DB 16 | Mini roundabouts - There IS a priority

SO many times I witness issues at mini roundabouts, mainly from people misunderstanding who has priority in certain situations. Most commonly the problems occur when two vehicles approach a mini roundabout from opposite directions, leading to someone getting things wrong. Here I explore these problems, and how to avoid them.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

I learnt something new today, I learnt that non-motorway special roads must have their speed limits defined within their statutory instruments and signposted explicitly, as the national speed limit only applies to all-purpose roads and motorways, I also learnt that special roads are unusual because they do not constitute a right-of-way, and as such are open to no traffic unless allowed to do so by the Statutory Instrument.

[@keith6400]

I think confusion comes because drivers give way to vehicles coming from the right. However in these scenarios they think you are coming from straight ahead. Although you are coming from the right it is not perceived by many drivers until you turn in. At this point it is too late.

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

Absolutely, I see many comments online similar to ‘there’s no priority’, ‘you’re both ahead of each other etc

[@julianpenfold1638]

When I am cycling I always signal when it's safe to do so, but I would give priority to making sure I have good control of the bike, for example when coming down a hill and needing to turn right or left so braking. A cyclist ought to be stable cycling with one arm only but it's not easy when you are going slowly - for example coming up to a give way, or moving off. In that case, give a signal before you start slowing down much, then another signal once you've moved off and built up speed. But honestly these days I would not go anywhere near a full size roundabout on a bike - at least a mini roundabout, there should be good visibility and lower speeds.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

Hi mate, it’s nice to see another video from you again, it’s the same on every roundabout, always give priority to the traffic coming at you from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights, you should check to see if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way but always look right before joining just in case. 🙃

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

Indeed. With mini roundabouts some people don’t identify where ‘the right’ is as it seems like the car opposite them is not coming from their right.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

Does Highway Code rule h2 apply to roundabouts? I can sort of understand the confusion if they’re ahead of you as they’re not on your right but if they’re signalling right they’re coming at you from the right, if anyone is going to come at you from the right hand side of your car then give way to them, that’s how I remember it anyway. 🙃

[@wrightwoodwork]

@WayneTulip-zm9gw it's a grey area I feel and generally depends on what is happening around you if traffic is flowing freely and fast I won't stop yet if it's slow I may provided I ain't going to put the pedestrian in danger from other traffic . In Europe a lot of roundabouts will have a zebra crossing and people won't enter the roundabout if you are wanting to cross on the lane they want to exit and will let you cross with them waiting further back than normal. A bit like don't enter if can't clear situations

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

You’re absolutely right mate, it depends if there is anyone behind you or not, I guess if it’s just a 1 lane roundabout and there’s nobody behind me then I’d probably give way to a pedestrian who wants to cross the entrance or the exit of the roundabout but if it’s a multi lane roundabout (2 or more lanes on the approach to a roundabout), even if I’m 100% sure that nobody is behind me I’d never give way to pedestrians at the entrance or the exit of a multi lane roundabout as there is always a chance that I haven’t seen someone, if they overtake me and hurt the pedestrian I’d probably get the blame for giving way to them, I’d never ever want to get the blame for that.

[@wrightwoodwork]

@WayneTulip-zm9gw entrances are bit easier if it's stop start traffic and iif 2 lanes and im stopped and I can see the car in the right lane slowing for the pedestrian I will wait as i will soon catch traffic back up . If they do cross I still keep an eye on traffic approaching and if I think they are going to step in front of traffic as they can't see or traffic can't see them i may give a gentle toot to say look out. The thing is it's impossible to write for every situation and relies on everyone doing thier part. It will take time to change but I feel it is . I generally will stop in areas where I'm naturally slowing say coming upto a junction at the end of road or into the junction . Exit of a roundabout I don't really do . Unless it's the situation where the road is blocked and you will stop before the junction on to allow traffic to enter and clear so you dont block traffic. A lot of this I had being doing for the last 30 years .

[@ado543]

The law for give way lines at roundabouts actually does only say you should give way to traffic on the roundabout - it does not mention traffic approaching the roundabout from the right: "Vehicular traffic approaching a roundabout should give way at or immediately beyond the line to vehicular traffic circulating on the carriageway of the roundabout" (TSRGD 2016). Essentially the same wording is used for normal roundabouts and mini roundabouts. This wording works perfectly fine for a normal roundabout, but it isn't really practical to follow the wording to the letter at a mini roundabout, because the entrances are so close to each other. I think a bit of give and take is needed, and it is best to give way to someone who is about join the mini roundabout from the right. The Highway Code does say to give way to the right, which is a good idea, but not quite what the legal definition of the road markings is.

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@ado543 yeah absolutely, I often utilise the dvsa official guide to driving, which does mention traffic approaching. I also often refer to things from the perspective of a driving test and that is of course the gold standard. If I pulled out in front a vehicle approaching from the right and caused them inconvenience I would fail my test

[@susandixon1031]

Missing your videos can we have some more please. hope you and your family are well .

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@susandixon1031 thank you so much. Unfortunately had an accident on a lesson - will be hopefully doing a video tomorrow apologies for the absence!

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

07:15 that’s so strange that you’ve also had fresh chippings, we’ve also had fresh chippings over here mate, if the chippings are very fresh then I’ll follow the advisory speed limit as obviously I don’t want to chip my car and more importantly I don’t want to chip someone else’s car, if I’m in an area where I don’t know how long the chippings have been there for then I start out by doing the advisory speed limit to test the chippings, if some are still flicking up then I’ll stick to the advisory speed limit, if nothing is coming up then I’ll check my mirrors and pick up my speed if it’s safe to do so. 🙃

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

Maybe it was the same highway maintenance vehicle. Hell of a journey though eh! 😜

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

Haha that made me laugh and smile, yes mate, I think you’re right, I think it was the same highway maintenance vehicle, the 3 that you had in driving basics 14! 😜 Honestly mate, I still can’t believe that, I mean..what are the chances of having 3 road maintenance vehicles all in a row? Probably only a 1% chance, but it made making your driving basics 14 video so easy. 🙃

[@ado543]

13:50 I also think the same thing - I don't really care what a letter from the DVSA or DfT says, the public literature (the Highway Code) does not say to give way to pedestrians at roundabouts.

[@wrightwoodwork]

It all depends on the situation if I do signal on the bike. There is more to the signal on the bike than arm There is things like road positioning . So if im going right and have traffic behind and traffic to my left I will put an arm signal on to communicate my intentions I will then use the right lane to go right as that's is where people are looking for traffic that is going right. I don't hold my hand up as road positioning with being in the centre tells traffic I'm going around then I'll signal to leave if if is useful. Being able to cover the brakes is far more important than the arm signal as road positioning is also a form of signal and the arm is confirmation of what I intend to do. So once i signaled and move into the right lane traffic around me knows what I'm doing so holding the arm up is pointless. To go around the outside turning right is dangerous as you risk being not seen by someone or cut in front of you as you go past the junction. It's safer to take the lane and command the space rarther than be in a position vehicles can be besides you

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

Thanks Aaron, great to get that perspective. I think road position will always be the most important. Good to hear you signal and then I would agree let the position do the talking. Must admit I wouldn’t fancy a roundabout on a bike. I do think if I did I would stick with your advice rather than going round the outside. Too many people not Paying enough attention these days

[@wrightwoodwork]

@JamesSimpkinsADI it's not too bad a lot of it, just communication and awareness and planning. So say if the roundabout has 2 lanes on and I need to change into the right. I will start planning and managing the traffic coming past and may try to get a car to come past a bit quicker. So i have a bigger gap to use safely, plus it causes the least inconvenience for drivers as I and the traffic will be at similar speeds going onto the roundabout at say 5 to 30mph depending on conditions. I may start planning where you would get a learner to think about changing lanes, but I ain't changing to nearer to when speed is at 20 to 30 . I will be checking back and watching the drivers and looking for that confirmation, say a flash or hand signal to say I'm happy I've seen you on you go . It's then a hand signal, and thanks. It then means they are now protecting me from traffic behind. Then I will exit off in the left, giving a signal at the penultimate exit the same as you teach. I will then make sure no one is coming past on the left if they are let them and exit in the right and slip in behind them into the left lane. I'm generally travelling at the same speed as traffic around the roundabout. I won't change lanes on dangerously. If I have the wrong lane say I've went somewhere I don't know and the lane heads off then it's simply go the wrong way then pull over in a safe place and get the phone out and look. Drivers ain't mind readers no driver wants to hit a person and sets out to injur any road user.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

11:03 I always signal on my bicycle mate, people need to know where I’m going. 🙃

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

15:17 crossroads are a bit different, some people think that if there is a car at both give way lines then there is a priority but that’s not true, of course the main road has priority over the minor road but when there is a car at each minor road and there is nothing on the main road then nobody has priority, both have give way lines which simply means both side roads need to give way to traffic on the main road but when there is nothing on the main road and there is a car at each side road nobody has priority and eye contact and a decision has to be made as to who would like to go first, it’s courteous to let the car who has been waiting the longest go first but there is no rule, generally if you’re crossing the path of someone you’re going to let them go first but again it’s not a rule. 🙃

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

The main thing here is a car turning right ‘should’ not go first, it should be a vehicle going ahead or left. The car turning right is cutting across the one going ahead or left so it is actually the one going ahead or left that should go first. But of course all depends on the action of the person opposite.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

That’s it mate, going ahead has first priority, going left has second priority and going right has last priority, that’s how I like to think of it anyway. 🙃 That’s what I meant when I said if you’re crossing the path of someone you should let them go first, turning left or going straight ahead you should go first as you’re not crossing anyone’s path, turning right you will always be crossing someone’s path, that’s why right turners have last priority as they will always be crossing the path of someone.

[@zydol1]

In relation to the times when your learner was turning right and cars weren't giving way to you, is it possible that even though you were indicating right, that the bulb in the right indicator wasn't working and people thought you were going straight ahead?

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@zydol1 that was my thought at one point! But definitely working. I think the main thing about that roundabout is most people from the direction I’m going don’t turn right. So people are in what I would call zombie driving, not really thinking.

[@WayneTulip-zm9gw]

12:31 you should avoid doing a u-turn at a mini roundabout. 🙃

[@amybennett9081]

Foo fighter fan here

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@amybennett9081 Dave’s been a bit naughty since this one was made!

[@zydol1]

Hi, I enjoy your videos and learn from them. Keep up the good work! However, I disagree with you about roundabouts. Giving way to traffic approaching from the right only refers to traffic already on the roundabout and not to traffic on junctions approaching it. The roundabout itself (the circle) is the main road with the junctions as minor roads. We give way to the right because the circle is a one-way road going clockwise. The mistaken view that we should give way to traffic on the junction(s) to the right who are not yet at their give way lines doesn't make sense. Why should the junction to the right have special status over the others? If a car to my left passes its give way lines before I get to mine then it is on the roundabout and has established its priority and I should give way to it. You say that people would be racing to the roundabout and that there'd be carnage but I don't think that would be the case at all. If anything it would make things more orderly and stop some people barrelling through when they see someone approaching from a junction to their left.

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@zydol1 I do understand your view, however I only use information from official sources and of course many years of watching driving tests conducted by the DVSA. What I can assure you, is the DVSA official guide to driving quotes ‘give way to traffic approaching from the right’. Also if you were on a driving test and took your view - booting it onto a roundabout with someone from your right approaching at a speed that you will cause them to slow , your test would not go so well.

[@zydol1]

@@JamesSimpkinsADI Do you ever chat with the test examiners? Maybe you could ask how they interpret "approaching from the right"-does it refer just to traffic on the roundabout or also to junctions to the right. Or would they regard such questioning as a bit cheeky! It's not very clear in the Highway Code, as it could be interpreted both ways.

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

@@zydol1 haha I don’t think they’d see it as cheeky. They will stop a car emerging if they feel in danger, if a car is visible and approaching or on the roundabout and a pupil emerged then the examiner watches for any effect on the car. If a car is not visible, pupil emerges, then car appears they would deem any effect on the car the fault of the other road user.

[@wrightwoodwork]

It ain't lack of knowledge just simply poor attitude and simply not looking far enough up the road

[@JamesSimpkinsADI]

Yeah I think well could be, as I said to my learner not many people turn right at that roundabout- so people with a poor attitude will just be in driving mode