Deadly Turn - Base Leg to Final Approach

Arguably, the deadliest turn in aviation is the one from base leg to final approach. This brief video explains the common scenario that can lead to a stall/spin accident and provides some mitigation strategies to help avoid the mishap.

[@anthonyo.thector32]

Nice rule of thumb:"if more banking than 30 degrees is needed, then it's time to go around."

[@GeneBensonAviation]

That is a good rule-of-thumb. Let's also remember that even turns requiring less than 30 degrees of bank must be coordinated.

[@glennoc8585]

I had a commercial pilot tell me that he considered 25° in a banked approach as a safe limit. Very little rudder or no rudder on a nose down base to final would seem a safer procedure? I would if Microsoft Sim will put a Cessna into a spin on a final.

[@glennoc8585]

@@GeneBensonAviation Passenger jets yaw when banking from base to final but the air speed, flaps and banking stall envelope want allow an approach stall.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

@@glennoc8585 Not all passenger jets have complete software protection against an approach stall, but it is highly unlikely to occur for two reasons. First, the crews are trained to a much higher level than most pilots of small GA airplanes. The advanced simulators are great learning tools. Also, the large jets use "spoilerons" which automatically work to increase roll while requiring less aileron displacement at low airspeeds. This results in less adverse yaw because the spoilers are not located as far out on the wings as the ailerons so therefore have a shorter moment arm.

[@glennoc8585]

@@GeneBensonAviation Thanks Gene. It's keeping the yaw rate as little as possible to equalise sir flow.

[@philipmartin708]

On this topic I want to say this: Be very aware of a tailwind on base leg. If you have one, start your turn to final early. Also, a tailwind can give you the illusion of plenty of airspeed when it's only ground speed.

[@christoole1664]

VERY good point on the tailwind giving the illusion of speed. The only real speed that matters to the wing is airspeed. My CFI used to always say “you need to stay ahead of the airplane.” Good words.

[@OnceShy_TwiceBitten]

but wouldn't your airspeed indicator show it?

[@markmcgoveran6811]

@@OnceShy_TwiceBitten the airspeed indicator would show something. If the controls feel mushy that suggests its close to stall. There seem to be a lot of general aviation accidents and stall is involved in many of them. I think people fail to give it a hard climb coming out for the go around.

[@jackglossop4859]

Do you mean coming into a strong crosswind on landing? I always think I should just be flying faster. If you’re flying fast you’re flying safe right? I always want to turn base to final with a good dollop of airspeed to ensure I’m making that turn with a lot of air over the wings. I really don’t know though, I’m just a student pilot.

[@markmcgoveran6811]

@@jackglossop4859 flying plenty fast is a good thing for a student or anybody else that has a long runway in front of him. Plenty of air speed around the airport should be the law in your heart. Fly wide turns. If you have to go around climb out thoroughly. The airport is an abnormal environment for an airplane and a pilot will easily overestimate his turning ability and his stall speeds and everything else because he just doesn't do it enough unless he's a short take-off and landing specialist. In a ship it's called losing steerage way where you still float but your Rudder is meaningless. In an airplane you are trying to dominate a slippery flowing elastic fluid. Your altitude in your horse power are like cash in the bank but AirSpeed is money in your hand. If you're too close to the ground and you catch a down draft or something you need to have enough AirSpeed to dominate.

[@BradfordGuy]

Rule of thumb from my instructor when I was a student: "If you have *any* doubt, add power and go around!" Always remember the number 1 priority; Fly the aircraft! Everything else is secondary.

[@kirilmihaylov1934]

Good one

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[@opwave79]

I’m not a pilot, but I found this video very informative. It answers a lot of questions I have about rushing to land. Thank you!

[@alok0412]

Thanks for explaining this. Really helpful to know the importance of remaining coordinated during traffic pattern.

[@j.w.perkins6004]

I have always added airspeed if im in an overshoot correction. Dont be afraid to put the nose down a few more degrees and trade altitude for airspeed. You can add power if needed, but the airspeed is the critical facter here.

[@SparkyWaxAll]

Thanks

[@davidpartridge9459]

Thanks, great advice!

[@azslick]

@@davidpartridge9459 I can't remember just how many times my CFI barked in my ear: LOWER THE NOSE ADD POWER LOWER THE NOSE ADD POWER. I hated this at first but once I understood and practiced this maneuver it became clear. More than once it got me out of a low altitude and low speed issue.

[@Hk-uw8my]

Exactly,it's not an airliner or a glider but a flying iron. So dont be afraid of the airspeed. You ll need it.

[@paidgovernmentshill_6950]

Putting the nose down also unloads the wing and reduces AOA, making a stall less likely.

[@lanemorrison4145]

Good topic to teach on. I always spend much time on the base to final stall spin scenario as a flight instructor. Not just with private students but all.

[@jameswikstrom4174]

Very good advice for the general aviation pilot. Too many times pilots try to make corrections during a critical time in landing. This can lead to all of the problems that you describe. Safety is no accident. It is a firm commitment made by the pilot. Safe pilots live to fly another day!

[@igloo54]

Great visuals! A picture is worth a thousand words.

[@jamesa5720]

During my younger days, I flew a variety of sailplanes from fairly easy to fly 1-26's with a very low stall speed to more high performance fiberglass ships with higher stall speeds and flaps. My original instructor in 1976 taught me to avoid abrupt turns to base and to final using more of a long sweeping 180 degree approach from the downwind leg with much less bank and steady speeds, when at all possible. That advice stuck with me through more than 20 years of safe and wonderful flights.

[@michaelchesny656]

Thanks for this highly relevant advice.

[@sstine99]

The answer to this problem is even more simple......stop teaching students rectangular traffic patterns.... there is no reason for a squared off turn from base to final . It is ponderous why instructors insist on drawing out rectangular traffic patterns instead of a gradual turn into final.

[@michaelhegyan7464]

Thnx Gene, I am a student pilot, very helpful.

[@hamiltonv.pisanoetal6769]

Thank you, Mr. Benson. I feel more educated now.

[@oldglory1944]

Right on about this one capt. Also A down wind base about ALWAYS results in an overshoot and too steep bank. Our flight reviews now include defining the two uses for rudder & three uses for ailerons. Cheers CFI R bud Fuchs St. Louis

[@endwood]

The secret here is not to have the wing loaded up too much, don't raise the nose during the turn (that loads the wing) if you find you are a little low, complete the turn level the wings add power & then regain the profile wings level. It's the raising of the nose combined with a steep bank angle & crossed controls that's will bite yr ass!

[@donalddodson7365]

On December 27, 2021 just such an incident occurred approaching Gillespie Field (KSEE) in San Diego County. I wish the crew had seen your recommendations and followed them. Thank you Mr. Benson for your efforts to reduce the pilot / operator errors in aviation. Hope you have a productive 2022.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

Thanks for the kind words about my safety work. We do not yet know the cause of the Lear 35 tragedy in California, but it is possible that they fell victim to the scenario described in the video. It is also possible that they simply got too steep in the turn and experienced an accelerated stall. Personally, I think the underlying cause will be the pilots' decision making regarding IFR cancellation and switching runways in marginal weather conditions. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@happysawfish]

@@GeneBensonAviation : The Lear at night into Gillespie, circle to land, didn't he CFIT Rattlesnake Mountain? Visibility got worse really quick, worse than forecast as I recall.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

The Lear was not technically on a circle to land approach since he cancelled his IFR clearance, but the situation was basically the same. The preliminary report says they struck power lines initially. That final report should be coming out soon. In my opinion it is not a good idea to cancel the IFR unless the weather is well above VFR minimums and then never at night. I had a friend killed in a Beech King Air in Maine in 2000. He cancelled IFR, turned toward the airport and hit a mountain 100 feet below the summit. He was saving 6 minutes on the approach. Here is a link to the preliminary report on the NTSB website: data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104445/pdf

[@happysawfish]

@@GeneBensonAviation Thanks for the information Gene. Sorry to hear about your friend. Saving 6 minutes when you're behind is alot of temptation to us pilots to cut corners. Pressure from passengers, other pressures, worries, weather coming in, the possibilities are endless. And inventive.

[@GoodLifeInSpain]

Thanks Gene! Important and critical information.

[@matthewsellers82]

Excellent description. I was taught to SLIGHTLY overturn (for want of a better description) downwind to base to approx 110 degrees, this gives a better view of the runway, reduces the turn to final and in practice, the headwind component will correct the actual ground track to prevent encroaching on the threshold. My 2c

[@robertmazzetti11]

Simple solution.

[@HighMo]

This is a very logical solution or mitigation, as the video refers to. They don't really teach this, in my experience, but I'm going to consciously start doing this until the instructors tell me otherwise. I don't really understand the problem with flying a thousand feet farther on the downwind past the 90 degree angle point, other than extending the length in minutes, of your approach duration.

[@readmore3634]

@@HighMo My instructor wouldn't let me extend my downwind....with the throttle at idle you want to be close enough to glide in case your engine stalls. Also taught me short-field landings...normally I had to add power to taxi the first turn-out.

[@HighMo]

@@readmore3634 Understand your point completely, but on the downwind, abeam the numbers, I've pulled power to 1500 and have 1st notch of flaps in. (PA28) I'm never at idle at this point. I think the big issue is the time spent in the pattern, particularly at the very busy GA airport I fly out of. They don't like LONG final approaches with all the small and medium size jets in the pattern. To complicate things further, I switched instructors and he wants no more than 20 degree bank angles on any turn in the pattern. That rounds things out significantly. My only issue at this point is consistently judging the point of roundout.

[@readmore3634]

@@HighMo Thank you for the reply...Make no mistake, I'm a student pilot and haven't yet figured out what suits me best in the pattern....When I was a kid I built radio controlled model airplanes from wood. One of the many things I take from that is what flies and what struggles to fly. So even when I first started lessons, and my instructor, trying (from the first hour) to distract me from the moment, that no matter what....keep the airplane flying. And when you are low..... keep it flying with small inputs and fairly level wings. We practiced idle landings and short runway in case I ever had a problem. Oh....and never, ever bring it in on it's nose.

[@MarkSmith-js2pu]

40 years ago after I got my PPL, al. All had left to spend was for touch and goes at Downtown Airport in KC. I loved doing short approaches, I’ve forgotten a lot of what I learned then and haven’t flown since then. I wonder how safe I was during those days in PA 28’s. I had a great instructor so I like to think I was safe.

[@twobrotherskayaking4736]

GOOD VIDEO.... All through this video, once I realized what the problem was that Gene was describing (at the point he mentions using ‘left rudder’??? to comp for being too wide on cross to final), I’m thinking....30deg bank MAX (on any turn). Just give yourself plenty of room with down to cross to final....or ‘go around’....NEVER FORCE IT!!! FLY SAFE...

[@guysouthwell4497]

The check in the last turn is : "last turn, check speed, nose down, no skid, radio, final"

[@blusky121]

Great refresher, Gene. Thanks a bunch.

[@gregbowen617]

I’m not a pilot and never will be. Your description of what I see as an incredibly dangerous manoeuvre if not done properly is perfect. It’s actually really scary….

[@RR-kl6sl]

Great movie Mr. Benson thank you !!!

[@GeneBensonAviation]

Thank you!

[@MyTube4Utoo]

While a student pilot in 1979, I had set myself up "perfectly" for a cross-control stall. I was *determined* to land the airplane. However, instead of not being here to talk about it, it was like someone had suddenly slapped me in the head and I immediately realized what I was doing, righted the situation, requested a go-around, and learned a very valuable lesson! If things don't "feel" right, they probably aren't. Some 40 years later I still hear my first instructors words, *"Just fly the airplane."*

[@harveymanfrantinsingin7373]

It's important to those who do not know, we don't request a go-around, we declare / advise a go-around. First things first. Aviate, navigate, communicate. You should be halfway down the runway before you even let Tower know you're on-the-go. Cram. Climb. Clean. Call!

[@joemason9187]

Good advice for new and not so new pilots and most interesting thanks

[@samualwhittemore228]

Very good explanation! Thanks!

[@pilotzeye2258]

Well demonstrated! Thank you!

[@deanjones7940]

I fly RC scale models as I have always been fascinated with flying. It is common to hear someone say watch that corner of the field on landing as you can experience radio interference. After crashing some planes and witnessing many others it is a tip stall turning into wind in preparation for landing approach (not radio problens). As you turn into wind the model reaears up from the lift and as you are so focused on the landing you reduce throttle to the point of tip stall. I have seen it many times. (We have airline pilots fly at the clubs well sometimes).

[@mikeabc5355]

If you set your approach speed with trim tab, control your altitude with throttle and drop additional 10 degrees of flaps at every turn stall should never be an issue on approach. You should not make any elevator inputs on approach until final flair and touchdown. Just the way I been doing it since 1970. If you have anything going wrong don’t fight it go around it is safer.

[@eclipser2004]

Keep the speed up, don't make steep turns close to the ground especially at low power settings. Know what the plane is doing and always be flying the thing.

[@paulrichards2365]

Exactly what happened to me, my comments are above

[@jandejong2430]

Make a downwind to final turn. No need to make a rectangle.

[@harveymanfrantinsingin7373]

@@jandejong2430 not the best advice. If you're consistently having to oval 180 degrees, there is something wrong with your flows. There are four portions of a pattern for a reason. Develop a pattern profile and practice it. Sure, sometimes you have a funky crosswind or, whatever and we'll have to oval out your downwind, base, final but.. If it's happening every time there's a bigger problem

[@myricalmusic666]

16 year old student pilot from my neighbouring flight school was killed just 5 days ago due to this exact scenario. Extremely tragic and a huge wake-up call for all of us general aviators.

[@PeterPasieka]

The elephant in the room is that for some reason in North America people are being told by their instructions that the airplane has to be in touchdown configuration while on Base, and than to make a 90° turn to final. Why? Fly the airplane onto final and while on final put it into the landing configuration and land. Stop being at touchdown speed before turning Final, and you'll not die while making this "most dangerous turn".

[@thawekpl]

My rules on base to final turn: 1. Keep 1,2 Vref speed (if I should have 60 over the threshold, i keep 70+ on turn to final) 2. All my turns in traffic pattern is done by push the yoke (accelerate by decreasing pitch) - turn - then continue climb on Vy. On base to final i try to keep speed and altitude - the only way of doing that is to ADD THRUST. 3. All turns are 30 degree turns, except base to final turn - this one i limit myself to 20 degree turn. 4. If overshoot happens, keep 20 degree roll, and see if runway centerline is coming. If you are not able to catch it (too close runway, too strong crosswind, too low to terrain) - it's time to go around. Basically keep yourself in safe spot over flight envelope and you will be fine, always, even if sudden wind gust will apply.

[@shreedhar333]

Ordinary Matt I like the 20DEG self limit you set on your base to final turns. I’ll keep this in mind on my next flight. I have read up plenty enough on how deadly stalling on these can become esp. if uncoordinated but admit to having loaded the wings more than typically to “salvage” an overshoot a couple of times. Still maintaining some margin from the stall speed in a banked turn but definitely not a good practice to push the airplane to its limits this close to the ground. Setting a go-no threshold like this takes the realtime evaluation aspect of it out of the decision-making process.

[@davechapman490]

@@shreedhar333 Yes, far too many times, a pilot will go too long trying to salvage a bad approach when they should have bailed earlier. Setting these kind of hard limits and ADHERING to them, can save many a life and this should be drilled into novice pilots!! I also like the 20deg on B to F, it's a safe limit.

[@mannyg9059]

General question, where there many stall spins during WWII pilot training? Anyone?

[@_Sweet_Pete]

thank you! huge help understanding this concept

[@awesomeBLT]

My Cirrus has ESP so if it see's me make an unsafe turn to final it automatically corrects for it and gives feedback.

[@thepb7913]

I just tried to do a stall/spin in my Legacy simulator, at 4000' AGL so that I had room to attempt a spin recovery. In landing configuration (gear down, full flaps, 105 kts) it recovers in a very docile manner from overshooting base to final, overcorrecting, and then stalling with full cross controls. The nose goes down, wing does not drop. I won't be trying it in the real aircraft, though. The good news is that flying the aircraft anywhere close to right is very, very far from stall/spin. So, airspeed up, dirty side down.

[@Ryzanify44]

Very informative!

[@petethecatable]

Ok here is a mitigation strategy that will likely generate some controversy: I think folks should practice a nose down slip when you see that you are over standing final. And I think this should be practiced. In a left pattern, that means right rudder, nose down and slipping until you gain proper alignment. If you have been maintaining proper altitudes in your approach to final, this "quick slip" gets you down and aligned very quickly--at least in the slow airplanes I have flown. If you keep the nose down, the plane will quickly gain forward control when you get aligned and center the ball. If after a quick slip you are still too high you need to go around. I am not sure why this is not taught. I would be interested in feedback. I fly Citabria, Cub, Champ and maybe these airplanes lend themselves to this process, but I am reminded of an airliner that made an emergency engine out landing at a closed field in Canada and used the slip to align and lose altitude when it had no other option. I have often felt that teaching slipping and spins should be part of the basic PPL curriculum.

[@vet6822]

I had this bad habit during instruction until my instructor took me to 5000 and demonstrated to me what could happen.

[@drabberfrog]

What happened?

[@babatundefafiyebi9669]

@@drabberfrog --The Plane probably stalled out and went into a bad spin and vet68 got a HUGE scare and a HUGE wake up call..

[@drabberfrog]

@@babatundefafiyebi9669 Tru dat

[@donepearce]

At London Heathrow airport, nothing flies an actual base leg. Aircraft turn onto final from a heading thirty degrees off. Ninety degree turns while low and slow are just a bad idea. There is a youtube video from Oshkosh of a plane sideslipping into the ground from a tight turn onto a far too short final. Most comments suggest it is due to turbulence from a preceding plane, but it is as clear as day that the wing became totally stalled under the increased load.

[@goodtalker]

I learned to fly at non-controlled airport. This was almost 40 years ago. I always notified everyone that I was heading straight out from the runway until I was at least 2500 above ground level. And even then, turns were always as shallow as I could make them.

[@yves3560]

This deadly turn happens more than one would expect. Trying to salvage a bad approach is indeed many times the reason.

[@hollyfoxThe]

Precisely. If it is not good, level off, give it some power so you can retract flaps and if need be inform ATC you need re-sequencing if you don't feel comfortable with a go-around and exit the pattern. The extra time may give you the moments you need to recover from the adrenaline dump. If you are following the rules on fuel load, you should be fine.

[@charliejones3118]

Nobody ever mentioned (ACCELERATED STALL) that should be taught but it is never talked about anymore 😢

[@franksgattolin8904]

…. visual cues and understanding your position relative to the wind and runway are essential to success. Think I’ll write up the process for this fellow’s website. Taught 7,000-

[@franksgattolin8904]

….hours and never had a student become a law dart due to screwing up that dangerous turn. Sorry about the segmentations. Fat fingered I guess. Or gremlins.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

Thanks for the comments. I am always interested in having a guest article for our VectorsForSafety.com publication. Feel free to contact me directly via email at [e-mail].

[@billmorris2613]

This is exactly why I never use 1.3 X my stall speed, VSO, in the traffic pattern of small non towered airports. That calls for 75 MPH. I usually use between 100 & 110 MPH and keep the nose down once I leave the down wind. I don’t start slowing down until about 1/2 of a mile out from the landing runway. I use ground effect if I want to land long. At airports like MSY I request from ATC to stay high to enter a final. I’m at the top of the yellow ark which is about 165 MPH. This way I can mix well with the passenger airline and freight jets. I carry 2400 to 2500 RPMS in my decent into final until I reach the approach lights. Then level off and pull most of the power back and it quickly slows down to around 100 MPH. I can put in the flaps once below max flap speed. I can then land and make the first turn off into the GA ramp. No chance of stalling with this type of VFR approach or shock cooling the engine.

[@hb6986]

The important point that is missed here is that even if the ball is exactly in the middle at the point of stall the wing may drop due to the use of flap or power. Flap promotes TIP STALL.Power promotes TIP STALL. Anything that causes the tip to stall before the root can cause wing drop. It is the wing drop that causes surprise and startle and if not corrected immeadiately it will lead to very large bank angle and pitch down. Most low hours pilots now faced with a windscreen full of scenery will in instinctively pull back and their fate is sealed and they hit the ground vertically nose first. Carrying an extra 5 to 10 knots on the base to final turn can help. Listening out and looking out prevents circuit surprises. You only have to avoid traffic you didn't see! 99% of pilots need to improve their LOOKOUT WORK CYCLE. Having a landing light and not using it in the circuit is poor CRM and shows lack of common sense. SEE & BE SEEN. THE HARRY BROWN PROJECT

[@guitarhillbilly1482]

Proper use of Rudder will prevent rotation into a spin.

[@outwiththem]

Harry Brown Right. Even coordinated turn, if you pull up in panic due overshooting, it will drop the inside wing. And if adding power with not enough rudder in a say 45 degree turn at say 400 agl. You will drop the wing further too. Lots of BS here from guys that dont do full steep turn stalls or steep turn go arounds..

[@philipmartin708]

You said "Flap promotes tip stall." That makes no sense because when you lower the flaps you also have to lower the nose, i.e. reduce your Angle of Attack, to avoid ballooning, and also slowing down. Also, just to see if you know what you're talking about, what's the most likely scenario of a tip stall occurring?

[@chipcity3016]

@hh6986 The important point that you missed is only pilot induced aft elevator input can cause a stall. Things such as speed, slips, skids, tight turns, wing loading, ALL have ZERO affect on when a wing stalls which can only happen at a given critical angle of attack (AOA). If you are a pilot and do not understand your plane's stall stick position is the same every time then you are missing a critical factor in your aviation. I rarely look at my airspeed indicator, but I always KNOW at all times how far my stick is from my belly button! When landing I use the stick to control my airspeed and engine power to control height. A plane can stall at any airspeed. Just pull back and see.

[@paulrichards2365]

This is exactly what happened to me. I had a psychotic instructor who gave me NO help. I overshot on Base to Final at about 500 feet and turned back 180 descending turn and 90 sharp turn left for a landing. I think the only thing that saved me was due to my inexperience, I didn't use the rudder, only ailerons and less than 30 degrees bank. The instructor offered NO help during this landing. I REALLY believe he was suicidal and reported him to CASA. I had a meeting with management and found out that later he had been PROMOTED.

[@rinzler9775]

Which flight school at Bankstown ? That's where I learnt in the early 90's but their are many different schools there. I studied at the Chieftan flying school and they were great.

[@horacesawyer2487]

@@paulrichards2365 : Right mate. Sue the flight school How many have died? None, you say? There goes your legal case. If you had really messed up your CFI would have stepped in. Otherwise, a student ends up just paying for someone to fly you around.

[@paulrichards2365]

@@horacesawyer2487 It was SOAR Flight School Bankstown. It was run into the ground by Neel Khokhanihas and since been shut down for MANY reasons.

[@44hawk28]

Don't overfly the capabilities of the aircraft, and always remember that the aircraft is almost always more capable than you are!

[@horacesawyer2487]

"Retreating wing" - good terminology. Immediately get a visual.

[@motorTranz]

Excellent. Thank you.

[@franksgattolin8904]

Good presentation. One big problem is that most CFIA’s do not teach the traffic pattern as a flexible, precision, maneuver. One big factor in the base to final turn is when to begin. For most pilots it’s a guess. That guess can lead the poor pilot into a messy situation that may end up being non-survivable. Use of

[@Lawson8330]

Thanks Gene!

[@johnpro2847]

I saw an aircraft investigation show where a 4 engine jet plane stalled on the final turn ..albeit excessively steep ..

[@garypugh1153]

I'm 72 and rented 150's and 152's since '75.....i always watched bank, airspeed and ball on turn coordinater.. don't get too low turning final, i always come slightly high, then can come down with flaps or forward slip near the runway. Better safe than sorry.. now i have a boat...🇺🇸

[@philipmartin708]

I agree with your stay high approach so you never have to rely on your engine to get you there. Like you said, flaps or forward slip at the end if you need it. There would be many alive today if they'd stayed at or above their glide angle, (adjusted for wind of course).

[@nobleroofinggeneralcontrac7961]

Perfectly explained ty

[@kennethiman2691]

Excellent!

[@liamtagg3428]

Great video!

[@davidpartridge9459]

Liam Tagg is that an RAAF Orion with a very smart looking 150 Aerobat on your profile?

[@christoole1664]

I always say if go around needed, everything goes to the firewall (yoke, throttle, carb heat, mixture). That’s exaggerating it a little but I think you get the idea. Then bleed off flaps when solid positive rate of climb is established. Also, be ready to rapidly adjust elevator trim based on how you had it set during final approach. If rusty, or in doubt, see your nearest CFI. There’s always room to learn more.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

Agreed!

[@Mikinct]

Great video, much appreciated. Question; So, on base to final. It the pilot is making a safe 20-30 degree left bank with slight left rudder to keep it coordinated then it’s in & safe? Does the pilot need to provide “full left rudder” to create a deadly stall & spin or just enough left rudder to push the ball passed the middle more towards the right side?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

If the bank angle does not exceed 30 degrees, the ball is in the center, and the airspeed is normal for the approach, everything should be fine. Full rudder is not needed for the stall spin, but the more the ball moves out of the brackets the more danger is presented.

[@Mikinct]

@@GeneBensonAviation thanks 4 your reply!

[@linsioux217]

Think this may be a factor in the Lear jet crash in El Cajon, Dec. 27, 2021.

[@howardjohnson2138]

Golly Gee! I've flown for a coupla days and don't remember ever ''encountered'' the ''deadly'' base to final turn. But if what you have to say saves some pilots, good on ya

[@EamonnSeoigh]

In a turn, at lower airspeeds, it's always a better idea to keep the ball in the middle and fly the plane to the correct track with proper airspeed for the attitude and no more than 30* of bank angle. For sure, get a CFI to put the plane into a descending low airspeed turn and witness the opposite effect the ailerons create as the outside aileron effectively increases the AoA of the wing on the outside of the turn. Scary shit close to the ground. See it at altitude. Once you understand what it's going to do, you'll be watching your airspeed more closely.

[@muhammadsteinberg]

Just curious if there’s a great disparity of these type of incidents between high and low wing? I believe you might see more racetrack patterns and overshoots with high wing.

[@tdkeyes1]

Just had this conversation with my CFI, square vs oblong patterns. He is of the opinion that oblong works for fast low wing aircraft. He feels that a high winged plane will block the view of the runway if it's in a continuous bank. A squared pattern enables the high wing aircraft to fly level for a longer period on each leg, giving the pilot a better idea of his position and also a better view of traffic.

[@muhammadsteinberg]

@tdkeyes1 I would agree with that if you have the luxury of that. As the previous owner of a 172, I encountered numerous situations where I had parallel traffic, or while in the pattern, I was assigned another runway while on downwind. The 3rd issue I ran into frequently was to tighten my pattern in heavy traffic. Each one of the circumstances eliminated the luxury of flying a squared off pattern. While I adapted to whatever was thrown at me, I very much preferred a squared off pattern with that particular plane (172).

[@tdkeyes1]

@@muhammadsteinberg I still have much to learn. One thing that he is drilling in my head is pattern airspeed.

[@orangebetsy]

my lord, if i went in for flying a plane, i'd make damn sure i aced my book studies. and what happens with added real life variables? seems like you gotta know these relationships like the back of your hand or you're dead.

[@stannoll6248]

Excellent.

[@MrNopehaha]

Thanks for this! 30º it is, if more, than go around!

[@25556744]

If it to on

[@rodolfoayalajr.8589]

Thank for education. Friend.

[@jerrypinner1671]

My instructor had many wise words- " if there's any doubt there's no doubt- go around "

[@richardweil8813]

And related to this is what the AOPA online course calls "The Impossible Turn." This occurs when people experiencing a partial/full engine failure shortly after takeoff try to do a 180 back to the field and spin out (or at least run out of altitude). I think what this whole topic comes down to is what Mark said below, it is all cerebral. When under sudden pressure understanding why a sloppy turn at low altitude can kill you, or why it is better to land dead stick more-or-less straight ahead, should prevent making these errors. Visualizing ahead of time a good approach and what to do in an emergency can make all the difference. In the glider I fly my learned habit at the end of the checklist is to run through what to do if there is a low altitude rope break or towplane engine failure. I've had these and thanks to good training they were quite manageable. (In a glider you can make a low altitude 180 and we practice that; on the other hand, when they spin, they really spin. With a moment's inattention to the pattern's wind gradient we came darn close to losing a club member.)

[@GeneBensonAviation]

This is not the same as the "Impossible Turn." That scenario involves an attempt to return to the departure runway following a loss of engine power soon after takeoff. This video describes the dangers of an uncoordinated turn in the traffic pattern from downwind leg to base leg.

[@jimmcnulty1401]

Bulldog

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

A 180 ?? A 180 ?? LOL.

[@FleetTech97]

So just try to keep coordinated flight at all time and really watch your speed on the final turn?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

That about sums it up.

[@panoskaralakis7691]

Hello Gene and to all KZbinrs,. Greetings from a beginner aviation enthusiast but eager learner. I can not find a good explenation in the web for why @2:55 the AOA decresase/incresases on the wings when rolling. Is it maybe too obvious? Can somone give an explanation, so I can complete my understanding of the video?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

The AOA always changes during any roll. The AOA is the angle between the chord line of the wing and the relative wind. A descending or ascending wing slightly changes the direction of the relative wind and therefore increases or decreases the AOA depending whether the wing is ascending or descending.

[@panoskaralakis7691]

​@@GeneBensonAviation Thank you! So it is a small and momentary effect upon attitude change. This was my best guess, after watching an "AlphaTrainer" Video. ( tinyurl.com/yyfzkpmb )

[@MikeBrown-ex9nh]

I'm not sure why they are over shooting the turn onto final. Wasn't their downwind long enough for an adequate base to final to allow time to line up with the runway?

[@adamw.8579]

First common problem: be hurry. Death chain: Short final, not enough time to stabilize. "Get there itis" on landing for any cost... crash. Some good CFI said: Go Around is first option ever, landing is second if all parameters are good. If PIC have any doubt go around and clear problems.

[@user-bx7nw1ve6y]

Two common reasons are crosswinds and fatigue affecting judgement.

[@youhavethisnametoo]

i think they call this cross-control stall. As a CFI, my student almost killed us when we came to Tahoe.

[@anthonyo.thector32]

A CFI's job can be so risky.

[@cooperparts]

A must go stunt flying and it will change the way you fly also stops the fear of stalls and spins

[@stevensal13]

Thank you

[@brandonsg1367]

I don’t understand why if the pilot applies RIGHT aileron, that the plane would continue rolling to the left

[@gcvincent3989]

After the student had a few hours I always covered the airspeed indicator in the pattern, never allowed my students to bank more than thirty degrees in the pattern I limited that to twenty on base to final. I also taught them to never load up the wing on base to final turn and never ever cross control. If they did it was out to the practice area for a hour of spins. Amazing how they never cross controlled again on me.

[@GeneBensonAviation]

I love it! Great job!

[@lw216316]

I see this happen at our rc field, especially if there is much wind. A high angle turn, low power, nose up, low altitude - and in less than a second the pilot is walking out to pick up the pieces. Full scale, in cockpit pilots don't walk away from this crash. Rc pilots walk away - " a way" out into the field and pick up the pieces !

[@24100mw]

TRIM, TRIM, TRIM, keep the airplane in trim then adjust rate of descent with power, done correctly it is almost a hands off maneuver.

[@waqarsyed6641]

Awesome thank you

[@elmoreglidingclub3030]

Fly gliders and all this will become clear. What prevents this accident is a well-banked turn-not a shallow-banked turn. The wing turns the airplane, not the rudder. Shallow banking invites pilots to add more bottom rudder in order to bring the nose around to line up with the runway. That, along with trying to hold the nose up, results in the stall-spin. If you need more turn to get lined up, bank more! You’ll come around quicker and not risk stalling. Be sure to keep the ball centered and don’t load up the weight by holding the yoke back. The notion of banking more than 30° is bad and requires a go-around is just masking deeper problems and misunderstandings. Learn to turn using the wing (which actually turns the plane) while keeping coordinated (the job of the rudder). When I teach spins, the first spin I demonstrate is not the typical pull up into a stall and kick in rudder. Rather, I have the student pretend he is on base-using some perpendicular road off in the distance, and allow no more than a 15° or similar shallow (you know, “safe”) bank to get lined up. Using the rudder, too much rudder, we always spin. It demonstrates the bank angle is not the culprit-more bank angle is what is needed! We do it again with no restriction on bank angle and the lesson is complete.

[@mtkoslowski]

Also defined as an *incipient spin* .

[@adamschmidt613]

At 1:20 Gene states that left rudder pressure is being applied and the yoke is to the right, and then proceeds to call this a skid. Since the controls are crossed, isn't this a slip?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

The controls are crossed in both a skid and in a slip. In our example, the the turn coordinator shows a turn to the left with the ball opposite the direction of the turn, to the right. Whenever the ball is out of center opposite the direction of turn, the airplane is in a skid. If the ball is out of center in the direction of the turn, that is a slip.

[@bcmc5919]

good job

[@sidhuprakash1949]

small banking angle is preferred for large aircraft which is often not possible because of small distance flight and going around maneuver is also the best strategy if things are not favorable for landing (most airlines companies are on saving gas, conducting frequency of trips (sometimes engines never put off in Nepal), cutting operational costs is not wishing their pilots do the go-around maneuver often. See pilot's rewards)

[@donepearce]

Don't try for a short final. That puts manoeuvring speed too low, and even if you don't screw up the controls as illustrated here, the extra wing load of a steep bank could simply stall the entire wing. Don't try to make a turn below about 40-45% above stall speed.

[@sandsrealestatewest663]

Thanks Gene. You're the man bro!

[@geraldscott4302]

If you overshoot the runway turning from base to final, apply throttle, straighten out, reenter the traffic pattern, and try again.

[@thebluegreengoose]

I have a Cherokee 140. My A&P said if he lost an engine on takeoff, he'd do a 180 at Only 509 feet. I said no 1000. He shook visibly. I've owned this aircraft since 1989. Took it up. Simulated engine out, counted to 10. Then executed 180. I list about 350 feet, with stalk light blinking entire time. When learning Radio Control, we were taught NEVER do a 180 if loosing an engine on takeoff. The reactions I learned saved my 140 (from RC) when botching a landing on a narrow runway. Full power saved the day; optical illusion stalled it on, bounce up to hight of open hangers.

[@robertjones1543]

Is tjis less likely to happen in a plane with the wing on top of the cabin?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

No. Both high and low wing airplanes are equally at risk.

[@robertjones1543]

@@GeneBensonAviation thank you Gene.so i take it.its much safer to own a plane with an abundance of power as opposed to these older cessnas. Are they that top out at 105mph that way you can keep a higher rate of speed going through turns or is that thinking totally false?

[@GeneBensonAviation]

Power is really not the issue. The same thing can happen in a turbine powered airplane. it is all about keeping coordinated as indicated by the ball being in the center and controlling angle of attack.

[@robertjones1543]

@@GeneBensonAviation i trust your knowledge as your a pilot and im not .apparently when it comes to flying there are many things that go against a humans natural instincts like pulling back on the stick.whats confusing to me about this question is it a stall is created by letting the plane go below its stall speed i would have thought the ability to increase speed through turns would be quite helpful?

[@ayushgarg6069]

I didn't get that why descending wing will have high aoa ?? Can sm1 explain ??

[@GeneBensonAviation]

The wing is going down therefore the relative wind is coming up. If that was the only motion, it would result in a 90 degree AOA. Since it is not the only motion, it simply increases the existing AOA.

[@ayushgarg6069]

@@GeneBensonAviation thanks alot sir now I got it... I did this mistake in my second solo flight recently but now I will never ever make this mistake. All thanks to you !!😊

[@9014jayvictor]

suscribed today thank you

[@stevemiller2210]

Keep the nose down stay coordinated turn early enough so that you don’t have to turn back to the runway

[@arthurmontana8791]

At 1:25 the instructor states this: The yoke is turned to the right." Yet, the photo at that moment shows the airplane banking left. How can an airplane bank to the left if the yoke is turned to the right?

[@Shadowaspen]

that is in all turns the case... in short moments ...when you counteract ..you figure the bank is to much so you turn the yoke slightly the other side ...not to much but a little bit here and there and in this scenario not uncommon... you sit in the plane the runway way to much left of you windscreen center ... you bank in to fix it and you get uncompfortable cause the bank gets to steep so you counter act to slowely shallow it and add instead more rudder ...and bang you flew your last pattern ever...

[@outwiththem]

Even coordinated turn, if you pull up in panic due overshooting, it will drop the inside wing. And if adding power with not enough top right rudder in a say 45 degree turn at say 400 agl. What will happen? You will drop the wing further too. Lots of BS here from guys that dont do full steep turn stalls or steep turn go arounds..

[@ChristofferKeizer]

Great video, sir.

[@1wbandit]

I TRAINED A LOT ON SLIPS, SHORT FIELD LANDINGS. DOWN YOKE, LEFT RUDDER, RIGHT AILRON AND 30% FLAPS. JUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE TIME TO RE-ADUST. THIS IS A CONTROLLED FALL....

[@davidsuchite9757]

I don't like using the rudder, even as a beginner I just would never apply left rudder and right aileron, I mean I do it when I do slips to landing but from the beginning I've been leary of yaw Espacally at slow speeds. My instructor has been trying to get me to use the rudder to flow into my turns but idk I just don't like it.

[@MrAlwaysBlue]

Proper use of the rudder keeps the aircraft coordinated and safer. You may be able to get away without rudder for a left turn, but right turns will certainly require it. Of course it is mandatory to control direction on take off and final approach

[@atari7001]

I believe there is a demonstration on youtube showing the difference between a proper turn and an uncoordinated turn. The uncoordinated turn causes you to lose much more altitude. It can be surprising how much you can drop. May want to know how to coordinate in case you get in a pinch and find that you can't spare any altitude

[@dennisvails366]

Step on the ball