DDR

[@ijuhi]

I think you have to also consider 'why' Mind's Desire makes you shuffle before exiling the top card - to prevent you from using abilities / spells that manipulate the top card of your library (like Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, etc) so as to not allow you to just flip Emrakuls or other instant game enders. So as long as you're not doing that and your library is still 'sufficiently randomized' there's no harm in shortcutting the spell resolutions.

[@stevenoneil8563]

Remember kids, if you cast the Opt you flipped off the first MD before moving on to the resolution of the second, now you have to shuffle again!

[@Jesin00]

Only if you scried to the bottom! Otherwise it's just drawing a card.

[@jackattackhissnack]

The scy won't give you additional information about your next MD hit regardless of whether you scry top or bottom. However, I could potentially see a judge asking you to shuffle anyways since you did change the order of your library by drawing a card.

[@Jesin00]

@@jackattackhissnack Knowing it isn't the card you just put on the bottom *is* additional information. If you scry to the bottom, the shuffle matters.

[@alaraplatt8104]

​@@jackattackhissnacki think if you dont shuffle thats cheating

[@ZackBogucki]

​@@jackattackhissnack the shuffle would give the chance, however slim, that the card you just scried to the bottom ends up on top again for the next MD instance. So you gotta shuffle in that case.

[@elleeVee]

casting a minds desire for like 14 and resolving it as-intended can literally take upwards of 10 minutes with competitive REL shuffling, good rule here!

[@matthiasgraf8960]

"Use your brain", What a Quote, a lot of players need to hear that one.

[@bananajoe9951]

Not all people have the common sense to use this ability, To me, it's still meaningless.

[@Ekke-MarkusMuttika]

I had a similiar situation an FNM a while back. Time was running out so a player was trying to play fast. They played a tutor and then shuffled. They then played a saga that tutored a land to hand but he didn't want to do that, so without picking up their deck said "fail to find". This started a discussion whether the deck should be shuffled with the final conclusion that after the previous shuffle the deck was randomized and since no information had become available to either player about any of the cards positions in the deck then the deck was still randomized and a shuffle was not necessary.

[@Ekke-MarkusMuttika]

My favourite argument was the following: There are no official techniques how to shuffle, at the end of it you just have to present your opponent with a deck where both players have zero information about the positioning of cards in the deck. So if the deck already fulfills this condition then just tapping the deck can be considered as sufficient shuffling.

[@thomasyokum1070]

Great explanation. In D&D and 40k we call this line of thought "rules as intended"; what's this rule meant to accomplish? In D&D, technically you cannot make most ability checks without your DMs permission. The DM must call for the check to be made. However, as part of the cooperative storytelling experience, players will frequently suggest "Hey Bob, can I roll Arcana to try to understand what these arcane runes mean?" And DMs will frequently give them the go-ahead. It's a shortcut that makes the game flow better, and it works so long as the underlying rule is respected.

[@seanheath4492]

And now I'm having flashbacks to RAI vs RAW arguments. :P

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

The example you're giving is actually a bad practice imho. Players shouldn't think of their actions in terms of mechanics, it encourages button pushing gaming. They should think of their actions in term of the world; the rules are always a tool in the hands of the DM to decide what happens afterwards

[@seanheath4492]

@@dancingmathusalem5451 Rule 0 doesn't really apply in in MtG, at least not to the same degree as (it should) in D&D.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

@@seanheath4492 I'm just pointing out that the example in the original comment is poor role playing that undermines the fundamentals of the game, and is not "Just a quick shortcut that doesn't change anything" (as opposed to only shuffling once for mind's desire)

[@bengardner8639]

@@dancingmathusalem5451It undermines the game *as you want to play it*. There is nothing wrong with "button pushing" gaming if that is what your group enjoys playing, and nothing in the rules or the original spirit of the game contradicts that (it was adapted from wargaming rules!).

[@DankAudioStash24]

Amazing how Zenith for Courser shows 3 cards from your library to your opponent!

[@christianaguanno3834]

Hey. Great video! I wish you discussed that the active player, even when they discussed with their opponent the shortcut, should have the option to stop the shortcut, (IE, on the 2nd mind desire “flip” they reveal Brainstorm and with the 3 other storm triggers on the stack they should be able to stop the shortcut and cast brainstorm) then, they have to shuffle again then can continue to resolve the remaining copies of minds desire.

[@artemiskearney8019]

My take is that, as long as no cards from the library are seen during the resolution of whatever spell Mind's Desire casts, doing nothing to the library qualifies as a valid shuffle, since neither player can have information about the position or distribution of cards in that library. (This doesn't quite get around the opponent's opportunity to cut, though...)

[@andersnielsen3217]

I thought I knew the answer to this one. Turns out I still have a lot to learn from Judge Dave.😊

[@TheGrifcannon22]

Just saw this question on reddit yesterday. Glad Dave covered it.

[@byeguyssry]

I've been trying to find an edge case where this wouldn't work, but I think that if Nick ever wants to cast a spell (that probably affects Amy's deck) in between each Mind's Desire, he could simply stop Amy after X amount of cards are exiled, then Amy could shuffle for the Mind's Desire that resolves after his spell finished resolving.

[@zzztopspin]

Would it be feasible to add a clause in the general rules, outlining: "A wild draw is a situation when which all cards' positions in a player's library are unknown. A deck in this state is considered essentially shuffled."

[@ChibiRuah]

So late night thoughts on a possible rules change. Any time a card says “shuffle your deck” the rules can interrupts it as “make sure is properly randomized such that as far as either players know all order are equal are as likely and trigger affects trigger by shuffling” if not shuffle. This would cut to more a core part of “shuffle” being about insuring the next card is random to all players while cutting down shuffles. It does mean cards are not doing fully what they say, and this is a bit of what if/wishful thinking

[@ghvtrf]

the rulings on gatherer for courser state: If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell, playing a land, or activating an ability, you don't reveal the new top card until you finish doing so. This means that if you play a land from the top of your library, you can't look at the next one until you've handled any replacement effects that modify that land entering the battlefield, such as that of Vesuva. I was under the impression that during the resolution of a spell that manipulates the top card of your library, you can't look at or reveal the top card that isn't part of whatever you're resolving, except when drawing multiple. So when you cast brainstorm with courser out, it's draw, reveal, draw, reveal, draw, then put 2 back and reveal the new top card. You've drawn 3 cards, but that fourth card that was the new "top" card during resolution of brainstorm should not be revealed. In contrast, a scry 3 would keep the second and third card hidden, nor would the fourth card be revealed while you are looking at the 3 cards to put back. can you elaborate on this and why GST would reveal 3 cards during its resolution with a courser out?

[@joaovitorjoaovitor]

I never noticed how dumb the wording in Green Sun's Zenith is. Very funny with Courser indeed.

[@Sunshiner129]

It's written like that in case you do something like cast a copy or cast it with flashback so you can't shuffle it back into your library.

[@ikbenale]

Also in case another player somehow casts your Green Sun's Zenith: they shuffle after searching, you shuffle the Zenith into your library

[@theemathas]

​@@Sunshiner129That's not true. You shuffle anyway even if it's a copy or if it was cast with flashback. It's worded this way for when you control but don't own a green sun's zenith. 701.20c. If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, that library is shuffled even if none of those objects are in the zone they're expected to be in or an effect causes all of those objects to be moved to another zone or remain in their current zone. 701.20d. If an effect would cause a player to shuffle a set of objects into a library, that library is shuffled even if there are no objects in that set.

[@joaovitorjoaovitor]

@@ikbenale makes sense!

[@brianarsuaga5008]

With mind's desire specifically, I think a shortcut is fine, but not if someone interacted with the stack/deck between copies of the spell resolving. Then again, I've always thought the rules should be, "When no player has any knowledge of a library, and with the consent of all players, shuffling may be skipped." and "When no player has any knowledge of a library, and with the consent of all players, shuffling can be delayed until just before the order of that library matters." The first rule is kind of foundational- if there's no knowledge on the board about a library, for instance because it was somehow just shuffled, there's really no purpose to shuffling (but any player can force the issue). The second rule allows shortcutting both for things like mind's desire, but also simply conditions where one player is tutoring multiple times in succession without otherwise interacting with their deck. Fetchland+Cultivate for instance, which is common and not degenerate.

[@jeffe2267]

I was just thinking about this exact question -- I guess it's a common question with the recent unbanning! Awesome answer.

[@catwithorb]

I think another interesting corner case that is adjacent to Courser of Kruphix would be if player A had Leyline of Anticipation and Vizier of the Menagerie in play, then cast Mind's Desire for a Storm count of, say for example, 5. After player A shuffles and the first MD resolves, just like the Courser, both players gain a round of priority, so player A could look at the top card of their library and decide whether or not they wanted to cast it using Vizier and Leyline's combined static abilities, as well as if it was a particular of spell they wanted to cast off the second copy of MD, or instead choose to reshuffle as part of the second MD resolving. This process would then repeat for each copy of MD. Pretty close to the corner case you mentioned, but I think this would also be a particularly interesting case to talk about in the future given that shuffling would likely be mandatory due to the additional choice and card selection it would give player A. Thanks for the video!

[@ChibiRuah]

I got it wrong and thought it was 100% forcedbut I’m glad that “the shuffling does nothing” is a short cut that does exist. If if the rules say you should shuffle, I’m glad it seems judges are ok just saving people time

[@3rdtimesacharm84]

I was totally waiting for Psychogenic Probe to be mentioned!

[@perrypossum]

way back when I used to run dragonstorm in my ur-dragon deck (I'd storm off using omniscience) and sadly had to shuffle each resolution if I had a great henge or temur ascendancy in play cause I could draw the dragon I'd like to put into the battlefield lol

[@Atmapalazzo]

As someone who played value town in modern, I have a special disdain for courser having you perform every shuffle individually.

[@SpitefulAZ]

But judge Dave, I can't find "use your brain" in the CR or the MTR or even the JAR. 😂😅

[@JudgingFtW]

"The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text. Don’t just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases-read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text" [CR 608.2c] Okay, so I was paraphrasing a bit...

[@SpitefulAZ]

@@JudgingFtW ahh, yes, I am familiar with the rule "apply the rules of English" and I agree that "use your brain" is fairly accurate synopsis.

[@ben_clifford]

Honestly, the problem with Green Sun Zenith is its templating, not with the other things that interact weirdly with it. If they just left off the "then shuffle" from the first sentence, things would work the way you expect.

[@empxrubix9387]

I have an urza deck and always just (let the oponent) cut once when i can activate multiple times if my deck is already random

[@Pedun42]

If I crack a fetch and look just at the top card of my library and it's the land I want, can I reveal it and put it into play and skip having to shuffle? (assuming the rest of the deck is random with no known cards on the bottom)

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

Here's a question that happened to me in a commander game I control a Wall of Omens, an Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines and a Preston, the Vanisher. I cast a Ghostway, exiling all creatures until end of turn. At the end of turn, what happens exactly? I believe Elesh would double the WoO trigger, but does Preston also trigger? My gut would say he doesn't because he wasn't around to see the others come back.

[@JasonOshinko]

I'm not sure why you think some of the things would trigger and some wouldn't. They all enter the battlefield at the same time, and they all see each other enter. Both Preston and the Wall trigger, and Norn doubles them both.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

@@JasonOshinko My thinking was that since Preston needs to see the creature enter, he needs to already be on board, while Elesh Norn needs to see the ability go on the stack, which happens after they've all hit the board and would then be fine

[@420Pikachu]

This was a very interesting answer actually.

[@toddbussey5718]

If there were cards scryed on top or bottom, I'd want one shuffle after the first resolution, but the remainder aren't really necessary though because the top card is effectively random regardless of where it gets pulled from, however, the skipped shuffles would still trigger things that care about shuffling.

[@syrelian]

I'd also demand a shuffle if any other deck interaction occurred between MD flips, eg you flip an instant that does something to touch your deck and put that on the stack immediately, once you're done, unless it ended on "shuffle your deck", I'd be like "No no shuffle again bucko", if it did end on shuffle, shuffling twice back to back just looks goofy Remember, MD shuffles BEFORE you flip, not after, so its supposed to remove any scrys or other destiny manipulations(eg advent of second sun) before you flip, rather than mix up your deck afterward

[@orgazmo686971]

Wait - Courser would reveal the top card of the library that's no longer necessarily in the same order that it was prior to searching? Weird. So if someone is moving the cards around, is there a penalty, or is it just that they can choose what the top card is prior to shuffling?

[@naitsab_33]

searching (and maybe moving cards out of the library) doesnt allow you to reorder the rest of your library, even if it is shuffled afterwards. that is important in this case, although usually its not, same as with graveyard order, which technically also is not allowed to be reordered at will, but it doesnt matter, except for like 3 cards, so the usual rule is, that reordering is fine, as long as it can't influence the game.

[@Tsurael]

No. Per comp rules: "400.5. The order of objects in a library, in a graveyard, or on the stack can’t be changed except when effects or rules allow it. The same is true for objects arranged in face-down piles in other zones. Other objects in other zones can be arranged however their owners wish, although who controls those objects, whether they’re tapped or flipped, and what other objects are attached to them must remain clear to all players."

[@BadDrummerCarl]

The point was revealing the top card of your library is known information to your opponent, even though you will shuffle twice and the card on top will likely not be the same as revealed before shuffling Green Suns Zenith in, your opponents will get to see the revealed card and get information about your deck. If you played out the game and only showed green mana but revealed a Swords to Plowshares before GSZ shuffled in, it may change your opponents decisions in future turns

[@orgazmo686971]

That's what makes it weird though. Often people will grab their library in clumps, which means that the 'top card' is actually something that was 2/3 the way down, just because of how they handled their library while searching.@@naitsab_33

[@timdood3]

You are not allowed to reorder your library while searching it, so you absolutely do not get to choose which card gets revealed before the first shuffle. As for applying a penalty, this rule is similar to the "you're not allowed to change the order of your graveyard rule" which is by and large not enforced. In a specific case like this, though, where the order of a library remains relevant, a player should be expected to follow this rule. I think the best infraction for this instance would be a communication policy violation, as the player has obfuscated or misrepresented free information [the top card of the library] by revealing a card that, as far as the game is concerned, is NOT the top card of the library.

[@LyseanEmpire]

So many years of playing with GSZ and only now do l realize that l technically have to shuffle my library twice xD

[@Giga-lemesh]

Personally I would want to do at least a cut between each copy, it just feels more exciting

[@Patrick_Bard]

I get this principle for a large Storm counter or any other situation where a large number of shuffles is required. But I would think it's unfair to punish someone for slow play in the case of Green Sun Zenith just because they are following what the card says.

[@JudgingFtW]

If someone riffle shuffles a couple of times, then remembers that GSZ is supposed to get shuffled in too, then puts it in and finishes shuffling, that's one thing. But if someone riffle shuffles the full 5-8x, then presents for a cut, then puts the GSZ in their library and performs another full shuffle, it's hard for me to imagine a reason why someone would want to do something like that other than because they're just trying to waste time.

[@prosamis]

I'd just cut the deck once for each time Quick, technically shuffling, and eases any anxieties regarding stacking

[@laytonjr6601]

When the deck is already randomized, not doing anything is a valid shuffle and you can present it to your opponent for cutting

[@Nanook128]

The wording on green sun seems odd to me. Is there any good reason why the card shouldn't have just originally said shuffle green sun into your library? The initial shuffle after finding the creatures seems redundant.

[@laytonjr6601]

If you're casting Green Sun but don't own it (with stuff like Ragavan for exemple) it makes sure both players' library are shuffled as intended. If it only said "shuffle it back into your library" the Ragavan player in this exemple would still shuffle their library; but because they can't shuffle Green Sun into their library (they don't own it) it stays in exile. With the weird wording it's always shuffled into it's owner's library

[@Xhadp]

The repeated shuffling instances where it can make sense to not follow the exact the wording on the cards since shuffling can be a lengthy process. But it still irks me that not following exact wording is sometimes considered the norm for some actions, I don't know about MTG but rolling dice for something that calls for flipping a coin is a-okay in the Pokemon TCG.

[@seandun7083]

It's generally fine in mtg too as far as I'm aware. People do it all the time for mana crypt since people carry around dice more often than coins these days and it's just easier to do.

[@JudgingFtW]

It works that way in Magic, too. CR 706.1b Players may agree to use an alternate method for rolling a die, including a digital substitute, as long as the method used has the same number of equally likely outcomes as the die specified in the instruction. Still, getting at your larger point, Magic is a more complicated game than Pokemon, with a lot more different ways cards can interact with each other. One consequence of that it that shortcuts that seem obvious need to be handled with a bit more care, since there's an increased chance that the end result may differ in some subtle way that's only significant if your opponent is playing some obscure card you've never heard of.

[@lucasalexander3365]

Card Market Collab when!

[@bondeulv]

He was in one of their MagicCon Barcelona videos!

[@JudgingFtW]

Carl was also on one of my RWF videos from Barcelona, too!

[@ElvencloudYT]

Unless you have the almighty rare "Whenever x shuffles" text, what does it matter? (the only odd case I could find would be psychic surgery - and that's not a replacement effect) Great video.

[@irreleverent]

It matters if you flip an instant off the top that could modify the top card of your library as well. (Or as Dave said if anyone is able to see the top card of the library)

[@alaraplatt8104]

if you manipulate library order at all, yes shuffle

[@overweightactor]

On second thought, Mind's Desire is a silly card!

[@theemathas]

Why are your closed captions behaving weirdly lately?

[@Beocaleb]

it makes total sense but I prefer shuffling between each one. I usually shuffle sufficiently the first time and then just 1 or 2 mash+cut for speed. just feels better to me than doing the top X cards

[@dirty_mac]

You aren't randomizing your library sufficiently though

[@killemdeader1189]

That's wasting everyone's time, and frankly that approach is more likely to result in cheating than one longer shuffle and the shortcut. I would be calling a judge probably if my opp did that in a high REL event, and in a less competitive event I'd be pretty annoyed.

[@Figgy20000]

What if the opponent is trying to slow play and tries to force you to shuffle 5 times? Call a judge?

[@devanbrowne8706]

Nicely presented information, good video. You know you can move your webcam, right?

[@miserepoignee9594]

What's wrong with the camera position?

[@maximuscesar]

Reveal the top 6 cards for desire feels wrong because probabilities of revealing lands and stuff. So, at least I would ask my opponent to at least let me cut the deck before each reveal.

[@noahwarren8020]

After the first shuffle, your deck should be considered random order so the probability won’t be affected from revealing the top 5 all at once vs shuffling in between.

[@LucasTheDrgn]

Doing things between searching and shuffling, even though rules accurate, is always so unnerving to me. E.g., if you had your secret tech you don't want your opponent to know about on top of your library, its position at the top is information you know prior to making the decision of whether to get your courser of kruphix, and may influence the decision to lead to you searching for a different 3 or less mv creature instead. It feels like cheating, but it's all well within the rules, much like the strange things that happen when you cast panglacial wurm with a millikin or selvala.

[@milesgreb3537]

I don't think I've ever see a girl cast mind desire lol

[@alasanof]

Something of note: If you exile a brainstorm with Mind's Desire, then cast it before other copies resolve, I'm pretty sure you have to shuffle the library before resolving the next one

[@AndrewSmith-pn2qc]

Can you even do that. Cast a brainstorm before another copy of mind's desire resolves?

[@gavintomchick6271]

@@AndrewSmith-pn2qc Yes since each copy of Mind's Desire goes on the stack, you can resolve each copy individually and therefore respond to each copy individually.

[@AndrewSmith-pn2qc]

@gavintomchick6271 huh... in 20 years of playing mind's desire (on and off) I did not know that. And I even played the deck with brainstorm.

[@gavintomchick6271]

@AndrewSmith-pn2qc just know that after resolving brainstorm you need to shuffle again!

[@AndrewSmith-pn2qc]

@gavintomchick6271 yes of course.

[@Kyori058]

Once you involve sensei's divining top, you can't say I shuffle only once & try to rearrange the top 3 cards for the most desirable outcome.

[@Kuja66613666]

So, in the case of something like the Courser situation, in EDH, if my Storm count is 99+, can I just reveal my library, give them time to examine (if necessary), then get to casting?

[@alaraplatt8104]

i think at that point you should use the shortcut of shaking hands and saying gg

[@gisopolis77]

No because you might reveal the same card multiple times

[@Kuja66613666]

@@gisopolis77 that's not possible, each time a card is revealed, it's exiled