David Graeber | A Drink with the Idler

The late anthropologist David Graeber chats to Idler editor Tom Hodgkinson and philosopher Mark Vernon about anarchism, bullshit jobs and the impact of the Coronavirus pandemic on the world of work.
David Graeber was an American anthropologist and anarchist activist. Born and raised in New York, Graeber received his PhD from Chicago University and held academic posts at NYU, Yale, Goldsmiths University and the London School of Economics.
He is the author of a number of books, including Debt: the First 5000 Years, Utopia of Rules and, most recently, Bullshit Jobs: A Theory. He has been actively engaged in social movements since 2000, when he threw himself into the Alter-Globalization movement. David was involved in the initial meetings that helped set up Occupy Wall Street and had been working with the Kurdish Freedom Movement in various capacities as well.
This conversation was recorded as part of the Idler's series of weekly Zoom events on 16 July 2020.

[@ageofhorus]

Such a sad loss, so young, he will be sorely missed

[@kyivstuff]

David Graeber as always brilliant (starts at 15:02). Liked the analysis of time and clocks by Mark.

[@mcurcher]

So sad he is gone.

[@thepeopleshistoryofus]

I'll miss this great man and his insight. ☹☹😢

[@marcuspeck963]

Terribly sad loss, but a wonderfully lived life! If I manage to do a hundredth of the good he did at the time of his death, I'll die fulfilled.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

this was a tragic loss! we really needed this guy! darn..

[@colibri1]

It's also enlightening to dip into Bertrand Russell's essay, "In Praise of Idleness."

[@asderc1]

Thanks for this recommendation!!

[@stevendurrant1724]

RIP

[@JustExtreme]

Rest in power

[@ViolentFEAR]

Memory eternal!

[@ernststravoblofeld]

This is so satisfying. Tom and David have both been very inspiring to me.

[@AntonShields]

This is an amazing discussion. The analysis are spot on. What I tend to say surrounding the subject matters is: There is an illusion the system is simply broken and can be repaired by democratic means only. A simple vote will alter the mechanisms that have been built at least over 50 years. Jane mayor in her book, “Dark money” explains this well. The system or this methodical effort to regain control and influence after the new deal it’s not broken yet working as intended. In America, both political parties have abandoned their civic duties to their constituents and traded in their service for avaricious desires. An insatiable desire and pathological connection through materialistic and monetary means that gives validity to there being by how much money they can acquire. Avarice has always been a mental condition for quite some time, however through this new hyperinflated system, these outcomes are generating more of this pathology. In David Graeber in his book, “Debt: The First 5000 years”, he concurrently showed a behavioral pattern of human beings using debt Peonage as a means of controlling and enacting Dehumanization over others. This leads to many forms of that practice such as slavery, which was used as a form of currency, many forms of torture and just an excuse to create fear and anxiety and to quell any dissent that fosters. The most pernicious form of quelling dissent in my opinion is the ethos of meritocracy. Like in America, the system created was never meant for all. The forefathers of the nation explicitly stated that the system would be for a few and the others would do mediocre task. Furthermore the omitting of historical facts like having well over 200 slave rebellion’s were abolitionist and slaves joined together to increase their numbers to defeat the Europeans who were seizing all the land and charging people asinine prices which is just a return to the Debt Peonage. This is where the invention of whiteness became a reality. From a play in the 1600s the Europeans used a tactic of combining groups with similar skin characteristics and merged them into a group and called it white race. This was a psychological tactic of division. And it worked amazingly. The Rich elite Europeans bestowed some land and privilege powers of control to the poor Europeans and other groups that newly made the white race to give them the impression they were joining a team that cared for them. In reality, The poor white people actually had more solidarity with the slaves however when you were starving and someone fees you some crumbs you’re going to take it. That is how powerful divisional tactics can be and it should never ever be underestimated. As the division continues, the goal is to keep your influence and dominion giving crumbs when necessary. These crumbs also include a powerful narrative if you work really really hard and sacrifice untold hours of your labor and give up all that you produce you will be successful and possibly rich beyond your wildest dreams. And all you need to do is give a few examples to the mass and have a narrative or a faith or belief that someday it will come to you. I’m describing the second psychological tactic of the bubble or now commonly called the echo chamber. This continues the division by giving a narrative that does not require any introspection from any group. Instead, The problems of the system and or certain groups of people are their problem. There critique only extends to the individual because that is all they have been taught. No one has explained the systemic properties that keep certain groups perpetually well-off while others continually get crumbs. The people have forgotten in this system the government should be fearing them. After the depression and the people were decimated and the government had to extract money from the corporate sector in order to stimulate the economy the people never really recovered after that. They became too complicit and comfortable in government aid and didn’t rebuild their strength in unions and in united groups in large numbers which is what persuaded the government to aid them. That strategy, that spirit, that knowledge is now gone from the consciousness of the people today. The divisional and echo chamber tactics are so immensely powerful people do not know how to unite in large numbers. The numbers are fragmented into small groups resistance that have no leverage and no power and therefore cannot change anything. This current regime has the government under its wing and has built a coalition of the corporate sector with government. Voting is meaningless If there is a lack of true empathy for the citizens that embody and continually hold the system in place with their faith that the system can be repaired. So what happens when that faith is gone? How long can the illusion last? In my opinion we can either unite and do some very harsh negotiation or it’s going to get bloody. Either way violence is inevitable and I guess what I’m trying to do at this point is mitigate that violence as best as I can.

[@Bisquick]

I agree with everything. That is all. Ok maybe to add something, yeah that reification of pathology as _morally_ justified is particularly interesting, though I guess it's not a coincidence that the field of economics originates within moral philosophy, but like how the language of "rationality" is captured by the social hierarchy over time to not only legitimize itself (obviously) but implicitly define the boundaries of imagination/thought. Basically described by that marx conception of dialectical materialism where the material and the ideal act as a sort of feedback-loop engine of social evolution, but the fascinating (albeit simultaneously insanely uh...concerning let's go with) systemic feature of this _seems_ to be how unconscious it is by means of these structures overdetermining their outcomes simply inevitably by way of how they are organized/owned. Kind of like that architectural idea of "functionalism" or "form follows function" but extended into the ideological realm, seemingly oblivious to any awareness that maybe 'existence precedes essence'. That imaginative space where we can collectively sketch out a future, slowly over time succumbs to an inevitable 'primitive accumulation' enclosure movement of the mind itself, and consequently that threshold of momentum required to change things becomes insanely difficult to maintain, all of which I think you pointed out. Even like Descartes' "cogito ergo sum" notably forgets to consider what allows one to "cogito" in the first place or at all which I would say is almost definitely emergent from social interaction and the evolution of that interaction _with others_ over time and I think this system's logical conclusion seems to be, as you're saying, customized individual "realities" (or like sects of 'hyperreality' in a Baudrillard sense) but I think what is potentially overlooked in embracing this is that it is at its core antithetical to that social interaction/trust with others. Basically I think we risk perhaps not being able to 'cogito' at all at some point, at least in how we generally conceive of in distinguishing thoughts from instincts/drives, and therefore we are _not_ . Or something.

[@dhsumana407]

Thanks for the contribution Anton . I’ll reflect upon it . At this point I’m uncertain of your analysis . You speak of harsh negotiation or else .... I would say conversations wherever possible with whoever’s up for it . Keep chipping away for what you really love and value . In for the long haul . Sumana

[@AntonShields]

@@dhsumana407 I said it like that because it seems that when we try to have the best intentions to communicate but severity of the problem doesn’t get conveyed well. And I wrote this several months ago and the situation has worsened so nobody is really uniting in my opinion like we should. Can I ask you a question? History dictates to us that resistance in the form of action always have to to be done eventually even after talking right? The people never can simply talk out their problems unfortunately it’s always resorted to more drastic measures. I want to mitigate the violence but I don’t wanna pretend that violence sometimes it’s not necessary because people already are dying and I think sometimes that’s because of our inability to cope with the fact that mass civil disobedience is the only course of action before violence. But I want to thank you for responding I don’t wish to have violence let me stressed that. I’ve just lost so many friends and it seems like no one cares and it seems like nobody wants to do what’s necessary which is going to take sacrifice but that sacrifice will also help the next generation and I thought that was the goal.

[@lonrorow7571]

I am so sorry to Hear about David Graeber, RIP.

[@francesbrisco776]

GRABBER WAS AN INSPIRATION....

[@joedwyer2313]

How can debt-slavery be moral when money is created for free?

[@stevendurrant1724]

Fantastic. Thanks

[@mechabits197]

I wonder if platforms will start removing video's of people like David....citing the right to be forgotten

[@johnkayoss5422]

Thank you. The description of the pause before sunrise as "eternity time" partially explains the situation where I live. Having 14k mountains to the East makes that pause last hours...

[@Bisquick]

Jesus that sounds awesome. Yeah I think this is where the vague conception of "heaven" is generated from, that snapshot flow-state of being one with spacetime rather than in opposition to it. Or something.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

clearly was way too smart and well spoken to be kept alive. wow im so sad. was one of our best guys. why won't the boomers retire and let us clean up their mess?

[@JuliusGalacki]

Graeber was a Boomer. Maybe your first step to clean up the mess is to stop with the generalizations and labelling.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

@@JuliusGalacki naaaah

[@sadlfjasdfacv]

This may have been his last interview?

[@lalop10]

This guy really connected libertarians, anarchists and socialists. No wonder why the CIA poisoned him...

[@stephenwallace8782]

I feel like his comments about "de-legitimating" the political class is such deeply common sense but we hesitate to act on it...

[@davidwilkie9551]

This video shows how David Graber arrived at the "thesis" that Anarchy is democracy "without an appointed government", because the constituent population is in tune with self government, which is parallel with the reference to the Christianity of Jesus's teaching yourself, by listening to the self-defining still small voice of reason, and obedience to ensuing sense-in-common Conscience.., government by the external authority of Decree, is superseded.

[@Cooliofamily]

Who is the woman with the banjo?

[@adefenceofgrace]

40:34 "How can I get a bullshit job?" 😆

[@Orf]

44:10 that’s funny

[@70galaxie]

a suspicious death

[@Orf]

35:20 wow. The real reason for 9-5

[@ridicule1313]

Ur everywhere lol I love u Orf

[@davidwilkie9551]

Prosaic Time, what you think you see is what you get through sense-in-common, is reduced to the e-Pi-i Superposition-point Entanglement of linear-transverse relative-timing, of the resonance picture vanishing-into-no-thing Perspective. The picture is constantly changing time-timing as recorded by reciprocation-recirculation quantization clocking. The poetic naturalness of physical manifestation endures longer in perception, because it's designed to, and the projection-drawing now-moment, here-now-forever re-evolution circularity is life. "Anarchy is Democracy without government", or under educated Individuality without sense-in-common on the real-time path to conscious awareness of inclusion-exclusion Timing-phase Totality.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

how'd he die?

[@Alex_Plante]

Internal bleeding. Last I heard his wife was waiting for detailed autopsy results.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

they fasho killed him.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

sea water aerosols. kelp forest the ocean. thorcon nuclear power. zen robotics for recycling and geo plasma for waste disposal. carbon engineerings DAC platform and Solodia green concrete technologies.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

50 min mark. oh my lord ha def they killed him. god bless you David. God bless you.

[@n1mbusmusic606]

holochain. holochain. holochain.

[@needlessoptions]

:(