DEBATE! Should Christians Keep the Torah? | David Wilber vs. Tony Yu

Two Christians, David Wilber and Tony Yu, debate the role of the Torah in the lives of believers. This debate was hosted and moderated by Josh Tolley. It was originally streamed live May 14, 2017 on the Josh Tolley Show.
To read David's recap of this debate, go here: davidwilber.co...
David Wilber's website: davidwilber.com/
Freedom Hill Community: www.freedomhil...
Josh Tolley: www.joshtolley....
-Torah related resources-
5 Reasons Christians Should Keep the Torah: • 5 Reasons Christians S...
Should Christians Keep the Torah?: • Should Christians Keep...
Should Christians Keep the Torah? (Answering Objections): • Should Christians Keep...

[@YahushaismyKing]

Hey, new to this channel. My husband and I watched last night and he said you should have dropped the mic after your opening statement. After watching, Mr. Lu seems to have the same old arguments as to why we shouldn’t observe Torah. Admittedly, when we first came to Christ, new to the faith, we were in that same camp…but when we started to read the Word for ourselves, we started to have questions. We had no idea that people even kept the Sabbath or Feast Days. Once we were convinced of the doctrine of Jesus (He taught Torah), we left that church and after much prayer, the Lord brought people into our lives who believe as we do. 🙌🏼 Love to all.

[@leonardhunt7241]

@YashuaismyKing Jesus taught Torah ! [ instruction ]! The Ten Commandments give Eternal Life Luke 10:25-28. ‘The Law and the prophets were until John;’ since that time [ the Law and prophets were until John Luke 16:16, prophesied until John Matthew 11:13 ] the kingdom of God ( kingdom of heaven Matthew 3, 4:17 ) is preached and every man presses into it.’ ‘It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law [ the law of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16 ] to fail.’ Leviticus chapters 5-22 detail What Defiles A Man 😕, each’s atonement, and its punishment. Jesus defines God’s latest definition of What Defiles A Man: Matthew 15:10-11-20 ‘Not that which Goes Into the mouth 👄 Defiles A Man; but that which Comes Out of the Mouth, This Defiles A Man.’ Yes 👏, Jesus, God speaking John 14:10, effectively took away the first - Leviticus chapters 5-22 - ‘that he may establish the second’ Hebrews 10:9. The lawyer and Jesus admitted that the Ten Commandments give Eternal Life under the law of the Mt Sinai testament. Luke 10:25-28. Without mentioning the law of the Mt Sinai covenant, Jesus said to have Eternal Life, Keep the Commandments. When asked Which . Jesus said, Don’t murder Don’t commit adultery Don’t steal Don’t bear false witness ( to others or to yourself Don’t covet anything that is your neighbor’s ) Honor your father and your mother: and ( Greek, that is,) , Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Matthew 19:16-19, the second summary of the Law of Mt Sinai effectively taking away the Ten Commandments replacing them with the kingdom of God’s Eternal Life Law. Jesus taught Torah, the Torah of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16-17.

[@ChildofYHVHforever]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

[@BeWellBrandon]

Amen.

[@TexasGrandma2010]

Old Testament. Written to Israel. Old Testament is to and for Israel. Doesn't mean we don't read it. We learn a lot. Mosaic Law requirements are not to the gentiles.

[@yochananpeacock6101]

then how do you live????​@@TexasGrandma2010

[@the_coreyjohnson]

@@TexasGrandma2010 Hebrews 8:8-13 shows the New Covenant is with Israel and only Israel. When you enter the new covenant through Christ, you enter Israel and you receive a new heart that knows the Law of God and keeps the Law. The old covenant Law and the new covenant Law are the same Law. The difference is the heart. The problem with the old covenant was that man did not keep it. The new covenant causes you to keep it. If you are not keeping the Law of the old covenant, you cannot claim to be in the new covenant, since the new covenant is keeping the Law.

[@John14Verse6]

@@TexasGrandma2010If you do not consider yourself an Israelite then we would have to question if you are a child of God. “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:11-22) “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:17-21)

[@KesslerMickschGeorgeII]

Tony keeps missing the point; observance of the law doesn’t save, just like Baptism doesn’t save.BUT, both Baptism and observing the Law are very important in terms of obedience and bearing fruit.

[@TheDoctrineDetectiveChannel]

Very well said brother. In fact anyone who is a studious messianic Torah observer know ‘there is no remission without the shedding of blood’. We don’t think we can Torah our selves to salvation, the Torah itself says that. Yet it seems that most Christians think we believe that. May יהוה (GOD) bless you brother. Forgive the late comment but I felt lead to share

[@ginayedinak6036]

That just smacked me in the forehead! ☺ No Christian has an issue or disagrees that we are COMMANDED to be baptized. Yet most Believers are offended and appalled when they're shown how God COMMANDED us to follow His Instructions for life, recorded in the first 5 books of the Bible.

[@BeUnique94-v1i]

I second that. Every scripture that he brought up were about us not being saved by the law or under the yoke of earning our salvation through keeping Torah. Yet, we are told that faith without works is dead. We show our faith through our obedience. I don't know any Torah observant Christian who claims that it is necessary for salvation. However, obedience is better than sacrifice.

[@gamerChau]

When you guys say Torah, that’s like saying the mosaic law or law of Moses?

[@leonardhunt7241]

@@gamerChauTorah defines as instruction, from the five 5️⃣ books, not particularly only from written blocked instruction. Torah keepers don’t usually accept the Torah was taken away with the coming of the preaching of John the Baptist Matthew 11:13 ‘for all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John’ Luke 16:16a ‘The Law and the prophets were until John;’ . Most people don’t start from the teachings of Jesus Christ but from the teachings of Paul; such a shame😢. Jesus went through life speaking the words of God The Father John 14:10. ‘The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy’ Revelation 19:10. Jesus was asked what to do to have eternal life. Jesus said Keep the Commandments. We need to read more! Jesus was asked Which? Matthew 19:16-18-19: Don’t murder Don’t commit adultery Don’t steal Don’t bear false witness : to others: or: to yourself: Don’t covet anything that is your neighbor’s: Honor your father and your mother: Love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 19:16-19, the commandments to keep to have Eternal Life. The label is out of Leviticus 19:18, the second summary of the Law Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31. Jesus defined What Defiles A Man Matthew 15:10-11-20. Under the Torah, What Defiles A Man and their atonements were spelled out in Leviticus chapters 5-22. Did Jesus explain these? Jesus explained ‘Not that which Goes Into the mouth 👄, but that which Comes Out of the Mouth, This Defines A Man.’ By saying that, Jesus was giving notice of the Torah having been, until John. Everyone needs to return to Jesus’s words.

[@ginayedinak6036]

The more I listen and learn from various teachers in what I'll call the Messianic movement and I to try to find a "gotcha" ( because as a Christian my whole life Im terrified to follow something that is some weird movement or heresy) Im convinced even more that following The Torah to the best of my abilities with The Holy Spirit's help is the way I should walk out my faith. Ive been ill for some time so ive had lots of time to take in a lot of info on KZbin mostly. Im looking for a congregation near me and im blessed that it looks as though ill have several in my area to visit and choose from. ( im in Phoenix, AZ and theres some here and in surrounding cities! Who knew?!) My adult son, 20 y.o. ,cheerfully told me he could attend a Sabbath service withbme when I mentioned I found a few around us. My husband hasn't delved into learning yet, mostly because he's working a lot to keep us afloat, but he's open to everything I've shared with him and thinks it all mostly makes sense. So i know im blessed. A lot of people have no one that supports them when they begin to keep Sabbath and the Torah! Pretty sure the rest of my family isn't so happy about. Wait until I tell them im not keeping Christmas and especially not Easter! 😂

[@leonardhunt7241]

@ginayedinak6036 yes 👍 Yes 🙌 YES 👏 FOLLOW THE TORAH UNDER MESSIAH: Torah defines as instruction. Matthew 5:17-18 verse 17 ‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill . For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one 1️⃣ jot or one 1️⃣ tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.’ Matthew 11:13 ‘For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.’ [ Luke 16:16-17 ‘The Law and the prophets were until John;’ ‘since that time - the prophets and the Law prophesied until John Matthew 11:13; ‘the Law and the prophets were until John’ Luke 16:16 - the kingdom of God ( the kingdom of heaven Matthew 3, 4:17 ) is preached, and every man presses into it.’ ‘It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law [ the law of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16 ] to fail.’ Luke 16:16-17. Leviticus chapters 5-22 defines What Defiles A Man ( along with each’s atonement and punishment ) . Jesus said What Defiles A Man: ‘Not that which Goes Into the mouth Defiles A Man; but that which Comes Out of the Mouth, This Defiles A Man.’ Matthew 15:10-11-20. Jesus effectively takes away Leviticus chapters 5-22 and establishes his New Testament kingdom of God law of What Defiles A Man, speaking God’s Torah John 14:10. A lawyer asked Jesus, ‘Master, what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life? He said to him, What is written in the law? How do you read it? And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and, your neighbor as yourself. And he ( Jesus ) said to him, You have answered right: This do and you shall live.’ Jesus confirmed ✅ that the Ten Commandments were to give Eternal Life. Follow. Without mentioning the Law, Jesus was asked What to do to have Eternal Life. (2) Jesus said Keep the Commandments. He said to Jesus, Which? Jesus said, Don’t murder Don’t commit adultery Don’t steal Don’t bear false witness ( to others or to yourself Don’t covet anything that is your neighbor’s ) Honor your father and your mother: and ( Greek, that is,), Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Matthew 19:16-19 effectively replacing the Ten Commandments as the law giving Eternal Life to only the law’s second summary of the law as the commandments [ of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16-17 ] which give Eternal Life. Matthew 19:16-19, the second summary of the law Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31: Exodus 20:12-17. Are we under the Messiah’s Torah ?

[@henkbloemhard3488]

Tony Yu is one of those whom Peter wrote about of those who twist Paul's writings to their own destruction. 'as also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.' ( Peter 3:16) If the law (Torah) HAD been abolished, there would be no more penalty for sin, because sin is transgression of the law (Torah). 'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law (Torah) : for sin is the transgression of the law.' (1 John 3:4) And we read further that the wages of sin is DEATH (written to believers in Messiah in Romans 6:23) Well, Tony Yu and others like him, will have an unpleasant surprise when they are standing before the Judgment Seat and hear ; 'Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:23) The reason that people are so deceived is because of unconfessed sin in their lives. There is no other explanation for it.

[@LightSeekers777]

Paul DIDN'T KEEP the law? Hmmm, let's see if that's true. Acts 24:14- But this I confess to you, that according to the way which they call a sect, so I worship the GOD of my fathers, believing all things that are written in the LAW and the prophets. Or Acts 25:8- Neither against the LAW of the JEWS, nor against the TEMPLE, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all. Or Acts 18:21- I must by all means KEEP this coming FEAST in Jerusalem.... Or Romans 12:12- ... for not the hearers of the LAW are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the LAW Will be justified. Or Romans 3:31- Do we then make void the LAW through faith? CERTAINLY NOT! On the contrary, we ESTABLISH the LAW! Or Romans 6:16- Do you not know that to whom you present yourself slaves to obey, you are that whom you obey, weather of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Or Romans 7:12- Therefore the LAW is HOLY, and the COMMANDMENT HOLY and JUST and GOOD. Or Romans 7:22- FOR I DELIGHT IN THE LAW OF GOD according to the inward man. Hmmmm, either Paul is a really confused person, or someone is twisting scripture! Let's see what God says. Deuteronomy 13:3-4 ....you shall not listen to the words of that prophet .....for the Lord your God is testing you, to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the LORD your GOD and fear Him; and you shall keep HIS COMMANDMENTS, listen to HIS VOICE, and serve HIM, and CLING to HIM! ....... So you see we are being tested! Seeds have been planted, and the seeds are the WORD of God. But the enemy came and sowed bad seed, which are tares, the Twisted word of God that Satan used to try to tempt Christ. They are allowed to grow together; but in the end, when Jesus comes back, HE will separate the Sheep from the goats. The sheep are the ones who listen and obey God's Torah; goats are the rebellious ones who hate God's word. JESUS IS GOD'S WORD! Matthew 5:19 whosoever shall teach others to break one of the least of these Commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever teaches and preaches these Commandments will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[@boltingpuppies]

Yes!

[@SonsOfIssachar]

When Tony Yu was reading scripture, he injected the word "law" a bunch of places where it wasn't written. This is really confusing, or even deceptive, for anyone not reading along.

[@Hebrew42Day]

It was extremely deceptive, and he ignored context in many key areas. Context is king.

[@fredharvey2720]

I'll take deceptive for $50, Alex.

[@Shalometh]

I noticed this.

[@Shalometh]

Especially in his opening statement

[@georgebossie7426]

Context is king. The mosaic law was written to the nation of Israel to set them apart. The new covenant is a new and better covenant, and it is a curse to try to live in the old covenant. And why would you want to live in the old one when we have a better and newer covenant?

[@roostermauldin]

I think Tony is a genuine believer, however I don't agree with his understanding of scripture by ignoring other scripture relating to them. I will say that he is impressively creative in his defense of false doctrine. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to listen to this debate.

[@truthnottradition7]

Ouch... "impressively creative in his defense of false doctrine" 😅 Its true though. All of Protestantism does that very thing.

[@DTH1661]

Shabbat Shalom and blessings brother. Excellent debate. Hebraic thought and eyes will always lead to biblical truth. Hellenistic thought and eyes just lead to confusion. Context, context, context the three most important tools for reading scripture once you have your Hebraic spectacles on. Tony Yu owned.....In love of course. Blessings brother. David (UK)

[@GiantSFaithfuL]

Tony, may God bless you for stepping out to do this and defend your perspective. The only problem, is that Scripture just doesn't line up with your perspective. I know because I was there. No doubt you seek Truth. I pray your eyes, ears and heart can be open to receiving Truth.

[@MaryKateG-8]

Did Yu really just say those obeying the most highs instructions are going to hell?! Wow. Great misunderstanding on his part. He needs to realize this is a brother in Christ and be loving to him and also LISTEN to what he's saying.

[@robertschmidt9296]

It baffles my mind when people say that. Scripture is very clear about the importance of keeping His commandments, and keeping the law is one of His commandments. The sad thing is those people who think that actually believe it.

[@yahsworld2940]

That's the definition of a satanic lie. Only he and those under his deception will call good evil and evil good. 'It is good to eat of the fruit that God said you would die from, as a matter of fact, you'll be made just like Him, you won't die'

[@p.johnson9502]

David simply shows us that Yeshua came as a Jew, honored His Father commandments, since the Great I Am is the highest authority. By the time of Constantine, those in political authority started chipping at the Faith once delivered. Gone was the true Sabath, the true feasts of YHWH, such assault on the teachings of Yeshua.

[@jamietownsend3677]

These are the people who longed to stone the woman caught in adultery in Moses’ name. They pretend to keep the law in pride & deception. Come to Christ.

[@6969smurfy]

Kate, that is what the Deciver does. It's number ONE task is to teach Torahlessness. It was sin numer 1 btw.

[@LightSeekers777]

Tony says Torah, the instructions and laws of our Creator, are bondage! He hasn't read Psalm 119, the LONGEST chapter in the Bible. Or how about James 1:25- "perfect law of Liberty" or 1John 5:3- "His Commandments are not burdensome". You see in order somewhere with Tony is saying you have to believe God is terrible oh, and he changes his mind. I mean after all if he's God and he knows everything why did he give an impossible law for thousands upon thousands of years if he knew they couldn't keep it? Not only that, but he said if you follow it it's life and blessings to those who follow and curses to those who don't. All the people who came before the cross were destroyed by God for not keeping the law; but then He finally realizes His major error, people can't keep the law. In fact the law is just a curse?!!! Wow I sure hope someone goes back to apologize all those people destroyed in the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah, ananias and Sapphira, oh wait that's the New Testament?! What happened to God's grace there?..... "Now the serpent was more subtle any beast of the field God had made. And he said unto the woman; 'has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'... and the serpent said unto the woman, 'You shall not surely die!' (so Eve ate)....... Have you eaten from the tree that I COMMANDED you not to eat?.... What is this that you have done? And the woman said, 'the serpent BEGUILED me and I did eat'. ...False Christianity is based on Paul, TRUE Christianity is based on GOD!

[@indo3052]

Paul cannot nulify jesus

[@SonsOfIssachar]

Tony Yu really butchered some of the laws he was trying to recite, totally rewrote them to his own liking to make them sound absurd. You shouldn't have to lie about what the laws are, as a means to refute them. And then to say that they were meant to be impossible to follow, when the scriptures say they are meant to be easy to follow? Too much rewriting of the scriptures was used by Tony to present his case.

[@robertfrancis3733]

Deuteronomy 30:11 ESV - “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

[@jirehseiuli6173]

​@@robertfrancis3733amein verses 12-14 says It is not in heaven, that you should say Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh to you in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it. Which is funny because the new covenant which christians use to claim we dont have to follow it (it is written in Hebrews 10:16-17 ) literally says the law will be written on our Hearts

[@azarel7]

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 This is part of the Torah. How are we going to follow this today? I'm not being facetious...I genuinely would like to know what you guys think.

[@leonardhunt7241]

@@azarel7we Are Not under a theocracy ( God ruled government ) and have no such law; Israel was a theocracy at the time the command was given. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets ‘Think not that I am come to abolish the law or the prophets: I am not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For verily I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one 1️⃣ jot or one 1️⃣ tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.’ Matthew 5:17-18 ( all applies only to the law, not to the prophets also, as it says). Matthew 5:17-18 Matthew 11:13 ‘for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John’ Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16-17 ‘The Law and the prophets were until John; since that time [ the law and the prophets were until John] the kingdom of God is preached… . And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law [ the law of the kingdom of God, not of Mt Sinai, but the kingdom of God ] to fail.’ Luke 16:16-17. Leviticus chapters 5-22 lists ways A Man Can Be Defiled, the punishment, and the atonement. Jesus said, ‘There is Nothing Without ( outside of ) a Man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that Defiles A Man. … ‘because it enters not into his heart, but into the belly and goes out into the drought, purging all meats ( foods )? Mark 7:15, 19 Matthew 15:17-18 ‘Do you not yet understand , that whatsoever enters in at the mouth Goes into the belly, and is cast into the drought? but those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart and they Defile A Man.’ These are which defile A Man, but to eat with unwashed hands 🙌 Defiles Not A Man.’ Mt 15:20. This is contrary to Leviticus 15:11 which commanded to wash the hands 🙌 after touching anyone or anything that one with a running issue out of his ( or her ) body has touched, even this Jesus was saying Does not Defile A Man. Matthew 15:10-20, Mark 7:15-23 . Jesus and a lawyer agreed that, In The Law, the Ten Commandments - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself - give Eternal Life Luke 10:25-28. When Jesus was asked What Commandments to do to have Eternal Life, without mentioning the law, Jesus said ‘ 1:36 Don’t murder Don’t commit adultery Don’t steal Don’t bear false witness ( to others or to yourself Don’t covet anything that is your neighbor’s ) Honor your father and your mother: and ( Greek, that is), Love your neighbor as yourself.’ By Jesus saying Only the second summary of the Law, Jesus was saying that the first summary of the law - Love God and your neighbor as yourself together with each of the regulations that came from them - No More Give Eternal Life, nor are they obligated for believers to do, even to please 🙏 God, God speaking through Jesus John 14:10. Those commandments Jesus gives otherwise are not labeled as giving Eternal Life, but to go onto maturity such as in Matthew 19:21-22. Hebrews 6:9 tells of things that accompany salvation ( you must have salvation first ); Philippians 2:12-13 commands believers to ‘work out your own salvation’ meaning you had to have salvation in order to work out your salvation. We are being saved 2nd Corinthians 2:15. We shall be saved ‘receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls’ 1st Peter 1:9, Romans 8:19-23 the redemption of the body.

[@crystalmcjunkin4]

Eeeek if you keep Gods Commands you go to hell? That is pretty sinister, what a deception

[@robinphillips2850]

As it relates to what Paul said about Peter withdrawing from eating with Gentiles, we only have Paul's side of the story. Peter may have discovered that they were eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols and left for that reason. I can't believe Tony said it is a sin to keep the commands. That is very sad. That would make Yeshua and all the disciples sinners. He doesn't seem to understand the Dueteronomy 13 Test or the Old Testament because if he did he would know that if Yeshua changed anything to do with the law he would be a false prophet and not the Messiah. The New Covenant is to write the laws on our heart...to cause us to obey the commands; not to drive us away from them.

[@bethanycarter3458]

Robin Phillips AMEN

[@Hebrew42Day]

It was about circumcision, not the type of food. The tradition of men, the Pharisees declared eating with Gentiles, even food declared clean by God, made one unclean. The reason the Pharisees made these traditions, is the Gentiles often had dead relatives under their houses. What does the law say about coming in contact with dead bodies? This is why the Pharisees constructed a fence around Torah, prohibiting gentiles and Jews from mingling.

[@leonardhunt7241]

@robinphilipps2850 the Deuteronomy 13 test has to do with following those who deceive to follow a different God. Jesus said: ‘For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John’ Matthew 11:13 ‘The Law and the prophets were until John; ‘ ‘since that time [ the Law and the prophets were until John Luke 16:16, Matthew 11:13 ) the kingdom of God is preached…’ ‘It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law ( the law of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16 ) to fail.’ Luke 17:16-17. Compare Luke 16:17 with Matthew 5:18 of the law before the kingdom of God Torah Law. God DID PROPHESY OF A NEW TESTAMENT Jeremiah 31:31-34. Yes 👍 the New Testament would include the law written in our hearts and minds Jeremiah 31:32 but Yeshua shows there’s more of a difference. ‘But you have an unction from the Holy One; and you know all things’ 1st John 2:20. ‘Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith sprinkled ( with the blood 🩸 of Jesus Hebrews 10:19-20 ‘Having therefore brethren boldness to enter into the Holiest By The Blood of Jesus, By A New And Living Way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh’ Hebrews 10:19-20 ) from an evil conscience and washed with pure water.’ Hebrews 10:22. Jesus became ‘a surety of a better covenant’ Hebrews 7:22. ‘For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John’ ‘The Law and the prophets were until John; since that time - the Law and the prophets were until John Luke 16:16-17, Matthew 11:13 - the kingdom of God [ The kingdom of heaven Matthew 3, 4:17 ] is preached ( the kingdom of God replaced the Mt Sinai testament Torah ) and every man presses into it.’ Luke 16:16-17 ‘It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law [ the law of the kingdom of God Luke 16:16 ] to fail.’ Luke 16:17. Leviticus chapters 5-22 is the Torah’s definition of What Defiles A Man: its description, punishment, and atonement . Jesus defines the kingdom of God’s definition of What Defiles A Man: Matthew 15:10-11-20 ‘Not that which Goes Into the mouth 👄 Defiles A Man; but that which Comes Out of the Mouth 👄 Defiles A Man.’ Mt 15:11. Jesus effectively replaced the Mt Sinai covenant Torah with the kingdom of God Torah. The law that gives Eternal Life: Luke 10:25-28 A lawyer and Jesus agrees that In the Law: The Ten Commandments - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself - give Eternal Life. Luke 10:25-28. Matthew 22:36-40, Mark 12:29-31. Matthew 19:16-18-19 ‘… Good master, what good thing should I do that I may have Eternal Life? And he said to him, …. If you will enter into life, keep the Commandments. He said to him, Which? Jesus said, Don’t murder Don’t commit adultery Don’t steal Don’t bear false witness ( to others or to yourself Don’t covet anything that is your neighbor’s ) Honor your father and your mother: and ( Greek, that is), Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Jesus effectively replaced the Mt Sinai covenant [ Exodus 34:28 ] Torah with the kingdom of God Luke 16:16-17 ( kingdom of heaven Matthew 3, 4:17 ) Torah’s law that gives Eternal Life. There are other commandments Jesus gives which he doesn’t say give Eternal Life, but lead to maturity such as in Matthew 19:21-22. Hebrews 6:9 there are works which accompany salvation: Hebrews 6:1-3, Romans 5:1-5, including growing in faith , and learning more about the Son of God Ephesians 4:13 some of which is in Hebrews 6:20. We are saved, upon belief, belief which works by love Galatians 5:6, we are being saved 2nd Corinthians 2:15, and shall be saved Philippians 2:12 ‘work out your own salvation’.

[@linda81197]

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

[@boltingpuppies]

"Here is the patience of the *saints* here are they that: 'keep the commandments of God' and 'the faith of Jesus'." (Revelation 14:12)

[@CharityC1370]

Tony, NO....God didn't change the dietary law. Peter's vision had nothing to do with food. It had to do with Peter excepting gentiles as clean. But Tony thinks...oh, 10 years later after the cross God says hey, Peter you can eat a ham sandwich now. (SMH) Seems he never read the context of that entire chapter to see what is going on. And, we don't keep Torah for salvation. We keep it because we love our Father and want to obey him. It comes down to a heart matter. The best example of the Torah is a red light. When we drive, traffic lights keep us safe. If we drive through a red light we endanger our life and the lives of others. If you ran a red light and were judged and someone stepped in to take your punishment, you would be free of that punishment BUT that doesn't mean they would get rid of the traffic lights.

[@kimhart8154]

Charity Creech God will not condemn you for following the Jewish law ,nor will he condemn gentiles for what they eat.the main point is to be forgiven ,that comes from Jesus Christ,he will guide you as to what his will is for you.

[@SonsOfIssachar]

@@kimhart8154 His will was written down, which is why He often said "it is written". He wanted to make it clear that what was written, was His will. He will guide you to what He has already written, and reveal to you that it is His will for you. It is not up to our interpretation of what we feel was put in our hearts. We need to read what was put into our hearts.

[@boltingpuppies]

@@kimhart8154 According to Isaiah, Yah will indeed punish people who eat pig flesh, rats and the abomination. He said He will do this when He comes in flaming fire. He specifically talks about destroying people who are sanctifying themselves (setting themselves apart from the world) and purifying themselves (getting rid of sin) but who are also eating these unclean animals. He said he will do this at His coming. When God said my people perish for lack of knowledge He meant it.

[@dentoncarter8416]

Matthew 15:10-11 Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. 11A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.”

[@OneHighwayWalker]

@@dentoncarter8416 Read the whole context. The discussion is about eating without first ceremonially washing your hands. The Pharisees thought this made the food unclean.

[@MaryKateG-8]

Oh and there are some animals that if we eat them we would die, such as a Poison dart frog. Other foods although not deathly are simply not good for you and do not support health in humans. Therefore our loving Creator told us what to eat and what not to eat.

[@SG-jv5zi]

I just started a week ago to not eat unclean things... With YAH, all things are possible.

[@ShalomShireFarm]

I am not going to watch the video but rather I would like to answer the question in the title. Torah means Instruction. There are many instructions in the world. Some are instructions on how to put your Ikea furniture together. If we are specifically referring to Heavenly Father instructions then the answer is Yes, we should keep Adonai's instructions.

[@ariellioness9384]

If you can't follow the instructions exactly then you have a faulty piece of furniture. But someone who can and does follow all the instructions for you, builds it, then you already have that piece of furniture and you dont need to revert back the the instructions. Im learning here but that's a terrible analogy. With all due respect.

[@TexasGrandma2010]

Written to Israel. Was conditional upon Israel obeying the law. Using Matt. , Jesus is speaking to Jews. And not realizing Jesus said Je fulfilled it all, means it is done.

[@cheryls3777]

So if one is fulfilled in intimacy with their spouse, they shouldn't be intimate anymore??? It is finished? The relationship is fulfilled so we are done!!??? Wow....

[@juanjimenez7281]

excelent point

[@Hebrew42Day]

The three words "it is finished" are so twisted out of context. Paul's epistles and John's record of Messiah aren't the gospel. "As it is written" But they don't look at how it's written, they just interpret the commentary of the new testament (which is what the new testament is) the last and only word.

[@herewardthewatchful1014]

@@Hebrew42Day - Thank you! The warning Christ gave of people saying they seen Christ here or there "dessert, and or secret places" does apply to Paul and John who claim that the heard/seen Christ in these places rather than "like lightning shining from east to west" (for all to see) as our Lord promised.

[@bboness713]

Fulfill means to abound in and confirm by walking them out

[@shabbatsongs4801]

Unfortunately one cannot rationalize/argue anyone into or out of belief. These issues do not determine salvation as Tony incorrectly asserts. We do not follow Torah to achieve salvation, no, we follow Torah because we have been saved and our Yeshua/Salvation followed the Law. I know no one who attempts to force anyone to follow the Torah. It’s true that we cannot fulfill the Law. Tony mixes up the teaching of men with the Torah and forgets that most of us are not in Israel and so we cannot keep many of the Torah. I maintain that it is the Father’s Will for us to love Him and Love His Son, Who He sent as our Yeshua/Salvation. If we do love Him, we will follow His example by following the Torah.

[@cheryls3777]

Spot on, I agree. In some ways he seems anti semitic.

[@TexasGrandma2010]

He fulfilled the Law. It is no more. We have a new covenant in Christ.

[@leonardhunt7241]

@@TexasGrandma2010what does Jesus say?

[@leonardhunt7241]

@shabbatsongs4801 Torah and its lawyers admit the Ten Commandments of the Torah give Eternal Life Luke 10:25-28. If you don’t keep the Ten Words for Eternal Life you deceive yourself. That doesn’t mean that you don’t need to add faith to obedience.! If you love God The Father and his Son Jesus Christ you violate Exodus 20:3 ‘You shall have no other gods before me’, Isaiah 42:8 ‘my glory I will not give to ( share with? ) another’: ‘for the Father Judges No Man but has committed all judgment to the Son’ John 5:22 ‘and has given him authority to execute Judgment also for he is the Son of Man.’ John 5:27. What defiles A Man: Leviticus chapters 5-22 defines what defiles, punishment, and atonement. Jesus said [ after he had said ‘for all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John’ Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16-17 ] Matthew 15:10-11-20‘Not that which Goes Into the mouth 👄 Defiles A Man; but that which Comes Out of the Mouth, This Defiles A Man.’ Jesus effectively took away the first, Leviticus chapters 5-22, by establishing his definition, speaking the Father’s Word John 14:10, of What Defiles A Man in the kingdom of heaven Matthew 11:13, 3, 4:17, kingdom of God Luke 16:16-17 Torah.

[@yeshuahamashiachservant8165]

wow! This was killer, David seriously knows his bible! YAH bless!

[@mathewabraham602]

Brother Tony is genuine like many Christians who struggle on these issues. I wish and pray that he would take some time to hear this debate many times and reflect on these passages prayerfully. David, brother you were clear and kept yourself to the context and I was really blessed. May the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob be praised. We can learn to think better as we challenge each other and spur one another.🙏🏽😀

[@willingmanar6018]

All meaningful is repentance, due to the law of commandments.

[@brotherEbenezer]

Totally agree about spurring one another cowboy lol, just today I spurred someone calling a man Rabbi which Yehoshua Messiah says call no man Rabbi. I got bucked off quickly 😂. I am going to be using SPUR all weak!!!!!!!!

[@indo3052]

Ive come to a conclusion that torah still stands in good discernment Has heaven and earth passed

[@mandy7833]

So tell me how one keeps 613 laws or even memorizes them?

[@John14Verse6]

@@mandy7833You do understand that living anywhere in this world, man has put a lot more than 613 laws in your face that you must obey or have a penalty. How could you complain about 613? How blessed is our God that these are His laws and has only put that many for us to obey? How freeing is the law when if it was all we had? Israel complained about the law and wanted a king like other nations. Men who put us under bondage and not freeing us like God does. Please think about how freeing it would be to be under God’s law and his alone.

[@kbmonday82]

I think Tony passed over Matthew 5 too fast. Sure, it says "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." THEN says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." So is this Tony guy TRYING to be the least in heaven?

[@nathanieldiaz2845]

In my experience alot of people do that. I myself did it, I think on some level deep inside there is a part that sees that passage for what it truly is, therefore one has to run through it fast as a means to not truly deal with it.

[@xneutralgodx]

My other aspect is not all prophecy has been fulfilled likewise the judgements and certain precepts have yet to happen which is law. The government aka great white thrown judgement and king judgements must happen . So has all been fulfilled

[@hollyheath1340]

Tony’s ending statement made it sound like those who keep the law on our hearts don’t trust in Jesus. I have faith, love, trust and want to obey and do what is pleasing to him. I’m renewed ❤️

[@BeWellBrandon]

Amen!!!

[@demomoore7168]

Tony Yu quotes Mishna and added words to Torah. Nowhere does it say “cookware “ and accusing your opponent of wanting to fill his fleshly lusts? Nope. By belief in the Redeemer, we prove our belief in good works whereby all the Torah hangs on YAHUSHUA’s 1st & 2nd greatest summary of the commands (instruction). There was never a statement made, except by “Yu” saying that one is saved by the law. Contrarywise, belief without works is dead. To me, those who think they can just believe the Redeemer died for their sins, and then they can go fornicate, swear, cheat, lie, steal, covet, be drunkards, gluttonous , idolize (do you love movies, video games, sports and celebrities?) and who knows what else - are drinking the poison cup of disobedience in order to live in the flesh instead of walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:20-25). Revelation (Hazon) is clear on this.

[@hectordumba8567]

Sabbath (7th day ) is not a shadow it points back to creation

[@rogerboyd7185]

Yeshua summed it up well "all the law and prophets hang on his 2 commands" love your neighbor love your God"

[@kingdavid5529]

This is not true of Noah (talking to Tony Yu) God makes a distinction between clean and unclean animals when Noah is bringing animals into the Ark, this is simply not clearly defined in this part of Torah.

[@MrFranky1968]

Right, had Noah and his family eaten of the 2x2 animals then we would be missing a lot of different animals in the animal kingdom. Eat one of the equine species, no horse now. Eat one canine species and so on. But of the clean, there were plenty.

[@yochananpeacock6101]

there was only two (of the unclean animals)..and seven sets of the clean animals)....for sacrifice and eating)whilst in the ark....they were all kept to replenish the earth

[@amysteinkamp]

great debate - good job David!

[@DavidWilberBlog]

Thanks!

[@jonathonkamph3003]

Say it with me Tony. CONTEXT. Learn it.

[@cbtam4333]

Those who teach on the Torah would be well served to actually study it to see what it requires. Under the Law of Moses, the general rule, repeated numerous times in the Torah, was that Israel should ensure that the same law that applied to native-born Israelites also applied to the stranger (non-Israelite) who resided among the Israelites (Exodus 12:49). This would include the mixed multitude in the wilderness, non-Israelite servants living in Israelite households, and foreigners residing in their own households within the land of Israel. However, there were exceptions where the law that applied to native-born Israelites did not apply to Gentiles living under the jurisdiction of Israel. One of these exceptions was circumcision. The Torah strictly required circumcision of Jewish males on the 8th day after birth, but those in Israel living in Gentile households were only required to be circumcised if they desired to eat the sacrificed lamb during Passover (Exodus 12:43-48). Passover was also one of the 3 annual biblical festivals that Jewish males (not Gentiles) were required to attend in Jerusalem. So Gentiles under the Torah were generally not required to be circumcised. In insisting that Gentile believers did not need to be circumcised in order to become followers of the Way, the New Testament authors did not in any way abrogate or nullify the Torah. Under the Torah, Gentiles were not required to be circumcised unless they wanted to participate in the Passover feast in Jerusalem by eating the sacrificed lamb at the Passover Seder. The vast majority of Gentiles converting to Christianity during the time the apostles were writing most of the New Testament resided far away from Jerusalem, and as Gentiles would not have been required by the Torah to travel to Jerusalem for the Passover in any case. So to require these Gentile believers to be circumcised in order to join the body of believers would have gone far beyond what the Torah required of Gentiles living in the land of Israel, much more so any Gentiles living in other lands not in any way under the jurisdiction of Israel. By contrast, Paul went to extensive lengths, taking a Nazirite vow, (see Numbers 6:1-21 to find out what that is) to defend himself against false accusations that he was teaching Jewish believers in the diaspora not to circumcise their sons (Acts 21:18-26). If those accusations had been true, Paul would have been false teacher endorsing the violation of a direct Torah command, as the Torah clearly required Jewish males to be circumcised. The New Testament authors cannot be shown to have altered, nullified or abolished any commandments in the Law of Moses, including the commandment on circumcision, because the Law of Moses never imposed circumcision on Gentile households, except for those who desired to eat the Passover lamb in Jerusalem. Even this limited exception was only relevant for Gentile believers until 70 A.D., when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, thereafter preventing anyone, Jewish or Gentile, circumcised or not, from being able to sacrifice or eat a Passover lamb.

[@timothytay8840]

Thanks David for this interesting topic. I strongly believe that this misconception of Christians are not obliged to keep Torah is because the replacement theology (the church replaces Israel) which has been implemented for centuries is the root cause. We are indeed blessed to be this generation where Israel is resurrected in 1948, and this absurd issue of replacement theology should & must be addressed. Shalom.

[@franciscougartr2415]

i agree with everything you said but the part about isreal being resurrected i don't. you will know them by their fruits.

[@brentbeatty4171]

I speak about replacement theology to various family and Christian friends around me and they just deflect in avoid the topic. I live in Weirton West Virginia next to Pittsburgh

[@TheOtherCaleb]

Very few theological traditions sprout from replacement theology. The majority of them, who deny Torah observance mind you, still say that the church is unified with the people of God.

[@indo3052]

He said the law was never the goal. But that’s exactly what rom 10:4 says. Jesus is the goal of the torah. Not the end

[@Alive_unto_God737]

Thanks for doing this video. Very well done. I've seen too many debates that were a total mess

[@MBOFOYH]

In the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son: Jesus teaches repentance. Jesus said that heaven is filled with joy when lost people repent. Why didn't Jesus say heaven rejoices when people receive salvation, or when they believe in their heart... John the Baptist, Jesus, and his followers taught repentance.

[@Lafaramesh2.0]

Acts 15 is good enough for me, no more confusion for me.

[@davidpopoca9409]

This

[@BWyatt76]

I'm convinced people who say the Law has been done away with, never read the laws. They are very good laws. The first time I read through them, with clearer understanding, I decided to follow them. Lets use 2 laws for example, one law says, "Children don't strike your parents", another law says, "Don't take advantage of widows". So you're telling me, since the law has been done away with, I can strike my parents, and take advantage of widows? Again, I don't think Christians have even read them. Is eating bacon and getting tattoos really that important?

[@mr.e1220]

Great debate, and it actually answered some of my millions of questions. Good job David! I am a new subscriber now.

[@juanjimenez7281]

im new to torah and can tell tony has acts 10 all twisted.

[@amsterdamG2G]

My eyes shed streams of tears because Your law is not obeyed. -- Psalms 119:136 --

[@firstthessalonian6889]

Hebrews 7:26-28 NKJV - For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

[@jirehseiuli6173]

​@@firstthessalonian6889Hebrews 10:16-17 For this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days says Yah I will put MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM and their sins and inequities will I remember no more

[@albundy59]

David Wilber, if you see this maybe you could get in touch with Kent Hovind and ask him to debate you on the Sabbath or unclean meats.

[@johnlawson6851]

One of my favorite debates by David

[@draxthedestroyer2442]

Tony yus arguments can easily be refuted.

[@PronomianAndrew]

Did Yu really say that if you try to keep God’s law you are cursed? So is he saying that if you are lawless you will be blessed…. Obviously not….but I’m shocked. How does Yu understand how we should live…only what’s affirmed in the New Testament?

[@the_coreyjohnson]

He must be big into kidnapping and beastiality, since both of those are forbidden by Torah, but not commanded in the New Testament. If he doesn’t kidnap and have sex with animals, he is keeping commandments only found in Torah, and therefore, is under the Law and abed to hell (according to his own reckoning.) If course, we should keep all of God’s commandments in the Law, and His grace is for when we fail. And our faith in Christ changes our hearts to better obey his commands.

[@carlmathias428]

Great job brother. From a Baptist Pastor to a follower of My Redeemer commandments. Shalom

[@charitybrook6279]

Could you share some more of your testimony with us?

[@justinmacaluso8712]

Praise Yahweh!

[@unlikelyprophet3260]

When you are truly saved you will want to live as he lived it will replace all your desires and TV will be taken down and thrown out

[@lmordin]

Does that include getting rid of your phone and computer?

[@indo3052]

@@lmordin only if used for nonsense

[@coreybarton8112]

I am a Torah observant Christian, I will tell you no the law will not save, BUT the law is the created by God so that we remember what he hates so we don't condemn ourselves, this isn't just the 10 commandments but this also includes the levitical dietary kosher laws. There is food you can and cannot eat, you can have chicken, turkey, beef, venison, and fish as long as they have fins AND scales, the butcher also has to be a butcher that practices the kosher techniques of producing meat. You cant eat a cheese burger because that's mixing meat and dairy, and you cannot eat certain hamburger helper meals that require milk mixed in with ground beef, I have no idea where "all 613 laws" comment comes from anyways because not all of us are farmers, warriors, mother's, young children, nor priests, men cannot follow laws of women and vise versa so you're really not following all 613

[@Hebrew42Day]

"no we never gave that command." Does God have partiality? Rom 2:11 KJV For there is no respect of persons with God. "They cannot keep the law" *Which law* ? The heavy burden cannot be Torah. (Deut 30:11) "God permitted him to eat every kind of meat" The gentiles who twist this should be glad Noah didn't interpret as they do. How many unclean animals were on the ark? 2. What would happen if Noah ate pork sandwiches? No more pigs. "You may sell it to the alien" The alien wasn't a Covenant keeper, like those described in the Bible as sojourning with the Jews were told what? Num 15:16. One law for the Jew and one for the foreigners. Not two sets of rules. Not two paths to salvation. What the Christians preach today is the gospel of Simon Magus.

[@unlikelyprophet3260]

He who speaks against the law of God is a false prophet

[@boltingpuppies]

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word,they have no light of dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

[@jamesandhannahmanderino3665]

Great job, David Wilbur. To know all the information is one thing, to be prepared to present it in this kind of format was skillful. Thank you for sharing. Have you been asked to debate anyone else? -James

[@K1NG_D0ME]

ALL meats huh? Soooo do me a favor and eat a poison dart frog. Lol or go eat ANY toxic animal or bug. It's obvious there are stipulations on what is edible and what isnt. Thats jus using common sense.

[@indo3052]

Does tony realize how already keeps 95% of torah that’s applicable to him?

[@BiblicalResearch777]

Tony lost this debate.. Wilbur refutes every major point that Tony made, yet tony continued to kind of beat the dead horse on his points.. I think the church as a whole completely misses the fact that pharasees didn’t keep the Torah only parts of it and created an oral tradition for salvation and many other things commonly known today as the Talmud. Tony goes to straw man arguments such as stoning and others yet Wilbur pointed out that there is no temple, and no government that is set up to bring these small issues forward..God says over and over his law is easy, perfect for converting the soul etc... it’s just so sad that people ignore Gods word to live in the fantasy of etch e sketch Christianity.

[@andrewlailvaux1571]

You break one law you break them all. People that believe Christians should be observant to Torah have a very poor understanding of God's Word.

[@Amazingfilms148]

@@andrewlailvaux1571 Jesus kept the Torah, Paul kept the Torah, and the early Christians kept the Torah. So yeah, keeping the torah isn't sinful.

[@kristicormier9435]

Andrew Lailvaux if keeping Torah is your means of salvation that passage would apply. However that concept shows why we all need a messiah who himself was able to perfectly live Torah and was given the authority to raise believers at the resurrection. If, through belief in Messiah, i have died to sin and I am no longer under the curse of the second death, shouldn't I want to know the Father's heart and mind and walk as He has directed through his spoken word (Torah) so that I'm not either on purpose or through ignorance sinning? Wouldn't the deposit of the spirit be guiding me to walk as Jesus walk? Didn't he walk Torah which is why he was considered perfect by the Father? I am not trying to live out Torah to be saved, but because I am saved I live by the spirit and as I turn from sin I am hoping that what my life produces is the fruit of the spirit.

[@boltingpuppies]

@@kristicormier9435 Love what you wrote, Kristi.

[@boltingpuppies]

When people bring up the stoning it makes me sad too, like they aren't realizing that 'all authority' has been given to the Son, that the Son is the judge. Even under the Levitical priesthood random people weren't picking up stones and stoning people. A trial took place, a judgement was issued *by the judge*/priest. Now the priest is Melchizedek and He will pass judgement on judgement day. Why do they ask if *we* stone people? We don't have the right or authority to carry out a judgement. Only Yeshua, the perfect Lamb, has the right and authority to carry out judgement. We are to separate from one who calls himself a brother while living in sin, in hopes that it will bring about reconciliation.

[@2witnesseswatch917]

*First* of all, there is no such thing as OLD TESTAMENT. This is an invention of man to hinder believers from following the TaNaKh (Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim - Instruction, Prophets and Writings) - Truly known as *The HOLY SCRIPTURES* . You would do well to refrain from referring to the HOLY SCRIPTURES as an -Old Testament- *Second* Calling believers Judaizers. " *Don't be a judaizer" is an anti-semetic catch phrase the emissaries of the constantine government used to stigmatize the weak believers in Messiah in the 4th century* . Since prior to the 'council of Laodicea' they were ruining/torturing/eliminating the lives of believers who refused to conform to their "convert to our pagan form of worship or die approach", the amount of believers willing or able to take a stand against this so called 'council' were limited. They eliminated as much as they could from the Holy Scriptures and good sound doctrine by the help of this 'catch phrase' which is the same as saying don't use Jewish names, don't say things like a Jewish person, don't do things Jewish people do, and just don't be like a Jewish person at all. This is why they substituted a Spanish name: Jesus, based upon a Greek word iesous, for His God given name. The name Jesus has nothing to do with the name YeHoVaH Saves, Yehoshua. To make the argument clear on this matter, we have Joshua the son of Nun translated in the Holy Scriptures from the word Yehoshua. Why does the Bible omit this word for our Savior? Because their influence on society from the 4th century still until this day impresses upon people this concept "Don't be a judaizer", Don't be like a Jew. The name Yeshua means Savior, salvation or saves. That is why I refer to our Messiah as Yeshua or Yehoshua (YeHoVaH saves). I will never condemn anyone for saying the name Jesus. I experienced His saving hand when I first began to ask the Father to save me from my sins, and said: Jesus save me! He heard me and began to save from my sins, and He will not shun anyone for saying that name. However, for me to put things in proper perspective and walk in truth I call Him Yeshua. Yeshua is also the contracted version of Yehoshua. *Third* The handwriting of ordinances = traditions of men, commandments of men, the oral torah, the additions of the pharisees to the real Torah called takkanah (takkanot plural). Yeshua condemned these additions to Torah with many demonstrations. These are some of the Miracles of Yeshua Messiah demonstrating to common folk and the Pharisees of the invalidity of Talmudic takkanot. Only the TaNaKh (Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim AKA The Holy Scriptures) is sanctioned by The Most High. He said to not add to it nor take away from it. Below are just a few examples of how Yeshua condemned the Pharisee's Takkanot. Takkanot are listed on the right after the arrow ---> 1 John 2:1-11 Turn water into great tasting wine ---> Filled with ceremonial water 2 Matt 12:9-14 Heals a man’s withered hand on Shabbat ---> Healing on Shabbat 3 John 5:1-15 Heals a man lame for 38 years ---> Healing on Shabbat, Picking up your bed mat on Shabbat 4 John 9:1-12 Heals a Man Born Blind on Shabbat ---> Healing on Shabbat, Mixes saliva and makes mud, Puts saliva on blind man's eyes, walk more than a Shabbat Day's journey 5 Luke 13:10-17 Heals a Crippled Woman on Shabbat ---> Healing on Shabbat 6 Luke 14:1-6 Heals a Man With Dropsy on the Sabbath ---> Healing on Shabbat 7 Matt 7:1-9 Invalidates the oral torah with statements ---> ceremonial hand washing 8 Matt 15:1-9 Invalidates the oral torah with statements ---> telling your parents helping them is a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free There is no commandment found in the Holy Scriptures to not heal on the Sabbath day. False prophet Yu takes every scripture of Paul out of context, ignoring valid points David makes, not addressing them, and then he makes snide comments about those trusting the WORD and thereby loving God with all their thoughts, all their beings, and with everything they possess, making a mockery of The Holy Scriptures: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Yeshua Messiah. (2Tim 3:15)

[@PercussionistCorner]

David Wilbert, with your opening statement alone ended this debate. Thank you and Shalom

[@dgoll6538]

Addressing Peter: In Acts 10:9-16, Peter was informed by God through a vision that he was not to reject the use of certain animals for food on a religious basis. The apostle Paul also writes, “For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer” (1 Timothy 4:4).

[@drummersagainstitk]

Thank You Tony. Great job.

[@Hebrew42Day]

Replacement theology. (Not the kind that makes the church replace Israel) churchianity, Belief that faith in Jesus makes you without sin. Bible, our actions make us without sin. 1 Jo 3:4-10 They take verses out of context, he kept repeating Matt 5:18, and missed a key word. *ALL* is fulfilled. Has *ALL* been fulfilled? Romans 3:31 Do we then abolish the law by faith? CERTAINLY NOT.

[@k.miller5015]

Some Christians actually believe that if you even try follow all of God’s commandments you will go to Hell. This is what happens when you twist the word of God. The unpardonable sin is to follow God's ways??? The enemy must be loving how this deception is being accepted in the church.

[@amsterdamG2G]

so sad

[@justinmacaluso8712]

For real though

[@adamguy33]

The unpardonable sin is rejecting Jesus as the Christ

[@liorajimenez3085]

Mr. Yu should do a scripture review of the following words: º FOREVER º GENERATIONS º IF Next, I would suggest that he figure out WHO is GRAFTED into WHOM. IMO, Mr. Yu is to be avoided

[@kimberlymartinez8824]

This was a very good debate. I love how Josh praised you both for sticking to the rules. You did and Tony did because in one way or another- we're rule keepers. It's hard to hear the things he (Tony) said because of what we now know. He did a lot of twisting but he doesn't know it's twisted.

[@xUncleA123x]

This just makes me so much happier to be truly in Messiah and keeping His Torah... It means that I don't have a mind that twists the scriptures so much to say that keeping God's Holy Law takes you to hell... Thank you Yah for saving me from the influence of this antichrist reading of Scripture.

[@leonardhunt7241]

@xUncleA123x I surmise that you may not be keeping the Messiah’s Torah during the time of the Gentiles! Yes 🙌 at Christ’s return to earth he will reinstate the temple observances, but not during the time of the Gentiles. This is a difficult understanding. Let me explain please 🙏. Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16-17 ‘For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John’ ‘The Law and the prophets were until John; Since That Time the kingdom of God is preached …’ ‘It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one 1️⃣ tittle of the law [ not the Mt Sinai Law, but the kingdom of God Luke 16:16 Law ] to fail.’ The Ten Commandments Law - You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself Exodus 20:3-11, 20:12-17 - gives eternal life Luke 10:25-28. The kingdom of God Law giving Eternal Life is love your neighbor as yourself Exodus 20:12-17, not also Exodus 20:3-11 from You shall have no other gods before me to Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, and the punishments attached to each. Other commandments Jesus gave to lead to maturity such as in Matthew 19:21-22; Hebrews 6:9 things that accompany salvation; Philippians 2:12-13 work out your own salvation … .

[@xUncleA123x]

@@leonardhunt7241 The Torah and the Torah of Messiah as a whole are both applicable at all times. Obviously circumstances like not having the temple to fulfill the temple laws mean you cannot apply the specific commandments associated with that, but we should be keeping all the laws applicable to us in our time.

[@BeUnique94-v1i]

Every scripture that he brought up were about us not being saved by the law or under the yoke of earning our salvation through keeping Torah. Yet, we are told that faith without works is dead. We show our faith through our obedience. I don't know any Torah observant Christian who claims that it is necessary for salvation. However, obedience is better than sacrifice.

[@melissa7777]

I dont think its a debate, Torah keeping is Gods will. Its not about what we want, its about becoming righteous because God is righteous. The bible states we left Torah because of our sin, so no Torah is like saying yes, lets stay in our sin... Gods calling people to keep Torah, its happening all over the world I hope you're one of the many who hears his call and repents, and if you missed it, seek him on where you need to heal your heart so you can hear him. We need to stop following our will and seek Gods.

[@ChildofYHVHforever]

Good job, David Wilbur. That could have gone on for days had the time not been so short. Paul is hard to understand because he is using the good and holy law lawfully to present what has always been true which is justification by faith. So many don't get it. Tony seems like a genuine man who believes what he is saying. I used to even think the way that he does so I truly understand where he is coming from. But he is in error, sadly. That was NEVER the purpose of the law. It is instructions for living His Way. How to love God and others. Humans over complicate things. The question is which kingdom do you walk in?

[@Shalometh]

Both the old and the New Testament say constantly to keep his commandments and feasts forever

[@sergey_suranov]

Good work, David. Yahweh writes his Tora on our hearts...

[@K1NG_D0ME]

Woah... Tony lost the debate at his very first point. He completely left out the "till heaven and Earth pass away" part. He literally skipped it... So as to avoid saying that the law cannot pass until HEAVEN AND EARTH pass away and all be fulfilled. He instead said the law will not pass, and the heavens and Earth will not pass until all be fulfilled. So even in his interpretation, the law can't pass until after the heavens and Earth pass.

[@mightylove]

Are you keeping ALL the laws?

[@nathanieldiaz2845]

@@mightylove Justification vs Saintification.... this is a very important distinction I feel many on both side miss. The law was never given as a mean for Justification. And that was Paul's main argument, but in regards to Saintification, Paul tells us to keep it. Not that we will keep it perfectly but that is what we aim for, knowing that God's grace will take care of where we mess up.

[@michaelmulvaney1492]

While I do lean towards David's position, I'm going to give Tiny some credit here. The man is still passionate in defending the gospel and cares that the body of Messiah is kept safe. Even if he does not see things the exact same way we do.

[@boltingpuppies]

But is he defending the gospel? Is it the same gospel? He's ultimately saying we're saved from our sin in order to be able to sin. He's saying there is no law. He's saying God cleansed all food and we (whether jew or gentile) can eat unclean animals...even though scripture clearly says that at His coming Yeshua will *destroy* those eating unclean animals. (Isaiah 66) Doing away with the law is not something that keeps the sheep safe, it leads them into lawlessness which can cause them to fall away from the faith and be cast away (John 15)(1Corinthians 9:27)(Matthew 7:13-27). Many won't even realize they are rejected until judgement day according to Yeshua when He tells them they are being castaway because they are *lawless.* Tony's gospel (just believe, Jesus kept the law for you so you don't have to) doesn't protect the body of Messiah or keep it safe. The man of lawlessness has that title for a reason. I feel genuinely sick for Tony Yu. He's being deceived and deceiving others.

[@nickylouse2]

Tony does see things the way we do. He just doesn't realize it. He says we are "saved" (meaning justified) by grace through faith. That is true. But he conflates matters of sanctification with those of justification. He does not seem to want to parse the two. That is part and parcel the big misunderstanding between Torah-observant people and those who are not.

[@primafacie40]

Tony Yu is the iconic contemporary, mainstream, non denominational, evangelical Christian. Christianity itself is false because it usurps the commandments of God for the traditions of men. It’s astonishing how hypocritical it is. Don’t obey the law yet they use the law to call out and identify sin all while ignoring and dismissing the Sabbath law simply because it’s inconvenient. Yu is right in line with the false faith of Christianity.

[@isacnoel4326]

Poor Tony 😔. We still love you sir, you tried and we appreciate your willingness. May יהוה bless you sir.

[@gngraves]

I actually think Tony brought a great case and won even though I favored and agreed more with David.

[@strengthenyourbones825]

Great job David. Praise The LORD

[@amaples93]

For anyone who’s struggling with this, like I was for months, I suggest backing away from stuff like this, and man’s interpretation. We have been handed down a lens to see scripture through. In order to see it for what it really says, you have to take away the lens you look through and put your hands up to God asking him to lead you. And just read the Word as if you’ve never heard a thing about it. Also, remember that one phrase can have multiple meanings…context is essential. I made a board of scripture and planned on putting verses up on one side for Torah and the other for no torah. And I studied for myself. On the ones I was stumped on, then I cautiously looked for someone’s interpretation. I ended up with all of it on one side only. Once it clicked for me, it all made sense as a whole. Acts 15:19-21 is the one that made the shift for me.

[@iggreene9512]

I wonder what Ezekiel chapters 40 and on, discussing the millennial reign and the Levites, shabbat, sacrifices, new moons, feasts play into Tony's argument. I'm also curious why this is never mentioned in these debates both public and private.

[@nathanieldiaz2845]

I bring that up in conversations. Usually the response is silence. People that are from the A-millennial group, tend to make it super allegorical. Anyone else gets agisn super silent.

[@timomarieshely]

What do you think about this will occur during the millennial reign but not beyond ?

[@boltingpuppies]

@@timomarieshely God made an eternal covenant with the Levites. The Levites will sacrifice during the millennium and it seems on into eternity in the new earth (scriptures below)....but the sacrifices _do_ change. From the Mosaic sacrifices to the millennial sacrifices to the eternal sacrifices there are changes in each age. In the millennial kingdom there will be sacrifices, including sin sacrifices (which I know can sound odd)(Ezekiel 40-46). Those sin sacrifices do not remove sin (they never did in the past and they will not in the future). Remember, where there is forgiveness of sin, there is no more sacrifice....people who have been in the resurrection/rapture who have new sinless bodies are already in the new covenant and already have our actual sin removing sacrifice, Yeshua who is also our High Priest). Those entering into the millennial kingdom in their sinful flesh (their sin has not been forgiven yet) will have sin sacrifices performed. Again, those sacrifices do not save/actually remove sin but they point to Christ and also seem to have something to do with purification while God is here on this earth in our midst. I'm still studying this deep topic. We'll see more clearly then. In the New Heaven and New Earth (which is the home of righteousness) there is no longer any sin. No sin, no death. Those sin sacrifices cease. But does the Levitical priesthood cease once the new earth (eternal age) comes? Look at this fascinating passage. Jeremiah 33:14-22 ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: ‘In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David A Branch of righteousness; He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ “For thus says the LORD: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; *nor* shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ” And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, *and* with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant *and* the Levites who minister to Me.’ ” Still studying all of this. God bless us.

[@pogueatl]

And I'm a Christian, not Hebrew roots, I'm really tired of people lumping everyone into the same group, I am a whole Bible believing Christian who believes the we follow the law, feasts, diet, Sabbaths

[@dgoll6538]

The Bible says, “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).

[@pogueatl]

He needs to learn the definition of fulfill which doesn't mean what he thinks, but to pack it full, raise it up, pack it to the fullest, it doesn't mean finish or end

[@jdub7101]

Tony lost in the first 3 minutes 🤦‍♂️ Was he listening to his own contradictions?

[@Eleazar1A2]

The sad thing about the 2nd guy’s arguments is that he sees the “Law” of GOD as being against us. But it says that the Law is Just ,is right, is perfect, is Holy. The Hebrew word Torah means teachings on how to live righteously. Teaching us how to do and be. But what was against us is the “punishment “ of going outside these laws. Which punishment was taken away by Messiah paying the price for us, for all who believe. Also if we Love Him , we will keep his commandments. It will not be a burden for us, but a joy because those “Laws” are now written on our hearts. They are part of us and not an issue at all. So based on a false premise, the 2nd guy’s whole argument is false !

[@mightylove]

Which laws are you referring to that Christians are to keep? Are you also including the trimming of hair/beards, touching unclean things/people, stoning adulterers/thieves?

[@JustThinkingAboutIt-i5k]

David proved once again that salvation doesn't come by keeping the law; but not matter how many times he says it; his opponents keeps coming back to it over and over; Its because its all they have. Good job David, got your book on the Sabbath

[@gtupulua]

THANK YOU TONY! JESUS COMPLETED THE LAW. OUR NEW BIRTH IS SPIRIT & THOSE WHO WORSHIPS GOD WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT & IN TRUTH. WE WALK IN THE SPIRIT SO WE DONT FULFILL THE LUST OF FLESH. THANK YOU JESUS FOR THE FINISH WORK! HALLELUIAH! ❤️

[@Truth.Is.Intolerant]

Question. What does walking in the Spirit look like? Does it look like lawlessness? Or does it look like obediance to the law?

[@jirehseiuli6173]

But the thing is what is spirit and truth ? Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness and your law is the truth Romans Romans 7:14-16 For we know that the law is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not for what I would that do I not; but what I hate that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent to the law THAT IT IS GOOD and Paul also said in Romans 16:19 For your obedience is made abroad to all men I am glad therefore on your behalf but I would still make you wise to that which is GOOD and simple concerning evil

[@leebarry5181]

Acts 15:5,10 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.” Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? Enough said.

[@paulcohen6727]

Expiration date of the law? I thought God doesn't change his mind. The entire Bible is valid according to Matt. 4:4 and 2 Tim. 3:16 and others. Christians want to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow.

[@Snowymoon14]

I have to keep in mind that Jesus was speaking to his followers which came out of the Jewish tradition So basically what I hear him saying when he said I didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it not only did he fulfill God's laws perfectly but he is also telling us go ahead and keep your culture I came to fulfill the gaps to give you salvation later Paul says the gentiles are not required to keep those laws The carpet or the veil in the temple was ripped into upon jesus's death I believe following Torah as a non-Jewish Jesus follower would put me in rejection of the Jesus I love... I personally feel this movement is a cult and I have seen friends disappear into this dark hole away from Christ away from God I believe it is not of God and I pray for people getting caught up in it

[@Ken-rb7gq]

I totally agree... For me it would be a sin if I were to follow everything that was written in the Mosaic Law...

[@AngelofFaithHopeLove]

Wow, Tony took scripture way out of context and even was dishonest in presenting it in his closing statement but unless you know the scripture, you wouldn't know.

[@truthnottradition7]

That is the basic fact that everyone misses. We simply don't know the Bible and is why we fall for doctrines / traditions of men. Him taking Act 10 out of context just made me cringe.. 😑

[@nohemiramirez9909]

Great job David. Well said!! Keep up the good work!!

[@unlikelyprophet3260]

If yeshua ever spoke against law he was sinning according to God he never sinned also priests would have had a legitimate reason to kill him no false witnesses needed

[@yahsworld2940]

Yep, same goes for Stephen and Paul after Him. That's the sad irony of the usual christian interpretation of the NT

[@Rycait2]

After watching Yu I forgot how ignorant of the Bible I was before studying Hebraic Roots. Thanks for this debate, if not for the Hebraic Roots I’d still be as un knowledgeable as Yu in the scriptures. Sorry Yu.

[@wjameswright]

I am starting a Messianic radio station online can i use the audio from this?

[@DavidWilberBlog]

Go for it! I'd just ask that on your program you invite folks to check out my website for my info on my perspective. davidwilber.me/

[@nicoarnold2200]

I think this issue stands or fall by our understanding of the new covenant. If the new covenant is 'new' and not an 'improvement' of the previous covenant, than I would argue that the old mosaic law also fell away with the old covenant. Also, if we are not under the law but have to keep the law, according to David, than he is saying that we should keep it and that there will be no punishment for not keeping it - this does not make it a law then.

[@boltingpuppies]

The new covenant is indeed new but that doesn't mean the new covenant doesn't have any of the same elements. (same God, same people, same laws) God said of the new covenant that He would write His (God's) laws in our hearts and then put His Spirit inside of us and cause us to walk them (His laws) out. God's laws would no longer be written externally on stone tablets but on the fleshly tablets of our hearts. The new covenant is new and better because He has given us His Spirit and put His laws inside of us instead of outside of us. The new covenant was sealed with different blood, the blood of the actual lamb of God. These are better promises. Yeshua is an eternal sacrifice and an eternal priest. This is all new and better. We enter into God's covenant through faith in Yeshua. He then puts His Spirit in us and causes us to walk out His commandments. If we fail, we have an advocate, Yeshua. If we confess our sins (transgressions of His law), then He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. *But what if Satan convinces us there is no law, that we can do what is right in our own eyes?* We will be picking and choosing which laws we decide are still valid...but it's not up to us. The man of lawlessness is called that for a reason. The saints are defined as those who: keep the commandments of God AND faith in Jesus (Revelation 14). We are so close to the end that people think Satan is deceiving us into OBEYING God's commandments! Yeah, that's what Satan wants....for us to obey God's commandments.

[@randyblankenship4000]

There is a punishment for not keeping. Scripture tells us that SIN is transgression of the law. God punishes sin. Keeping the law does not save you don’t keep the law to be saved you keep the law because you are saved it is the evidence and fruit of your salvation . If you don’t keep it then you were never saved by grace through faith to start with.

[@nicoarnold2200]

@@randyblankenship4000 Sin is the transgression of the law, not the law of Moses. What is the law in the new covenant? The law of Christ obviously. Trying to keep the law of Moses in the new covenant is like trying to keep middle school laws in your first job or trying to keep kindergarten rules in high school... it is just not applicable anymore.

[@no1djkb]

I left Christianity years ago. I don't have a religion. I have a personal relationship with the most high and his son. I can't believe at the end of this debate Tony did not read Galatians correctly. He put law in where it was not supposed to go Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. Tony please don't misquote scripture to get your point across. I hope you did that by mistake

[@wesleyogilvie8105]

Paul prophesied teachers like Tony in 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

[@ZachReifsnider]

Again, all the arguments to not obey the law are from Paul. If one read the entire Bible without Paul, what would the conclusion about the law be?

[@paulcohen6727]

I used to follow the Christian tradition until one day I read in Revelations: "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring-those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." A couple of chapters later, I read :This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." Where to church people get their teaching on how to behave? Not from the Bible; they get it by looking around and seeing what other people in the church are doing. But, shall we follow God or men?

[@BeUnique94-v1i]

@47:00 if Noah had been eating alleats right after the flood, there would be no more of unclean animals. God only had Noah bring two of every unclean animal, and way more of the clean animals. If Noah had immediately eaten a horse, for example, it would leave one other horse with no mate or offspring. Noah did bring extras of clean birds, ruminates, and other clean animals. The obvious implication being that it was those clean animals he would eat and sacrifice, as some were also for that. The very fact that God instructed Noah to bring extra of clean animals, and Noah didn't ask what those were, imply somehow he already knew God's law

[@epitt22]

Ugh…why don’t people read on. That was to show Peter that he could hang out with those that ate unclean food. An unclean bird is mentioned in Revelation. Pork has human DNA in it. The church doesn’t have everything right.

[@ScottRachelson777]

Tony Yu is a sharp guy, very astute, and very persuasive. Thanks for debating him. Adam Clarke Commentary: Verse Hebrews 7:12. The priesthood being changed - That is, The order of Aaron being now abrogated, to make way for that which had preceded it, the order of Melchisedec. There is made of necessity a change also of the law. - The very essence of the Levitical law consisting in its sacrificial offerings; and as these could not confer perfection, could not reconcile God to man, purify the unholy heart, nor open the kingdom of heaven to the souls of men, consequently, it must be abolished, according to the order of God himself; for he said, Sacrifice and offering, and burnt-offering, and sacrifice for sin, he would not; see Psalms 40:6; Psalms 40:7, compared with Hebrews 10:5-10, and with Psalms 110:4, where it is evident God designed to change both the law and the priesthood, and to introduce Jesus as the only Priest and Sacrifice, and to substitute the Gospel system for that of the Levitical institutions. The priesthood, therefore, being changed, Jesus coming in the place of Aaron, the law of ordinances and ceremonies, which served only to point out the Messiah, must of necessity be changed also.

[@Kanthon]

When Jesus said “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,” I asked myself ‘Disciples of what? What did that mean to those he was talking to at the time?’ I can only come to one conclusion. Jesus said to make disciples of Torah. That’s the only possible answer.

[@InvisibleCitizen]

Aren’t the questions; Should a Jew who is a Christian, keep the Torah? And! Should a Gentile who is a Christian, keep the Torah?

[@benjaminthompson7474]

Mr Wilber, I am talking to my Christian friends about Torah keeping, trying to point then to the truth and goodness of keeping the Law of God. I'm trying to learn how to well present what the Bible says about it, and explain their seeming "proof texts" from a Messianic Jewish point of view. What good sources would you suggest? Also, thank you for the debate , and for speaking the Truth! I did learn a lot from watching you debate

[@DavidWilberBlog]

A great resource is J.K. McKee's book, "The New Testament Validates Torah." Also Tim Hegg's book, "Why We Keep Torah: 10 Persistent Questions." Hope those help!

[@Nazarene_Judaism]

It's settled here Acts 21:21-25