it's called a symphony orchestra.

[@DaveRat]

Fun and true

[@weareallbeingwatched4602]

@@DaveRat symphony orchestra reinforcement is a whole esoteric and carefully hidden / very secret area that the vast majority of rock engineers would rub their eyes at. Most classical music listeners want to believe the music they are hearing is purely acoustic, so they don't get told what happens in the ceiling, either. It's usually very well concealed, and very high fidelity.

[@DaveRat]

I actually learned to mix on an 18 piece jazz band and 60 piece orchestra between punk gigs

[@weareallbeingwatched4602]

@@DaveRat The school room at UCS - whose theatre venue I lurked backstage in as a kid - was papered with Glenn Miller posters. I mainly hung out in the other end of the school where the lathes and milling machines were, but if you needed your kick drum pedal fixed in a hurry, I was the only person to speak to. Spent a lot of time in BBC maida vale & RFH, as well.

[@DaveRat]

Very cool

[@realSethMeyers]

Hi, I need an Enduro bike in a road case 😁

[@DaveRat]

Yes you do, I just sold it, and it's awesome

[@caleykelly]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@DaveRat]

🤙🤙🤙