DCC Power Bus and Track Feeders (143)

[@LarryDeane]

Hey Larry, discovered your channel here a week or so ago, and so glad I did. I've literally watched this video 10+ times, planning out my DCC bus and ordering all of the components you recommended. NCE DCC System came in yesterday, and I hope to start my benchwork soon, so I can everything wired up! Thanks for your channel and all of your great videos, you've even inspired me to start my own channel on my builds and project adventures.

[@keithaleo3712]

Another GREAT video from Larry. Thank you again for all this expert knowledge.

[@chelmscotebranch]

Timely Larry. Am wiring up my layout at present but was unsure about bus connections between boards. Powerpole connectors look ideal. PS. In the UK we wire on the other side - black to the back 😂😂

[@jeffwardlow4626]

Question does the bus have to run under every track or just one bus wire straight through the middle like yours?

[@peterainsworth8466]

Black to the back for me too. That was a great tutorial Larry. Thanks.

[@francis1247]

some say N neutral " Near "

[@AndrewLudmar]

When using 3M suitcase connectors, which is better solid or stranded wire of the sane gague?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ve never noticed any difference. Just make sure the connector you choose is rated for use with both types, some are only for solid.

[@SkipRoGlo]

Have you used the new joiners that are pre wired? Have you had any problems with using the suitcase connectors? Someone told me they can cut through your wires?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I think I reaponed to your similar question a couple of days ago and told ypu then that you must use the correct size connector with your wires. It sounds like you have connectors designed for splicing two wires of similar size 22-18awg). In this case you need: 3M Scotchlok Electrical IDC 905, Double Run or Tap, Red, 22-18 AWG (Tap), 18-14 AWG (Run) This one will allow you to connect the 14awg main bus wire (the run) to the smaller 18-20 awg tap wire.

[@carlosavena6376]

you've become my favorite Model Railroad youtuber as last week i've embraced the DCC world with Arduino and DCC++. I've successfully convert my mid 80's Blue Box Southern Pacific GP9 (Black Widow scheme) into DCC thanks to your video on how to convert an old blue box into DCC. Even though i have a 4x8 layout the wiring is important so this video has the perfect timing - Cheers from Buenos Aires

[@1701_FyldeFlyer]

Excellent vid, Larry. I had my doubts about the 'suitcase' connectors but you've convinced me to use them. Thank you

[@TheDCCGuy]

Make sure to watch my earlier video that I linked to as it has more details on them-Larry

[@brianmeyer2227]

Larry, if I'm only doing one module, what goes on the end of the bus?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Nothing, I promise the electrical stuff won’t leak out the ends of the wires😁. Just make sure the ends of the wires cannot come into direct contact and create a short.

[@kents.2866]

An 0-5-0 maneuver. Lol. It's the subtle jokes that get me.

[@bartthumser]

Hi Larry. Thanks again for your great videos. I wrote you recently about wiring up a crossover with 2 tortoises, 4 signals to a bus bar to connect them , 2 bi-color led's for a control panel and a DPDT switch. I can't find anything out there to help me as I am a former railroad employee and want to create an accurate layout with signals and control panel lights for the turnouts. Thanks again! Please help as I don't have much hair to pull out anymore!!

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ll be wiring up my crossovers and Tortoises next week and may get as far as a control panel (but likely not). However I won’t be covering all your topics as I don’t wire my signals off the Tortoises. I use one of the SPDT switches to control the frog power so the other would be available for signals however I use a completely different signal logic circuit or the DCCconcepts ground signals. I have a couple of videos on those and also one on how to direct wire standard signals off the Tortoise so just scan down through the list of my videos on my channel home page about a year or so ago.

[@John-qy9rx]

Hi Larry, i bought 12 Gauge 12v Remote Wire Primary Cable Red & Black CCA - It bothers me that the rating says 12v since I'm running a 30ft ho scale run with the sb5 booster. It's my understanding ho runs on 14v. But the manufacturer of the wire said 14v is no problem. Also the description of the wire says 8 60 volts dc. I think this is probably just a learning moment for me since my understanding of low voltage wiring is elementary. Thanks

[@TheDCCGuy]

I would think you are OK especially if the maker told you it is rated 8-60 volts. However if you have not installed it and can swap it you might want to do that. The reason I say that is yours is CCA, which means copper clad aluminum and it is not as efficient as OFC or oxygen free copper where amperage is concerned. I have been using 14awg OFC speaker wire on my layouts without any issues since Larry Maier of DCC Specialties recommended it to me. With respect to the SB5 you can set it for track voltages of 12 or 13.8 volts at up to 5 amps, but the CCA wire may drop more volts on long runs such as 30’. Here is a link to the wire I use: www.parts-express.com/wire-cables/bulk-wire-bulk-cable/hi-fi-speaker-wire

[@John-qy9rx]

@@TheDCCGuy Got it, thats what i was looking for. Glad I asked. I couldn't find anything on different types of 12g wiring. I wish Audtek color coated their insulation but that's probably why they are 30% cheaper than colored insulated wires. Thanks again!

[@jjjcmo]

Is there any special wiring for a track crossing with DCC. In my case I have an Atlas 30 degree crossing, part no. 574. The bottom of it shows frog jumpers going in one track direction but not the other. Will I need to add jumpers for the other track direction?

[@TheDCCGuy]

The Atlas crossings I have are independently wired straight through and have never needed any special wiring.

[@jjjcmo]

Thanks sir. Great video, too.

[@alainmeloche1860]

Always instructive to watch your videos, thanks.

[@ronwalters9085]

I am laying track on foam for my yard. I'm concerned that soldering feeder wires will damage the foam. Am I correct and if so how do you avoid this?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I generally use cork roadbed over the foam so not an issue. However I have done a few tracks directly on the foam and if you’re careful you won’t do any damage. If you get too close to the foam it will just form a depression that can be filled later with a small chunk of scrap foam. If you have a lot to fill just get a can of the spray foam insulation at the hardware store and fill it with that.

[@paulgauthier3062]

How would you wire a swing bridge?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I would just use flexible wire and probably add a quick disconnect on the bridge to pull it for maintenance, etc.

[@MRR_Shadowolf]

Absolutely great video! Very instructional for soldering track and connecting under layout, thank you!

[@j.mcq.8418]

Would that electro magnet have any effect on the DCC signal in the power bus?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I see no effects of either the electromagnets or permanent under track magnets on DCC and have never heard of any issues.

[@raytessier2974]

Instead of the scotchlok connectors, can you you a bus bar to connect the rails to the main power line instead? Or would that cause other problems?

[@TheDCCGuy]

You can use all kinds of connections but I find it a lot easier to use these suitcase connectors. It can greatly reduce the complexity but some folks like to have nice tidy rows of labeled connections under the layout. The important thing is to use a method that gives you a good solid electrical connection with low resistance.

[@SkipRoGlo]

Love this video. One question: a friend said these suitcase connectors can cut you wire when you crimp it down. Have you found this to be false?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Never had it happen in 25 heats of using them. However if you use the wrong size connector, say a small connector on a larger wire than it is rated for, then I could see it might happen. But that is why I always tell folks to use the right size connector.

[@SkipRoGlo]

Thank you. My bus wire is 14 gauge wire and my feeders are 18-20 gauge. The connectors say AWG 22-18. Wrong size?

[@MrTopfuel78]

Hello new to all this can you not run the power bus wires straight to the power cab

[@ericwalstrand3512]

What was the purpose of soldering the black and red bus to the black and red plastic thing? Did it get used?

[@TheDCCGuy]

The black and red plastic things are connectors that allow you to separate the modules and disconnect the wiring.

[@brucedennis7392]

Hey Larry, I started watching your videos recently and would like any suggestions you may have for a prototype layout to begin with? I would like to keep it in the Pacific Coast or mountain area.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I would search the MR website online database of layout designs or dig though the past issues and find one that excites you. They also have published a lot of design books some still available at ww.kalmbachhobbystore.com under Model Trains.

[@snafu3714]

Wow Larry you are a Great Teacher. I enjoy all of your videos

[@johnalbiston2116]

hi great stuff, how would block detection affect where you place the droppers

[@TheDCCGuy]

That gets complicated and would require dividing the layout into detection blocks, and then wiring the detectors into one of the bus wires at a point before the feeders. I’ll eventually get to that since I am using NCE detectors on the Piedmont Southern along with homemade logic circuit boards. One complication is that I was using Oregon Rail Supply signals but since the original owner died about 3 years ago his wife has not been able to produce much of anything and I am a bit short on what I need. I may have to find someone who can come up with a design that can be 3D printed by Shapeways. I had a friend who could do that but he died about a month ago. PS-I searched Shapways and found several 3D printed versions and plan to order a set of 6 to complete the PS. This new technology is revolutionizing modeling.

[@davepanichelle1478]

Love all your videos. Question. Can you still use the suitcase connectors if you use the 14 gauge speaker wire for the bus or do you use something else?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I do it all the time.

[@davepanichelle1478]

@@TheDCCGuy Thank you.

[@kenmayer3785]

Thank you for you videos, I have a question, I’m running 12 gauge bus wire, and I’m gonna use 20 gauge feeder wires, what is the best way to connect these 2 gauges, I don’t believe suitcase connectors will work for 12 -20, or am I wrong? Ty

[@TheDCCGuy]

I have never run across a connector for that big a difference in diameters but they may be out there. Take a look at various online sources for things like that and see what turns up. You might see if there is any way T-tap connectors can be used with that big a difference in sizes. I’ve just never had the need to look into this specific question.

[@carlsktx]

I encountered this problem on my old layout and one of my club members recommended connecting a 16 gauge sub-bus as an intermediate between all my feeder drops and the main 12 gauge bus. I actually had the sub-busses connected about every 15 feet to the main bus and extended out 6 feet in each direction. My main bus was 48' in one direction and 45' in the other from my NCE SB5 Smart Booster. I had no problems running 2 consists of 2X2 MU'd sound and nonsound equipped Athearn Genesis engines around the layout. So had 4 sound units and 4 straight DCC units operating at the same time on the double track mainline.

[@Mercatoyd]

Larry, I noticed that you didn't use any flux.. I too use rosin core solder but, I also use flux for a faster connection.. I noticed that you did not nor mention cleaning the solder joint with alcohol after. Do you not do this step? I'm interested in hearing your take on this step. I just received all my wire, connectors, etc to begin the step of running my bus, sub and feeders. This video was very helpful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Tom

[@TheDCCGuy]

I do use a little paste flux sometimes if the job requires it, especially with rail joiners. Jobs that require more heat may result in the flux in the solder being burned iff before the joint is made so a little extra flux can help prevent oxides forming which in turn could kill a good solder joint. On those occasions I do use alcohol to remove any solder residue. I’ll cover more on that in the yard work. I think I also covered it in my previous videos on soldering. There now are some no clean fluxes but since you never can be sure it is all burned away it is a good idea to clean anyway.

[@arniezweig4369]

I'd like to convert my 5' x 16' HO layout to DCC. I am a lousy solderer so to make it easy for me, I solder the feeder wires to a rail joiner and then connect the tracks to the jail joiner. Works pretty well for DC. Will it be an issue for DCC?

[@TheDCCGuy]

My only concern with that is whether you solder your rail joiners to the rails. If not then that means your electrical connection will degrade over time due to oxidation and dirt etc getting in there. I always solder my feeders to the rails and recommend it. You could go back and solder those rail joiners but watch out for the feeders popping off as you heat them. I also wonder how many you used and what size wires. Most DC layout wiring is undersized and feeders are not as close together as they should be for DCC. See my videos on wiring for DCC.

[@markwakeley3835]

I too WAS a lousy soldier. I got a spare track and some wire. I also got an old radio from Goodwill and took out the circuit board and then spend several days practicing. Yea, I melted a few ties and at first the board looked like crap but I soon got the hang of it. Make sure your iron has enough power so you touch the parts for just a few seconds. Good Luck.

[@arniezweig4369]

@@markwakeley3835 Thanks for the tips Mark. I appreciate it.

[@mikepavelich8823]

Larry, should the separate bus for my accessories (building lighting) be the same gauge as my main power bus?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I do. I use 14 ga for my DCC and DC power buses. Resistance is resistance but you may be able to get by with more voltage drop,on a DC bus than DCC since most accessories made for 12 VDC can actually run on lower voltage.

[@dkaustin98]

Great video. I prefer Posi-Taps over those suitcase connectors. Much faster to put in and no tools required. Plus the Posi-Taps are reusable. Changes can quickly be made with no damage to your bus wire.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ll order some and see how they do. Haven’t seen them until now, thanks. Wow, these are expensive, over $1.50 each! I can get Scotchlocks for about $0.25 each.

[@Joe-td4pq]

Do you recommend twisting the bus wire for all dcc systems or just nce? ...and why?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Digitrax now recommends it along with NCE. It helps with electronic noise rejection and helps prevent distortion of the DCC square waves, which can lead to rejection of the DCC commands by the microprocessor in the decoder. On layouts with runs longer than 30 feet (10 meters) and amperages greater than 5A it helps prevent voltage spikes that can cause CVs to change and even kill decoders in extreme cases. On the Piedmont Southern with its long bus runs and high amperages I use 14 ga zip cord which has essentially the same effect as twisted pairs. It really wasn’t necessary on the modules but I wanted to show it to folks who might be building bigger layouts or planning to use their modules with a larger setup.

[@DJackson1882]

Larry, thanks for the videos. A question on the suitcase connectors, can you have two feeder wires come out of one connection going to different devices? Appreciate your insight.

[@TheDCCGuy]

No, you really need to stick with 1 feeder or tap,per connector.

[@DJackson1882]

Thank you for the response!

[@imme6376]

I do have the right connector to wire tool. It's cool to use. I was using wire cutters, a heavier duty type set up to put insulated or unsullied connectors. I would put the powerpole end on the wire and lay it in the slot for unsullied terminals and squeeze it down carefully. Don't squeeze to hard and squish the powerpole to much to each side. It's a bear to slide the plastic cover on.

[@TheDCCGuy]

They also make a small insertion tool but I have never used it as I can usually get the contacts inserted without it.

[@strobelightaudio]

would flux help soldering or does it corrode?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Flux is usually not necessary where the rails and wire are both clean and unoxidized. My solder has a small amount of resin flux in it and that usually does the job. However if a lot of heating is necessary I will add additional resin paste flux since the extra heat can cook away the flux in the solder before the joint is completed. Never use an acid flux or any with zinc chloride in it on anything electrical.

[@charleymartin9422]

DCC Concepts UK have an excellent connector for feeder to Bus.

[@wilzdart]

Nice explanation , which I believe is the heart and soul of a layout. I do have a question: I too solder the bottom of the rail for feeders but I flatten the feeder wire I attach to the rail so it is soldered flat to flat surfaces. I use the 3M brand also and have yet to have an issue after three years. Like you said have a even crimp... they are reusable if some some reason you make a mistake.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Good tip on flattening the feeder, I’ll give it a try and see if it makes it easier. One thing though, 3M recommends against reusing the suitcase connectors. Once the little blade gets deformed on the wire it may not bite properly on a second installation.

[@wilzdart]

@@TheDCCGuy Good to know Have not had any issues though

[@tomduba212]

Larry i have been using wago connectors under the layout i find them much easier than the suitcase connectors

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ll order some of those and we’ll see how they compare to Posi Taps and Scotchlocks, should make a good video. PS-I dug into my electronics stash and found some that I had previously used when wiring some ceiling lights. The problem I see in this specific case is that they cannot connect to a power bus without you having to cut it at the point of connection in order to push the wire into the connector. I prefer to keep wire buses continuous until I reach a point where by necessity I have to make a cut and then I use the Anderson Power Poles to join them again.

[@markwakeley3835]

Thank for another great lesson.

[@jamescraft672]

Larry, a while back, I asked you some questions about twisting the bus wires, and you convinced me that was a good idea for my layout. You also told me about a product you use for your bus wires where the wires come already twisted. I'm using 14 AWG stranded wire for my bus wiring. I think the product you use is some sort of audio system wire, but I can't seem to find it. Can you help me? Thanks. Jim Craft

[@TheDCCGuy]

Jim, here is a link to where I buy mine. The reason this works is because the goal with twisting wires is to get the conductors as physically close as possible. Since in audio wire or zip cord, the conductors are held very close together by the vinyl casing it has the same effect as twisting. Plus it keeps them much closer to the same length that twisting individual wires. Some dealers also sell this stuff with a red and black vinyl case but it is much more expensive. Even though the vinyl on the less expensive version is clear you can still tell the wires apart sine one is bare copper and the other is coated with solder and looks silver. Plus I think there is a rib cast into one side. I think you’ll find this a lot easier to use than twisting wires-I have. www.parts-express.com/wire-cables/bulk-wire-bulk-cable/hi-fi-speaker-wire

[@jamescraft672]

@@TheDCCGuy Thanks, Larry. I love your videos. I always learn something.

[@jamescraft672]

@@TheDCCGuy Larry, I went to the site you recommended. I don't think I got exactly the same product, but I think it will work based on what you've said. I ordered Belden 5100UP 14 AWG 2C cable hi-flex in-wall speaker wire CL3. The reason I picked it was that it obviously has one black and one white wire, inside a vinyl casing. For the other products, I couldn't tell what the wire colors were, and I wanted black and white (or black and red) to help keep track of "polarity." By the way, earlier I though I had bought twisted wire, only to discover that the wires aren't twisted--the wires are connected to each other, but there is no casing. That's the trouble with ordering on-line! I appreciate the extra information you provided. Time to crawl under the table!

[@ronaldlatek8103]

Larry, I must have missed something. In what episode did you actual install track? I am really interested in how you handle rail joiners and whether you solder them. It look like it when you soldered track feeders. I am interested in your techniques to solder rail joiners without melting the ties.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ll get to that when we get down into the yard area. I like to install my turnouts first then add the flextrack between them. I went ahead with dropping feeders and wiring them and will go back to the track. I realize that installing the turnout controllers may be a bit out of sequence but there’s lots to do yet!

[@tomwoodard7038]

I am switching from EZ-Track and I don't understand all this feeder wiring and why do we have to place those feeders so much? What is my actual power box I need to run everything?

[@johntuttle5045]

Unfortunately DCC was state of the art in the 1990's but now very dated. Why all the feeders for DCC, is that the DCC signals coming through the track must be distortion fee and any loss of signal can cause the engines to loose their mind. Some newer DCC boards have a Keep-Alive feature that maintains the engine settings before loss of signal. New modern wireless systems such as Wifi or Bluetooth (Bachmann EZ-App or BlueRails drop-in boards for DCC) are a much better method to control. I use Bluetooth with 178 feet of HO track and feeders every 40 feet and never had any problem. I hate to solder and use pre-wired joiners.

[@gregnastasi4641]

Good information

[@RRWMFan]

Larry, thank you for the video. One question, how much insulation do you remove from the wire?

[@TheDCCGuy]

On the Anderson Power Poles I remove just enough for the end of the wire to fit into the connector. On the feeders just enough so no insulation sticks up above the cork roadbed.

[@RRWMFan]

Thank you. I look forward to more videos. I am going back through your others again for more tips and tricks.

[@PaulSmith-pl7fo]

Hi Larry. Very interesting. It is probably very simple, but you didn't explain/show what happens at each end of the full length of the power bus.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Nothing, you just leave them dangling there, the electrons won’t drip out.

[@PaulSmith-pl7fo]

@@TheDCCGuy But you have to get power INTO the bus in order to distribute it to the droppers.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I showed in the video how to attach a barrel sock connector to the bus so as to attach the power supply. You can put it anywhere on the bus you want.

[@denniswilson2690]

Very well done video as usual. Sorry to hear you're handing over the MR DCC corner.

[@TheDCCGuy]

As I said in the article I have been chasing monthly magazine deadlines for 30 years so it is time for a break. Now I can do these videos on my own schedule and find it much less stressful and enjoyable.

[@ronduz1281]

Keep them coming

[@michaelsmodelrailroading7665]

About twisted-pair wiring, from Wikipedia... Twisted-pair cable is a type of cabling that is used for telephone communications and most modern Ethernet networks. A pair of wires forms a circuit that can transmit data. The pairs are twisted to provide protection against crosstalk, the noise generated by adjacent pairs. Without twisting, buss wiring is susceptible to random impulses from nearby wiring, such as that for switch machines or electromagnetic uncouplers. Brief impulses on the power buss can produce strange, inexplicable behavior in DCC-controlled locomotives. Twisted-pair wiring on the power buss significantly reduces the possibility of such untoward behavior. If you prefer to spice up your operations with occasional dramatics from your locomotives, leave your power buss wiring untwisted.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Thanks for adding that. Twisted pair wiring has been in use for over 100 years, invented by Alexander Graham Bell for telephone wiring. The big difference between DC and DCC is a DCC power buses use data transmission protocols so we have to wire accordingly.

[@carolinafoothillsrailroad4929]

thanks larry great vid

[@mountainman0]

how an expert solder the feeders to the rails and then recommend the use of butcher clips to join your feeders to the bus wires. why would you want to install something that just has to be replaced in12-18 months after installation????

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’ve been using them 20 years and never had to replace a single one.

[@farmerdave7965]

The main problem with suitcase connectors is that they are used wrongly. People are using the wrong gauge wire in them which makes for unreliable connections. IDC connectors are very sensitive about which size wire is used. Also they are not designed for solid wire. As for as wire color, I just choose colors that make it easy to trace them in the event that troubleshooting is necessary. I find that for larger gauge wire, automotive primary wire works well. To twist or not twist bus wire is something I do not worry about since the data rate is so slow.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Exactly! I see so many folks using the larger ones designed for 12-10 ga because it has a twin blade and they think it will grip better. But used with a 14 or 16 ga bus it is worse. Also a good set of pliers with a square bite is important to get a good installation. However all the electronics engineers I have talked with about this are insistent about the value of twisted pairs or zip cord and that includes one who designed for major aviation manufacturers and another who worked for NASA.

[@ProspectorsGhost]

On most DC circuits (especially 12 volt DC circuits), Red is always positive, Black is always negative. - Red is always power, black is always Return. - Not....." Red is Rear," "Black is Front". Even your 12 volt DC Automotive circuits are wired with Red on Positive, and Black on Negative especially the main power cables going to your Battery. Red on Rear, and Black on front would be mighty confusing (both mentally and phyically), to most electricians if they had to troubleshoot and was trying to track down an electrical problem in a multiple wire/component, wiring circuit without having prior knowledge of how that particular electrical or electronic circuit was wired by the designer/builder, that's why the national electrical code was written, so that there was at least a somewhat symbol of standardization among all electrical and electronic circuits. It is labeled under, and called "Safety" ! -12Volts DC wired the wrong way normally don't cause injury or death, but will sometimes cause component failure if wired wrong or backwards, when rehooking up the wires wrong. But when you get into higher voltages and higher amperage, such as over a hundred volts or more it could cause injury or death. Now, say what you will. But in my opinion and with my training in electrical and electronic circuits either, learn the proper way, and do it properly or don't do it at all, and let a person trained to do it the right way do it. As a trained technician I sure would not want to have to start troubleshooting and repairing an electrical or electronic circuit that somebody wired up wrong or backwards or designed with the wrong color codes on the wires. - It's only asking for trouble as well as component failure by not getting it right during repairs and possibly even injury or death because it's not wired properly with the standard color codes according to the National Electrical Codes. - It would be like having the Cardiologist hook up the wires to your heart pacemaker backwards.

[@toddgrx]

Can this wiring setup also be used for DC then later for DCC if one wishes to convert later without having to change wiring components?

[@TheDCCGuy]

Should work fine.