Dawkins re-examined: Dawkins' legacy

Dawkins re-examined
Dawkins' legacy
1st December 2022
Video courtesy of ‪@TheInstituteOfArtAndIdeas‬
Dawkins' Selfish Gene has been hugely influential, both within evolutionary biology and in the wider public sphere. It's a beautifully simple story: genes and not organisms drive evolutionary change. But critics argue the story is simplistic. The effect of a gene is not always the same and as is dependent on its host and the cell environment. DNA does not come neatly divided into individual genes. And in 2010 the renowned biologist EO Wilson and others revived the case for group selection. Some are now arguing that the Selfish Gene paradigm is holding back medical research.
Is it time to move on and acknowledge that Dawkins' theory is not the whole story? Might his theory be making a fundamental mistake in reducing humans to machines? Or does the Selfish Gene remain a remarkably powerful and accurate account of who we are?
The Panel
World-famous scientist Richard Dawkins goes head-to-head with celebrated biologist Denis Noble as they lock horns over the role of genes over the eons.
Güneş Taylor hosts.
This video was recorded at the Institute of Art and Ideas' annual philosophy and music festival HowTheLightGetsIn. For more information and tickets, visit howthelightgetsin.org
IAI TV videos are for personal use only. For commercial or educational licensing please contact the IAI.
Video source: iai.tv/video/the-gene-machine

[@mahmoudmassoud5903]

This is how intelligent, knowledgeable and men of integrity debate.

[@martam4142]

Don't assume their gender.

[@jcrosby4804]

@@martam4142 men has nothing to do with gender. Gender wasn’t mentioned in the post to which you replied. Gosh why are there so many stupid people polluting perfectly anodyne KZbin comments.

[@purushartha363]

A dignified debate about the relationship between the gene and the organism. No shouting just mutual respect.

[@JudasMaccabeus1]

He’s 86 and perfectly recalled lines out of a book published in 1946. That’s amazing I’m itself. I desperately hope I’m as lively and articulate at age 86 as Dennis.

[@dylansenterfeit7644]

So refreshing to see an actual friendly debate for once. Very very fascinating great input from both parties.

[@Chris-xd9uv]

This is what I like about the science. There is open debate and the opportunity to discuss ideas. If you are wrong, you are wrong and we move on with a better understanding of the world. Unlike many religious people, who recoil in horror at any hint of non-compliance with their dogmatic, often objectively wrong claims. Time will tell who is right, when more evidence is gathered and analysed.

[@JudeKnowsWhatYouDoNot]

so evolution might be wrong?

[@Chris-xd9uv]

Yes. It seems unlikely given the amount of evidence we have but one should never be so arrogant as to think we can never be wrong. @@JudeKnowsWhatYouDoNot

[@Radec913]

🙄

[@Arunava_Gupta]

We move on yes, but not before fans and blind devotees of "rock-star" scientists have ridiculed, humiliated, shamed, poured scorn on and insulted and discouraged sane people from opposing viewpoints / ideologies advocating perfectly logical commonsensical alternative theories. And yes, after having also destroyed the careers of some of them. It's like beating the [...] out of a guy and then saying, " o sorry, you are not the guy we were after. Let's move on. That's the greatness about us guys. We admit it when we are wrong. We are so unlike religious people!!"

[@coolcat23]

KZbin at its best. So educational, so inspirational, so exemplary. A beautiful discussion between two beautiful minds.

[@martam4142]

Dawkins is a mediocre.

[@awyibeg5470]

I can't believe a man in his mid 90s is still that sharp !

[@leoteng1640]

He is amazing

[@brookberihun326]

He is 87 yrs old.

[@JoshWiniberg]

I don't see anyone schooling anyone here. Just two friends who respect and admire eachother having a discussion. And how brilliant it is that we can witness great minds talking about big ideas. Thanks for sharing.

[@Ian.Does.Fitness]

It’s fantastic to see such an enlightening conversation between two intellectual giants. Fascinating! Amongst other things it shows that two people can have opposing views and still be friends.

[@JoshWiniberg]

@@Ian.Does.Fitness And in today's culture I think that's the greatest lesson people can take from such discussions.

[@Ian.Does.Fitness]

@@JoshWiniberg Indeed! It was so good to see two people so brilliantly articulating their ‘arguments’ in such a skilful, edifying way whilst being so respectful of each other and their obvious body of knowledge on the subjects covered.

[@ishmammohammadadnan1525]

Denis was Dawkins’ PhD examiner

[@SmilingAnglerfish-oj9id]

Dawkins got SCHOOLED

[@entropyinreverse9044]

You have two scientists, one quoting actual studies and literature with amazing specificity, discussing not only the results but the context and the other responding with opinions and conjecture . Truly, people who are famous in certain fields aren’t necessarily the best, or even a representation of the best available knowledge on such field.

[@Cristaynful]

It’s just sooo wonderful to listen the arguments between 2 geniuses in science. I only hope that there will be the same talk between 2 different religion as calm and human as this.

[@zardi9083]

Wonderful and thought-provoking conversation! I'm just glad they're still around to have these amazing debates 😁

[@mpfmax0]

thanks you for uploading the whole thing, this definitly needs to be out there without a paywall

[@skepticalobserver7484]

Dawkins has said publicly that he dislikes having moderators. I think this lady would probably be an exception. Well done.

[@letsfaceit9187]

And did you see how fucking gorgeous she is 😅

[@richard9480]

Brilliant conversation. Thank you.

[@SerxelJaff]

I loved how youthful and useful Sir Denis looked. In stark contrast, Sir Richard was visibly and audibly disturbed to what Sir Denis was saying. This to me, was quite surprising, given how Sir Richard always boasts about how science loves asking questions and challenging truths. His truth was challenged and he didn’t act quite like a scientist.

[@karlbarlow8040]

That's the way I saw it too. Dawkins is a hero of mine but Noble seems to be his hero!

[@bluesque9687]

These are two very smart and wise men who have studied their subjects for decades! Wow!! fascinating and educational!! Hope this inspires the students!! Respect!!

[@dadush4]

What about dawkins was intelligent? Dude literally got schooled constantly and was embarassingly ignorant.

[@bluesque9687]

@@dadush4 No! if you are a serious student in these fields, and not just a passersby who wouldn't care any more than for a lazy philosophical abstraction from an argument, then you wouldn't say that!

[@dadush4]

@@bluesque9687 really? Being presented with a paper that promotes neolamarkian ideas after confidently and arrogantly insisting it doesnt exist and post-proof still insist on random words as if you know what the hell is going on?? Please. You re just a sheep. Baa.

[@mustaphadaddah9406]

Dennis speaks the language of real science and Richard tries to defend something that has many errors.

[@chrisdeep8417]

Well put. It's a bit like watching a debate between Einstein's relativistic mechanics vs. Newtonian mechanics. He is not completely wrong, just that there is now a more general theory which encompasses the old and does away with some of the flawed older hypotheses thanks to excellent molecular biologists like Denis Nobel and his collaborators.

[@leniterfortis4832]

"...which is a wonderful book except that it's wrong." Dawkins has such a great way of making people like him through his confidence.

[@driggerfireon5760]

Thx for uploading this 👍🏾

[@tria380]

"...and that is how it's done. Fabulous!" Exactly. Thank you!

[@damianclifford9693]

Finishing remarks from Noble : " we need to be open " so right , otherwise we will miss new evidence as we hold tight to dogma..which felt like Dawkins disposition. It must be hard to give a theory up, even for revision, when you are so tied to it emotionally for so long and to so much acclaim.

[@jcrosby4804]

But Noble isn’t open. He’s clearly made up his mind before we know. Dawkins is assimilating everything and concluding quite rightly that none of the recent mechanisms discovered disputes the fundamental truth of neo Darwinism. Lamarck is still long buried and until evidence to the contrary will remain so.

[@Mkoivuka]

People seem to have their favorite and aren't fully listening. Too bad.

[@robinghosh5627]

It is quite impossible to readily jump to conclusions that the microbiological or the embriological approach to determining the types of genome and the organism are the carrying agents in the Evolutionary process...Kudos to Mr Dawkins for giving us the insight in the gaps in the approach of Mr Dennis's conclusions in Evolutionary process...Fantastic discourse...Unforgettable

[@ili626]

The most passive aggressive argument in history

[@Mkoivuka]

At a meta level this conversation is funny. Because when humans use genetic editing tools to adjust or alter the genome of an organism, is the human doing the altering, or are the human's genes doing the altering? Seems like a philosophical question.

[@FirstSynapse]

The human. Giving agency to genes as Dawkins only works at the evolutionary level, not for the decisions of individual organisms. At the level of the individual, stochasticity is too large of a variable.

[@StefanTravis]

Scroll down for people not discussing the issue.

[@user-ti8yo8xv4w]

Totally wonderful exchange of ideas and wisdom! ❤ Although I really think that the remarks “Lamarck is back” is radical and outrageous.

[@paulroberts7429]

Incredible debate by 2 real titans of evolution and science a privilege to watch, hope people pick up on Kinesin protein's walking on microtubule and their function which really is the genesis of biology, thanks TiMMoTEuS for a excellent upload.

[@ttecnotut]

I just discovered Noble and I love him

[@knockoutfever4]

Respect to Dawkins for doing this… Dawkins has long been passed by in this field and it showed.

[@bertokleine280]

Brilliant discussion… Lovely debate…..

[@perryedwards4746]

Massively fascinating!

[@ludviglidstrom6924]

Oh, thanks for uploading this!

[@RevanX]

As most people in the comments are evidently ignorant of evolutionary biology, I will explain the nature of this debate briefly: The debate between Dawkins and Noble is a complex one, where neither is "getting schooled" by the other. What a nonsensical thing to suggest. They are both highly influential biologists with different views on how evolution works. Dawkins represents the more popular and dominant idea of modern synthesis, which combines Darwin's theory of natural selection with Mendel's theory of genetics. He believes that genes are the units of inheritance and evolution, and that natural selection is the only mechanism that can explain adaptive complexity. He rejects the idea of Lamarckian inheritance, which is the idea that organisms can pass on traits that they acquired during their lifetime to their offspring. Noble proposes the idea of Lamarckian inheritance as another of many factors that influence evolution. He argues that there are multiple mechanisms of inheritance and evolution, and that some of them involve feedback loops between the genome, the organism, and the environment. He also rejects the idea of gene-centric causation and proposes the principle of Biological Relativity, which states that there is no privileged level of causation in biology. Most biologists agree with Dawkins, as modern synthesis is still the dominant theory in biology. However, the idea of Lamarckian inheritance is on the rise slowly, due to some recent discoveries in the field of epigenetics. Some researchers have suggested that epigenetic changes can be inherited across generations and affect evolution. Dawkins rejects that idea. Some examples of other biologists who criticize Lamarckian inheritance and agree with Dawkins are Jerry Coyne, W. Ford Doolittle, and Eugene Koonin. Some examples of biologists who support Lamarckian inheritance are Eva Jablonka, Marion Lamb, and Michael Skinner. And then there are also some biologists who are "in the middle", like E.O. Wilson who accepts epigenetic inheritance but does not buy into Lamarckian inheritance playing a big factor in evolution. Now, please, keep the Dawkins- and/or Noble-bashing to yourself. I'm betting that none of you commenting this nonsense are actually biologists, let alone would survive a biological debate with either of the two gentlemen.

[@dartskihutch4033]

What team are you on? I think nobels interpretation makes more sense since it doesnt exclude dawkins theory which appears to be pretty concrete on the macro scale but nobel pays more respect to the micro scale principles of epigenetics and the environment's effects on genes outside of random mutations resulting in a benefit (propagation) or detriment(death/not reproducing).

[@leoteng1640]

I’m not a biologist but the logical conclusion seems to make more sense than Richard’s. Creatures have to react to their environment and adapt like growing hair or sweating to regulate heat and on a longer term changes.

[@nycsfinest4712]

Which position seems more likely to be correct?

[@leoteng1640]

@@nycsfinest4712 Lamrkian's notion of adaptation is more correct than the selfish gene concept from my understanding. Our survival is from the outside in, not from inside out. Genes react to our demands to survive.

[@aligudboy]

Not a biologist , but it seems that epigenetics will have a bigger role in evolution in generations to come due to advancement in science but so far the selfish genes have played the main role .

[@chrisdeep8417]

Finally this is coming to light.

[@fahad56297]

The debate ended when it really started to get interesting.

[@techwsina]

The very best of science! Wow! When Richard asks Denis to sign his book is unbelievable! Imagine two religious people having this kind of debate! Denis is great, but he seems a bit confused about the conclusions he draws from certain evidence or study!

[@RogerValor]

why would religious people not have respectful debates? What kind of picture do you have about religious people?

[@algalgod159]

So im half way through the video, and if i understand the discussion well then basically a combination of Dennis and Richard ideas would mean that theres an extra layer on top of natural selection as described by Darwin the layer is that earlier organisms themselves shape the direction in which evolution will happen, not just the environment or chance. Therefore one might say that if say lizards never appeared in the evolutionary tree (but a closely similar organism did nevertheless) then the remaining branches of that tree would be significantly different than if they did appear. Therefore, thanks to the fish for all the decisions it took we came about. Extrapolating more, this shows how intricately tied life is to the environment, and if life was to appear on another planet, it will have to have most of the features adapted to that planet, i say most because the rest could be an adaptation to the universe at large.

[@yoshtg]

all that they are saying is: Denis: "i think DNA reached a point where it has the intelligence to beneficially change itself to its environment within a human lifetime without the need of natural selection" Richard: "i think DNA either changes randomly or not at all within a human lifetime" They can literally just test it because only 3 results are possible, either the DNA doesn't change within a human body, it does change randomly or it actually has the intelligence to change beneficially. its one of these 3 options and all we have to do is run some tests to see which of the 3 it is and we have the technology to run these tests already so just do it and look at the results smh

[@bradronngobe5735]

The ending was beautiful😂😁

[@FrazzleDazzle9]

The part cannot hold the whole, hence the holistic approach makes more sense. The parts have their merits of course, but the whole defines a purposeful system - the essence of existence. Still a long way to explore - eg. the effects of non physical on the physical itself expands the boundaries of a holistic system. Stimulating discussion, and yes civil & eloquent too 😊

[@michelandre8106]

Not only Lamarck but Lyssenko is back😢

[@kofipapa2886]

I could not help but think that if Noble is right Lamarck was right too 😅. But he makes a very compelling case though.

[@Raggamuffin007]

Mayr rejected the idea of a gene-centered view of evolution and starkly but politely criticised Richard Dawkins's ideas: The funny thing is if in England, you ask a man in the street who the greatest living Darwinian is, he will say Richard Dawkins. And indeed, Dawkins has done a marvelous job of popularizing Darwinism. But Dawkins' basic theory of the gene being the object of evolution is totally non-Darwinian. I would not call him the greatest Darwinian. - Ernst Mayr, Mayr insisted that the entire genome should be considered as the target of selection, rather than individual genes: The idea that a few people have about the gene being the target of selection is completely impractical; a gene is never visible to natural selection, and in the genotype, it is always in the context with other genes, and the interaction with those other genes make a particular gene either more favorable or less favorable. In fact, Dobzhansky, for instance, worked quite a bit on so-called lethal chromosomes which are highly successful in one combination, and lethal in another. Therefore people like Dawkins in England who still think the gene is the target of selection are evidently wrong. In the 30s and 40s, it was widely accepted that genes were the target of selection, because that was the only way they could be made accessible to mathematics, but now we know that it is really the whole genotype of the individual, not the gene. Except for that slight revision, the basic Darwinian theory hasn't changed in the last 50 years. - Ernst Mayr, 2001

[@pezkin1059]

this is a very important distinction

[@SpaceCattttt]

I'm not a biologist, so I won't pretend to have an opinion on all of this. But I will say that I didn't expect such an entertaining debate on this topic!

[@KaiWatson]

I wish I was a British gentleman and I could have robust and friendly debates with my friends and fellows in a constructive atmosphere.

[@carlloeber]

It's pretty clear that they both are correct..

[@frogmorely]

@@carlloeber What is clear is the incoherence and ineptitude of Denis Noble-he is an embarrassment. Of the few plausible arguments he eventually stumbles through, they are clarified, qualified, and explained by Dawkins. Science can do without Noble‘s mental infirmity.

[@KaiWatson]

@@frogmorely Respectfully I'd like to see your credentials. Let's see some real technical criticisms.

[@karlbarlow8040]

​@frogmorely Ah ha! The ad hominem approach. Your abusive attitude is rarely employed by the side which is correct. There are many things unexplained and unexplainable by neo Darwinianism, such as the Cambrian explosion. Dna and raw natural selection work great for the pre Cambrian. Noble's argument would have no problem explaining how the systems evolve as per Dawkins, but once evolved, the system manipulates the genome to shortcut the evolutionary process. No one disputes the good ideas that Dawkins expounds, but a better idea could exist.

[@KaiWatson]

@@karlbarlow8040 Kudosing your worthwhile post here. Cheers.

[@terryb41loveofgod]

What can I say, Denis Noble you are a brilliant Biologist, for a man of 86 years you have an incredible capacity to recall so much relevant information with great accuracy. I could listen to this man for hours. Dawkins on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. No matter how many times he contradicted Noble he was quickly put in his place. All in all It was most entertaining and edifying to say the least.

[@davidbarriuso4707]

Incredible to think that human beings have reached the point of scientific advancement to be able to write down with pen and paper the very code that makes us, us.

[@cunjoz]

it is a good sign when the person A summarizes the position of the person B and the person B is nodding enthusiastically.

[@Mkoivuka]

If I understand correctly: Either you start with genes, and the genes inform the cells, and you have an organism; Or, you start with an organism and over time you have complexity which the organism manages with genes. It will be interesting to see which route produces the better results. No shortcuts to rigorous science and empirical testing.

[@FirstSynapse]

What they are both describing, which you summarised adequately, is just a matter of perspective. Both options are technically right given the available evidence. Noble's hypothesis, although not new at all, is more in agreement with the modern scientific field, which has seen a prominent shift from genetics to multiomics. In practice, I don't think there is that much of a difference in terms of the application of either hypothesis for something like biomedical research. No matter what perspective you adopt as a scientist, you're going to immediately crash onto the unsurmountable wall that is complexity, and that's what you'll have to carefully try to contend with to produce meaningful results. Knowing whether the chicken or the egg come first doesn't really matter when what you need to know is why the chicken's brain deteriorates at old age due to dementia. Genetic and physiological experimental techniques are just complementary approaches that are almost always used together. Just don't spend millions on underpowered GWAS studies and it should be fine, even if you are a die-hard Dawkins fan.

[@Mkoivuka]

@@FirstSynapse In neuro side what you describe here is often referred to as "the physics-physiology barrier", for instance a BCI/BMI (a physics-based apparatus) has never directly interfaced with a neuron (a physiological thing) Even Neuralinkk is "just" antennas detecting ambient activity in the brain - zero progress from the 1970's in terms of the science even if engineering is more advanced

[@AB-wf8ek]

I see it as a discussion of the blueprint vs the contractor. Dawkin's argument is that the blueprint is totalitarian, and all instructions flow from it. There's no higher set of instructions. The workers themselves are created from those same set of instructions, so all that is necessary is to understand the blueprints. Noble's argument is that the workers themselves exercise a level of decision-making on how to use the blueprints selectively in order to achieve a higher set of goals dictated by an additional network of encoding. I tend to agree with Noble. He presents plenty of evidence for it, as well as pointing out that this over-reduction of causality attributed purely to genetics has only yielded meager results in medical solutions for disease. Similarly, Michael Levin's work shows strong evidence of a bioelectrical network that displays levels of decision-making on how genes are expressed that can not be explained by genes themselves. The way Levin puts it, it's like we're trying to program a computer by messing with the hardware, when in fact, there's a software level that's much more efficient and that we've been ignoring. Unfortunately, I think Dawkin's over-reductive view of evolutionary biology blinds much of science to this more systematic understanding of biology.

[@entropyinreverse9044]

Well said. This summation helped me understand the debate much better, thank you. (Not a biologist, obviously)

[@nadialindley7696]

Dawkins may worry that he has a lot to loose. But his contribution is recognised despite biology inevitably moving on.

[@afterthesmash]

10:00 Fascinating, but nuts. Unfortunately, I need to think about this in terms of Judea Pearl, and that's never a quick path to a hot take, so my more specific comment will have to wait.

[@willhemmings]

Two veteran heavyweights very carefully slugging it out in the ring. Didn't understand much of that but the conclusion brought together the conflicting themes beautifully. I think Noble was right to be broad minded and I think Dawkins was right to be cautious

[@englishwithmuzammal3596]

The war of words on genes vs organisms. Both giants are not trying to win the arguments but trying to learn what was missing in their understanding. The same goes for those listening to them as what matters at the end is learning not competing in ego. I think Richard Dawkins makes more sense to the information postulated, while the other side seems to be not sufficient in convincing otherwise. Though the claim is fascinating, let's say which way the wind blows in the future. I can't imply that RD is always right and can't be wrong in his research as this is the beauty of science that it gets changed whence the information surpasses the previous one. Genes are the building blocks. I 'The Selfish Gene', read thrice, even though I am not a science student, it's written in such an effortless language, I was able to grasp the information: genes are everything and our bodies are their hosts. Our children are then new hosts, and this is how we live for good. Saying that organisms are the driving force for the genes that later bring changes to the whole scenario, which needs a lot of elaboration with evidence and proof. To sum up, genes and organisms work in a system to cause what they are supposed to. Thank you for reading.

[@aoknoor9395]

Noble was quoting research all the time to support his position.

[@englishwithmuzammal3596]

@@aoknoor9395 Yup, he is but without concrete evidence. His claim is worth considering as I have written in my comment. Deductive reasoning and the premises posed demanded a clear investigation...

[@bn2870]

Wittgenstein helps folks navigate through these paradigms pretty damn easily. But of course Dawkins and company like to shove off philosophy as “ancient.” Um. Yes. Word games, basically. Pivoting from one game to another and using words that shouldn’t cross-over.

[@englishwithmuzammal3596]

@@bn2870 As a religious person, I love reading about science, and RD was the first one who created in me the seed of science. As time wore on, my belief was cemented by reading the science wonders. I wonder how people go astray just by reading about science, which is just one example of the finest knowledge! How things work is the crux of science, while the WHY question still remains untapped. Saying that I DO NOT KNOW makes the person curious, humble, and wise. David Berlinsky in one of his books said that science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind - if I am quoting right. Life is for once, unknown so far, is the survival game of human beings to know its veracity. Thank you for reading.

[@borgholable]

isnt it funny that darwin also studied under lamarck

[@swapticsounds]

This talk might be a historical one.

[@TheSteveBoyd]

The idea has entered my head and now it won't leave. Denis Noble is Dawkins' real-life Ogden Wernstrom. 😂

[@ToriKo_]

I’m not sure this went anywhere. But it’s more likely that I wasn’t able to keep up

[@Crucial288]

Someone correct me if im wrong here: Essentially everything Noble points out here, can be eventually reduced down to "Well what mechanism in the body makes it turn on and off different functions in genes? The rest of the genes". So its just genes all the way down, which still falls completely in line with the idea of "the selfish gene".

[@aoknoor9395]

Watch again I think your missing the point.

[@surajpokhrel8678]

According to you , if all the rest of the genes would do it then why are they mutating for you, if they are sufficient ? Just lack of information !!

[@scaryjoker]

Uhhh, hit the rewind button buddy

[@user-mz8ke7ct5l]

Wow, such an amazing exchange. This is the British way.

[@nycsfinest4712]

Colonialism is the British way 😂

[@radwanabu-issa4350]

The discussion is quite technical and based on huge amount of informations and data but it can be summarized in egg-chicken cycle or gene-organism and who is affecting who?

[@roberto8650]

So many deeply stupid comments.

[@martini3524]

I can only understand the stupid comments. ☹️

[@robertbentley3589]

Just don't come here. Easy

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

Agreed. Including a bunch of creationist nonsense.

[@jimiawaydazeawaydaze]

Paul Whitehouse and Harry Enfield.

[@Rol-fy3my]

Was thinking exactly the same Whitehouse on the left ..😂

[@bryansychingiok]

Wow! Lammark is back!! To some extent

[@Spudmay]

(preface, this is part me trying to further understand the concepts here, so do forgive and correct any misunderstandings) I think that's what should be the focus here: to an extent. Dawkins was right towards the end when he was stating that people may believe in the reality of the improper parts of the concept. From what I've gathered of the talks I've listened to by Dennis (I intend to get the book when I have money!) Is that the organism selects from what is available, and this may also allow for recombination of the available information (the hyper mutation). Continuing with his book example, it is very much like handing down a cook book to your children. The basic information (the genetic coding passed down over time that is fundamental to pull from to even create the organism) for how to make a meal is there, and of course must be passed down as directions, but there are other pathways. My understanding with the heart rhythm example is that the organism itself will take what is available to recreate directions to make this still possible, as the entirety of the organism (we are more than just "I/we," aren't we?) Knows it needs the heart beat. This is my basic understanding of the concepts.

[@bryansychingiok]

Actually I think saying Lamarck is back is a bit of a stretch. Stretching your neck doesn’t create genes that make your neck longer that you can pass to your offspring. But the great discovery is that external factors can select which genes can get passed on. This is a bit different from natural selection where you have to die to extinguish your genetic legacy and the “more fit” brothers of yours survive to pass the “fitter” genes.

[@f4zkh4n]

not sure what to make of this by the end. interested to read opinions of biologists watching this. do recent findings raise doubts about a gene's eye view or from an evolutionary perspective these new mechanisms still wouldn't be significant?

[@leoteng1640]

Denis is saying the passing of the germ line is not certain but optional depending on the circumstances. This is inline with observable phenomenon in our lives.

[@ZebecZT]

noble knows his stuff, dawkins seems a bit outdated.

[@peter4526]

@zebec9117 do not tell this dawkin's acolytes. they might not like that and react rather unscientifically

[@READERSENPAII]

Examples?

[@peter4526]

@@READERSENPAII for what?

[@FlockofAngels]

"It's getting hot in here", says one fruit fly to the other... 😁👍

[@peterwhyte-zl1kv]

It seemed to me that this was a discussion between two people who were both "correct", The genes run the evolution game and the cells, gemules, tubules etc take care of the daily problems. - but I am only a metallurgist (retired). I enjoyed and followed the whole discussion.

[@douglassgreaux3592]

Even for KZbin, these commenters are nuts

[@staycurious2242]

Lets face the fact here people. Denis doesn’t win this debate and he explained more darwinian arguments and some misconceptions. Dawkin made one single mistake that he let the other sign his book which is seen as a form of defeat or the other is intellectually superior by the audience . But why dawkin does that is out of respect for denis. Lamarkism is disproved many times over and over and that’s y richard is baffled by the claim of denis that how come a renowned biologist making such a claim. epigenetic changes can affect an organism’s traits and occasionally be inherited, they do not support the Lamarckian idea of direct inheritance of acquired characteristics. Instead, they add a layer of complexity to our understanding of gene regulation and inheritance within the framework of Darwinian evolution.

[@alexnewton7484]

Google "dias and ressler 2014" and you will soon find that Lamarck is back

[@damianclifford9693]

German physicist Max Planck somewhat cynically declared, science advances one funeral at a time. Planck noted “a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

[@sibycherakathilchacko7392]

Great discourse I think it is fair to hypothesize that Neo Darwinian and Denisien mechanisms co-drives the process of evolution.

[@_a.z]

Lamarkianism.. No this was disproved a long time ago as a fundamental long term evolutionary mechanism!

[@scaryjoker]

Neolamarkism is a thing

[@tomaszdziecielski2634]

What Mr. Nobels says doesn't contradict the main point of Dawkins selfish-gene-theorie. Nobel is trying to be facetious by referring to Lamarck. Amazing gesture by Dawkins at the end.

[@GarethDaviesUK]

Denis Noble's points are fundamentally incompatible with Dawkin's neo-Darwinism. Noble's arguments are evidence based and tied to cutting edge experimental observations. Even the evidence based point that particles can carry RNA into the germline can't be accommodated by Dawkin's approach which, like most dogma, has really not stood the test of evidence based time.

[@austinpowers1061]

@@GarethDaviesUK Dawkins already explained that both temporary changes to the germline AND mechanism-dependent permanent changes to the germline don't impact neo-Darwinism at all. How were you so lost during the conversation that you didn't realise that...

[@MrPochybovac]

What is the name of Denis´s colleague mentioned in 25th minute? Please...

[@rsovat]

I may be wrong, but I think he mentioned Dr. Richard Tsien and Dr. Anant Parekh

[@paulroberts7429]

@@rsovat yes that's correct.

[@TheCagedLion]

A wonderful scientific debate cut short by the blind timekeepers.

[@iluvatarchem]

You do know that venues for debates like this are rented for a very specific timeframe right?

[@tonyhill2318]

You need Noble v. Dawkins or similar in title...this was hard to find and it shouldn't be.

[@KaiWatson]

This! Coming from the podcast interview

[@nessuno3048]

In this occasion Dawkins was outsmarted by Noble, especially in respect to diffulties in establishing well-defined connections between genes and phenotypes, in most cases, and to recent evidence of possible germline genetic modifications which could rehabilitate Lamarck ideas. The only thing which - I think - can be a true mistake by Noble is the use of the phenomenon of sexual selection to support Lamarckism.

[@robertnaylor6119]

I feel that mystery of mitochondria are far more important than DNA.

[@MTSeeker-jc1xm]

The debate could have also happened without the host 😅

[@sergelu]

And ?

[@AjithAjithPioth]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@christophermorgan3261]

Denis Noble is 86 years old.

[@bobalouba81]

Simply having random elements in decision-making (like quantum events or Brownian motion) does not equate to free will. Free will implies that decisions are made by an agent in a purposeful and rational manner, rather than by random chance. I don’t appreciate how Dennis seems to think brownish motion allows for free will, when it doesnt

[@uwen1443]

the opening intro didnt highlights the actual contention but merely frame the difference in perspectives. one is saying it is the engine that determines the output of the car and the other stating it is the entire car itself that do so. Noble has claimed that 20th Century neodarwinism i.e. Dawkins notion of evolution was reductionist n driven by blind watchmaker while his 21st century notion of evolution is integrative and driven by one eye watchmaker. i had posited that Evolutionary Development dynamic is both Path and Context Dependent with increasing complexity as successful outcome to achieve higher equilibrium. from primordial random i.e. blind watchmaker (with intelligence) to one eye watchmaker ( low wisdom) to two eyes watchmaker (higher wisdom) and so on etc. this infers it is driven purposefully in tandem with intellectual development. This is clearly observed in the complexity of evolution of human civilisation where we focus on the object e.g. human component but failing to see it in relation to the entire system that is also evolving in tandem as part of wider cosmic evolution to account for its variants as well as extinctions. what we account for evolution is actually episodic struggle to ensure survival of the fittest where natural selection is only part of the equation. evolution dynamics has been an ongoing system dynamics that makes it irreversible due to inter related and nested cause, condition and effect continuum in seeking higher equilibrium. where the genome tells part of the actual evolutionary development. in my thesis, 10 years ago i have posited that evolutionary development of human civilisation is governed by Path and Context dependency in general but driven purposefully by wisdom which infers perhaps intelligence is fundamental attribute of matter that gave rise to wisdom as well as stochastic expression. yet the notion of Path and Context dependency articulates the contextual or environmental factor in equilibrium with the potential form of being at a cosmic level which shaped the stochastic path expression while epigenesis dynamics of natural selection and its stochastic expression is that within an ecological context that is also evolving resulting in stochastic expression of cultures, ethnicities and epigenetic attributes. clearly they are bi-directional influences.

[@tomashultgren4117]

Dawkins's simplistic dogma about the gene being the driving force behind evolution is dying. And he knows it. He is increasingly desperate. Dawkins has explained that his only regret about eventually dying is to miss out on the development of science and technology. He should perhaps be careful what he wishs for...

[@FredFlintstone-]

That’s too bad, because honesty doesn’t sell.

[@thomasjones4570]

Talk out of your ass much? There is nothing upending anything he said. All science supports his views and even Denis is laughing in agreement with the things he says that shows his work is wrong. That is the difference between Denis and people like you, he is intelligent enough to know his UNPROVEN WORK is wrong. He is continuing to work on it and believe in it because THAT IS HOW SCIENCE ADVANCES. You work on a new theory until work cannot prove it correct. Not when its proven wrong because its wrong from the start.

[@peter4526]

@@thomasjones4570 as far as I have seen Dawkin's only argument during the debate was: but, in the long run! He seems to want to ignore the last two decades of research findings so he can stay true to his position. Maybe he is not ignoring but due to him being a true pop-scientist needing to "debate" intelligent design and islam he found no time to do or at least read some new research.

[@thomasjones4570]

@@peter4526 I suggest you watch again only without bias as even Noble laughed often about how what he was saying was true. SImpletons have no idea that science allows for two opposing theories to exist at the same time and nothing Noble has worked on has shown Dawkins work to be WRONG and vice versa. Thus both theories will continue to be worked on and advanced until one of them are.

[@peter4526]

@@thomasjones4570 always lovely to get an ad hominem! but see as I am a simpleton I should have not seen that one coming... you might want to check the interview with noble - he is pretty clear about where he sees dawkins. he is just a very nice person.

[@jkim3275]

Dawkins has to keep defending his arguments by saying as evolutionist and long run meaning which is telling himself that he is guess elephant by touching its leg only with blinded eyes

[@RevanX]

Well, that's because the vast majority of evolutionists are with Dawkins here. Modern Synthesis is the dominant theory within evolutionary biology. Noble, who is also an evolutionist of course, is a critic of Modern Synthesis. His idea of Lamarckian inheritance, although backed by more than a few of his peers, is still criticized by most though.

[@martam4142]

​@@RevanXGeez, your fallcy never dies, dude.

[@martam4142]

​@@RevanXGeez, your fallcy never dies, dude.

[@semasiologistics]

Fortunately, Richard was there, otherwise, he might not have been able to talk very much. I do like the conversation and the idea that utility plays such an important role. I just wish Dawkins could speak a little more because I think he of course has refutations were it not for his good manners.

[@aoknoor9395]

That’s because Dawkins knows that Noble has a sharp mind. I was amazed at how easily Noble recalled facts.

[@tocreatee3585]

very scientific "chicken or egg" debate.

[@Addarraj]

So dawkins is Still unversed 😂

[@yoshtg]

so if i understood this correctly what was said in the video was: denis: "dna changes during a human lifetime beneficially to its environment and these changes get passed on" richard: "not on this planet, maybe on other planets" i personally would just ask: "okay which changes get passed on and at what intensity" i mean, we shouldn't even have to argue at this and just look at the evidence. we can just check our DNA at 3 years old and then another time at 50 years old and see if the DNA somehow changed beneficially to its environment over time. it will either change beneficially, change randomly or won't change at all. so lets do some tests and look at the results and we have our answers no need to argue if we can literally just look at the results after doing these tests

[@user-li8nm8nz9b]

I think you focused on the wrong detail but do correct me if you think im wrong cause im not scientist, denis is saying choices like for example lifestyle is communicated to the cells to potentially modify its genes and get it passed along if the modification proves useful richard is saying that its not, genes only get passed on based on survival and that the selfies nature of genes (natural selection) causes advantageous genes to naturally out compete non advantageous genes thats why changes in a gene that don't survive for long are irrelevant For me I think people are taking this debat too emotionally because of the implications it has on choice on top of people who hate richard for his god delusion book and some people implying that denis ideas have more wiggle room for the soul but really the debate was very civil, scrutinising ideas are normal and important for the scientific process

[@RogerValor]

@@user-li8nm8nz9b which is tbh. really not usual for him, he obviously respects Noble. I don't think Richard is only hated because of his book, or his contributions, he is probably more hated because he is almost religious in his anti-religious rhetoric, and it is easy to dislike a person who acts humble but is obviously full of himself, which becomes obvious if you are not behind his atheism causes. Probably deists dislike him of simpler reasons, but he gets enough dislikes from atheists as well, who have no interest in meta debates about religion. Dawkins at times sounds like a Creationist who happens to not believe in Creationism.

[@airworker8]

That’s how science was done.

[@zuluvegans6897]

“the more you know, the more you know you don’t know” - Aristotle “as for me, all I know is that I know nothing” - Socrates Both discovered the gaps they have and it gives them opportunity to roll up their sleeves and co-create sustainable solutions for human development 🇿🇦

[@gk-qf9hv]

The reason why this debate was so civilized, is simply that the two gentlemen know what they are talking about. A debate usually turns "uncivilized" is that one, or both, don't really know what they are talking about. Actually, Dawkins for instance, have been engaged in uncivilized debates.

[@abdellahiaioun8430]

One seems very technical and factual and the other less so.

[@baraskparas9559]

Interesting topic in which both speakers are correct. The DNA codes for RNA and proteins that help it to multiply and survive intact while there are over 30 biochemical processes that feed back on DNA to control gene expression and often silence it. Dawkins is most correct because the smallest living thing on Earth is the Cadang Cadang coconut viroid at 246-7 RNA nucleotides long. All it does is use the coconut cell's substrates and molecular machines to reproduce itself by a templating mechanism and does not code for anything but itself. Naked in the environment it could potentially reproduce on volcanic glass as a catalyst by using nucleotides broken down off its neighbour viroids or other detritus.

[@ishyandmikkischannel8811]

That's the linear theory. But then why stop at that? Why not go more fundamental at the level of Quatmtum Mechanics, where is now clear that essential biochemical processes wouldn't be possible without quantum tunneling.

[@baraskparas9559]

@@ishyandmikkischannel8811 To my mind quantum tunnelling is a term that tries to explain the phenomenon of particles often penetrating barriers. This is something best explained by photons and other tiny particles like neutrinos and electrons occasionally " missing everything " in their journey through a barrier. Sorry , but I don't believe in field theories, only particle theory.

[@ishyandmikkischannel8811]

@@baraskparas9559 Ex theotetical physicist here - quantum fiieĺd theory soecialisation in fact. Particĺes don't exist in the sense that you think - they are excitations of quantum fields. You won't even understand how and why a light bulb switches on if you don't realise that fields are fundamental. Further, the reverse proton gradient mechanism for ATP is likely imppssible without quantum tunneling. It's very easy to see that you haven't been exposed to either research level quantum theory, or an investigation into biochemocal processes, or nonlinear systems. If you get to understand these you will begin to realise that Dawkins is still in kindergarten.

[@fredrikpetersson6761]

Dawkins stands his ground in a clear and succinct manner. The other fellow is not totally on board.

[@semasiologistics]

Thank god you managed to come, or we might not have noticed..

[@massivemikeh]

Lol

[@FredFlintstone-]

2:08 whut

[@zbuchus]

Dawkins does not like God as Creator as he thinks the God is human invention, so Dawkinks inveted Self Gene. Interesting logic, do not you think ?

[@frogmorely]

Interesting in a glib way, but it doesn‘t avoid the conceptual utility of the idea of the gene as the unit of selection, nor the uncomprehending mental flatulence of Denis Noble. Speaking of human invention, in the same 1976 publication Dawkins also coined the idea of the meme-the unit of cultural selection.

[@zbuchus]

@@frogmorely His approach is purely speculative, driven by limited knowledge about what influences evolution. He dogmatically insists on finding a 'natural' explanation, without considering that nature itself might not originate from a vacuum as he desires. This stance overlooks the possibility that nature could either be mind-oriented or coincidentally fine-tuned for life

[@inrisalvatore9520]

​​​@@zbuchus his work is not merely speculative, since the observation cofirms the selfish gene theory ,such as in the case of the hymenoptera, there is no way to explain their behavior without the selfish gene theory. Also, there is nothing in the selfish gene itself that leads to the conclusion of the nature originating from the vacuum or the exclusion of the mind-oriented causes in the reality. Just because a given theory doesn't make reference to some causes, it doesnt mean that this same theory is at odds with these causes. This is like someone saying that the math is at odds with the qualitative aspects of the universe because the math only deals with the quantitaive aspects of the reality

[@zbuchus]

Dawkins makes a claim with minimal evidence, rendering it highly speculative. This situation mirrors Darwin's approach with his finches, which he extrapolated to all organisms. Dawkins does this deliberately to fit his materialistic worldview, similar to how creationists operate. The wall that neo-Darwinists have built over the years is gradually crumbling. David Noble, who never appeals to any supernatural force, is a leading figure in challenging this. Time will reveal who is correct. In my view, Dawkins is extremely dogmatic. Have you ever wondered why?

[@inrisalvatore9520]

@@zbuchus nah... The selfish gene is largely corroborated by the observation, which includes computational simulation. Also, what Noble says can perfectly be a paralel mechanism. There is no reason to think that what Noble says is at odds with the selfish gene.

[@mikalshively]

Is there any gene process that is not specifically for producing and folding proteins?

[@pietroxavier2008]

yes, there are some specific for producing and folding RNA molecules which end up becoming enzymes in some cases

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

'There is more evidence for devolution than for evolution' - Derek Prince, King's College Cambridge. 'There is not the creative spark needed for me to believe in evolution' - John Lennox, Oxford University.

[@ludviglidstrom6924]

John Lennox!?🤣🤣🤣

[@RevanX]

Well, to be fair, Denis Noble and Richard Dawkins know much more about evolutionary theory and nature than John Lennox and PASTOR Derek Prince.

[@militaryandemergencyservic3286]

I think you'll find Faraday was a Christian- oh and so were these numerous scientists: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology#:~:text=transfinite%20set%20theory.-,J.%20J.,He%20was%20an%20Anglican.&text=Giuseppe%20Mercalli%20(1850%E2%80%931914)%3A%20Italian%20volcanologist%20and%20Catholic%20priest.@@RevanX

[@Philosophy-vg6ry]

KZbin commenters think Nobel is somehow more convincing must be completely ignorant of basic DNA biochemistry... What Nobel said are true, but I find them hardly convincing towards his argument for the debate.

[@bring-out]

Yeah he's an expert on using irrelevant arguments.

[@imammamunu9537]

This was between a teacher and student