Using an Ultrasonic Cleaner to speed up Evapo Rust’s Removal of Rust Lets Test it

[@argee55]

Thanks for the test. Ultrasonic cleaners are a great addition to the shop. I started my engineering career as a draftsman in the mid 70’s. I was introduced to the device as a method for cleaning my inking pens. I’ve been a believer ever since. Thanks again.

[@dazecars]

glad you liked it

[@elektro3000]

I've been trying out EvapoRust in my ultrasonic with heat. It's VERY effective. I think it also works more evenly because it helps the liquid get into contact with rust underneath thicker flakes or in the bottom of pits much sooner, instead of waiting days for it to soak while the rest of the surface is already down to bare metal. I have my ultrasonic set up in a basement workshop where I can set it running and then close the door while I do things elsewhere in the house.

[@dazecars]

It for sure is a faster way to remove the rust.

[@SwimCoach8]

First, thank you for your time. Excellent videos. I recently watched your video, from ten months ago, using Pine Sol in your ultra sonic machine. I worked in the dairy industry for 40 years. We would switch chemical suppliers from time to time. Reps would come in and educate us on strengths and optimal uses of their cleaners. Caustics, acids, surfactants and normal soaps. The one theme in common with all suppliers....Soaps don't clean, water cleans. Chemicals allow the water to do the optimal job of cleaning. You ran straight Pine Sol in your machine. Imagine trying to clean a floor or a dirty surface by using straight, undiluted Pine Sol. My guess is you would have a mess. Pine Sol and most detergents perform best when diluted to the recommended strength. Usually, the manufacturer will have instruction for moderate to heavy soil dilution strengths. These dilutions are designed to allow the water to effectively remove soils from surfaces. Your ultra sonic cleaner is very aggressive. My guess is, you could use a rate roughly double what the manufacturer suggests and get as good if not better cleaning....And save a bundle of money. I'm no expert in ultra sonic cleaning. As a general rule, more is not always better when detergents are involved. Most detergents are temperature sensitive. That's why Tide makes a special formulation for cold water cleaning. Running an over-the-counter detergent at too high a temp can degrade how it helps water encapsulate soils. That might take some trial and error! Finally. My mother loved Pine Sol. However, when she washed dirty, oily, soiled rags, she used Lestoil. For nearly 40 years, a good soak in Lestoil, then normal washing has been my go-to for heavy soils on cloth.

[@dazecars]

you are completely correct. detergents bind contaminants to water however solvents do not. Pine sol has been proven over and over in full strength to be an excellent carb soak and that is why I did it at full strength building one conceps from others work but future cleaning will involve a diluted mix. I believe part of why pine sol has been proven so effective as a soak is due to the solvents in it plus there is likely some water in it as well. thanks for the comment

[@ThyerHazard]

Once I used Evapo rust plus a heated ultrasonic cleaner I never went back... For bolts and random crap vinegar works fine even simple green does ok, But for machine parts, lathe chucks, drill chucks old squares and machinists blocks vices its almost like magic. and doesn't effect the surface like vinegar will. the heat makes a huge difference, honestly think that part would be done in 45 minutes with heat.

[@dazecars]

thanks for sharing some real world results

[@daveghil]

Agree with this advice. Had a neglected, frozen lathe chuck. Heat and time was key

[@dazecars]

👍

[@MarkATrombley]

It sounds like the next experiment should be sound deadening. Put foam under the machine, build an enclosure, stick rubber to the sides, coat everything in peanut butter, etc.

[@dazecars]

😂

[@melgross]

Mine aren’t that loud. Just fill it to the top mark and put the cover on. Yes, it buzzes, but really, it’s much quieter than any other machine I have including the vibratory tumbler/finisher. If it’s really annoying, just stay out of the shop for 30 minutes. Don’t play with short times, just do it for 30 minutes with heating. There’s no point in playing around. It’s 30-45 minutes verse a full day. Also, in order to really see how it works, you have to do what the instruction say, immediately put it u dear running water and gently rub the black muck off. So I have to disagree here. I’ve been doing this for years and it’s far better. 90% of the time it only takes 30 minutes with heating. So this wasn’t the best test. You have to use ALL of the features of the machine. That’s the only fair test. That’s why the heater is there.

[@dazecars]

I agree. if I wasn't doing it with an "experiment" in mind I would have put it in for longer and let it go but I wanted to see what sort of short term effect there was if any.

[@markmetzger5430]

Great test and I think you came to a logical conclusion! I would like to see the use of abrasives in an ultrasonic cleaner, maybe 1000 grit or higher for removing oxidation on aluminum parts.

[@dazecars]

thats an interesting idea, it would be like a vibration tumbler only ultrasonic. Do they make liquid abrasives because an ultrasonic requires fluid?

[@theoriginalbubba1036]

@@dazecars polishing compound!

[@dazecars]

might be too thick

[@andrewt9204]

​@@dazecarsmaybe a slurry like used in rock polishing compound?

[@dazecars]

👍

[@802Garage]

I have been using Evap-o-Rust in mine for a while. Definitely works better with heat. I like to mix in some with whatever solution I'm using in my cleaner just to help get rid of rust. I often left stuff soak in my cleaner overnight or for multiple days if it is particularly nasty. So it all works out in the end for me.

[@dazecars]

Evaporust works well I just wish it was more cost effective.

[@snake_eyes_garage]

FWIW, I bought a couple of crock pots to hot soak parts in. They work well. I think part of the problem with using plastic containers is that they don't transfer 'sonic' energy well. It's a lot of commitment to fill the cleaner directly with evaporust. I've seen some people use a combination with royal purple directly in their cleaner, but I'm guessing some of the chemical efficiency is reduced.

[@dazecars]

secondary container is common practice among hose who use an ultrasonic cleaner and has been proven to have little to no decrease in effectiveness

[@daveghil]

Ziplock bags for small parts work well. Fill the ultrasonic cleaner with plain water and solvent of choice in the ziplock. Saves on solvent.

[@dazecars]

I have seen reports of mixed results with ziplocks. Some say ziplocks develop leaks while the ultrasonic is running.

[@johncooper4637]

At an Evapo-Rust demo they used heaters and parts were cleaned after several hours. It might have been more accurate if you had washed and brushed the parts after each soaking. I had a Branson Ultrasonic cleaner that did not have a heater but the ultrasonic action heated up the water anyway.

[@dazecars]

Yes even though I was trying to not have heat be a factor it was still a factor. The water I put in the ultrasonic was cold and chilled the solution at the beginning but after running for an hour the water was warm. Not as accurate from a scientific standpoint but I believe the conclusions still hold.

[@rjay1674]

I just commented on your other post so I'll comment on this one also. I used to use Evaporust but it's pretty expensive and it does have an effective life. I actually have a 5 gallon bucket of it in my shop right now that I have not opened because it's expensive and I found out white vinegar works just as well, lasts a long time, and is way cheaper. White vinegar will also remove mill scale from new steel so you can weld, paint, or powder coat without having to grind it off. And if you want it really clean take the metal out of the vinegar after a 24 hour soak, rinse it off in water and then stick it in the ultrasonic with a degreaser for 10 minutes. No sanding or blasting required. I haven't tried vinegar in the ultrasonic though. Maybe you should do that comparison.

[@dazecars]

Testing vinegar is a good idea. IMHO the non acidic nature of evaporust compared to vinegar is something to consider. Given enough time the vinegar will attack unrusted metal whereas the evaporust only attacks the rust. Not as critical on a part that can be fully cleaned after being treated with vinegar but more critical on an assembly with moving parts where it's harder to get into the nooks and crannies. Thanks for the comment

[@notajp]

Even if you don’t turn on the heat, an ultrasonic cleaner will heat the water anyway due to the vibration of the water molecules. The vibration causes friction between the water molecules which creates heat. It’s the same principle that makes a microwave oven work.

[@dazecars]

Excelent point! The water in the ultrasonic did in fact heat up, you can see the numbers on the left side of the cleanewr change as the video progresses. The heat option was off so all the heat came from the ultrasonic action. Interestingly enough the change in temp is both worse and better because the water I put in the ultrasonic was cold when I put it in the ultrasonic, but both jugs of evapo-rust started out at room temperature so the solution in the ultrasonic started out at the same temperature but was cooled by the surrounding water. I believe the ultrasonic solution was only slightly warmer than the other bucket at the end. Basically I could not control all variables as you said, so you are correct not a scientifically valid test but by no means meaningless. I don't think it really matters in this case, being that we started colder and ended warmer it is likely a wash. I try to use as much scientific method as I can within my limited time budget, and capabilities, to prove or disprove the concept which I believe I did in this case. The end takeaway is the same, ultrasonic cleaner helps speed up evapo-rust ability to do its job but not enough to make it worth running the machine unless under a time crunch.

[@swooshdave]

I think it was a good video demonstrating the concept. Some people think these videos have to be flawless scientific experiments. They don’t. Could you have spent months with 50 runs at different times and temperatures? Sure, but why spend all that time for free? This video is just to inspire your viewers to explore this idea in their own.

[@dazecars]

exactly. I try to use enough scientific method the prove or disprove the concept within my limited time and budget

[@sariddle]

I like the test very much. One thing i have done lately was to use a DIY Evaporust (washing soda, citric acid and a little soap, works almost the same). I soaked very dull files in it for a week and after cleaning they were a lot more usable. It mainly eroded away debris between the file teeth that my file card could not remove. I wonder if i did the same but added the ultrasonic vibrations if it would speed up the debris removal to bring them back to life faster. Hit it with heat also to get the most out of it in the shortest amount of time. One thing the ultrasonic helps with a lot is the cleanup after using Evaporust. I put clean water and a little soap or Purple power in it a vibe my parts for 20min and it cleans the scummy stuff off the parts nicely.

[@dazecars]

glad you liked it, thanks for the information

[@danstheman33]

Your homemade solution is nothing at all like Evaporust.

[@dazecars]

lots of "homemade" formulas out there but all the ones I have seen are acid based which is one big advantage of evaporust, its not acid based so it never damages the fresh metal underneath and doesn't need to be nutrlized after use to prevent future rust.

[@randallthomas5207]

Thought for a video: Anodizing. Or perhaps electrolysis, for rust removal.

[@dazecars]

That’s a great idea. I will add it to my list.

[@lowellhouser7731]

Eh, sticking with a jar of white vinegar for rusty bolts. Sure you have to neutralize the acid with baking soda and then light oil, but it works. And I KNOW it works because I once got a GI fiberglass M-14 stock from Numrich that was too rusted to get the trapdoor open or the screws loosened, so I dunked it in a tupperware container of white vinegar and left it there for three days. All came loose with no effort, little Arm&Hammer, little 3-in-1, and it's dandy.

[@dazecars]

I know vinegar works, I just prefer evapo-rust because it does not affect the base metal where vinegar can eat into the metal over time.

[@darkerbinding6933]

To get a true view of the parts status you should have agitated with a brush under running water. Likely a lot of what you see would come off. That would show what rust is really still bonded to the metal.

[@dazecars]

while that is a good point I do not believe it would have changed the conclusions

[@darkerbinding6933]

@@dazecars I'm not sure if it would show more difference or not. I do both Electrolysis and Evapo Rust, for different types of parts. My next step after either is to brush them off in plain water. The parts look quite different after that.

[@dazecars]

I totally agree that brushing would help with either the soaking or the ultrasonic method. My point is the conclusion that I came too of the ultrasonic being faster but probably not enough faster to make it worth running the machine when all you need to do is soak it for a few days is still an accurate conclusion regardless of any brushing.

[@zjtr10since80]

Thanks for sharing your experience

[@dazecars]

My pleasure

[@LilYeshua]

I'd probably would've heated the evaporust in a lidded jar in a pot of hot water. As far as speeding up the black oxide growth would the black oxide crystal growth be the same as in standard blueing practices?

[@dazecars]

heat would have helped for sure but I was trying to see the effectiveness of just the ultrasonic. black oxide is a cold process where traditional bluing is a hot process

[@gorak9000]

What I would like to know is if there are good ziplock bags that actually stand up to ultrasonic cleaners. I needed to clean some fairly large parts (a 6" lathe chuck - too big to put in a plastic jar), and I wanted to use diesel as the solvent, so I put the parts and the diesel in a ziplock bag, and filled the rest of the cleaner with hot water, and the bag completely disintegrated. It still cleaned the parts well, but now I have a nasty mix of diesel, water, and sludge. Interestingly I drained it out of the cleaner today, and I had a white layer that looks like water soluble cutting oil that didn't smell much, and a clear layer on top that smelled a lot like diesel, that was also mixed with some 'globs' of the goo I think got cleaned off of the parts. I certainly didn't expect to get a white emulsion out of it in the end! While I drained it today, it's been sitting a few days since I actually ran the ultrasonic - I don't remember seeing the white emulsion initially when I took the parts out - it was all "clear yellow"

[@dazecars]

I would never put anything that is being used as a solvent in a ziplock

[@gorak9000]

@@dazecars My point was I wonder if someone makes thicker polyethylene ziplock bags - PE should stand up to almost anything - it's very chemically stable

[@dazecars]

probably but I have no clue where to even begin to look. Even so the violence of the ultrasonic action on the molecular level I would worry about what is inside the bags damaging the bag and causing a leak

[@charleswelch249]

The only reason I want an ultrasonic cleaner is for cleaning cast iron tractor carburetors. They usually have sat for decades and they can be very difficult to get cleaned properly. I want a comparison between purple powder and evaporust to see what works best.

[@dazecars]

thanks for the input I will consider it

[@kentwalley1207]

Next time try white Vinegar! I bet it works better. I have used both Vinegar is best

[@dazecars]

Thank you for the comment.

[@jheissjr]

I’m concerned the glass attenuates the ultrasonic in the jar. Can you do a test with a plastic bag and the jar side by side?

[@dazecars]

secondary container is common practice among hose who use an ultrasonic cleaner and has been proven to have little to no decrease in effectiveness

[@justinbelshe]

The machine is more thorough, especially with the heat, especially for carburetors and other intricate pieces.

[@dazecars]

agreed

[@michaelhousman9604]

I would like to see the evapo-rust heated in the ultrasonic cleaner to see how quickly it would remove the rust. You say the container that isn't heated takes 24 hours, and I think it might only take a couple of hours although I don't know how loud and/or annoying the ultrasonic cleaner is.

[@dazecars]

several have asked for that I may do that test as well.

[@rjay1674]

One more comment, my projects, '62 Impala 2DHT and a '64 Chevelle 2DHT. Both were rusty heaps. Not anymore. Gotta save them before it's too late, Right?

[@dazecars]

exactly!!

[@aerostatwv]

Awesome video! I do have a question, is there any difference using a plastic jar vs. a glass jar submerged in the tank?

[@dazecars]

yes it has been reported that glass transmits the ultrasonic waves better than plastic but plastic still works really well.

[@glynnetolar4423]

Those laser based rust removers are amazing to watch. A bit expensive though.

[@dazecars]

I am not familiar with those I will look into them.

[@brandonmiller9667]

Plastic jars absorbs the ultrasonic waves. Eat some jumbo pickles and Use glass it’s a noticeable difference.

[@dazecars]

yes they do, and glass would be better but the plastic still allows much of the ultrasonic action to pass into the inner container, so while it reduces the cleaning action its still an effective option if you don't have a secondary container that is big enough made of glass or metal.

[@james10739]

Well heat makes more chemical reactions happen faster and evapo rust is no different and the ultrasonicness im sure helps knock off loose stuff but i think youd be better off just cleaning the part with the ultrasonic first and then use evapo rush just to conserve the evaporust so you don't have like loose rust in the evaporust using it up

[@dazecars]

yes you always want to knock off loose rust before soaking per the evapo rust directions.

[@I_Am_Your_Problem]

Just keeping the solution above 90f greatly speeds the reaction.

[@dazecars]

I know and I addressed that in the video

[@offgridmanpolktn]

Hey, interesting thanks. A thought, how much does using the plastic container dampen the movement of the sound between the two fluids? The noise while irritating is what is doing the work.

[@dazecars]

I don't think the container inside the cleaner effects it much if at all. That is standard practice for most people using larg ultrasonic cleaners for small parts. As far as the noise it's really not that bad and somthing I can live with in situations where the ultrasonic is really the best tool to use. I still can't justify it here when the results are exactly the same given enough time.

[@offgridmanpolktn]

@dazecars Okay, have never used one of these, just using my understanding of physics and sonic theory from many years ago. Yes people use container s in these, but it lot of times they are metal not plastic. A more rigid substance, such as metal compared to plastic is going to sync and pass on the harmonic (subsonic) wave much more efficiently.. No criticism of this test intended at all. Just curious if using the subsonic s more effectively and also including the heat, could make this method optimal. Thanks ✌️😎

[@dazecars]

I really appreciate the constructive criticism. I have no doubt that what you have said is correct but given the results every day people are having with plastic containers or even plastic bags I wonder if the decrease is only marginal? A great test that I might do as a video would be glass V plastic on a secondary container V no container at all.

[@OldSkoolF]

Why would you not use an Ultrasonic Detergent like Omega Clean?

[@dazecars]

It's not about cleaning its about rust removal as I said in the video. Did you watch it or just comment based on the thumbnail? Detergent will do nothing for rust.

[@OldSkoolF]

@@dazecars It actually does.. But I get it... Its a cleaner... I don't know how it works but it does...

[@dazecars]

if its an acid based cleaner and has something like phosphoric or other acids in it then yes that will remove rust but a basic soap with no acid will not remove rust just dirt and grease. All depends on the formulation of the cleaner. I stand by what I said soaps in general are not rust removers.

[@jimsvideos7201]

Science!

[@dazecars]

I know right!! I couldn't account for all the variables but I think the over all conclusion is accurate.

[@troy3456789]

I thought you'd do progressively longer, like 30 minutes or an hour for the third test.

[@dazecars]

at that point there wasn't much reason to keep going, I had proven it was indeed faster but not faster enough to make it worth using in this particular application

[@pavil58yt]

Use the heater and vibration. That's what I'd do. Otherwise you aren't using all the capabilities of the tool.

[@dazecars]

As I said in the video the heat would have been better but I was trying to do an apples to apples comparison

[@deltaforceaviation7924]

Sorry, but have you used plastic containers? It should be glass to work better on ultrasound cleaner!

[@dazecars]

yes glass is better but plastic works well enough. It's not like the plastic eliminates all the ultrasonic action, it just reduces it slightly. Bigger glass containers of the correct shape can be harder to come by compared to plastic.

[@deltaforceaviation7924]

@@dazecars thanks for your answer and I love your channel!

[@dazecars]

glad you like it

[@PioneerRifleCompany]

You will likely get better results not using a separate container in the ultrasonic, as, particularly, the plastic acts as medium buffer. Good experiment, though.

[@dazecars]

secondary container is common practice among those who use an ultrasonic cleaner and has been proven to have little to no decrease in effectiveness.

[@PioneerRifleCompany]

@@dazecars Interesting. I use an ultrasonic almost everyday and have found plastic containers to be much less desirable, especially as a secondary container. However, end results vary all the time! Would still be a good experiment to perform for the viewers, though. In an ultrasonic cleaner, even the liquid level makes a difference in what happens to the material being cleaned.

[@dazecars]

thanks for the real world first hand information. It would be easy enough to test glass V plastic on a secondary container V no container, I may just need to test that on a future video

[@MrMartinSchou]

Your experiment is not apples to apples, because you're heating the water. The first run you can see the temp on the ultrasonic cleaner is 15 to 16 °C (it fluctuates in the shot) set to 50. Once the 10 minutes are up, the temp is 20 to 21 °C After the next 20 minutes are up, the temp is 25 to 26 °C And after the last 20 minutes, the temp is 27 to 29 °C That temperature increase could be down to the ultrasonic inducers heating up and the water acting as a heat sink, but you failed to control the temperature as intended, but the temperature continues to increase after the ultrasonic inducers stopped working as the video demonstrates. You could also do tests with a hotplate stirrer. Those allow you to see if moving the liquid around is what makes a difference, which it might be with something like the oxide coating. The advantage to those is that they're almost entirely quiet.

[@dazecars]

You are correct, and I applaud your keen eye. The heat option was off so all the heat came from the ultrasonic action. Interestingly enough the change in temp is both worse and better because the water I put in the ultrasonic was cold when I put it in the ultrasonic, but both jugs of evapo-rust started out at room temperature so the solution in the ultrasonic started out at the same temperature but was cooled by the surrounding water. I believe the ultrasonic solution was only slightly warmer than the other bucket at the end. Basically I could not control all variables as you said, so you are correct not a true apples to apples comparison, BUT I don't think it really matters in this case, being that we started colder and ended warmer it is likely a wash. I try to use as much scientific method as I can within my limited time budget, and capabilities, to prove or disprove the concept which I believe I did in this case. The end takeaway is the same, ultrasonic cleaner helps speed up evapo-rust ability to do its job but not enough to make it worth running the machine unless under a time crunch.

[@MysteryValleyRanch]

Let me tell you, if you have hard water and calcium or lime clog up your shower head, drop the shower head in CLR in the ultrasonic cleaner and in 15 minutes it’s almost like new.

[@dazecars]

lots of good uses for an ultrasonic cleaner

[@brettbuck7362]

10-20-30 minutes is nowhere near enough for Evapo-Rust, no matter what the temperature.

[@dazecars]

agreed, proved it sped it up by lot but still not enough to make it worth using

[@RobertWill-uq3iv]

What it really have taken that much longer to add hot water and test again? That's the test I want to see. I'm saying it right here in comments.

[@dazecars]

The issue is a consistent temperature between the non ultrasonic and the ultrasonic. Yes I could have put a heater in the non ultrasonic and heated the solution in the ultrasonic and then used a thermometer to confirm they were the same but that adds a lot of complication. The basic test I did proved it was faster with the ultrasonic and that was ultimately what I was trying to determine.

[@PCMenten]

I’m looking for a failed microwave oven for it motor that turns the platter. Hang your work from this rotating motor and get better penetration into cavities.

[@dazecars]

I can see where that would help

[@abaker7615]

I found this homemade rust remover and it works as well or better then evpo rust and is a lot less expense. I took it one step further and made a gel by adding corn starch 12 tablespoons per liter and heating till thick. It then can be applied to vertical surfaces cover with plastic (used magnets) and 24 hr most rust removed. If deep pits cleaned and recoated another 24 hrs and all rust removed. Coating about 1/8" thick thicker is no advantage, kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIe8i6Cbh8p-gbs Would be interesting test against other rust removers, cold , hot, agitation, electrolyze , and ultrasonic.

[@dazecars]

Thanks for the link I will check it out.

[@timkohchi2048]

Basically meaningless for two reasons 1) the ultrasonic action for 50 min should have caused significant heating of the solution, and as we know heat increases the speed of chemical reactions “logarithmically” so, small changes make big differences in time. 2) the ultrasonic action is displacing loosened rust obviously, and without also displacing loosened rust (by a forceful water blast for example) on the control and only doing the most superficial inspection, no good data. And that’s before bringing up sample size. Don’t get me wrong,I have no doubt Ultrasonic can speed up reactions, but don’t waste my time at least try to make an actual comparison

[@dazecars]

not meaningless the conclusions hold even though I could not control all the variables. The water in the ultrasonic did in fact heat up, you can see the numbers on the left side change as the video progresses. The heat option was off so all the heat came from the ultrasonic action. Interestingly enough the change in temp is both worse and better because the water I put in the ultrasonic was cold when I put it in the ultrasonic, but both jugs of evapo-rust started out at room temperature so the solution in the ultrasonic started out at the same temperature but was cooled by the surrounding water. I believe the ultrasonic solution was only slightly warmer than the other bucket at the end. Basically I could not control all variables as you said, so you are correct not a scientifically valid test but by no means meaningless. I don't think it really matters in this case, being that we started colder and ended warmer it is likely a wash. I try to use as much scientific method as I can within my limited time budget, and capabilities, to prove or disprove the concept which I believe I did in this case. The end takeaway is the same, ultrasonic cleaner helps speed up evapo-rust ability to do its job but not enough to make it worth running the machine unless under a time crunch.

[@johnsb1550]

Got another piece, do it again, run it for an hour, and turn on the heat, damn

[@dazecars]

👍

[@billclisham8668]

Let them both soak for 24 hours and at the end run the cleaner for 10-15 minutes and see if that makes a difference.

[@dazecars]

👍

[@mottthehoople693]

you should look at reverse electrolysis...20 minutes there will be no rust at all..back bar metal

[@dazecars]

i am familiar with the technique. This video was not so much about removing rust and more about seeing the effect of the ultrasonic on rust removal solution.