Dealing With Doubts? ... This Could Change Everything

Austin Fife came to realize that the anti-mormon community was not being honest and wrote "The Light And Truth Letter" in response.
Our Links
Website: thoughtfulfaith...
Instagram: / thoughtful.faith
TikTok: / thoughtful.faith
Podcast: www.buzzsprout...
DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this video are entirely the opinion of the creator and do not necessarily reflect any officially endorsed positions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or channel sponsors.

[@LdsTiktokPreservation]

My thanks to anti-material like CES Letter and Mormon Stories for inspiring something as glorious as the “Light and Truth Letter.” Also thanks to John Dehlin for saying that the “CES Letter is the most correct thing on the internet,” so that way we now have more big red flags about that guy and his “Mormon stories”, since most of the CES Letter has been proven to be based on lies and deceptions. Thanks guys :)

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Oh funny I haven't heard that yet from John. Hilarious 😆

[@LdsTiktokPreservation]

@@LightandTruthLetter See Dehlin’s quote posted on the front page of the CES Letter website ;)

[@LightandTruthLetter]

@@LdsTiktokPreservation Oh funny. I went to the CES Letter dozens of times this year but always skipped the hokey testimonials. Amazing

[@-tikla]

I've had this same thought! I think critics in the church have accidentally produced the most stalwart, informed, deeply converted generation of saints we have had in a long time 🔥

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

I have informed both the CES Letter and John Dehlin on the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretation. I gave a basic rundown on how Paul Gregersen demonstrates on his pro Book of Abraham videos that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong. Both the CES Letter and John Dehlin ignored my comments.

[@ianvalentine278]

I read the whole thing in one night. I thought it was great.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Amazing! How long, like 3 hours?

[@ianvalentine278]

@@LightandTruthLetter I started at 10pm, went to sleep at 2am. Woke up at 6am, finished at 7am, went on a walk pondering it all and finished it off with conference.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

​@@ianvalentine278🤯 Hopefully you still got something out of conference!

[@SCPN333]

1:06:49 I can testify that being religious is better for our mental health, I spent years away from the church, and I tried to end my life twice. I've been better mentally since I've been back. Still have depression although my mood swings have been tamed and my depression lightened. I have questions about the church, but right now, this church is the best one, and most Christ like and biblical, according to a Catholic priest I met.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Glad to have you!! Mental health is complicated but in a macro scale it's very clear that religion is very helpful

[@SCPN333]

@LightandTruthLetter The other month, I also realized that during the time I was trying to end my life, Jeffrey R Holland gave the talk, "Fear Not, Believe Only!" I unfortunately was inactive when he gave this talk, I am glad I get to hear it today and tomorrow and forever. Also I just got a job today so soon I'll be able to buy your letter.

[@sterlingsainsbury83]

Thank you for writing this book. It was a work of love and it confirmed the logic and love surrounding the ongoing process of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I appreciate the many months of laborious study and pondering that made this accomplishment a reality. Thank you, thank you.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Thank you for reading! Months of writing but years of study 🫡 And only getting started

[@THE_KlNG]

This thumbnail is so beautiful! The Fifes are amazing. They are an example of people shinning on the hill!

[@LightandTruthLetter]

This beautiful thumbnail had a lot of help from Tikla for sure 😁

[@THE_KlNG]

​@@LightandTruthLetter as a YSA college student, you guys inspire me!

[@jessicarandall4016]

Your wife is so freaking amazing. I listen to her on ward. And that conversation with her, and this video helped me explain to my teen that she shouldn't just give up on church without having something she feels is better

[@LightandTruthLetter]

@@jessicarandall4016 😁👏

[@-tikla]

🥹 that's amazing! The world needs mom's like you ❤️

[@ianvalentine278]

16:38 this is exactly what it did for me. During a faith crisis this helped for me to steady myself and put away some of the voices so I could hear the Spirit better.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Love it 💪

[@awfulwaffle1341]

Terryl Givens was once told by someone that they couldn’t imagine paying 10 percent of their income for anything. He responded that he couldn’t imagine not having something he wouldn’t be willing to pay 10% for.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

❤

[@Allthoseopposed]

@@awfulwaffle1341 Explains a lot. I just wish someone would have give me the memo that you can think and believe anything you want and remain in the LDS tribe. 🤷‍♀️ I had thought integrity was much more absolute.

[@kandeepayne7794]

​@@Allthoseopposed God is kinder than people. He allows people to believe and repent. Integrity comes when you allow grace to all, even the church and the prophets.

[@timothyfowers]

If they stopped requiring tithing I'd go back

[@JacobJohnsonGingerDancer]

but people spend 20% on taxes, or 35% on their mortgage, etc. people are so blind

[@jtohgaming]

I've read some bits of it; it is fantastic. The way it's written and organized creates great appeals to pathos and logos, the quintissential anti-ces letter.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

🫡

[@jtohgaming]

​@@LightandTruthLetterHey I got a question, where should I go from the letter? I have "A case fot the Book of Mormon" by Tad R. Callister and thats the only other apologetic book I have. I already know about MormonR and FAIR, should I check out books they recommend? You said you've done a lot of research, what's your favorite LDS apologetic site/book?

[@LightandTruthLetter]

@@jtohgaming I thought I responded already but guess not. 🤔 Wrestling the Angel (Givens), Who is Truth (Thayne), Faith is Not Blind (Hafen) KZbin I love LDS Truth Claims and Latter-day Saint Q&A Mormonr is great resource as you said

[@GeorgeZackrison]

@@LightandTruthLetter Who is Truth is fantastic, I second that book.

[@daleclark7127]

Reading his book currently and so far so good. I like the mode of addressing the evidences of supporting the Restoration vs. addressing the critics claims. I noticed this structure in the book and thought it was a great way to approach it. Thanks so much for this excellent discussion and how it edifies my faith in Christ!!

[@Allthoseopposed]

I am deeply invested in this whole discussion. As a person who left the church and is now agnostic, I still love people and I want what’s best for them. I’ve been seeking a way to help questioning members by least give them a heads up of what they might be facing if they do choose to leave. Not as a threat but an honest heads up, takes minute, analyze. I wish I had had someplace to go, or someone to talk to that was not motivated by fear and trembling but rather could discuss the issues with less passion and be offered different perspectives….and help them reconcile issues without blowing up their space in family, friendship and community. I’m also completely open to them figuring out what’s best for them. I hope that makes some sense. It’s a tuff one but something I’m still working on.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Love this. It's a very sensitive issue (like anything controversial). Thanks for watching

[@woodwarddlw]

I read The Light And Truth Letter. Excellent! I bought a copy for my nephew before he left on his mission and have recommended it to many people. Thanks Austin! Great interview, Jacob

[@dannyutah3859]

The brainwash is strong within you

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

⁠​⁠@@dannyutah3859 These aren’t the brainwashed people you’re looking for.

[@truthfromearth]

What a good and honest man. Thank you!

[@tamarabelcher915]

Already bought this book. I just started diving into it yesterday. What a great read and I’m only about two chapters in.

[@Whatiftheresmore1314]

Me too! 🙌🏻❤️

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Amazing! Enjoy

[@woodwarddlw]

What a great insight about those who leave the church and say they're happier

[@middleagedmary]

Some people may just be happier

[@woodwarddlw]

​@@middleagedmary I agree. Many are happier. I believe them. There is a cost though of leaving the covenant path. Jesus addresses it also in 3 Nephi 27:11. I believe they are happier, and they also leave destruction in their wake because they cast doubt in their loved ones lives, their kids aren't taught the foundational truths that their happiness is built on even if they've left. I see it all the time in the counseling I do. I hadn't been able to put it into words like this though.

[@PaulBlack-w7c]

Real apologetics, saving apologetics, was demonstrated in the conversation between Jesus and Simon. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus didn't congratulate Simon for his years in the seminary learning to parse scripture and make arguments. He blessed Simon for not relying on flesh and blood, but believing the revelation that came from the Father. This is the REASON (meaning of the word apologetic) for the hope that is within us.❤

[@jmark986]

This was an excellent conversation with some very insightful content. Thank you both!

[@thomas6163]

outstanding review and greatly appreciated a: for Austin's, "Light and Truth Letter", b: Jacob's depth of interview and Thoughtful Faith channel

[@justinvharper1320]

I love that you talked about the Hannemann’s and the seven brothers and their restaurant. I worked there when it was Kahuku Grill. Brother Hannemann was my stake president and I took a lot of classes with Seth Hannemann. They are such an amazing family. Thanks Jacob for referring the LDS truth claims KZbin channel a while back! It definitely help me remodel my testimony. I’ve never doubted the church but The remodelling that took place was just a deeper testimony. Thank you.

[@keithwc555]

This is the best podcast conversation of 2024. According to me. I declare I can give this award because of my personal authority. Congratulations on this prestigious award. 🥇

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

HAHAHAHA!!! love this!

[@couragecoachsam]

“When they are learned they think they are wise.” On the topic of critic’s privilege and the ease of tearing things down, I’ve noticed that there isn’t merely a tendency toward skepticism/cynicism but that there’s a sense of reveling in it; that critique is not merely equal to making positive cases of belief, but superior to it. That power trip has its highs, especially on online forums. However, where the ride gets off is as Jacob said: chaos and meaninglessness. It sows the seeds of societal collapse.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Faith is Not Blind is a great book that tackles this subject well

[@sheilasiggard989]

You guys are excellent!!! Thank you. Great podcast!!!!!!! Appreciate your courage to stand up for and defend truth.

[@winonadavies9201]

In your discussion about finding the foundation of belief in God as a basis for coming to see the possibility of the Restoration and its reality as a way God and Christ manifests Themselves, it's wonderful to see how your generation is working through the questions I asked myself in 1973 at the age of 15. That foundation of first coming to know the reality of a God Father who loves me, and His Son Jesus Christ, then made it easy to see the reasonableness of the Restoration. Thank you for this beautiful discussion.

[@hardwork8395]

Excellent presentation overall. I’ll read through this when I have the time. It would be fun to give a little bit of time for those who disagree with Mormon theology, to read through this and then have a show-or several-dedicated to answering critiques raised from the reading of the LaTL. I think it would be a lot of fun all around.

[@montipoulson491]

Great show, How do I find the "Light and Truth letter" book?

[@hardwork8395]

36:07 regarding Jacob’s statement that the most brilliant human beings that ever lived are trying to sort out our nature… They still are trying to sort it out, and they don’t all agree on what that is because these things are complicated. It doesn’t do, however, to push away people’s ideas as toxic or faith damaging because they disagree with the opinion of Jacob, or this person, or anyone else. Even when we disagree about certain ideas, there are other ideas that just might be helpful to adopt from the atheist, deist, Hindu, etc. It also isn’t helpful to lump people who disagree or have negative things to say about an idea or your church to label them critics, so as to simply lump them all together as having the same motives, beliefs, etc, so that you can summarily dismiss them all easily by pointing to weaknesses in specific people’s arguments.

[@UVJ_Scott]

Most everyone I know who has left the Church has the attitude of, “How dare you question my opinion that the Church is not true!” They absolutely refuse to discuss the matter.

[@jonny6man]

Oh man where do you live? I've found the exact opposite to be the case. Every one of my family members and most of my active friends will not talk about the issues with the church and don't want to hear any of the evidence that the claims are false.

[@UVJ_Scott]

@@jonny6man Utah.

[@jonny6man]

@UVJ_Scott Maybe it has something to do with Mormonism being the dominant religion in your area? How many people that have left the church have you talked to and acted this way versus just saying they don't believe it anymore?

[@UVJ_Scott]

@@jonny6man my wife and I served a Live at Home mission in our Stake. Our calling was to visit people who had left the Church or who had just become “less active”, so quite a few. They all had their reasons and freely expressed their anger and justification for leaving but would countenance no defense for the Church. Even at Christmas time they wanted nothing to do with anything produced by the Church. I don’t have any relatives that have left the Church but have a few in-laws and once again they have their justifications but have no desire for any discussion regarding their decisions. They actually think it’s the popular to do.

[@hardwork8395]

@@UVJ_ScottI’ve known several ex Mormons happy to debate it; however, I think I know what you mean because the vast majority are extremely emotionally triggered. I especially see it on KZbin channels and the few times I’ve visited forums.

[@joeriv4151]

I bought the book. It’s great.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

YUSSS

[@tgray747]

Amazing!

[@MemyzelphandI]

It is almost as if Jacob had a stupor of thought and decided to just stay there....what complete nonsense.

[@SCPN333]

Once i get a job, I'll be able to buy it.

[@-tikla]

It's free to read online!

[@SCPN333]

@-tikla I know, but I'm an old school Zoomer. I'm Gen z, but live and act like a boomer. I definitely prefer books.

[@timothyfowers]

For this guy to change his way of thinking in middle age is quite impressive. Doesnt matter what religion or way of thinking you subscribe to

[@natsukisubaru2970]

the end (part about littering) reminds me of Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law"

[@scottnelson1694]

I’ve found another whisper of the endowment in 3rd Nephi 11. Obviously not the same, but there’s a lot there

[@Sissysue22]

Loved it!

[@PeterNield-k7s]

im trying to get the book in Australia but it won't ship how can I get it?

[@drumsaway84]

You can download the pdf for free on his website.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

Peter - do you have a friend in the USA? Your could ship to them and they could ship to you. Even if price is higher... you get the book.

[@seshot01]

Coming from the view of another ethnicity, It’s not the beliefs or even the culture of the lds church that’s the issue. It’s the western traditions that the lds church wants to push on other ethnicities and saying live this western life and things will be better. Which is not. In my Asian culture, we take care of each other and the church teaches us to distance and depend on ourselves. I go to an Asian ward and I’ve seen recent members leave cause the church can’t help them financially or emotionally or spiritually. People that join our ward are always the poor, single mothers, with mental health issues. The church just seems to push these people out and keep the healthy and wealthy people.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

I am sorry you are living in such a ward. That is not the culture of this church.. or the teachings of the church. If you are in an asian ward, doesn't it mean that it is the culture of the ones in your ward behaving this way?

[@dennygreen322]

Spectacular!!!!

[@brandonl2555]

I watched pretty much every game of that 116 win season as well! Lol

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Go Mariners!

[@Allthoseopposed]

8:51 “If you’re going to pull people out of the church.” It’s an agency thing, no? If you tell some or lead someone to information that changed their life, are you now responsible for their choices and actions in life?

[@jaredshipp9207]

Alma 36:14

[@dr33776]

Why would you be responsible?

[@benpassey6509]

Motives matter. It's pretty sketch that you think lying and deceiving is just an agency thing. Truly, tue religion of Satan is to pull down and destroy, the religion of Christ is to lift up, and build up.

[@dr33776]

@@benpassey6509 is the fact that Joseph smith was a scryer and used his magic stone in a hat a lie? How about the book of Abraham being a complete fraud, is that a lie too? How about the contradicting first vision accounts and how they were hidden, is that a lie too? Who do you think has been deceiving who?

[@ericredd4544]

No one is pulling people out of the church. New Information is causing people to evaluate changing narratives, changes to doctrine, new historical information, prophetic reliability. (Have all the other prophets really offended God by promoting the name Mormon?) The church chose long ago to lead with faith promoting stories and narratives. They are now paying the price for that descision. Faith is a placeholder for knowledge, if the church wants us to be faithfull then we don't need information or knowledge. We just need to believe or have faith in what they/God (hopefully) tell us. The sad things is that the church took the wrong road, so now they know that the right road is to be honest and tell the full version of history. I don't think they have learned it yet but, the leaders need to repent and admit when they mess up. Knowledge is what really matters. The church made a descision to limit the true/accurate versions of many historical situations. They should not be suprised in the information age that people have acces to better and more accurate information that they must now process. Some people who leave can present material in a way that is not accurate or helpful, however, the church itself has not presented information to members in a truthful or accuare way and when there was a choice to make the church has always chosen the faith promoting version.

[@Allthoseopposed]

I am interested to know who it was that attempted to “pull” Austin out of the church? Who put the info in his hands? Who made him read the info and who caused his lose of faith for a while. Was it another person? Or, was it his own instinct, questions and seeking mind?

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Lots of answers. Like I said I think the primary driver was that I internalized athiesm slowly over time. I suspect that is a worldview issue. Likely years of more secular entertainment and education influenced the waters I was swimming in

[@natandjoec]

How about the CES letter ... There are a lot of groups, beliefs or religions that I have problems with and definitely don't believe in, but I don't spend my time writing crap about them trying to influence everybody else.

[@natandjoec]

And the guy who wrote it admitted to fabricating so many things in there and when confronted, says he's not taking it out because it's effective...

[@hardwork8395]

Regarding Jacob’s statement that the church doesn’t do apologetics, and that this is the domain of the Light and Truth Letter and his channel, etc: I can take that point. Let’s be consistent though. If you are in the realm of apologetics, where reason and evidence carry the discussion, you can’t appeal to prayer or faith. You either have evidence, you have reasons, or you don’t; they are sufficient or they are not. The moment appeals to anything beyond those start occurring, is the moment you leave the realm of apologetics into preaching and the realm of devotional worship. As you put it, you (like the church in your example) are starting to talk as if you are talking to a believer, and are essentially asking, “ok, what’s next?!” So, don’t appeal to Moroni promises or having faith in anything, if this is strictly apologetics, as you’ve defined.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

What's your purpose in this comment. We are always going to do the things you tell us not to. Apologetics for the church is a buffer while someone is finding their spiritual witness - it is not to defend the truth at all. The truth is the truth and will stand on it's own.

[@hardwork8395]

@ You are defining it in a way Jacob did not. That’s fine if that’s your way. That’s not his. My comment is about consistency with his-not yours.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

@@hardwork8395 - that's nice - if one goes about their life only using their five senses to prove everything, their life will be a very dull sad existence.

[@hardwork8395]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo it might well be but I don’t know who you are talking to or about because that’s not my position.

[@janineconverse7046]

I love the book!!!

[@MaxBrown-vy5qv]

Here's an idea for a podcast to balance out Jonh Delin's " Mormon Stories" and all of the cheery picked anecdotal "horror" stories sbout the church , he has posts 9n his channel( while still recognizing that members and Leaders make mistakes and can cause pain and suffering to others- which constitutes an extremely small minority),Lets create a Latter -Day Saints Stories channel- A podcast that shows the overwhelming evidence that the Church and the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ fruits are goodness, positivity, healing, service, love, joy and light and that is what it brings to its members and the world!

[@timothyfowers]

I don't think critics are as well organized as you think they are. They are just putting out some logical ideas and also quoting real history. All adults can weigh the evidence and make their own decisions

[@Commenter2121]

You guys are gaslighting your audience and encouraging that we continue to take that approach. Nobody expects Sunday school lessons every week on the seer stone, first vision accounts, polygamy, the priesthood ban etc. but for people who do stick to the core basics to never once hear about these things until their 30’s or 40’s, that’s not okay. It destroys faith because it becomes a trust crisis. These are hard things, they don’t need to be the focus but they do need to be disclosed. I grew up in the church, graduated seminary, worked very hard as a missionary, stayed active afterwards, married in the temple, and I was blown away with what I learned in Saints books and gospel topic essays. I’ve been able to work through it and stay but many won’t. We have to do better.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

That's not what gaslighting means and these things were never a secret if you were paying attention.

[@Commenter2121]

@@TheMinskyTerrorist I know what gaslighting is and I’m sorry but you’re wrong. The church has absolutely done this and many apologists continue to do this today. Read my comment again, why do you think so many have had a similar experience to me? I’ve chosen to stay but I don’t blame people who don’t. I appreciate the light and truth letter but many of these things need to be discussed more openly. Research the September 6 if you think the church doesn’t gaslight people.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

Commenter - Your parents and leaders didn't do their job and you didn't take your conversion serious enough. Sorry.

[@Commenter2121]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo Wow, more gaslighting. You don’t know anything about me. I served a mission in the early 2000’s and took it very serious. I was asked about many things like Joseph’s polygamy, the priesthood ban, seer stones, multiple first visions etc for two years. I looked for answers and talked to missions leaders and was told that what I had been asked about were anti Mormon lies. Cut to, the gospel topic essays in 2013-14, where I learned that everything I had claimed were lies was actually being admitted to by the church. I’m active LDS, but let’s all stop pretending that the church has not made attempts to withhold information or rewrite its history.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

@@Commenter2121 I think what they were trying to get at is that it was coming from anti mormon sources, which is true. They're not trustworthy. My mom taught me all about polygamy and the priesthood ban, and we also learned about it in seminary. If by seer stones you mean the urim and thummim, that's talked about in the scriptures multiple times, and Joseph mentions having a reputation as a "money digger" in Joseph Smith History, which you could ask someone about. The non-urim and thummim seer stone was discussed, with pictures, in the Joseph Smith Papers before the Gospel Topics essays. I haven't read it personally but if you had a copy of History of the Church you could read all kinds of stuff. The church didn't hide its history at all. Individuals would definitely get nervous and tell you to avoid pursuing certain lines of thinking, but in my experience if you took the Doctrine and Covenants seminary or institute classes, you could learn about most of the big stuff. When you keep saying you went on a mission it sounds a lot like the people who think they know everything about religion because they "went to Catholic school." Lots of people went on missions. Unfortunately I met many missionaries who hadn't read the Book of Mormon before the MTC.

[@Allthoseopposed]

51:14 The Baseball league never claimed to be in communion with God nor claiming to have gods power here on earth, nor teach correct principled and point the way back to God. Terrible analogy.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

So any institution that does anything meaningful is supposed to give a history lesson? Universities, Hospitals, Governments, Churches - All require a detailed review of all of it's nuanced history to attend, get treated, or receive an ID? Churches start with the presupposition that it is sanctioned by God. I would expect no less (from any Church)

[@hiltonsworld5753]

I think you're missing or looking past the point of the comparison. That analogy is shedding specific light on a response to the clame "The Church never told me ABC and XYZ so they lied to me." Like they said. The point of the Church is not to play apologetics and lead with specific historical issues or responses to all anti-Mormon clams. It's to promote and support strengthening a relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ by studying and living the gospel and making covenants with him along that journey. Also as a side note, the Church in its library has everything available to study for yourself. The baseball league comparison does exactly what it's supposed to do. And that is that those in the world of baseball are going to talk about the fundamental aspects of the game like it's structure, players and rules. It's job isn't to also shed light and promote corruption or possible steroid use or other issues within the league. What you're doing in your claim is creating a strawman. By changing the point of the comparison and inserting "Communion with God and his power and authority" You can't just take out the context of the analogy. The entire definition of an analogy is that there is a comparison being made but isn't a directly matching comparison.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

@@hiltonsworld5753 Your answer is better than mine 😅

[@TheRandomGangsta]

I swear, this dude’s letter alongside Jonah Barnes’ book about connecting the Apocrypha to the Book of Mormon are the perfect pairing against anti-Mormons.

[@rustinvk]

1:10:09 Perhaps Mormon Stories Outliers would be more on point of a name. The anti/exmo stories MSP champions are points of data, but as you said, don’t represent the majority of cases.

[@bambie1830]

Mormon stories, unless you say anything positive about the church or still believe

[@Revbone450]

Well, he's 1...of the 40 or so kids that I grew up with in the church maybe half are still active. This church is in serious trouble.

[@harmonillustration]

The Church is in trouble because of your guess of “maybe half”? What?

[@Revbone450]

@@harmonillustration are still active, the other half have left the church.

[@harmonillustration]

@@Revbone450 - I’m talking about your GUESS. You’re making the claim that the Church is in trouble because of your “guess”.

[@Allthoseopposed]

Finding information that contradicts the validity of everything your entire life and reality are based on feels like a crisis. I understand wanting to remove the urgency and angst that that word indicates but for some, crisis is the best description. It’s like living through your own death. I’m not saying that its good or bad, right or wrong but it is deeply painful mentally taxing and all encompassing.

[@amurdo4539]

There is an old saying in Zen: “In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; later on, mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers; and still later, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.”

[@joewest7813]

Does the commissioner of major league baseball claim to speak as God's mouthpiece on earth?

[@harambeboy]

Joseph didn’t use the ‘plates’.

[@benpassey6509]

You know this? You have first hand knowledge?

[@suzieq5383]

How does one “pull people out of the church”? If you give them information and they come to a conclusion, is that not them actively participating? People have the ability to hear both sides and decide for themselves what’s best for them. Yes, the church is great for a lot of people, but it isn’t great for everyone. I left the church and I definitely do not “pull people out” that actually sounds crazy. I’ve learned things that convinced me that the church isn’t true. I don’t see it as my job to tell all my believing friends and family because I know if someone had done that to me as a believer it would have made me upset. However, if someone wants to have an open discussion about it, I’ll just be honest. They then have the ability to discern whether or not the information is credible and what they choose to do is on them. Telling someone new information is not “pulling them out” 🤦

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Data and history are not the issue. Using the least generous narratives, interpretations, and presumptions is the issue. Thanks for watching

[@suzieq5383]

@@LightandTruthLetter It isn’t my job to control how people interpret the data though. Information is neutral, it just is. What you choose to believe and do with the information is on the individual, it isn’t the fault of the person sharing the data, that’s shooting the messenger. Again though, I tend to keep this information to myself as I know that if I were to blurt out something negative about JS, they would turn on me and accuse me of “pulling them out of the church”. Plus, I know how devastating it is to lose one’s faith, it isn’t something I wish on anyone. There’s no “coming back” for me at this point though, I’ve deconstructed religion entirely. I’m at a point where I’m perfectly happy where I am even if my friends and family don’t want to believe it’s possible. Narratives, presumption and interpretations are not what I’m talking about, that’s story telling, not information.

[@sdfotodude]

I was ONLY attacking ideas and the presenter.

[@gxgx1190]

It’s more absurd to claim you know the Book of Mormon is true vs you know it’s not. Listen you yourselves.

[@gxgx1190]

Kolby Reddish has offered to debate you on the Book of Mormon taking on the burden of proof but you won’t accept. So don’t say critics don’t ever defend their positive positions.

[@ryanr5139]

Angels are not exalted men angels are spiritual beings created by God before humanity

[@mr.peachychandler4470]

So Jacob, do you admit that ultimately being a Mormon isn't rational, but is functional? You say you went to the bottom, so you have to know the whole thing is NOT TRUE, but it's ultimately more comfortable from a human perspective? You're a student of the apologetic game, so you're too savvy to have a conversation about the bottom, but I see you. Clever evasion.

[@dr33776]

Jacob, let’s test the Book of Mormon. Why are the long ending of mark and deutero Isaiah in the Book of Mormon?

[@hardwork8395]

Jacob is fond of Ostler; and he has talked about Ostler’s expansion theory of the BoM. So, he’d likely use that framework to answer your question.

[@dr33776]

@@hardwork8395 is the expansion theory the assertion that Joseph used sources around him when he dictated the book? Doesn’t that completely kills the assertion of a historical BoM? Why would anyone in their right mind want to go there?

[@hardwork8395]

@@dr33776 I’d suggest reading Ostler’s original piece from the 80s, and then from a few years ago, updating it. I think he’s discussed it in videos on YT.

[@Allthoseopposed]

9:18 Who on earth is trying to “pull people away from the church”? I think information is valuable and I also trust individuals to figure things out for themselves. I feel it’s insulting to believe that you know what’s better for another person. Inviting someone to church or to investigating new information (new to the individual) is one thing but claiming absolutes and stoking fear and animosity in people who believe differently is a dark fearful approach and is the opposite of trust and faith in the individuals ability to navigate their own journey. Why do you paint those who no longer believe the church to be what it has claimed due to new information (some information that was explicitly taught to be “anti- Mormon lies” for years but is now admittedly factually true) the bad guys? Why do you make us the enemy? Why do you couch it as being so binary, so black and white? What happened to the belief or approach of “the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that will roll on and fill the whole earth…” God already proclaimed that no unhallowed hand can stop this work. So why the hate? Why the fear? The majority of people I love in this life or my LDS family and friends. I am not an enemy I just see things differently.

[@jaredshipp9207]

Because remaining in the Covenant is the ONLY way to inherit the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation, which includes eternal families and a fulness of joy. And the Covenant is ONLY found in and through the Church. Therefore, when one leads somebody else out of the Church, they are leading that person away from the fulness of what they could have had to a lesser inheritance and a lower state of being in eternity. Needless to say, the consequences are enormous, even eternal regardless of someone's intentions. The Lord's work and His Church will progress but that doesn't mean individuals won't fall by the wayside, including those led away by others. And those leading people away absolutely SHOULD fear. Read Alma 36:13-14.

[@dinodude8513]

I really appreciate what you're saying, and it's a sentiment I've heard from a lot from critics of the church that feel the same way. I think it would be helpful for you to read this guy's letter, because he explains the way he, and I think most members of the church, see it. To put it in my own terms, it's completely admirable and good to share information you have that others may not. The problem members of the church tend to have, especially members who already do know that stuff, is that how you present information matters too. We can both look at the same information and draw different conclusions based on what other information and opinions we're coming into the conversation with. If I come into the discussion with a negative view of, say, Joseph Smith, then that's going to color the way I present my information about him. I can do nothing but quote historical sources, and the framing I put them in and the way I present them is what actually makes my case. That's not even to mention a concerning trend I've noticed among both members and critics, that is to take any quote that seems to support their current position at face value, without really thinking critically about whether it actually is a good argument in favor of their position. I hope and pray for all the best for you!

[@dr33776]

@@jaredshipp9207it’s dogmatic, white and black claims from hard liners like you and Jacob that almost make me wish we will meet after this life to laugh in your face after you find out you’ve been following a false religion and wasted your life in meaningless Pharisaical ordinances. However, I follow Christ’s teachings and wouldn’t do it.

[@ericredd4544]

@@jaredshipp9207 We are just humans doing the best we can. Your faith and conviction are what guide"YOU". Your faith and conviction do not ensure you the blessings or truth the LDS church promisses you. Hulmility goes along way in this world. Even the God you think you believe in must be so much larger than you seem to think as a member of a 15 Million member church. The world currently has 7 BILLION people and less than half of them are Christian. God or a Creator certainly must offer more grace than his LDS followers with great faith and fervor can muster as they dogmatically defend a relgion that is derived from non-existant gold plates and a chocolate colored seer stone in SLC and not an Ancient Technology wing in a major museum.

[@jaredshipp9207]

@@ericredd4544 That's what missionary work (on both sides of the veil) and the temple is all for.

[@ericredd4544]

This seems to be Brad Wilcox 2.0. In reality these guys are talking down to former LDS, former invertigators and the world at large for not being members. Doomed to play chop sticks instead of real music while we " play church". Ignoring the beauty of 4 different accounts of the first vision. Ignoring the 4 possible tools JS might have used to "translate the BOM" 1. the gold plates and actually translating reformed Egyptian. 2. the Urim and Thummim 3. the Nephite Interpreters, or specticals and a breatplate 4. a seer stone, ie an egg shaped peice of iron banded jasper, the words appeared on the face of the stone and Joseph repeated those words to his scribe. Being closed minded to truths eclusive to the LDS church. Being closed minded to having your own planet one day. (Sorry, they have already revoked that reward, no planet for anybody anymore) Ignoring prophets that erroniously ban black members from ordinances for over 100 years Guys love your religion and faithfully persue it. What the rest of us do is of no concern to you. ( I know that non believers make the community worse) We do not ask for your pitty or your condemnation. We have processed the information and simply come to a different conclusion that you. I remind you of two of your beloved scriptures. Judge not that ye be not judged. and the 11th Article of Faith 11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

I'm okay if someone leaves. I'm not okay with critics using manipulative techniques and fallacies to convince people to leave

[@ericredd4544]

@@LightandTruthLetter I watch alot of apologetic and "ex Mormon content". I agree that there are "technigues" as you call them, but just like your example that critics think everything the church does has the wrong motive, your diagram gave very little grace for exmormons who in most cases are just sharing real world examples and you call it a technigue. I started my journey out and thought I was the first person in the world to loose my testimony and belief in the church simply by reading the 15 Church essasy. When I found others via Bill Reel and RFM and John Dehlin I did not see at all that they were pulling people out as you say. They were aware of the issues that had been, forgive me "hidden" or presented in their most faith promoting version. Anger and hurt and frustration seem to add to the content in any of the presentations. Do you consider yourself a nuanced believer compared to your pre-departure days? With your experience could you also write a book about the techniques that apologist use to "manipulate", distort and gaslight, in their apologetics?

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

This letter is not for anti's or people who have not joined (although Austin says that may be his audience), sorry. This book is for parents and church leaders to help fortify their childrens' and new members' position while this rising generation has time to experience the TRUTH, BEAUTY AND LOVE that this TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST offers them. Your points made here are mute and have been addressed. BTW - I'm pretty sure it was more like 6 versions of the first vision. Like anyone who had different audiences would do... the wording and tone and emphasis of each version was different.

[@lifetaketwo7662]

No what critics do is look at data. Nobody cares about angels at all. There have been countless “uneducated” farmers who authored books. I agree with nothing special or unique.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

Countless? Which uneducated farmers wrote a 260,000 word historical religious book in one draft in under 3 months as their first published work? A book with a complex and consistent geography, names with ancient Hebrew and Egyptian connections? How many 19th century authors (uneducated or not) could create the voice diversity found between the different characters of the Book of Mormon? The list of unique and complicated characteristics of the Book of Mormon is extensive. Critics view data under a naturalist lense and reverse engineer their theories to how Joseph did it and all their theories come up incredibly short. Where did the Book of Mormon come from?

[@chuckmartel1874]

Do you have a functioning brain?

[@TwoTreesVisuals]

I've seen so many posts about active members even finding the light and truth letter to be full of issues. Ad hominem, straw man. It's the same issue FAIR has created in the past. Putting out really flawed arguments against very valid concerns that members have. I think the new norm should be just being open and honest that there are issues, and own them. And then explain why people still believe. The nothing to see here approach can take an honest truth seeker and turn them into an anti pretty quick when the best you can do is deflect and deny and blame John for being just a bad guy. Oaks recent talk was money and a step in the right direction.

[@LightandTruthLetter]

I've only seen critics make those accusations. I treat Dehlin very generously in my letter. "In defense of the Church, some well-meaning members use personal attacks to undermine John’s show and cast him in a negative light. For my part, I believe that John thinks what he is doing is right. He is behaving in a way that is logical if someone believes the Church is an evil organization that does more harm than good." I attack poor arguments and ideas, not people

[@hellfireagency]

So: nix on the critical thinkng, double-down on a priori.

[@PaulBlack-w7c]

But, Jacob... I thought the plural of anecdote was 'data'. 😅😅😅

[@ericredd4544]

Austin, I understand that your transition out and back in is your personal journey, but you are not the same believer you were at the begining of your journey. I suspect that if we were to sit down and discuss it would quickly become apparent that you are now a very nuanced believer. Am I correct? This new belief is not based on simply maturing, it is based on learning in most cases information that was never presented to you in the normal course of your active church participation. It is based on researching for yourself in order to undertand how the narrative is different today than in the past. And how multiple versions of historical events causes you to choose a version rather than the cannonized version. That choice is real. And what most people don't understand is that almost every issue regarding mormonism requires you do process more than 1 simple truth or explanation. I have a hard time understanding why you chose to join Jacob Hansen in order to introduce your story. He is one of the most harsh and divisive critics of both faithful active members who don't conform to Jacobs personel version of mormonism and especially those who leave. Can you explain? No one is pulling people out of the church. Information is leading people to evaluate narratives, history, truth claims, and prophetic ability. I agree that some people who leave can present material in a way that is not accurate or helpful, however, the church itself has not presented information to members in a truthful or accuare way and when there was a choice to make the church has always chosen the faith promoting version. If you feel the church gives you the further light and knowledge you seek, more power to you. Please be careful when describing those who don't share your conclusion. That does not mean their lives are filled with darkness and lies and just because you think you are on a path to light does not guarantee it leads to the truth it promises. So, a lot of grace should be granted to others who have gone on the same journey and come to a different conclusion than you.

[@dr33776]

And yet he claims “the church didn’t hide anything”.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

@@dr33776 - the church has always used the most up to date media and technology to share as much information in our hands as we can. Good try though. Just because some members were not exposed to information during the childhood does not mean the church didn't have that information available.

[@dr33776]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo where could’ve I found out about the stone in the hat? What church publication? Who wrote it? When were they published?

[@dr33776]

@@Jeanie-nv7lo no response yet?

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

@@dr33776 - up to date information with as much information in their hands - do you understand english. You may want to look at the references for the stone in the hat as well. We have church historians who are giving just as much value to anti's and excommunicated members as prophets. The time will come when this silly SITH concept will be clarified and shown to be false (as to to being used for translation of the B O M). Thanks for coming.

[@rodneysylvester8249]

You guys are completely off base. Most critics were once strong believers in the church. My presupposition was that Joseph WAS a prophet and angels WERE real. And over the years I kept learning things that chipped away at that paradigm until one day I had to just look at myself and my bare bones faith that remained and just say "I don't think Joseph was a prophet". That was my CONCLUSION, not my starting point. And no, I don't have to know which church is true (if any of them are) in order to know that some churches don't stand up to scrutiny. A scientologist doesn't have to figure out the truth of the universe in order to know that scientology is probably false. Your argument lives in fantasy land.

[@jaredshipp9207]

And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. - 1 Nephi 8:28

[@harmonillustration]

“Most critics were once…” Source: Trust me, bro Speaking of being off base and living in fantasy land.😆

[@franciscopalacios4638]

The "do you have any better" approach is imo weak and us centric, the world has 8 billion people. Asia alone has almost no christianity. Are you arguing mormonism is better?

[@e.g.stokes]

@franciscopalacios4638 Right now, the Church is actually growing faster outside of the US, so the statement is not even really “US centric.” People all around the world are finding the Restored Gospel and discovering that it’s making their lives better, because it brings them closer to Jesus Christ.

[@franciscopalacios4638]

​@@e.g.stokes the religion is us based, half of its members are from the us etc. If any the attrition rates of the lds church in places like africa or asia are even higher than catholics. i would even argue most religions are seeing a surge in africa so its not something of the "restored gospel". HDR need constant reinforcement and peer presure which of course do not exist in those places.

[@e.g.stokes]

@franciscopalacios4638 Attrition rates in Africa? Having served there myself, I can tell you the Church in Africa is not shrinking. I saw no peer pressure from the African saints. I saw a dedicated religious base who loves God and who see the good fruits. In the video they even talk about this very thing. We’re not saying other religions are not good or that people are not happy there. We teach that there is a joy and glory beyond what is the commonly held Christian view of what heaven is like and we want to share that with everyone.

[@franciscopalacios4638]

​@@e.g.stokes sigh, "i saw a very small part of something therefore it must be true", seriously? I saw this in mexico when the numbers of the last census became public. The catholic church keep saying "yei we are growing2 and the census numbers showed an attrition rate of about 1 million a year. If you ask any church member they will they you everything is super duper nice! He says "do you have any better"? well there are about 1000 religions out there and more than half of the world is not xtian soooo

[@e.g.stokes]

@franciscopalacios4638 whoever said my experience was small? You’re speaking from an authority on what I’ve done that you don’t have. 🙂 You’ve already made up your mind, so I will rest my case with this: there is no greater source of light and truth out there than the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It may not be the easiest path, but is the most rewarding. God bless.

[@Allthoseopposed]

Finding information that contradicts the validity of everything your entire life and reality are based on feels like a crisis. I understand wanting to remove the urgency and angst that that word indicates but for some, crisis is the best description. It’s like living through your own death. I’m not saying that its good or bad, right or wrong but it is deeply painful mentally taxing and all encompassing.

[@jasonalanashby]

That makes sense. It is a matter of perspective. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Light and Truth Letter.