"Debating" MrGirl on Gender and Trans Issues | Part One

[@KaiserShounen]

1:14:30 Mr. Girl: "The science community silencing debate and critique of gender theory and Transgenderism is dogmatic and wrong. Here is an example why." Rose Wrist: "Ok then, lets talk about that example and discern whether or not it applies." Mr. Girl: "What do you mean? Why discuss it? Its so true you don't need to talk about it." Yeah seems legit.

[@d_trich]

Epic centrist take

[@hoodee1334]

Mr Girl talks about trans persons like it's some fairytale, and he is extremely, extremely arrogant in his views of it and solutions. (If you can even call it a "solution". I'm being super charitable with that word.) His arrogance and apathy towards others is really abhorrent. Rose's patience is godly. Love when Mr. Girl uses the, I can't believe you, argument. Really, Really compelling shit.

[@tianamaycry]

He knows what trans people want better than we do.

[@d_trich]

Harry Potter debates Arch Warhammer

[@christiankomes897]

Harry Potter and the chamber of deadnames

[@ataridc]

Don't get it. Is he arch warhammer

[@user-rs1wc9qs3n]

To address some of mrgirl’s arguments from my perspective as a trans man. He says that getting gender confirming surgery is the beginning essentially of an addiction to surgery or the beginning of an addiction to something to make yourself feel better. Thing is, for most binary trans men I’ve seen, getting top surgery even is enough for them. It would be enough for me personally. And it drastically improves their lives. It actually does. They are seen in society as the gender they identify as and it helps drastically reduce feelings of dysphoria. To the point where some trans men don’t even think about the fact that they’re trans anymore because they are regarded in society simply as being male, no questions asked. Some men of course opt for bottom surgery too and that surgery is more complicated and there have been known to be complications with that surgery (there are complications in any surgery, including top surgery mentioned before). But that surgery too can be massively beneficial to trans men. And it can drastically improve their quality of life. I have never had suicidal thoughts or suicidal ideation. I have dysphoria and I intend to get top surgery. But I don’t hate my body for that. My body was coded female and that’s how it developed. And that sucks because that’s not me. But I see it as my body just doing what it was coded to do. It’s not my body’s fault, so I don’t hate it even if I want to change it. He seems to approach this from the “being trans is a sickness, a warped mental illness” perspective that has been the dominant mentality regarding trans people and internalized among some (truscum) trans people, especially prevalent in previous generations, because that was the only narrative available to them to describe the driving force behind their trans identities at the time and even then there are likely outliers who rejected that notion, that I think is easy to ensconce as someone who has never felt any need to question their gender and who has never experienced gender dysphoria. He seems to find difficulty empathizing with, as he often encourages others to do in regards to him and his own perspectives, the trans experience and because he personally cannot understand dysphoria and what would drive a person to get gender affirming surgeries, he tries to rationalize why they would, he substitutes the experience of dysphoria for some alternative he believes to be true and comes to the conclusion that trans people are not genuine and could not possibly actually exist. It’s a limitation of his personal perspective and experience that he is incapable of empathizing past. So to me he is hypocritical. And what really gets to me is that this guy has a non binary partner that he “talked out” of transitioning via HRT, getting on testosterone and later boasted about that in Destiny’s discussion “maybe I’m just good at it (talking trans people out of transitioning).” That is a very vulnerable period questioning your gender and deciding to transition. And yes the steps to ensure that it is in fact gender dysphoria and not something like body dysmorphia or something that some detransitioners misinterpret as gender dysphoria and then go into informed consent HRT without consulting therapists (which should general therapy be mandatory to a certain degree before access to hormones, yes I kind of think it should just to rule out anything else that could be misinterpreted as gender dysphoria, but that can become a gray area of what is helping and what is conversion therapy.) Anyway that’s a very vulnerable period where especially a cis person, who are the majority, and especially someone very close to you could manipulate you out of pursuing that identity. And that to me is harmful. I hope his partner has a therapist. You’re wearing his MERCHANDISE?? We ARE WORMSsss

[@luffyd.monkey7171]

“He seems to approach this from the “being trans is a sickness, a warped mental illness” perspective” No he doesn’t, he literally addresses this. He says trans people aren’t crazy, they’re a symptom of a warped society.

[@duckh0le859]

@@luffyd.monkey7171 right, and many people aren't going to recognize the trans person as their identified gender even after surgery so societal change would still need to take place. Wouldn't it be better to change everyone's perspective on gender to where trans people wouldn't require surgery in the first place.

[@dacios6776]

@@luffyd.monkey7171 That's the same just one step removed tho, like there's not much perspective difference between being the cancerous cell and the tumor, if anything you might hold more consideration for the sickness itself than the bothersome symptom

[@Sesshounamaru7]

@@luffyd.monkey7171 lol no, thats the same bullshit as conservative zealot who push the i pray for your gay to go away, i don't hate you but i hate your gayness and i care for your soul more than you do and i know more about you than you do therefore my love for forcing my perspective into you is correct and you trying to denny me pushing my shit into you is the hurtfull thing, why are you not empatic with me and how i feel towards you? Im doing a favor ---type of shit. Mr Gril simply hides his beliefs so it doesn't come off as THAT negative (not to the audience, but to himself)

[@pjhaze]

It’s becoming or is illegal in some states for a professional to tell someone they aren’t trans. If you go to a therapist and they say it’s something else but you insist your trans, they can now be fined or lose their license. It is considered conversion therapy, like you said. Idk if that’s good but I guess we’ll see. I honestly don’t know what’s worse; letting many people who are not trans transition or not allowing many trans people to transition. Both are awful.

[@joewesterland5697]

It was nice to see some back and fourth in Rose's chat. Its a good sign when a political streamers audience don't mindlessly agree with them.

[@bobpope3656]

Don’t worry that will stop as he gets more subs

[@perpetual_suffering1458]

@@bobpope3656 that depends on whether he mimicks hasans strategy which is to create an echo chamber

[@bobpope3656]

@@perpetual_suffering1458 lol what? Have you seen destiny chat? This happens to literally everyone

[@perpetual_suffering1458]

@@bobpope3656 destinys chat circle jerks him? Ok either youve never in your life watched a stream or you watch his streams while on crack. Many of his own youtube uploads is him arguing with people in his chat and when you go to his youtube videos the comments have a multitude of people disagreeing with him. The hasan and later the vaush dramas caused massive declines in his viewership with the hasan one in particular caused his monthly viewership to half, all because he decided to devote months to shitting on his communist viewers. Is that really what you define as an echo chamber? You actually just picked the literal worst streamer to back up your point.

[@Sprite_525]

@@perpetual_suffering1458 agreed, it’s a myth created by the world of Hasan / DemonMama / ThoughtSlime / MikeFromPA / BadBunny, those types ramble endlessly about this “swarm of mindless zombies that terrorize good people 24/7”, meanwhile it’s pretty critical and diverse, I’ve been in Hasan’s discord and Twitch stream and it was really much scarier in terms of being a monolith willing to instantly do his bidding

[@pagriveter4130]

I would do some reading on the research on the potentially innate aspects of trans identity. There has been a fair amount to suggest (twin studies, developmental research, neurological and psychological research)there may be something of a "psychological sex" which could potentially be the root of many peoples physical dysphoria, as opposed to just socially imprinted psychological schemas.. Though the latter seems to be quite important as well, especially in the younger years.

[@hypercortical7772]

absolutely. there are so many studies at this point looking into potential etiology of gender dysphoria, and they almost all support the neurodevelopmental hypothesis. My quick and dirty summary of the research would be that 1. there seems to be correlations with either abnormalities in hormone environment at key points during development, or genetic abnormalities that change the way our brains react to sex hormones. 2. trans people do seem to have brains that are somewhat more like their affirmed sex, sometimes in gross morphology, but most consistently this is seen with functional connectivity. But the neurophenotype that unifies both trans men and trans women in characterizing gender dysphoria is abnormalities in own-body perception networks, which normalize after gender affirming hormone therapy. so 3. given those two empirical trends it kinda seems like at least one of two possible things is happening. either a.) the brain is sexually differentiating such that it is optimized under the expectation of the dominant cross-sex hormone, or b.) the brain is sexually differentiating such that it is hard-coding certain cross-sexually-dimorphic aspects of of the body in the brains somatosensory maps. (oh yeah, and like the other commenter said, twin/sibling studies are a thing).

[@namiix7365]

53:04 did he really just say that??? he knows nothing about being trans, id give anything to be cis.

[@tylerjmast]

To be cis? Or to be cis again?

[@abandoned-mines-novascotia]

"id give anything to be cis" *I don't believe you* If you are telling the truth, you are a rare bird in the trans community. I am a 49 year old gay man that has known "real" trans people for decades, long before the trendy mainstreaming of 2014+. Trans right now is a WHOLE different ballgame. "Born this way" trans individuals that transitioned for life were a rare occurrence, like 1 in 1000, in just the 80's and 90's. They were among us in the LGBT community, and we all knew them. They quietly, non-politically, non-dogmatically, and privately transitioned. There were no congratulations, no fanfare, no celebrations. They were not only rare, but those who were truly trans (not gay or lesbian) changed only as an extreme last measure. What is the difference today? Being trans is a social label to wear. An open identity. People rock it. List it in their profiles. It provides a kickback of dopamine. It's rejuvination. It's a rebirth. Ask yourself - what payout is it giving you? Because having everything you feel and just being a "normal everyday boring cis person" provides ZERO options. Think about that for a moment. It's the ability to come from a youth of being socially & physically awkward, geeky, nerdy, gay, lesbian, weird, emo - whatever... and re-invent oneself. From a lowly worm to a butterfly. It's about being gay or lesbian, compounded with a ton of mental issues, and hating ones physical body - and this rebirth option is beyond tempting. It is also attached to an online and social movement that 'has a fight for rights' in play - which also gives another dopamine hit, and reason to feel connected and part of something big. It's a boost in life affirmation, something to work on, something to get up every day to face and feel. Here's how you know - if you alone by yourself, reflect about your gender or trans-ness every single day, or worse, multiple times a day... especially after transition... that is something very wrong with your mental state. Because cis people don't think about their gender status daily... or weekly... or monthly... or maybe once a year. That is normalcy. That is baseline. So if a transitioned trans person is rocking 'trans trans trans trans' every day in their heads... they have NOT cured the underlying mental issue that was the crux all along. Gender is not a plaything. Identity is not a plaything. I see so many (alleged) trans people now pushing "gender" to the front of their existence, like it's a daily hobby, and definitely the entire BASIS of who they are. They think and talk about it... every... single... day. This is a shining, glaring sign. As a counter-example, take me. Being gay is like the 100th least important factor or trait of who I am. My point? If you are truly now the exact whole person you always were, and not down a mental rabbit hole stemming from other things... then make gender like eye color. FORGET ABOUT IT. See if you can do that. If that thought horrifies you, or you are incapable... then this was NEVER about gender. There is a mental obsession / problem going on. A very deep deep one. Especially if gender is something so important in your head, you'd contemplate suicide over it. Remember folks - FTM cases seeking treatment and hormones has risen 4000% (yes 40X) in only the last decade. This is social contagion. This is a new social counterculture. Those who are going this way, LOVE IT. They deep inside aren't "oppressed" ... they are "SPECIAL" and rocking it. With all the social contagion of being that butterfly, the pride, and the affirmation. *So I don't buy that this massive 2012-2022 surge in trans people is a group that would "give anything to be cis" Nope* That would mean they would have to go back to allegedly boring, everyday, plain, normative cis identity. Zero payoff. Nothing new. The road they were previously on. And that - is a horror for these folks. Don't want to face the original ongoing deep life-purpose, self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-worth issues that were there before. ALL CURED - because 'I'm now the actual person I was supposed to be, happier, and (allegedly) feeling great' Even got to give yourself a new name! Sorry no... these broken people are NOT going to give that stuff up, and they have hypnotized themselves into believing they are fixed because they finally got to shoot hormones and get surgeries.

[@bobpope3656]

Have you talked to a therapist about wanting to be cis?

[@mrbanks456]

You mean you'd give anything to be satisfied with your body and how people treat you. Welcome to the club.

[@cobblegen1204]

The trans people I have heard saying they wanted to be cis claimed that they wanted to be the cisgender version of the gender they needed to transition TO, which I suppose makes sense when you think about it.

[@JustinBieberFoLife]

To me it seems like the transphobia arguments are some downstream effect of a strange esoteric philosophy he's constructed for himself, that is incredibly hard for him to communicate to people. I think the fact it's so hard to explain, MAY be a clue of it's incongruity with reality. On his videos I've seen, this malformed philosophy seems to color his opinions on many topics, not just transphobia. I will give him this though, he seems articulate and honest.... for better or for worse. I'm sure 'high-school me' would have thought he was very clever.

[@davemanning4005]

clever, intelligence, smart... those are complicated words as there are lots of types of intelligence. Having controversial takes does not take away from his intelligence... in fact, i am more impressed with his intellect now that i have heard more of his conversations. he knows how to form an argument, he backs up his arguments to the point where he can challenge the status quo although i do think he lacks self-awareness in that he doesnt recognize how his experiences have colored his arguments.

[@JustinBieberFoLife]

@@davemanning4005 Sure I understand theories of multiple intelligence, but my point is that he sounds naïve, even in his academic understanding (like a highschool stoner). I actually don't care about his takes being controversial, that's not my problem. I just don't think that his arguments prove what he thinks they prove. He may be naïve to his own experiences, but I also don't think he'd be making any of these arguments if he wasn't so psychology focused (in all his videos not just debates). I know he doesn't trust the institution of psychology, but he strikes me as kind of academically brain poisoned, in the same way he's complaining about others. I don't think he's able to contextualize things outside the bucket of psychology. When I meet scientists and academics like this it's a huge red flag.

[@avoidantbehavior]

This argument feels a lot like the spider man meme. "some downstream effect of a strange esoteric philosophy they've constructed for themselves" is exactly the words I'd use for anyone trans-identified.

[@JustinBieberFoLife]

​@@avoidantbehavior whether or not you agree, trans identity is not esoteric....otherwise no one would know about it, which is kinda intrinsic to what 'esoteric' means. His ideology is not labelled, and ubiquitous like trans identity is. I'm not even saying whether or not MrGirl is wrong, but some of his ideas ARE pretty esoteric. If they weren't he wouldn't have this air of controversy around him.. I'm pretty sure even he'd agree with that, and it's something he alludes to on a broad range of topics, not just gender.

[@avoidantbehavior]

@@JustinBieberFoLife I'm pretty sure that his response would be something like most people would be in our camp. The trans ideology makes no sense and most people are just placating others to avoid being called bigots. Specifically those with gender dysphoria transitioning along the binary. In the case of MTF, how does a person AMAB know that they were always female? How is that knowledge not esoteric? It is knowledge that is only gaged by trust in that individual. It's not inherently evident.

[@narikobeilschmidt]

can't watch right now but commenting for engagement! looks like a fun one! i saw the title and said "OH NO, NOT THE CUTIES REVIEW GUY"

[@ellpoyohlokoh]

The cuties review is basically irrelevant to this discussion.

[@indiahodgson3816]

I can understand where Mr Girl is coming from, but I don't think he realizes he's not talking about the trans experience. I've known people with very bad body dysmorphia/trauma who think "I hate myself but I'd hate myself less if I was the other sex," or at the very least think that changing their gender would give them a new lease on life -- but they aren't trans and they don't have gender dysphoria, they just hate their current body. For these people, transitioning would not be healthy and would lead to worse outcomes, and it can be hard for them to realize that transitioning won't help them and they just need therapy. This seems to be the person Mr Girl imagines when he thinks of gender dysphoria. However, this person does not have gender dysphoria, and Mr Girl does not seem to recognize that gender dysphoria is it's own unique experience. Mr Girl is so anecdote-driven that I bet he knew someone like this, and assumed their desire to transition was the same as trans people's desire to transition. But theirs was a different gender-related mental anguish, and Mr Girl is wrong to apply that experience to all people who desire to transition.

[@unclebobboomergames]

I dont like the invocation of other mental health issues here either. I have diagnosed depression and have been on and off meds my whole adult life. Now I prefer to go unmedicated but thats with going ON them first. I was an athlete. Active. Decent diet. Active social life. You cant JUST make your life better. Like rose keeps saying its a piece to the whole puzzle

[@ellpoyohlokoh]

Here's a question - do you think the antidepressants caused an irrevocable change to your physical being? You prefer to be off meds, and that's very respectable. However, a post-op trans person cannot prefer to be off surgery anymore, and any detransitioner is going to have permanent changes due to the treatment they were given.

[@hypercortical7772]

Mr Girl has the most insane psychology takes. On this topic he reminds me of the old anti-sjw/skeptic communities, where often there entire support for their positions would be "well I thought about it and it's obvious".

[@rexenoshi]

Justify worm people then please 😂

[@RockPile_]

It’s silly to think that propositional truth is the only truth, or to think that logical justifications somehow make moral beliefs/prescriptions more or less valid

[@rexenoshi]

@@RockPile_ the point is on face value mr girls points are not extreme. The fact anyone would think they are just shows the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify putting people through extreme changes to deal with psychological problems. The point he is making is clear we wouldn’t do it for anybody else so why trans people. Now I’m not saying I agree with his takes, but to act like they are insane, shows the extreme lack of care and discontent people have on this topic.

[@rexenoshi]

@@RockPile_ personally I believe people should be able to do what they want. As long as they can live a happy healthy life. So if you want to remove a finger or a leg I’m not going to stand in the way of these people. But I’m not naive enough to think my position isn’t a radical viewpoint.

[@suitnuggerat1123]

Really? i thought most of what he said made sense.

[@cloudoftime]

mrgirl is wildly hypocritical here. Early on he says that his "ape rights" are violated when someone asks him to recognize _their_ gender for what they feel, but then he wants to tell people they can't get SRS because _he_ doesn't approve of the risk-benefit calculation. What? Why is it ok for him to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own body, money, and time, which has been shown to improve wellbeing, but he has a problem acknowledging what someone else has decided about their own gender when he has admitted that gender is a subjective concept? Absurd. mrgirl: "You cutting your own penis off doesn't work for me." also mrgirl: "You are violating me by deciding your own gender, even though it is subjective." - Well, mrgirl, you having these thoughts doesn't work for me. Where do we go from here? mrgirl: "I don't believe in self reporting." - Ok, so using your standard we shouldn't believe you when you claim that you find this situation to be terrifying. We shouldn't believe you when you say you feel violated when someone tells you their own gender. Again, like in the Vaush discussion, mrgirl says (paraphrased) "success would be if it was all better". So then we can never use the word success. If we have an option, the only option, that is shown to create a better outcome, pragmatically that is the option we need to take for a better outcome. This isn't difficult. You have no other option. Like how he claimed that there is no righteous violence in the Vaush debate. He thinks he could just talk Hitler out of action, like no one tried diplomacy before. Yet he doesn't provide any explanation of exactly how he would do this and so obviously doesn't provide evidence supporting why his nonexistent method would be effective. Here, he just says, "more therapy", but can't show that this would be effective. It's a good idea but to just assert things without any evidence, like that is a reasonable offering, is just ridiculous. The "worm" analogy doesn't work because someone who became a worm would be dependent on society to exist. This completely misses the point. Trans people who undergo SRS have better outcomes, which is better for society. mrgirl: "I don't want to debate you, bro." - But that's what you are doing. There is nothing wrong with debate. You have a position, they have a different position, and you attempt to substantiate your position. More "it's like I believe the sky is blue" nonsense. No, it's not like your belief that the sky is blue. That is direct experience. You are talking about conspiracy theories based on second and third hand information about speculation of how people act under assumed pressures from minority groups. His views are all over the place and incoherent. He is one of the least consistent people getting the most attention right now. He told Destiny that he doesn't like discussing "evidence" in debates, but he referred to empirical evidence here. He told Vaush that he doesn't believe in good or bad, but he makes prescriptions in all these discussions for "more ethical" outcomes based on his feelings. He is very confused.

[@rableveret310]

"Look, you have your beliefs, I have my beliefs. I don't want to justify what I believe, and as you've seen, I won't listen to your justifications, so can we just vibe a bit as I tell you about how trans people are just being silly?" - MrGirl

[@rockthemic12]

You are awesome Rose Wrist. Good job calling out these ideologues and challenging them on the lack of empiricism underlying their problematic world views.

[@fredrickkenley674]

Spoken like a true ideologue who didn’t actually listen and/or comprehend what the person you already decided has a problematic world view was saying. Bravo.

[@Grassroots_Hegemon]

I'd call Mr. Girl a lot of things, ideologue probably isn't one of them

[@BornOnThursday]

"You don't need citations when discussing issues that are heavily discussed and people have used misinformation to argue." Gotcha.

[@isabelle5453]

The ever so reasonable position “a cult is taking over the world” lmao

[@isabelle5453]

@JustKilledIt21 He is, no movement he’d be referring to is so hegemonic where it’s fair to label them as a cult. Would you mind listing some of these ‘cults’?

[@Ematched]

1:05:45 the Hippocratic Oath doesn't apply to this. You can't force a surgeon to perform a surgery that's not within his/her focus. There's no ethical obligation for a heart surgeon to perform breast enhancement surgery.

[@brandonislemons]

That's not what he was talking about tho. He's just asking at what point will a surgeon or doctor say this treatment may do more harm than good

[@larrimus4309]

You have an incredible amount of patience. I fucking love your work!

[@ZlatanZizou]

I feel this comment is equally applicable to both Rose Wrist and mrgirl, and i like the ambiguity in that.

[@ZlatanZizou]

@@hunsinger Thanks for the reply. I would agree with you that it is clearly directed at Rose Wrist. However the ambiguous wording of the comment by itself, makes it applicable to both participants, which is humouring me.

[@BornOnThursday]

Mr. girl has a hard time understanding the point of metaphors because they often introduce factors that aren't present in reality to address an attitude.

[@zunlise2341]

Just watched MG's debate with Vaush and he came off to me like an idiot. But Vaush probably tried to gotcha him too much, so I'll watch this debate, because you, RoseWrist, usually argue in better faith.

[@bigdick1267]

Yea watch his conversations with destiny

[@kevincola3184]

I got the impression that Vaush was just very uncomfortable and creeped out by MrGirl throughout and Vaush hung up on him when he grew tired and disgusted regarding how MrGirl constantly asked questions and made statements and hypotheticals about sex and attraction toward children/teenagers.

[@sqronce]

I'm only 15 minutes in, but Mr Girl said something about how we don't do major surgeries to remove healthy parts of the body to help people on a minor level psychologically in other situations.... but... I'm pretty sure we do. My brother's exgirlfriend had a thing where only one breast would grow, so she had like an A cup size and a D cup size. And she was given the option of either a breast reduction to get them both down to A size (removing a healthy organ for a psychological benefit,) or getting an implant to get them both to Ds. She went with the implant (though later said she wished she had got the reduction.)

[@dimsdaledimma4321]

U could argue that he was talking about bottom surgery which is a "major" surgery compared to that

[@sqronce]

@@dimsdaledimma4321 I haven't rewatched this since my original comment, so I may be misremembering, or may be mixing it in with something I saw him say elsewhere, but I thought he said something about being against breast reductions or implants, except if someone has had to have a mastectomy for medical reasons like cancer, and then only implants to restore the breasts to approximately how they were previously. So I thought my example was one where it was both an option of an implant for something that never was there, or a breast reduction of something that isn't due to a physical health issue, where I think most people would consider it reasonable, ignoring any trans stuff. Though I don't know what Mr Girl's stance would be on this specific case.

[@pianotamer1]

44:00 "I as a random person cannot understand a concept, therefore advocate against the only procedure known to have beneficial outcomes for trans people, everything has to make sense to me to be valid."

[@cartoonsandcereal3413]

In 20 years we will look back at it as barbaric. Wait and see.

[@adamyoung7999]

Therapy has literally never shown to be effective?

[@soothouse780]

its funny how they think that our mental stability will be perfect after surgery, it wont. dysphoria never rlly goes away and even with surgery a lot of trans people still face discrimination and support for society. Just bc u get surgery dosnt mean all your problems goes away.

[@1bertoncelj]

He totally got the wrong impression of gender dysphoria, and he is just projecting his own feeling about his private parts on to other people. I really hate how he keeps basically repeating "Cutting out the most important healthy parts just to please other people". Which is just an emotional argument that works only if you are cis, because it makes no sense to me ... * First of all it is not really a healthy part if its existence is making me miserable (he is downplaying the emotional pain and saying it can be fixed by a society)** * Also, if you are on HRT "the part" is really not doing its intended function anymore which can't be considered a super healthy part of a body imo ... * Second of all, it is not important at all to me. I can imagine how it is important to him, but to me, it is just something that shouldn't be there in the first place. * And I don't want to remove it to please other people. Other people will never know what is between my legs ... and I intend to keep it that way Similar how you could say that guys that get their gynecomastia removed are cutting off perfectly healthy parts of their body ... or that a woman with hirsutism gets her beard lasered away is mutilating an important part of the body ("She is removing a completely healthy beard"). I really doubt that he would also be enraged in those two scenarios, especially if you look at the extreme cases of gyno and hirsutism, which is what arguably trans people kinda have. I mean, you could argue that all the traits of the human body are just created by the society, but I don't think that it is that simple. First, I think there is an inate tendency to want to look and be accepted as a certain gender (gender identity). As far as I understand, this is somehow ingrained in us, and it can't really be changed. There will always be a biological differences between sexes and to claim that we can create a world where a 7 feet person with a deep voice, short hair, muscles and a beard could be seen as a woman, is imo. not posible. That woman would also notice that she is different comapred to all the other woman and would want to change that. But let's say that we magically remove that. The only way that we can imo do that is create the world where there won't be any phisical differences between genders, or that we somehow stop caring about any external appearance. I don't think any of those are achivable. The first one is drasticly changing biology and not society and the second one basically means that gender identity wouldn't exist anymore. Since gender identity seems to be an integral part of being human, I don't think that we can just ignore that and convince people to stop thinking themselves as a man or a woman. Ok, but even if we somehow remove that, our brains still seem to be wired to expect certain parts of our bodies to look and work the certain way. For example, many trans people including myself report the feelings of phantom penis/vagina, which can't be really explained by society. I never wanted or expected there to be a thing between my legs, even before I knew I was trans, so it couldn't be the fact that I hate it because girls are not supposed to have it. I hate it because my brain expects something else and what I currently have isn't really cooperating with my hard wired brain. I only watched the first 40 minutes ... I hope you two didn't already discuss those points later in the video haha ** You would never say that an organ that is causing you pain is a healthy part of the body. And let's say that the pain is not because the organ is actually damaged, just that it is causing you pain because of some nerve problems that have nothing to do with the organ. But the pain is the same physical pain as you would get if the organ was damaged. Why, and would it be wrong to remove the organ then? Also, adding to the fact that removing the organ doesn't actually hinder you in any significant way (like removing a limb would, for example, or an important organ ... let's say that the organ in question is one of the kidneys) and that you can't fix the nerve damage that is Actually causing the problem. Would it be ok to remove a completely healthy organ in that case?

[@wowjack8944]

*''First of all it is not really a healthy part if its existence is making me miserable''* Would you say the same for someone with body dismorphia talking about his finger? Should we cut it off or try to change his opinion on his finger if possible. *''I really doubt that he would also be enraged in those two scenarios''* He would bite the bullet i think. See his video on make-up and tattoos. He think people should be happy with the way they look. The reason they are not happy is because society has set the standard that looking like this is ugly and unexaptable. *''There will always be a biological differences between sexes and to claim that we can create a world where a 7 feet person with a deep voice, short hair, muscles and a beard could be seen as a woman, is imo. not posible''* That is not the point anyone is making. The point is about how we treat people. We view the 4'10 smooth faced guy with a high voice still as a guy even though there are woman that are 6'4 with deeper voices and more muscle. Its not about viewing these people as man or woman, but as an individual

[@samueloak1600]

Short hair isn't a "biologically male" thing. Just with that tiny tidbit you reveal how much societal expectations actually DO play out in this

[@1bertoncelj]

​ @Wow Jack > Should we cut it off or try to change his opinion on his finger if possible. well if was the case that you could not just talk someone out of it ... then yeah, what other possibility would there be? But this is not really the same as reality, since people CAN get talked out of body dysmorphia and people CAN NOT really be talked out of gender dysphoria ... yeah I was just trying to say that it is a bit optimistic to think we can get rid of gender considering that there is biology, gender identity, sexual orientation and old customs that all tend toward there being some kind of divide. But in general I agree that it would be nice to get rid of it ... I just doubt the possibility. And if nothing else it still doesn't make trans related surgeries not valid since we live in a world where they are clearly necessary Well if those are the only 2 things that you have problems with my comment, I think I did quite a good job haha

[@1bertoncelj]

@@samueloak1600 sorry yeah this thing slipped in. I also thought I read somewhere that male hair grows slower or something but it is actually the opposite. I stand corrected :) thanks for pointing it out!

[@samueloak1600]

@@1bertoncelj Hey, no problem, nitpicking is my pleasure!

[@GoddamnitMalcolm]

Talking about the article put out by Abigail Shriner about Marci bowers and Erica Anderson shows that mrgirl didn’t even read the whole article bc neither of them say we shouldn’t be performing these procedures lmao

[@GoddamnitMalcolm]

Also you should absolutely read irreversible damage if you want to bring it up in convos bc she specifically misgenders and mocks both Brandon teena and Leelah Alcorn. If you want a PDF version I can email you a copy

[@shedshitley]

mrgirl's gender take is just the ancient judith butler "gender is entirely performative" argument, which is correct in a very limited and not particularly helpful way. thirty years ago it was a useful insight into understanding what gender *is* but has nothing to say about how it's *experienced* , which is ultimately what these conversations are about. i'm on the lacanian side: yes, gender is objectively arbitrary and performative, but it's subjectively experienced as a necessary and inescapable performance.

[@shedshitley]

oh okay he's gone completely insane by the end. "academia is a cult! here are examples of people being ostracized!" "okay, here are the reasons why each of those people were ostracized. turns out they produced objectively (particularly with the genetics example, my god) bad research." "i don't care about that, academia is still a cult because i feel like it is!" if he knew anything about academia he'd know academics get equally brutally ostracized all the time for like, producing bad research on the nesting patterns of migratory birds or whatever. this has nothing to do with the topic, it's just how academia works.

[@tianamaycry]

TBH, I question just how arbitrary gender really is, afterall, it is deeply rooted in our biology, and therefore, is probably heavily informed by biological drives.

[@NickGhale]

This is like an emic Vs etic take. How gender is is the etic and frankly objective perspective. How gender is experience is the emic perspective.

[@NickGhale]

Do you think gender exists in a vaccum? For a child who grew up on a remote island

[@АлександрСудаков-с2и]

He turned himself into a worm! Funniest shit I've ever seen

[@hughmungous3357]

This was an interesting perspective about * actually being neurotic and needing help to cure their OCD.

[@mattwagnone3498]

the worm shit was so fucking hilarious

[@seb267]

(Not sure if this is covered in the debate) but I wonder how Mr. Girl would feel about males being treated for the condition where they grow feminine breasts, or females who get breast reduction because their breasts are so large that it causes back/other health problems. That is their “natural bodies” and they have to “mutilate themselves” (surgery) in order to feel okay/ like themselves. Technically there’s nothing wrong with being a male with breasts, they’re born that way! It would be messed up for society to treat them so badly that they have to treat them, but obviously it would be messed up to say that they couldn’t. It’s nothing like implants at all. It’s so crazy to me that nobody makes this point with him. Also asking him why he focuses so much more focused on trans people when it seems like he’s really just vehemently against body modification??

[@Cygnaeus1]

It's interesting that his anti-surgery argument seems to be based on a "body-horroresque" fear of losing one's penis etc. I. E. The same feeling of physical unease that I have heard trans people describe when they feel like living in the "wrong body".

[@ihavenojawandimustscream4681]

?? Gender dysphoria doed not come from body horror or physical anguish but rather a lack of it. There's a huge difference between "you should not operate your face just to look handsome" and "i want to be handsome to the point i'm willing to cut my face open" One is reactionary and the other revolutionary.Just because both of them revolves around the body does not mean they are the same

[@SinjiKazama]

@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 very keen observation 👍

[@Dat1G1]

2:05 I don't know where people get the idea that something isn't real just because it's socially constructed. I think there needs to be more of an argument than "social construct lol"

[@theonlyonewithgum1452]

YES! Social constructs are "real," it's just their existence relies on us being alive. No humans, no social constructs.

[@eugkra33]

He addresses this in an older interview with another trans person. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5WUiqiYi7iCmMk He uses ADHD as an example. He doesn't believe ADHD is real in some sense. It's a brain pattern. Is the pattern real? Sure, there are similar patterns when it comes to people with ADHD, but none of them are 100% alike. There is essentially an infinite amount of ADHDers out there. They could all get their own name. Millions of them could be divided into subsections. No one with ADHD is 100% like anyone else with ADHD. We just use the label to describe someone that shows a pattern that somewhat fits. It's NOT like how an electron in physics is 100% like every other electron in the universe. He uses the cloud example as well a minute later. If some weatherman labeled all clouds somewhat triangular in shape as "max clouds", and they popularized this idea for some reason, and got lots of other weathermen to call anything that looks slightly triangular as "max clouds", then do they exist? I guess, but there is really an infinite variation of them. Some have all sides the same. Some have slightly curved sides, but 3 corners. Some have 2 sharp corners and 1 rounded corner. Some are 13.175604km across, and some are smaller. You can come up with an infinite number of them. At what point do you think the whole idea of these max clouds is pointless, and just a label that the weather man is trying to create? Do these clouds exist or did he just make this up? Does something that has an infinite number of of variations really exist? It's a box we can wrap in a little bowtie onto for the sake of communication. It's semantics. It has a purpose. Maybe it's useful to talk about these clouds, because you need to show them to other weathermen because they have a higher than normal chance for predicting something in the weather. But in a way they don't exist. Our brain just created a pattern, slapped a label on it, and is now seeing that pattern where you want to.

[@Dat1G1]

@@eugkra33 Wow, somehow that explanation managed to make the take even worse than it already was. If something having a potentially infinite number of physical variations makes it "not real in a way", then everything is "not real in a way", because even 2 electrons always exist in different places in time and space so they can't ever be 100% identical. So yeah, I stand by my point that "social construct = not real" isn't an argument, because not only is "not real" a meaningless distinction by MrGirl's standard, there's also still no explanation for why social constructs in particular are necessarily "not real".

[@mindaugasjurevicius5776]

I'm on Rose's side mostly, but I don't think that he thinks that social constructs are not real, but if it is a social construct it can be fixed socially. So if there was some brain surgery that would stop poor people to commit crime, MrGirl would be against that and he would be advocating for social changes which would change those people. If he had a dog who barks when he's away, he would try to fix the dog's seperation anxiety problems instead of buying a shock collar.

[@calculator91]

"social contract" literally means something only in your head. It's real in the sense the Harry Potter book series is real, but would you "REALLY" make this argument if someone said Harry Potter isn't real? "I don't know where people get the idea that a book series isn't real just because it's fiction."

[@rustyreview]

this is Mr Girl in a nutshell "people dont know what's wrong with them. Let me tell you whats wrong with them" - officially bored with this guy.

[@hoodee1334]

Literally all he does. Ah, me, so smart and I understand your emotions and how to fix you. It's pretty much equivalent to the bootstraps argument but specifically for mental and psychological issues.

[@f.r.etling6226]

1:27:20 It is scarily ironic that all of these methodological issues he lists, are also present in the “gender transition prevents suicide” study

[@d_trich]

In this conversation, Mrgirl cloaked his personal disgust over gender confirmation surgery with an absurdly utopian vision of fixing the planet to be less transphobic. 20:28 22:54 27:01 best example 31:16

[@awkwardturtle2842]

My understanding of his argument is that we wouldn’t want African Americans bleaching their skin to combat racism so why would we want trans people doing surgery to combat transphobia He did state that if people want to have sexual reassignment surgery for other reasons he is ok with that but not as a solution to transphobia Or did I misunderstand his argument?

[@d_trich]

He does explicitly say that reassignment surgery destroys the most important characteristic of a person, which he thinks is their genitals I guess

[@notacrow8942]

Yeah, as if something like the abolition of gender could happen in a few years instead of decades or perhaps centuries, all the while trans people suffer

[@samueloak1600]

@@notacrow8942 And so?

[@notacrow8942]

@@samueloak1600 and so what?

[@DarthGohma]

The assumption that gender dysphoria is completely environmentally influenced aggravates the fuck out of me. I think the vast majority of it is, but I've had multiple metabolic fuck ups with my HRT and been all up and down the physical transition process multiple times and the *physical* or *tactile* body mapping discomfort of my body proportions set in a male setup(*body* dysphoria), even the stuff nobody can see but I have to *feel* is too visceral for me to buy that. It just feels fundamentally wrong. I have very little care for what society expects of me gender wise. Not without insecurity, but the raw misery that just *feeling* my body be out of alignment with my gender is far more powerful than any insecurities I have about my gender itself. Could this be a deeply ingrained aversion planted by societal expectation? Sure. Of course. I only have my anecdote and little tidbits of data that point toward neurological deviations in trans people, but it really triggers the fuck out of me when cis people talk about dysphoria like this. Especially in prescribing what they believe to be what's best for us. The way this guy assumes that we change our bodies to appease others is so fucking patronizing. This guy has the gall to believe that people don't truly know what they want or need within their own minds, but *he's* able to sus it out as an "unbiased observer" generalizing his own belief across entire groups of people. Your head has to be so far up your own ass that you've struck gold by now. Good job, Rose. Love your approach in debates and I appreciate you challenging this guy's take.

[@wowjack8944]

So would you say that the actual thing you care about is looking like the others sex and that this is some innate feeling?

[@DarthGohma]

@@wowjack8944 @Wow Jack No, I don't think it's that simple. I think the "desire to look like" anything is mostly environmentally developed, but that our instinctual inclinations towards certain preferences are innate. I think humans have an instinctive ability to distinguish each sex and most usually classify them into "the in group" and "the other" so to speak. I think my desire to "look like a woman" is the same as any cis woman's desire to look like a woman. We see what our cultural sphere deems attractive or appropriate and we either conform or deviate to whatever degree we prefer. However, there are certain physical characteristics that each sex generally possess. Testosterone creates denser muscle mass and less flexibility. It feels like living in a meat straight jacket to me. Also, the obligatory genitals and breasts(or lack thereof), fat distribution, and sexual instincts that differ between them. Those instincts can be partially explained by primary sex hormones as they each affect libido differently, but there's also the physical mechanics of the genitalia. About to go into some TMI personal info, so brace yourself if you give a shit: I've never been able to maturbate in the conventional way. You know, where you essentially fuck your hand hole? lol The thought of fucking anything with my penis has never appealed to me in the slightest. It's uncomfortable to think about even in a vacuum that excludes either gender. It just feels awkward and uncomfortable anytime I've tried. My penis has made me uncomfortable for way longer than I knew what a vagina was. The best I could describe it would be like being born with your eyeballs exposed. Not like they popped out, because that would be excruciating, but as if they were just naturally exposed to the elements. It's just never felt right, as enlightening as that sounds. Obviously this could all be a coincidence, and anecdote can't draw any conclusions from this, but the pieces are there from my perspective and I think writing gender dysphoria off as either entirely neurological or sociological is myopic as fuck. I don't believe in cut and dry "boy/girl" brains, but I suspect that exposure to sex hormones during prenatal development creates a variety of recurring patterns, like certain sections of the brain *generally* being different sizes between the sexes, etc. I think everyone, cis and trans, has differing degrees of dimorphic brain development and that this could explain why nonbinary people exist, why the level or even existence of an individual trans person's dysphoria can vary drastically from case to case, and maaaayyybe even why cis people can be either feminine or masculine without acclimating to the opposite gender. I think it's all a convoluted dance between psychology and biology. To what degree? No idea. I just think it's dumb to put all of one's eggs on either basket considering what we do *and* don't know. :P

[@wowjack8944]

@@DarthGohma *''We see what our cultural sphere deems attractive or appropriate and we either conform or deviate to whatever degree we prefer''* So what if the cultural sphere around gender did not exist? Or in mrGirls example. What if the concept of race as we know it did not exist in 1960's and we had the hypothetical race change operation. I think the only reason people would do it was for personal preference like haircolor change, but it would not come forth out of this toxic race view. I think it would be the same for gender (but than it would not happen since their is a big difference in changing color of something and removing an bodypart that can't be put back). *''You know, where you essentially fuck your hand hole?''* Lol, great description. I like your eyeball example. I just think we should exhaust all options before doing something as irreversible as changing your gonads. What do you for example think should be done with people that have body dysmorphia with things not related to gender?

[@DarthGohma]

@@wowjack8944 Firstly, I just wanna say I really appreciate your friendliness and genuine effort to have a productive discourse. ^.^ I don't see that a lot on KZbin. lol It's difficult to work within a hypothetical world with no gender politics unless you eliminate sex. Tribalism is a fundamental aspect of humanity that we may evolve out of someday, but we've never been without, so it's hard to go with that hypothetical since we would have to fundamentally change human behavior or remove sex and beauty standards, which would make any conclusion redundant. But, in the spirit of not being so granular and hopefully finally addressing your actual point(lol): In a world without gender or sex politics that includes both sexes, I still believe we'd be getting these procedures done. I think that would eliminate people doing them and regretting it, but I don't think the number of us doing it would decrease very much as very few of us regret doing it and most of those who do only do so thanks to treatment from others or disatisfactory results, which are still a very small minority. Like I said before; I can mostly just go off of my anecdote and disparate, unconclusive data, but even outside of beauty standards, there's also sexual satisfaction to consider. Like I said before, I've never liked the idea of fucking anything. I've also never been able to get off picturing myself as a man or doing his deeds, so to speak. Not once. I know autogynophelia gets thrown around, but it's not the idea of being a woman that excites me. It's that I literally can't get off unless I place myself in whatever scenario as a woman. Body perception is a huge aspect of sex no matter who you are and I think it would be hard to find many cis women that could get off picturing themselves with male bodies. I can only speak for myself, but I don't think our body issues are so drivin by expectation that eliminating gender politics would have a substantial affect on our need for these procedures and treatments. I think the only way to eliminate this would be to eliminate sex or find ways to prevent these neuro deviations from taking place. Men who've had their penises surgically removed have a decent population who experience Phantom limb syndrome, but there aren't many if any cases of that happening to post op trans women. Again; I can only speculate, but my experience and understanding tell me these things are rooted our anatomy and further complicated by society. If almost all of us who have enough motivation to actually go through with these things are more content with having done them, I don't see why anything more than educated caution is needed. Detransitioning isn't an epidemic despite the politicization, I don't see any need to project pity or negativity on our decisions to have these procedures if the vast majority of those experiencing a negative perception of them aren't even the people having them and the exceptions are a minuscule fraction of a fraction of the population. :P Don't quote me on this because I can't check right now, but I'm pretty sure the satisfaction rate of gender affirming procedures is vastly higher than most other surgeries, cosmetic or otherwise. Assuming I'm not typing out of my ass, I think that's a pretty big factor to consider. I'm sure we could do more to prevent mistakes from happening, and I support that sentiment. I just haven't seen a substantial need to raise the alarm. :P I agree that if you go through with an irreversible procedure, you should do everything in your power to assure that you need it before making that leap. As much as I know I'd be happier with a vagina, I don't know if I want to take that risk myself yet, so I'm giving myself ample time to decide and I think the vast majority of us do. As far as body dysmorphia goes; I'm much less familiar with that. From what I understand, that's more delusion or even hallucination of body perception where you literally see your body as inadequate, whether that be too scrawny despite being well built or fat despite being underweight. Body dysphoria is more of a feeling that's exasperated by insecurity, whereas body dysmorphia is insecurity warping your perception. I understand the comparison, and you could still argue that we feel the way we do out of insecurity even without realizing it, but the consequences of physical transition statistically looks to be much more positive than anorexia or steroid abuse. I used to be anorexic before HRT, but now I don't have to worry about keeping my muscle mass low by depriving myself because HRT allows that without negative health consequences. I think there's more of a discussion to be had with this, but I don't think the two are analogous. Plus, just looking at the prevalence of trans people in the population next to rate of satisfaction or at least improvement in quality of life after physical transition in comparison to people who opt for cosmetic surgeries, I think there's a clear distinction to be made regardless. I've been typing out these responses during my limited free time at work and just finished a 12 hour shift, so I haven't had the time and don't have the energy to fact check everything I've said, so if I made any errors definitely let me know and feel free take it all with copious amounts of salt, but this is my perspective at the moment. :P

[@wowjack8944]

​@@DarthGohma *''I really appreciate your friendliness''* Thanks, I think if you are nice even when they are not in the beggining, most people will respond nice back. *''I think that would eliminate people doing them and regretting it, but I don't think the number of us doing it would decrease very much as very few of us regret doing it and most of those who do only do so thanks to treatment from others or disatisfactory results, which are still a very small minority.''* So i think the people do not regert it, but i think there are a reasonable amount that could remain their current sex and be as happy as if after a possible surgery. The thing is that the amount of people that are trans has significantly increased over the last years (iimgurcomBhsvHvsjpeg) Part of this is ofcourse due to more acceptance leeding people to be who they really are, but i think a lot also comes from people being convinced they are something they are not (necesarily). An example of this is this NYT article on anorexia in Hong Kong (The Americanization of Mental Illness) TLDR: Anorixa coming from seeing yourself as to fat did not exist in HongKong. Anorexia in HK came forth out of feeling bloated, not body image. Girl dies of this kind of anorexia. Media report this all over HongKong and use the American Anorexia definition (saying she thought she was to fat etc.). In the following years suddenly a lot of girls get this kind of anorexia even though it did not exist before. I think this could be what explains part of the rise in gender dysphoria. *''I think it would be hard to find many cis women that could get off picturing themselves with male bodies. ''* Never thought about this before. Do you think people would be able to get off if they pictured themselves with a different body of the same sex? *''I agree that if you go through with an irreversible procedure, you should do everything in your power to assure that you need it before making that leap. As much as I know I'd be happier with a vagina, I don't know if I want to take that risk myself yet, so I'm giving myself ample time to decide and I think the vast majority of us do.''* This also raises the problem of puberty ofcourse. Most people don't even have the time to make that decision. *''As far as body dysmorphia goes...''* You are right. I did not respond to a lot of things, since i agreed with most things you said. You went into a lot of detail, hope you did not spend all your free time on me :P

[@joewesterland5697]

I actually really enjoyed this debate. It very quickly moved past surface level opinions and got quite deep in a way that doesn't usually occur in political debates. You don't usually hear someone holistically explaining the way they feel about the world to someone who seems to fundamentally disagree with them.

[@Akumetsu-z1i]

Watching this and watching Destiny's video with MrGirl. I have come to the conclusion that MrGirl always asks for empathy but doesn't really understand how people empathize, or doesn't want to do so himself. At least it is to my knowledge for one have empathy for another they have to understand another to a certain extent. It would be easy for me to empathize with MrGirl if it was clear where his beliefs on trans issues come from and thus easy to understand why he is opposed to trans sugeries and such. But every time he is given to explain why he might feel this way, he just says "come on guys, we know, you know." But I don't know. On to why I think MrGirl doesn't want to empathize; is because if he understands why Rose doesn't trust the credibility of articles thrown to him. He would understand the necessity of why Rose and others on social media feel the need to push back on his arguments. Because if he did empathize with them he would qualify and quantify his statements more. But I think to MrGirl qualify your statements would be akin to "walking on eggshells" and he wants to live in society where people "just know things." The funny thing is that if we follow MrGirl's "empathize" deal. Even without explanation who should be able to empathize with all the push back he got with leftys online, no need to read a book or articles about the issue. He would still be able to empathize, the "Catholic and Muslim in harmony." But that isn't the reality, I think you need some basis of understanding to truly empathize with a person.

[@ThinWhiteLuke]

How does the chat on the right have comments from Twitch and KZbin?

[@ladyarrogance]

watched only first 20minutes, but wow! cis man explaining how trans ppl should feel. can't wait to listen the rest, and see how rose wrist debunks him.

[@Walkingmammoth]

dont like mr girls positions at all but this is really reductive braindead antiintellectual analysis and is a bad comment

[@ataridc]

@@Walkingmammoth true

[@eugkra33]

Don't trans people ever tell cis men how they should feel? Although, I'm not sure I've actually heard him tell trans people how they should feel.

[@urthosart]

“part 1” oh boy lemme grab the snacks edit: chocolate milk has been acquired. thank you for the good work u do rose, king shit edit 2: ‘i don’t know’ ‘i don’t think so’ ‘it just disgusts me’ he’s just arguing from feelings

[@d_trich]

I wish I had a relevant Ben Shapiro quote here.

[@ataridc]

I think you should reconsider how you approach the purpose of debates. You don't actually change people's minds with FACTZ AND LOGIC outside of the debate bro sphere. You have reasonable conversations and slowly get them to see the inconsistencies or irrationality of the things they are saying. This guy, despite that I don't agree with him on very much, is at least approaching this conversation with the possibility of being open to other ideas.

[@urthosart]

@@ataridc i’m not terminally online and don’t care about possible debate rhetoric i don’t have with people. i ain’t reading all that. i’m happy for u tho. or sorry that happened.

[@ataridc]

@@urthosart youre watching rose wrist. you are terminally online.

[@ataridc]

@@urthosart also the im not reading all that etc meme doesnt work if you actually try and rebuttal what I said lmao

[@tyler-xo3rb]

“if a treatment has worked one time, it is necessarily good to prescribe that treatment to everyone with the issue that requires said treatment” is that not what is implied when rose agrees to the 0.000001 hypothetical?

[@ramina6568]

Why is will allen echo posting throughout the entire debate. How is he not banned.

[@Fergit_]

so, all it takes is to convince all of society to agree to a lie and play makebelieve regardless of how they feel or think. should be easy enough.

[@aprilcox871]

Mrgirl constantly makes unfair comparisons (worm people, McDonald's manager "making an incorrect medical statement") and then attacks it as if it represents trans people.

[@micromints1735]

It feels like he fundamentally misunderstands what gender dysphoria is. It’s not some “societal expectations make you think you have to be a certain way”, it’s an internal feeling that your body is absolutely wrong innately.

[@wowjack8944]

But it comes forth out of our societal view of gender. If the concept did not exist, you could not feel like you are te wrong gender. Take his race example. If we never made the racial distingsian based on skin color, would racism exist? And would in his hypothetical people in the 60s want to turn white? No ofcourse not, because the concept of race would not exist.

[@RomanGoetia]

@@wowjack8944 which is why I think that gender dysphoria is a bit of a misnomer. There are people who feel a physical incongruency with their sexual characteristics. If it were only a social, gender related incongruency I'd imagine that there wouldn't be as often children who feel discomfort with their genitals before ages that many are informed of the opposing, complimenting genital characteristics.

[@Brobese]

@@wowjack8944 Terrible example. It has been observed in studies that babies as young as 3 months old develope visual preferences for their own race even when their familiar with an individual of another race. This does not demonstrate innate racism but rather a psychological process from which the sociological phenomenon of racism could easily arise. You err to assume social constructs have no tangent upon material reality.

[@wowjack8944]

@@Brobese Can you send the name of that study? I only know of some that grew up around people of their race, but not one that grew up with prodomonantly other races. I do know studies of kids preffering the white doll over the black doll, supporting my view.

[@wowjack8944]

@@RomanGoetia Yes, so i normaly heard trans people (that i interacted with online) say that it is because of how they are treated. But in this comment section most are saying its about how you body looks in and of itself.

[@jessiejoy1703]

Holy shit there’s and even longer part 2?!?! Lol

[@micromints1735]

He realizes most trans people don’t get GRS, right?

[@elmonchis2]

Honest, good faith question: is that because of the steep cost and lack of access or just because it's not part of the process for evey trans-person?

[@micromints1735]

@@elmonchis2 Both. Many would like to get it but decide not to because it doesn't allow the bearing of biological children and comes with a vast number of complications.

[@elmonchis2]

@@micromints1735 Understood! Thank you very much for the answer!

[@ImaginaryMdA]

"non-partisan" always a warning sign... He should talk to some IRL trans people. Or actually, probably not. For their sake.

[@zunlise2341]

He talked. To the ones who want to detransition :(

[@eugkra33]

His girlfriend did, and maybe still considers herself trans.

[@NickGhale]

1 hour in, Mr Girl is touching on a concept of clinical significance Vs statistical signifiance, which Rosewrist appears to be unfamiliar with. You need to have an MCID or clinical significance in mind prior to running a study or when making these decisions

[@NickGhale]

Well Nevermind, he just bit the bullet and said that clinical signifiance doesn’t matter as long as no other method can achieve that reduction in that particular way. Jesus

[@kwisatzhaderach2166]

Holyfvck this conversation is fascinating. Mrgirl sure is an interesting guy

[@bgilley8199]

Yeah, constantly referring to gender reassignment surgery as horrifying and "mutilation"...that won't possibly make anyone's gender dysphoria any worse. And does Mr. Girl actually think being "nicer" to trans people will make it so no trans people will want reassignment surgery? Does he not realize that even if society treated trans people perfectly, trans people would still desire to have a certain body type?

[@BornOnThursday]

01:14:00 I feel people who feel they have to be careful want to say things with little to no basis, and likely are going to say something rude or untrue.

[@slowloris2894]

I hate that I like MrGirl. Just like hates that he likes little girls.

[@bobasaurusrexy]

Mr Girl gives me ‘Donny from the movie Ted’ vibes.

[@CrosswaIk]

I've been studying this issue since 2012 and I've only seen 1 sample where you could categorize post op patients into an 'improved space'. Up until 2017 every single study about pre vs post op patients was showing greater than or an equal suicide rate. The treatment can not be an objective surgery. Right now we're treating a psychological issue with a sociological solution.

[@DoctorJellicle]

His whole argument is just "I don't like it so it's bad"

[@cartoonsandcereal3413]

Tbf it is bad and you know it.

[@tylerjmast]

Exactly how I feel about FGM. How do you feel about FGM?

[@cartoonsandcereal3413]

@@tylerjmast its bad

[@deepfriedchocobo]

Must be nice to live in whatever alternate reality mrgirl lives in. There is no science, only common sense.

[@Ray-xr3gj]

He was way too charitable with mr.girl in this debate, I can understand why but it was to a point where he was missing out on huge contradictions/letting points slide ex. the disgust motivator and ignoring science

[@tianamaycry]

Yeah, it was really hard having him listen to MrGirl's atrocious tirades and just going "mhm" "ok"... It kills me, because there's so much that he can't respond to when he lets him gish gallop like that.

[@DoctorJellicle]

This video perfectly exposes how MrGirl's whole "empathy" schtick is complete bs

[@tylerjmast]

Not wanting young ppl to mutilate their genitals is the only truly empathetic position here.

[@avoidantbehavior]

1:02:04 This is the starting point the wildest premise I've ever seen someone accept from a hypothetical. It's probably one of the most unbelievable things I've witnessed.

[@EvanUthus]

The hypothetical is clearly extreme which is why it works as a hypothetical in this situation, the question being asked is whether at any point removing healthy organs would be objectionable even if it could improve a very troubled individual’s mental health if you say yes to the situation being permissible then the question is answered and you can talk about why, if you say no then the question becomes at what point or what criteria do we use to determine if something is objectionable. So this sort of extreme hypothetical effectively frames the basis of the logical discussion going forward. If it were any less extreme it would not serve that purpose.

[@MustbeTheBassest]

"Would you rather this person kill themselves or undergo this crazy, but potentially life saving surgery? What? You chose the surgery?! What the fuck?? We should totally let them kill themselves!" MrGirl who is very smart

[@youtubeiscruel3946]

Why did you say effect size doesn't matter? How could it not?

[@lapsis6582]

Rose looks super cute with these glasses! ♥

[@ataridc]

I can see where the guy is coming from up until he starts being opposed to hormone therapy and anti depressants. 1) I view reassignment surgery in a similar way that I view abortion. It should be a last step in a line of defenses. If puberty blockers and hormone therapy alone can help a trans person feel more like themselves then we can avoid the last step more often, much the same way better sex education and access to birth control would greatly lower abortions. 2) this is such a fundamental misunderstanding of depression works I don't even know where you start. Depression isn't a lack of having a good life. see reckful the young, succesful streamer for proof that sometimes it can be a hyper awareness of your world that steals purpose away from your life. Not to mention anti depressents don't just treat depression. They can help with short tempers, anxiety, focusing problems, etc.

[@eugkra33]

Reckful didn't kill himself because he was hyperaware of his world. Reckful didn't have a good life. Money doesn't buy happiness is what he always said. His brother killed himself, and left a huge hole, and trauma behind. People on the internet treated him like shit, and a lot of streamers have mental health issues from dealing with online BS. Reckful felt abandoned by his best friend growing up, and it left his entire family in ruins.

[@ataridc]

@@eugkra33 By all standards we have to measure a good life, he had achieved it. All the things you're describing we almost all deal with in some way. Depression comes from an inability to find joy in the things people fill their life with to distract themselves from the void that a lot of this is ultimately meaningless Music, video games, books, etc. If life is about skimming above water, many of us occasionally are hit by waves of depression and pulled under temporarily while clinically depressed live their entire lives under water. You seem to have a giant misconception about how life works and in a way that is envious but you can't point to tragedy as a singular justification for being depressed because tragedy is just part of the cycle of life and the vast majority of people cope with it and move on.

[@GoddessTier]

Mr G knows he isn't professionally qualified to speak authoritatively on these topics. Much like his professed love of children, this is all performance art. His metric of success is making money from this.

[@Steven-rn1oo]

That could be applied to almost every political commentator, aside from the weird kid stuff.

[@unicorns1393]

@@Steven-rn1oo nah including the werid kid stuff they just wont admit it

[@mutegamingstuff9120]

Yes, actually it's a good thing if racist people are afraid to talk about how they're racist with other racists. He's kind of defeating his own argument there.

[@performanceenhancingdude5362]

What??!?? So you think that if a racist person is driven to marginalization and persecution for their ideas (whether there ideas are moral or not Is irrelevant) won’t inevitably lead them to further and further radicalization? Not only that wouldn’t you agree that you have also given them the ammunition to further radicalize by fueling there assertions that there being silenced or attacked. Guess what racists are real and they exist. You can’t legislate niceness. However at least if someone is public ally and visibly expressing racism, you know exactly where and who they are. Going about it your way you would have no way of knowing who is it isn’t a secret bigot since it is deleterious to there self interests to incriminate themselves

[@sameash3153]

Why is it a good thing?

[@mutegamingstuff9120]

@@performanceenhancingdude5362 What would be the alternative? Let it be socially acceptable to be openly racist? I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever be able to talk about being racist to anyone, but if people cannot find hate groups of people that agree with them, the beliefs will sort of become less popular, look at how extremism has significantly increased recently since on the internet you can find anyone who will agree with whatever stupid shit you believe. While people should have outlets to deal with their extremism, I think it is generally a good thing if certain beliefs are considered socially unacceptable to have.

[@tianamaycry]

@@sameash3153 Becuase if the racists feel comfortable spouting their racism they'll probably start affecting political change and lynching people again.

[@wheezybackports6444]

35:00 Gender Dysphoria is best defined as a psychological disorder where neural pathways are wired in a way where your internal gender identity does not match your physical sex characteristics. Many individuals who struggle with Gender Dysphoria often have phantom feeling of the sexual characteristics they believe they should have due to their internal gender identity. It has been noted from my personal observation and conversations that trans women can feel the sexual characteristics that are not there physically such as breasts or a vagina. Many individuals with Gender Dysphoria will have an extreme discomfort with their body as they are seeing themselves physically as what their brain believes they should look. Many of these individuals may see a feminine facial structure while seeing a masculine facial structure in the case of transgender women. This phenomenon would be best described as seeing almost 2 seperate people at once as the individuals brain is trying to recognize the individuals body how it believes it should which can cause extreme confusion and discomfort. Many individuals will see themselves as better able to identify with the gender they believe themselves to be. In the case of transgender females they will believe they are better able to identify with cisgender females. In some cases transgender individuals will be on a physical strength and endurance level as the gender they believe themselves to be. This is most commonly seen with intersex individuals. I would also like to mention that the reason many of these individuals start hormone replacment therapy is so they can get most of the characteristics they are missing. Hormone replacement therapy is very helpful when it comes to relieving, stress, depression and anxiety. I do have a hunch that hormones also act on receptors that control mood as well and if we were to take the theory into account that the brain can be structured opposite of physical characteristics brains that are designed to take more estrogen, but get more testosterone instead malfunction causing Gender Dysphoria. I can't say I believe either of you to have much knowledge on these subjects, but I'm not going to throw out what either of you say entirely.

[@MedizinMann]

1:46:53 maybe it’s because you have a song on your channel that’s called im a pe*o, and not because of the trans stuff 🤨 Edit: lol rose caught it too

[@jonnaking3054]

I'm a trans woman and all I want is to be recognized as I would have been had I been on PUBERTY BLOCKERS! I don't think it's fair nor just that I have to be perceived in such a way based on missing a necessary treatment when I was young..... And I don't care how NICE people would be to me, I still want to look FEMALE!

[@joebro4529]

so people finally admit females look a certain way very interesting

[@kwisatzhaderach2166]

You should blame society for making you feel like could magically transform yourself into a female

[@MG-jo7mc]

You're not female though, and we shouldn't be allowing children (who aren't allowed to get a tattoo or drink alcohol) pump their bodies full of puberty retarding drugs and chop parts of their bodies off.

[@honeybeerose4108]

@@MG-jo7mc this is such a dishonest argument, no child is getting sex reassignment surgery, puberty blockers are already used on children with precocious puberty, and she never said she is female she said she wanted to look female, also gender is a social construct and conflating gender with sex doesn't do anything but make you look dumb @Jonna King I'm sorry for these nasty awful replies, honestly it's more reflective on them than you

[@MG-jo7mc]

@@honeybeerose4108 Children are having their breasts amputated. Puberty blockers are used on children with precocious puberty, and the parents are made aware that there are risks of infertility in using them, and they are taken off them when they become a teenager. They are NOT kept on them into their late teens. Are you people capable of uttering a single sentence without lying and misrepresenting reality?

[@Alex-wr6pd]

Worm person here I come.

[@BornOnThursday]

01:19:00 For the Christian vs Muslim argument, does it still take place in the real world or is it an argument for which is better regardless of it being real? Very different; they can both be untrue.

[@l2ubio]

I mean, this is the best argument you can give from his side, no?. Not that he is alone in his way of thinking.

[@BornOnThursday]

His comparison to how many people is, the standards are there, and something has to show results worth pursuing, but further data may reveal why it works or what isn't accounted for.

[@user-rs1wc9qs3n]

As a trans man I appreciate you Rose.

[@mikedunn8130]

THIS GUY ROSE WILL GODOWN IN HISTORY WITH THE LIKES OF DR,LIGHT AND DR WILY

[@latetunnel8892]

I miss Rose Wrist

[@tianamaycry]

Beyond like 1 or 2 of his arguments, Mr. Girls arguments could be made in favor of segregation.

[@hypercortical7772]

wait, how? Segregation didn't occur to me once while watching this?

[@PKAnon]

01:18:51 entire conversation in a nutshell

[@Alex-wr6pd]

My broken syllogism. 1:The transgender community is a minority group with years of terrible treatment. Which leads to protected class socially. 2:scientist take on trans issues. 3:which leads to the scientists acting in bad faith to not harm or go against the trans issues.

[@TriiOneMoreTime]

Perfectly broken down

[@Alex-wr6pd]

@@TriiOneMoreTime thanks

[@ThinWhiteLuke]

@@Alex-wr6pd “My Broken Syllogism” sounds like an early 00s Emo band lol.

[@Alex-wr6pd]

@@ThinWhiteLuke lol

[@Grassroots_Hegemon]

This is one of the best conversations with Mr. Girl

[@BornOnThursday]

( 01:21:00 ) Debate on the color of the sky: Even a blind/color-blind person can hear or see a rating on a wave length scale.

[@Nia-zq5jl]

1:01:20

[@casualmime2792]

If you actually watch girls video this debate comes across super disingenuous. I feel like he’s constantly acting in bad faith.

[@soul-candy-music]

Ok but what do you mean and what evidence do you have?

[@rustyreview]

it sounds like he's never spoken with a trans person. I guess he says his GF is trans (probably just gender fluid). he's also never spoken with a doctor who treats trans people. he has so many presuppositions because he claims he was able to talk his GF out of being trans. he bases his whole opinion around this.

[@SinjiKazama]

It sounds like you're assuming too much. He interviewed trans people. Also a social worker with extensive experience with them. I don't think you understand how well he has thought this through. Even though I don't agree with him on everything, I can still understand where he's coming from because he actually debates with good faith.

[@rustyreview]

@@amazin7006 how should we treat gender dysphoria?

[@cartoonsandcereal3413]

Wow, this MrGirl guy destroyed Rose without even trying. Gonna sub to that guy he's spitting facts.

[@tianamaycry]

Lmaoooooooo. The guy who was complaining about getting pushback won eh? Nah, you're just biased.

[@cartoonsandcereal3413]

​@@tianamaycry You mispelled "based".

[@toonxlink]

Who would've guessed that the pro-Cuties guy would have bad arguments?

[@hokiesalum]

Rose Worm

[@minky2396]

1:39:33

[@Nia-zq5jl]

0000 1:01:20

[@Booer]

Damn- wel.. i think I'm more convinced now on where I lie on this issue

[@PineappAlSauce]

Only 25mins in so far, but it seems like the big divide is in the way they view how successful transgender surgery or HRT are in alleviating “gender dysphoria” Rose Wrist is acting like SRS is a cure for dysphoria when it really doesn’t do that much. That’s why Johns Hopkins stopped performing the surgeries, and I’m pretty sure the head of surgery has a much better understanding of the procedure and results than your favorite twitch streamer 😂 Edit: The comparison to open heart surgery is just stupid. FGM was a much more apt comparison Edit: about an hour in, Rose Wrist does not have anything interesting or insightful to say. It’s all surface level talking points we’ve heard a million times.

[@codawithteeth]

MeGirl making unanalagous comparisons and gesturing vaguely to something other than what’s shown by the available data for two hours.

[@DynamiteProd]

It’s frustrating that rose can’t admit that if it just helped 1% that he would disagree with it. Concede that… if it only helps 1% of the people we probably shouldn’t be advocating genital mutilation… leftists really need to be able to concede these arguments, you sound absolutely insane not doing it.

[@d3l3tes00n]

Good thing genital mutilation isn't what's happening

[@ihavenojawandimustscream4681]

@@d3l3tes00n it is whats happening.Cutting off your penis and turning it into a vagina is genital mutilation just like how cosmetic surgery where they cut open your jaw is facial mutilation

[@atheistmando4976]

@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 neo genitals are pretty cool. And not all of them want genital reassignment. Personally, i wish i can cut the benis off. Have a vagina. But thanks to capitalism, i cant 🙄

[@frisater96]

@@ihavenojawandimustscream4681 That’s not how any one uses the word mutilation, and you know it. Stop being disingenuous.

[@tianamaycry]

I mean, we mutilate the genetals of pretty much every AMAB baby here in the US, and we do that before consent can even be given, so if someone is fully consenting I don't see why we can't let adults make their own decisions about their body. It doesn't effect you.

[@Wh40kk]

This man sounds like such an abuser

[@Yagizino]

Rosewrist vs scuffed mark from pa

[@BubblegumCrash332]

Mr Girl has been watching to much Jordan Peterson

[@BornOnThursday]

Wow, "school is boring", so instead kids should miss out on an education because Mr. girl feels like it's fucked up.

[@anandaalvarez4336]

oor.. maybe make it less boring? That could be too

[@BornOnThursday]

@@anandaalvarez4336 I don't think it's actually related to school being boring (in terms of the medication being prescribed).

[@MustbeTheBassest]

1:08:00 "saying I agree with the experts doesn't mean anything because we are not bound to them" wow... Just wow...

[@MustbeTheBassest]

Hahahah of course, "a political cult has taken over". Well, I think we're done here. Good luck everyone!

[@BornOnThursday]

Fear the cult of non-malpractice academics.