DCS AH-64D Debrief | Pilot error and the steps taken to survive

[@johnnyboy7002]

This reminds me of the minefield incident from the book Chickenhawk by Robert Mason. The lessons that the vets taught him when he was an FNG was not only about what worked by why it worked. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in combat helicopter flying.

[@Talonkratos75]

I've read that book multiple times. As well as Low Level Hell. Both great books.

[@sasquatchycowboy5585]

You turned a simple mistake in a home simulator into a teachable moment. Then built an effective lesson from that. Good job a good lesson.

[@matthancock98]

Without channels like this I probably wouldn't have started playing DCS, apache is my first module. When I was in Afghanistan an American apache destroyed two dudes who were trying to plant HME in the road just a few km from our FOB. I remember waking up to the 30mm chewing them up. Best sound I ever heard. Without question saved some of our lives We were sitting around after talking about how sick those helicopters were, my buddy tells me about DCS and says they're talking about making an apache module...that was 2008 lol. Finally after all these years it's a real thing. To be getting real info and instruction from an actual apache pilot is just the icing on the cake. Thanks for your service and your efforts here with these vids. Im sure there's times where it seems more trouble than it's worth but there's plenty of us out here that are very thankful. Cheers Ret Canadian infantry 3RCR

[@tmting4942]

I like the way how you break-down and analysis each bit of details of this near-emergency situation.. good recovery 👍🏼👆🏼

[@veteran35th]

What I fcukin love about Casmo : No, "look what a star I am in the DCS community". No, "I've actually flown this mofo." Knowledge, and the passing on of it. To virtual pilots who can but dream of his real life experiences. All I can offer are my thanks.

[@RADIOACTIVEBUNY]

I'll never knock an "I've actually flown this mofo" guy. Lotta work goes into earning that right.

[@Leiferic00]

This lesson is Gold for all new DCS pilots like myself. Your breakdown of this incident is so valuable for so many of us learning this beast. Thanks for taking the time to produce this and of course, thank you for your service!

[@chrisd2704]

Another superb vid Casmo 👌🏻 something that often gets overlooked in game because airframes are cheap - but this is bang on. People getting into the habit of declaring (for example) 'escape down and right' when setting into a hover position is not only good CRM but cements that IA in your own mind. Whether it be coming under fire, engine fail or pilot error...having that escape planned is a key element 🤘🏻 This vid perfectly explains why it's so important!

[@metaldetector2152]

Hey Casmo, again thank you for being so active since (and even before) AH64 release; i m not sure but would you mind introduce yourself maybe in a few lines? I tried to see the about tab in your channel but couldn t find much ... i can only remember you speaking about Lafarge site in Syria. If you prefer to keep a low profile that s perfectly understandable and i respect it. Anyway keep up the good work!

[@CasmoTV]

Sure. I’ll edit about page

[@slow9573]

@@CasmoTV “licensed Cessna pilot discusses helicopter procedures” ;)

[@belgeode]

The Transformers wipe gets me every time! 😂 Thanks for the dissection of the mishap!

[@googletrex]

Really badass settling with power recovery at low altitude. The reaction time to do that is no small thing. Been watching your tutorials to learn about the apache, and they have been very helpful. I have been learning to fly in an R22, so stepping into this module has been an awesome experience and it's nice that a lot of the muscle memory I've been training in real life apply in this sim too. Thanks for taking the time to make your videos.

[@jamesc9001]

Thanks for your contributions to this community. This is so much more interesting with the benefit of your experience and knowledge.

[@SargeSHC]

Thanks Casmo. Great instruction on recovery and try not to panic...

[@octanejimmy]

White Board time!!! Reminds me of every NCOPD. Thanks for the explanation. AAR is such a great teaching tool.

[@RRC6490]

I really appreciate how you treat flying digitally like it’s the real thing.

[@therocinante3443]

For the first few days I thought I'd never get the Apache under control.. but practice practice practice and I can almost hover completely stable. Your videos are a fountain of useful information!

[@andreaalbanelli514]

yup ! and he is relaxing

[@stevedavey1343]

" I can almost hover completely stable" I suspect most of us have to add that 'almost' qualifier! :D

[@therocinante3443]

@@andreaalbanelli514 hahaha 100%!

[@hubismaximus]

Perfect -- exactly what I was hoping for when I commented on the short. Thanks a ton!

[@rmp5s]

It's almost like you've flown these things a bit or something. 😆 Good save, man.

[@sohpol]

More of this!!! This is fascinating, even for someone who doesn't play DCS. Helicopters are fascinating!

[@maxpower7466]

excellent debrief... better than any tacview thank you Casmo

[@lukew2031]

Teach us more master Casmo! Geez man, that's so cool of you to share your knowledge with DCS flyers . Thank you for this valuable and clear explanation. Another one well done sir! Keep up the good work. Nice drawings ;)

[@AdamD19D]

Going down to that 20 knot speed range like where this happened to you is always scary for me. I've been using my VKB gladiator NXT's twist grip and the Apache finally forced me to buy rudder pedals, they should be here tuesday I can't wait. Thanks for all the Apache content good sir

[@MikeMartinezR]

Peferct example and description of how to recover!!! nicely done

[@Void304]

Your videos on how to get myself out of trouble help a lot.

[@Todd1215]

great video Casmo! This is all starting to make sense to me. Your a great asset to the rotary head community

[@stovic1442]

This is exactly what I need right now as dropping like a stone every other flight. Thanks!

[@frankwalker3362]

Look up „vortex ring state“.

[@stovic1442]

@@frankwalker3362 Thanks yeah I've heard about that but also apparently overpitch is more common.

[@snotcycle]

awesome video Casmo! dropping under that 30 knot translational lift point while distracted has gotten me into sticky situations quite a few times now haha

[@SebastienChedalBornu]

THANK YOU ! i was wondering what i did wrong several times when i was hover at about 40-60% then falling wihtout finding any reason and pulling the collective even to 100% wasn't enough. I wasn't sure if i was doing wriong or if it was a bug in the flight model. now i know it's my fault and i'ts amazing to see how fast it can sink while you're "almost" horizontal.

[@kenhelmers2603]

As so many folks hover a lot, it is easy to forget this aircraft likes to move :) Thanks Casmo!

[@matthewmcgee]

Hi Casmo. You mentioned getting the rotor disk into clean air, but didn't mention the additional benefit you gained by getting your airspeed above translational lift. I can see the TQ required rapidly drop below 130 as you accelerated through about 35 kts. Nice recovery. :)

[@chipwillis]

your expression told the story so good! From WTF to ohh, I got this and thank you opening to recover into! haha. Like you knew immediately what was going on and had to fight thru it. After flying this thing for a couple hours every day for two weeks now, my scan has improved to keep a hawk eye on the VSI when doing any sort of hover, esp when OGE. It basically helps save getting into those SWP moments to begin with. Its such a thing for me now, where taking less loadout and fuel is a healthy consideration. Keep up the great work and keep having fun while doing it!

[@TheGw166579]

Thx for the video and explanation you can never stop learning and trying to get better

[@sasquatch8923]

Been in that situation. Always try to tell myself, fly the aircraft is priority

[@slow9573]

Great video. Really everyone getting into helo sims should watch this because it’s a great break down and you explain and demonstrate really confusing shit in a bite size way.

[@Longbow7771]

Nice breakdown, keep ‘em coming homie!

[@TheEnemyMind]

Great explained!

[@HclPudding]

This is awesome! I can take these lessons and put them into practice! Damn, it feels good to learn.

[@NeightWolf49]

Crushing these Q&A sessions from the new helicopter guys. Thank you!

[@ComdrStew]

I've done this a couple times. When you hear your Gunner say "OH SHIT" than something is wrong, lol. If you have a ButtKicker you start feeling it when the rotor starts changing. Thanks to the guys that made SimShaker for Aviators for all the work. It is really amazing how you can feel the aircraft. I have the stick and throttle all mounted to plywood on the floor, so I can feel the ButtKicker in the throttle and stick also.

[@Streaky100001]

I've done this a few times, often with the added mistake of over controlling/flailing with the trim in the recovery, and end up with the Apache doing some sort of wild, seesawing thing or spinning like a top, it's fun, would recommend :P

[@Hornet411]

really missed opportunity for a 'record scratch, freeze frame' moment there in the beginning :p

[@paulevans1047]

That's happened to me so many times the mistake i kept making was the increase the collective., Now that you have explained what is going on with the torque i'm sure i can correct for pre plan for this Thanks for making the video

[@johnellenberger1965]

Fantastic video! I did want to ask other viewers: Anyone else picture Casmo in the front of a classroom, in flight suit, doing diagrams and hand motions to a class of students? :p

[@tomshackell]

It really does seem daft that the AH-64D doesn't have a hat to select acquisition source .. it has one for sight select (rarely used by the pilot AFAIK) but not one for acquisition source. Nice video, glad to know even the professionals get into settling with power in DCS sometimes 😀

[@CasmoTV]

Yeah I’ve long said that the ergonomics in the pache are fooked. Kiowa was much better in some regards.

[@eicjc]

Awesome explanation, even though I knew what you did I really enjoyed your breakdown!

[@danielkuliner743]

Great lesson! If only I had known this two days ago 😅 Thanks

[@hexpulatwork]

more users need to watch this

[@Idenwen]

Luke made my day - perfect cut :)

[@timothydavy6431]

Thanks!

[@vedymin1]

Vuichard method works too, even in dcs.

[@1over137]

First time I experienced "settling under power" was a 3D aerobatic RC heli. I was backing in up towards me from way up about 50ft, descending, flying backwards, slipping to the side to line up and when it got down to about 20 ft approaching overhead my brain clicked that my collective was WAY high, the motor was whining and the blades where "clacking" more. With it overheard I had two things to try. "Punching" it or running for cover. I rapidly slammed the collective fully forward to like +15* positive pitch and with a satisfying "WHommp!" it stopped it's descent and flew back away from me. I didn't even realise what it was until later. I just remember that I was under it... a tiny heli with a 1meter blade span.... but with about 200g rotational mass at 3,000 rotor rpm, any encounter with flesh will end badly.

[@jimmorrison2783]

Love the transformers transition

[@jediknight4316]

This is awesome!

[@bigskill80]

Butt Kicker help me to feel what's going on big time not being on a real helicopter. Problem is for now the software is not compatible with the Apache yet :) Awesome Break Down Casmo!

[@stevedavey1343]

Great video. I do have one complaint though. Your new beard makes you look more badass; I preferred the gentler looking, clean-shaven Casmo! :D

[@CasmoTV]

It’ll be gone soon lol

[@stevedavey1343]

@@CasmoTV Oh that's so kind that you'd do that just for me! :D

[@StefsEngineering]

I sort of handled it as if it was a stalling plane, so give it some forward speed (for aerodynamic lift and to get into clean air), lower the collective and slowly increase it to stop the sink. Depending on the severity I flew straight ahead or in a right handed turn to lower the tail torque requirement, and gain some additional torque to stop the decent. Now that I watch the video again I notice that you are doing the same! I think I should have watched the entire video before commenting. Lets check if you explain/adress this behavior.

[@StefsEngineering]

Ah I see you adress this point at 10:30. Cool!

[@tylergorzney8499]

If I was flying using an xbox controller, would you fly with me? lol Love watching your videos. I have always dreamed of flying apaches since I was a kid, but never had the option to be a pilot :( Unfortunately, my living situation does not allow me to setup a flight system with collective, pedals etc, so have to resort to an Xbox controller. Anyways, its great to watch your mission videos, to get a sense of what it would be like to work with a gunner and other flights in an actual multiplayer mission. I will keep dreaming of being able to be part of a great multiplayer mission, and in the meantime, enjoy your videos. Keep 'em coming! I also love your tutorial videos coming from the perspective of learing actual rotary flight from an apache pilot and flight tactics.

[@David-ql1hd]

That's an awesome breakdown! Ever have something like that happen in real life?

[@TylerPL]

Im not apache pilot, but after flying those all week in VR im able to hoover and circle around something keeping my nose all the time at target. Landing and avoiding rockets with gently but side roll, power almost to idle (20-30%) and dive nose down to gain speed BUT (!!!) I always turn left with left pedal to immidietly conter massive spin when finnaly adding power to (80%-100%) and centering pedal and leveling heli by pulling stick in same time. Ill try do a video soon showing what Im talking about.

[@bigcat514]

Really like these informative whiteboard vids. We´re all nerds here so...keep it up :)

[@TrickerDCS]

Thanks for teaching me how to be gud

[@CasmoTV]

You take lots of extra work.

[@aaronwhite1786]

My first 2 days of Apache flying was a lot of me going "Holy hell, this landing gear can take a beating" when I would constantly drop because I wasn't paying attention. You'd think being used to staring at the VVI in the Hind would mean flying with an actual helmet sight that showed my velocity would be easier...but nope... I assume it's also a bit easier in real life, as you've got the feeling of the dropping instead of just seeing that suddenly your indicators are showing a drop it happening.

[@GTRNights]

I used to service Apaches for 1-1 Gunfighters and anytime someone set the bird down a little rough, it was my job to grab my testing gear and go check it out. Hard landings can damage stuff you can't see, so after the mechanics would do their inspections, I would go in with my gear to check for subsurface flaws (like stress cracks, etc...). I don't remember the exact amount of downtime it causes, but a hard landing puts a bird out of commission for a while so that it can be checked out, and that pisses off commanders because they have to answer to higher for their list of downed birds. Obviously, unit readiness should be as close to 100% as possible, so as you can see... that's where things like politics can come into play. You never want the unit commander to look bad because you have a bunch of birds not able to fly and shit rolls downhill. Sorry for being long winded there, just thought you might find it interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes after a "hard landing".

[@aaronwhite1786]

@@GTRNights Oh no, definitely love to hear that stuff! I can only imagine the work that goes in when the pilot either set it down hard, or reported straining the engines as everyone groans and grabs their tools. Even with military tough gear, thinking about the force a hard bounce could generate, and how many sensitive electronics and other instruments there are, in addition to the physical parts of the helicopter itself, it sounds like it could be a nightmare. Hopefully much beer was exchanged.

[@GTRNights]

@@aaronwhite1786 Funny story, once had a rotor head in the shop for an inspection and we found some issues so we needed to take off some parts to get to the one that needed replaced. Unfortunately, some of those parts tend to stick and it's not easy to get them apart. So, after trying everything that we would normally do, we had no choice left but to go with the nuclear option. We pulled out the 32lb sand sledgehammer. So I get to swinging this thing, smacking the rotor head with it. And of course right when I'm in mid air on a swing the shop door opens and the pilot for that particular aircraft walks in. Sees me smacking his rotor head with a sledgehammer. I look at him, my buddy looks a me, he looks at us, and just turns around and walks back out ROFL. You could see the look on his face of "I don't wanna know. I'll pretend I didn't see that."

[@aaronwhite1786]

@@GTRNights hahaha, I guess as long as it gets the job done and the helicopter rotor stays firmly in place when it's needed, all's well that ends well.

[@ShuRugal]

it's astonishing how fast shit can go wrong when flying.

[@dogtaggamer1]

I could very easily see you creating a Helicopter Basic Flight school for DCS training module....

[@CasmoTV]

Balancing the stress to the money… lol

[@gryzor]

I'm a bit confused, you pointed out many times to use Right Rudder, but in the video where we can see your control inputs, you have max left rudder deflection for most of the "fall", am I missing a clue? Great breakdown! this still happens to me in the hind...

[@CasmoTV]

Well if you are hovering you will already have left pedal in. And you’re also seeing the trim position thanks to “video games”.

[@OzDeaDMeaT]

@CasmoTV - Nice recovery mate. So is it recommended to always try and recover to the right of the aircraft to lighten the load on the engine?

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Meanwhile, vsTerminus shows how to fly the thing on a drum kit :D

[@user5553_]

what do you think about flight model? is it close to real one? and what about cockpit shakes and other stuff like in mi8. sometimes i couldn't understand what is happening when i close to hover speed or transition to cruise. i believe ED is going to do some improvements about flight model in the future

[@polarbear4198]

as usually, good stuff, got a question though, what does over torque do to the aircraft, ie, NTC, JRTC usually a kiowa, lands, has to be taken by a low boy trailer back to the airfield from a pilot over torquing.

[@CasmoTV]

Cause it needs an inspection for possible damage.

[@Pteparts69]

over torqueing can lead to extensive damage in components like the mast, transmission, combining gear boxes, and engines. usually, helicopters designed from the ground up for the military such as the apache, chinook, or blackhawk, can take much more torque, as its not unlikely that a pilot would pull 110%+ torque when trying to evade fire or get out of a hairy situation. I'm unsure how well the kiowa handled it, as it was an adapted airframe, however I work on a different militarized bell product, and pulling 105%-110% torque is a huge thing for us that requires detailed inspection or replacement of the aforementioned parts.

[@madingahmar4420]

Funny thing is i learnt this technique in ARMA3s heli dlc

[@jeremyt7722]

I wish Newton and Davinci were around to see what their theories and ideas have led to.

[@tread140]

@Casmo - Do you think this exact problem is more a simulator specific issue? Meaning, in the real aircraft would you have been able to feel the sudden vertical drop/nose going high and been able to react sooner? Meaning that in the sim, since there is no sensation of movement, you are 100% relying on instruments, 100% of the time.

[@CasmoTV]

Well… have you ever heard of anyone crashing from settling with power?

[@tread140]

@@CasmoTV Yup, but have no idea of the frequency or contributing factors of those accidents. So looks like it's a "no".

[@GTRNights]

Casmo, I had something very similar happen to me just yesterday and I don't understand it. I was in a stable OGE hover at 300 and this was holding still over a specific point. I wanted to turn 180 so I payed out some pedal from holding the heading to yaw right and immediately went into a hard drop exactly like this. I didn't tilt, I didn't nose back. It was very controlled and just yawed to the right and not really quickly either. I knew not to upset the aircraft in a hover I try to treat it like an infant that just fell asleep. It took me completely by surprise. Is there something there I can learn from? Some dynamic I don't know about? Any idea what could have happened?

[@CasmoTV]

Hard to say without seeing it. You might have been at lower power margins

[@roter_milan]

Hey Casmo, thanks for this one. Unfortunately this situation happens to me still pretty often but with your solution I'm now able to safe it. How realistic is such a situation in reality? I guess the biggest problem in the sim is the abstinence of the butt-meter, right?

[@tnmonty501]

"""""That's me every flight

[@WiktorFIN]

Hey casmo, that's a great demonstration to better understand the torque vs available enginepower relationship. I kind of have a follow up question to this; Is using the AT-pedals in the same direction as the main rotor is spinning ever a thing? I've heard some say it can marginally increase the relative mainrotor rpm and could potentially be used as a last resort against VRS building up. I realize you're actually doing the opposite in the video and I was just curious if that's ever the case or is easing of the AT pedals always a better option in terms of preserving the mainrotor rpm when pushing the engine to its knees?

[@CasmoTV]

No I can’t see that helping much but I could be wrong.

[@oldmanfunky4909]

George Aka YOU! Does this all the time when I let him fly! Sadly, your AI counter part doesn't recover as well. =P Happens when your tell George to go from a fast speed to a slow speed to rapidly. Say from 120 to 0.

[@CasmoTV]

Noooo I’m only George in the front seat. Don’t put that evil on me.

[@FuriouslyFurious]

I'm certain that you would have "felt" the bottom give out, had you been in a real Apache, way before you noticed the pitch or sink rate in DCS. That is one reason I like the jetseat. It help me feel the rumble in my a$$ before I can hear the blades or see the VSI drop out.

[@CasmoTV]

Sometimes you can but if you are distracted it may not be enough.

[@ricky4001cs]

Are Apache's generally this squirrely in the hover? Even when George is my Pilot he suffers from Un commanded loss of lift under tame conditions.

[@CasmoTV]

Don’t take this the wrong way but it’s not the aircraft. I’ve shown time and again in stream that it’s stable; it’s the pilot that’s the problem. Keep practicing.

[@Jack-Tactical]

What is a typical cruise speed for a loaded Apache? Not talking NOE or anything. Just running 500-1500’ with hellfires and rockets e route to the mission area. Online sources show 145knots which seems higher than reasonable, and maxed out.

[@caiuspostumiusturrinus1024]

Kinda wish the AH-64d had a reverse camera haha

[@Tonkotsu2k10]

Thanks for this. This helps alot. Now if I could figure out when Im landing why sometimes the aircraft wants to flop over on its side after wheels down..... . :(

[@SignumCruxis0]

center your controls once wheels down. Or use the new trim reset.

[@demandred992]

Hey Casmo, would this type of disruption occur IRL when head down? Would you be able to feel what's going on with the aircraft through your body and avoid this type of problem?

[@jolupapi]

IRL, he probably would take 1/5 of the time to switch his TADS source since it's a couple of button presses. He probably wouldn't take his eyes off of the flying for too long

[@Pteparts69]

likely not, since the controls don't have the tendency to shift when taking your hands off of them, which is arguably one of the main disadvantages with home flight sim setups, especially when stick extensions are involved. Force trim on a helicopter is quite an amazing thing, or at least on the helicopters I work on. No matter how you move that stick, if you aren't pressing the trim release, it's doing everything in its power to move the head back to the position it was in. however, everything is possible with our good friend physics fighting us.

[@schoolio64D]

I've never done that.... Maybe.

[@joshprout1726]

Thanks for your knowledge Casmo, quick question is how likely and often in the real world do these issues happen? I guess I am asking would this same issue happen that fast irl?

[@CasmoTV]

Yes it can happen just that fast.

[@0xdfpv53]

@CasmoTV have you heard about the "Vuichard Maneuver"? Named after swiss pilot Claude Vuichard who uses the tail-rotor thrust to effectively push himself out of the ring vortex. Nice real life visualization here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3Oqi3tuhd-Ziqs So instead of releasing left pedal, he actually holds it and adds right cyclic. The tail rotor gives you additional thrust away from the vortex ring, effectively making it the fastest way to get out of it. The cool thing is, it not only works in real life but in pretty much any proper simulator i've tried so far.

[@brazibeatz5187]

what headtracking are you using?

[@briantoplessbar4685]

Can anyone help me understand what blade stall is? Is this an example - or did casmo avoid it?

[@stephentumelty4256]

Are you taking about VRS vortex Ring state? Watch this kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpvIg4Z6qN5gpKc

[@86abaile]

I find it starts settling really quickly and it feels like it just starts to plummet suddenly. Is that accurate?

[@CasmoTV]

If you don’t fly gud, yeah.

[@yourlordct9979]

Hey Casmo I'm currently active duty and am planning on dropping a flight packet. Any advice on where to begin?

[@CasmoTV]

Begin which part?

[@yourlordct9979]

@@CasmoTV More or less the whole packet, barely know what I'm doing. Do you know what is specifically looked at in the paper that has to be written?

[@kiss4luna]

got an idea. can we use this technique intentionally to evade incoming missiles?

[@CasmoTV]

Ofcourse

[@r9xh]

No record scratch in the intro!?!

[@CasmoTV]

I spent all my energy on star wars.

[@cshader2488]

In real life you'd feel the sink immediately and instinctively react, right?

[@CasmoTV]

Probably. Just kinda depends.

[@dogrokket]

Bernoulli!

[@cayenne7792]

Casmo is it really this easy to fall out of the sky and die in the real 64? No software limits, no mechanical limits, no alarms, no safeties ?? Just move the collective a 1/16 of an inch and die??

[@CasmoTV]

I kinda feel like your over simplifying helicopter flight dynamics there a little. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@cayenne7792]

@@CasmoTV I have a warthog throttle mapped to throttle(left) collective(right). Yes, i may have exaggerated to get a point across but I was very serious and hoping for some sort of an answer...a slight accidental over movement of the collective will send the 64 crashing to the ground, is this realistic? I have no formal military training just a simmer. Thank you for the useful content !

[@CasmoTV]

It’s impossible to really answer the question due to curves, conditions, hardware, experience… “no” it’s not that easy but it takes finesse which, frankly, isn’t as required in fixed wing planes.