DEBATE: Should Christians accept the Protestant Old Testament canon?

[@probaskinnyman4960]

Bro trent how many debates are u going to attend?!? I’m really impressed by your work ethic. God is truly blessing u greatly and I hope to see all Christians are being blessed by your ministry!

[@Grantthecatholic]

Indeed hardest worker out there defending the faith! Thanks be to God for Trent! Let us all take up our cross each day and do what we can to defend the faith!

[@probaskinnyman4960]

@@Grantthecatholic Amen!!

[@probaskinnyman4960]

@YAJUN YUAN Precisely why I truly admire Trent’s passion to defend our Lord!

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@SantiagoAaronGarcia]

Former protestant, the canon was one of the things that changed my mind on catholicism. Trent is a beast

[@frankjamesiii5362]

@@coachp12b Amen to that

[@awesomeoperators2796]

@@coachp12b You do realize the Catholic church had the bible black listed for years. It was deadly to even be caught with any of the sacred texts. Look it up. It's part of history. I am not seventh day adventists ether.

[@coachp12b]

@@awesomeoperators2796 🤦🏻‍♂️🤣 Been reading the Huffington Post lately?🤣 I suppose you are referring to restrictions on possession and translation of the Bible. You’re trying to make it sound like that was bad. Once those who left the Church began translating and interpreting outside the Church’s Authority the result was inevitable. If only those restrictions had lasted, we wouldn’t have to suffer the thousands of denominations and all their various contradicting doctrines we have today. And the result is that we now have the American religion of Secular Humanism that naturally flows from the removal of all authority except the self.

[@lyterman]

@YAJUN YUAN I don't really want to argue over this, but can I get your reference for this? I've seen you say this multiple times, so I'd like to see where you're getting it.

[@lyterman]

@YAJUN YUAN Just a list of names of church fathers would be great.

[@JudeMichaelPeterson]

Member of the Anglican Ordinariate here. Love the shout out from Trent. The second worst part of being a member of the Anglican Ordinariate is having to constantly explain that I am, in fact, actually Catholic and not Anglo-Catholic or something like that. We need more awareness lol

[@Francisco_Figue]

30:14 Thank you Trent! My same question when I was hearing Jonathan's opening, and not only him, many Protestant debaters who pick Catholic Saints (such as Jerome, Augustine and others) opinions on things that seemingly agree with part of what they are talking about, but those same Protestants disagree with such Saints on the vast majority of their writings, on doctrines such as Mary's perpetual Virginity, the Eucharist, Faith and works in cooperation with grace, on Salvation, on the Church, etc. So doesn't seem kind of honest, or congruent when they are presenting their case by quoting those Catholic Saints.

[@jon6car]

@Pax Domini That's not at all what transubstantiation means. The accidents of the bread and the wine remain but the "substance" is what is transformed. What you're describing sounds more like transelementation.

[@314god-pispeaksjesusislord]

Protestants are not using authority in the way Catholics do, they are using apologetic authority in the sense that the earlier we can go to the time the apostles lived the more authority the opinion has. Jerome Augustine et al are using that same criteria to reach back to the Apostolic age to say neither the Jews nor the Jewish apostles objected to these texts in general as materially sufficient to affirm the definition and recognition of messiah as the centerpiece. The other books may give additional information but don't focus on that rule or canon.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

the same question arises for Orthodox and Catholics. No one agrees with the fathers on everything. they arent infallible, but they're useful subordinate authorities, historical datapoints and examples of living

[@nathankimball5380]

Wish more debates would be as respectful and organized as this

[@user-wj4mc9sp8f]

It seems to me that the Protestant view regarding the canon, as presented here, is that the Old Testament canon must be defined by Jewish rabbis. It seems clear that such a consensus was not extant. It seems to me, also, that the Catholic view of the matter is centered around the idea that God, through his Holy Spirit, defined scripture Canon. The Church holds that the Holy Spirit directed this canon in the Councils held to establish it. The Protestant view seems based on Protestantism. That is, there can be no church authority, therefore the Church’s establishment of the Canon cannot be correct. After this view is secured, the proof of its claim must be constructed through the interpretation of events past and enhanced through imagination. Historically, the Canon of Holy Scripture was defined in Council, under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Of course, this suggests one believes that the Holy Spirit actually works in His Church.

[@mynameis......23]

The Jewish Canon was sealed 100-150 years BC. And the apocrypha came way after that. Jesus quoted the canon multiple times it was the Jewish Canon which the Christians use and catholics reject.

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@brendansheehan6180]

Why would you ask the Jewish people who deny Christ as the Messiah to define the Old Testament?

[@OrthoLou]

Exactly. If THAT'S the best argument they have..

[@ntmn8444]

Well you can, and they do. Their basis for what constitutes the Old Testament is basically what’s in Hebrew. The Bible we as Catholics use is translated from the oldest manuscripts available, but those are Greek. For Jerusalem (when there was a Sanhedrin), Torah and the Haftorah need to be in Hebrew. A lot of the books we have in our Bible are not in their Tanakh and it’s really only because they’re not in Hebrew. This is the explanation I’ve been given by reputable rabbis on the matter, and it makes sense that Paul WOULD quote the Tanakh in Hebrew-he was a Talmudic scholar! But to be honest, I think Catholics did a good job preserving the Bible. This was the Bible that Jews outside of Jerusalem studied and read.

[@TheEpicProOfMinecraf]

These two are unrelated ideas. Further... doesn't Paul tell us to not be arrogant in regards to the Jews?

[@brendansheehan6180]

@@ntmn8444 I'm just thinking that there were many many documents written during that period that were considered religious texts. It was the interpretation of those texts that gave the Jewish scholars of that age a false impression of what the Messiah would have to be like-- that was their warrant for denying Christ. So, why would you want to use there determination on those texts for your Bible that supports the New Testament?

[@brendansheehan6180]

@@TheEpicProOfMinecraf Why would that mean we should follow their cannon?

[@leonardobarbieri1292]

Sheffield's error is to think Rabbinism has anything to do with ancient Judaism other than blood lineage.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

And barely even that!

[@jonw881]

I find the case for the longer canon more epistemologically and historically satisfying, but I found this debate incredibly pleasant to listen to on both sides. We can engage in historic and literary debate about the details, but the criterion for the canon itself begs the question. As far as I see it, even if the Jews exclusively used the shorter canon prior to Christ, what reason would that give us to prefer that rule as opposed to the one given to us by the Church?

[@jonw881]

@YAJUN YUAN Where do you get that rule? Still seems self defeating. The canon of scripture is not delimited by the confines of the Old Covenant. The Deuterocanon is critical for the Church's teaching on the Old Covenant, therefore, as the covenant people of God and new Israel, the Church has the authority to determine what texts to include in the canon.

[@virgopotens226]

@@jonw881 that’s a great answer

[@19e-k2m]

Why would you add the the Old Testament Jesus had, quoted from and stated was the word of God?

[@19e-k2m]

@@jonw881 The “Church” doesn’t have authority over God. Let me ask you a question, what is the key to the kingdom of heaven?

[@simonchevalier4289]

Stunning job Trent. The Church has become the people of God, and Her Magisterium, garunteed by Christ, alone is the Authority.

[@chase6579]

I don't really understand why we should care what post Christ Jews have to say about Canon.

[@imonpluto2447]

Thanks for all the hard work Trent, you're a beast!

[@BornAgainRN]

2:24:25 Thanks for the plug for my book Trent. Greatly appreciate it! :)

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@aaronporter731]

@@mynameis......23 Wow i can't even begin to go over how misguided your understanding is, its obvious in every section of your "debunk" that you are completely ignorant to the rationale of Catholic teaching, extraordinary shallow remarks and lack of depth behind every argument. do yourself a favor and spend some time actually figuring out what the church teaches and why instead of regurgitating everything pastor mark says at bible camp.

[@Jerome616]

He’s actually achieved Padre Pio’s level of metaphysical power and can now appear in multiple places at once.

[@anthonytan7134]

Very organized and structured debate, fair moderator, kudos to all 3 of you guys. Gbu

[@dynamic9016]

Really appreciate this debate.

[@_thomase]

One of the many things I never really understood about the Jews closing the canon of Scripture is that if they believe(d) Jesus wasn't the Messiah, why would they close the books? Wouldn't they wait for the Messiah before closing up Scripture? The Samaritans, Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes were still having disagreements about the canon.

[@kwphillyzkp2]

the messaih was never supposed to be related to god or as powerful as god or be god. The messiah was supposed to be 'blessed' by god like noah, like moses, like daniel etc and would not be god but pure human blessed by god to do specific things none of which 'catholic jesus ' did

[@OrthoLou]

@@kwphillyzkp2 nope, that was just a shallow, worldly, and self centered interpretation of it that your ancestors had. They wanted a war lord to give them a physical kingdom, and it blinded them when the messiah was right in front of their faces, doing the things scripture said He would do.

[@ntmn8444]

They also believe God stopped talking to them after Malachi. That’s the thing that made me turn from Judaism to Catholicism. If you say he’s not the messiah, why then WOULD God stop talking to you after Malachi? He would still be talking to us through prophets if Jesus weren’t the messiah. And furthermore, you believe there will be a new temple. But then why hasn’t there been a temple on the mount for over 2k years? Why is there no Sanhedrin? You need a Sanhedrin to build the temple, or so many rabbis assert. To me it just seems like they’re stuck in a loop. They can’t have the Temple Mount bc no Sanhedrin but they don’t have a Sanhedrin bc there is no temple on the Temple Mount. There are quite honestly so many things they got me thinking about as a believer in Christ, and then there were other things that I’m just like “dude, you’re tripping”.

[@_thomase]

@@ntmn8444 I had read several discussions that the Jews in Israel are putting together plans for the Third Temple. I can try to find the links again. But if it is true, we are closer to the the end prophesies than we might think. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpnPXpxrgcerppI&ab_channel=CBNNews kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXXGn5airdV_fMk&ab_channel=ChristianHomestead kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIKoe5aprq5ji9U&ab_channel=TerriBuckingham

[@WickedFelina]

@@ntmn8444 I remember as a child debating this very point. I was no older than 8. It was so blatantly obvious Jesus was the Messiah. No more prophets AND the temple was destroyed which means NO MORE temple sacrifices. "Bring me no more vain offerings! I do not delight in the blood of animals!" In which Jesus replied "I will go down. I will be the last sacrifice!"

[@canibezeroun1988]

I finally understand the Catholic position. I was never an anti Catholic, but I have been seeking common ground for a project I'm going to do next year.

[@FlexCathedrafromIG]

Great to hear. Hope you can keep everyone here updated when its done :)

[@canibezeroun1988]

@YAJUN YUAN probably needs to be plural. Just keep watching here.

[@specialteams28]

No one but Satan is anti-Catholic. People however are opposed to false understandings of what the Catholic church actually is. The lies about Catholicism is Satan’s crowning achievement in misleading souls away from heaven.

[@essafats5728]

@YAJUN YUAN ur just like Trent Horn - ur in full time ministry except paid by the 7th day Adventist to refute Catholicism in it's entirety.

[@essafats5728]

@YAJUN YUAN ur sda church don't fully appreciate ur proselytizing efforts

[@glof2553]

Quality debate but Trent, please refrain from doing any events with Canadian Catholic in the future.

[@stcolreplover]

Why?

[@Mkvine]

@@stcolreplover The jury is out, CC preys on women writing vile and sometimes blasphemous perverse things. Not the type of guy you want to associate with for apologetics and evangelization type of work.

[@justsomevids4541]

@@Mkvine yikes. Could u provide a link or something to show this? I believe you but I'd like to see it for myself too

[@Mkvine]

@@justsomevids4541 I’ve tried many times to reply but my comments won’t show up. I don’t know if certain key words triggers the algorithm to hide my comments. Super weird

[@Mkvine]

@@justsomevids4541 go to Sam Shamoun’s community section for more info. Hopefully this comment won’t get hidden.

[@nofragmentado]

It is true, is not who win or loose. But to show what the catholic doctrine is been teaching and what Protestant teaches, leaving the audience to use our intelligent brain asking the Holly Spirit to guid us and do what it is truth and right to our Faith 🙏🏻📿

[@anonimo-um2ng]

Truth must prevail and the Pillar and the bullwark of the Truth is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15). Individual conscience is not the supreme authority for the christian according to the New Testament and Jesus gave the power to bind and to loose to Peter and to the apostles not to the individual christian. That is the typical protestant recipe for doctrinal division. And then let the Holy Spirit to lead us to one of the over one hundred protestant denominations which contradict each other on important doctrinal issues: Did Jesus die for every person or only for a few? Can salvation be lost or not?.

[@delbert372]

If the Jews determine what is Scripture, do we jettison the New Testament?

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@YAJUN YUAN That's utterly arbitrary. Marcionist even.

[@tryingnottobeasmartass757]

@YAJUN YUAN, where does the Bible say who determines the Bible, let alone who determines what part of the Bible?

[@mfjh505]

All three judges scored the bout 118-108 and the winner by unanimous decision the defending heavyweight Catholic Apologist Trenttttt Horrrrrrrrrrrrrn!

[@Mkvine]

I concur with the comment that was deleted. Trent please reconsider doing work with Canadian Catholic. He’s been caught preying on women and saying vile, perverse and blasphemous things. This can be verified so it’s not slander.

[@TheBiblicist]

@YAJUN YUAN He is not even a baptized Catholic to begin with. He is or was still a Cathecumen.

[@duals-growthofculture2085]

That moment Trent asked him about the Anglican Bishop saying the deuterocanon is "part of the Holy Bible" and then Jonathan saying that isn't what he was saying...OOF! The cognitive dissonance on display there was crushing.

[@t.d6379]

Timestamp mannnn

[@ace3444]

1:27:18

[@mr.fahrenheit8185]

Trent was so confident. Im guessing he’s being guided by the Holy Spirit. I luv the debate. 🙏🏼 go dubs!

[@thedomesticmonk772]

I would not want to be a Protestant going up against Trent. It’s almost sad listening to them grope for any authority other than Christ’s Church to support their theology.

[@jon6car]

Yeah. You know you're not doing well when one resorts to arguments from silence and straight up changing the topic like he at about the 1:00:00 mark

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.. . . . .. . . . . ✝️✝️

[@thedomesticmonk772]

@@mynameis......23 twisting scripture to accommodate your own views is just self deception. Scripture is a product of the Catholic Church, any interpretation that conflicts with it’s teaching is wrong. Jesus did not give you authority to teach and preach in his name, he gave it to the Apostles, who in turn gave it to their successors down through the ages. The Pope and the Bishop’s are the guardians of the deposit of the faith. They have Christs authority and his promise to be with them until the end of the age. All you have is your own opinion. Pride versus humility. The proud follow their own selfish passions, the humble follow Christ.

[@JudeMichaelPeterson]

2:12:00 ish Amusing that one of Sheffield's arguments is that we cannot just look at one witness source for our canon but also have to include others, he then lists Jews, and various Eastern Christian sects. What's amusing is that the majority of the sects he mentioned all accept the deuterocanon and if their canon differs from Catholics then it's larger, not shorter. Jews were the one exception to that, but even that depends on the sect of Jews since many Jews do accept the deuterocanon and even more. Just looking at the number of Christians in the world and the vast majority of Christians and major Christian sects do accept the deuterocanon, so this argument he uses completely flies in his face.

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@declansceltic198]

@@mynameis......23 You seem upset, is it because you're stressed from interpreting the Bible all by yourself? What if you're wrong?

[@relentlessrhythm2774]

I need to listen to these debates more often to learn to defend my faith with more confidence.

[@asuncioncarrizales4199]

I’m not Catholic, but Trent won this debate.

[@jacob5283]

Jonathan saying Augustine uses "a post-modern narrative" is absurdly anachronistic, and it reveals that modernism and post-modernism are the only two perspectives he's familiar with. This will cause him to misinterpret everything before the modern era.

[@alpha4IV]

Trent you did a good job throughout this debate but I feel that Shelffeld lost the plot about halfway through the debate.

[@paul_321]

Okay, so I’m not the only one that noticed

[@DanUtley]

My general feeling of his entire position was “Heads I win, tails you lose.”

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.. . . .

[@alpha4IV]

@@mynameis......23 Um, dude. Don’t take this approach. I have videos, long before Trent Horn did it were I am “debunking” Mike Winger & counterpointing Holdsworth. And I sound like such a jerk & a tool doing what you are attempting here. These are not good arguments. Some of them might be strong points but most of them are easily countered. More to the point, I spend a lot of my time online speaking with atheist and muslims. I’m friends with them irl, they have me on their channels, they call me when they need a Catholic or Christian take on something. I can tell you that this approach wont only not be effective to appeal to a Catholic but it will turn off Atheists and Muslims as well. & I get it, after reading the Church fathers I felt like I was ready for prime time, instead I lost more than half my audience pointing out correctly the wrongs done by Catholics & Christians to Jewish people during the Reconquesta & Inquisition. Your gishgalop of out of context bible quotes is not good apologetics nor effective polemics.

[@joshanderson8566]

Flat out no! Based on who's authority? The early reformers couldn't even decide on which whole books and parts of other books should be accepted. Skip the debate and go read "The Catholic Controversy," by St. Francis de Sales. I'm done playing footsie with Protestants and their relativism theology and Anarchy ecclesology. Also, check out Paleocratdiaries.

[@ravesp35]

You should flesh this material sufficiency vs partum partum discussion out with @Reason and Theology That has been a discussion I have been waiting to hear between you and Michael Lofton for quite awhile now.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@YAJUN YUAN You don't even understand what you're parroting.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@YAJUN YUAN Who claims that?

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@YAJUN YUAN Formally the issue isn't disjunctive, both views are orthodox. More importantly, you're taking a sufficiency to an obtuse conclusion. Nobody except for protestants believes you can extract the biblical canon from the Bible alone, that's absurd on it's face.

[@jeremyluce4354]

Great debate! But I would suggest that both Jonathan and Trent look into Canadian Catholic’s actions, both online and offline, as it appears he is not the kind of person that serious scholars should be interacting with.

[@jeremyluce4354]

@YAJUN YUAN It appears that he has deleted his channel so it might not matter either way

[@milkeywilkie]

why?

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Indeed, we know some Jews at the time accepted the deuterocanonical books and some disputed other books

[@wanderingthedesert5599]

Trent! Trent! This is of paramount importance! When you said that you accept nothing past Return of the Jedi, do you mean this in the chronological sense of when each movie takes place (meaning you accept Episodes I through VI).... or in the sense of which films were released (meaning you only accept Episodes IV through VI)? On a related note, I'm very curious about Jonathan's point regarding the various canons in the Eastern Orthodox Churches and how things would be reconciled should they be reunified corporately with Rome. Different Churches have different books, such as the Copts using 1 Enoch I believe.

[@OrthoLou]

I would hope he isn't a Jedivecantist like Taylor Marshall lol (meaning only accepting the original editions of Eps IV-VI). Me personally, I'm a George Lucas canon guy; ROTJ is the true end of the saga. But I'm willing to accept Solo and Rogue One as apocryphal works. :P

[@wanderingthedesert5599]

@@OrthoLou with VII, VIII, and IX being the Heretical Films. I have multiple canons that range from the George Lucas film canon which should be extended to include everything pre-Disney acquisition; the pre-TPM canon which essentially is OT films, pre-special edition, and alot of the EU that came out until May of 1999; Selective Disney canon (the Sequel era is a mess and other stuff I haven't watched because of Disney's not-so-secret agendas), X-wing microcontinuity (I'm talking about the games from 1993-1999).

[@tylere.8436]

It's funny how Star Wars fans talking canon overlaps to ecclestiastical canon. I'm more of Strictly the 6 films, the Clone Wars series (dubious on the Disney addition) and Rogue One. The Deuterocanon in question would be the Prequels and Rogue One. The sequels and all other Disney creations outright heretical.

[@judesangma3583]

Jonathan dig deep....you will be "Rome Sweet Home"....God bless you

[@JudeMichaelPeterson]

Re: The Jews are the appointed witnesses argument. Who does he think wrote the Septuagint? It was the Jews. And the Jews also wrote the deuterocanon. So how does this argument do anything to prove or disprove the protestant canon? It does nothing. Many Jews spoke and wrote in Greek in the latter half of the age of the Mosaic Covenant, so there is no reason they could not write scriptures in that language as well.

[@JLeppert]

Hey trent, really appreciate you. 1) What I find fascinating about the denile of the Septuagint, and the "long Old testament," is that the mindset of the ancient Church is summarized in the book of Wisdom. The first chapter of Romans is a summary of the Wisdom of Solomon. Anyone that says Paul wasn't influenced by the "long Old testament" is not paying attention. I don't want to call them liars, because I don't want to give intention that might not be there. It could just be ignorance. But truly, anyone who denies the influence of the Septuagint in Pauline writing is not correct. 2) the argument that says Christianity was under persecution therefore they could not be held reliable enough to determine the old testament cannon, is a Bart ertman level, critical theory question AGAINST the bible. This is not something that should be said, or thought about, or proposed by someone who says "the Bible alone." I'm in Eastern Orthodox convert from protestantism. My father is a Protestant minister to this day. If he heard this loser make that statement, he'd lose his mind. How do people, specifically protestants, not realize that in their zeal to defend a presupposition based on feelings and not history or fact, they destroy the very thing they're trying to protect. If the persecution was so bad that the church couldn't be held reliable enough to determine the old testament, how did they determine the new testament? 3) when faced with quotes and history, this Protestant dude resorts to emotion-based argumentation. He doesn't like it, therefore it's not true. The Sadducees / Josephus argument about how Josephus wasn't clear enough to say they didn't accept the prophets, is dumb, and I didn't even hear that nonsense in Protestant Seminary. How about Jesus never quoted the prophets when he talked to the sadducees? All he quoted was the pentateuch. This guy is filled with Logismoi/Prelest and is destroying the very book he claims to be his sole authority. 4) did this dude literally say that the 1611 kjv didn't actually think the long form old testament was scripture? Did he equate it to Jude quoting enoch? This is intellectual dishonesty. This debate started out great. The first hour was okay. But this guy to fall into a liar and someone that destroys the very book he claims to respect. I am so glad I got out of protestantism. 5) one of the guys on the EOS side, would have been making fun of this dude. I don't watch his debates anymore, as the making fun doesn't actually achieve anything. Thanks for staying calm and loving with this guy. I don't debate anybody at the moment because I would have been raging at this dude. Absolute intellectual dishonesty. Spiritual dishonesty. And gnostic/demonic in his approach to the scriptures. Trent, you are a stud. Now, join the Orthodox Church. Love you!

[@robertopacheco2997]

I just frankly don't get the point of these debates on the OT canon (unless the debaters are getting paid). If the Bible alone is for Protestants of all stripes the sole rule of faith, then surely Scripture alone should tell us what alone is Scripture. In the close to 8,000 NT verses, surely at least one plainly states that the Bible contains 66 and only 66 books from Genesis to Revelation. 2 Tim. 3:16 merely begs the question what is Scripture, and the context makes plain that the OT in question there is in fact the LXX.

[@Dorfapoligetik]

Protestant: "rabbinic Judaism is my Authority....not the church of Christus... my Authority are Jesus deniers..." The Apostle have teaches: 1 Timothy 3,15 "But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth." This church has decided which books/writings are sacred scriptures. Everybody that questions this is Questioning Jesus Christus means he is Heretic. Who gave Luther the authority to change the Scripture? nobody.

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@seraph4124]

Quick note “She shall crush his head” is not by Jerome. No one knows when that was added but Jeromes original old vulgate does not have “she”

[@CesarSanchez-ey5tj]

i didn't know this, source?

[@soteriology400]

We know the apocrypha books are history, but how do you know they are inspired Trent?

[@BeastofBrooklyn]

The Septuagint is the evidence. How is that so hard to understand?

[@soteriology400]

@@BeastofBrooklyn Translating it to Greek does not mean it is inspired. It is simply a translation.

[@noelyanes2455]

Because the Pope ratified it

[@halleylujah247]

Yea, Trent maybe don't promote this person until more information about the controversy he is accused of is solved. Not saying he is guilty but also don't want you to cause scandal.

[@TheBiblicist]

@YAJUN YUAN Its a long story but yeah the Community page of my channel or the Community page of CHristian B Wagner (Militant Thomist) would shed some light.

[@TheBiblicist]

@YAJUN YUAN And also some other Catholic apologists like Allan Ruhl, William Albrecht, and Dr Robert Sungenis have already distanced themselves from Canadian "Catholic".

[@TheCounselofTrent]

A number of people have contacted me about this so I will be reviewing the matter before I decide to do anything with Canadian Catholic again.

[@halleylujah247]

@@TheCounselofTrent thank you for letting me know. You did not have to do I appreciate it. I did not want to slander him but I also wanted you to know and can't contact you privately.

[@BornAgainRN]

@@TheCounselofTrent I will be interviewing Jonathan Sheffield on my channel this Wednesday June 15 at 8pm EST on your debate with him on the canon. kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4OtY6iDpJehe5Y

[@gareginasatryan6761]

AFAIK, the first mention of a Jewish canon is by Josephus, who lived after the completion of the NT

[@lenormand4967]

And the earliest extant copy of Josephus' writing dates to the 18th century AD.

[@jonathanbohl]

Thanks!

[@BornAgainRN]

40:00 Trent, after our last two debates, on the canon and Marian dogmas, you had critiqued me that during our debates I was engaging in what you called a Gish Gallup. But listening to you during this debate, no offense but you’re doing the same thing. In fact even in our debates you engaged in Gish Gallup, especially during our debate on the old testament canon, because I wasn’t able to cover all of your comments and rebuttals during my seven and four minute rebuttals. I actually ran out of time, because you had so many arguments that could not be addressed in the time limit. Just so you know, Jonathan and I are planning on having our own post debate discussion and address some of your own arguments, which I even addressed during our previous debate on the canon. I’m just letting you know, in case you want to listen to it, since you had your own post debate discussion with Gary, William, and David, which I listened to it in its entirety. I plan on posting our discussion on social media. I just thought you should know, since we will be mentioning you and your debate with Jonathan. Blessings, Steve.

[@jon6car]

Where did he Gish Gallop? Jonathan switched subjects at about 1:00:00 mark and on multiple occasions resorted to arguments from silence and some of his questions were begging the question. Also if he accepts what Jerome has to say as a witness to history then why deny the perpetual Virginity of Mary. In his work against Helvidius he claims the historical position and lists those who held that view though we don't have access to those particular works anymore.

[@BornAgainRN]

@@jon6car my point was that accusing someone of committing a Gish Gallop is a bit subjective, and usually used when one cannot attack their opponent's actual arguments, so they accuse them of bringing up so many questions that they cannot possibly answer them. Trent did no different with Jonathan than I did when I had debates with Trent. Just because Jerome was right about the canon it does not follow that he necessarily right about the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is a non-sequitur. And if he held the "historical view," then that would include Jesus' brothers being either younger half-siblings or older step-brothers from an (alleged) previous marriage of Joseph, not Jerome's "cousin theory." Plus, Jonathan is sola scriptura not sola ecclesia. His authority is Scripture, not "Sacred Tradition," so there would be no reason for Jonathan to believe "everything" that Jerome believed. Catholics don't even do that when they cite ECFs, including Jerome. Why would he? Plus, I could turn it around you: if you accept Jerome's belief in the PVM, why don't you also accept his smaller canon? Do you see why that argument fails?

[@jon6car]

@@BornAgainRN It's a bit subjective sure but when in your opinion during this debate does Trent do that? You accused him of doing it so I'm sure you could at least point to where he committed that fallacy in your opinion. You really couldn't turn that around on me though. Despite his personal beliefs what did Jerome ultimately do?

[@mikeyangel1067]

All I know, and Trent will agree, that behind Trent and any other man of the Word is a great woman. 😅 “Give praise and honor to whom honor is due!”

[@zeloraz8101]

1:18:28 What a cope Jonathan fumbled bad here.

[@jonathanhnosko7563]

I thought this was a great discussion. As a finally settled Protestant after over a decade of diving into the Church Fathers, here are my brief thoughts and what helped me. First, I think there is an understandable, but undue emphasis by Jonathan on later Hebrew/Rabbinical sources and by Trent on earlier Greek/Septuagint sources. Here Cyril of Jerusalem and Irenaeus, some of the earliest witnesses to the origins and strongest supporters of the inspiration of the Septuagint, offer some spectacular clarity! First, Cyril limits his definition of the Divine Scriptures of the Old Testament as translated by the 72 interpreters (i.e. the Septuagint) to 22 books (equivalent to the “Protestant” version with Lamentations, Baruch, and the Letter as part of Jeremiah). One may endorse a translation without endorsing the entire collection. Second, any books outside these and read openly in the Churches (e.g. the Deuteros) are permissible but set aside as secondary in rank while any not so read are not allowed even for private reading and termed apocryphal. This is the historical “Protestant” view of the Deuteros with one exception, our misuse of the term apocryphal. Third, in his massive work Against Heresies, in which he upholds the adequacy of the Septuagint, Irenaeus nowhere cites a uniquely deuterocanonical work. He does refer to Susanna and Bel and the Dragon as Daniel and Baruch as Jeremiah, but this amounts to minor ambiguity in the contents of Protocanonical works. It is an odd silence. So, there is a solid, patristic tradition of categorizing the relationship of various texts to the church as either Divine, Readable, meaning worthy/able to be read, but secondary in rank, and Apocryphal, meaning those not able to be read. To Jonathan’s point, there was no doubt in the early church which 22 books belonged to the first category. So, the reason we should hold to these books like no others is that they are the highest example of Vincent of Lerins famous admonition that we, the Church catholic, hold to that which has been believed “everywhere, always, by all.”

[@meganschneider28]

Modern Protestantism is perhaps an interesting illustration for the argument that the Jews of the rabbinic peroid, while divided on many topics, could converge on one canon.

[@jonphinguyen]

No

[@crekow]

Did Sheffield actually say "the Secludians"?? (6:50). That's a rather novel day to refer to the Seleucid Dynasty.

[@yancy3987]

this protestant must have forgotten that Saint Augustine is our SAINT..wake up...

[@timgregson5533]

I'm with you on your Star Wars stance, Trent!

[@ajamusic7322]

I accept Clone Wars, Rogue One, Rebels, Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett as DeuteroCanonical. Solo I'd consider the "Enoch" of Apocrypha. The Sequel Trilogy is just heresy.

[@swoosh1mil]

@@ajamusic7322 I haven't watched the debate yet. But 'canons' are not up to individuals. One must learn to ascent to what Canon is. Not determine it for themselves. Or are you Protestant?

[@michael6549]

Gavin Ortlund had a good scholar on his channel to talk about this topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHTai4GoZrZpatk He explains that the evidence is much more ambiguous and nuanced than Trent lets on. For example, it's not always clear that when a biblical author or an early Father alludes to a book within the so-called deuterocanonicals that he is citing the book as scripture. Also, several early Fathers (wrongly) assumed that Baruch was actually written by Jeremiah and that Wisdom was actually written by Solomon. This is why they sometimes quote those books as scripture, despite the fact that they also explicitly reject the deuterocanonicals in other places. Trent might not like that explanation but then I guess he'll just have to accept that many Fathers were inconsistent about these matters, sometimes saying that the deuteroncanonicals were not scripture but then other times quoting the deuterocanonicals as scripture. The canon is one of the reasons I abandoned Roman Catholicism (amongst many other reasons). Those books were not universally accepted by the early Church. Among others, Julius Africanus, Melito of Sardis, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, Jerome, and Gregory the Great, all explicitly rejected the deuterocanonicals. Nor were these books accepted by the Jews of Jesus' day. It's true that there were some who did not embrace the idea of a closed canon in the way that Josephus does. Some of the Qumran sectarians seem to have thought that they could still revise the books of Moses or add new psalms. But they were evidently outliers. Jesus never grants them legitimacy in this respect by quoting, say, the Hodayoth hymns or 11QTemple. He also directs us to accept the teachings of the Pharisees (Matt 23:1), who certainly would not have accepted the legitimacy of books that were composed by Qumran sectarians. Trent suggests that Josephus was open to the idea of the canon still being open. This is not true. Listen to what he says: "we do not have an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing with, and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have], but only (μόνος) twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine." (Josephus, Against Apion 1.38) He then proceeds to list the books. His whole point is that the sacred books speak with a consistent voice and are definite in number. His argument would have had no legs to stand on if he believed that books of scripture were still being written or that the canon was still indefinite. One last thing. There was no official collection of books known as "the Septuagint". In Jesus day there were only individual books of scripture that had been rendered into Greek at various times and by various translators. The fact that some early Christian manuscripts such as codex Alexandrinus contain books of the deuterocanonicals does not imply that there was a recognized number of books that everyone would have identified as "the Septuagint".

[@davidszaraz4605]

Yeah and Gary Michuta responded to that video in several parts: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHKqiH16qtl4b7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZLLmqSqoLd5kMk kzbin.info/www/bejne/o17XY4mqdpd5gdU&t Regarding Josephus: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rniQdHZva5iCY8U kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKrQm5iAm7-Coa8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKavmpebatxreaM Check them out, learn and you will see why is Dr. John Meade inconsistent in his arguments. Check out also the other videos on that channel regarding those Early Church Fathers you listed. They all use these as inspired books to confirm doctrine. Would you say they were all confused?

[@JJ-cw3nf]

Gavin Ortlund opinion doesn’t outweigh the opinions of Clement, Ireneaus and more who explicitly said they used they Septuagint, who knew the apostles and disciples that were taught by the apostles

[@michael6549]

@@JJ-cw3nf I can tell you didn't watch the video and just an ideologue, not actually interested in learning anything.

[@BornAgainRN]

@@JJ-cw3nf since you feel the opinion of Irenaeus "outweighs" Dr. Ortland's in regards to the books he considered Scripture, do you also agree with Irenaeus (and others) when he called The Shepherd of Hermas, "Scripture"? And do you also agree with Irenaeus (and the Muratorian Fragment) that Wisdom belonged in the NEW Testament?

[@BornAgainRN]

Michael, thanks for the link. I will check it out. I will be interviewing Jonathan Sheffield on my channel soon to discuss the canon & his debate with Trent.

[@germanvazquez4844]

When will you debate Jeff durbins

[@TheCounselofTrent]

Whenever he agrees if he's interested!

[@jon6car]

@YAJUN YUAN Colossians 2:16

[@jon6car]

@YAJUN YUAN "σαββάτων" that is the exact greek word used to descibe Shabbat in that verse (Colossians 2:16). It has 11 occurences of that particular form (68 total of the root) and in each case means the seventh day. It is number 4521 in strong's Greek concordance so you can look for yourself.

[@Mkvine]

But otherwise great debate.

[@fishpawnz838]

Book of Tobit?

[@isaakleillhikar8311]

Oh my gosh. Steve Christies questions were busting !

[@anthonytan7134]

I love Steve, Catholic-bashing TULIPer, make me study Catholicism MORE seriously.

[@Wenuraa]

Great

[@patrickparsons2378]

No. Next!

[@ilonkastille2993]

Well lettered, honest and intellectual Protestants, convert to Catholicism , being in the same position as Cardinal Newman who said: » Being deep in history means you CEASE to be Protestant. «

[@bandie9101]

but wait the list of canon is in the bible, it's the 28th book of the NT: the letter of Saint Toc :)

[@johnchung6777]

This Protestant claims there is no evidence of the canon closed after the Old Testament,if that’s true well where is the proof that the canon of scripture was closed before the New Testament

[@mikeytrn709]

Who that know the true don't have debates but those that don't know the true have debates and many religion's of the world don't have the true

[@danielswartz6818]

In the book of Acts it was the determination why the apostles that the Holy Spirit spoke through councils. There were at least three different councils that picked the Canon of the Bible which wound up being 73 books that's three times the Holy Spirit has spoken about what goes in the Bible. Original King James version had 73 books don't believe me there are several copies in the Smithsonian institute in Washington DC. That King James version had 73 books until almost the end of the 19th century then seven books were taken out by the Scottish Bible society the reason they gave if we kept them in we'd have to become Catholic so. Who are you or anyone to dispute the Holy Spirit on what he chose to go into our Bible not Martin Luther not the Scottish Bible society nor any of your guests who are making this challenge that has been guaranteed by the three councils starting in 393 ad. Verification scripturally is that Jesus gave the 12 apostles to bind and to lose on Earth and in heaven. Throughout history councils or attended by bishops descendants of the apostles and the right persons to make the choices with the power to bind and to loose hence that it can counsel two is a prime example and throughout the centuries there have been many councils about Christian doctrine. Therefore you and your panel and all the people involved have no authority to do anything with the Bible it's already been done 1700 years ago.

[@MsHburnett]

I didn't realize that the book removal was so recent . So luther and Calvin and knox left all the catholic bible intact? -

[@CovocNexus]

Why would you base your argument on Jewish tradition? If they believed the Cannon to be closed and you agree, why wouldn't it be closed on the NT as well? Second, people have got to stop believing that Judaism today was the same as 2nd temple Judaism. The truth is that there were different cannons and different theologies among the Jews. Those Jews that believed in the our cannon, or believed in a multi-personal deity, became Christians. Judaism today are the those that disagreed. A lot of Christians are falling for survivorship bias when it comes to what they think of authentic Judaism.

[@MegaVincenzo13]

There is no protestant old testament. The KJV OT was gotten from the masoretic text, which was written in the 800s. Note the Temple was destroyed in the 70 AD. The Septuagint is the oldest and most accurate OT. The point is that all the ancient scrolls were destroyed when the temple burned in 70 AD. The Septuagint was the bible of the Apostles.

[@mike-cc3dd]

I would be an apologist youtuber but i don't have enough bookshelves

[@Dorfapoligetik]

his "strongest" and most used argument is Jerome....the funny fact that destroy his argumentation completely is that for Jerome the Apostolic Church is the ONLY Authority that can decide/declare the Cannon of scripture. So his Argument is useless.

[@jesseshooter4403]

Spoiler: no, they should not.

[@WickedFelina]

Why not if it is the cannon the Jews follow?

[@jeremysmith7176]

@@WickedFelina Should we follow Rabbinical Judaism in rejecting the New Testament?

[@alcarbo8613]

@@WickedFelina Not during the time of Jesus

[@mikethemonsta15]

@@WickedFelina why would we follow the Canon of a group of Jews, rather than what the early Christians considered canonical?

[@BullSheeper]

@@WickedFelina the Jews also reject the New Testament. Should we agree with them on that?

[@catholicrusader7]

Im sorry but in what world will you appeal to jews who rejected Christ as authority for Christianity? The disciples of Christ used the septuagint which have the deuterocanon. NT Cross references these books hundreds of times. Wisdom 2 makes prophect of Jesus. Why choose authority of jews who reject Christ over His disciples ?

[@mikeytrn709]

Like Catholic and Protestant don't have the true

[@scottmaltby4511]

Why are we not debating Yiddish vs Semite? ☠🇮🇱☠

[@CenturionTheodore]

There is only one Baptism and one true church which is the Orthodox Church. The same church of the first 1000 years before the schism. Protestants can argue all they want but their bodies are still separated from the body of Christ. I pray that all become orthodox and not be deceived anymore.

[@Mortylicious_]

W

[@dave1370]

I mean, if Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, Jerome, Rufinus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John of Damascus, Hilary of Poitiers, and others held to Scriptural canons not in line with that which Trent demands as dogmatic, what are we to think? If Rome was consistent wouldn't they be declared posthumously anathema or something? I honestly don't know that answer.

[@didiernuncio6683]

You should go to the KZbin channel Apocrypha Apocolapse, its Gary Mithcutas channel and he goes over the lists of these church fathers and examines their writings because while a church father will make a list without the deutercoanon, they will also quite the deutercanon and call it scripture at the same time, so did they really consider them apocrypha or not? He goes over that, he has a Playlist on just looking at early canon lists

[@davidszaraz4605]

@@didiernuncio6683 I wrote Dave two times to check out those videos on the Apocrypha Apocalypse, yet he keeps posting this nonsense. He is not interested in the truth just in spreading lies.

[@phoult37]

You can't be in anathema prior to the declaration of a doctrine, so no, it would not make any sense at all to anathematize people who had a different cannon list.

[@renjithjoseph7135]

Maybe we should declare the Old Testament saints like Moses and Elijah anathema because they didn't hold to the Trinity. LMAO

[@davidszaraz4605]

@YAJUN YUAN lol :D

[@petethepeg2]

Why don't Jewish people accept the Apocrypha? The Tanakh (Jewish scriptures) were set by Ezra and Anshei Knesset Hagadol (Men of the great assembly) at the time the Temple was rebuilt. To be included the books had to be: Written at some level prophecy Torah is unique as it was written by Moshe through direct prophecy Nevi’im (prophets) were written through indirect prophecy Ketuvim (scriptures) through divine inspiration The books had to be written Hebrew The books could it contradict the Torah or what it taught Anything not put into the Tanakh by then cannot be put in at a later date. The apocrypha do not meet this criteria, and those that were known at the time of Ezra rejected for one or more reasons. Obviously anything written after that time is automatically rejected as it was written after prophecy was removed from the world (In Judaism the last prophet was Malachi and there will be no more prophets until the time of the Mashiach. This is the Jewish perspective and has implications in this debate, Finally did the Mashiach ever quote from the Apocrypha But then what does Judaism know!!!!

[@mynameis......23]

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

[@bblife7710]

the truth is that some of jewish knows that their authority are only in old testament not the new testament thats why paul send that the jews are the only trusted on holding the words of Gods which is true its old testament but we know that the upcoming promises will change the customs of jewish like in new testament and jesus where he give authority in any man but before that he called 12 people to proclaim and preach that he is coming which is already been prophesied by the prophets and also lets say that there is legitimate canon that been decided by the jews because jews are more focus on holding their different canons that unites it in one books because theyre holding the tradition and customs that came from their families and ancestors that means it should not be change what is written inside the canons becuase it can cause divisions among the jews so theyve plan if your going to follow this you should make your own congregations if your against in this canon which is can lead into different canons. there are more important than the standard we use to determine that this books are inspired because if we read any jewish work and their folklore or any writtings that have GOD and inspired by GOD words it should be part of the bible or a canon but we choose to not include it because we are focus on preaching and it also prove that the bible is only a text to remind someone or to read it. in early times there are no publications of the bible we use it to preach and have a sermon thats why there is no canonically books in one books because where preaching using our mouth or tongue not by giving a book that they read. and also if we think the parables of jesus we can include it in canon because it has inspiration from god not just that but many more. I would have said more but I might get lost in the topic. The only important thing here is that no one proves that the canonical books we hold are stated by the Jews because we must remember that what the Jews follow is not only the word of God and preaching the word of God in other countries but their tradition not just that but they only had a canon because of the community and where the great jewish anchestors are if their jewish ancestors were not pharisees they would not accept the canons recognized by the pharisees. so we also have dialouge so we can balance what we want to include or not include and also nothing is said in the bible that this is the true canons the only important thing is that we read the bible and we live here.

[@nikitachirich7985]

Apostolic succession is impossible, this is why there are the original metastases of the Church, when the sees were established in Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Malabar and Rome , all had episcopal cooperation as sees of the Church, two of them as known historically were even founded by the original apostles !, not to mention the early Church family and close associates of the apostles establishing churches in Oriental Christianity and Eastern Orthodoxy , There is no primacy of Rome, Roman bishop like any orthodox bishop if you think of the Church historically without your own religious biases, be critical, have critical thinking man. Look at the Church, then look at the Councils, When Councils adhered sure alot of Churches were invited but the Nicaean core members were the church in Rome and Alexandria, henceforth do you see why Eritrean and Ethiopian sees as well as even the pre-schism Eastern Churches all have other books they canonized into their testaments? If that's not an example of religiosity i don't know what is, in the same regard those Councils as well as any Masoretic resources with the right manuscripts have as much authority as you do TODAY to declare whichever texts apocryphal or not in the same regard. This is the reason we actually have 10,000 denominations, its all religious constructs based on these loose foundations, and foundations were VERY loose indeed. How many books would you canonize out of the 88 known official texts and letters? Heck today you have even MORE access to ancient 1st century manuscripts from Nag Hammadi Dead Sea, all under archaeological scrutiny mind you. There is spiritual and moral truth that is the basis of the teachings of Jesus Christ, there is , but it lies not in some assumed traditions within some Church that claims itself the one and original Church, that pursuit is futile to be honest. If you cannot search your heart and spirit fully within the knowledge of any and all these sacred texts to get a glimpse perhaps of the altruism that Jesus of Nazareth was talking about, then perhaps you should not look for something that you cannot find there. Doctrine can't in itself lead you anywhere, your own conviction in the process, the feeling, the content will do that and it is ok if it won't you cannot discern this yourself, you either know that you do or know that you do not, much like love. Love after all, is the only thing Jesus was really teaching. As for the end of days, yes that eschatology is self fulfilling thus is the human condition, you can take and true long standing tradition today and it will prove itself to be so, especially no more clearer than laid out by the scriptures. Faith is a beautiful thing, its completely undefinable and completely ever present in the world.

[@hayatelaguna7599]

Um. Who cares what the jews think. Ask em about the new testament.

[@EpoRose1]

Because Jesus was a Jew and He was preaching to the Jews and referencing Jewish scriptures and the Apostles were Jewish, so we should probably have an idea of their mindset?

[@hayatelaguna7599]

@@EpoRose1 the only relevant Jews are the Christian ones. That's not who is being appealed to in this instance.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@EpoRose1 the Jews that rejected and had Jesus killed? Lol

[@creatinechris]

Jon wins, he has more books

[@frederickanderson1860]

Jesus fulfilled it. Search the scripture they testify of me. The prophecies are enough,the apocrapha has no such prophecy about the Messiah.

[@ravenhawk3758]

I prefer the Hebrew Bible in its original language … Hebrew

[@bullyboy131]

Not sure you're saying. Is it because your native language is Hebrew?

[@ravenhawk3758]

@@bullyboy131 No. I'm saying it because any language is best read in its original form. Things are always missed and changed during translation.

[@bullyboy131]

@@ravenhawk3758 Right. So you're able to read Hebrew?

[@ravenhawk3758]

@@bullyboy131 yes. But I get your point. Read the closest translation you can find because there are many mistranslations.

[@taylorj.1628]

Canadian catholic looks like the baby grinch. Sorry, I had to say it :|

[@cinnamondan4984]

Interesting side note from the Mormon world: all of the Protestant Old Testament is accepted as scripture except for Song of Solomon, which has been relegated to Apocrypha and is honestly lesser than Apocrypha in the LDS world.

[@brianfarley926]

Why do LDS claim to be Christian? By definition your faith believes in multiple Gods which make you pagan. Not to mention while some LDS claim to acknowledge the Trinity this true either. It it not the Same Trinity at all but rather a completely different version. Not trying to be offensive but it’s a bit like JW trying to claim to be Christian when they deny the divinity of Christ. They may follow a version of Jesus but there beliefs about God are an entirely different God than what Christians have held and about Christ since the dawn of Christianity

[@danielhaas9469]

Trent makes a very concerning statement at approx 40:30. The people of God during the OT times were ONLY the Jews. Therefore, they had by far much more to gain than any other people on Earth. The direct declaration that through Abraham God would choose a people for himself, the Law, the covenant and the promises made to them. They had the very words of God to comfort them to guide them and at times to discipline them. The Jews knew what the word of God was and is.. just sadly they denied God just as what was foretold they would do. When Christ was walking with some of the Apostoles he opened up scripture to them so they could see clearly and understand what God's plan was. How could this be before any NT writing was present? No Mr. Horn God's people know what his scripture was and is because God's people recognize his voice and follow him.

[@renjithjoseph7135]

"No Mr. Horn God's people know what his scripture was and is because God's people recognize his voice and follow him." That's correct. That's what Trent said. There's nothing concerning about his statement.

[@danielhaas9469]

@@renjithjoseph7135 rewatch it mate! As he states that God only gave them Oracles and not necessarily scripture. This is a massive blunder because he seems to downplay the massive importance and impact God had on and for the Jews.

[@mortensimonsen1645]

@@danielhaas9469 the point is not whether the Jews received the OT or not, but whether «oracles» refer to the scriptures or prophets/revelation in general

[@danielhaas9469]

@@mortensimonsen1645 thats the problem though mate. Since God chose Israel out of the world gave them instructions on how to worship and live and spoke to them through the prophets. Now what was given was God's word communicated orally and then written down. As such these are both revelation and scripture. For us these can be viewed as examples and to help us be rooted in God etc. This is far more worthy of praise than what Trent is suggesting. And that is outside the Torah or the 5 books of Moses is the only source until the council of Trent held 1525 or so A.D this is a massive problem.

[@tabandken8562]

@@danielhaas9469 And yet the Jews disagreed on which books would make up the canon. Some accepted only the first 5 books, others accepted the Protestant canon, others accepted the Catholic canon. Jesus gave His Apostles the Spirit of Truth. The Apostles represented His Church. His Church is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has the Spirit of Truth. The Church decided the canon at the Councils of Rome and Carthage LONG before Council of Trent. At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church REAFFIRMED the canon that was established 1000+ years prior when ex-Catholics were trying to do away with 7+ books.

[@JesusChristEmmanuel]

Exodus 20 And the Blessed Lord God, the Great King spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord God thy Lord God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord God, the Great King thy Lord God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: 6 And showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord God thy Lord God in vain: for the Lord God, the Great King will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord God, the Great King his God in vain. 8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. 10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord God, the Great King thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. 11 For in six days the Lord God, the Great King made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord God, the Great King blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the True Lord thy God will give thee. 13 Thou shalt not murder. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house: neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his. 18 And all the people saw the voices and the flames, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mount smoking: and being terrified and struck with fear, they stood afar off, 19 Saying to Moses: Speak thou to us, and we will hear: let not the Lord God, the King speak to us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said to the people: Fear not: for Lord God, the King is come to prove you, and that the dread of him might be in you, and you should not sin. 21 And the people stood afar off. But Moses went to the dark cloud wherein Lord God, the King was. 22 And the Lord God, the Great King said to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: You have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven. 23 You shall not make gods of silver, nor shall you make to yourselves gods of gold. 24 You shall make an altar of earth unto me, and you shall offer upon it your holocausts and peace offerings, your sheep and oxen, in every place where the memory of my name shall be: I will come to thee, and will bless thee. 25 And if thou make an altar of stone unto me, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones: for if thou lift up a tool upon it, it shall be defiled. 26 Thou shalt not go up by steps unto my altar, lest thy nakedness be discovered. Word of the Blessed Lord God, the Great King. Thank You Blessed Lord God, the King and Savior Jesus Christ. All you great numerous enemies; the enemy of the holy death of my Lord God, the King and Master Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary; the prince of darkness and iniquity, the father of all liars; I stand on the death of my Lord God, the King and Master Jesus Christ and offer His pains, wounds, and the Precious Blood of His left hand to the Eternal Father Lord God, the King for your downfall, your destruction and your scourging. Amen. Precious Blood of my Lord God, the King and Master Jesus Christ - reign in me and in the lives of all men. Amen. O holy loving Father, Lord God, the King of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Who protected the Israelites of old in His holy wings in the dryness of the cold and hot desert; I offer You the holy death of my Master and Savior, Jesus Christ, for the protection of Your people who are scattered all over the world. May the Blood and water wash and strengthen, save and cleanse us that we might find home in the Sacred Side of Your Holy Son that opens for all men. Amen. Sacred Side of Lord God, the King Jesus Christ - be our home for safety. Amen. Omnipotent and Omniscient Lord God, the King, Lord God, the King of Holy Elijah and the prophets, look at the Sacred Head of Your only-begotten Holy Son and have mercy. Arise and save Your people. I offer You all the shame, the pains, the wounds and the Precious Blood from the Sacred Head of Your Holy Son for all Your children who are living in these perilous times. Strengthen our true faith through the mockery of Your Holy Son, Lord Jesus Christ, and save us through the Precious Blood from His Sacred Head. May we, through the sufferings of Your Holy Son, Jesus Christ, learn to suffer in You and die in You. Amen. Holy tortures of Lord God, the King Jesus Christ - increase our true faith. Amen. Merciful and holy loving Father Lord God, the King, Your wish is that all men shall be saved. Kindly look on Your rejected and condemned Holy Son Who suffered many tortures and will suffer many through the sins of Your people. Look and see what sin has done to your only-begotten Holy Son. I offer for all Your people who are living in these ungodly and wicked days, all the tortures, pains, rejection and shame of your Holy Son, Lord God, the King Jesus Christ, to You, for the true faith to withstand trials and holy patience to withstand long torture. May they through the suffering of Your only Holy Son, fight to the end. Amen. Our Lord God, the King's torture - increase our true faith. Precious Blood of Lord God, the King Jesus Christ - save us. Amen.

[@austinespi1793]

There’s the little devil Canadian Catholic

[@lwdcourt]

The problem here for the Catholic position is twofold... 1) If apostolic succession was real and survive the apostles themselves, there would never have been any debate about which books should or should not be included in the OT.... Jesus would have made it plain to them. The fact there was a debate and there is no record of apostolic teaching on this is problematic. 2) Jesus, made it absolutely clear which books should be included! When speaking about the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Mt 23 Jesus said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you." Now if only we knew what books the Pharisees taught.... but we do! There are records of how the various different religious factions argued about the canon of the OT... and we know what the Pharisees taught. This was the eventual winner of the Jewish canon of scripture and doesn't include the Apocrapha.

[@Dorfapoligetik]

hahahaha...you have quoted Mt to prove you point...but this destroy you both points...because the church (which authority you question) has decided that Mt is scripture..... hahahaha.

[@jeremyluce4354]

First?

[@jeremyluce4354]

@YAJUN YUAN Thanks!!

[@giuseppesavaglio8136]

"Should christians accept the Protestant Old Testament canon?" Christians do. You need to word this differently.

[@torahfoundation]

3 'christians' talking about the Hebrew scripture, quoting many Jewish thoughts but with no Jew giving their opinion? Any jew would be most helpful here as you are discussing the Tanakh. It is like the time after Messiah where 'christians' came up with their own understanding without really any Jewish input 🤪

[@michaelibach9063]

You mean when Christians were guided by the Holy Spirit and Jews weren’t, 2000 years ago.

[@torahfoundation]

@@michaelibach9063 Yikes! You mean when the Holy Spirit guided the believers at that time into all Truth... Perhaps identify what scripture says is 'Truth', then perhaps give me one scripture reference where believers referred to them selves as Christians then we can go from there.

[@diego1590]

Who gives a fuck about the jewish input, you deny your Messiah, be silent.

[@parrisroy]

We've always accepted it!? It's only the pagan loving, false Christians who are not able to distinguish Divinely inspired writings from just writings! If they repent and are born again, then they will have this ability to distinguish Truth from error also! 😊 Isn't God good? YAAAYYY!👏🙌🤗😇

[@parrisroy]

Truth sucks dunnit? 🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣👏👏🙌 😇

[@EpoRose1]

I’ll play for a little- And how is one “Born Again?” What does Jesus say when Nicodemus asks that question in the third chapter of John?

[@JJ-cw3nf]

The first 300 years of Christianity all had different scriptures old and New Testament

[@hunterjones8962]

Dear 'True', so according to You the great Czech proto-Protestant martyr John Huss was NOT a 'True Christian' (like your esteemed self) because he accepted the Apocrypha as Scripture (also venerated the BVM, another 'no no'). Funny position for you to take as even the Pope (John Paul II) apologized for Huss' undeserved execution. When You have been burned alive at the stake for Your testimony of Jesus Christ, maybe then You can lecture us on what a 'True Christian' is or is not. And not before. Best, HJ

[@bcalvert321]

The books that were taken out is poetry or history. They say little about God or Jesus to come. This is also the way the Jews accept them. Catholics accept Maccabees praying for the dead but do not accept Hannaka. A very strange doctrine the Catholics have.

[@jeremysmith7176]

Where do get the idea that Catholics (or Orthodox or other apostolic churches with II Maccabees in their canon) uniquely reject Hannaka over the other Jewish Festivals in scripture. How many Protestants do you know who celebrate Purim?

[@justsomevids4541]

"They say little about God or Jesus" - have you read Wisdom 2:12-20 prophecy about Jesus, which the Jews at Jesus' cross quoted as scripture? And Martin Luther had the same mindset as you, he wanted to remove the book of James not mentioning Jesus... this really isn't a good standard.

[@DF_UniatePapist]

Yom Kippur is in the book of Leviticus, but I guarantee you don’t celebrate it.

[@bcalvert321]

@@jeremysmith7176 Why should we? Ester is a great story but Purim has nothing to do with Jesus or Christians.

[@bcalvert321]

@@justsomevids4541 The scripture you put down has nothing to do with Jesus and Him being on the cross. He did not quote any of the Book of Wisdom.

[@wardashimon-australia33]

The Gospel: Plain and Simple “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” - 2 Corithians 11:3 Ask someone today if they are saved and you will most likely hear responses like these: “I have accepted Jesus into my heart.” Or “I have made him Lord of my life.” “I’ve been baptized.” “I said a prayer.” Sounds all good and churchy don’t it; but it is difficult to de-termine whether or not a person actually knows the gospel that saves them. These use￾less phrases don’t describe a thing about what the gospel is and has left a devastating effect of people not knowing what it is that they are saved from nor how they are saved; which leaves a more serious effect of people ques￾tioning their salvation. Let’s not muddy the simplicity of salva￾tion that is in Christ with vague church sounding phrases that do not communicate anything. But rather present God’s word with clarity and assuredness. So here is the gospel: plain and simple. Sin was passed upon all men by one man Adam, and death is a consequence of this sin (Rom 5:12). Mankind has an eternal destiny of condemnation and wrath - Hell - because of this sin (Rom 6:23). No matter what good works one might do we are still found sinners in the sight of our Creator God. And all un￾righteousness and those who follow get in￾dignation and wrath. We cannot be found righteous for by God’s law we are found sin￾ners (Rom 3:19-20). If we have broken even one law we are found guilty. It is for this reason of not being able to create our own righteousness and being born in a sinful flesh that we need a savior (Titus 3:5). Christ is that Savior, God manifested in the flesh, sinless, died in our place on a cross 2000 years ago. Taking upon him the wrath and judgement that was intended for us sin￾ners. And it is through his bloodshed, burial, and resurrection on our behalf that we are able to have peace with God and forgiveness of our sins (1 Cor 15:1-4, Col 3:14). This good news is unto all but only those that believe in it are made righteous in Christ (Romans 3:22). It is then after we have heard this good news of Christ’s righteousness available to us freely, that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and we are now part of Christ’s body the church (Eph 1:13) There is nothing that we need to do, no good works that are required, and no bad works that can separate us from our new po￾sition in Christ (Romans 8:35-39). Faith and belief in this information from God’s word is the gospel. The gospel is not accepting Jesus into your heart. The gospel is not making him lord of your life, it is not saying a prayer and it is not being baptized with water. So next time someone asks you if you are saved. Give them the clear assured answer Yes And let me tell you why Find more free resources at www.graceambassadors.com

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

Let me take the bait. Are you saved?

[@wardashimon-australia33]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Yes I am.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

@@wardashimon-australia33 What does "saved" mean?

[@wardashimon-australia33]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Did you read the first message

[@wardashimon-australia33]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Saved from hell

[@M5guitar1]

No