DDR

[@TheVladeha]

"like a sucker" 😭😭

[@Debatra.]

Missed the word "spell" in the phoenix's wording on my first read and was a little confused for a moment.

[@satanicpanicentertainment3061]

Always informative!

[@yargolocus4853]

weirdly enough, copy of a permanent spells counts as an additional permanent spell in the stack despite having no cards associated with them, but tokens on board are not "cards"

[@JasonOshinko]

That's not weird. A token on the battlefield is still a permanent despite having no associated card.

[@HafusAndLegacy]

@@JasonOshinko Your rebuttal has nothing to do with what they said. They said tokens are not cards

[@SwedeRacerDC]

​@@JasonOshinko It is pretty weird that a copy of a permanent spell magically generates a token. A copy of an instant or sorcery works just like the original, but when it resolves it ceases to be. I guess if it also created a token spell on the stack, it wouldn't be so weird because then the resolution would explain why it disappears. Rather than copying permanent spells, creating token copies of permanents seemed like a better way to do it like with Mirrorworks. If you're simply disagreeing that tokens on the board not being cards is part, then that's true. Tokens aren't cards, even though nowadays many of us use actual magic card versions of our tokens when we can. Though they have seemingly phased out of producing ones with actual magic card backings because that was confusing.

[@jerodast]

This is probably just me being old enough to remember Fork being the go-to copying spell, but I was thinking about Twincast in light of your consistent thoroughness in picking your examples to make points. It's possible someone might be thinking that this works for the trigger because Twincast itself is an instant card "causing" (but not actually) the damage. (This is inspired by the original wording for Fork - Fork itself becomes a copy of the spell.) Perhaps a more distinct example would be Dualcaster Mage or Mirror Sheen, which are clearly permanents, but the spell copies they create STILL count as instant or sorcery spells dealing damage.

[@jerodast]

(So just to be clear to everyone, neither Twincast nor the permanents I mentioned are what trigger the Phoenix. The copies they create do, like Judge Dave said.)

[@jerodast]

Also, I didn't realize until I was Scryfalling for examples for this suggestion, how the design of copying has completely shifted over to "copy a spell YOU CONTROL". I sort of get it because of the mana balance between needing to cast your own spell and then copy it is more stringent than "yeah just leave mana open while your opponent plays, and if they do something then you can steal it, and if they don't you can play some instant draw or token-making spell instead like a goddamn blue player always does, heck you can probably even counter the original spell you got a copy of"...okay I lost my train of thought, what was I saying?

[@Letterswords]

How would creeping chill interact with, for example, Pyromancer's swath, which refers to " an instant or sorcery source" dealing damage, without saying the word spell.

[@gatherer818]

that works fine. A sorcery is a sorcery, no matter where it is (except Adventures, anyway); the reason the interaction in the video doesn't work is that while it is a sorcery, it isn't a spell unless it's on the stack.

[@seanheath4492]

Not terribly relevant to this particular question, but something I was kinda wondering about: If you have Cliffhaven Vampire (or something else with the same ability) out in a 4-player game (e.g., Commander) and trigger its ability, does it count as three separate instances of an opponent losing life, or only one?

[@arcbinder]

Three opponents lost life at the same time. That's three instances of "whenever an opponent loses life" but only one of "whenever one or more opponents lose life"

[@seanheath4492]

@@arcbinder Sort of what I figured. Good to get an answer (and feed the algorithm).

[@dwpetrak]

Love how the devil in Mtg is most often in the specific wording.

[@Hodebrot]

nice! i got got by that one. 😁

[@oia]

Ok genuine question: How is a Sorcery’s ability *not* the sorcery dealing the damage but a Creature’s ability *is* the creature dealing the damage. I’m thinking the Niv Mizzet, Parun & Curiosity combo, for example. Thanks!

[@joshd592]

It is the sorcery dealing damage, the problem is that the sorcery isn't a "spell" at the time it's dealing damage.

[@jacobhanson8083]

It is actually a Sorcery dealing the damage, I think, but it's not a spell, and that's part of what Bloodfeather Phoenix is looking for. Cards are only spells when they themselves are on the stack, and Bloodfeather Phoenix is specifically looking for an instant or sorcery spell. Creeping Chill doesn't work here for the same reason you can't counterspell it when it gets milled, it's an ability causing a sorcery card in exile to deal damage, not a sorcery spell on the stack dealing damage.

[@jerodast]

Cards just naming the thing that is dealing damage is one of the funny things about damage. Combine this with the weirdness about being a [Type] vs a [Type] spell vs a [Type] card and you get some unintuitive stuff occasionally. Technically there are no game objects that even are Sorceries, there are only Sorcery spells and Sorcery cards. And normally cards don't do anything on their own, but sometimes they do if an effect says they do!

[@jerodast]

Theoretically you could have a permanent with an activated ability like "X, reveal a sorcery card in your hand: The revealed card deals X damage to target opponent, where X is its mana value." In this case the permanent's ability is activated and is doing the targeting, but the revealed card is the source of the damage. So gaining hexproof from the permanent's color (but not the sorcery's color) would fizzle it, while Circle of Protection: Sorcery's Color (but not the permanent's color) would protect you. So did the sorcery deal damage? Well, a sorcery CARD did...

[@Cman21921]

Also, you don't control Creeping Chill when using the triggered ability. So even if it didn't specify it had to be a spell, it still wouldn't work, right? Since Phoenix says a it has to be an instant or sorcery you control.

[@arcbinder]

You would still be the controller of the triggered ability, but it isn't a spell, so the phoenix doesn't care. If the phoenix instead said "Whenever an instant or sorcery spell you control or a triggered ability you control deals damage..." then it would trigger

[@Cman21921]

@arcbinder right. I was thinking "whenever an instant or sorcery you control..."

[@jerodast]

There's always a controller for any ability or spell on the stack (and any permanent of course). If an ability triggers from something without a controller, its owner becomes the ability's controller. This pretty much covers anything "coming from" one of the no-controller zones.

[@jerodast]

Mmm, looking at the CR, apparently emblems have controllers too :) Makes sense, it would be weird to define owners for object types that are never cards.

[@Cman21921]

@@jerodast right but it wouldn't be an instant or sorcery you control, it would be a triggered ability you control.

[@Flyboy245]

Like a sucker 😂