Debating Holly Lawford-Smith

[@Quillette]

Hi everyone- we apologise that Zoe’s audio is only coming out of the left speaker, which can be quite annoying if you’re listening with headphones. We apologise and will watch out for this error in future episodes!

[@MissNatalonga]

At 18:04, she's stating that the Scandinavian countries might not be doing the utmost to get rid of "gendered" socialization, but that's not even the point. The point is that after all those efforts at least you'd expect to see a trend of egalitarian results starting to happen, you'd hope see a tilt in that direction, however small. The fascinating thing is that directly the opposite is happening, so I don't understand how becoming more extreme with those policies would then bear the results these feminists are hoping for. I'm always so weary of utopians, man.

[@silviag.poratelli161]

You are exactly right. Needed to be pushed back there.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

Come on. You know by now it is utterly impossible that they are wrong.

[@annarboriter]

Amongst feminist ideologues, there is never enough women's equality

[@shanksmare8]

I've yet to meet a feminist who doesn't map her personal experiences onto a universal worldview that's foisted on everyone else. They have very little insight.

[@Merriwether-w8k]

They don't insight - plenty of robust data

[@explrr22]

I'm really impressed with the manor in which disagreement is processed in this debate. Not sure how much that's due to the character or personality of the participants and how much it ts because neither of their views is close to societal dominance. I could certainly live in a world where both these views were in productive intelligent competition. I find Holly Lawford-Smiths perspective case weaker, but she has a thread of epistemic humility that leads me to be okay, even with propositions i found weak. And i'd be okay if she can build a better case that persuaded me... The thing about certain strain of progressivism that seems wrong, is they seem to exempt humanity from a big share of biological evolution. All other creatures are fully evolved, but we've somehow been exempted by.... I don't understand what it is...I'm suspicious it is a holdover from religious concepts, especially given s level of conviction that seems to make it a default assumption that needs extraordinary evidence to refute. Shouldn't we just be more Baysian in our default assessment? I don't currently give best probability to a pure or stereotypical evo-psych framework in my thinking. I think theres's a better case in humans for a more co-evolution, gene-culture-enviroment process. However, that still leaves the psych an evolution shaped process. Without introducing a miracle, incalcuable odds or higher power, i don't see how you get a neurological system or psych exempt from evolution.

[@Quillette]

Thank you for watching and for your thoughtful comment

[@ullscarf]

Healthy disagreement! Exactly what the world needs.

[@frankenbeans6930]

“ I am anti-heterosexual sex because I think if it’s extraordinarily male centered and a form of domination.” Wow. This seems like a very confused position to hold.

[@LionKimbro]

If she thinks heterosexual sex is male centered, just wait until she sees what happens in gay homosexual sex..! She's in for a real shocker.

[@CableInformation]

It's too bad that Holly appears to lack the personal experience of strong women and every time that Zoe describes her experiences of empowerment - Holly redefines it as "gender non-conformity" rather than normal. The women in my family and life are usually quite strong and most commonly run the show. That unsupported redefinition paternalistically asserted by Holly slots women as perpetual victims rather than masters of their own destinies, IMHO. I really don't think that helps women and women rights as well as being largely unsupported in my experiences.

[@krillr_prawn]

Absolutely. I felt Holly lives in a very well maintained bubble force-field of her own ideas, using the indiscriminate broad stroke of gender conformity issues and anti-sex beliefs.

[@ConcernedCitizen117]

What about Hypergamy? It‘s odd the suggestion that more equality will be beneficial when women don’t date down (on money/social status etc). This means significant numbers of both genders will miss out on partnering, further decreasing our below replacement birth rates. Patriarchy seems to be necessary for a society to continue (likely due to Hypergamy) and all the feminist movement achieves is to ensure we are replaced by more patriarchal cultures (which is already happening through immigration). P.s. great stuff Zoe. At 13:50 though you might have pushed back with “Testosterone”.

[@courtneyharris1006]

patriarchy is the only functional mode of being because hypergamy is strong enough to collapse any nation. Quite the elephant in the room

[@silviag.poratelli161]

HLS really put me off when she explained how male centered heterosexual sex is. Is there good data supporting her opinion that most women don't enjoy it? Why is she using a one night stand as the paradigm of heterosexual sex?What about love? I don't know... I still have to listen to a feminist who doesn't sound like her whole viewpoint arises from some deep personal trauma. 😔

[@MegaGraceiscool]

Women don't usually orgasm in heterosexual PIV sex, which has been well documented. The dominant perspective of hetero sex should begin with the man eating out the woman, followed by PIV, but when people imagine male-female sex they only think of PIV, where the male is 99% likely to reach orgasm while the woman is extremely unlikely to. Women can enjoy sex without orgasming, but I think it's fair to point out that's kind of cope... orgasm is a big part of sex and it's weird that it's normalized for half the population to not reach it.

[@silviag.poratelli161]

@@MegaGraceiscool So many "shoulds" nowadays 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@emiliawisniewski3947]

@@MegaGraceiscool who is to say this doesn’t already happen? Or that women don’t desperately crave internal penetration by a penis? Given lesbian couples seek to emulate penetrative sex, that just goes to show you how deeply rooted it is. If women truly didn’t want or desire penetrative sex, our population would have died out Millenia ago. Holly is just being petulant with this anti-sex argument.

[@slide387]

@@MegaGraceiscool the "well documented" research you're referring to has varied considerably, likely to do with the fact many women may be interpreting "PIV" as "PIV without assistance" - when you poll women on whether they've been able to orgasm during "intercourse in general" and "assisted form", only 22% and 14% report never having been able to do so (Shizari et al), which also must be understood in context with the fact some women are either unable to, or find it nearly impossible to orgasm in _any_ circumstances (around 5%) so, women frequently engage in clitoral stimulation during PIV, and only a small minority report never having been able to orgasm from doing so, with women claiming on average to orgasm over half (51-60%, Shizari et al) of the time during assisted PIV

[@ProtossWannabe1984]

@@MegaGraceiscoolI think the counterpoint is already contained within your response…a ton of women can still find PIV very enjoyable without reaching orgasm whereas a ton of men will barely enjoy anything before still blowing their load (premature ejaculation anyone?)

[@irenalovesart4064]

You don't know how much your 'power' is your 'youth' 'looks' until you have a comparison for when it's gone but you then can't go back... so you know... assume it's true

[@michaelberman4626]

If all the many differences between women and men are mostly the result of culture and social influence how can we explain the profound male/female behavioral differences that all our primate, and other, predecessors have come to display without the influence of culture and social construction? Perhaps, in humans, society and culture do not in fact construct the myriad sex differences but rather function to reinforce them because they are necessary, and also to constrain them because they are potentially dangerous. The interests and capabilities of women and men certainly overlap to a large degree but only women can conceive, gestate, birth, and nurse a baby while the contribution and investment of men to those ends is minuscule by comparison. Surely that differential in investment would result in any number of behavioral differences in humans as they do in virtually all sexually reproducing species. Certainly men and women should enjoy the same rights and privileges in law, but they are very different in ways that are obvious. Can we not all agree that the most essential human activity is reproduction and the loving care and rearing of our children, and to that end Nature gets the diversity ratio right every time - 50% female/50% male, without the need for any diversity commissars? Men and women are not the same, but they are necessarily complementary and deserving of equal rights. What degree of coercion would be necessary to make the same what Nature has made different?

[@Michael-gd8op]

Well, this puts my point much more eloquently. I was simply going to point out that Zoe expressed that there are differences in men and women. To which the response was a blunt no there isn't. Holly then disputed any argument of natural differences as lacking evidence. And then proceeded to argue that those are socially and culturally enforced differences. While providing no evidence to that fact. There's no way of testing the degree of social and cultural influence on these differences. Holly then argues that we haven't gone far enough yet, but if the evidence proves her wrong, she will certainly change her opinion rather than just suggesting we need to go further still. Which is exactly what she just did. Holly fails to acknowledge her own ideological bias while criticising it in others.

[@fraserct533]

​​​@@Michael-gd8opexactly the point I was going to make but you've done it for me. Holly's eutopian idealogical bias is on full display. Having said that - it is good & useful to hear this debated constructively in good faith by two obviously thoughtful women. Would be useful to include a man on each side to represent all points of view.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

Inherent in the ability to carry and tend the next generation is an even greater power- the ability to choose who's genes continue and who's die out. In generational terms, women literally shape men.

[@npcla1]

Great covo girls, I really enjoyed it. I like Holly, but her understanding of evolution is where she falls down I think in in the end. I mean, imagine being 'against sex'! Evolution is a concept that might seem simple on the surface but there's actually a lot to it when you really dig in. It has massive implications for all sorts of things and huge predictive power. I didn't realise this until I did a deep dive a few years ago and put on the 'evolutionary lens' so to speak. The fact is that evolution hasn't crafted our minds to think in time scales as long as evolution, and so in a sense, we're not designed to think evolutionary or understand evolution! Cruel irony I suppose. I think evolution has also selected a cognitive bias against the idea of evolution. Meaning, we have evolved an optimism around being able to change things (very important for survival - to have hope, a sense of agency etc) and so we have a bias toward social explanations for things over-against evolutionary/biological explanations. This serves us really well on a day to day basis but not so well when it comes to science and thinking critically. It can be depressing to realise that certain things are pretty much fixed or at least very resistant to change (ie. we aren't blank slates) and so many of us just choose not to believe it, usually unconsciously.

[@Dystisis]

The distinction between biology and socialization/culture is not clear or sharp, and as we learn more about biology (and, one would like to hope, but there are ideological barriers that block this to an extent) culture, we learn that they are one and the same. Biology includes niche construction and forms of social interaction; these things go right to the level of changing our genes, and vice versa, our genes are tied to ways of constructing environments and patterns of interaction within them. So the argument that, for example, women's level of agreeableness is "merely social" is bunk. There is no such thing as a "merely social" or "strictly socially constructed" phenomenon. Our very natures are tied to our social dynamics, and our social dynamics are tied to our very natures.

[@ashbirk4681]

The senator does not seem to know a great deal about what she is talking about. Favorite quote: “We’re not apes are we?” So, are we fish now? 🤔

[@ConanDuke]

"That's not a patriarchy... THIS is a patriarchy" 🔪 ~Paul Hogan

[@blahblahh1507]

Two women, one who hates life, and one who enjoys it.

[@hooligan9794]

Imagine being so confused that you think men and women are psychologically the same. 😂😂😂

[@davewinterton4]

OMG this was so frustrating to listen to. A great example of how an intelligent person can talk themselves into believing nonsense. Zoe you’re a saint for being so patient. Even when confronted with evidence that increasing personal choice leads to bigger gender differences, the answer is ‘well, we just haven’t sufficiently re-engineered society yet’. And then even in the face of the trans ideology the point still doesn’t hit home. If you accept that male and female biology is different, of course there will some differences in their brain (and therefore behaviour). The brain is just another organ, albeit the most complicated one. Incredible.

[@tbrown6559]

I like the idea of a kinder, gentler society- but at some point someone will need to climb the power line poles and restore the electric grid during a storm, build roads and homes, and pull the oil out of the ground, so we can continue to enjoy modernity. I doubt the majority ( or even a significant minority) of such work will ever be done by women, by choice.

[@explrr22]

Thought I'd add another aspect of an occupation that I discovered directly "might" have similar nature biases. At the end of my working career, I ended up working a rotating, mostly overnight job, with no human interaction or coworkers. Other than the hours and social isolation, it wasn't physically demanding. But try as the management did, they just couldn't get women to stay. Actually it was hard to get anyone to stay, but women dropped out much quicker. The same work, without the crazy hours and social isolation was much more equally taken up by women. ... One reservation, because there was a desire for gender equity, women tended to be able to move more easily to work that didn't have the social isolation and body clock stresses. The job was quite well compensated for the skill and education level, but it was easier to find men willing to endure its particular downsides... as you might expect?

[@jonahtwhale1779]

Well force them by quota! They demanded equality - give them equality is all the shitty aspects of life - homelessness, prison, taxes etc. There is a strange dichotomy with this equality malarkey... They are quite happy for men to be disadvantaged by equality measures but very resistant to women being disadvantaged by equality measures. Almost as if they only want equality when it benefits women!

[@ForestFamilies89]

Really enjoyed this - nice to see ideas being batted back and forth without anyone losing their mind and yelling about their identity.

[@Tesla_Death_Ray]

I was with her until she said hetero sex is *wrong* 90% of the time. Holy hell.

[@TheKentuckyNightmare]

I think a good question to ask both of these women, but especially Holly, would be, "What would a world in which feminism has been successfully deployed and is no longer necessary look like?"

[@rn7371]

WOW it doesn't make good arguments when your only sited info is from feminist fiction literature.

[@ConanDuke]

7:00 Human Exceptionalism, Transhumanism, and Technological Utopianism will likely spell the death of our species. Biology is deterministic at its core.

[@irenalovesart4064]

Love your content and especially 👏👏 to HLS. However, get back to me when you guys are middle aged with children.

[@irenalovesart4064]

Wait till you get called a Karen for your bolshy views when you're past the pretty privilege stage (not a threat just a sad reality). Then you'll feel the patriarchy lol. All of us who came of age in the 80s (fighting to be a Ms) and are now menopausal with teenagers or worse, younger kids, can't wait till millenials and the tik tok generation get menopause and put it on the map! Personally I love having the language for all the shit emotions and experiences we have - gas lighting, mental load (yes even micro agression) etc. Having these invisible burdens named has changed how i go through life. More please!

[@weini8015]

Im a midle woman and a mother and dont share your perspective or experiences at all.

[@irenalovesart4064]

@@weini8015 cool

[@mathish1477]

Yes culture can transcend innate predispositions, but not for very long.

[@andrewmacdonald3667]

Great discussion. Thank you.

[@alexanderkastaniotis4097]

Have your cake and eat it, too? If there are no differences between men and women, why fight for women's only spaces? The level of cognitive dissonance, mixed with ignorance on the subject of evolutionary forces (not uncommon in the humanities) is astounding.

[@benjones1717]

Culture isn't shaped by imperfect societies but by competitive societies replacing less competitive ones. A 'feminist' society would just get replaced by a 'patriarchal' one, by many different methods.

[@tomsmith6513]

The problem with feminist use of the word "patriarchy" is that very often, they're actually talking about "androcentrism." They confuse the two. It isn't "patriarchy," but rather "androcentrism" that would take over. Patriarchy is a phenomenon that includes androcentrism, but androcentrism can creep into places where patriarchy doesn't already exist. It's more agile. Think of ants getting into your house. In terms of pests and creepy-crawlies getting into your house, androcentrism is like those ants. A patriarchy is a bit like a rat. It's easier for ants to infiltrate your house than rats because they are smaller. Having said that, it isn't "patriarchy" that would undermine the goals of feminism, but androcentrism.

[@barakeit1]

Claire, upon rereading, I must apologize for the spelling and grammatical errors in my previous contribution. I realized that listening to this discussion angered me very much more than I thought. How can someone smile so nicely and damn half the human race, which happens to include me! I think that you should pursue this subject by following up with what might be called more mainstream individuals. Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, Bettina Arndt. You have created an amazing and eclectic publication. Please keep it up.

[@geekyogurtcup]

Great conversation! ❤

[@emiliawisniewski3947]

But what would Holly know about heterosexual sex? I can easily say that lesbian sex statistically results in the breakdown of lesbian relationships rather than maintaining them long term and be technically right about this. I’m not sure female-only sex is better per se, but I’m sure lesbians would disagree vehemently.

[@thenondualinstitute7098]

The complexity of this issue at 12 minutes "differences created by poverty" (or gender) is highlighted by some results on cortex development (my source was left of middle radio 4 here in the UK) comparing highly patriarchal non-western societies versus more liberal western WEIRD demographic cohorts. And in the patriarchal societies weaker cortex development was found in women. The speculation was that this should be a result that extends to class. There was a suggestion also that a causative element might be "stress" but immediately I would have thought elements of autonomy "lacking" in the experience of those on the bottom rungs of a hierarchy would be more likely to result in these differences.

[@krillr_prawn]

On the topic of sex work... Do the majority of sex workers favour a Nordic model? Does the Nordic model empower sex workers/ make it safe for them? I would say 'not really,' is the answer to all those questions. Also, women pay for sex workers as well, what about them? I would be wary of advocating for the Nordic model as it is not exactly egalitarian, or safe for men or women compared to alternatives. Some women find sex work empowering and raises self esteem and self efficacy, under safe conditions: Benoit et al., 2018, 'Sex work and three dimensions of self-esteem...'

[@Desim8r]

That was not a debate. That was Zoe presenting arguments and then letting Holly shoot them down with very little reasoned push back. Zoe should have brought in a third party and then moderated a balanced debate.

[@charliedelto2014]

"I'm anti-hetersexual sex" - this is non-serious

[@Ircaleonius]

I like your stuff but you weren’t ready at all for this conversation and let her ramble on to many contradictions.

[@Michael-cb5nm]

Agreeableness could be both under genetic influence and expressed more in females than in males. It is quite common for genes to be expressed differently depending on the bodies they inhabit, by being turned on or off by other genes. I can’t believe this smug professor doesn’t know or understand this mechanism for gene expression. Here is an excerpt from The Selfish Gene illustrating this concept, which has been understood for many decades. “In its long journey down the generations therefore, an average gene will spend approximately half its time sitting in male bodies, and the other half sitting in female bodies. Some gene effects show themselves only in bodies of one sex. These are called sex-limited gene effects. A gene controlling penis-length expresses this effect only in male bodies, but it is carried about in female bodies too and may have some quite different effect on female bodies. There is no reason why a man should not inherit a tendency to develop a long penis from his mother. Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene”

[@hagathacrusty8995]

She's saying that she thinks agreeableness is a cultural expression rather than a hardwired evolutionary one. I don't know if I agree with that, I think it's both and that there are certainly many exceptions to the rule. But in any case I didn't find her smug at all.

[@eleanorhunt9738]

Feminism is still needed - great to see younger women getting involved and having concerns about the eay things are currently heading. We don't need to agree on everything but women need to work together.

[@markaurelius61]

Feminism is a deliberately blinkered movement that is unable to help us see the way forward. It seems to conscientiously ignore the male experience and real biology.

[@sturmanaskie]

I think she’s wrong about “masculine” traits being valued in society. Successful men these days are good communicators and negotiators. They have soft skills that allow them to form alliances. These are not traditionally “masculine” traits but are crucial to success in any professional field. Look at people like Trudeau and Sunak for example. By contrast look at the alpha male Trump who is at risk of going to jail.

[@SethAndrews111]

lol, trump is not an alpha male by any standard. He wears more makeup than a drag queen.

[@annarboriter]

The assertion amongst feminists that masculine traits are valued in society is simply used as a justification for discriminating against men and boys in situations where women have overwhelming control e.g. educational institutions, domestic spheres, soceity in general etc

[@WhizzingFish12]

Fascinating you picked Trudeau and Sunak as examples. Both are soft authoritarians.

[@dchappy6985]

Paraphrased (Gender quality is sooo natural, all we need to do is the beat it into society (men) on pain of castration and death. Logic

[@annarboriter]

Sacrificing men is the price of feminist's interest in achieving their notion of equality

[@andrewlm5677]

There are a lot more men in SW development than there are women - this seems to continue to be the case for new young employees. It is a bit of a puzzling thing as it doesn’t seem to me in my education or career that Engineering had any overt preference for males that would be driving exclusion of females. My wife is one of the rare women in the industry and she doesn’t have a good explanation either. I tend to think gender differences could be one of the best explanations for the imbalance

[@benp4877]

I was with her until the “anti-sex” bit. Strikes me as a bit weird at best and completely unnatural at worst. Andrea Dworkin redux indeed.

[@annarboriter]

Feminists mostly enjoy fighting battles that they have already won. It doesn't even matter how many times Dworkin claimed to have been raped, the definition of rape must be expanded by the Bindel types so that the rate of rapes not go down

[@starbuckssocialist6379]

At first I was even excited that she recognized there are indeed some issues surrounding pornography and prostitution, but since when is heterosexuality inherently evil??? It's absolutely possible for a woman to dominate a man in bed too and to completely disregard his satisfaction, just think about ruining orgasms. Lazy argument without much thought.

[@sunnyr5037]

my god that was frustrating to watch, lol. on the one hand , we have lots of replicated research and evolutionary theory. on the other (Holly), we have blank slatism and assertions without evidence.

[@adbadhed]

We're facing the possible breakdown of society atm, and when the dust setlles, that woman had better start making herself useful.

[@ezyroller]

Hey Holly... sorry you have to deal with the patriarchy here in Australia. Must be have been a really difficult decision to leave New Zealand for this oppressive and despotic society of ours. I can't imagine what pressures led you to migrate to this horrible place. Can I also offer my sympathies for your indentured servitude as an associate professor at the southern hemisphere's best university, where women far outnumber men. Must be hard earning more than 99% of Australian women in this horrific city known for its conservative tendencies and general un-liveability (the capital of Wokeistan - Melbourne). Do you need someone to help you pay for a ticket so you can get back to New Zealand? I have no idea where that is, but I'm happy to facilitate your emancipation, whatever the cost.

[@williamhughes4242]

Suspect we will find out in the future how it will be to live in a female dominated nation. Whether it will be positive or negative depends on those who will be there. I won't be around that long but it would be interesting to see how the nation fares.

[@ConanDuke]

0:27 Global vs Australian? Nuance! She's off to a good start.

[@MiMaTak]

around 40:00 as a man who had to learn.. it only takes one time where your partner shows you how to orient caresses or penetrations to be able to make the party mutually beneficial. silence is killing and creates frustrations...

[@rosshonniball5345]

Interesting chat. Not sure Holly’s thinking at times. Personally I think men and women have some baked in differences.

[@radicalrebella]

Holly you were brilliant

[@annarboriter]

"we could construct girl children very differently" But feminism is all about equality

[@louisecarrigg9398]

Feminism is primarily based in centering the needs and rights of women and girls. It's definition seems to have changed unfortunately.

[@annarboriter]

@@louisecarrigg9398 Exactly, it's about giving preferences to women, girls, transgirls, transwomen, and nonbinary vagina havers AND promoting equality between the sexes

[@shortminute]

Good conversation thanks. I’m a man and I think both speakers have good points on how men get it wrong and get it right. Sex is an act that takes a lot of maturity. I try to communicate with my partner and understand their needs.

[@GDKLockout]

It's got to be really annoying o be Interviewed by a woman who's living out the exact opposite of what you wish to portray as a societal problem.

[@brendondouglas269]

Can you put a word counter on her answers?

[@DEWwords]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[@DEWwords]

... a little nuts here n there, but...

[@DEWwords]

I mean, if you really resent and even hate men and the idea of actually having sex with them, then maybe you should avoid having sex with them... ? without needing a girl posse to validate and keep you company in your lack of, or frustrated desire? To thine own self be true? which might be lesbian? or dominatrix? --- or little sis resentment syndrome? as mysterious as the satisfactions are to me? Men are NOT women... no matter how much they should dress or act like women. Either you like the difference--- or you want to sleep with yourself?--- It's a question.

[@SuperiorMoon]

My god they might look like men. 😮

[@h0tsex0r]

💀