DC’s MOST SUCCESSFUL FAILURE | The New 52 Deep Dive | The Comics Pals Episode 412

[@A-Jams]

Sean is the next goat. Love hearing him in these pods. Always brings enthusiasm, articulation, and always pushing the podcast forward. Salute to you!

[@TheComicsPals]

This might just be my favorite comment I’ve ever gotten. Thank you very much! Salute right back at you brother 👊🏾👊🏾

[@MoramothHauntz]

If you don't like DC's landscape. Wait 5 minutes for the next reboot

[@TheComicsPals]

😂

[@bluemarvel3304]

The Golden Age ended with a definitive end for Batman. Then Rebooted with Silver Age. What sucked about New 52 was none of the characters had a definitive end to their lore before rebooting. It was rushed and wasn’t thought out at all.

[@TheComicsPals]

That’s a fair point!

[@scaryharpy]

A new New 52 universe...except for Batman and Green Lantern...That was the first problem! Either reboot or don't!! I want a fresh start with a blank slate. No half measures.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah that showed that they weren’t truly committed right out of the gate.

[@laverdadescatolica5]

What about Suicide Squad?? I haven’t started yet, but was it COOL or nah? 😊

[@scaryharpy]

@@laverdadescatolica5 I don't know about Suicide Squad.

[@laverdadescatolica5]

@@scaryharpy is that a good don’t know or a bad don’t know or just DON’T KNOW? 😊

[@scaryharpy]

@@laverdadescatolica5 I just DON'T KNOW. I didn't read the book or don't remember the book.

[@LittleHooty19]

Loved the deep dive on this! Also fully agree with Sean on the diversity in comics issue. It shouldn't be a crazy idea to want more voices and perspectives in comics, and it's a damn shame it's still an issue.

[@TheComicsPals]

Right, and yet it’s still a conversation point because the problem hasn’t gone away. It sucks. But I am happy that we’ve seen progress. And I’m glad you enjoyed the deep dive! More parts to come!

[@danalvin1184]

A wide range of perspectives that genuinely reflect the vast cultural nuances of the readership is essential, but many perceive this expansion of voices as running concurrently with a precipitous collapse in sales and circulation in recent years, either rightly or wrongly, whether circumstantial or not. The reason why hiring quotas that are not based upon meritocracy remains an issue is because there is a glaring preponderance of barely-passable to poorly written comics in recent years (I suffer through them every week lol), & many people have determined that this is at least partially due to employing creators based upon their physical characteristics & sexual identity, with those criteria being perceived as taking precedence over talent and skill. But of course many men of European ancestry who write comics meet this now all-too-common low-bar of overtly underperforming -- month-after-month for years (I'll refrain from naming names since I'm a new subscriber hah) -- so the general malaise associated with much to most of what the Big Two (especially) release is a position that can't exclusively be connected solely to more recent hiring initiatives in the industry, despite all the loud posturing to that effect. . .my mantra tends to be, "what exactly are the editors editing" on many of these titles?

[@thecomicbookbarbarian5900]

Ok I NEED to join the comic pals, this is the type of content I love consuming and want to produce. Love this!

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you! Hey man you can produce this kind of stuff too! I’m just a guy with a love and passion for the industry. Nothing special about me or the rest of us

[@Triple_Ho]

DC did Batwoman #0-24 (2011-2013), W. Haden Blackman & J.H. Williams III dirty after having elevated the character/title. Creators walked off the project when they weren't allowed to marry Kate Kane in a same sex marriage. That was one of the best (if not the best) creative team during New 52, who hasn't worked with DC since.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah this was one of my favorite books at the time. I was so frustrated with how that all went down

[@solrac4733]

There are clear, objective reasons for the failure of the New 52 (lack of cohesive continuity, pressure to boost sales, new ownership at DC, Didio's biases, etc.). However, there are also many subjective reasons, largely stemming from fans' personal tastes-and at times, even fan zealotry. These opinions often contradict each other, especially when it comes to whether certain changes were for better or worse (like the return of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, for example). Interestingly, nearly 15 years later, some of the New 52 storylines are now considered among the best in the history of certain characters and teams. As a comic book fan since the 1980s, I’ve noticed that many characters have undergone significant changes over the past two decades, even outside of crisis event reboots. For instance, my Batman will always be the version from the late '70s and '80s: a self-confident but not arrogant driven, athletic detective with human limitations, even during cosmic events (as seen in his limited role in Crisis on Infinite Earths). Unfortunately for me, this version no longer exists. Writers like Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have transformed Batman into an almost invincible, arrogant character capable of defeating even Darkseid or playing a pivotal role in DC Universe events like Death Metal. While I don’t enjoy this version of Batman, I understand and respect the readers who grew up with it and love it, for which reason I am not going to start ranting online to impose my personal taste over other fans. I always try to keep up with new comic books featuring my favorite characters because I don’t want to be stuck in the past. Still, it’s clear that my version of Batman isn’t coming back, and if I want to enjoy that take on the character, I’ll have to revisit my old collection. Fortunately, every now and then, a new version comes along that surpasses even my old favorites. A great example is the IDW Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles reboot issues 1 to 100 or Aquaman by G.Johns if we focus on New52. I think it hit all the right notes, weaving a more cohesive story for the Turtles by incorporating the best elements of their original lore. In this way, It's ironic to see how newer fans resist changes when the characters they hold dear had already been dramatically altered by the time they first started reading comics.

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you for the comment. It’s hard for me to fully grasp your perspective on Batman for the reason that my first exposure to him in comics was Morrison, so I’m coming in during the period that altered him. But I respect that your version of him is different than mine. I think the last point you make is one that is so unique to our industry and something we could all do to keep in mind when discussing this stuff: are we really even talking about the same character if your version of, say, Batman is 30 years removed from the one I hold dear? And how do we evaluate change and what characteristics are unchangable when these characters have already undergone decades of change and status quo shifts before now? So much of the way one views comics is based on the exact time at which they began reading them.

[@solrac4733]

Indeed, that is why the traditional debate on "Batman/Superman/Spiderman... is this or that" becomes a passionate but inane exercise. Each reader has a different version of the character in his mind. Reboots or revolutionary authors can bring an end to our favourite version of a character but at least we'll always have the back issues.

[@skamakazi]

You guys are awesome, love you not putting up with nonsense from chat Sean

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you! We generally have an amazing community, but every now and then someone joins the live chat with some bs. Not to be tolerated.

[@jdc4483]

I’ve been an Aquaman fan since the early 1970s and Geoff Johns run of two years of the new 52 was the best characters ever ever been.

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you for sharing that! I have very little experience with Aquaman because I was convinced by the common talk about him that he wasn’t a good character, but I LOVED N52 Aquaman. Geoff Johns applied his magic to a character that desperately needed it, and it worked.

[@jdc4483]

@@TheComicsPals In the late 1960s original series was solid when Dick Giordano took over his editor, Jim Aparo took over the art and Steve Skeats took over the writing. This continued into the 1970s with Aquaman in his own title and in ADVENTURE COMICS, still drawn by Jim Aaro, but now written by David Michalini (sp). Along with the New 52 Johns run, these are the three defining Aquaman runs. (And this from a Nick Cardy fan who is still in surpassed as my favorite Aquaman artist!)

[@Shortboxshark]

What a brilliant video - informative and such progressive mindsets in a hobby often mired in the past. New 52 was an exciting time in comics it shook things up but I only really knew about the surface stuff so it’s great to hear about the behind scenes stuff!Really happy I joined the Patreon and get to support such a fantastic channel in some small way. Look forward to the next part of the deep dive - brilliant comic book journalism guys ❤

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you so much SBS! You’re supporting this channel in a much bigger way than you know: people like you invigorate us to work hard for you.

[@thenightstocker4268]

Look at Kirby’s early Darkseid concept art and compare it to Carmine Infantino, his editor at the time haha

[@UltimatePower01]

I mainly watch after the lives are over, another great video from you guys

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed the show

[@trumangarrick9646]

Same couldn't catch it this morning but watching it now

[@TheComicsPals]

Appreciate you taking the time to tune in 👊🏾👊🏾

[@benjaminloudly]

Great point on the Compact books' pricing actually drawing attention to the already inflated prices of singles. If I was a person trying to get into comics and these were my entry point, I would not be too enthused about moving onto singles or normal sized formats.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, I think it sets a precedent that the rest of DC’s books don’t live up to from a price standpoint.

[@osad1aye]

I did not like DC New 52. At that point I was in my early 30’s and had been reading comics from age 8. I knew this relaunch was not for me, but fair enough for DC trying something new. A few years later and I thought oh wow, this is still a thing. Then Convergence, and what came after I was left confused. I felt too old, and too familiar with how things had been before New 52. It is now 2024, and I still do not quite understand what that whole era of New 52, Convergence, and so on were on about.

[@TheComicsPals]

To be fair I don’t think DC has the answers to what it was all about either. Are you back to reading DC now that New 52 is in our rear view?

[@williamibanez394]

There were a lot of misses in the New 52. I really tried to get on board. In the end I only stuck with Blue Beetle. I got into it hating the writing but by the time the series was cancelled I found myself really wishing it had continued. Oh well.

[@TheComicsPals]

The New 52 is a complicated era and definitely has quite a few warts. That I said I think if you went back you might find a few more diamonds in the rough!

[@lulu_TheWitchBoy]

I have never read new 52, but I was planing on reading some of it. But wow- I did not know that about dc… this is the reason why diversity is so important! Thank you for covering the bad history of new 52. Never understood why people think just because we’re a “small percent” of people, that means we shouldn’t matter. Just looking online you’ll see bunch of lgbt, and woman that love comics. A lot of loud X-men fans are lgbt, woman, or allies. Harley Quinn, and Wanda were made so popular because of woman, and gays.

[@TheComicsPals]

You’re absolutely right on all fronts. People pick and choose their own realities based on their prejudges, and we can see what they’re biased against.

[@Crimsonknight700]

Really enjoy hearing this deep dive into the new 52. Looking forward to hearing more from this series. In the meantime I am going to back and check out the your earlier deep dive series to tide me over.

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank you so much, I’m glad you’re enjoying and listening to our older ones!

[@jjtiffany4879]

Thanks for the discussion. Glad I was not the only one that felt I was getting slapped by dc for being a fan from the 80s and then getting spit on with 52. Also, Dan is a person that I do not respect cause of his hiring, diversity, and the tone of dc going the way.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, even though that wasn’t my experience I wanted to make sure we discussed that many people did have that experience.

[@ahmadrussell7844]

I'm hooked on this deep dive

[@TheComicsPals]

I’m really glad to hear that brother! I hope you enjoy the rest to come.

[@HeroicAge616]

I think the New 52 really highlighted the strength of DC that Marvel doesn’t have, which is that you can play with continuity. If Marvel did this I would end my subscriptions, but New 52 had such good will at first because the characters are icons who work well with fresh starts

[@TheComicsPals]

1000%. I think that’s part of why people connect to Marvel so much too; from the beginning it’s all one story. It’s a gift and a curse for DC. I think they squandered it here but it did work at first.

[@isacctavares1368]

Really like you guys. Subscribed. I didn't like the new 52. It was one of the biggest successful failures in comics, next to All New, All Different. Besides the Iconic Batman series, changing Shazam for the better, keeping the status quo for Green Lantern, making Aquaman the "badass" (even though he always was). And influencing the movies, games, and sighs, the Snyder movies (for the worse). They did hire more women, which is great, Joelle Jones, Mariko Tomaki, Amanda Conner, and the list goes on. In that retrospect it was a massive success. But also a massive failure because it negatively changed or destroyed DC that, in my opinion , hasn't recovered until recently. I was a teenager, and I hated what the new 52 did to the heroes I grew up in the 2000s thanks to the animated series and the post crisis comics. I'm looking forward to part 2.

[@allenwhiteside7838]

For all the Faults with the new 52 and there where many at least got some readable something I havent gotten from DC in a least 5 + years

[@TheComicsPals]

You haven’t found ONE DC book you’ve liked in five years??? That’s hard to believe if you’re reading in good faith.

[@allenwhiteside7838]

@@TheComicsPals Nope and I kept up with it to see if wanted to buy with free comic sites and havent enjoyed a single DC title even for free was still over priced

[@jjtiffany4879]

Thank you for the topics. You all are great and do discuss marvel and dc and comic related topics!

[@TheComicsPals]

Thank YOU for listening! 👊🏾👊🏾

[@Kosmtheandric]

Damn this is shocking and fucked up especially with numbers and everything gives some perspective on the matter. Very interesting deep dive can't wait for the next one.

[@TheComicsPals]

Glad you enjoyed it! The numbers help provide context that is heavily needed to understand the N52 from not only a sales but volume perspectives.

[@TheComicsPals]

Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 04:58 Our Relationship With DC PRIOR to The New 52 12:34 How DC Used Flashpoint to End Continuity and Usher in the New 52 14:20 Enter Dan DiDio 21:49 DC's Announcement of the New 52 27:47 The Official Launch of the New 52 41:37 How Scott Snyder Found out he Would be Relaunching Batman for The New 52 50:20 Our Reflections on the New 52 Launch Titles 1:04:29 A FULL Reboot, Except for Batman & Green Lantern 1:08:12 The Dark & Edgy DC Under Dan DiDio 1:15:50 Sales of the New 52 1:19:45 The Hire Women Controversy 2:09:48 New Palsverse Entry: Garrett 'the Gem Master' Garnett 2:17:52 The Final Four of the New 52 Book Club Poll! 2:26:12 Marvel Events Top 5: Tyler's 2-1 2:34:15 People are ALREADY Mad About the Value of Some DC Compact Comics 3:06:52 Absolute DC IS Ongoing for the Long Term - as Long as you buy it

[@superluigiac]

In general, I do agree that rebooting is "part of the DC DNA", it just felt that it was rushed and not properly planned (we can confirm the first statement given the comments from the creators, since they didn't knew anything). I like the concept of restarting every 15 years or so, so continuity doesnt become too much, but only if it followed Geoff Johns idea from Doomsday Clock: The Multiverse expands on each reboot, and the previous continuity still exists, it just moves 1 Earth over, and can be explored in the future if creators want to.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah I would agree on the idea that N52 wasn’t properly planned. I just can’t get behind arbitrary reboots. Rebooting is too big of a gamble to do so frequently.

[@superluigiac]

@@TheComicsPals that's exactly the point, to not do it arbitrarly. Let's say they make a plan for 15 years, with a final goal in mind, they review progress every year, maybe they extend or remove parts based on success, but that way there is an objetive in mind, and the reboot wont happen just because "we need a refresh": characters were allowed to marry or even die, but we reached a goal with them. Marvel can continue doing their "sliding timeline", but reboots are a thing on DC by nature, since their characters are so old and they usually need re-inventions. The possibility of crossovers with previous versions of characters would be there, I'm really sad that when Post-Crisis Superman came to New 52 he never has a proper conversation with new Superman.

[@mayotango1317]

Is a flop. A DC world with no past (JSA) and no future (Legion) was destined to fail.

[@Flipfone_Jeff]

Snyders Batman was amazing- gave us so many great stories, albeit put him on a different block than the others- the unspoken one that did the same for me was Aquaman. The new 52 stories that title revolutionary in all sense of the word. The books whole run was great. GL, Supes, was hot, but cooled down quick.

[@TheComicsPals]

Yeah, the new 52 definitely had some gems.

[@famousthaneus9810]

Just started the video so forgive me if this gets answered along the way, but aren't we still technically in the New52 timeline? I stopped keeping up with line-wide continuity around the time they sidelined Sideways

[@TheComicsPals]

Great question! We’re going to address this in a future installment

[@tonytheoni]

2:52:56 guy says the last week of N52 #1's was the run-off and coulda used Wonder Woman to anchor it when it literally had Superman, Flash and Aquaman 😂

[@FreshNews247]

Before New 52 I was only reading Green Lantern Ongoing everything else was Ultimate Marvel and anything by Bendis along with the odd Batman "classic" from DC, so I bought the Flashpoint trade, and the guy at the comic shop told me to get Batman and Justice League so I got Batman issues 1 and 2, but I didn't get Justice League after I read Batman I bought NIGHTWING and Aquaman and whatever else looked good. I finally got into Justice League last when I realized Geoff Johns was writing it but I remember buying Vol 1 and Issue 7. Just in time for my favourite JL story Vol 2 Journey of the Villian. So if it wasn't for New 52 I wouldn't have gotten on to DC and why I believe the Doomsday Clock was the final nail in New 52 and DC's coffin for me. But Joker Year One was a nice call back to New 52. Never forget "WTF! Month".

[@Triple_Ho]

Having women in the creative staff is not about attracting a female audience, seeing that as the goal is short sighted. Attracting female talent (or others with a diverse background for that matter) is just about giving opportunities to other people who are just as deserving, if not more qualified creatively than some already staffed. If everyone in comics had that same mindset, we'd miss out on creators such as: Ann Nocenti, Becky Cloonan, Bilquis Evely, Elsa Charretier, Emily Carroll, Fiona Staples, Gail Simone, Jenny Frison, Joelle Jones, Kate Beaton, Kelly Sue DeConnick, Laura Allred, Louise Simonson, Marguerite Sauvage, Mariko Tamaki, Marjorie Liu, Peach Momoko, Pia Guerra, Sara Pichelli, Sana Takeda, Stephanie Hans, Tula Lotay...to name just a few.

[@TheComicsPals]

I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re trying to get across.

[@Triple_Ho]

It was to highlight the points made by the panel to support diversity & inclusion. We still see to this day where women are only allowed to write/draw titles with a main/majority female cast. Or the creator who is a person of color are only put on titles with characters of color. Which doesn’t give much opportunity at all seeing that there aren’t many of those titles from the big two.

[@TheComicsPals]

Ah okay, yes, I totally get what you’re saying now! Agreed.

[@trumangarrick9646]

Maybe cover rebirth next?

[@TheComicsPals]

We just might!

[@dlvnmedia]

I have been reading DC since 1980 and I honestly think the New 52?was the worst thing they ever did. (Outside Amazon’s Attack) - I think Aquaman Batman Nightwing and Green Lantern were the only things I was buying still out of the line - fortunately Rebirth brought me back into the fold

[@TheComicsPals]

What did you dislike about it so much?

[@dlvnmedia]

@@TheComicsPals the lack of history. I love the story that laid out in Post Crisis (and I also loved the pre crisis stuff a ton stuff like earth 2,3 and infinity onwards) this is probably why I love Modern Age DC so much is that Williamson brought that back. To me Josh is a modern saint for giving me back the DC I sorely missed. I should point out Grant Morrison as well for getting the ball rolling as well with Multiversity and his use of one of my favorite old DC characters Captain Carrot - honestly I feel lately that it is one of the better times to be a DC fan. Now where is my Ambush Bug and Space Cabbie appearances DC? You’re killing me here

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

Atomic Hound - I was thinking towards the start of the show that you're (all pals) giving every perspective on experiance in comics when this event dropped, but those that had been part of comics far before 52 (way longer than pals) and those that are very new (way after pals) but to get a content creating guest with those 2 perspectives would be to much at the start of the show. So i was hoping/I am hoping to get those 2 perspectives (vets like atomic hound and newbies like me) making pivitol comments and asking impactful questions threwout this month. I wish I could add much to this conversation myself, but I still haven't read much of the New52. But I did see reviews on every issue of Aquaman by Geoff Johns (channel - Comic Book Breakdown) and at that time this weekly drop was the center of my week. So the only thing I will say is, while I don't know about the quality of storytelling before hand, and it seems right now there are to many story quality complaints - I LOVED THAT RUN AND IT WAS MY INTRODUCTION 2 GEOFF JOHNS, AND IT'S THE REASON AQUAMAN MAY BE MY FAVORITE SUPERHERO COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS!

[@laverdadescatolica5]

FLASHPOINT should have created a parallel timeline running alongside the existing DC universe. This should have been like MARVEL’s ULTIMATEs universe. This would have been a PERFECT jumping on point for NEW fans that had followed the animated content from 90s to early 00s. Maybe in this universe: 1) the FLASH would have been Jesse Chambers. 2) Wonder Woman would have been the last Amazon alive. 3) Batman would have been 50 something. 4) JLA would be the JUSTICE LEGION, led by Wonder Woman. 5) Green Lantern would have been a TEAM. Not 1 guy or gal.

[@TheComicsPals]

Totally agree. I have no idea why they didn’t make it a different universe alongside the main one. The blueprint already existed in Ultimate Universe.

[@Boushh420]

The compact comics argument seems like manufactured anger so of course it came from Bleeding Cool. Gotta make the news when your not leaking stuff for clicks. Much love to the pals. None for Rich and Bleeding Cool tho

[@ReaperXC]

Is it because youre on very fine conditions evergreen show?

[@TheComicsPals]

Could be 🤔

[@graydonkoger206]

The next wave of DC Compact was unveiled as well; summer 2025- Kingdom Come, Static Season One, Deceased, Batwoman: Elegy, Superman: Birthright, Authority Book 1, Superman/Batman Book 1. Honestly may pick up a couple of these for stories I haven’t read to test the waters for Omni/Deluxe editions to gauge my interest. Plus on sites like IST they are only $5.79

[@TheComicsPals]

I can see that as a good use for these from the standpoint of someone who’s more interested in getting an Omnibus. They’ve definitely made good choices as far as which books get compact editions.

[@Patrick-wl6pw]

I not fan new 52 facts

[@yung_lean69]

How about instead of catering to a specific very small minority of readers, just make good stories that anyone can read :) Stop caring about gender/race and just focus on quality

[@TheComicsPals]

Because that has worked to bring more, different people into the fold so well historically right? It’s like you didn’t listen at all.

[@skamakazi]

@@TheComicsPals as a white man its important to me to remember I have a very unique privilege to not have to “care” about gender/race because I’m so pandered to. If you make content by and for only white men you’re only reinforcing the system and limiting yourself and the industry

[@TheComicsPals]

Nailed it in one. Thank you for being one of the ones who gets it.

[@yung_lean69]

@@TheComicsPals That is EXACTLY what has brought more people into comics historically. Groundbreaking stories like Watchmen, Sandmen, Preacher and more are what brings the medium to life. Not the gender or race of the author

[@TheComicsPals]

@@yung_lean69 You're so eager to get your ignorant point across you don't even understand what I'm saying. Just move on.