Music Chat: What Gramophone's Media Kit Reveals About the Classical Music Marketplace

[@scagooch]

In the 90's i went to the book store specifically to buy it. It was an event.

[@ferrisburgh802]

Given that there are no music magazines in the U.S that cover classical music, I have always found it to be a very useful magazine and look forward to it's arrival every month. What they do offer are reviews of composers other than the usual Bach, Beethoven, Brahms stuff as well as book reviews and information on those musicians that have passed away. I don't agree with all of their reviews but that can also be said of reviews on this website and Classics Today. They also introduce you to new conductors (some of the accolades are seriously over hyped) but useful. They so offer in depth interviews with conductors and musicians and notices about music festivals. It's worth noting that many classical music listeners are extremely difficult to please especially if the material doesn't fall into their area of interest, ditto singers, conductors, et al. In short in most respects I think Gramophone accomplishes what it sets out to do, inform, to a large degree. As for digital mags or streaming music I have absolutely no interest in either of them. Physical media offers a level of enjoyment; reading liner notes, re-reading CD reviews or interviews that neither of the foregoing offer.

[@tatoarg9508]

Interesting talk! I'm a 34 yo professional orchestra musician, I listen to classical music everyday, I also see your videos everyday. I'd love to see other critics hop into youtube or podcasts. It's been years since I last read a magazine.

[@JackJohnsonNY]

I think Dave was ahead in having a web-based magazine and now ahead of most in this world in having a steady (high quality) video output. Not everyone who has smart things to say would or could pull this off. But it wouldn’t even occur to most.

[@murraylow4523]

Informative talk, Dave. I stopped looking at gramophone for a time, largely because of money and the increasing difficulty of running into it in a newsagents. I’m definitely below the average on a lot of those measures, including age and the cost of my equipment, although probably higher in terms of the number of discs around here. I have read it several times in the past year, and although there will be aspects everyone won’t like, including me, the reviewing is still at a pretty high standard. Reviewers can be pretty negative (if usually politely so) about releases, so it’s not all puffery. Don’t you think there might be a bit of self-selection bias in terms of who answered their survey? I mean it’s more likely that retired persons with more leisure would bother, really. I can’t abide these marketing surveys and I’m sure I’m not alone. But maybe to get a subscription you have to fill one in… On a brighter note, 3 hours a month reading it is *vastly* less of a time commitment than following you on KZbin ;) !

[@robkeeleycomposer]

It used to be worth buying and re-reading. I used to keep them in piles when I had more space. then it was something you bought for a long train journey but left on the train for someone else...Now, as it has become thinner (in every sense) and glossier, the actual reviews shorter, padded out with fatuous puff pieces and yes, - 'dumbed down' it's become largely irrelevant. I recall with a shudder when every other issue had a photo of John Tavener on the cover... hardly an incentive to buy.

[@johnwright7557]

I’ve subscribed to Gramophone and BBC Music for years. Gramophone was my primary source of record reviews until it was dumbed down in the early 2000s when I started to pay more attention to International Record Review that contained really in-depth reviews. When that folded at least a couple of their good critics went to Gramophone. About the same time the quality of Gramophone went back up. I still find it valuable and it usually arrives in my mailbox within a week of publication and this directly from the UK! BBC Music comes at a snail’s pace. I’ve just finished the April issue which I received in May and the June issue is already out in the UK and I have yet to receive the May issue. In any case, its reviews are much shorter and they have fewer of them. The main reason I subscribe is for the cover CDs, some of are really first-class recordings of unusual repertoire. I also read Fanfare on line and the American Record Guide through my public library’s website. I used to subscribe to that, but found too many glib reviews by the editor and outright mistakes by some of their regular reviewers, even mixing up works by the same composer. I think it is important to get a variety of opinion on classical recording and then decide what to get and what to avoid. I’ve been doing this now approaching 80 years and don’t plan to stop anytime soon. Appreciated your discussion of Gramophone’s readership!

[@markpullinger2500]

Thank you, John. It was a great pity when IRR folded after Barry Irving died but I was happy to make the move to Gramophone. I had stopped my subscription during James Inverne's editorship as the reviews had become so short, but was happy to discover things had improved enormously under Martin Cullingford. In terms of review length, we are given the space we need and - although I'm biased - I believe it is a quality product. I look forward to Mr Hurwitz running a similar survey on his site and publishing a media publishing pack...

[@johnwright7557]

@@markpullinger2500 Thanks, Mark. Yes, I was referring to you and Patrick Rucker in particular. Patrick also used to review for my “home” newspaper, the Washington Post and I really miss his concert reviews there-after the newspaper changed its arts management.

[@petterw5318]

I'm a digital Gramophone subscriber, it's not that expensive. Truth be told, I don't care much about the new magazines, but being able to access the entire archive is fantastic. The webside is hopelessly dated, though.

[@markstenroos6732]

The demo for classical music listeners - older, well-off males - hasn’t changed for at least 150 years. I’ve never seen a statistic that shows that the audience for classical music skewed to a younger demo at any time. Promoters of classical music would do well to give up on trying to market to a demo that doesn’t exist - ie: younger people - and concentrate their money and efforts on the very well-defined consumer segment that continues to grow as life expectancy increases.

[@charlespowell9117]

Agree, Mark. Hope you are well.

[@Ingrampix]

True ref. the demos, but I was bitten by Classical aged 12 and expect the same or earlier goes for many here. Happy to be part of the older audience now, but I don't think many of us started later in life, and (snapshot obvs.) there were more younger people at regular Classical concerts when I was 20, than I see now (UK). Am not at all happy to be part of a 95% male demographic though. That feels like an off-putting club I would not wish to join.

[@davesmusictank1]

I started my classical fix around thirty and now at 66 still listen alongside jazz and electronic music.

[@richtomasek9308]

My eldest brother receives both Gramophone and BBC Music. Both magazines cater to the "flavor of the week" musicians. They do not give truly negative reviews and seem to think every new release is now the one to beat. Such as the miserable Klaus Makela Sibelius release.

[@james.t.herman]

I had a Gramophone subscription years ago. I didn’t renew it because I don’t need to know about every new release. I read criticism primarily when I’m looking to buy a recording of a piece I don’t currently own.

[@kittydukakis]

Starting from the 90s, for at least twenty years I had every copy of Fanfare and American Record Guide. I finally gave up as I can't justify buying hundreds of pages to read may be 20 reviews.

[@karlnehring6114]

I subscribe to both Gramophone and BBC Music Magazine. It's not so much that I get that much out of the review, but I find it enjoyable to read the interviews with musicians. I also find the BBC's feature where the ask musicians what they are listening to quite fascinating; indeed, I have occasionally been led to some recordings that I have added to my own collection based on those insights. In the interest of disclosure, I review CDs for a blog, so have access to numerous new releases that way, plus I have a public library nearby that still gets in new classical CDs on a semi-regular basis (although I do wonder how long that will continue). I truly enjoy what Dave is doing here on KZbin; would also like to give a shoutout to Rick Beato (more rock-oriented but the man is a font of musical knowledge) and would encourage folks to check out Ted Gioia ("The Honest Broker"), Ethan Iverson ("Transitional Technology"), and John Puccio ("Classical Candor"). But David, my hat is off to you -- your site is amazing!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you!

[@eugenebraig413]

Also, FYI, I actually completed their survey a couple months ago (obviously not yet included in the 2020 results).

[@williamwhittle216]

Most interesting. I subscribed to The Gramophone for many years, but stopped several years ago. I do subscribe to the ARG and your site. However, the former does not have much that interests me anymore, constrary to your vidoes that are almost all interesting, as is your web site.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you!

[@flexusmaximus4701]

I used to subscribe to the hardcopy version for about 20 some years. I let it lapse due to the difficulty of subscribing here in the states. Don't miss it, in that it seemed to get thinner with less quality and increasingly expensive. I get most of my info and reviews now online.

[@pauldavidartistclub6723]

Thanks for an interesting video. Boy did I love Gramophone back in the 1990’s (as a late twenty-something to thirty-something). It replaced my prior devotion to the great Comics Journal (when I kicked the comics collecting habit), and ended up with stacks of them. I poured through and read practically cover to cover, even the audio equipment reviews and ads, and I wasn’t even a buyer, always having just average off-the-shelf stereos or portable cd players. But it felt like an important journal, and although I imagine it may have been an even better mag in earlier times, the 90’s were a glorious period for classical (and jazz) CD releases, and Gramophone was my first go-to for reviews and essays

[@jbaldwin1970]

I know you said you didn’t care, but others might 🙃 BBC music magazine isn’t subsidised by license or tax payers and isn’t published by the BBC at all - but it contributes (slightly) to the BBC’s coffers. It certainly benefits from the brand association but the BBC isn’t allowed to promote it on its channels. I used to subscribe for years from 1992 when it was a cheap way of building a library of music recordings, and some of their cover CDs are excellent - the early Wagner Night at the Proms disc, and the Berlioz marche funebre also from the Proms are favourites I wouldn’t be without.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think that's a far to limited view of what "subsidy" means. How about branding, access to material for the cover CDs, etc? I knew the editorial team rather well back in the 2000s, and believe me, they are indeed subsidized in many ways, even if it's not a direct financial contribution.

[@sbor2020]

Classical music magazines are always going to be a niche market. When I was a teenager In the early 1980's I used to read Gramophone, and together with BBC Radio 3 and live concerts, these gave me a real grounding in classical music. For many like me, in the age before the internet age of streaming and youtube, these were the onl ways of accessing this vast field. Now with your channel and StickyNotes among many others there is an abundance of riches.

[@ftumschk]

I was also a teenager in the 80s, and my school had a strong tradition/reputation for music. I consequently had several friends who were "into" classical music, but I was the only one who was also "into" Gramophone magazine. I guess the others weren't as much into musical criticism and/or record collecting as I was.

[@JackJohnsonNY]

I subscribe to Gramophone. I subscribe to most everything in the classical music review space. If you want these dwindling enterprises to continue (even if just to complain about them!), then you need to support them.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Kudos to you!

[@dridgus]

Very interesting. The equivalent media kit for BBC Music Magazine for 2021 claims a circulation of 25,734 and a market share of 58%. I notice that in 2009 it claimed a circulation of 45,000. Clearly a shrinking market - at least for magazines

[@carmel1629]

A big fish in a small pond. Loved that one haha. My dad rest in peace was a Gramophone subscriber for 40+ years so I am pretty familiar with the magazine. It does provide alot of interesting info but I agree that there is alot of attitude that goes with it. I guess it's best to fish in the small pond and eventually you get some juicy bits. I myself became an avid classical music lover because of my Dad but not through reading Gramophone mind you but simply by LISTENING to it at home. Let's say it grew on me so I am grateful for that. Great talk Dave

[@StompyJones]

Hello Dave. I am watching your videos every evening. But I see a copy of Gramophone on the shelf and something in me goes flat. I think the difference has to do with honesty and enthusiasm. I don't think Gramophone is representative of the audience for classical music - it's a bubble of it's own.

[@richardsandmeyer4431]

In my college days (late 1960s), I began subscribing to High Fidelity and Stereo Review for the equipment reviews but soon found their music reviews to be useful as well. As those magazines went defunct or ceased to cover classical music, I subscribed to Gramophone, BBC Music Magazine, Fanfare, American Record Guide, and a few others that didn't last as long. I've found that the quality of the reviews in most of them has been "dumbed down" over the years (or maybe it's just that even when a review gives an in-depth musical analysis or history, I've already read the same info so many times in previous reviews and liner notes that it makes little additional impression). I continue to subscribe to at least one or two of the magazines at any given time just to keep up with new releases and the occasional interesting article, but the arrival of a new issue in the mail has ceased to be an important event.

[@Ingrampix]

At an annual Chamber Fest. in the UK (which plays to capacity) we offer free tickets to anyone under 35 but they don't come, effectively no-one. I'd say average is between 65 and 70. In most business contexts, that's an emergency waiting to happen.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No it isn't. Those under 35s will be 65-70 soon enough and then they will come. You'll still sell out. I mean, if you're already playing to capacity what's the problem?

[@Ingrampix]

Thanks for the reply - just be nice if more young people knew the rep. existed (speaking of UK), more about spreading the word than selling tkts. Your channel would have been very handy when I was young. Whether or not the niche can really grow, is an interesting discussion point.

[@samuelheddle]

How does magazine advertising work for big media groups anyway? I kinda figured that some companies would just go to the media company that owns Gramophone and say something like "hey, advertise our golf clubs to your '65 year old rich guy' magazines", though I guess quite a few specialty products would pick a specific one, maybe.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, that's often true.

[@davidmblumenstein]

With respect to audio equipment this raises a question: What components comprise your principal audio system? WHat do you use to listen to your vast collection of 2455+ CDs?

[@kirkpatticalma7911]

Dave won't tell you. He doesn't discuss audio equipment.

[@Don-md6wn]

I never subscribed to Gramophone and the last time I saw one was the last time I was in the classical music section of a record store, which would have been about 20 years ago. I'm surprised they are able to get the advertising rates you quoted with their subscription numbers, and that they've survived this long when one can easily find information on just about any recording online and usually sample it via KZbin or a streaming service.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Those are the rates they quote. Believe me, it's not what they get. They make deals.

[@JackJohnsonNY]

The discussion of audio equipment gave me another thought: it would be great to have a segment on HOW you listen to classical music. I’m not talking about equipment particulars (although that would be fine/nice), but more your setting and process. When you want to actively listen, are you using headphones or loudspeakers? Do you read along with any line notes while listening? Do you do things to reduce distractions? Etc etc. maybe tips on effective listening… as we all “keep on listening”

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

My "how to listen" is simple: any way that works for you is fine. I really have nothing else to say about it because now two people will approach it the same way!

[@JackJohnsonNY]

@@DavesClassicalGuide fair!

[@garethwilliams976]

Great fun! It is really difficult though to assess the size of the readership of a magazine. I pass on mine to friends, some are held in the reading rooms of libraries and some by colleges. I suspect that most copies of this magazine are read by at least two people but who knows. As the saying goes - you can prove anything with statistics, even the truth.

[@tedtalksstamps]

The saying I've heard goes: There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. 😆

[@ModusVivendiMedia]

I've always read magazines incessantly right there in the bookstore without ever buying them!

[@bbailey7818]

I subscribed to the much missed High Fidelity from the late 60s until its demise and then to Opus. I wonder how many of those in the average age bracket for Gramophone above or below were holdovers from the hifi explosion of the 50s and 60s, the builders of Heathkits and speaker enclosures, who fell in love with the classics in the process? Mostly male, of course. P.S. I just found out and didn't know Heathkit is still very much in business.

[@robmckenzie2538]

Started reading/subscribing to The Gramophone as a complete music novice in the 1960s. Finally gave up on it in 2000, by which time it seemed to me to be more interested in helping the industry sell the product rather than directing me to excellence (puffery, 'the latest is always the best', etc.). During that earlier period, I also subscribed for a time to Records and Recording (posted copies late, seldom on time) and Hi-Fi News' (UK). Gave up on the latter when it repeatedly messed up my subscription renewals. Of the surviving print titles, I find ARG and Fanfare to be notably superior to the latter-day Gramophone. Regrettably, the repertoire ARG has reviewed in later years has contained too little of interest to me. Fanfare's choice seems much more comprehensive and to my taste.

[@AlexMadorsky]

Oh how I’d love to get my hands on a Sarrusophone and .6 of an Ondes Martenot! The stats are none too surprising. I’m a subscriber, although perhaps not forever. Good news is I’m much younger than average, not as good news is I’m likely not as affluent as the median reader.

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

I used to be a subscriber. I did respect the old critics like Edward Greenfield, Robert Layton because they had some credentials in what they were doing. Unfortunately, the quality of critic has dramatically declined. I remembered reading a review of a Fibich Symphony No.3 recording and thinking this guy is talking twaddle. Then I did some research on the profile of the critic. Apparently he was some guy in his twenties who was a professional photographer who wrote reviews in his spare time. I can only assume Fibich is so unimportant that he got the job because the main guy was so busy reviewing another Beethoven cycle or a Ormandy Box.

[@vincentspinelli9995]

I have not read the magazine in decades. The British bias just became too much and the reviewers declined in quality. A former colleague who is a musician and now lives in England, told me that no one takes the magazine seriously and the recording companies just use it to publicize the latest artist they are pushing. They buy up lots of copies to promote the talent. I was in communications for most of my career and bought advertising space here and abroad. You are right about the rates. They would be cutting deals like mad, most especially now in this climate. Event tie-ins and sponsored content also help.

[@jesus-of-cheeses]

Given that BBC Music is on Apple News+, Gramophone’s reach is probably insignificant by comparison.

[@grantparsons6205]

I think I learnt to read through the gramophone! Even if you didn't agree with all the critics, those old school Gramophone reviewers could really write!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very true. I always used to admire how literate British critics were. Now even that is largely gone.

[@grantparsons6205]

@@DavesClassicalGuide They wrote remarkably well. But with one caveat. There is a kind of English education, evident also in our politics dare I say, in which rhetorical flourish & narrative brilliance outweighs those lesser 'pedestrian' virtues, like accuracy, truth, keen observation...a point I think you've made in many of your wonderful reviews!

[@MDK2_Radio]

I think my dad still has a Gramophone subscription and he was 85 in 2020. He’s helping weight the average toward the centenary mark. (Hope I’m using “centenary” correctly!) (Edit, looks like this is not the proper use of the word. Maybe “century” works better.)

[@ewmbr1164]

My audio equipment: my ears.

[@davesmusictank1]

I may be late to this argument but for a very brief period I did read Gramophone and the BBC one. I found them both too blousy. I ended up reading Wire which I have done since 1992. It is not a classical music mag but does sometimes cover the genre but generally more modern composers. It has done very good Primers to newbies, such as the ones on Mozart, Haydn, Messiaen and Morton Feldman as well as John Cage. So it is your channel that I also use now for my classical fix. But being a Wire reader I am also into jazz and electronic music.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's very interesting.

[@saintbris]

Can I buy that PenCentral stock?😂 Fantastic!

[@jaykauffman4775]

I far prefer Fanfare. More comprehensive and much better reviewers eg Henry Fogel

[@leslieackerman4189]

From reading many comments here, I would say that demographics (gender, age) for this website are similar to Gramophone. Perhaps even 99% male (which is sad, but reality)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, it seems so.

[@tedtalksstamps]

Each of 30,000 supposed readers plans to spend, on average, $400 over the next year, on audio equipment. They sure do have expensive tastes in bluetooth earbuds.

[@albertbauli]

Does everyone know how many CDs they have in their collection? I have never counted them because I would feel bad about the money I spent xD but if I would, it would take me a couple of hours, I guess. Still, now I couldn’t guess the number.

[@bumblesby]

I do... I have everything cataloged. I've been doing it for years. I have CDs, LPs, Cassettes, FLAC files, MP3 files, and I enter albums from Spotify that I like. I used to use software called CatTRax which had features good for entering classical music, but it is no longer sold/updated. So, I created my own software based on some of the features from CatTRax and converted over to it :) It's about the only thing in my life I have organized LOL

[@albertbauli]

@@bumblesby Wow, good job! Mines are extremely well organized, like in a good music shop, but have never counted them or catalogued them. Will have to do it some day!

[@geertdecoster5301]

The numbers are indeed crushing. 95% male, average age 62, etc. Shouldn't we just close the doors now and set up those good old gentlemen's clubs again? Nope, lets no go there. How about a Classical Music café franchise instead? Nice music in a brasserie. It will be called the local public library with streaming et al. Brave new world ahead!

[@tedtalksstamps]

With all the talk I've heard over the years, about the barriers to entry faced by women in the classical music world, why would female readership be so low for something which presents absolutely no barriers?

[@tedtalksstamps]

@@EnriqueHernandez-zk7qc I couldn’t begin to venture an opinion. If the assumption is true, that the readership demographics mirrors the overall listening/interest demos, then I am too shocked for words.

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

Well for me (being based in the UK) my regular Gramophone reading days are long over (and even when I did I never subscribed, relying on local libraries to buy a copy). Reason being I learnt early on (and this is includes the Penguin Guide) too frequently their recommendations were so wide of the mark, against what I heard I lost confidence in them (that Infamous Colin Davis RCA Sibelius cycle was I believe lauded in their pages, as was much of Hatink's paint stripplingly boring/awful Vaughan Williams symphony cycle). I found it good for a laugh sometimes but really now Gramophone is as anachronistic as it's name suggests!

[@eugenebraig413]

I'm overjoyed to be below-average age among this readership (but not for long).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's the thing. All we have to do is wait a few years...

[@jankucera8180]

I used to be a digital subscriber, but their digital format was extremely reader-unfriendly... and after some time I also got an impression their reviews were biased... SO I quit.

[@Vandalarius]

95% Male?! And I thought Astronomy magazines were the old boys club.

[@ewilson712]

Gramophone is a bit too English-biased for me-although it makes sense they would be. Any time they release a new list of their top recordings for a composer or a work, half of the list are with an English orchestra and the other half are conducted by Simon Rattle. So it seems.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So it is.

[@neilhunt5644]

Yes but Classics Today is not exactly without its own leanings and preferences.

[@ewilson712]

@@neilhunt5644 agreed, and I don’t think there will ever be a truly and completely unbiased source of any information (it’s human nature!), but for me it’s a matter of ‘how much.’

[@markfarrington5183]

Gramophone's attitude was far outstripped by a certain upper-end classical magazine I used to buy in stores (leetil heent: think of a trumpet blasting)...That is, until they they tried shaming their customers into buying it on line - with a published hissy fit as to how much money they lost on publishing hardcopies...For which I had about as much "pity" as I did for that room full of whining donor billionaires, in that leaked "47 percent" 2012 Mitt Romney campaign video : "Mitt, why don't you admit you're proud to be rich?...We work really hard; sometimes we can't go to our kids' softball games!" (Why, those poor dears, AHEM.) In those days, downloads were a lot less reliable than now - and in any case I got ticked off, so I stopped reading them PERIOD.

[@tedtalksstamps]

They are estimating 2 readers per copy, the subscribers of which are 95% males in their 60s. Who are they sharing their copies with, their cats? Don't tell me it's their wives because, surely, a much larger percentage, then, would have been women who had initiated the subscriptions.

[@albertbauli]

I really don’t trust the big names… I always give them a look out of curiosity but take their recommendations with a pinch of salt. They never have the courage to say that something from the big companies is bad. Their reviews tend to be always pretty safe and they tend to push their own national musicians too much, specially the British.

[@daveinitely3204]

Sounds more like a small fish across a big pond ...

[@matthiasm4299]

So Gramophone has as many subscribers as you have on KZbin 😉

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So it seems, except they seem to be going down and I hope to be (still) going up!

[@doctorzingo]

I used to read it regularly back in the 80s and early 90s. In those days, a Wagner opera was a serious investment if you were a student. On the whole, there just seems less reason for traditional record reviewing in these days of reasonably prized CD quality streaming. I have a few thousand CDs on the shelf but they're almost all 10+ years old by now.

[@robertbangkok]

It took me awhile, but eventually I learned not to trust Gramophone. Their reviews are Brit-centered and not legitimate. I would never subscribe to them. And for the record, according to my collection app, I have 2,847 recordings. Also, for the record, YOU ARE BANKRUPTING ME. Every time I watch one of your videos, I immediately order one or more CDs. Stop it, Dave, just stop being such a good salesman. /s

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sorry!

[@loathecliff9364]

How many cats read the Gramophone? -- It's the only quality control check we need.

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

8 out of 10 cats prefer Whiskas. Fact🤣