Music Chat: My Calamitous Henze Incident

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

That's fantastic! Henze as I got to know him. His incredible vanity inspired the german author (and librettist of Henze) Hans Ulrich Treichl for his novel "Tristanakkord". Henze was communist (a real communist, not a socialist), he adored Fidel Castro (as many european artists did), but lived in a castle-like villa near Rome. You can find pictures. I asked him, if this isn't a treason of his left-wing believes. He answered: A communist in a Rolls-Royce is better than a fascist in a tank. What a vain person! Your answer was perfect! Penderecki - HE was a real great man!

[@davesmusictank1]

Thanks.

[@bbailey7818]

Marvelous. And yes, what a contrast to Penderecki.

[@hyperaticism]

Sounds like a high rank East German party official

[@bomcabedal]

I had my own confrontation with Henze by helping to spoil what may have been the premiere of Henze's Third Violin Concerto in 1996. My friend (who I won't drop in it) and I attended a concert in the Berlin Schauspielhaus. I think it was Dvorak after the break, so we decided to sit out the Henze (not my cup of tea, but I guessed I might be positively surprised). At one point after what felt like an eternity of bleeps and boinks the violinist made a dramatic gesture, which we (not just the two of us, mind you) interpreted as the end of the piece. So we started applauding, only to be met by vicious stares from violinist and conductor. Clearly, this particular masterpiece had not yet reached its end. To make matters (considerably) worse, we were sat behind the orchestra in the choir benches, and therefore in direct view of the conductor but more significantly the TV cameras that recorded the performance. After recoveringt their composure, everyone continued the performance. We decided to make for the exit at the first possible opportunity and forego the Dvorak.

[@mikewinter2235]

LOVED IT! Your letter to him was a model of diplomacy, but some people are beyond reason. Great job.

[@benjaminharris2043]

This was a very amusing story. Possibly one of my fave videos of yours on here!

[@neilcameronable]

What a jaw dropping vid....amazing story.Made my afternoon.

[@luigi9163]

There have been many interesting works in the twentieth century, but for me, 2 composers dominate this century: Henze and Ligeti. Henze was the most gifted composer of his time, leaving an immense catalog and an impressive number of works of the highest quality. He was a musician who wrote in all styles with extraordinary ease. In fact, all the characteristics of a genius! Unfortunately, I can't think of any composer today who even remotely matches his level.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Henze did write some good music, but he was the biggest jerk I've ever met--I made a video about it. I would never call him a "genius."

[@luigi9163]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I've mentioned the musician. According to those who knew Henze, his character was not the most pleasant. As for his private life, I'd say it was not at all in keeping with his political views. I saw your video. It was a truly regrettable incident and I can imagine what your state of mind was. Your letter was very diplomatic and I think you showed a lot of restraint. I didn't write that Henze was a genius, I only mentioned that all the ingredients were there. I'll say that for me, he's nominated...-:)

[@ianpunter4486]

I filmed Henze in Julian Bream's house. The humourous part was Henze referring to the 'Gold Discs' on the wall, and JB revealing with a twinkle, that he had wondered what the gold LP actually was. He had retrieved one from its case and found that the grooves actually produced music on his player. I forget if it was the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, but Henze collapsed with laughter, as did we all.

[@DvdAndrsn]

One of my teachers, an aesthetician, was asked by Henze (he said) to write an essay on HWH's Heliogabalus imperator for a volume on musical aesthetics in a series that Henze edited. Heliogabalus (which isn't a bad piece by HWH standards) is notorious for depicting a phallus in music. My teacher claimed to be able to tell that Henze was trying to depict colors in the music (I don't remember if via orchestration or other means), and he claimed HWH was amazed that someone could figure that out. Two egos working in tandem there. My own several degrees of separation story with Henze is I saw a copy of the vocal score of his Elegy for Young Lovers for sale, and it had been used at the Glyndebourne premiere, and all the singers and conductor (John Pritchard) had signed the title page, and right in the middle was a scrawl that I recognized right away but the seller didn't seem to know what he had, Henze's signature. I snatched it up. If it only had Auden and Kallman's signatures too, but I'm guessing they left early; reportedly they bumped into John Christie strolling the grounds, he asked them who they were, they said they'd written the libretto, he shook his head sadly and said "You really shouldn't have."

[@mangstadt1]

El Señor Embajador. Said with a chuckle. In some previous life you must have been an ambassador.

[@michaelmiller641]

Brilliant! That was entertaining!

[@jdistler2]

Just delicious, Dave! Sometime you'll have to do a video about our correspondence with George Walker!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Oy! Don't remind me!

[@patrickhows1482]

William Walton was a mentor to the young Henze when he first went to Italy in the 50s. Susana Walton in 'Behind the Facade' comments on seeing Henze at the height of of his 'Cuban' period with his entourage.

[@stradivariouspaul1232]

Just seen this, great story!

[@VallaMusic]

Your reply letter was extremely diplomatic - except for that last part ! ha ha But if Henze was a sensible, decent human being then he would have enjoyed your frankness and gotten a good laugh.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

I agree that much of his work will be forgotten, but allow me to mention three lovely pieces that rise above the grey, over-written mediocrity of most of his unself-critical output:1. Cantata della fiaba estrema 2. Nachtstücke und Arien and 3. Doppio Concerto for oboe and harp. These show what he was capable befor communism rotted his powers of judgement. (I also have time for The Bassarids, especially the second half.

[@jackdahlquist2977]

While arrogant and boorish behavior are always to be deplored, it must also be said that the world of musicmaking is no place for shrinking violets. Even the most talented figure, in music and elsewhere, will not accomplish much without a very pronounced ego. To speak just of composers, if we assemble a list of the several dozen greatest of them, we would soon have to face the fact that, considering how many liars, cheaters, backstabbers, adulterers, philanderers, racists, sexists, and fascists are among them, they are, by and large, a pretty bad lot. We wouldn't want most of them as friends. Ultimately, it's the music that matters, right? Also, for what it's worth, when I was a music student, Penderecki condescended to pay my school an hour-long visit, and struck me as a rude, arrogant jerk. He had little to say, and we spent most of the time listening to the recently-released recording of his endlessly dreary First Violin Concerto, which is possibly the most boring item in my record collection. Henze's quasi-adolescent political posturing was indeed silly and annoying, but he eventually abandoned most of it and managed to admit, in his memoirs, that his belief in and hopes for Castro's Cuba turned out to be delusional. He wrote his share of clunkers but also a lot of strong, impressive, even beautiful works. For me, repeated listening proves Henze to be a much better composer than Penderecki. His best work is of greater substance and durability while we'll always be able to check out Penderecki if we watch The Shining.

[@1-JBL]

A magnificent tale. Inflated egos beg to be punctured. I never had any experiences with the man personally, of course, but I quickly learned that musically there was Henze being Henze and Henze being Stockhausen. The former he did quite well, if his style appealed to you. The latter he could not do at all, though he seemed more and more bent on achieving it, becoming ever more unlistenable and uninteresting with each effort. EL CIMARRON, the ne plus ultra of Henze being Stockhausen, may well have been the worst thing I ever heard on the Deutsche Grammophon label. On the other hand, I might spin some of the other stuff tonight. Maybe the Barcarola, or Musen Siciliens.

[@bloodgrss]

As I catch up with your past video's, Dave, I found this one very funny! Reminded me of behaviors of some artists I have known personally, too. And, reminded me of Wagner, who expected everyone to support him unflinchingly; even angrily writing to one he should have brought a box of fine wine with him to a dinner instead of drinking Wagner's' own swill! Then also writing to a young friend, whose father had just died, a letter beginning "So now you are rich", then asking for an enormous sum of money! Genius can forgive them, as some have referenced Britten here? Just not such lesser men; they merely look like buffoons. I remember a wonderful English Professor of mine (famous in long past days, Dr. Bergen Evens) who said there is a temptation for artists who have struggled to get famous and successful, to take themselves too seriously once they are, or when they get old. Near the end of his life, the poet Wordsworth (who proves, in tandem with your stated position about violinists, they are best when young), as an old man wrote rather bad poetry but WAS Poet Laureate. As he was walking one day, his hat blew off. Someone retrieved it and brought it back to him. Wordsworth took it back and said: "Wordsworth thanks you." As Dr. Evans said, when you start referring to yourself in the third person, there is little hope left for the artist. Henze's letter to you is of such pretension's...

[@Stephen_Pettitt]

Why has my earlier comment been deleted?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

What earlier comment?

[@richmelvin2]

If it was not for Henze's 'Undine', dir Knussen, I would not listen to (most) of his other works. In addition to Undine, his early symphonies are ok but the ideological works are worthy of skipping 'en masse' - a waste of time. Great story David!!

[@henrygingercat]

I met him a few times in the 70s at his humble London dwelling just behind Harrods in impoverished Knightsbridge. Arrogance personified made worse by his sycophantic horde of followers - not that different from Britten - who somehow thought that his pseudo-serial outpourings would raise working-class consciousness to revolutionary fervour. I'm still waiting.

[@ftumschk]

At least Britten wrote some great music! I have some Henze, but I can't remember when I last listened to any.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

I know enough about Brittens behaviour, because I got to know one of his secretaries. But one must admit that Britten was a genius. Henze has not a single work one can compare with "Billy Budd", "The Turn of the Screw" or the "War Requiem". Britten created a style, which, rooted in Purcell and Stravinski, was his own. Henze never managed this. He just had the luck that the styles he wrote in where ones of lesser known composers like Fortner, Dessau and Hartmann.

[@henrygingercat]

@@edwinbaumgartner5045 Buggery on the Bounty is not one of my favourites but I agree that Britten was the superior composer. I was at the premier of Henze's vast song cycle Voices and have to admit it was hugely impressive at the time but looking back on it every movement was actually a pastiche, albeit a very good one, of other composers.

[@geraldparker8125]

Rather the idea of Theodore Adorno, too, equally misplaced hope for the Proletariat, who have better things to do than to coddle the Avant-garde,

[@davesmusictank1]

I am a leftie but totally agree that being a leftie in luxurious opulence is an oxymoron. Makes him a hypocrite and a total ass. But so often with these composers, you have to unlink the music from the man. Wagner was an antisemite but his music, on the whole, was great. As with Henze - I have the six symphonies on a double CD and I still play them nonetheless but not as often as Berio, Nono, Ligeti, or Penderecki.

[@charlescoleman5509]

I personally have been very fortunate in that my own music has been performed by the London Symphony, Cincinnati Symphony, San Francisco and a few other amazing groups and conductors who like what I have to offer. Although this kind of thing happens irregularly, it’s better than nothing. And unlike Henze, I try to keep my humility intact. No idea if being humble helps or hurts one’s career, but that’s my cross to bare. Great video as always, David!

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

In fairness, he wasn’t without humility. David’s story shows how contradictory people can be. Henze was invited to give a talk on his music at the place where I was studying in London and he said he’d rather see the student’s work. He was very charming, and perceptive.

[@walkure48]

I wonder how Henze treated the folks at Deutsche Grammophon? When I first got into classical music, I remember seeing Stockhausen everywhere, but never saw a single Henze album. I live in a mid-sized city that's fairly progressive and labels like Supraphon, Hungaraton, Melodiya, Cetra etc etc etc were everywhere, so I'm surprised that in the day when a record sat in a store for years, I never came acrossed one album. Or was he just a Euro thing? :)

[@VoceCorale]

In the city where I live there's a record shop that's specialized in classical music (really a rarity, especially these days), it's very small and almost hidden, but well-stocked. They've had for years a DG Henze box on one of their shelves. It's been a while since the last time I payed a visit, but I'm pretty sure the box is still there.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

It depends from the store-keeper, I guess. In Vienna, where I live, there have been 5 record shops either specialized in classical music or with a great classical department, and there was one, "Katzenmusik", specialized in New Music, be it classical, be it Jazz. With some recordings Henze was very prominent, because of Fischer-Dieskau, who refused to sing in Vienna (he was booed at the State Opera), but his fans buyed all of his records. But the DG-Box with the symphonies, concertos a.s.o. I "imported" myself from Germany. It was impossible to get it in Vienna. The "Katzenmusik" always had records of Henze's more modernist left-wing works like "Versuch über Schweine" or "Der langwierige Weg in die Wohnung der Natascha Ungeheuer" (what a title!). Stockhausen was not really prominent, I remember his "Hymnen", and I know that I buyed "Trans". But, I must confess, that neither Henze nor Stockhausen was my world of new music. From the post-war-period, I liked especially Britten, Walton, Poulenc, Milhaud (well, not only post-war, I know), Messiaen, Bernstein, Barber and Ginastera (and I like them even today). But you didn't get the records in Austria! Not even the Decca with Britten. To import them was impossible. It was "British Decca". And then, I was about 16 or 17, I came to London, and afterwards, I had ALL of Britten's operas - and my fantastic mother had to pay extra-taxes for the flight luggage... How far away are these times...!

[@jimcarlile7238]

Saw lots of Henze in L.A.

[@pbarach1]

So I'm guessing you won't be doing a video on the BEST performances of music by Nono either...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You never know...

[@guillaumechabason3165]

I asked him an autograph on my concert program booklet once Guess what happened...

[@carolleenkelmann3829]

Who gave a damn 30 yrs.ago?! Catering to egos in the music Business is not easy with characters such a Mr. P. Your story was a bit drawn out but I'm glad I stuck with it for the letter part if not for anything else. Oooh, David. After that...your true self. Well, critics have to have at least three things : brutality, a way with words, and resilience when not persistence. Oh, yes, and of course, knowledge. Once in the Provinces, at front curtain bow line-up time, the Conductor was pushing me back along the line , like an aggressive shuffle off to Buffalo, explaining, the lighting where he was standing was bad and he had to get into the Light. Lesson learned.

[@chadweirick67]

That was a great story thank you for sharing! I had a not nearly as dramatic encounter when I was an undergraduate composition major at New England conservatory of music.. Sir Michael Tippett was a special guest artist.. he was brought in by the composition department for a series of concerts a series of tributes and a series of lectures.. I soon discovered however he would not talk with the undergraduate composition majors only The graduate.. I was in a lecture hall waiting to speak to him and was promptly ushered out because undergrads were not allowed..per his decree

[@markzacek237]

You are a delightful raconteur, sir!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you kindly.

[@gideonels]

Thanks for a great video.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad you liked it!

[@BryanHalo123]

Your last paragraph to Henze was unnecessary....and delicious!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course.

[@ftumschk]

I gave a letter to the postman / He put it in his sack / Bright and early next morning He brought my letter back / She wrote upon it / [All together now] Return to Henze...

[@philscott6085]

A lot of people seem to loathe Henze's music. I certainly find his Cuban communist period simultaneously arid and pretentious, but some of the first works he wrote in Italy are worth hearing. His opera Der Junge Lord, his ballet Undine, Symphonies 1, 3, 5 and 8, a couple of the soprano cantatas, his Double Concerto for Heinz and Ursula Holliger - I would not disregard them. As for his personality, I can well imagine that letter having the same effect on anyone, but it doesn't matter now. John Cage was reportedly a fascinating man whose music is meh, Lutoslawski was cold and rude but his music is great. Weird how that happens.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, I agree with you about the works mentioned. For a while, it seemed as if Henze's music offered a sort of "third way" between slavish conservatism and total serial rigor, but as you suggest, there's a lot of junk. Anyway, that was not the point of the story. As to whether or not it "matters," that's a rather generic observation, and it's incorrect. It matters to me, first of all, and it also does help to explain how, perhaps, his personality got the in way of the self-criticism necessary to a more consistently sustained achievement artistically. The fact is that being obnoxious may or may not "matter." In Wagner's case, for example, it didn't get ni the way of his creativity. I'm not sure I would say the same thing about Henze, because when you're both obnoxious and coddled by a state-sponsored arts-promotion and support complex, you have no incentive to offer your best and most thoughtful work. In short, you get lazy, and I believe he was just that.

[@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist]

“Cage’s music is meh “ I beg to differ. The Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano are a classic and I don’t seem to be alone in thinking so judging by the flow of recordings over the years. The string quartet is rather beautiful as well. Ideal composer for blindfold listening tests. Rarely identified correctly.

[@philscott6085]

All I meant was that once the music exists, the personality of the composer no longer matters because the music should stand or fall without surrounding hype, support networks or critical fashions. I'm sure we are in agreement on that David, although of course Henze's obnoxious behaviour matters to you and it's a great story. I think (but can't verify) there are some good things among his late works: the 10th Symphony is way more listenable than the 9th for example. As for Cage, there are some composers whose concepts and ideas about music are more interesting than their actual music. Cage is certainly one, and - while I listen to them often - the same could be said for Satie and Ives.

[@aaronnichols3162]

As a rather left-wing guy, I totally agree with you. If you're gonna write politically-motivated music, you kind of have to put up or shut up. It's not fair to enjoy the luxuries that are given to you by the systems you criticize in your art.

[@williamwhittle216]

Thanks for sharing. Loved it, not saying the same about Herr Henze’s music. Owned an Lp of some of his Symphonies, but it did not stay in my collection very long. And, I like a lot of contemporary music, including that of Penderecki. Also, I don’t look to artists for my political philosophy, kinda Libertarian/Conservative.

[@matthewv789]

Henze probably didn’t talk to his publisher and they were trying to communicate with him through you.

[@brithgob1620]

Henze sounds like the type who didn't like "fun." I'm sure you didn't miss anything without his exalted presence.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

What can we say... restrained diplomacy is not your forte! BTW there has been so much criticism this summer (2022) of the Bayreuth productions. Several received loud booing and one of the sopranos actually gave the finger back to the audience in response. The German cultural minister, Claudia Roth, officially critiqued the productions saying they did not reflect a diverse, colorful society and needed to attract "younger, broader" audiences. It was quite a surprise realizing the German government is this involved with cultural institutions. I guess they must provide a lot of funding? So unheard of here in the US.

[@barrymoore4470]

Booing performers trying their best, however they might be directed, is so rude. There really is no excuse for it.

[@hiphurrah1]

Amazing hilarious story. Tried to listen to him, as every magazine wrote how wonderful and important his music is, especially in the 90s, but i gave up, it was boring and devoid of anything original that would stick in the mind. And indeed, his music seems to have vanished ..

[@dianelewis4774]

Thanks, for sharing this event with us. I understaND your situation, and I think you handled like a man should.

[@teeker2012]

Great story!!

[@gardenphoto]

Unlike the plausibly debatable truth in Samuel Langhorne Clemens' tongue-in-cheek comment about Wagner's music being "better than it sounds," Henze's music is irrefutably more woeful and forgettable than it sounds - on just about every level (it has already been left by the wayside just 12 years after his death!) - but the MAN himself far exceeded the atrocious unsavoriness of his own "creations." If Sir Thomas Beecham would had been alive today, he would have surely "trod in" some Henze!

[@PhilipDaniel]

20:17 - 20:26 Could have taken the words right out of my own mouth.

[@johns9624]

OK, so I like some of Henze's music, so sue me! For me, the key point of all this is that you're best off divorcing the personality of the artist from your appreciation (or lack of) of his/her output. Otherwise you're left with a pretty thin field. Beethoven could be a jackass, Wagner a thoroughly dislikeable person, Britten's been mentioned on here, the list goes on and on. Obnoxious performing artists? They're legion. Champagne socialists in general are a ridiculous bunch, very much alive and kicking today and not just in the world of music. As for so-called artists with over-pumped egos, they're everywhere. I thought your letter was a model of diplomacy, David, and even the 'coda' was hardly abrasive enough to cause an eruption. If Henze was a hole in the rear, that's his problem. It's the toadies who surround and applaud such misfits who get up my nose they're the ones who do the inflating. You do a great job of puncturing, David, keep it up!

[@jimcarlile7238]

Where does it say that to be a socialist you have to be poor?

[@johns9624]

@@jimcarlile7238 The same place it says you have to be rich to be a capitalist. Nowhere. It's the pretentiousness and hypocrisy these people almost invariably exhibit that's annoying.

[@Wolfcrag85]

This is how one puts someone deservedly in his place. Bravo, Mr. Hurwitz!

[@ThreadBomb]

Oh dear. I now find myself looking askance at the couple of Henze CDs I own. Will they survive the next cull? As for privileged composers living in their own realities, it sounds similar to what I call Maestro Syndrome, in which conductors are so surrounded by ass-kissers that they become incapable of realising that their efforts are inane, misguided, and unnecessary.

[@BVcello]

Great story about a little man...

[@AlexMadorsky]

A well-crafted response to a very obnoxious letter from Herr Henze. What a pompous, preening nudnik. Champagne socialists can be rather annoying. I'm more of a boxed wine social democrat, but my salary is not subsidized by the government, nor do I pretend to be the tribune of the proletariat.

[@marknewkirk4322]

I like some of the music of the post-war avant-garde. Not all of it, but there is some stuff there that is worth hearing. None of it was composed by Bruno-Heinz Jaja. The far left-wing idiots like Nono were the least talented of the bunch. It's not surprising that less politically rigorous talents like Ligeti and Berio began to distance themselves from those guys. Henze, of course, was apart from that Darmstadt crowd. He was not good enough to be relevant, not modern enough to be of interest in elite circles, too scandalous to be popular among the concert-going public, and too self-absorbed to leave a legacy anybody cares about. It's interesting that none of the regimes that practiced the kinds of politics that guys like Henze and Nono believe in would have tolerated their music for an instant. Their role was to troll the musical public in the West and to poison our cultural life. Fortunately, their artistic impotence predestined them to failure.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Wow!

[@ftumschk]

I very much doubt that regimes on the other end of the political spectrum would have tolerated such music either. Who needs tape loops and total serialism when you can have oompah bands and total war?

[@marknewkirk4322]

@@ftumschk It all depends on what you regard as the other end of the spectrum. Western democracy is the opposite end of the spectrum from totalitarianism of any ilk. We are free to perform, listen to, ignore, praise or criticise whatever kind of music we choose. If your thing is oom-pah bands playing military music or Social Realism cantatas praising Stalin's collective farms, you can listen to your heart's content. And if torturing oneself with Henze's tripe or with Nono's incompetent flailings makes somebody feel fulfilled, more power to them, as long as I can opt out.

[@marknewkirk4322]

@@ftumschk And if by the other end of the spectrum, you mean National Socialism, their lists of artists they regarded as "Spritual Non-Aryans" and their bans of "degenerate art" are strikingly mirrored by the Zhdanov decrees of 1948 or the personal attacks on Shostakovich in 1936. Or the total ban on any musical performances in Czechoslovakia that were not state sanctioned and approved in advance as late as the 1970s and '80s.

[@ftumschk]

@@marknewkirk4322 "Western democracy is the opposite end of the spectrum from totalitarianism of any ilk" - I'd like to think so, but we've come perilously close to the opposite in recent years. It's just that I'd rather not single out the left for criticism, when the right has had its musical and political failures too.

[@gerhardohrband]

Excellent letter! Stick it to the Germans))

[@DavidJohnson-of3vh]

Well done on your part! Almost nothing is as satisfying as shafting a jerk.

[@barryguerrero7652]

Oh, come now, David. Henze's music ins't quite as atrocious as it sounds. Just almost.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Close enough!

[@geraldparker8125]

Thank the Lord that it really does not matter, eh? One's life is not one whit better or worse for never having encountered it. Give me Cilèa. Give me Giordano. Give me Ponchielli. Give me Catalani. And that is NOT to mention: Give me Verdi and Beethoven endlessly and with my eternal gratitude. Even Bruckner stinks less than arrogant dudes like Henze. (Well, at least Bruckner is of use to listeners with more Sitzfleisch than I can summon for him.)@@DavesClassicalGuide