THE PROOF That Joseph Practiced Polygamy (Full Debate In Description)

[@cinsains1957]

My 4th great grandfather Jackson and His wife, my grandmother, Nancy Ann Clough were neighbors to the prophet, Joseph Smith. In their journals they tell of meeting with Joseph Smith in 1843 and asked if they should enter into a polygamous marriage because after 9 years, they were childless. Joseph was surprised that Nancy was willing to enter into polygamy, saying, ‘she was one in a thousand women!’ Joseph countered their request by offering, instead, that he would seal them in their marriage covenant and bless Nancy to have children. In 1844 she gave birth to a baby boy and they named him after Joseph. They would have two more children. They remained faithful to the prophet, his counsel and would settle in Utah.

[@topazblahblah]

That's an amazing story. Good for them following the prophet.

[@kimbrown9451]

Do you have a copy of the 1843 journal? Does the journal state that joseph smith supported the idea of polygamy or did he just bless them that their monogamous marriage would produce children? I havent found a single journal entry written in nauvoo that supports joseph smith himself living or teaching polygamy.

[@cinsains1957]

@kimbrown9451 this story comes through Nancy’s stories she told to her son, Joseph, named for Joseph Smith. They were converts from England and knew, even accepted the practice, as many did who understand the Abrahamic covenant. Polygamy was a calling, specific to about 5% of priesthood holders who were able to support a larger family. Heber C Kimball was taught and accepted the practice, along with Hyrum. I assume if they were taught to enter into the marriage covenant and sealing, that JS was the example. I’m not sure why there’s such a disarray of understanding that have negatively so affected the faith of women in our day. I’m a product of polygamist from 1847 pioneers in Utah. I hold it as a badge of honor that God uses, as in times of old, to rebuild a base of believers much more quickly and masterfully than man with one wife could construct a society on their own. I don’t understand the conflicted views, breathlessly trying to prove JS did not practice it, when according to accts, they were commanded to do it by an angel welding a sword. We will figure out all the details someday, but I fear this contest of opinions is much like the serpent on Moses’ pole. We get so focused on nonsense, that we forget what our true focus should be on: Christ.

[@kimbrown9451]

@@cinsains1957 thank you. When was the account written down. Do we have Nancy’s own words or just her son’s recollection of her words? The game of telephone and rumors occurred within the saints post martyrdom. The story of an angel with a drawn sword has no contemporaneous evidence of being in existence pre 1851. Joseph Smith surely would have written down if an angel commanded him to live polygamy. Hyrum smith taught on april 8th 1844 that even if an angel with a drawn sword should tell a man to love polygamy, you would surely notice his cloven hooves and a cloud of blackness over his head. Joseph smith at the end of his life perseverated on teaching how to detect false spirits. He stated that they would tell you to do something contrary to previous revelation from God. Same thing with the story of Brigham young transfiguring into Joseph smith. No journals from that date support it, even wilfred woodruffs. The eternal destiny of marriage, the eternal role of women, and how God treats his faithful children all make the question of whether polygamy came from God very important. Sometimes our ancestors are correct in their beliefs, but not always. We can still love and appreciate them for what they did for us. D and c 121 states Amen to the priesthood authority of any man who exercises any degree of dominion or coercion upon the souls of men. Whoever wrote d and c 132 were in violation of this law of the priesthood. Because Emma is told she will be damned if she will not “administer” to her husband and facilitate him marrying other women. Do you really think it would a Loving Father in Heaven that would tell the woman (or man) that you are married to and faithful to have sex with 4-52 women behind your back? God always honors agency. He did in the pre existence, he does on earth, and he will after death. Even for women. The book of mormon teaches that the followers of Jesus Christ know his voice. D and c 132 is coming from a different voice. One that condones concubines as good, says a man can marry a woman even if his first wife is against it along with what I mentioned above. We have no teaching from Joseph Smith connecting him directly to d and c 132. He denied that his revelation on marriage commanded polygamy two weeks before his death. He taught, for marriages to be in effect in the resurrection they must be made in view of eternity. He stated that was the whole of the revelation on marriage. He taught this multiple times. It is Joseph Smiths words and the documents from his lifetime that prove him innocent of polygamy.

[@cinsains1957]

@kimbrown9451 in the rough stone rolling books, work and glory books, saints, etc., heber c kimball, biographies have lots of footnotes on this issue. Women were never compelled to live polygamy. I have a paternal 4 th great grandmother who was told as a newcomer to the valley, by the wife of my grandfather, after he had shared a dream with Sarah, of a woman that would join his family. When Sarah Amison Whittaker shared this news with this woman, who looked just like the woman in his dream, she abruptly told them she wasn’t interested and left. Two years later, after getting to know the family and most especially Sarah, my grandmother Betsy agreed to follow Heber C Kimballs invitation to be married to Andrew Isaac Whittaker as his second wife. It was a household of joy and she brought 9 children to the union and cared for Sarah as best of friends until her death. So, these accounts, both of my step and my grandmothers accounts are first hand and contradict the negative narrative of those who despise the practice and feel it never existed. This practice, to me, was not without negative experiences, but on the whole, they are stories of survival, turning the desert to a blooming rose, human survival. I am a product of this holy order and am completely supportive of whatever the prophet calls for us to do. The practice of polygamy has had its place in the course of millennia of human existence, human frailty, and is a testimony to the survival of the family of God in a fallen world.

[@ThomasSorensen-t4k]

Can't take this guy. Talking loud and fast doesn't make you right.

[@HikeRx]

Isbel is annoyingly aggressive, not a good debater

[@germanmarine6582]

In the words of Don Bradley; “how many people who claim Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, are trained historians? Zero”

[@rickyde0255]

Is this an appeal to experts?

[@7dixiebug]

It doesn’t matter nowadays. So much is available we can study these things for ourselves. Almost all is available online for those who want to learn. And many trained historians I have found have a shocking bias and ignore evidences to suit their mind set. I don’t trust it.

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So Joseph was a pedophile and a liar?

[@7dixiebug]

As though one has to be a trained historian anymore. Almost everything is online for anyone to research to their hearts content. Besides, most of these "trained historians" are paid for their services so have the automatic bias of their employer. Untrained historians such as Whitney Horning, Michelle Stone and Jeremy Hoop were not hired to do what they do. I've seen too many historians ignore and cherry pick evidence to suit someone's narrative.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

But isn't Michelle Stone the most trained historian? Why didn't he mention her?

[@UVJ_Scott]

My GGGrandfather John Scott was a friend, neighbor and bodyguard to Joseph and learned firsthand from the Prophet regarding polygamy. John took 4 additional wives following the martyrdom of the Prophet. Three other of my GGGrandfathers lived in Nauvoo and began practicing polygamy.

[@crazyaboutcards]

I also had ancestors who practiced polygamy. Their children played with Joseph's children in Nauvoo. After reading their histories and journals, I believe them.

[@mwuth3727]

My GGGrandfather was John Scott as well!

[@randyjordan5521]

Was he related to Isaiah and Sarah Scott?

[@UVJ_Scott]

@@randyjordan5521 he had a sister named Sarah and a brother named Isaac but no Isaiah.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@UVJ_Scott My mistake. I think the guy I was referring to was Isaac. He and Sarah wrote letters in June 1844 which related a lot of detail about plural marriage. Those letters are important because propagandists such as Michelle Stone have falsely asserted that there was no talk of Joseph Smith teaching polygamy until after his death. This excerpt from June 16, 11 days before Joseph's death, reveals quite a bit of info: "because of the things that are and have been taught in the Church of Latter Day Saints for two years past which now assume a portentous aspect, I say because of these things we are in trouble. And were it not that we wish to give you a fair unbiased statement of facts as they really exist, we perhaps would not have written you so soon. But we feel it to be our duty to let you know how things are going on in this land of boasted liberty, this Sanctum-Sanctorum of all the Earth, the City of Nauvoo. The elders will likely tell you a different tale from what I shall as they are positively instructed to deny these things abroad. But it matters not to us what they say; our object is to state to you the truth, for we do not want to be guilty of deceiving any one. We will now give you a correct statement of the doctrines that are taught and practised in the Church according to our own knowledge. We will mention three in particular. A plurality of Gods. A plurality of living wives. And unconditional sealing up to eternal life against all sins save the shedding of innocent blood or consenting thereunto. These with many other things are taught by Joseph, which we consider are odious and doctrines of devils. Joseph says there are Gods above the God of this universe as far as he is above us, and if He should transgress the laws given to Him by those above Him, He would be hurled from his Throne to hell, as was Lucifer and all his creations with him. But God says there is no other God but himself. Moses says he is the Almighty God, and there is none other. David says he knows of no other God. The Apostles and Prophets almost all testify the same thing. Joseph had a revelation last summer purporting to be from the Lord, allowing the saints the privilege of having ten living wives at one time, I mean certain conspicuous characters among them. They do not content themselves with young women, but have seduced married women. I believe hundreds have been deceived. Now should I yield up your daughter to such wretches? Mr. Haven [Scott’s brother-in-law] knows these statements are correct, for they have been taught in the quorum to which he belongs by the highest authority in the Church. He has told me that he does not believe in these teachings but he does not come out and oppose them; he thinks that it will all come out right. But we think God never has nor never will sanction such proceedings, for we believe he has not changed; he says “I am God I change not.” These things we can not believe, and it is by Sarah’s repeated request that I write this letter. Those who can not swallow down these things and came out and opposed the doctrine publicly, have been cut off from the Church without any lawful process whatever. They were not notified to trial neither were they allowed the privilege of being present to defend themselves; neither was any one permitted to speak on their behalf. They did not know who was their judge or jury until it was all over and they delivered over to all the buffetings of Satan; although they lived only a few rods from the council room. These are some of their names: William Law, one of the first Presidency; Wilson Law, brigadier general; Austin Coles, president of the High Council; and Elder Blakesly, who has been the means of bringing upwards of one thousand members into the Church. He has been through nearly all the states in the Union, the Canadas, and England preaching the Gospel. Now look at the great sins they have committed, the Laws’ un-Christian-like conduct-Blakesly and others, Apostasy. If it is apostasy to oppose such doctrines and proceedings as I have just mentioned (which are only a few of the enormities taught and practised here), then we hope and pray that all the Church may apostatize."

[@natedawg2020]

This is like debating a flat earther. What are you doing

[@virginiahansen320]

It's fun!

[@Midcape533]

I love that Isabell looks more like a Brigham Young era polgymist

[@brightdaysahead382]

Yea lol

[@dfm1plus6]

😄

[@jeffreykinney8086]

That’s hilarious!

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

This debate needs to stop. Well done Jacob, Joseph was a polygamist all of the 100k sunscribers should unsubscribe from 132 problems. So many hours are being wasted debating over this issue. I think you did very well Jacob Hansen!

[@dylanwilliams2202]

There is evidence that Michelle Stone or someone else has bought sub bots to boost her channel.

[@jaredshipp9207]

Those subscribers are the spiritually immature who can't handle the issue and want to be told an alternative, albeit false, history. And Michelle is there to provide that because she can't handle the issue either. The only question is, how long until she gets her walking papers?

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you’re calling Joseph a pedophile and a liar?

[@Commenter2121]

Murph, are you able to provide adequate answers to her claims of Joseph’s innocence? From what I’ve seen, nobody has been able to refute the majority of them?

[@jaredshipp9207]

@@Commenter2121 That's because all you have done is watch her videos. You, like her other followers, can't emotionally handle the topic of plural marriage and you're looking for someone to give you the answer you want. Maybe you should find out why the Church, along with every historian in and out of it, believes Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage. You know, actually deal with reality instead of listening to frauds like Michelle Stone who doesn't even understand basic doctrines. It's only a matter of time before she either leaves the Church or is excommunicated.

[@vannersp]

Married is not synonymous with engaging in sexual intercourse. Don Bradley's research indicates the first two plural wives were pregnant at the time they were sealed to him. It indicates he was not after the women's bodies, but the sealing of the unborn children.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

I dont believe JS was a polygamist, but the Churches history is pretty clear that he was engaging sexually with other women.

[@randyjordan5521]

At least seven of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives said that they had sex with him. LDS historian Todd Compton wrote: "In the group of Smith’s well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith’s own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group fifty-one to sixty. "The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy as an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith’s polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it."

[@GarinWhitby]

My Fourth Great Grandfather John S Fulmer was a friend of the Prophet and even smuggled a pistol into Carthage. In his biography it is mentioned that his sister was a plural wife of Joseph Smith and that they were married in 1842.

[@randyjordan5521]

That would be Desdemona, who plural married Joseph Smith July 1843.

[@dfm1plus6]

Some of his assertions about Brigham and company killing Joseph because he found them out just doesn't stand-up to scrutiny.

[@randyjordan5521]

That is a wild, nonsensical conspiracy theory.

[@mormonismwiththemurph]

BOOM! Well done, i made the same arguments to my wife regarding the Nauvoo Expositor and it shows so clearly that the laws had read the revelation- and that Joseph was the author of D&C 132

[@Commenter2121]

Sincere question for you then, how do you explain the scriptural illiteracy all throughout section 132? Read Joseph’s inspired changes to the Old Testament regarding King David, they are in direct contradiction to section 132. Not to mention the issue with Isaac and the clear false narrative that God commanded Abraham or Jacob to take another wife. Nobody sufficiently addresses this, you and Jacob Hansen included.

[@brucenorth5337]

@@Commenter2121 replied, "Sincere question for you then, how do you explain the scriptural illiteracy all throughout section 132? Read Joseph’s inspired changes to the Old Testament regarding King David, they are in direct contradiction to section 132. Not to mention the issue with Isaac and the clear false narrative that God commanded Abraham or Jacob to take another wife. Nobody sufficiently addresses this, you and Jacob Hansen included." Hey, Commenter! Good points; Jacob son of Lehi condemns David and Solomon's dozens of wives and concubines in the name of the Lord. He points out that this isn't how this works; some of his people were committing adultery and trying to justify it scripturally. He also uses an important word in Jacob 2:30: "otherwise." Questions for you: did Abraham, Jacob, and other OT prophets break the law of chastity by having children with more than one woman simultaneously? Was Abraham sealed to Sarah? Could the Abrahamic covenant be in place without the sealing keys? Where are the answers to these questions? PS: I've watched a couple of Michelle Stone's videos, and she hasn't answered these AFAIK; please don't refer me to watch a 2.5 hour video as an answer. I want your own words, please. Thanks!

[@taituapetero5348]

😊Fzxgzgzdefq4​@@Commenter2121

[@randyjordan5521]

@@Commenter2121 You are unjustifiably expecting Joseph Smith to be consistent in his writings and teachings. William Law commented on Joseph's inconsistency and hypocrisy in his 1887 interview: “What do you know about the revelation on polygamy?” “The way I heard of it was that Hyrum gave it to me to read. I was never in a High Council where it was read, all stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Hyrum gave it to me in his office, told me to take it home and read it and then be careful with it and bring it back again. I took it home, and read it and showed it to my wife. She and I were just turned upside down by it; we did not know what to do. I said to my wife, that I would take it over to Joseph and ask him about it. I did not believe that he would acknowledge it, and I said so to my wife. But she was not of my opinion. She felt perfectly sure that he would father it. When I came to Joseph and showed him the paper, he said: ‘Yes, that is a genuine revelation.’ I said to the prophet: ‘But in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants there is a revelation just the contrary of this.’ ‘Oh,’ said Joseph, ‘that was given when the church was in its infancy, then it was all right to feed the people on milk, but now it is necessary to give them strong meat’ We talked a long time about it, finally our discussion became very hot and we gave it up. From that time on the breach between us became more open and more decided every day, after having been prepared for a long time. But the revelation gave the finishing touch to my doubts and showed me clearly that he was a rascal."

[@thelifeofryan8683]

The title of this video should be, "Jacob Hansen Destroys Guy Who Doesn't Know How To Debate."

[@renatep.7566]

I don’t think that’s fair, Jacob spoke longer and kept interrupting, I actually enjoyed the debate.

[@whatsup3270]

@@renatep.7566 These are never debates, they are scripted

[@elijiahburgess5506]

@@renatep.7566he had the floor so he was the one asking questions and this guy would prattle.

[@randyjordan5521]

Well, when you're wrong on the facts, you're gonna lose a debate.

[@JpVicvega]

I have never seen such effort put into a bigger waste of time then to argue something with someone that is so obvious to anyone that can read. It is comparable to having stubbornness and willful ignorance as if they were your very own super powers. please stop wasting your time and effort Jacob debating on such foolish nonsense with such people that only desire contention because they are filled with the spirit of contention towards truth.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

They have hundreds of thousands of followers. People obviously need this even though it is plainly obvious.

[@chrisblanc663]

@@jacobsamuelson3181agree. I doubt a debate will change their minds any more than a trip to the space station would convince a flat earther, but they deserve to be told the truth, like anyone else. What they do with that, is their responsibilty.

[@alexblake5743]

I believe one of the issues at play with this controversy is the fact that with regard to human sexuality, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. With regard to non-monogamy Joseph was commanded to introduce the idea that there is a right way. At the same time there john Bennett was doing things the wrong way. We also forget the last verse of section 132. There is a lot more to be revealed on this topic. If polygamy seems wrong to people, that's okay. Maybe it's because we don't yet have enough information about it.

[@randyjordan5521]

The idea that John Bennett was practicing a "wrong" form of polygamy is an invention of Joseph Smith's apologists. In actual fact, they were doing the same thing: having sex with women to whom they were not married. Bennett split from Smith because Smith propositioned Sidney Rigdon's 19 year old daughter Nancy. Bennett was on good social terms with the Rigdon family, and he was incensed that Smith went after the teenage daughter of one of his oldest and closest associates. Because of that, LDS leaders and apologists have cast Bennett as the "villain" all these years. There was no "right way" for Joseph Smith to practice polygamy. It violated the principles of the Bible, the laws of the land, and the published doctrine of the LDS church. That is why Smith denied teaching or practicing it to the day he died. In fact, his denials of polygamy directly caused his death.

[@alexblake5743]

@@randyjordan5521 You have a sex-centered view non-monogamy. Sexual sin is sex-centered and selfish. The fact that there is a right way and a wrong way applies to monogamy as well. For example, fornication is wrong because it's not building relationships. We're supposed to be using our sexuality to build relationships. Eternal marriage is a relationship that comes first and is unselfish. Bennett was sex-centered, Joseph was relationship centered. Polygamy was a life and death issue in Joseph's time.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@alexblake5743 "Bennett was sex-centered, Joseph was relationship centered." ROFL!!! If Joseph Smith was not having sex with multiple women, his "spiritual wifery" practice wouldn't have raised an eyebrow in Nauvoo, and he needn't have steadfastly denied teaching or practicing it to the day he died. Here is historian Todd Compton's research on Smith's plural wives: "In the group of Smith’s well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith’s own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group fifty-one to sixty. "The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy as an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith’s polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it."

[@randyjordan5521]

@@alexblake5743 Here is a list of women who Joseph Smith had sex with: Emily Partridge: When under oath in a deposition in the Temple Lot case, Emily Partridge was asked, “Do you make the declaration that you ever slept with him in the same bed?” to which she answered, “Yes sir.” Lucy Walker: Lucy Walker’s niece, Theodocia Frances Walker Davis, reported to Joseph Smith III in 1876, “Lucy Walker told her that she lived with Joseph Smith as a wife.” Malissa Lott: In an 1893 interview, RLDS Church President Joseph Smith III asked Malissa Lott if she was the Prophet’s “wife in very deed,” to which she answered, “Yes.” Eliza Partridge: Concerning Emily’s sister Eliza, Benjamin F. Johnson wrote in 1903: “The first plural wife brought to my house with whom the Prophet stayed, was Eliza Partridge.” Louisa Beaman: When Joseph Bates Noble, Louisa’s brother-in-law, was asked: “Where did they [Joseph Smith and plural wife Louisa Beaman] sleep together?” He responded: “Right straight across the river at my house they slept together.” Almera Johnson: Benjamin Johnson affirmed his sister Almera Johnson experienced sexual relations with the Prophet: “He [Joseph Smith] was at my house … where he occupied my sister Almera’s room and bed.” Maria Lawrence: On May 23, 1844, William Law, who had apostatized months earlier over plural marriage, charged Joseph Smith in a Carthage court with living “in an open state of adultery” with Maria Lawrence. Sarah Lawrence: Several statements document that Sarah Lawrence lived with the Prophet as a plural wife. For example, Lucy Walker attested in 1902: “I know that [Emma] gave her consent to the marriage of at least four women [Emily and Eliza Partridge and Maria and Sarah Lawrence] to her husband as plural wives, and she was well aware that he associated and cohabited with them as wives.” Fanny Alger: Several accounts record that Emma Smith witnessed Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger together (but not what they were doing together). One source asserts that Fanny became pregnant. Mary Heron: A single document implies sexuality between Joseph Smith and Mary Heron Snyder.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@alexblake5743 On May 23, 1844, Joseph Smith's former counselor in the church presidency, William Law, filed legal charges against him for "living in an open state of adultery with Maria Lawrence." I suggest you read the article titled "Joseph Smith’s Indictment for Adultery and Fornication" by John Dinger. It's on the internet.

[@JAWANOV4]

And here I am… just trying to figure out charity….

[@theodorebutler1758]

I found a talk by Elder Ballard in 1999 called Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers. I thought it was a very interesting listen through/ read through.

[@dcarts5616]

Check out another talk given in April 1985 Gen Conf by Boyd K Packer touching on the same subject called “From Such Turn Away.”

[@theodorebutler1758]

@@dcarts5616 That was an amazing talk!

[@dcarts5616]

@@theodorebutler1758 I’m glad you liked it. Packer is one of my go to speakers when I need doctrinal clarity, compassion, and love put into a direct no fluff way.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

remember that Jesus, Abinadai and Samuel the lamanite were all accused of false prophecy and false teaching. The only was you can know the truth is by their fruits.

[@owmypinkytoe6907]

He keeps complaining about statements being made decades after the alleged events take place.. does he even know when the New Testament books were written?

[@isaacerickson6312]

It's funny that this topic is even being debated.

[@bfastje]

Jacob Isbell is good at deflecting, he keeps using the late testimony argument as if that's relevant here. It's not it's relevant when you are asking people about details of what someone said or an event. Not something like did Joseph have more than one wife.

[@vonsowards1297]

Thanks for this highlights reel. Watching Isbel is painful. I don't know if I can ensure listening to the whole debate. I think you successfully allowed him to demonstrate he is an idiot in just this short video.

[@michaeldibb]

Who is doubting Joseph Smith was a Polygamist in the modern day? I thought it was common knowledge he was!

[@jaredshipp9207]

Certain ex-members, and those on their way out of the Church, who can't emotionally handle the issue and pretend to care about the evidence.

[@andrewandstacieweller1927]

An entire group of people

[@jaredshipp9207]

​@@andrewandstacieweller1927 Ex-members and soon-to-be ex-members

[@crazyaboutcards]

It is common knowledge but there seems to be a growing number of truth deniers. Jacob is trying to combat this movement.

[@sama.scraps]

I watched a video where Conner Boyack seems to think this way. He seems to believe rhetoric argument.

[@ryannilsson7955]

It’s aggravating to watch a debate with Jacob Isbell, because he’s constantly talking over others. And he hijacked the cross examination as well, to where Jacob Hansen could not ask or get the answers to his questions, as was the agreed format. I’m descended through Hancocks, and so the Fanny Alger marriage is a part of my documented family history. Considering this, I am one of the many who are unimpressed with the insinuation that my direct ancestors were depraved sexual deviants who plotted in the demise of their Prophet-leader so they could get away with a conspiracy to gratify their own lusts. They would have found that unthinkable. And a motivation like that does not carry a people with faith over the rugged plains.

[@angelalewis3645]

“And a motivation like that does not carry a people with faith over the rugged plains.” Right on!

[@TheDesertSpear]

Not sure why this guy keeps getting so much attention

[@Croaven]

Because he's loud and conspiratorial. That's pretty much it. If you try to show the logical fallacies of his arguments he just shouts over the top of you and starts making ad hominem attacks. Not a good person to have a debate with.

[@BadA_patriot]

Because truth resonates.

[@TheDesertSpear]

@@BadA_patriot you don't believe Joseph practiced plural marriage?

[@chrisblanc663]

@@TheDesertSpearI don’t think he does.

[@justinbarnum6442]

I’m excited for Jacob Hansen’s discussion with Michelle Stone!

[@cinsains1957]

@@justinbarnum6442 I’ve heard about all I can stomach from her. No judging here, but I avoid those who sew discord, and she is preying on those with new or unlearned history, context., but most of all their faith in divinely appointed prophets. The greatest lies come from those who are ‘learned who think they are wise’.

[@canigetawhatwhat]

Michelle Stones voice is like nails on a chalkboard.

[@ruckin3]

Im shocked by the number of otherwise reasonable and intelligent people who fall for Stone and Isabell's apostate narrative. You have to literally drive around logic and abundance of data so much that it hurts the brain . The church needs to EX Stone but they are terrified of women. They exed isabel, snuffer for the same .

[@ja-kaz]

What is Stone’s first name? Having a brain fart

[@zionmama150]

Michelle

[@dcarts5616]

Just wait. It’s going to get worse.

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you agree that Joseph was a pedophile and liar?

[@dgt8467]

Remember Sonia Johnson who was excommunicated? The Brethren are not afraid of women. Proceeding with caution is totally different from fear.

[@dallinbeveridge9269]

Way to you J. Hansen for maintaining a level of cool during this debate.

[@addeigloriam4844]

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. WIFE not wives. Just because Old Testament characters practiced polygamy doesn’t mean it was acceptable to God. All it means is He allowed it for the time being as His redemptive plan continued to play out and many of these behaviors carried over from their pagan roots. God’s plan for marriage is one man one woman….plain and simple period. If Paul says that marrying means less available time to serve the Lord outside the home, how much less time with two, three, or four wives. Polygamy is pagan

[@bmo5082]

Isn’t it also telling that when God place Adam in the garden, he commanded him to multiply and replenish the earth, but only gave him one wife. That totally destroys the narrative that God prefers polygamy in situations where population growth is needed.

[@wondermut3226]

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Good for you to go toe to toe and show his ridiculousness. Which I'd bet was your true point in debating him face to face.

[@RealAmmonBundy]

For myself I must do more to find the truth of this matter. That being said what is portrayed in this interview is not being intellectually honest. My understanding is that those claiming Joseph did not participate in polygamy believe Joseph received the revelation of 132 but they show evidence and make claims of it being changed after Joseph’s death. This interview is not casting the argument of the other side honestly. Because of this I make this comment and for no other reason. I only want the truth, either way.

[@randyjordan5521]

The allegation that the revelation was altered after Joseph's death is false. The principles of "celestial marriage" a.k.a. "spiritual wifery" were known about and discussed during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Hyrum Smith presented the revelation before the Nauvoo High Council on August 12, 1843, to seek their vote to sustain it as church doctrine. Three men in that meeting opposed the proposal BECAUSE the revelation called for earthly "plural marriage," which of course is adultery. One of those three men, Austin Cowles, swore this in a legal affidavit on May 4, 1844: " In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws. And further deponent saith not. AUSTIN COWLES." So nobody altered the revelation after Joseph's death to add the "plural marriage" parts. They were already in there and were discussed and opposed while Joseph was still living.

[@medeekdesign]

I think a lot of millennials have a hard time with polygamy even though it is still doctrine, just not practiced. That is why these arguments resonate with so many. Sadly it is false, Joseph Smith was a polygamist, whether we like it or not. You can’t change history.

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you agree that Joseph was a pedophile and liar?

[@Veevslav1]

The same millennials that do not hesitate to support murdering of unborn children... Oh wait, I know some older people that are in the same boat. Problems with a man being told by God to have 2-3 wives, but is fine with countless other abominations that are expressly called such. FYI Brigham took it too far among other things...

[@americathebeautiful9613]

Its funny that you bring up that you cant change history, when the reality is that is exactly what Brigham Young did once they arrived in Utah. He along with many in his employment made a concerted effort to rewrite the history of the Church. So much so that J Reuban Clark stated that the history of the church likely could not be trusted.

[@establishingzion688]

The saddest part about watching this is witnessing Isbell's apostasy and loss of the true Spirit of the Lord in real- time.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

The pharisees said the same thing of Jesus. Why are you trying to defend an unholy and impure practice? Polygamy isnt of God, its satanic. Read Jacob chapter 2, its explicit that a man shall have only one wife.

[@KaitenKenbu]

What is happening? People don't think Joseph had multiple wives now? What?

[@jaredshipp9207]

Simply ex-members, and those on their way out of the Church, who can't emotionally handle the issue. Basically regurgitating falsehoods even the RLDS church eventually gave up.

[@AnalogKid2112]

It seems to be the new flat-earth type belief that is popular at the moment.

[@Zez88]

@@jaredshipp9207 Maybe I am out of the loop here, however, all the ex-members I know are very firm believers that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. Most of the time its one of the reasons why they leave. I thought this was more like Stone where they are members in the church wanting to think he didnt have multiple wives.

[@chrisblanc663]

@@Zez88yeah, I’ve only just heard of this group of people who think Smith wasn’t a polygamist, but was a lie from Young and other apostles. Not sure if they are ex Mormons, or exuberant Mormons, or what, or even why it would matter one way or another if he was a polygamist or not.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@chrisblanc663 The "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers", of which Michelle Stone is the current "poster child", refuse to believe that Smith practiced polygamy because if they do, they have to admit that he was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. In other words, they worship Joseph Smith and treat him as a demigod.

[@gladbod300]

Good to be aware, thanks! I'm not personally concerned, but keeping the record straight is important, and glad you're adding a voice to that effort.

[@dgt8467]

Amen Jacob Hansen for the solid, well document evidence!! Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Accepting old prophets and denying future and current prophets has been with us for thousands of years. Plural marriage deniers claim that Brigham Young destroyed the Church and none since him are legitimate Prophet/Presidents. The only difference with the Protestants are the arguments in opposition and the form of persecution. The deniers reverence Joseph as a true prophet and the Protestants don't. Many of the same tactics are being use by both sides. You can disapprove of plural marriage in the early days of the Church, believe that women should hold the Priesthood, that the Church should sanction same-sex marriage, and that you should pay tithing on EVERY gift you have ever received, especially at Christmas, but when you start to teach it as truth in opposition to the Brethren who are called, ordained and set apart, you become guilty of priestcraft. (2 Nephi 26:29) Joseph Smith passed all the keys he held onto the Quorum of the 12. It was true under Joseph, true under Brigham Young and true under President Russel M Nelson. Just as Daniel prophesied the restored Church of Jesus Christ will NEVER be destroyed, shall not be left to others and shall stand forever. Game, set, match!!

[@rickyde0255]

I think Bro Isbell needs to justify his decision to leave the church. We often see this happen. I hope the best for him.

[@xovaqiin4844]

I don't think he left willingly. He mentioned he got excommunicated and still attends his LDS ward.

[@andrewdurfee3896]

I think he actually is speaking what he believes.

[@Mike-nq7fn]

Even though I agree with Hansen, he was super annoying in this debate and didn’t allow Isbell to answer the questions

[@jeffwilson4693]

I often wonder why God had Joseph Smith institute polygamy, knowing how it would be perceived, only to have it criminalized by the secular government and then rescinded by the Church. It leaves a stain of sorts, depending on your perspective and the image of righteousness by which the corrupt world judges things. It doesn't change my testimony, but makes it more challenging to share.

[@davidfrey5654]

Very good question. I would assume that it did much more good to keep the church alive and growing at the time than any fallout it might have caused later on. God knows the beginning from the end. But it’s a good question.

[@Zez88]

And why did God threatened J.S to do it with an "angel with a drawn sword" if it was just to be rescinded. Feel like there has been many other great times in our history where an Angel with a drawn sword could of came down and stopped something.

[@jeffwilson4693]

@@Zez88 I'm consigned to the fact that it is Gods work and purpose, not mans. As such we can't see the end, only the moment. I suspect it is Gods way of clouding his work in suspicion, to justify the unbelief of the world, and test or purify the fidelity of his own. So one should wait upon the Lord. We've much to do in our lives other than to presume to try God as if he were our creation, and we his master. I only know that God lives and the LDS Church is his Church. So I allow for the storms and arrows which cannot touch the truth. And even if I die, at least it will be in peace and near to God.

[@dgt8467]

I believe Joseph did it because he was commanded by the Lord to do so. I also agree with others I have heard from that it was polygamy, like the 10th plague in Egypt, that caused the "good Christians" of Missouri to spew the young Church out and let the movement to the West happen sooner than it would have otherwise. The Lord was and is still directing His restored Church, even when we don't understand all the why's.

[@Zez88]

@@dgt8467 Thanks for the comment, I haven't heard about that theory of Polygamy causing the "good Christians" of Missouri to spew the young Church out and let the movement to the West happen sooner than it would have otherwise. Can you direct me where I can learn more about this? It sounds really interesting to me.

[@sniffinout9316]

This issue has been done, and done, and DONE. It's become the GO-TO issue for people trying to make a name for themselves.

[@Commenter2121]

I like you Hansen but I would tone down the smug attitude and arrogance, it won’t help your case. This debate was entertaining but didn’t swing me in either direction. Looking forward to your conversation with Michelle, you better bring your sources because she will nail you if you don’t. I know you already stated on your channel that you would not want to debate Michelle on this topic because of the depth of her research. You’re on the hook now though, good luck my friend:)

[@3dfymyworld484]

when I read the title, I though it was something about Anti stuff... but come on... 100% polygami is true

[@sama.scraps]

It’s sad that this debate is necessary. I couldn’t handle the brazen attitude of Isabell. Too many are being led astray and many believe is a loyalty to Joseph Smith. Sad!😞

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you agree that Joseph was a pedophile and liar?

[@ClarkAboudaz]

132 has been discredited. The spelling of destroyed is not consistent with William Clayton or Kingsbury copying it. The deed to Emma was made out to Hyrum originally. There is no reason or explanation for deciding to repurpose a deed for Emma. William Marks disproves that 132 was read to the High Council as he says that Joseph asked the council to excommunicate all polygamist. Marks says Hyrum taught the eternal monogamy but no source from Marks saying he specifically said 132 was taught

[@randyjordan5521]

You need to seek the services of a mental health professional.

[@ericwchristensen]

The debate setting with these two brought more heat than light. Isbell's demeanor did not help his message. I believe Hansen's demeanor was only slightly less problematic to his message. I believe both have sincerely held beliefs which I appreciate and many of which I share. But please forget the messenger; please honestly consider the message all you who believe in the value of truth as it was, is and will be. Information that we have never been presented with before is coming to light. It is substantive. Much of it is contrary to what we as members of the Church have been taught all our and our parents and grandparents lives. I don't care where the chips fall, I just want to know what is true. And of God. You may feel triggered by what is being revealed, and or that it is flawed, but there are legitimate cases that are being made about Joseph, polygamy, Brigham Young and the many many issues that are involved. Please consider the calm, faith respecting, substantive cases Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, Rob Fotheringham are making. I asked my contact at the church history department if the quotes of the early church leaders that Fotheringham were citing were accurate. He said they were accurate. He didn't agree with the conclusions being drawn from them, but I am compelled to see them as self evident of consequential issues. I don't know all what is so, but I think as you consider the evidence that is coming out, you will see the issues also. After 64 years, I thought I knew how messy the history of the Church was, but I now see that it is heartbreakingly more consequentially messy than I ever imagined. I hope the good leaders process it per God's will. I hate the impulse to attack the sincere messenger instead of the substantive message. Bless us all.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

I love how he admits he has done no historical research. Furthermore, if it was a hostage situation, why is there no mention of power burns on the neck, and without the bullet, how do you determine if a hole was made by a musket shot from outside a window or a pistol directly under the neck? I also love how he asked for comments at the time, and then rejects the comments made the day of the meeting in a private journal stating that the prophecy was in favor of polygamy, just because it doesn't support his narrative. And the most entertaining part, "Brigham Young used material from The Expositor to fake a prophecy from Joseph Smith Jr., and The Expositor used material from a prophecy by Joseph Smith Jr., said by all witnesses at the time and decades later to support polygamy."🤦‍♂️ And where are the quotes of those Joseph Smith Jr. told any of his conspirators to stop practicing polygamy? And of course all of Joseph Smith Jr.'s wives were sealed after his death, the Temple, the only place sealings can be done, was completed after the death of Joseph Smith Jr., same as all marriage sealings, as Jacob Isbell very much knows or he hasn't enough knowledge to speak on polygamy or eternal marriages. Jacob Isbell asks for the scripture reference of God commanding polygamy, which is Deuteronomy 25: 5-10, but seems completely unaware the Abraham, Jacob and Moses were polygamists. Claiming that the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible refutes that these men were polygamists, but cannot give any scripture references himself, because it doesn't speak against the polygamy of these men in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, only in Jacob chapter 2 in The Book Of Mormon, but God doesn't say he didn't have a hand in their polygamy or that it was something that they did on their own. In fact it specifically says that God had to command Lehi because it isn't forbidden in the law of Moses, only directed. But in Jacob 2: 30 God specifically states that he would command polygamy in the future and why, it is definitely not saying he would command monogamy in the future, for he had just done so in the previous verses.

[@establishingzion688]

Amen! This comment needs to be pinned and liked a bazillion times.

[@dcarts5616]

This is the best comment.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

your interpretation of Jacob 2:30 is totally incorrect. God is stating that he wants his children to raise up righteous seed unto him, otherwise they will revert (hearken) to evil and impure practices (pluralism) spoken of in the preceding verses.

[@dcarts5616]

@@americathebeautiful9613 We’re going to find out real soon which division is correct I guess. Both groups have their reasons for believing what they do, but only one is correct. I hope when it comes out that who is wrong will repent and concede and then move the f**p on. I’m over it all.

[@bartonbagnes4605]

@@americathebeautiful9613 You are ignoring the qualifiers, IF and WILL. For IF I will, saith the Lord, raise up seed, I WILL command. Clearly stating something in the future, and NOT the commandments God just gave. God is not senile and forgot he just gave those commandments, he is speaking of other commandments for an undisclosed time in the future. And with The Book Of Mormon written for our day, it doesn't take a genius to figure out when.

[@John-d9k5z]

I dont think Jacob Isbel has an argument on this one, but for a white belt in BJJ hes pretty handy with an Ezekiel Choke.

[@sidunrau7880]

John Taylor did not write D&C 135; the Church realized that said assertion was impossible (it is no longer in the heading of that section). This does not otherwise distract from Jacob's argument.

[@briannicholls2628]

This is not a point that defines our path to heavenly father again. I read in Come Follow Me this week that Alma only preached faith and repentance. It is disheartening to find those that oppose the church. I do feel it is out obligation to express our testimony when needed, however this debate was unfruitful.

[@Hawkquill]

As LDS people, we are followers of Jesus Christ, so it's very simple if Christ asks me to take more than one wife so all sisters can be married and have children I will do it. If He dose not ask me to do it, then I won't. It's unlikely that the brethren will ask us to do this prior to the second coming but if so we pray and get confirmation like any new revelation. Is it likely to happen in the mellenium? Well if you read Isaiah talking of the mellenium then yes he has obviously seen this in vision. Isaiah 4:1-2 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. 2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. Why will it be glorious? Is it because all faithful sisters can be married to a good God fearing man unlike now? Many of God's faithful daughters will not experience this in mortality. So better take it as a possibility and accept it otherwise your likely to apostatise, if it comes to pass. Why is this likely? Shortage of men these women want to be called by his name, you only get a man's name through marriage. Isaiah 13:12 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isaiah 24:5-6 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. Men are few and as precious as fine gold, that's why these seven women are taking hold of one man, and trying to make it easy for him by saying we will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel. Just say to yourself I'm going to do all things that Christ ask me to do, then I will be able to dwell with Him. Unless you're dead against plural marriage, but is that being selfish? Keeping a man all for yourself and saying to bad for those yet to have that experience. How on earth is God going to fulfill his promise to these faithful young women if there is a big imbalance of males and females? Sisters already at single adult events out number guys ten to one, is there any point in them continuing if God cannot fulfil His covenant to them, as part of our blessings is to rejoice in our posterity, and the continuation of seed. As I was deciding whether to join the church many years ago, as I did not like plural marriage as I felt it was cheating, telling one wife I loved her and saying the same to another and felt I could not do it. One day as I was pondering this God spoke to me as one man speaks to another and said; brother have you not got four sons and do you love them all equally, of course the answer was yes, so then it's also possible to love four women equally as well. It was what I needed to hear as it was a barrier I had to overcome. We can love more than one of anything!

[@Veevslav1]

To play devil's advocate... Now rob tithing funds to pay for all those wives while telling a widow with children she needs to keep paying a tithe even while you exempted yourselves and wives. Now add the law of fast offering because you realize you are robbing the coffers for the poor and needy... Brigham was more akin to King Noah than Alma. We treat lightly the teachings of the Book of Mormon and are more akin to priestcrafts being supported by the hand of the people and encouraged to become popular that we might get greater gains...

[@randyjordan5521]

" if Christ asks me to take more than one wife so all sisters can be married and have children I will do it." That isn't how Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. He plural married at least 11 teenage girls who could have married other single men. Smith also plural married 11 women who were already married to other men, and some of those women had children by their legal husbands. Mormon polygamy was not a social system that was intended to provide husbands for single women. It was implemented as a vehicle for high-ranking Mormon leaders to be able to have sex with multiple women.

[@MRRANDOMZ11]

Many members will fall for this sad but true Yes Joseph Smith practiced this doctrine all Prophets did it was indeed a test just like Abraham sacfricing his own blood

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you agree that Joseph was a pedophile and liar?

[@thereluctantwatchman]

“all prophets did”… uh, I think you need to read the BoM again.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

Polygamy is condemned in the scriptures, and literally every case of it happening in the scriputres is met with disaster. By their fruits ye shall know them.

[@dwRS1]

I thank God for polygamy. I thank God for Joseph Smith and all modern day prophets. People who think it's about sex are perverted.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

I cant wait to get to heaven where I can have 51 wives. Life here on earth is such a drag because I can only have one.

[@Beastlango]

You can thank the sexual revolution for that, it has completely warped how people see history and the world

[@randyjordan5521]

If Joseph Smith's polygamy practice wasn't about sex, nobody would have opposed him, and he wouldn't have been killed over it.

[@dustinwatkins9284]

Hey Brother Hansen, could you provide the biblical references of where plural marriage was practiced in regards to Abraham, Jacob, David, etc for future reference for my notes? I'm actually learning a lot on this subject and just thought I'd ask if you could prove the info? Thanks! You did an awesome job by the way 👍

[@cinsains1957]

Read the OT.

[@alexspencer247]

I’m not Jacob Hansen, but here are some great Old Testament references for plural marriage: Genesis 16:1-16. Genesis 29:16-35. Genesis 30:1-26. Exodus 2:19-22, Numbers 12:1. 2 Samuel 11-12. 1 Kings 11. 2 Chronicles 13:21. 2 Chronicles 24:3. Happy studying 👍

[@americathebeautiful9613]

you wont find anywhere in the scriptures where God sanctions polygamy. What you will find are cases where it happened, and it ended in disaster. Just like youll find cases of lying and murder - doesnt mean God sanctions that as well.

[@ruckin3]

I want to always tell the truth so when MS13 gang members asked where my mom was because they wanted to eliminate her....I told them exactly where she is. I would never lie! I am not a liar! Joseph and I both never lied to prevent murder.

[@ItsSnagret]

lol - you realize Nephi lied to Zoram, Abraham lied to save his wife? Lying can be right at times and can be condoned by God.

[@igoldenknight2169]

Concerning that situation, not really sure that’s something to be proud of… I’m pretty sure God wouldn’t condemn the person that wouldn’t have told them the truth.

[@ruckin3]

@@ItsSnagret I was being sarcastic. MS 13 didnt show up to eliminate my mom lol

[@ruckin3]

@@igoldenknight2169 Yes. I was being sarcastic and putting isbells logic on its head

[@ItsSnagret]

@@ruckin3 oh lol, reading it again in a sarcastic tone I totally get it now 🙃

[@JoneThePwn]

Jacob's evidence is literally overwhelming. At a certain point when do we say someone is possessed by a "lying spirit"?

[@Karen-rx9xo]

There is much more to this discussion and he was a poor representative to use. I would recommend Jeremy Hoops or Whitney Horning.

[@Commenter2121]

Jacob, you slipped and said you pray to the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and two of the three were polygamists”. So you admit Isaac was not a polygamist, please explain how his name is included as one having wives and concubines in section 132.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

The type of polygamy (if you can call it that) that Jacob and Abraham were involved with is nothing like what the early Church was practicing. Not to mention that just because they had multiple wives, doesnt mean they should. In the case of Abraham, Sarah asked him to sleep with Hagar so that they could have a surrogate child. In the case of Jacob, he was tricked in to marrying Leah first. Again, no where in the scriptures does it sanction polygamy. Just because there are examples of it, doesnt mean its correct/righteous. Conversely, Jacob chapter 2 in the BOM expicitly condemns the practice.

[@kah0631]

So why do we consider the historians or novice historians discussed herein and their views on either side of this issue as more important than the Apostles and Prophets who have kept D & C 132 in our cannon of scripture? You may contend that Prophets look to historians for clarification on church history but this must be more than just history as it is in our scripture. I think rather than trying to have D & C removed from scripture it is better for us to Hold to the Iron Rod. Is it not enough work to become like our Savior rather than to question his Prophets and Apostles in this and other issues? What happens to our souls individually or collectively when any of us seek to steady the ark?

[@JohnEvans-xw6qk]

In either monogamy or celestial plural marriage, neither of which had the priesthood authority of Elijah, which is the sealing power, the list sealing power. Quoting Joseph Smith from DHC 2: 432 "I then observered to the quorum that I had now COMPLETED THE ORGANIZATION OF THE CHURCH, we had passed through all the necessary ceremonies I had given them all the instructions they needed " this is a commentary of DC 109 , about a week before DC 110 . The forecast it is completely impossible for the LDS church of today to have the sealing priesthood keys. These sealing keys were given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Powdery only. The highest priesthood keys was for the council of 50, not the church. Plural marriage or monogamy must be considered with the sealing priesthood and not these marriage systems alone.

[@aljeffs418]

My impression is that Isbell was deceived by a demon disguised as an angel of light.

[@dcarts5616]

Isbell, Snuffer, Stone, Hanks, Dehlin, Runnels and the list grows daily of the deceived.

[@IntegrityFirstContractor]

So you agree that Joseph was a pedophile and liar?

[@aljeffs418]

@@dcarts5616Amen to that.

[@Zez88]

I have actually heard this exact same thing said from Christians about Joseph Smith.

[@Karen-rx9xo]

You’re uninformed to lump Sniffer in with that group. Clearly, you do t read him.

[@CNStanza1]

I see why he was excommunicated from the Church, he is in a state of personal apostasy

[@tiannam117]

It’s like debating with a flat earther

[@laxboy6465]

B. Younf H. Kimball and so many more rewrote history. No wives but Emma acted as his wife at his death. If he has more than Emma they would have come out upon his JS death.

[@ruralgirl13]

I don't know, this seemed a bit chaotic to be called a debate. I don't think either one won that debate. I believe that Jacob's point of view is correct, but I would only say he won this debate based on the fact that I agree with his point of view on this topic.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

If he was to debate Michelle Stone, I think you might be persuaded to believe what Joseph Smith actually said. That polygamy is an abomination, and that he never practiced it.

[@RLDRemembrance]

Definitely not the same God that Jesus prayed to... That's the problem and the point.

[@laxboy6465]

Polygamy is creepy.

[@medeekdesign]

Should Sec. 132 be removed from the canon?

[@michaelhutchings6602]

Never. It’s one of the most incredible revelations we have.

[@Commenter2121]

@@michaelhutchings6602 Ya, I love the part where the Lord tells women to get on board with polygamy or be destroyed, and then Lord graciously gives men the law of Sarah so that they don’t even need their wife’s permission. Come on now, parts of that section are abhorrent and evil.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

yes. drumming up supposed revelations from Joseph Smigh decades later to reinforce the validity of polygamy makes it very suspect. Check out Rob Fotheringhams video on the origins of D & C 132. Youll be amazed by how shady a history is has.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

@@Commenter2121 funny enough, that part where is tells wives/women to fall in line was added long after the supposed original 132 was written. That specific part was written in different ink.

[@randyjordan5521]

@@Commenter2121 Yes, and "God" directed that part of the "revelation" to Emma Smith. So if you think that that part is abhorrent and evil, you need to understand that it came from the mind and heart of Joseph Smith.

[@petersenplayground]

@thoughtfulfaith2020 I haven’t decided what I believe in this matter and it doesn’t really matter to me. The gospel is true either way. I’m curious what your take is on why Joseph has no children with his other wives? That alone seems impossible if he really had 40+ wives or whatever the claim is.

[@misfyresalot]

Tired of this crap

[@JpVicvega]

yea not exactly sabbath day material.

[@crazyaboutcards]

Yeah, it's getting old

[@soutaschris]

No Joseph Smith had only one wife. Section 132 was modified by Brigham Young.

[@randyjordan5521]

False. You need to quit listening to Michelle Stone and study some legitimate history.

[@MegaJohn144]

Of course the church has to believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Polygamy is the basis for Section 132, which is the basis for the doctrine of "exaltation", and "the covenant path", which supplants the doctrine of Salvation and the Everlasting Covenant. You have to deny the nature of God, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the rest of the D&C in order to support polygamy. And if you are going to do that, you have to believe that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith in order to have the firmest possible foundation to build upon. On the other hand, if you believe that the church, and therefore your personal salvation, depends on the righteousness and absolute honesty of Joseph Smith, then you have to deny that he practiced or condoned polygamy. If you base you salvation in the righteousness of any man other than Jesus Christ, you are an idolator. The appeal of either side of this argument is not and cannot be based on evidence, because there is insufficient evidence to prove either side of the argument, so you have to ground your argument with how much you trust Joseph Smith. Do you really believe the church's duplicity began with later prophets, or was there right from the beginning? But the real crux of this argument is whether you believe your salvation is based on faith in church authority and temple ordinances, or faith in Christ. If your faith is in Christ, and Christ alone, this entire argument is an exercise in sophistry and pointless bickering, at the expense of more immediate and weighty matters. If you on both sides don't devote all the energy of your soul to obtaining charity and the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, this shall be your lament in the day of judgment: Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

[@jaredshipp9207]

You clearly don't understand section 132 and the distinction between Celestial marriage and plural marriage. Like many others, you've conflated the two. And like Isbell, you are basically a Protestant who thinks your faith in Christ alone is sufficient. Read section 76 and the difference between those who inherit the Celestial and Terrestrial kingdoms. Those who inherit the latter have a testimony of Jesus. But they did not accept the fulness of His gospel, including the temple ordinances.

[@topazblahblah]

Faith in Christ is the same as faith in His church, if you believe He has a church. He did, and He does. You've set up a false dichotomy here.

[@americathebeautiful9613]

thank you for sharing this, and I totally agree with you. We need to put our total faith in Jesus and stop worshipping the prophets like they are Gods.

[@MegaJohn144]

@@jaredshipp9207 Celestial marriage IS plural marriage. It's the same thing only one-at-a-time, instead of multiple wives. I have read the entire D&C dozens of times and wrote a book about it. The testimony of Jesus is His personal promise to you that you have eternal life. Section 76 lists the exact qualifications for each degree of glory. It says nothing about temple marriage. The D&C repeatedly says that the Bible and the Book of Mormon contain the "fulness of the Gospel". Neither mentions temple ordinances. Read 3 Nephi 11. The Lord outlines exactly what His doctrine is: Faith, Repentance, the three baptisms. He warns that anybody who teaches more or less than this and establishes is for His doctrine is building his house on shifting sand and the gates of hell will prevail against him. I accept the temple ordinances as a valuable teaching tool. They do not save you, but they do teach how we may develop a relationship with the Lord and thereby enter into His Presence (even in this life), and receive salvation. There is no salvation 2.0. There is only salvation, which is to be exactly as Christ is, no more, no less. "Exaltation" simply means to ascend from a lesser degree to a greater degree. Joseph Smith taught that we progress from one small degree to a greater degree, from exaltation to exaltation, until we attain to the resurrection of the dead. By the way, I have officiated in all the temple ordinances and received all the temple ordinances -- even the one we aren't supposed to talk about.

[@MegaJohn144]

@@topazblahblah We are invited to have faith in Christ, but nowhere does the Gospel teach to have faith in a church. The Lord defines what IS His church and what IS NOT His church as follows: D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. D&C 10:68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church. D&C 10:69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

[@furtherlightandknowledge]

Why? Why? Why? Seriously, please stop with the interviews with this guy. So annoying. There is no benefit to this. I know you like to debate but this is not productive. This turns me off to your channel.

[@BadA_patriot]

Try toning down the pride and smugness next time. But that might be inevitable when you get schooled by Michelle when you two discuss. Remember what she taught you in this debate…sources matter. I think she won the debate with that one question that left you looking pretty foolish

[@jaredshipp9207]

Michelle has yet to "school" anyone. She's a spiritual 2 year old who doesn't even understand basic doctrines like priesthood, keys, how revelation is received, etc. Yet she thinks she's qualified to opine on plural marriage and tell a spiritually immature people what they want to hear. Because she simply can't handle the issue of plural marriage, and because of certain members in her family, she has chosen to go down this revisionist road where she dishonestly cherrypicks what she likes while narrowing the goalposts to ignore anything that doesn't suit her narrative. And when backed into a corner, she turns on the tears. It's all about emotion with her. Not evidence. Her issue is plural marriage itself, not what Joseph did or didn't do. She simply has to rewrite Joseph's history to justify herself. The only question, how long before she rightfully gets excommunicated like Isbell was? How long before she's also claiming John Taylor shot Joseph and President Nelson is engaged in Satanic child abuse? If Jacob doesn't hold back, he should be able to nail her to the wall just like he did Isbell.

[@dcarts5616]

@@jaredshipp9207It isn’t about polygamy. It’s about exaltation being associated with celestial marriages of man/woman sealings and procreation being a divine institution between a man and a woman. If MS, and others like her, succeed in this endeavor, they can cause other inspired practices to be questioned such as marriage ONLY being recognized in the heavens via being sealed as husband and wife, male and female. It all comes down to them wanting worldly kweerness to be the law in heaven, and not obedience to a higher law of a covenant that includes procreation just as nature, and god intended it to be among the human creation.

[@Veevslav1]

I love people commenting on videos they never watched... Very intelligent and mature of them... Sure lends credence to their statements...

[@angelalewis3645]

@@dcarts5616 I like your spelling of the q word, and I like what you said. :)

[@wowmerica]

“Proof” 😂😂😂

[@penguinman9837]

Isbell came unprepared and makes many references without showing them. He interrupts and runs off on tangents. That's filibustering. It was hard to watch. That said, he has a passionate testimony, which is interesting. Worth considering his position as there may be some truth somewhere in between.

[@Veevslav1]

Passionate testimony can be a lie just like anything else...

[@7dixiebug]

Do you think everyone who is excommunicated deserves it? That’s just not true

[@dcarts5616]

That doesn’t mean that most who are excommunicated don’t deserve it.

[@7dixiebug]

@@dcarts5616 it’s so judgmental though.

[@dcarts5616]

@@7dixiebug When Jesus says to many on judgement day, that he knows them not, they won’t be able to say that they didn’t hear how to behave. The gospel is the map, Jesus is the light. Man has been called the preach that gospel to other men, and call one another to repentance in preparation to meet their maker. Either we know him and follow him and we’re therefore exalted, or we claim we know his name only and didn’t take up our cross. There’s nothing judgemental about that. Either you believe the doctrine of the church you attend, or you need to find another church.

[@7dixiebug]

@@dcarts5616 the fact is the church is very divided on the subject of polygamy and whether Joseph Smith practiced it or not. The leaders themselves are very divided on this subject. I believe in the gospel. The church itself has many things right but not all. They disagree with each other so what do they expect of us? I study the scriptures and also church history and the words of Joseph Smith, I happen to believe Joseph Smith and Hyrum when they said polygamy is a whoredom . You may not, that’s up to you. I also pray continually to know the truth. Every day. I am confident I am not wrong in this subject. I also believe Elohim lived his daughters as much as His sons and doesn’t ever see us as property. The nature of God each of us must gain a testimony of personally. It can’t be given by the church. If you see women as wombs or property that’s your choice but you may find in the end you are just wrong,

[@dcarts5616]

@@7dixiebug Your last accusation is pretty bold. A big leap. An incorrect supposition even. I’ll let it slide and move on. JS was sealed to almost 50+/-women. You can’t dispute it. I am happy to have never been one of the 10-25% of the church that was called to plural marriage during that time. It would have rocked me too, but the strength that those saints gained from obedience to that hard seasonal commandment was priceless. JS was reluctant, but instituted the practice of plural marriage. Period. The church is divided over a lot, surely. The more wordly and alike the unbelieving we desire to become, the easier it is to want to distance ourselves from things that make us unique. Wordliness is not happiness. I choose not to swim downstream, rather I’ll fight upstream against the world until the day I pass from mortality.

[@holyroller4391]

First and only error yet, the keys of the Kingdom will not be taken away. You were doing a good job until you stopped relying on factual statements. This statement you referred to was given by the angel when they were given the Aaronic priesthood. It has nothing to do with any other keys. Period. Keep facts facts and beliefs away from facts.

[@thereluctantwatchman]

And the great fallacy is that the LDS church thinks that means they will always have them. What if the Lord simply gives them to the true house of Israel as noted in 3 Nephi 16:11?

[@PresidentBrighamYoung]

For those of you that think I am a fraud, I assure you, I am among the noble and great ones.

[@Veevslav1]

When Brigham said Joseph, Joseph as he was dying it was because Joseph had come to kick his...

[@THECABIN-FC]

Nobles don’t twist scripture to justify keeping a whole race from enjoying ordinances and blessings…..

[@alantomlinson5740]

The one major weakness in Jacob's position is the continual questioning of "why" so and so never denied... etc. Expecting someone to prove a negative and second guess someones motives for not doing something, even their very thoughts, is a non-argument.

[@jacobmayberry1126]

In this case it's absolutely valid to ask why they never denied it because of how taboo adultery was at that time (and even now). If someone accused you of doing what looks like adultery on its face wouldn't you be the first to deny it if you didn't actually do it?

[@topazblahblah]

When there's a preponderance of individuals directly connected with the man in question and his claimed practice it becomes very relevant.

[@daniallemmon5453]

Yes Joseph Smith lied about polygamy. He practiced it even while denying it. Neeeext

[@Energizerd3]

Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. Doubt is not of the spirit. Cognitive dissonance.

[@Beastlango]

That phrase means you need to put your doubts to the same scrutiny that people put faith under. If all you do it’s only scrutinize faith and never the doubt all you will ever lose if faith and not for actually thought out reasons.

[@jeffreykinney8086]

Of course Joseph Smith Jr., the King, practiced the highest of the “new” and everlasting covenant. Duh! Please!

[@jeffreybernson7978]

The answer is NO !! Read the D&C !!! Waste of time ..

[@markstimson983]

This guy is outrageous even though he is right. The evidence that Joseph Smith not only never practiced polygamy but was vehemently against it is overwhelming. Our own church history overwhelmingly supports this conclusion. Polygamy was a creation of Brigham Young while Joseph, Hyrum, Emma and others were doing everything they could to root this evil out of the church. Just read the voice of Innocence that Joseph had produced and was read before the church and four relief society meetings and was unanimously approved. There’s too much to go through here. See Michele Stone’s work.

[@crazyaboutcards]

🙄

[@cinsains1957]

Nope nope nope.

[@jaredshipp9207]

Anyone who falls for Michelle Stone's lies understands neither Church history or Gospel doctrine. Stone herself doesn't even understand basic doctrines like priesthood keys or how revelation is received. And she's hardly qualified to opine on plural marriage. Nobody agrees with her except ex-members and those on their way out of the Church. The Church itself disagrees with her. Historians in and out of the Church disagree with her. Even the RLDS church, who pushed the same lies long before she came along, no longer agrees with her. The only ones who buy her revisionist history are similarly spiritually immature people who can't handle the issue of plural marriage and are looking for someone to tell them a comfortable lie. Isbell was rightfully excommunicated and its only a matter of time before Michelle is too.

[@establishingzion688]

You are being deceived by Michelle Stone. Don't leave the priesthood keys

[@whatsup3270]

That is reasonable if one understands the truth of Joseph's continuous adultery, the Church re-labeled adultery as marriage.

[@deltatrader72]

Joseph was a liar. It's that simple