Debate: Has Brexit split the country too much? Will Self & Lionel Shriver

Has Brexit divided the country too much? (Subscribe: bit.ly/C4_News_Subscribe)
We talk to Will Self and Lionel Shriver, two authors on different sides of the Brexit debate.
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[@JMB1891]

The country was already divided even before Brexit. This idea that the country was fully united before is ridiculous and completely untrue.

[@stevenclark6209]

Not in channel four,they have been on ITV but it just depends what story's..

[@georgeswampy6224]

, Tell me JB, does your KZbin key board consist of two little boxes, that cover the post, that you are trying to write. KZbin has made it almost impossible to type a thing, I want to know if it’s just a few people that KZbin are trying to close down.

[@edmundmb]

JB That is Spot on.

[@stevenclark6209]

@@georgeswampy6224 I haven't had one bit of trouble writing away.

[@georgeswampy6224]

It’s NOT Brexit that has divided the country, it’s always been this vile Nazi EU Dictatorship that has been the guilty one in that respect. the sooner we are out the better.

[@hugh11]

Channel 4 news can be great but their idea for an interview: Lets get two really interesting and intelligent people. But give them only 20 seconds to respond and do it in front of a load of people shouting with a siren

[@malcolmscrawdyke1868]

All they need now is a big sign behind John Snow with "FIGHT" written on it.

[@forza223bowe5]

This country has been divided for so long well before Brexit.

[@adtastic1533]

Yep. Brexit the symptom not the cause. Just like Trump tbh.

[@shanehull6235]

The irony of the hate for unelected officials in a country with a monarchy and House of Lords

[@shanehull6235]

Håkan Lundberg it’s hard for me to stick up for the uks Government but you used the USA as an example so I can. At least in the uk the most votes win elections and referendums

[@Nikola95inYT]

Unelected officials and the monarch don't intervene in political life directly

[@popculture70]

The real irony is that they want to bring "control" back to Westminster, but they hate the MPs in Westminster even more! They think that suddenly their lives will be better after Brexit. They'll be a lot worse. They'll be poorer, with fewer opportunities. We all will be. That's the sad thing.

[@ubergeraldine]

The monarchs are figure heads with no actual power. Unlike parliament which is full of twats with plenty of power.

[@eleanorsmith5264]

@Håkan Lundberg I'm not sure exactly what you're aiming at. From what I did understand; the USA has a flawed democracy because it is not a one person, one vote system. Their Electrole College means that the national popular vote does not determine the outcome of the United States presidential election. So 2 of the last 4 Presidents did NOT get the most votes in the election. Both GW Bush & Trump got FEWER votes than their opponents. Then their states each get 2 senators each; yet the population of California 40+ million, Wyoming 580 thousand. Puerto Ricans are Americans but only get to vote for president if they live on the mainland. Then there is also their "territories" that get no vote at all. How democratic is that? That said, having an unelected higher house in this day and age is also ludicrous.

[@adriansluzky1322]

Boaty McBoatface was the first clue our democracy was in trouble

[@paulies5407]

The class system still reigns

[@derekwhyle1884]

Your wrong. It’s not class it’s money that rules. The brexit bankrollers didn’t have an ounce of class between them but they managed to buy a result.

[@JackJames2612]

this is like an optical illusion. looks like Lionel Shriver is standing miles away.

[@FiveLiver]

No the two men are ultra tall freaks

[@guardianangel6926]

The country is in trouble and has been in trouble for a long time. Leaving the EU is not going to fix that; it is going to make things worse. Because people will realise that they are still facing the same problems, and that the country itself needs to change (its political system and its 'business model').

[@guardianangel6926]

@TheCausationSure, sod all the people who know what they are talking about, and don't let the scientists fool you, the earth is actually flat, and the moon is made of cheese.

[@guardianangel6926]

@TheCausation In the words of a former Tory MP who has finally seen the light: We can refuse to acknowledge the trade-offs between sovereignty, prosperity and security - and then blame the politicians for failing to deliver an impossible task. Or we can, as a country, face the truth that all forms of Brexit make Britain poorer, less secure and less influential.

[@guardianangel6926]

There is a very simple question I have been asking both leave and remain voters since the day after the referendum. Leave voters in particular get angry when I ask this question. I ask Scottish nationalists the same question when they demand independence: How? Because realistically it cannot be done. Ultimately the leave voters will blame everyone but themselves for the mess and will seek to reverse what they voted for in future elections. The government has been tasked with something that is impossible. That is why we are now getting ever closer to something nobody wants: a CU.

[@adtastic1533]

Its true what you say but the EU is just as flawed as the UK. I dont think its gonna last to be honest. You cant have a federal structure without a common language, and you cant have a common currency without a federal structure. The whole thing depends on Germany and if the German taxpayer has to bail out the Italian banks, which could happen at any time, then the game is up.

[@guardianangel6926]

​@@adtastic1533 We will have to see what the future brings. So far, both the EU and the Euro - despite all the problems - have been very successful. Over the past 2 decades the Euro countries have outperformed both the UK and US, resulting in an increase in the value of the Euro of 30% against the Pound and the Dollar. I think the benefits of being a member state are simply far too big to seriously contemplate abandoning the project (even for net contributors like Germany and the Netherlands). This is demonstrated clearly by the mess that is Brexit. My bet is that Italy will come round once the current populist government has sufficiently demonstrated to the electorate that it cannot deliver on its promises and that it is incapable of running the country. The thing that, I think, is most striking about the last 4 decades is how much the world has changed, and that change has only just started to pick up speed. People over 50 (I am 60) have a hard time keeping up with this changing world. National identity and national language are now far less important than they were only 20 years ago. English is developing into a “lingua franca” that is increasingly disconnected from its Anglo-Saxon roots.

[@TomeAlone]

So good to finally see Christopher Eccleston back as the Doctor! The sound design of the Daleks in the background needs some adjustments, lower perhaps could barely heard the dialogue. Still tho looks like it's gonna be a good season.

[@denisdaly1708]

She keeps talking about the people's will. However, yesterday Boris Johnson and Michael Gove had to admit after they lost a court case, that the leave campaign broke the law. Arron Banks received money from Russia as well. This week, Irish republic analysis forecast a drop of 5% of the GDP there if a no deal Brexit were to happen. The UK would drop 10% in income. Now, Irelamd is very wealthy, because of the EU, and not having the insane policies of the UK, especially the conservative party. The UKs problem is the policies of its parties since the 80s and Thactherism. The north of England is destitute, as Thachter intended, and there has been no investment in manufacturing, unlike Germany, since Thacther got rid of Hesteltine. Putting all the economic eggs into the financial services basket has proven a huge mistake. A UN report last November forecast that child poverty in the UK would increase from 30 to 40% due to Brexit. That 30% are already living in poverty is a national and international disgrace. They blamed the intentional policies of the Tories for this. Ireland is very wealthy because of the EU, very smart and educated immigrants, a better educational system, and a better social safety net. The Educational system in the UK is shocking. It reeks of old fashioned elitism. No wonder you are in so much difficulties. Going to Eton, and then studying philosophy, economics, and politics in Oxbridge, illeqips politicians. All sing from the same hymn sheet. One needs diversity, sociology, and an understanding of research, how other countries operate. Education in Finnland was revamped in the early 00s. It is the opposite of the UK, where students are not punished, and all must attend the same schools. The children spend less time in school, but learn how to think. As a result they out perform the UK by a long way. The UK problems are due to different governments policies, not the EU. The EU has brought peace to Europe. That woman, and I hate to say it, I Hope she doesn't get Alzheimer's as she seemed to be grasping for words, couldn't understand how remainers were not nationalistic. Well De Zavala (2018) researched this. It is not really nationalism that leavers scored high on, it was what she measured as collective narcissism. As an example, the trade minister and the ERG and others were 100% convinced that the UK would secure better trade deals outside of the EU. This was fantasy stuff. Parliament is stuck because the full implications of leaving are now painfully apparent to Mps. It has hit reality. I feel strange. I am from Ireland, and I am watching a once powerful nation, vote for poverty because of xenophobia. Goodwin in 2017, showed that leavers tend to have lower IQs. They are also more conspirisy minded (Swami et al. 2018). So they were easily persuaded by the daily mail, and the express, and even the telegraph, papers penned by billionaires who reside outside of the country.

[@Paul54378]

I like the way you express yourself. It‘s really rational. It‘s a shame most KZbin-comments are unlike your comment pure trash. I think only the possibility of one death due to a renewal of the North Ireland conflict makes Brexit not worth it. Just to make sure there is no perfect system but the EU is kilometers away from a dictatorship or anything deeply evil. Let me guess you are studying? In Dublin? Greeting from Germany. Zorry for my bad English.

[@archiebunker4108]

The fantasy stuff is that the EU is beneficial overall and a good return on the investment the UK has been making in terms of its membership fee.

[@letolethe5878]

Those mics look like huge mole on their faces.

[@JogBird]

its not, the elites in power dont want to follow the will of the ppl

[@theagg]

Which 'will of the people' are you referring to ? Taking the population as a whole, are you referring to the 37% of the population who voted Leave, or the 28% who didn't vote at that time ? Or the 'will' of those who voted Remain plus the 'will' of those who didn't vote ( 35% plus that 28%) making for a total 'will' of 63%. And, which 'will' with respect to time are you talking about ? The so called 'will' as it was back then or the 'will' as it is right now ? The 'will' as it is right now is the important one to take into consideration, democractically but it's notable that those banging the 'will of the people' drum the loudest seem not to be interested in what that 'will' might be now. Given that 'wills' can change, why would that be ?

[@Geffo555]

Isn't Mogg one of the elites? And the "People" is all of us, which includes 16 odd million remainers (2016) and a lot of abstainers. Leave voters actually only make up about a third of adults in the UK.

[@seeker5738]

Jogbird. The elites don't even know the 'people 'exist. Its like recently, May said "the government is the servant of the people "L.O..L i nearly pissed down my leg.

[@ScholarOfBabylon]

The main problem with Brexit is the inability of everyday people to disassociate themselves or others from the vote they made, for some reason, it's assumed that if you voted one way or the other that somehow defines who you are as a person.

[@SirAmicVarze]

This was excellent. Instead of talking about surface level claptrap it's nice to see real insights in to the attitudes of the core of the country itself.

[@tubemonks]

There shouldn't be any debate. Brexit means LEAVE without a deal. If the EU want a deal (which they would) let them come to us. Because the government are Remainers it's them who have caused the problems we have today - and that was the intention.

[@ctwofirst6635]

No it doesn't. That is not what the referendum ballot said. That is not want leave campaigners said. Stop with the lies.

[@dudel39]

the uk needs a deal more than the eu. You have no leverage to make the EU "come to you".

[@tubemonks]

@@ctwofirst6635 Oh yes it did pal. 'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?' No mention of any deal was there? Stop with your Remoaners lies.

[@tubemonks]

@@dudel39 No it doesn';t at all. They need us more than we need them. But even if you were right any idiot would know you don't lay all your cards on the table before any negotiations. Except if they want it go in the others favour that is.

[@dudel39]

@@tubemonks oh dear i didnt know some of you brits are still that arrogant. You know it was kind of acceptable when you actually still had an empire. But now that your just a shade of your former self you still cant let go of that mindset. Its not the EU that keeps postponing brexit. Its your government. You couldve left years ago. Your government is so afraid of the economical repercussions of a brexit that they cant agree to anything. Tell me what exactly is it what europe is depending on? Your industry is completely irrelevant at this point, and your only meaningful sector, the financial one, is already fleeing the country, inluding the people who convinced you to leave in the first place.

[@mfoco1]

Moronic TV news producers really need to reconsider holding these interviews outdoors.

[@johnnewbold7539]

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PEOPLES VOTE AND A REFERENDUM? THOUGHT WE HAD A PEOPLES VOTE NEARLY THREE YEARS AGO.

[@Jack-fs2im]

Leave was in both parties manifestos of 2017

[@HeathenGeek]

Jon Snow: "What have you learned about the country you live in?" Will Self: "Racists!" (it took him a while to get there and it was very understated, but that's the gist)

[@vseme1572]

Nice to encounter some insightful dispassionate analysis from these two journalists/commentators rather than the usual rehashing of entrenched positions and the "gotcha, poking holes through every position" interviewing style that many UK journalists are prone to.

[@kaba_me]

Insightful? I have no idea what they are talking about.

[@JerehmiaBoaz]

What Lionel Shriver says is kinda dumb. An American who can't understand how people "can identify with a large bureaucratic organisation"? In other words she doesn't understand her own country with its huge federal bureaucracy and why Americans identify so much with it.

[@mikebarrow157]

@@JerehmiaBoaz Frankly she didn't seem to know much about anything and poor communication skills didn't do her any favours either. Perhaps they just hooked her out of the pub as a filler?

[@andrekoster9708]

@1:43 "I think there's a perfectly good case for leaving the EU" -- If there was, wouldn't we have heard about that in the past two years? Because "take back control" clearly isn't it.

[@tomhulme1176]

Whats wrong with being soverign ? Clearly the majority in the uk want to make decisions without eu law overuling us. Whats the excuse to remain money 🤣

[@andrekoster9708]

@@tomhulme1176 No country is really sovereign anymore in the world today. We all trade with each other, and with trade comes rules. Disputes arise and need to be resolved. Every trade relationship has some form of dispute settlement with a tribunal that makes rulings. Even the WTO. By subscribing to the club, you submit to the rules. Yes, you have the option to leave the club, but it will cost you dearly. Whether it's the WTO or the EU.

[@ctwofirst6635]

@@tomhulme1176 We ARE sovereign. Why do leavers want to remove the sovereignty of our Parliament? We make our own laws and have a lot of influence on laws made by the EU.

[@CaballusKnight]

There's only one reason for leaving the EU and that is immigration. That's why the professor was right. None of these people woke up in the middle of the night thinking: Dammit, I don't feel sovereign anymore, I'm sick of being told what to do by the EU. I'm sick of all these laws from the EU that I cannot name one. We need more trade deals!! Now!! Nope, it was and still is 99% about immigration, and because these people can't be honest with themselves, they had to invent unicorns in Brexit and monsters in the EU.

[@aesopstortoise]

If you think of the options as different directions, rather than matters of right and wrong, either direction can be justified according to your beliefs and feelings. The choice, in part, is made according to different beliefs about the future of nation states. With the EU we have a fledgling superstate, not yet fully formed, within which there is a drive to centralise decision making on the macro scale. So there is the Euro, the project to produce a European army, the alignment between states of laws and regulations, the free movement of people and mass immigration, etc. The Brexit case is that another viable choice is to leave this organisation, take back decision making to our national parliament and courts, and interact with other nation states and supranational organisations in a looser fashion.

[@lotsofcircles]

Not sure what this really added to the debate...

[@maxfriis]

Democracy is not just voting. _Democracy is an open honest conversation where disputes are settled by an equal weight vote if compromise can't be reached._ Unfortunately this seems to be a rare view in the UK. It's all about dictatorship of the majority, voting and winning. No honest conversation leading to learning and movement in positions, seem to be part of your majority rule, that I can't bring myself to call democracy. Of cause everyone should abide by the majority, but being a majority carries responsibility, and non of that seems to be shown. There is absolutely no regard for the fact that you need to live with the people you defeated after you have won. I'm sry - your system is flawed and should be reformed imo.

[@benratcliffe6307]

How do you form government in your country?

[@maxfriis]

@@benratcliffe6307 The government is always a minority government supported by part of the opposition. We have had majority governments, but it's more half a century ago I think. The government then "shops" around in the opposition though primarily in the part that support it if we are talking about short term legislation. It is important for the government to get broad agreements with parts of the opposition though, since we have a variation of "can't bind future parliaments". Formally we have the same rules, but convention varies from the UK. It's important for the government to secure agreements with parts of the opposition, since that is how we make lasting deals and long term planning. Parties are informally bound by compromises after an election unless they campaign on canceling the compromise. A future government simply have to accept lasting deals parts of it's majority support is bound by. If the compromise has to be reopened all the parties that was part of it has to agree on changes. This means my representation has real influence when it's not in government if it is willing to compromise. It also means that Denmark can make much more trustworthy and long term policies and international commitments for that matter. The down side is that everything becomes a bit more muddy and hard to comprehend and laws sometimes tend to have too many special cases to satisfy some minor party that needed to get something they can tell there voters. It can also mean that sometimes (rarely) everyone agree that something need change, but they can't agree on how. On the other hand politicians has a tiny bit more routine in compromising than they seem to have in the UK. We do have one extremely stupid rule in our constitution though. 1/3 of parliament can challenge any law except taxes by forcing a referendum on it. Fortunately no one is stupid enough to have a referendum on something that is not backed by a majority in parliament (the rule has been used exactly once back in the 1970'es). As you see things are different in other countries and maybe mine is a bit extreme seen from a UK perspective. I'm not saying you should have our system, but I think you could pick and chose a few things as inspiration in what I think is a much needed reform.

[@ep4360]

As a Remainer, when I am dragged unwillingly out of the EU, I will be the resentful class, the angry, the ignored, Brexit has divided the nation forever,

[@royblekman8186]

That should be the new slogan for the United Kingdom.

[@Halebopp97]

You should be happy that democracy is going to be ignored and that the establishment is going to keep you in the bureaucratic EU forever, because leaving isn't part of the New World Order agenda, nobody is meant to leave, it's meant to become a single state. You should be happy, rejoice!!

[@bushwhacked7112]

You’ve had 3 years, you could have used the wonderful freedom of movement, you could be sipping Tinto Verano on a beach by now.

[@royblekman8186]

zoreto “new world order” yes its all the big bad world order and the bankers and the globalist. How about you look outside of your window and see that the world is changing. 27 Europian nations that have been at war with eachother for thousands of years, and are now united in the Europian parlement, are they perfect? No but what democratie is perfect?. I see peace on a continent that has seen countless of death for issues that can now be solved by debating and working together. United we Will stand, Divided we Will fall.

[@SimianEncounter]

​@@royblekman8186 Exactly this. Despite it's shortcomings we must acknowledge that the European Union, in a way often implicit to the public, actually represents potentially the most important peace proccess in world history. In the last century Europe staged the two largest and most devestating conflicts in human history, before that, countless wars during the age of empire. And now? 70 years of peace on the continent. There is no doubt in my mind the EU has aided the upholding of that peace, and will continue to do so.

[@carlosandresmunozalatorre4433]

A Country must keep the cultural identity too...because each Country has his own culture and this part of this diversity that there is in the world.... But this has nothing to do with racism and xenophobe, The immigrants have integrated to the British society except for the Muslim community that rejects the British culture and laws and they want to implement their Sharia law.... The Nationalism is not bad.... Being a Nationalism for the interests of your nation but open to the world... Not a Nazism.... Regrettably the people has been confused about these topics.... The people mix racism with those that be Anti-Globalism....One thing is the Globalism about market, cooperativo and trades and a other thing is the Globalism of the Big bankers and their crimes....The Globalist elite promotes the globalism about the World New Order....Control

[@eleanorsmith5264]

Are you trying to tell us you aren't racist? if so you totally failed; it seeps from every word. And when will you realize you have been played by some of the British elite. Racist claptrap is easy, critical thinking not so much, apparently.

[@robertjohnson9565]

@@eleanorsmith5264 Eleanor your decision to skewer Carlos with that hoary old 'racist' epithet sounded lazy and insecure. If you are able to calmly challenge the content of the narrative that you disagree with, then please try to do it that way. If all you do is shout 'racist' then people will suspect that you are neither willing nor able to convey or help teach anybody about the vital wisdom of what you see and feel to be right and a better way to approach life. If Carlos or myself are vile racist people, then your choices are: 1.engage with us, help us see.. 2. shout us down, try to shut us down.

[@eleanorsmith5264]

​@@robertjohnson9565 , I totally agree. It was the end of a long day and my temper got past the best me. I think Carlos is probably a bot on second reading; he manages to clang the gong of several of the insidious conspiracy theories which vulnerable & marginalized communities keep hearing dressed up as reasonable facts. I take your point gladly and will attempt to not snap at the misinformation peddled by those who know no better. Can't promise I'll manage it every time if they wallow in their own arrogance and feelings of superiority as these do tend to trigger my irritation most and I have impaired impulse control : ) Be Well Robert

[@robertjohnson9565]

@@eleanorsmith5264 Credit to you, but you are clearly still angry. And please know that it is OK to not be angry. It is OK to be a person trying to figure out why people are so angry. People were angry at the Dalai Lama recently for saying Europe was “morally responsible” for helping “a refugee really facing danger against their life.. Receive them, help them, educate them ... but ultimately they should develop their own country ... I think Europe belongs to the Europeans.” Do these words make you irritated in any way? Also, feel free to call foul on me, but my energy and support goes to my liberal Muslim friends rather bravely attempting to address the problems of intolerance within their own community... they seem to be suggesting to us that sometimes our impulse to close down this discussion might be as bad as addressing the problem itself in a heavy handed way. But there is a problem. And it should not not be talked about and addressed.

[@sadhappy8860]

Never seen an interview with so many white people

[@johnnyc792]

It’s telling they don’t like being called Traitors

[@psychominded3243]

Truth hurts.

[@peter9162]

May I ask what you see as being a betrayal?

[@johnnyc792]

Peter Gaches you tell me any part of Leaving that said remaining in a Customs Union? The UK legally left the EU on the 29th, May took us out in error! Watch and see.

[@psychominded3243]

@@johnnyc792 they also voted 6-1 to give the decision to the people AND said they would respect the vote.

[@wiseowl239]

David Cameron sparked this fiasco, then ran away .... some prime minister! Still, at least the MPs are having a whale of time, they've never had so much fun. Just wait till it escalates to a general election, then another referendum .... such joy!

[@up4itgal]

Non violent civil disobedience is what is needed...

[@robduncan599]

To what ends ?

[@ctwofirst6635]

You are advocating violence? Well, if that's the only value that comes out of your position, it's worthless. If you act violently, I hope you are arrested and put in gaol for a while.

[@robduncan599]

@@ctwofirst6635 His first 2 words are " non violent " read first before jumping feet first .

[@psychominded3243]

@@ctwofirst6635 are you that thick? Literally read the OP's first 2 words...

[@psychominded3243]

@@ctwofirst6635 what are your feeling on the yellow vests then? Glad Macron brought his own army on his own people?

[@Mekratrig]

Adding my vote, expressed here before, that these interviews should be moved indoors, away from the loud, maddening crowds. Or at least, mute the sound of the backgrond scene way doun. I'm sure the folk being interviewed would find it less distracting.

[@2kool4myskool]

Without an orderly withdrawal from Europe the UK will find itself in chaos. Customs agreements with all member states would need to be written plus a huge number of statutory regulations across all sectors of business needs to be rewritten, it would impede business on both sides. It could lead Britain back to the financial backwater it was in the early 70’s , there are huge risks at stake with a no deal.

[@simonmorgan6934]

Then our paid representative s will have to do their jobs then wow. I'll tell my boss that I'm not going to do as he wishes see how long I last.

[@adtastic1533]

Exactly. I dont get it. Why are people getting so wound up over trading arrangements

[@ben70542]

We could have a simple free trade deal, which the EU offered us a year ago, but amazingly it is the only deal that no one is prepared to consider.

[@sanjosesacroise8457]

ben70542 Irish border issue that’s why.

[@psychominded3243]

@@sanjosesacroise8457 the UK won't put a hard border there, neither will the EU... Funny how neither side brought this up during the referendum campaign, it was the EU after the vote... why is that?

[@ben70542]

Yeah that’s what they say, but the Republic of Ireland has always been included in the UK’s “common travel area” meaning it is treated the same way as the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man regarding passport control. Regarding customs checks brexitcentral.com/eu-cynically-exploiting-irish-border-keep-britain-under-the-thumb/ should set your mind at rest regarding extra customs checks. The U.K. has already said it won’t be conducting any extra checks either at Calais or on the Irish border and France and Ireland appear to be of the same mind.

[@NaiiFluur]

That's why there has to be a confirmatory people's vote because whatever the government or parliament does at the moment at least half of the UK will feel slighted.

[@rohanjacob20]

NaiiFluur that happens with any general election. The losers have to suck it up

[@psychominded3243]

So if leave win again you will then finally accept the result? Like you should be doing now! It will also be a hard Brexit, WTO. You still agree to a second vote?

[@NaiiFluur]

@@psychominded3243 The problem is that the referendum was dumb. The whole issue was reduced to a choice between remain vs leave. "Leave" wasn't defined any further on the ballot paper. I'm sure you all know what you voted for but that doesn't matter. Nobody asked the UK how deep they want their relationship with the EU. You probably bought all this BS about sovereignty but the simple truth is that even the smallest trade deal demands common rules and therefore loss of "sovereignty". So I can understand your hardline stance in perspective of wanting to leave the EU but it's simply not a binary choice.

[@juanitoingles9853]

@@rohanjacob20 However they get another go after 5 years! If this is forever, we have to be absolutely sure that what we do next is in the best interests of the country at large. That's a difficult discussion when so many are entrenched. The demonstration on Friday was UKIP dominated, though not exclusively UKIP supporters (I was there and chatted to quite a few people, I am not speaking from what I saw in the background of this interview or from media reporting), and having Tommy Robinson as a keynote speaker was a big mistake in my view - I doubt whether more than one or two per cent max of the 17.4 million swallow what he spouts. I suspect quite a few in the country at large have changed their view because they are a lot more aware of the issues nearly three years down the road plus they can now see that the Brexit Valhallah promised by Boris and Co is a pipedream. The Brexit reality is something probably hardly anybody is really happy with - something like May's deal, or WTO. Given that, it probably does make sense to ask the electorate again, albeit a different, more focussed question. Drafting the ballot paper will be far from easy but we owe it to ourselves to make the effort. We need to look beyond trite mantras.

[@eleanorsmith5264]

@@psychominded3243 that rhetoric doesn't cut it anymore. the secrets out now. A million showed up for New vote, a few thousand for leave means leave (UKIP voters going by the flags) . Over 6 million signed a petition for revoking article 50. The main reason ppl get apoplectic at the thought of an "undemocratic 2nd vote" is that leave will lose by a larger margin than they won last time. Not allowing ppl to reconsider once the full implications of leaving are fully understood & the lies told debunked, is whats really undemocratic.

[@grahamjames1614]

let's get 2 intelligent people to "debate" a serious subject in an area filled with shouting, sirens and other extraneous noise??????, What a GREAT idea!!!!!!!!!!

[@SkyEcho7]

3:55 to 4.36 👏👏👏👍

[@jayllew]

She says as air raid sirens ring in the background........ 😂

[@royblekman8186]

*blitzkrieg*

[@Geffo555]

@@Daniel-oz5dm. And they're also trying to convince us that we're not divided, and that all "the people" want Brexit. All they have left now is bullshit.

[@monsterlair]

My expectations were subverted.

[@jamesneilsongrahamloveinth1301]

The derangement of the UK political system vis a vis Brexit is exacerbated by the layout of the House of Commons. The chamber is too small. It's like rats in a cage. When the House is full, MPs are packed so closely together that they can barely breathe. The furniture (the green benches) is back-breaking. There is no privacy, no dignity, no individual space. The two main parties are ranged opposite each other for all the world like two football teams - with predictable results. Back-benchers cheer on their champions (notably in PMQs) raucously. The referee (the Speaker) is hamstrung but turns a pretty phrase. Surely it is time to question tradition and find a way physically to expand the chamber. Most legislatures go for some kind of horseshoe configuration - it takes some of the pressure off. Maybe the mooted renovation of the Houses of Parliament will provide an opportunity . . .

[@AG-tj8ew]

Really interesting that Mr Snow, who is so antagonistic towards politicians, especially Tories, in interviews, actually allowed these two authors to speak. It was a much easier interview to listen to, and to hear some arguments on all sides of Brexit and particularly the process, as a result.

[@alftupper9359]

I'm off for a lie down now because I've just caught myself, somewhat disturbingly, nodding in agreement with Will Self.

[@philmcdonald4778]

Every 5 years we have a divisive General Election......should they be scrapped ?

[@Geffo555]

The ins/outs rights/wrongs aside, Brexit has been the most divisive and toxic period in our history since the civil war. And we are certainly not a United Kingdom.

[@peetsnort]

We have a United Kingdom and a United London

[@lewisnoden2200]

Howard Petterson do you not get the news where you are ?

[@peetsnort]

@@lewisnoden2200 The easiest way to see the bias is the vigour of the conversation to defend the remainers by the reporters

[@billsmoke4919]

@@peetsnort Actually you have a United England, and a United London, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Little England is killing Great Britain.

[@peetsnort]

@@billsmoke4919 you have yet to visit Birmingham or Harrow or Slough Forget londonistan

[@tomcolton5662]

This is a London centric concern!! if you get out to the towns & regions people in communities aren't falling out over brexit. It's just another thing Westminster fucked up that we aren't part of. The people can unite around kicking out parliament!!

[@blackhand8299]

With article 13 going on EU, there wouldn't be any debate

[@anthonyburke5677]

Why ? Your debating now!

[@blackhand8299]

@@anthonyburke5677 with the whole article 13 issue, having Brexit gives both "against" and especially the "pro" more reason to support Brexit.

[@anthonyburke5677]

@@blackhand8299 how

[@R0B1NG5]

Who cares. Our own government has just as silly ideas about the internet. Look at the online porn regulations coming up. Thats all homegrown idiocy, with more to come. I wish I could vote to gain some "sovereignty" from the morons in westminster.

[@DominikJuric]

Laws can be changed. You don't have to leave the EU to change a law.

[@folksinger2100]

Wonder if the Yank would support California exiting the USA?

[@starventure]

Black Philip You have no idea how many would be thrilled to have it happen.

[@AnnaMarieKenward]

I would definitely want to go and live there if that happened.

[@starventure]

Anna Marie Kenward A independent California would be economically comprised. Not to mention that the north and inland empire regions would demand separation. State of Jefferson, yes?

[@Patrick-ne6sv]

The country was always divided so I'm sorry but it's beyond my understanding what's the point of forcing any sort of "unity". If people disagree, let them disagree. It's just a normal thing to have different points of view, isn't it? So I can't listen to this "we have to bring the country together" bubble from both Tory and Labour benches. What's concerning is the violence and the abuse the politicians get mainly from the Brexiteers. When it comes to the bubble about "democracy", it could be argued whether the referendum was democratic in terms of what people mean by democracy in the UK. Cause yes, there are different ways of expressing democracy. The one we know - you choose your MPs since they are qualified (or at least should be) to do the right job for the country. Once you don't like your MP you vote for someone else to kick him out. The Swiss model is let's have a referendum on everything. And yeah in Switzerland it works somehow because people are used to it and responsible enough to make very important decisions in referendums. But in the UK that's not the case. The referendum should never have happened. Now the MPs have to face the consequences of their disastrous decision. Now let's follow the logic of "what could be more democratic than a referendum" and let's have a referendum on whether we want to pay any taxes in this country. The result could be NO, we don't want to! Would that be good for the country because people voted for it? Hm... let me think...

[@whoknew2273]

I hear the Circus is town lol

[@eamonnsiocain6454]

How thick can you get? Scotland voted 60% to remain and Northern Ireland voted 56% to remain. The votes that put the final results at just less than 52% came from Wales and England (outside of London.) The UK was already divided on this issue before the votes were counted.

[@giovannidepetris6335]

But is it really necessary to be out there in that ruckus?

[@bobsyeruncle4841]

that woman umm has umm no clue

[@theressomethingonthewing1960]

No shes got a point of view, remainers umm are totally umm delusional and ummleavers are umm totally rational, 🤔 So that's all sorted😮

[@guleiro]

What's the point of instituting the people's will if the people itself is ignorant?... Brexit is the will of the ignorant people.

[@achandler6583]

We voted LEAVE which means Leave there is nothing complecated about that. The MPs are trying there hardest to scupper the voter. And make it complicated WTO. The sentiment of the people is everything. Abraham Lincoln.

[@AeschylusShepherd]

Leave didn't state how. They cannot allow the country to become poorer because of a bad decision 3 years ago. They need a good deal to ensure access to medicine and treatments, food and many other things the U.K. depends upon. It's not so simple. That's the point. We live in an integrated would. You don't understand how the world works. Educate yourself.

[@sanjosesacroise8457]

anthony chandler Do you have any idea about WTO rules. I mean do you really know anything about WTO rules. What it involves, how you trade and the 135 countries that form it. It’s like a bigger European Union. However it takes more than 5-10 years to make a schedule of concessions. The first cut and paste EU schedule was already vetoed by USA/AUS/NZ. Our 8 out of 10 biggest trading partners are European. Yes we will get trade deals but they take years to develop. We have 2 trade negotiators, EU has 27, only 300 in the world. We have to secure the Irish border otherwise other countries veto us. One country in the would trades on WTO Mauritius. This is all true look it up. U.K. isn’t going to go with a USA trade deal in farming, medicines, weary on financial services because of USA business practices on disclosure. Nigel Farage is an ex-banker so he has something up his sleeve. Have a Norway deal than deal with the orderly exit. I rest assure trade deals are time eaters, something we haven’t got. If you have the commonwealth fine but standards are not there, india, Pakistan will demand more visas etc, and that is the starting bloc. Think again but trade prices in some areas will be better, just more than 5-10 years. That is a huge shock to our high value currency economy.

[@psychominded3243]

@@AeschylusShepherd believe it or not, its not only the EU who provide such products... nothing a free trade deal won't sort out...

[@psychominded3243]

@@sanjosesacroise8457 Brexit was mich more than just about trade...

[@Loostyc]

Any king of leave will take at least a decade to sort out. What a waste of time

[@stevenclark6209]

Hate that saying"what the people said" or the people's vote..

[@benbuckley2540]

WE VOTED OUT THE PEOPLE VOTED OUT I just dont think they understand Democracy will be dead our rights have instead an justice from the people will be here Hatread will spread Civil unrest YELLOW VEST AN BURKA OVER HERE

[@benbuckley2540]

Leaving would help if you had a brexiter in charge

[@zcrib3]

The Empire argument comes from the idea of British exceptionalism. People are told what the balance of powers here is and then they just quote the war and the good ol' days.

[@Chris-oz9qx]

zcribe acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/09/16/only-eu-empire-can-secure-liberty-eu-leader Well don’t you just feel foolish

[@peetsnort]

Chanel 4 is bias

[@AnnaMarieKenward]

@@romaaeterna5119 Wow!! For a nun you sure are the most un Christian one ever. Does your Mother Superior know how you behave on social media? How are you even allowed on this site? Sister Nasty is a much better name for you dear.

[@Jack-fs2im]

Only 9% of channel4 come from a working class background as found in their own internal survey.they have promised to change

[@paparobbo62]

Great respect for Jon Snow one of the very few journalists that you can rely on but alas on this occasion is the same as any other. W Self supposedly a Remain supporter tells there is an argument for leaving the EU but typically nobody it seems wants to delve a bit deeper and ask his reasoning for saying this. It almost as if this is a taboo area where no one wants to go. Just like all TV commentators they skirt round this subject and are partly to blame for the ignorance that persists about the EU.

[@thisisbob1001]

I voted remain but majority voted to leave so if we are really democratic we should just leave?

[@psychominded3243]

If only more people were like you!

[@arlmondgcalcutt6562]

Trouble

[@R0B1NG5]

I think honestly, at this point, even if you want brexit, you should want it with a better government. Regardless of opinion, the moment we leave the EU it will be a difficult situation. We have taken certain things for granted that will be removed. We will be a separate trading entity after decades of utilizing the trading block clout against the rest of the world. Its not necessarily the end of the country, but it will be choppy waters at the very least. I would think for such a critical time in the countries history, you would want a top shelf government, firing on all cylinders to navigate such waters with as little damage as possible. Its undeniable at this point, that this is not that government. It just seems rash and emotional to charge into brexit in this state and rush it through regardless of whats happening. Best foot forward for a pivotal moment, because it could go either way. Why give it more odds to go badly?

[@flowerfairy1950]

Got to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

[@R0B1NG5]

@@flowerfairy1950 Egg shells are not required after they are broken open. It would be more apt if it was something related to future progression and ability. Would you be willing to break a few of your legs to make an omelette? Would you not want to avoid that if given a choice?

[@flowerfairy1950]

@@R0B1NG5 The omelette would be delicious and worth a few broken eggs.

[@ongoingness]

She says, while Ukip flags wave in the background

[@domzbu]

UKIP isn’t calling for empire numbskull, just independence from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels

[@XAxscsvcadsvdsvd]

What flag is that in the back with the white bird on a burgundy background?

[@sdrawkcabUK]

Army Parachute Regiment

[@zochbuppet448]

Has the world gone mad. 3 Lepers having a discussion at a circus event with sirens going off.

[@stephensharp3033]

She may not have heard people going on about the Empire but people on the Right who read The Spectator do.

[@leapsplashafrog]

Because of the media setting out to give mixed messages

[@alantracy6757]

Yep let’s give s distraction narrative it’s their fault ... we voted clearly ... we know

[@AlwaysFaxkenCashinHandMate]

Fair play for being able to string a sentence along with all of them cockroaches in the background.

[@RkristinaTay]

Why cannot Great Britain be it's own country? And make it's own laws, make it's own decisions and regulations and declare it's own beliefs democratically? Why do we need the growing Empire that is the EU to handle everything for us? Our politicians will really have nothing to do. They become council workers.

[@joelschueler2852]

Not usually a fan of May’s politics but she’s so fit

[@psychominded3243]

I feel the same about Lisa Nandy!

[@mohsinrao4334]

If only they knew that Brexit would be the least of their worries on Mar 30th 2020.

[@nilreb]

How is it that no one speaks up explaining to that American novelist that rather than passion for a bureaucratic superstate it is appreciation for the longest phase of peace and prosperity this continent has ever lived though. Its bureaucratic nature is a necessary tradeoff that defends the rule of law, the alternative is to be found all over the world...

[@bennyblanco6719]

The largest reason for the phase of peace isn't the EU but rather the invention of the atom bomb and advances in technology making direct conflict between 2 nuclear powers all but obsolete.

[@archiebunker4108]

The EU has not kept the peace. It's a trading block. I think it's absurd to suggest that without it there would have been war in Europe. Besides which, the loser of the two world wars dominates the EU. However, the EU has sown discord and created instability recently by supporting mass immigration from the third world.

[@robertjohnson9565]

I'm offended by your argument that Germany would likely have produced another Hitler like figure, and we would all descend into war again, if it wasn't for the EU. That is hyperbole and plain silly. But I agree, in so much that if the German tendency to dominate the region can be somewhat limited by the EU (as was intended) then that is good, but Germany still dominates within the EU. Inevitably there will be trouble in continental Europe (of some sort..as we have started to see this last few years) so if Britain can finally manage to walk away and not get involved, that would be best. Probably not best for most of Europe, but good for us. With regards to tensions with Russia, the EU has managed to resurrect the old nightmare...moving east and gaining territory just like Gorbachev feared. Europe's role in the middle east/ regime change wars is another question.. The EU is driven by ideology and power, not the need for peace. But the later is good for PR.

[@robertjohnson9565]

@@nilreb The EU is a manifestation into the world of our collective destiny to connect with a higher principle of unity. People who have connected with their higher selves and moved beyond attachments to nation and culture, are naturally more simpatico with the EU project. People who have failed to move beyond the old attachments retain a seed that, sadly, can only yield a poisoned harvest. That is one view. And please consider that the majority of EU skeptics very well understand the power of this feeling that holds sway over (particularly the young) EU enthusiasts. Or, another view is: "The EU is not about peace today, it is about power.” - Tony Blair Do you want to discuss the reality of what propels the EU project, both historically, today, and into the future? I understand the idealism and need for simple answers. But, this is not the language that holds sway among serious people within the EU itself. The argument for retaining EU membership lies elsewhere. Try to follow this up. Europhilia can be a bit like an illness...even very nice people catch it.

[@theressomethingonthewing1960]

Oh its a mic, I thought it was a massive zit

[@doyoumind9356]

You could certainly make fiction out of this. One night on the tele I saw a Labour man fly off the handle because Krishnan Guru Murphy said "At this stage of the game". Then ( same night ) Mark Francois arch Brexiteer was quoting Jesus - Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do. The whole debate needs to simmer down.

[@everready2903]

It's pronounced Lio nel not Lionel.

[@fenderblues1744]

I left Friday 29 March 2019 at @. I'm out, that's it. Over and out.

[@emm_arr]

@Albert Pike Great shitpost!

[@emm_arr]

@Albert Pike I am not poortly educated - correct! Otherwise, a great shitpost!

[@shikb]

I’m not sure why they asked an American writer her opinion about Brexit. I mean people all over the world do have opinions, but I’m not sure why she’s on TV.

[@joeybarnes01]

Intellectual claptrap! It's a matter of democracy. Bigger than Brexit. How is the country to be governed.

[@garyreynolds5733]

Ignorant and unfortunately ungrammatical claptrap... Scared of thinking too much?

[@jamesdavies2456]

Get this bloke of tv

[@diesel92kj1]

Not split it enough.

[@teacheradvicehanoi5444]

Seems like the protesters behind te interview gave a better answer than the interviewees

[@domzbu]

Probably because you didn’t understand what the guests were saying. Engage brain.

[@blackhand8299]

I thought there was a mole on her face...

[@andimcgaw]

Lionel Shriver was wrong the UK didn't survive

[@monty1864]

Snow and self are a national embarrassment

[@FFM0594]

Build a wall at the Watford Gap.

[@simmo1024]

The reason why it is divisive is because in a democracy when you have a democratic vote, the losing side still accepts the result. This has not happened. Instead, the losing side has continued to argue for the opposite, ignoring the expressed will of the electorate. This INEVITABLY leads to resentment and conflict. The winning side feel like the democratic process is broken and that they re being explicitly ignored. This is not good for long term stability. This is all magnified by the hard-left extremists who use divisive tactics explicitly because they want instability so they can sweep in with their Maoist saviours, and supported by a complicit media and political class, they belittle and dismiss the concerns of the majority of the the voting electorate (racist, uneducated gammons the lot of them), furthering the resentment and anger (which, btw, has its seeds in general dissent against the establishment). Where do really think the outcome of this bludegoning of the dissent of the electorate will lead?

[@Loostyc]

This doesn't work with long term things. People can always change their minds, which they have. Carrying on with Brexit, while the majority no longer wants it is not right.

[@simmo1024]

LOL, they have not changed their mind. You are being lied to and manipulated. You rationalise it because it is the result you want. Oh how easy throwing away democracy comes. I wonder what will replace it? Factoid of the day. The electorate made a decision. it was a 'once in a generation' decision and 'what you decide will be implemented', that means we have to actually LEAVE the European Union. There is no debate to be had on the matter. We leave. Your refusal to accept this is what drives the division.

[@Loostyc]

@@simmo1024 Apparently they have when there is a remainer parliament.

[@Loostyc]

@@simmo1024 The referendum is not binding and the question was oversimplified. It is not undemocratic not to follow the referendum and hold another one, more concrete and binding.

[@simmo1024]

@@Loostyc Again incorrect. Both main parties stood on a platform of Brexit in 2017. Keep up.

[@daquidi]

Lionel Shriver saying this with Ukip as a backdrop.... Funny

[@haza123b4]

*No pushback about the ethnic nationalism?*

[@egparis18]

Lionel!? Hmmm.

[@user-tu1df1lf5u]

Brexit has given us a lot of jargon about the UK being 'the country, the nation' etc - when most of the time they are referring to England only. Many people conflate the UK and England as being one and the same. Take Bercow invoking a 1604 rule from an English Parliament which was extinguished in 1707, the UK Government using English Henry VIII powers over Brexit or the English principle of absolute sovereignty of Parliament (something which does not exist in Scottish constitutional law) as examples of this English-centric view of the UK. A far cry from the 'equal partner in a family of nations' mantra which the Tory/Labour 'Better Together' campaign told Scots. The truth is we are not a unitary state. We are a union held together by a bipartite Act of Union between the Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England. The country I am from returned a remain vote in every constituency and support for remain is stronger than ever. I certainly don't live in a country divided on Brexit.

[@domzbu]

Endless numbers of remainers ive seen interviewed bizarrely conflate the EU with the continent of Europe. Half of the Europe’s countries aren’t in the EU. The EU has been around for one-hundredth of the civilised history of the continent, and has mangled its southern economies.

[@Ladynipchick2]

My friends, something has been troubling me for 3 years. How can the will of 17.4 million people be described as ' the will of the people' when UK population is over 66 million. I get that for those who voted - it was indeed 52% v 48% in favour of leave. But 17.4 million CANNOT possibly be said to accurately reflect ' the will of the people', because that still leaves ... well, I'll let you all do the maths. Thanks.

[@UncleDavey]

You would think that siren going off in the background would be annoying, but its not.

[@jimmyturner4909]

yhh could not agree more

[@angusmcangus7914]

Ye Gods! Will Self being reasonable instead of his usual sneering "self".

[@d.abrante3641]

Just leave, and suck it and see: the tunnel of leaving the EU may be absolutely pitch dark or there may be a shining light at the end of it after all.

[@juanitoingles9853]

Let's ask the public whether they are happy to take that risk! You say 'it may be absolutely pitch dark' so glibly as if it were a bit of a lark, not central to the economic and political future of the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world!! I am sick to the stomach about how this might turn out and, if people are honest, I suspect many millions of my compatriots feel the same.

if you are fine with unified taxes coming down the line being written by increasingly unaccountable politicians thats fine . If you want possibility of your children being conscripted into eu army years to come thats fine . If you want the Marrakesh agreement which big coorps have lobbied for driving down the working wage thats fine .

[@popculture70]

Conscripted? Are you nuts? Joining a volunteer EU army, sounds great. That's well paid jobs for people who want them. I'd be up for that as well as thousands of young people in Europe.

[@popculture70]

@ The European Union has at its heart the court of human rights. There's no other political entity like it in the world. Conscription in such a system is impossible except under the most extreme circumstances. Firstly, all member states would have to agree to it. If the situation were that extreme, people like me would volunteer for it anyway. The same goes for unified taxes. Everyone would have to agree. If the UK were still part of the EU, it wouldn't happen. Just uninformed gurgling from you.

@@popculture70 by everyone do you mean EVERYONE or the representatives on the Brussels payroll ? hmmmmmm Big Business loves Brussels. Here buy these beans they'll grow into money trees.

[@etg1552]

If a truly democratic society cannot grasp that it is not about being patriotic or belonging to a particular nationality then there will never be a positive solution. Those who want dominance and rulership cannot grasp that that kind of attitude is self-destructive. People wake up!

[@etg1552]

@Albert Pike Funny! If you are a corrupted judge you certainly can do it. I think we never lived in a democracy. There are democratic tribes in this world, but there is no democratic country. There are people able to live in a democracy right now, but blinded majority takes everybody to destruction. As long as there are rulers there is no democracy, while leadership has been constantly misunderstood.

[@etg1552]

@Albert Pike Oh, Albert Pike :) I do not need to read your books. Books are for the disabled ones, especially books on politics. If someone wants to be above everybody else that one cannot be socially disabled, right? And if one is socially disabled that one wants to destroy society not to prove that the one is like a god, but to destroy all witnesses that could prove that one definitely is not. Self-destruction!

[@bushwhacked7112]

Will Self looks like death warmed up.

[@psychominded3243]

Just like Blair

[@Moxxies1]

i voted remain for the simple reason i didn't trust the Tories with the country post Brexit and if Labour had been in power during the referendum i would of voted Leave and i've spoken to many Labour supporters who chose to remain for the exact same reason as myself .

[@shlibbermacshlibber4106]

Oh wait, she's talking abou the other leavers, the ones who don't exist

[@pgtips4240]

It's not Brexit that is divisive, it's the people who have refused to accept and fought against the result that have been divisive.

[@patrickokeeffe539]

Till Brexiteers give the Brexit promised. Which will not happen, so this will go on and on. In the end money will talk.

[@bobrobertson9547]

Good to see people protesting outside parliament. It's the end of traditional politics in the UK. New parties, new thinking, new principals, a dismantling I'd the quangos and above all young intelligent people as mp's instead of upper class dinosaurs. It's the beginning of the end of UK politics. It had to happen as the elderly died off.