DEBATE: w Jordan B. Cooper | Lutheran Debates Catholic on Justification

From Pints with Aquinas (5/14/2021).
Jimmy Akin and Dr. Jordan Cooper debate justification.
Learn more about Jimmy: jimmyakin.com/
Learn more about Jordan: www.jordanbcooper.com/

[@scsteeldrums]

Jimmy, thank you for uploading your debates. Your conversational charity is a light for someone like myself who is prone to trying to "demolish an opponent" rather than "converse with a friend."

[@rostomnaseri9708]

Jesus is not a Lord..Jesus used to eat food and go to the bathroom and pray and ask God for help...Know who your true God is and don't worship a person like you who gets the shit out of his ass

[@lawtalkwithluigi8897]

I suffer from that same problem. I lose myself in the "debate" rather than remembering that I should be charitable and consider the other person's soul. Good point Alan.

[@Swissguard5esp]

why not demolish a friend? (lol)

[@ab5879]

At the beginning, there was a statement made about not fighting over the meaning of words. That there should be understanding that when one side uses a word, it has a different meaning or is being used in a way that the other side would not. I think that's where the confusion lies. It only sounds like agreement. Practically, there is not. I think if you really wanted to delve into the differences, then the conversation should have been largely on Trent and the Confutation of Augsburg.

[@sharonchristine664]

Thanks Be To God that I'm "Lumped into the category" of being a Catholic, The UNIVERSAL CHURCH that OUR LORD JESUS THE CHRIST Founded.

[@sburton1971]

We are the only Bible based, non denominational Church. Amen!

[@rostomnaseri9708]

Jesus is not a Lord..Jesus used to eat food and go to the bathroom and pray and ask God for help...Know who your true God is and don't worship a person like you who gets the shit out of his ass

[@ohmikeodd]

The catholic church is getting exposed for racial genocide in Canada recently. You want to be lumped in with that?

[@specialteams28]

Me too

[@Purcella13]

God gave us free will, so I love you also as a child in Christ our Lord. I am looking into the Life of Martin Luther and find it very interesting that he was a highly regarded Catholic priest

[@christianRafaelCasti]

I learned so much from this, opened my mind. I'd love to hear more about Jesus being tested rather than tempted

[@rostomnaseri9708]

Jesus is not a Lord..Jesus used to eat food and go to the bathroom and pray and ask God for help...Know who your true God is and don't worship a person like you who gets the shit out of his ass

[@noahdixon885]

So many times throughout this conversation have I forgotten that Matt was there. It was as if he was third wheeling in the conversation😂

[@oaf-77]

I can’t agree with everything in Lutheran theology, but I did like Davey and Goliath

[@jamesbreslin3276]

It was only in the last few minutes that the real disagreement surfaced where what is meant in Lutheran parlance by Just and Sinner and what RCs mean by possessing Concupiscence, which is not itself Sin. Justice for Lutherans is always Christ's, never ours. It seems that we are declared Righteous as if the Righteousness we have is not really ours by nature but is given to us when we believe. It is always Christ's.

[@johnperiera1036]

The World Lutheran Federation is far left. It doesn't have as members the orthodox Lutheran denominations, so I'm not sure why anyone would consider the Joint Decree significant.

[@existentialzenji918]

This is a fair point. Also, the Joint Decree isn't even an official Roman Catholic position. It's purely about ecumenism.

[@Rob-mr1vk]

@@existentialzenji918 This kind of behaviour as we see it today upon the trend thereof under the guise of making friends with other religions in the name of ecumenism is what make Catholic an expression of embracing the world rather than the opposite. Sad. I mean if you try to understand other's position rather than hold firm in the deposit of faith this what diminishes our faith, hope and truest in God and in so doing Charity is no longer our purpose except tolerance. Tolerance was preached in the garden.

[@voyager7]

Exactly. The JDDJ intentionally and by design utilizes terms with fluid definitions to accommodate the two sides without requiring either to accept the other.

[@Defender_of_Faith]

They are in agreement as it is written in the catechism of the Catholic church Church which is not vague. The agreement is that faith on an intellectual level does not save. There is more to it than simply saying you believe Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins. Even demons acknowledge that. So something about the Christian Faith has to be more the faith even demons have.

[@voyager7]

@@Defender_of_Faith The Lutheran position on faith has NEVER been in a manner as you describe. The JDDJ is exactly what I've said, using floating definitions that accommodate both sides of the historical divide. If you still don't believe that there is a substantial difference not just in terms, but with respect to Justification itself, I'd suggest you look at the Book of Concord and Martin Chemnitz Loci Theologici or his Examination of the Council of Trent.

[@mirando100]

Who speaks for the children's of german Luther?

[@mirando100]

Mr Cooper speaks "his own personal opinion" . Another nonsense that Mr Cooper said is that they don't follow Luther (then rename your name denomination to "whatever Lutherans we are",

[@andrewborchelt305]

We didn't call ourselves Lutherans. Our Roman Catholic opponents gave us that name as a label of heresy. While the name "Lutheran" has stuck, we prefer the terms Evangelical Catholic or Augsburg Catholic. In the same way Catholics don't have to agree with everything Aquinas (or any doctor of the church) has ever said, our beliefs are defined by our confessions not Luther himself.

[@UnderstandChristianity]

Lutherans dont follow Luther. If you want to know what Lutheran believe go to the Book of Concord. Yes some of Luthers writings are found in there but a ton are left out. So, to say that Lutherans follow Luther is wrong

[@JohnVianneyPatron]

If there is all this agreement and the differences are only nuances, why not get rid of the "sola fides" doctrine.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Why not get rid of the Papacy doctrine?

[@JohnVianneyPatron]

@@Mygoalwogel One (the Papacy) is biblical, the other (sola scriptura) not!

[@Mygoalwogel]

@@JohnVianneyPatron According to St. Cyprian, "Thou art Peter" etc. does not refer to the Roman papacy, but to the local bishops who preach, baptize, absolve, and commune. In contrast, Sola Scriptura, righly comprehended is very well attested in Scripture. This is what Sola Scriptura means: Matthew 1:1 Matthew is Scripture. Matthew 5:17 Even Christ never abolished the things written in the Law and Prophets. No church may either. Mk 1:1 Mark is Scripture. Luke 1:4 *Scripture is what gives certainty of doctrine.* Luke is Scripture. John 5:39 *We have eternal life from the Scriptures because they bear witness about Christ.* John 10:35 *Scripture cannot be broken or invalidated.* John 15:20 *No one may contradict or neglect the Apostles and be a Christian.* John 17:20 *The word of the Apostles is the source of true faith.* John 20:31 *The Gospel of John alone is enough to tell us what to believe so that we can have life in Jesus' name.* John 22:24 *The Gospel of John is a true testimony. No authority may contradict it.* Acts 17:11 *We are to examine the Scriptures daily to see if anything taught as doctrine is true.* Acts 24:14 *We are to believe everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets.* Romans 15:4 Scripture was written for our instruction to encourage us and give us hope. 1 Corinthians 12:28 *All other overseers, teachers and servants in the Church come after the Apostles in priority.* 1 Corinthians 14:37 *If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he must acknowledge that the things Paul wrote to us are a command of the Lord.* 2 Corinthians 1:13 Paul did not write anything other than what lay people of Corinth and Achaia could read and understand. Some partially understand; some fully understand. Paul will boast of all on the day of the Lord. Galatians 1:8 *No one may contradict what the Apostles preached.* Galatians 1:20 Paul did not lie in what he wrote. Galatians 3:22 *The Scripture imprisoned everything else under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.* Eph 2:20 The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the Church and the faith with Christ as cornerstone. All other authorities must build on that foundation and no other. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 *We are to firmly hold to the teachings of the Apostles. They are the only true standard by which other teachers and doctrines are to be judged. I challenge anyone to identify an oral Apostolic teaching that is not written in the New Testament.* 2 Thessalonians 3:14 *We are to admonish and give the silent treatment to anyone who does not obey Paul’s epistles until they become rightly ashamed of themselves.* 1 Timothy 3:14-15 *This letter tells us who may and may not become overseers and deacons, and how the Church is to be godly. This godliness is unchanging.* 1 Timothy 4:13 We are to devote ourselves to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 2 Timothy 3:15 The scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. 2 Timothy 3:16 Scripture is profitable for correction in righteousness. *No doctrine that isn't supportable by scripture may correct scripture or render it unprofitable. Scripture is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.* 2 Timothy 3:17 *Scripture makes preachers (men of God) complete. Scripture fully equips preachers for every good work.* 1 Peter 1:25 *The Gospel of the Apostles is the word of the Lord and it endures forever.* 1 Peter 5:12 This letter is the true grace of God. We must stand firm in it. 2 Peter 1:19 *Individuals do not interpret Scripture. The Apostles confirm and interpret the prophetic word of Old and New Testament Scripture.* 2 Peter 3:2 We are to obey the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through his apostles. 2 Peter 3:16 The ignorant and unstable who twist the scriptures do so to their own destruction. Paul's Epistles are Scripture. 1 John 1:3-4 *The eye-witness writings of the Apostles are what give us fellowship with the Apostles, with the Father, and with His Son.* 1 John 4:6 *The Apostles are from God. Whoever knows God listens to the words of the Apostles; whoever is not from God does not believe the Apostles. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.* Hebrews 4:12 *The word of God judges the reader and the Church, not vice versa. The Epistle to the Hebrews has done this since the first time it was read.* James 2:8 Love of neighbor as taught by scripture is enough to keep us busy for the rest of our lives.

[@JohnVianneyPatron]

@@Mygoalwogel (1) Only doctrine clearly stated in the bible is to be held with faith. (2) Sola Scriptura is a doctrine (3) Ergo, to be believed it must be found in scripture. -Please quote the verse that teaches sola scriptura??? At least we have "Thou art Peter", let's see what you have. BTW: I'd really appreciate you sharing the source of St Cyprian's supposed quote.

[@PolishPrince2]

@@JohnVianneyPatron You seem fine to believe a doctrine based on one verse that doesnt even come close to saying what you think it does. @Mygoalwogel just hit you with a tidal wave of easy to understand verses and you write 'lets see what you have' curious what more you would want as evidence for establihing a doctrine.

[@treycastle9119]

Is this new or old?

[@glof2553]

Mid 2021. About 6 months to a year old

[@JimmyAkin]

I'm setting up a new playlist, so I'm uploading debate-related content from the last year or two.

[@johnjon1823]

It's 500 or so years old, but the issue was settled in 33AD it's just some people are resistant to the keeper of the keys.

[@Jm20375]

@@johnjon1823 it’s funny that when you say keeper of the keys you mean…. Drum roll please… Pope Francis. Womppp wompp.

[@johnjon1823]

@@Jm20375 Whomever the pope is, he is the one with the keys. The keeper of the keys changes, but not the power or authority of the keys. No drumroll or sound are effects needed, merely a scripture reading will suffice.

[@piercebales9546]

What kind of hair is best for a hair shirt? I say it's Airdale hair.