DCSS: Why (other) people dislike new versions

[@en0n126]

Dungeon Crawl Forum Experience: "Devs are ruining the game by tailoring it to new players and streamlining away too much so you don't even have to think." Same Day. Different Thread. "Devs are ruining the game by making it too difficult in order to taylor to a small number of elite players."

[@NinthSettler]

Oh, yes. The dissonance between different public opinions is quite astonishing.

[@NinthSettler]

Someone just posted a comment like that here, it's fun how some things never change

[@FoobChain]

I have a folder on my laptop with all 30 versions of DCSS on it. Going back to earlier versions is honestly a fun novelty, especially the super early versions (like 0.4) to see how far things have come. 99% of my playtime is and always has been the most recent release, but dabbling back and forth gives a lot of perspective. I recommend it! And it's funny seeing earlier tile sprites for those who play tiles. Now if only I could track down that Trunk Branch that had Lava Orcs...

[@NinthSettler]

I think it was only in an experimental branch and was never in trunk. You might be able to find it if you ask in the roguelikes discord.

[@KlayThorn]

I might be weird, but I miss things like hunger and cursed items. It is quite a hilarious experience when you take a risk and equip a sexy glowing unidentified mace only to find out that it is now stuck to your hand and you can't butcher your fallen enemies anymore and now you are on a timer to find a scroll of remove curse or the game is over. But I understand that these types of mechanics could never be balanced for competitive environment of tournaments. I also loved some minor details, e.g. being able to cling to walls in spider form, equipment racial bonuses, these kind of things. All in all, some of the older versions could make you feel like you are almost in a survival game with some unique challenges and ways to solve them. Sure, newer versions are streamlined and the entry threshold is much lower, but I feel like that all my characters I take to extended are all very homogenous with the same meta spells, skills and equipment.

[@NinthSettler]

You are weird

[@kiraPh1234k]

I don't miss hunger, it was tedious to the point of pointlessness. Nothing complex about it, just actions you had to do. I do miss cursed items though. They were fun and interesting. Now you have to quaff a bunch of mutation potions and worship Xom to get similar effects but then you're intentionally looking for these negatives and it's not the same.

[@neilfmoore]

Hi from a mostly-retired devteam member. I appreciate this! Also, if you ever need to remember how to spell the name of the god Hepliqlkana, remember: "'Highly educated' players lecture implementors, advising 'keeps lacking quality and new additions'"

[@NinthSettler]

Is that seriously the origin of hep's name

[@neilfmoore]

@@NinthSettler No, it's just a mnemonic / backronym I found a while ago.

[@mm1k1]

I used to play a lot of crawl, and these arguments have been going on since before I stopped playing which was about 5 years ago. Ultimately all complaints about the game would be shut down by either 1) someone pointing me to the document with the design philosophy, 2) being told that I should play a fork of dcss or 3) that I should stop playing if I don't like it. So I chose 3) and stopped. Ultimately, the game is less fun for me than it used to be, and there's always someone around who really likes the game as it is right now to tell me that I if I don't like all the design decisions of the dev team that I should play something else, and that's the ultimate argument used to shut down any kind of complaint. So I don't play crawl. What I don't understand is what is even the purpose of asking for a comment? I could give you a list of 5 things that got changed in crawl that sucked the fun out of the game for me and we'll ultimately get to the point in the argument where the result is going to be 1), 2) or 3).

[@NinthSettler]

That seems about right, nothing wrong with playing something you don't like. I, for one, think more games should be like crawl. The design philosophy would be like steroids to some of the garbage AAA devs shovel out.

[@mm1k1]

@@NinthSettler My conclusion is exactly the opposite. In my opinion crawl design is archaic, and if you want to see how a roguelike that has learned some game design lessons in the last 15 years looks like, look at ToME 4. It has no grinding either, but also no consumables, scaling difficulty, and (for the most part) a friendly and non-elitist community. To each their own.

[@NinthSettler]

overworld mobs are grinding and a failure in terms of game design at the same time

[@xyzasdf]

@@mm1k1 I've played hundreds of hours of tome4, but probably less than 50 in DCSS. I certainly agree that there are a lot of very interesting and good developments in tome4, like the talent system replacing consumables, and each turn has a very complex set of actions you can take. In DCSS, it almost feels like each turn is either move, bump, zap, quaff, read scroll, or evoke. The variety of different interactions between talents in tome4 is very intriguing to me. On the other hand, as NinthSettler mentions, in the video, DCSS is focused on making what's optimal, also be fun. Tome4 completely misses the mark on this one. There are so many bugs and exploits and quirks that are just a result of how the game is coded, which result in optimal (safest and most consistent) play not being what's most fun or what one would expect it to be at all. For instance, the safest manner to progress in tome4 is to run away each and every time you see a potentially dangerous enemy (or avoid triggering it altogether with infinite dig/track), and then dip in and out of other zones fighting the weaker enemies until eventually the previously dangerous enemy is now trivial. But you don't even have to do this, because in tome4, you can in theory skip the vast majority of dungeons and just complete the few required enemies to be killed (master, guy in reknor, pride leaders, sorcs, etc). In DCSS, the zones which do not directly contain story items (runes) actually lead to the necessary zones, unlike in tome where each zone can be entered separately and basically have no interactions. Overall, while tome4 does some awesome things with the talent system, DCSS at least sticks to the "optimal is fun" philosophy, which plays quite well imo. There is also a huuuuuuge amount of tedium in default tome4 with managing items, going between shops and other zones, load times, silly optimal zones like the Arena, and so on.

[@_mwk]

Maybe I just suck, but Opportunity Attacks nuked melee for me. Before you could play melee and still escape a bad fight by running to a stair, getting away with random energy, and leaving to fight another day. With OA, trying to run from any fight is guaranteed death. You can never get away from an enemy by running, only take constant attacks. Therefore as a melee character (in the early game especially), every single fight is 'tab until victory or die', you have no other options. A year back I could take a gargoyle fighter to 15-rune a few times. With >0.29 I can't get one to lair.

[@NinthSettler]

Consumables

[@_mwk]

@@NinthSettler Your fighter gets one might potion to start. MAYBE that'll save you from turning a corner straight into a D4 ogre, at which point you have about two unknown potions and three one-stack scrolls.

[@aivokallo77]

​@@_mwkThat's one thing. If developers are so keen on streamlining things and their lackeys keep telling people to "use your consumables", then why the f the consumables identifying mechanic is still in the game? I have no idea how does that fit in with the philosophy, where the game 'rewards' so-called optimal gameplay. Just remove the mechanic! People need at least a chance when they meet a Steam Dragon on D:3.

[@slowpace6641]

Was introduced to DCSS in 2012 or 2013, played until 2016 and came back this year, 2023. Found the game MUCH better. No more food, no more cursed itens, no more ammo hoarding, no more carrying book, no more EIGHT lair floors or FOUR level in Orcs...... dev team really went in the right way. To compensate the lack of micro, they made the dungeon more difficult, a little, one or two more monsters in a mob, spells are now more powerful in monsters. It´s a FAIR trade off. Some gods changed a lot, would say. And some races are now odd (where is the original centaur?). But the game is cool as it was, without some annoyoing things. What I miss the most is the acess to good weapons, now finding a strong weapon in early game is CRUCIAL, and when you find it you can STEAMROLL content. What I miss so much is the mutation meta...was so fun.

[@ninjanoafa8636]

Thanks so much man.

[@colgatelampinen2501]

I am pretty new player myself, I started in 0.25 so I do not have experience of some old mechanics like victorydancing. Generally so far that I have played I have liked new versions more than previous funs. Recently I had Lugonu game on trunk waiting for Lugonu rework to test it ASAP so I went back to 0.29 lack of damage rating for unarmed felt really bad when I got used to seeing it in Trunk.

[@heinrichody7166]

Its interesting how so many people seem really unhappy with the direction DCSS is taking. I really like most changes. I like how curses now work, how traps work and that they remove tedious bullshit stuff. I am not sure about new hell yet. I like that the different branches are more unique, and the new constant hell effects are a nice twist. The monsters there did not grow on me so far, I think. was a little sad seeing DeepDwarfs go or Pakellas not stay, but all in all I really like most changes.

[@neilfmoore]

I'm a bit sad we didn't find something better to do with Pakellas. Sadly, when it was clear that rods needed to be removed, there wasn't much reason to keep that god :(

[@barracacubica151]

What is the dcss last good version then? I like the actual one but i dont like some changes mentioned

[@NinthSettler]

good is subjective

[@OfLanceTheLonginus]

.18 - .2 After that it’s all downhill, don’t listen to anyone else

[@Alanis1337]

I've been wanting to get into this roguelike for a while. I'd like to ask what version you personally recommend I start with. Should I even start with DCSS? I heard some say forks like Kimchi Crawl are better.

[@NinthSettler]

You should play trunk, because you're devoid of bias. The opinions you have seen are ones from people that do not particularly vibe with crawl's design philosophy and by extension get mad at changes that perfectly fit within the design philosophy. This is not to say that you should not play other versions or forks, by all means if you're interested in them play them. I just personally recommend and play trunk. Play everything, and form your own opinions!

[@IDontReadReplies42069]

Removing food and cursed items are the best changes maybe to any game ever. But i definitely miss the immersion from things like monsters getting shafted or even pikels slaves running around the dungeon after freeing them. It used to feel like a role playing game. Now it feels like an underwhelming tactics game.

[@NinthSettler]

monsters still get shafted

[@yjre]

Interesting. I started playing in 0.7 i think and have 200+ wins about 30 being 15 rune and a new version was always what made crawl special to me. New patch releases combined with the online tournaments were something i always got excited for. I haven't played in a few years (last time I played was around the time hunger was removed) and im interested in seeing all the changes

[@NinthSettler]

There will be a tournament in a couple of weeks, consider joining the roguelikes discord

[@danielsharp2012]

I stopped playing. Why it became impossible to beat. Went from sometimes winning to never. Some changes i liked alot i didn't.

[@NinthSettler]

0.29 has good winrate compared to 0.28 and 0.27

[@massivegeeb6663]

I think i started playing when wants of healing were a thing, or disarming traps & food were mechanics. I cant lie i do find myself enjoying .29 sometimes but not as much as the other versions ive played since i started god knows how many versions ago. But although i still enjoy crawl, the difficulty sometimes is deterring and it only seems to be getting more difficult. ive decided to take a break and thanks to you i decided to try rift wizard, which im quickly starting to fall in love with. i think alternating between rift wizard & crawl will be what i need to fill my cravings to crawl

[@NinthSettler]

Rift Wizard is a great game.

[@kiraPh1234k]

I suck, never won yet. That said, the part i find to be frustrating is just how much changes when i come back ro play again. Trying to figure out how to carve corpses, oh they removed that, cool change but confused at first. Go to play venom mage, oh uts alchemist now. Go to play the abyss knight, oh, it doesn't exist anymore. But regardless, the game is fun. IMO, the best in its class

[@NinthSettler]

you can always just play whatever version you want

[@NinthSettler]

also rift wizard is a better roguelike than crawl

[@kiraPh1234k]

@@NinthSettler haven't played it, but I'll check it out

[@kiraPh1234k]

@@NinthSettler I've checked it out now. I'm highly disappointed. I get the appeal, but to call it better than crawl is a stretch for me. Dylan is extremely lazy, short sighted and strangely political with his opinions on what a gamer should be. His decisions with the game aren't something I can support, and that's just being polite about it. KZbin wouldn't like me sharing my actual opinion of this man. The game doesn't have a bad design or a bad core mechanic, in fact, I think it's pretty cool but I'll pass. This is probably an unexpected and maybe even extreme seeming reaction, but just know it's cause I've read what he has to say in his replies on his steam community pages and I feel some type of way about them.

[@NinthSettler]

what are you talking about?

[@TradeMarkedIdiot]

I don't think the DCSS design philosphy works for DCSS. If it did, then autoexplore wouldn't be so necessary. The gameplay loop, the core of DCSS, generally is "most encounters are chaff, but 10% or so of encounters are dangerous - you need to determine when and react correctly". You can see how this doesn't work with a 'crusade against tedium': it's a very long game, and most encounters mean nothing (i.e. they are tedious). Even with all the attempts to make the post-early-game more interesting (less chaff, harder mid-game branches), this is still a fundamental part of the game. It's not to say that making the game less tedious is bad - things like no victory dancing, no item destruction are good to play. But there's a limit. You can't act like the design philosphy is "objective" or "irrefutable" because following it 100%, IMO, doesn't work for this game. Luring is always gonna be optimal, you can't fix it without making an entirely different game (e.g. Rift Wizard). You can see things like 0.28 Abyss being reverted, or player ghosts vaults, or magic staves being "stat sticks" being major exceptions. And I severely doubt that Spriggan will be axed in the near future. So what I can judge is gameplay, and pillar dance nerf is very bad for gameplay in my eyes. It introduces unfair RNG deaths (even with the consumable!). It makes the early-game, the most difficult part for streaking, even harder... while doing next-to-nothing by the time you reach Lair branches. I agree that pillar dancing is annoying but my gripe is about player power. If you gave everyone a wand of heal wounds with 5 charges, it'd be good, but of course this shouldn't be done. (sorry if this is a repost, not sure if it got filtered)

[@NinthSettler]

On one hand i disagree, because crawl is just the game crawl is, but on the other hand i would like a shorter game that's more difficult and engaging at all points without the crazy swinginess of DCSS. Such a game is called Rift Wizard. I, too, dislike getting killed by randomness, but i can guarantee attack of opportunity-related deaths are uncommon, at the very least. It would be nice if crawl's randomness was toned down so that there's not as much disparity between the really weak characters and the really strong ones. This would allow for better balance. I don't think the devs particularly see this as an issue to address, however.

[@TradeMarkedIdiot]

New thought: Once you hit S-branches or so, you can reset fights easily, since stairs exist & you have consumables/god abilities. Pillar dance lets you reset fights in the early game, so it would be nice to still have. The problem here isn't that "AOO-related deaths are uncommon", it's that they are possible. Very very bad for streaking. Look back at the philosphy - the whole point of removing tediously optimal things is "players feel like they have to do [tedious stuff] or have a chance of dying. The (old, but now more necessary) optimal would be to heavily rely on luring for most floors, which is more tedious than pillar dancing. E.g. you have to walk every single monster to a stair if you want to use stairs, at least with random energy you could walk back if you wanted to. Of course RNG deaths have existed long before 0.29 but obviously AOO make them more common.

[@ChamblesRNG]

Question: does the type of items dropped changes depending on the kind of character you play? I seem to find a lot of stuff that suits my immidiate needs

[@NinthSettler]

no

[@ChamblesRNG]

​@@NinthSettler good :) I like when its random

[@Tiax776]

Time limit Teleport traps on stairs Having too strong enemies way too soon without having a way to deal with them Centaurs are gone Formicids can't really dig anymore Replacing all the other starting spell books with garbage except Wizards Nerfing Condenser Vane Keeping Spirit amulet and Acrobatics amulet on autopickup forever even though nobody would ever want the most useless amulets in the game Making nets absolutely useless Replacing a lot of good spells with utter garbage (eg. blastmotes etc.) Can't run away from enemies if they're next to you Only good things in the newer versions are, no hunger, no cursed items. Also, can someone explain how the hell formicids shaft themselves a random number of levels. They're the ones doing the digging. Not that it matters since the whole strategy for formicids was to dig kill holes but now you really can't.

[@NinthSettler]

But the time limit is about as impactful and relevant as the old time limit (food)

[@Quietype-p2y]

Couldn't focus on anything. Kept getting sidetracked to your game.

[@Grussen69]

I´m prolly in the minority but I quit not due to the streamlining and Quality of Life-changes, I was all for removing Food, weight etc. Naw, what really ticked me off was how the game ever since back in version 0.10 the item-zation has gotten worse. Now they have tiers of weapons and armour and even tiers on mutations (Demonspawns can´t get the good ones until very late in character level). When I started playing the game back in 0.0.8 I was really hyped for how good the itemzation was and the fact that even low level toons could find some decent gear. Now you cannot find decent gear (at least in my experience) even if you worship a god that is specifically designed to give you decent gear (like Trog used to give Broad axes or Executioner Axes of Antimagic fairly early on or even Okawaru gave nice stuff). Good luck getting something of use from any of those in newer version. Even getting a regular Great Mace or a Shield which used to be common stuff is now really hard. Stores seem to specifically avoid selling gear for items that you have trained for and random artifacts seems to always come with one major negative effect. I hated it so much that I just stopped playing. Fast forward a couple years; Saw your videos, got inspired, DLd v.0.29 and rolled a Minotaur Berserker and again not a single useful axe in 17 levels and eventually I died cuz I couldnt get a broad or a battleaxe (forget Exec. Axes). Then I rolled a VpEn and couldnt get a single Dagger with any + or brand for 16 char levels and a real shortage of "Enchant Armour" and "Enchant Weapon" scrolls. No thanks, it seems even worse than before. (Sorry, hate to sound like a whiner but you asked and this is my honest opinion why I quit the game). DCSS used to be my a favorite Roguelike but those changes to drops ruined it for me.

[@NinthSettler]

I'll make a video where I talk about this soon

[@shadowdweller6738]

They have progressively removed my favorite races, classes, and items from the game for AFAICT generally bad reasons. For example centaurs, sludge elves, crusaders, rods of smiting

[@NinthSettler]

Centaurs were pretty lame, and while palentonga was underpowered, even if interesting, armataur is significantly more appealing than it's predecessors. Vhi's electric charge was a nice thing to come out of that, too.

[@shadowdweller6738]

@@NinthSettler Centaurs were awesome and had an actually semi-distinct niche. As opposed to yet another melee race with yet another charge ability.

[@NinthSettler]

tell me about all the other species with charge abilities

[@shadowdweller6738]

@@NinthSettler I didn't say another species with charge, I said yet another charge ability. Analogs include Wu Jian and Dithmenos god abilities; and armor items "of rampaging". None of which are tactically interesting or exciting.

[@NinthSettler]

During this week, I've played different characters with Wu jian and with rampaging, and both have felt like powerful things to have on my characters. Armataurs have rampaging innately, it's a great property for a melee only character.

[@Benis6687]

Just recently started playing DCSS but using the kimichi branch of the game. Does kimichi do a good job of capturing the original DCSS experience?

[@NinthSettler]

I have never played kimchi

[@Benis6687]

@@NinthSettler fair enough thanks for the reply

[@capwhat-340]

When I heard stuff like food and victory dancing was removed I returned to the game and began watching your videos. It can be hard to draw the line on what is an unfun/tedious mechanic and what is considered "necessary gameplay" but the changes that I've seen have only been for the positive. I kind of wish inventory size was a little bigger still but it's nowhere near as bad as the huge stashes I remember making in Lair back in the day.

[@KidMangaX]

I don't understand peoples' need to defend every single change that the DCSS devs implement. This has always seemed to be such a ridiculous position to take... Not everything that we do in life is good, you know? Am I perfect? No. Are you perfect? No. Are the DCSS devs perfect? No-- But, if you say so online, then you must "prefer obsolete, oldschool rougelikes such as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup." Some of the changes they have made over the years have just been patently unnecessary-- removing bolt spells is among these changes. If the devs wanted to diversify the spell pool, they could have simply added more spells... Part of the charm of this game is that there are many spells and items to choose from. Instead, there are now many schools of magic that lack a powerful direct LoF attack option. How does that make any sense in-universe? And, from a game-design perspective, why does every single spell in the game need to be "quirky" and "different"? But of course, we could debate the bolt spell removal fiasco all day and night. Here's something that I'm sure even you can agree with: Among other terrible changes, the replacement of Lamp of Fire with Tremorstones was utterly ridiculous. Lamp of Fire was my favorite evocable in the entire game. If you got it by Lair or Elf, you could potentially save an otherwise unlucky character from the inevitable. The justification for removing it was, allegedly, to reduce item bloat in the game. Well, alright, I suppose that makes sen-- oh, wait, they left the other, crappier elemental evocables in the game... And they added Tremorstones in the same update. Absolutely nobody asked for Tremorstones. F*cking Tremorstones... Really? Is this the hill that people want to die on?

[@NinthSettler]

read github lul there's justification that complies with the dcss design philosophy for all those things you are complaining about also the very first thing in the description is that i meant tome instead of dcss

[@NinthSettler]

By the way tin of tremorstones isn't the replacement for lamp of fire, it's the replacement for stone of earth elementals/stone of tremors which was significantly weaker. Tin of tremorstones is among the most powerful experience evokables, and that is saying a lot considering how literally all of them are really strong and a substantial upgrade to any character that has trained evocations.

[@the_rocs_roost]

Shafts, attacks of opportunity, infinite ammo, and food removal are four things that come immediately to mind that make the game less fun than it once was for me. I'm sure I could come up with a list of things that would stretch from here to Timbuktu if I really wanted to complain. Instead, I just play the older versions. Between 0.16 to 0.18 is a Goldilocks zone for me where enjoyment and challenge balance to make a really fun and soulful experience. The streamlining we continue to see makes me question if the devs even play this game, especially if I consider the changes in the light of the design philosophy you mentioned in this video: the most fun experience should be the optimal experience. How does one accomplish this in a game like Crawl with so many possible character combos and pathways to victory, while also streamlining? If streamlining is the goal, which in large part it seems to be, why not eliminate all species but Minotaur and all backgrounds but Berserker, give them berserk status and Trog's Hand every turn, and have "o" and TAB be the only inputs? These are rhetorical questions designed to stimulate thought. I'm not necessarily looking for a reply.

[@NinthSettler]

I can't take your comment seriously if you liked food. No one liked crawl food.

[@the_rocs_roost]

I appreciate the video, BTW!

[@NinthSettler]

@@the_rocs_roost have you ever played rift wizard? I feel like it's the perfect roguelike that does everything I like about crawl better and mostly sheds the things I don't like about crawl

[@the_rocs_roost]

@@NinthSettler I haven't tried Rift Wizard, but I'll definitely check it out. Thanks.

[@the_rocs_roost]

@@NinthSettler lol, it's not that I liked it per se. It wasn't perfect, but it served to balance the game as a check against spell power and it made things like mummy and spriggan more interesting to play. I also think it was a better "timer" than the arbitrary Zot clock.

[@ExStepsister]

Traps are fun

[@NinthSettler]

interesting take

[@deafmute420_9]

The reason i kept comeing back to crawl after playing my first run 10 years ago (i think 0.15 or so) is because it was the hardest game i had ever played. Personally i miss food and hunger, for melee it was never too relevant but for spellcasters not having spell hunger, the play style is completely different. I miss the old school traps when you had a trap skill to level up. I miss getting hit with an elemental attack burns your scrolls or burst your potions. All these things made the game hard. You really had to think about every encounter and the risk reward of even trying to fight that mob. If you got an early ice beast you might have to lock it in a room or skip that floor. Dungeon floors, especially early should be extremely hard. You might have to skip a floor and come back later because you have no way to deal with thay mob or its not worth dealing with. Some of this new stuff im just like why!? The transformation talismans? How tf and i supposed to do ultra extended late game like tomb and zigs when now not only do i have to train so many schools as a spellcaster now i have to train 24 levels of transformation for lichform!? Wtf is that? At least with necromancy i had other relevant spells i could use. How am i supposed to find experience for that when im trying to get Firestorm castable? Unless there is a new way to deal with torment and mutation this change really bums me out. The only content im really interested in is late game 15 rune runs and scrubbing the depths of what this game has to offer like zigs. For me its like most of the dungeon is fun but zigs are like your test at the end of class.

[@NinthSettler]

Nothing personal but i can't take any comment that says "i miss food" seriously (and you can see it in these comments because i've said it before). Food was only ever a slight concern for species that couldn't eat chunks (spriggan and centaur), and even then centaur could just bowkite everything in the game so it never ran into food problems. Spriggan zerkers and mages did sometimes run into those problems but that's like, one species out of 27.

[@deafmute420_9]

@@NinthSettler yes I understand that you didn't like the food system but I know plenty of high level players that feel that same as I do. Food isn't really about eating it. It provides a clock against some degenerate play styles early game and late game. Prevents casters freedom casting fire storm and late game scrubbing infinite levels with low corpse drops like abyss and pan, also limits necromancy like raise dead and yred worshipers. Maintaining that resource for hell where there are no corpses, one of the reasons lich form is a must for ultra late game

[@MrDoctorDen]

Newer versions are trash. Game becomes wider, while loosing depth. Streamlining everything by devs is not fun for me. Rarely they hit the spot when while streamlining they remove some tedium, like with food removal. But usually they straight up cut the content.

[@markrhodes403]

While I'm often initially hurt by some of the content they remove I feel like the game has more depth now than when it had all the needless mechanics, like food and cursed items, that mostly served to waste your time because the most optimal strats were tedious. Some of the race changes seem to lack flavor, but then again the new races are some of the most interesting

[@NinthSettler]

As always, i disagree. I can't play 0.16, for example. It's just awful after playing trunk

[@Senior_autismo]

I dont mind the changed that much but opportunity attacks ruined the game for me.

[@NinthSettler]

They're not that bad on most characters. The characters I've noticed are affected the most by them are unfortunately some of my favorites, ogre mages. Mages as a whole are more hurt by these changes but more often than not it's gonna be ok if a monster gets to melee range since it's probably gonna be seriously hurt, and in case you get boned by the RNG you can always retreat just before it reaches you. As melee, you might want to wait more than usual to fight some scary stuff, since melee does not get to disengage now unless they use consumables, and as always, those are not infinite, or sometimes even available at the point in the game where attacks of opportunity could be a life threatening issue for such a character. And rangers suck imo