Debt: The First 5,000 Years | David Graeber | Talks at Google

[@DanSolowastaken]

59:36 He took his sip. That was madding. Its a great video. It's a shame Graeber passed away so young, dude totally had at least 10 more book in him. But he doesn't owe any of us a damn thing.

[@JohnVKaravitis]

@@christinalaw3375 And in your case?

[@cryp0g00n4]

How did he die??? OmG

[@chrisconnor8086]

Graeber has an unpaid debt of 10 books to me!

[@DanSolowastaken]

@@chrisconnor8086 I got some baaaad news

[@Lili23467]

@@cryp0g00n4 The complications after Covid.

[@VallenChaosValiant]

I love the point he made on how people who are equals, forgive debts to each other, but as soon as the debt cross class boundaries it suddenly become life-or-death. It explains the bank bailouts so perfectly.

[@pizzamasterf5]

VallenChaosValiant how so

[@ghostandgoblins]

RobertJames12, the structure of Vallen's comment details the reason behind the actual answer. Let me give you a simpler example: It is raining. It explains why Dave is wet. You: How so? But for the bail out situation they are not just equals, they are the same people/family. Revolving door. So it is a stronger version of "equals forgive each other's debts", or accurately; a more corrupt version. I hope that helps.

[@johnstewart7025]

I was reading a racist memoir from Africa in which a white girl describes how natives were honest among themselves but had no qualms about stealing from Europeans. Reminded me of reported looting phenomenon during riots in US.

[@alexkrasnic3850]

No body forgives debts unless its like a few bucks. A rich guy is not going to forget abount a 1000 loan to another rich guy. Roch people sue each other all the time...

[@buglepong]

And people say marx was wrong about class warfare

[@NogGonnaMakeIt]

"His loss is incalculable, but his legacy is immense." I love returning to this video every now and again.

[@gabrielelucci7463]

RIP David. One of the greatest thinkers of our time.

[@carl8568]

Wow, I didn't even know he had passed away 😔

[@AWildBard]

Unfortunately, this is the first time I've heard him speak. I was actually wondering if I could go to his university and be his student. I guess not.

[@MrDuffy81]

How did he die? The illuminati is known to kill progressive thinkers. They’ve been doing it since the days of Socrates and before.

[@edmann1820]

@@AWildBard If you're around London I'd recommend the radical anthropology group. It's free lectures for anyone.

[@AWildBard]

@@edmann1820 Thanks, I'd be interested. But I'm in Korea now.

[@kabongpope]

RIP David, a hell of a thinker and good dude. Take a shot every time he grabs his coffee and doesn't drink it.

[@JLongTom]

Wasted by 20 minutes. Glad to be in good company while I'm at it. RIP David.

[@g04bf031]

@@JLongTom olloo p

[@g04bf031]

Iopoo pollllllooo

[@buddhahat]

In another talk I've watched he takes his glasses off and puts them back on constantly!

[@nightoftheworld]

Rest in power

[@aLiveanddirect]

His coffee mind-games are strong, but his analysis of debt is stronger!

[@tonypavia91]

Yeah. Cool.

[@coreycox2345]

Churchill used to let the ask on his cigar get ridiculously long to the same effect, Aids LiveAndDirect.

[@DavidJimenez-wj8wj]

I was once traveling in rural Tunisia and - not understanding this compliment/give tradition (26:01) - I complimented a guy on his shirt. He smiled, immediately took it off, and insisted I take it. What a different world...

[@_darkerblue]

most likely he was emulating the tradition of our Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him).It is reported that one time the Prophet was wearing a beautiful cloak or shirt. A man commented that he liked the cloak and would want to have it for himself. The prophet went to his house, came back wearing another cloak and gave the earlier one to him.

[@hfyaer]

If he didn't give it to you, the evil eye would be on it and it would eventually get damaged. There's a way to make compliment without expressing desire. But frankly for a t-shirt that's extreme, maybe it was just an attempt at getting something in return.

[@DavidJimenez-wj8wj]

Ah, makes sense - thanks for that explanation.@@hfyaer

[@mrweirdguy5249]

​@@hfyaerI live in the Muslim World and this is completely off the mark lmao. I don't know about Tunisia in particular but at least where I am from anyway people generally don't put much emphasis on material things unless they are very westernized.

[@ys621]

__David Graeber drinking game rules__ - Every time he picks his coffee up and puts it down without drinking anything, take a sip. - If he picks up his coffee and actually drinks it, down your drink. - When the talk finishes, everyone toasts. Rest in power, you beautiful boy.

[@Covertfun]

I'm at 46' and really enjoying it. My headphones are working and I'm going to do ALL THE DISHES and laundry folding until the talk ends.

[@Covertfun]

@@adriandeenedy6363 the laundry is never done unless everybody's naked. So yeah just put the last of it away

[@ShadyRonin]

@@Covertfun thank you for answering, I've been fretting for more than 6 years about this.

[@wyleong4326]

The most beautiful KZbin comment thread I’ve seen so far. 6 years ago. 1 week apart. What is time but a socially accepted convention, just like debt...

[@saminabinet]

Wow, that’s tall! If, as your surname might suggest, the rest of your family stands at fifteen yards or so, that’d be an extraordinary amount of laundry. And dishes!

[@wendigo2442]

I dont give a fuck

[@michaelreich916]

Around 31:00 he basically explains how legal systems emerging out of violence probably created the first things akin to "money" and "currency" and how this subsequently also explains the strong moral power of debt itself.

[@olgafatica3445]

Yes, big point that one!

[@carsonwall2400]

David Graeber was an amazing person and thinker. He will be missed.

[@alotofwank]

david graeber is currently DOMINATING my personal collection of people worth listening to

[@danielmartins7870]

agreed !

[@runs_through_the_forest]

@Internet Connection reptillian royalty using 5g to give you a virus called "the crown".. all to make us give up the few so called rights we claim to have won from our overlords 60 to 150 years ago.. don't forget to download the corona app ;)

[@LokiBeckonswow]

yanis varoufakis up there also, and of course ruter bregman 🔥

[@NikoHL]

What a terrible loss to a humane society.. RIP David

[@FacePaster]

I'm wondering if perhaps he has already finished the coffee before he started, reaches for it because he wants a drink, then realizes that it's empty, over and over.

[@loxodonwizard9867]

We're all guilty of doing this, at least a few times with a single cup

[@saminabinet]

A stoner friend once observed that stoners never dispose of empty disposable lighters

[@ryanseapy]

You got it. You can hear it is empty when he puts it down. 1:07:56

[@LawrenceMeisel]

Now that you mention it, I can't NOT see it. Thanks. 😬

[@sleeknub]

No, he actually drinks from it in the end.

[@geoffreymclean2597]

Very in-depth discussion. Thoroughly enjoyed this gentleman's analysis on the matter.

[@vincenttayelrand]

I think this book is the most important book on economics since Adam Smith's Wealth of the Nations. I do wonder why anthropologists are the only ones that seem to make sense in science today.

[@Stefmanovic]

Hmm, maybe that's also the reason why anthropologist are shunned so much at the labour market?

[@vincenttayelrand]

Probably. Nobody likes a smart ass ;)

[@silasambrosio742]

Vincent Tayelrand Not to mention his book vehemently criticizes Smith and his butt-buddy Locke.

[@anzus762]

M. Hfm. He essentially did not. His main argument was that “you base your findings on the labour theory of value, and the labour theory of value is stupid because my Austrian mentors said so!” The basis for this argument was however lacking. Outside the neoliberal economics sphere, that line of reasoning is far from a truism. You must first defend your stance before you establish your views as an axiom for further discussion. Selgin did not do that, and therefore failed in his criticism of Graeber's dept theory.

[@onestagetospace4892]

Why use or even mention a theory that is completely subjective and unquantifiable? Oh yes, I forgot. Economic theory, be it Austrian or other, is a subjective discipline and historians nor economists don't seem to really understand this. "Value" cannot be quantified. It is idiotic to try to define a term that cannot be used as a basis for any reliable quantifiable approach to the distribution of, ownership of and transactions regarding human or physical resources. You can try of course, but it leads to mere babbling. Start with something you can measure. Start with counting resources. Not services. Atoms.

[@leighclark5257]

Brilliant, fearless mind, gone too soon. Clear, detailed, systematic analysis, constantly engaging.

[@johnswabey3303]

RIP David. 8 years ago, thinking through this video did a lot to help me build perspective on the mechanics of one our greatest inventions for banking on future outcomes.

[@yourmajesty1630]

fking tragedy this fine mind, fine researcher, good hearted man, died so young when he had so much more to give us. tragedy.

[@modern_eel]

i can't believe all this is being spoken and understood in 2012 and JUST NOW nearly 10 years later, I am coming to know and understand this stuff. This could be so game changing.

[@jelenakatic1778]

If you’re not already familiar, check out MMT, that’ll blow your mind even further. I come back to this lecture at least once a year, even though I’ve read David’s books. Anyway, here’s my short playlist, MMT 101 kzbin.info/aero/PL1kFbkkk5eA7tjVuR4gNaMYlge38p1isk

[@fuad000100]

​@@jelenakatic1778Thanks for this. I love 1dimes videos and it's great to see people showing interest in this issue when there's so much misconception about deficit

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

​@@jelenakatic1778Spoken like a true evangelist for the illuminated way!

[@bunnieskitties293]

I wonder how many people were honestly asking about the cup. Everyone has social ticks, gestures they make, things they do to abate the nervousness all humans experience when speaking in front of others. Holding an object is a good way to keep the hands busy.

[@Skiamakhos]

My take-aways from the book were basically debt = good, normal, social glue; stigmatising debt, holding debt as a moral failing of the debtor = bad; money puts definite numbers on debt, is often a substitute for violence, or a cause of violence and/or even a medium for doing violence together with stigmatised, non-forgivable debt.

[@jamduke]

"Commerce says we ought to frame everything in terms of debt and exchanges, but actually... we can't". What a devastatingly poignant and even, dare I say authoritative statement of our humanity. To sum it up so shortly: "We can't." We just can't, it just goes against every fiber of our being, and if we do transgress this limit, what hell are we in for...

[@margaretnacey9137]

Just look around

[@baptizednblood6813]

That’s the ideology of neoliberalism we’ve been spiraling down in since Reagan. As the comment above me says…

[@Fractured_Unity]

But shouldn’t poor people OWE ME money? It just feels right and I will never interrogate that thought my whole life

[@mlun]

At 16:30: the sound that the cup makes hints at it being empty

[@PotatoCider]

but you can hear him swallowing a sip at 59:33

[@MrRhino194]

I enjoyed the lecture though. If anything it showed me how people who care about each other trade. But the simple fact that can't escape my mind is not everyone cares about each other.

[@moodist1er]

That was the real sin of Sodom

[@Mad_Intellect]

@@moodist1er How about that...and here I am thinking that it was all the butt sex that was going on lol.

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

Relationships can be built.

[@johnconlon9652]

I have considered myself an anarchist since the late 60s, without much intellectual information; the interim has been difficult. This bloke superb; wish I had found out about him years ago. An American Anarchist in London; a film perhaps.

[@raise_the_black_flag]

I know this is quite an old comment, but I implore you to listen to the podcast "Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff," especially the episodes about the anarchist revolution in the Spanish Civil War, Kronstadt, and Maria Nikiforova. most episodes are about a person, movement, or revolution from the history of anarchism. It's incredibly inspiring.

[@jeffreykozma8068]

Great talk. The idea that human interaction and human society is based on debt is quite profound. That story of the African village was a perfect example.

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

Well he was saying rather the social power dynamics as playing out and negotiated cyclically depending on whether the context was personal or impersonal. Emerging from ~ 600 bc - 600 ad. Sumerian records much older...

[@StephenNicoletti-g9i]

I can listen to this guy all day long.

[@erictko85]

This book was incredible. Last 4 main chapters: “The Axial Age (800BC - 600 AD)”, “The Middle Ages (600 - 1450 AD)”, “The Age of the Great Capitalist Empires (1450 - 1971)”, “The Beginning of Something Yet to be Determined (1971 - Present)”....... YOU SHOULD READ THIS BOOK!! At least these chapters, but if you read these you will want to read the whole thing.

[@erictko85]

Also, the audiobook in English is very good. The narration of Grover Gardener is a good match for Graeber’s style and subject matter. Graebers logical yet playful style leads you along almost like in a conversation, so this book benefits from the audiobook format.

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

​@@erictko85❤

[@gordondills2773]

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

[@michstockholm1164]

Finally a economical analysis that makes sense! Thanks David.

[@finchbevdale2069]

He's an anthropologist, so his research is based on empirical evidence, unlike most of the work on mainstream economics.

[@signalfire6]

The difference between owing a bank and owing a friend or community member is, that community member is not pretending to be your friend; you both have an equal stake in the village's health and welfare. The banker is pretending to be your friend while plotting the interest you're going to owe him. I like what he says in the beginning about 'the purpose of interest is because there's risk involved'. From my point of view, the way to bring down this whole gangster-like system is to borrow profusely and then default. Over and over and over again. Weirdly, the bankers never pay the criminal price of their criminal behavior. If politicians and corporations were held responsible for their effect on society, they'd all be summarily executed and we'd be rid of their kind, at least until the next generation of sociopaths and psychopaths appeared.

[@magnuscritikaleak5045]

The banker is a gangster

[@magnuscritikaleak5045]

@@mysterynewsbrasil there are so many pyschopaths and heartless unempathetic people in Discord Game Society Fandoms. It is worrying me about the future conflict of interests in our society.

[@NS-pj8dr]

"From my point of view, the way to bring down this whole gangster-like system is to borrow profusely and then default. Over and over and over again." fucking excellent idea

[@38gonzaga]

Do it once and you fica score make you ineligible!

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

​@@38gonzagauh, by then I'll be in the americas living a full life.

[@donach9]

I haven't watched this video yet, but in his book he shows convincingly that 'the myth of barter' is just that: there never has been a society where the majority of goods were distributed by a system relying on the 'double coincidence of wants'. Originally there was communism (or if that word offends you, diffuse reciprocity); as exchange systems developed they were systems of debt and credit, coinage came a few millennia later in order that soldiers would have something to use with strangers.

[@MrFairbanksak1]

22:58

[@OpiatesAndTits]

I think when people talk about communism in this sense they mean primitive communism in nomadic hunter gatherer society So this is small hunter gatherer groups working together and sharing. Now is this story a fantasy like the barter one? Maybe. But I think a system of beneficial mutual aid where "property" amounted what you wore/used each day is likely. This is what would precede debt. I feel like the concept of debt requires more complex concepts of personal property, certainly language, and a stability/community which were impossible in largely nomadic hunter gatherer societies. Is any of this an arguement FOR Marxian communism (the way debt used to be handled, primitive communism, etc.)? No, I agree is seperate. Marxian communism is a post-industrial revolution philosophy. It assumes a classless, statless, and moneyless society can not only maintain that industrial and technological advancement, but also expand it to the point where we reach "post-scarcity". What that looks like and how we get there isn't exactly clear. To Marx this is an inevitibly, but the only inevitibly I get out of Marx's work is that the current system is failing and must change. Either voluntarily through democratizing forces or through revolutionary forces.

[@jared_r]

It makes perfect sense.

[@balsarmy]

@@OpiatesAndTits People also mean USSR as communism and scare people with blood revolution.

[@Bisquick]

@@OpiatesAndTits Well as you say, the only inevitability posed by Marx himself is precisely the internal instability of contradictions that fuel the system and their necessary resolution in some form, the other option of potential future Marx poses, should the working class not reach a unified class consciousness capable of carrying out global revolution, is "the common ruin of the contending classes." Engels was the one more into trying to scientifically codify the whole thing, though even there he offered plenty of caveats for consideration (in so doing he also happened to predict both World Wars on the macro scale, something Lenin wrote about, Lenin himself predicting quite a bit in regards to US imperialism and the role of finance capital in that construction of empire - see: Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism). Just because I think it's relevant to this point and just applicable in general today in terms of our concerning collective ambivalence to actually fight back (largely from awareness/trauma of the past I would say, not exactly unjustified in other words), by viewing the arc of technology under the capitalist mode of production as the replacement of the worker (since this necessarily will generate massive profits as reward), including an inevitabile necessity of replacing mental labor after certain industrial limitations are reached, which I would argue is an abstract prediction of computers, he posited the potential of the system itself to become so simultaneously totalizing and automated in the constantly shifting but technologically effective appendages we add to it, that we create an equilibrium of interlocking exploitation scaled so massively we cannot collectively escape its constantly reifying ideological bounds, reaching a potential plateau of atomization in a closed loop that humanity is compelled to serve purely for its own perpetuation. Essentially a slow devolution into what we would perceive from modernity as a more "mythological" system of social relations of the past based on like a relationship to god as opposed to relationship to like "merit" which I would say is essentially the bourgeois hierarchical appeal (shittily paraphrasing all of this, but I think Horkheimer/Adorno characterized this dialectical tension between myth/"enlightenment" in The Dialectic of Enlightenment far better if that last part made no sense, hopefully it did though). So actually, here maybe this is explained better in some of his own words: _“Once adopted into the production process of capital, the means of labour passes through different metamorphoses, whose culmination is the… automatic system of machinery… set in motion by an automaton, a moving power that moves itself; this automaton consisting of numerous mechanical and intellectual organs, so that the workers themselves are cast merely as its conscious linkages.”_ - “The Fragment on Machines” in The Grundrisse I mean really all we need to realize is the indisputably arbitrary nature of our social systems and hell our very existence, and meet this crisis of meaning not by retreating back into hierarchical enforcement of social orders of the past, but by cultivating this empathetic conscious grounding of ourselves to each other to transcend any of our perceived superiority and consequential hubris mandated by our egos to instead embrace universality and the value of our entire unified "world spirit" to generate one that liberates us all. Or as Graeber so succinctly put it: _"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently."_ Or something.

[@artcenterjo]

thought provoking and informative; an eye opener in many respects. thank you

[@instituteforexperimentalar7493]

DAVID GRAEBER was a founding member of the Institute for Experimental Arts He did a lecture with the title: How social and economic structure influences the Art World in the Financial Consequences - International MultiMedia Poetry Festival organized by the Institute for Experimental Arts supported by LSE Department of Anthropology. Influential anthropologist David Graeber, known for his 2011 volume Debt: The First 5000 Years speaks about the correlation between the cultural sphere and society. The intellectuals and the artists create an imaginary way to criticize the economic system in any era. Art can overcome hegemonic frameworks and acknowledge other possible worlds, offer us the opportunity to understand better the marginalized social entities. Social exclusion is the process in which individuals or people are systematically blocked from (or denied full access to) various rights, opportunities and resources that are normally available to members of a different group, and which are fundamental to social integration and observance of human rights within that particular group (e.g., housing, employment, healthcare, civic engagement, democratic participation, and due process). As the economic crises go deeper in time more people face the effects of exclusion. Art and social sciences can give voice to the voiceless. Especially young social aware poets can give us a clear view of the real social effect of the financial consequences. - David Graeber You can watch the Lecture here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXSpXmuFhs9jiKc

[@MichaelMillerGR]

This is fascinating! "The vast majority of social movements have been caused by debts"

[@nmarks]

Rest in peace David Graeber. 😢

[@MrFizmath]

The issue is usury, once a mortal sin but now no longer in modern churches.

[@turquoiseafro1520]

The economist, Michael Hudson, has written about debt. Including learning & translating the Summarian version of the Bible where forgive them of their sins was actually mistranslated from forgive them of their debts. Western civilization (starting from Romans/Greeks) is the only civilization that does not include debt jubilee/forgiveness built in.

[@johannageisel5390]

What do you mean? In the German version of "The Lord's Prayer" it also has the dual meaning of "sin/debt".

[@johnmightymole2284]

​@@johannageisel5390 what do you mean?

[@staninjapan07]

Very interesting. I could not help but notice how he picks up the cup every couple of minutes but I didn't see him drink anything. Sounds like the cup is completely empty. Not an on-topic comment I know, but once I noticed it I couldn't help but concentrate on it every time he did it. Great talk thanks.

[@DaveE99]

“The vast majority of social movements in history have been about debt.” So there is a precedent.

[@PaulHirsh]

When is he going to take a sip from that cup?

[@ourlast4ever267]

+Paul Hirsh the suspense is killing me lol

[@heartsandbrains]

+Paul Hirsh 59:22

[@bigfletch8]

+El Judah I He obviously hadn't paid for it....;-) I was actually drinking a coffee when I was watching it, and started to fee guilty. I wanted to pause the tape, so he could without interruption !!!He's definitely onto something. Perhaps the anthropologists version of quantum entanglement.

[@ourlast4ever267]

Anxiety and nervousness from public speaking. Clearly

[@geot4647]

+El Judah I Seems unlikely, being as he's a professor who speaks all the time. Probably just a distraction or thought-train loss.

[@SentimentalApe]

Sincerely stated, “Why would they do that? They’re neighbors.” This profoundly simple and plainly generous sentiment is my dream.

[@voltcorp]

Which is why it's plainly ridiculous that the latest batch of capitalism apologists want to pretend they have anything worthwhile to say about "human nature"

[@staninjapan07]

Seems even more relevant nine years after I first saw it.

[@glassblender]

Graeber was truly the GOAT

[@hereigoagain5050]

Coffee cups will be empty in efficient markets, but it doesn't hurt to check now and again for market inefficiencies.

[@muaythaiguy6669]

This guy is a cool thinker. I like the way he paints a picture in your mind. He also reminds me of the skateboarder Rodney Mullen.

[@Rob-777]

ahah :)

[@koredeaderele1666]

1:09:36 "Debt means something totally different depending on who it's between"

[@magvad6472]

My bet is that the cup is empty, and every time he grabs it he feels it is empty and puts it back. During the speech, he is so concentrated on the speech that he forgets that it is empty, gets thirsty again, and then goes for the cup in a vicious cycle.

[@yagruumbagaarn]

Freaking google couldn't afford to give a refill for the keynote speaker's coffee?

[@Bisquick]

it's like...a metaphor maaaan. The coffee was inside us the whole time.

[@MysticManifesting]

@@Bisquick three years later a woman somewhere on Pennsylvania is cracking up over your comment. Brilliant.

[@seankelly1291]

"if everybody did it, it would work" that makes so much sense to me.

[@pamelasupanick2620]

I’m surprised that David did not mention the Knights Templar and their role in the development of the modern trust entity, of which banks are. In many places in the talk, where he uses the term “credit” I substituted the term “trust” to get a clearer concept. For example he describes neighbor-to-neighbor care-based interactions as rudimentary forms of “credit trading,” …these interactions are the outworkings of caring and trust among those who view each other as equals.

[@JoeyDaBull]

yea he totally missed the knights templar

[@ItchyColt-zh5or]

@@JoeyDaBull lol

[@Jone952]

His description of money as something governments gave their soldiers then taxed back is very much in line with MMT. It's fundamentally a tax credit

[@jelenakatic1778]

Finally someone in this comment section knows about MMT. Cheers!

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

​@@jelenakatic1778Sure...it's a fanatic dogma tho, pretending as "theory". Gary Stevenson (UK) pulls no punches about it, n I like that.

[@philgwellington6036]

1.08.12 "We're gonna have to do green capitalism and declare an emergency". Sounds kinda contemporary to our current global situation. Well done David 👍

[@HairSuitGentleman]

Such a great lecture with such great historical insights. I can’t believe Adam Smith took his pin factory example from an 11th century Islamic text!

[@sandeepvk]

_Couldn't help but notice the numbers of times he picked up the coffee mug, only to put it back withouth taking a sip._

[@megawutt]

RIP David You will be missed :(

[@zpaulocarraca9168]

Ancient Rome / Latin: soldo=money soldier=receives soldo

[@jeffberner8206]

Ancient Rome / Latin: plumbum=lead plumber=works with lead

[@williamschlich8389]

Very interesting talk, shame that Graeber is not the most engaging speaker

[@DaveE99]

Debt is sacred only in situations of coercion and extreme inequality. Meaning it can’t be forgiven. It’s moral to pay it. So because a wealthier more. Powerful person loaned you money, that debt is moral and right and is viewed as can’t be forgiven. But debt between equals , people that like each other, can be forgiven. Wow!

[@Hands2HealNow]

These are the experiences that have needed to be included in our cultural conversations.

[@ObeySilence]

In German the word for debt on a monetary level is the same word as guilt - Schuld. The English word guilt has a Germanic root meaning money. Today money in Germany is still "Geld" - see the similarity with guilt?

[@KD-rs6xx]

Also Guild

[@weareham3068]

I enjoyed the talk but I can’t stand the number of intellectuals who spend hours reviewing the faults of a system but when asked how they would fix it say “well I have a lot of ideas, but I think the first step is a radical change.” A change of what? Addressing the faults of debt markets is pretty meaningless if you don’t even suggest an alternative beyond “change.”

[@abdullahbueno7532]

Cosmo Kramer would have said, “ this video is making me thirsty “ take a drink already. Excellent info , came here after listening to Michael Hudson who mentions this work.

[@Sinleqeunnini]

The Enmetena Cone and the Umma-Lagash border war of Sumer! Graeber makes Sumerology relevant to the modern day.

[@VishnuVaratharajan]

46:50 "...we've always assumed there is an opposition between these things [governments and markets]. Historically, in fact, no. Markets tend to be created by governments as a side effect of military operations. They sometimes take on a life of their own but the origins, they are very closely linked."

[@chrisyates2591]

A master class in how to engage people. So knowledgeable.

[@markjohnson5276]

I have a friend in central Wisc. He opened his frig one day and showed me it was full. He said all of it was bartered from the farmers up and down the road where he lived. Eggs, poultry, bread, milk, butter, cheese, meat, vegetables. No money had changed hands. This is how they live. NO MONEY!

[@VeganRevolution]

This all made a lot of sense! RIP bro

[@kaustubhsathe1239]

Simply brilliant man. RIP David.

[@Liberty_Freedom_Brotherhood]

I’m 5 minutes into the talk David has grabbed his coffee twice but has not taken a sip… When will the first sip be? The anticipation is immense😂

[@reggiep75]

He's never gonna drink from that cup.... He's not supposed to. Even in the future, in another time and place, he'll not drink from another cup either. And it's ALL a deliberate focus point (or ploy) to make you store info as you focus deeper onto the cup and relax and casually press CTRL + S into your minds keyboard and save the info you are receiving, highly important info you'll need to recall from time to time. You'll remember the name David Graeber and the important info you were given, with ease. Keep focusing on the cup and relax, the info is going in... relax.

[@tinagvardanyan8627]

I think you might be right!

[@fistfull1]

Tina,reggie,providing a tool of neural linguintist programming,

[@MikiPannell]

Amazing work. Good man! We owe you one....

[@kieronmcnulty6177]

nice

[@ArtAristocracy]

"That sort of commonsensical, 'but of course you have to pay your debt', then the argument, 'but actually, really no, that doesn't make any sense'. That conversation has been happening for about 5,000 years itself. - Graeber

[@saoreika]

I came here to see him drink coffee. Worth the wait

[@georgeloizou1090]

He kept picking up his coffee cup and putting it down because it was empty....and his hosts didn’t even bring him water after he had been talking for an hour...

[@arlaban22]

THIS GUY IS SUPREMELY INTELLIGENT🙂😀.

[@bergweg]

17:00 not only do most human relations become commercial (because of debt) but they also make it hard and harder for non-commercial relations to exist, you could call this collateral damage.

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

It's a Catch 22. A real f^ckery, as they say.

[@homerco213]

Best intro ever, RIP David.

[@bay4rl]

rest in power, you. so many thanks.

[@devlab5388]

The parable of the speaker and the cup is deep

[@midnightmadeit_]

Crazy data set

[@hunter-vg1yn]

We are born indebted, and time begins collecting on that debt in that very moment.

[@clareomarfran]

A guy to amaze, smart as hell, intriguing work... but, yeah, after the 11th time he picked up the cup (which sounds empty when he puts it down, though he doesn't drink: I was counting aloud after the 4th time) I had to lower my laptop lid so I wouldn't get further distracted from his words.

[@DNBon.an808]

I miss David like I knew him.

[@noezwayout76]

I had a conversation with someone that said they valued their education more when they paid for it. It never occurred that this was a time when education was still affordable and meant something other than enriching the self (my graduate school equals years of free labor and tons of loans). The unbelievable burden of debt and the inability to pay it back is the only reason I dropped out of my first graduate school. I'd advocate dropping out for any new graduate student rather than settling for losing financial freedom. I wish I'd understood getting in was the easiest part. Paying it off, that was the worst. The mental stress has deteriorated the quality of material my mind has retained. At this point, I keep desiring to continue my education, but I'm so afraid that this is just another trap. I've completed upper level education and menial labor jobs over the span of my life. Aren't college degrees worth something other than mountains of debt? Intrinsically, I wouldn't take back any of my schooling, but that adds no monetary value. According to business savy individuals, I'm not a "go getter." Does this mean my acquired skills mean zilch? Sheesh! Rant over, I do apologize.

[@gebs123]

"Aren't college degrees worth something other than mountains of debt?" I see this question a lot among people finishing their degrees, and it always make me ponder if they trying to mask that they basically paid money for the realization that they shouldn't have spent the money.

[@spadekersey4102]

@@gebs123 You're essentially saying, he paid for the experience and knowledge that his college was able to give. The newfound experiences and stores of knowledge allowed him to change his mind, right? Shelving the idea of wether or not he "paid for the realization that (he) shouldn't have spent the money," do you believe a college degree (or in this example, a missed shot of an opportunity) should only have a cost associated with it? Just because society has structure doesn't make it correct. Just because you knew better than to spend your own money in your own circumstances doesn't mean you think the degree should inherently be valued negatively.

[@gebs123]

@@spadekersey4102 I feel like you may have made an assumption about me. I have 2 College degrees, and am working on a third. My second degree helped put me in a very stable upper-middle class tier. However, I keep tabs on the people that I went to college with, and most of them are not as lucky. A lot of them don't have a career job, and the half of them that do, aren't in a field that matches their degree. That was what I was trying to get across. A degree is an expensive tool, and some people don't realize that until after the spent the money for it.

[@spadekersey4102]

@@gebs123 Agreed, full heartedly.

[@smegleymunroe863]

Education has a tremendous amount of non-market value. It’s to the spiritual and material benefit of everyone to have highly educated citizens. A capitalist political economy doesn’t want to recognise this, so it encourages education to be thought of as a tool for economic advancement

[@darrellee8194]

I was expecting that he was going to make some point about that cup. When he sets it down it sounds like it's empty. It's funny how that cup is exactly in the center of the frame. Ah what a relief, he finally takes a drink at the end during the applause. 59:34

[@spiritualeco-syndicalisthe207]

Rest in peace. It's on us to continue.

[@guharup]

Bought this book, gave it away. Too much pamphlet too little actual data work

[@chazkendallify]

Rest in power. The cup wasn’t the point.

[@nthperson]

The Founding Father who best understood the principles of a just political economy was Thomas Paine. Paine was influenced by Smith and Turgot, who detailed the destructive character of the system of land tenure of the Old World, a system essentially carried over into the New World. In "Agrarian Justice," Paine asserted that the owners of land owed to society a ground rent for the privilege. In most of the world for most of history, as observed by Smith, Turgot and (later) Henry George, the rents were privatized which caused land to come to have a selling price. As the selling price of land rose, so did the necessity for most purchasers of land to do so with credit at interest.

[@LowestofheDead]

That sounds like Henry George's philosophy, where most or all taxes could be replaced by land value tax which is spent on local infrastructure.

[@nthperson]

@@LowestofheDead Read my comment a bit more closely. I do mention Henry George as the person who carried forward Turgot's efforts to make the case scientifically. Paine argued for the public capture of "ground rents" as part of his argument against privilege. It was left to Henry George to combine both motivations and start a social movement, a movement that survives with some successes to its credit.

[@ElegantHipster]

Debt Jubilee does sound much nicer than bankruptcy. Yes I had to declare Debt Jubilee last year. Sounds like a fun party lol

[@NWOALERT]

Thank you David, Rest In Peace

[@cassianowogel]

There's something in him that reminds me of Tarantino

[@stevesmith4901]

Him taking that sip of his coffee at the end was a cathartic moment for me.

[@K1989L]

"The first 5, 000 years" Funnily enough that's exactly the amount of times he takes tha coffee cup to his hand and places it back without taking a sip.

[@philippedambournet468]

This is an extraordinary talk.

[@debralegorreta1375]

When good neighbors incur "debts" say in neolithic times, that debt had a time stamp. If you don't collect your debt, it's forgotten, i.e. forgiven. I am no longer in your debt if either I keep forgetting and you don't hint at my repaying, or you just don't care and even if I try to repay you say, "forget it, that was a long time ago." Debt had a shelf life and it certainly did not compound.

[@chancemcdermott2046]

somebody owes this man a glass of water

[@MrRhino194]

What an amazing lecture. Really opened me up to many new trains of thought. But one thing. How does a credit/gift based society (which seems to be his ideal) survive with constant stranger encounters. Two complete strangers seem unlikely, especially if they speak 2 different languages, to engage in a credit/gift trade with one another. All of this empirical evidence deals with tight communities. Hell I trade a lot in credit/gifts with my family and close friends, but not with the constant...

[@voltcorp]

considering he's an anarchist he probably envisioned a future where a "global economy" was closer to a network of tight communities instead of a global tight community of billionaires. we can still have markets and commerce, just not as the main driving force of our very existence and survival.

[@genossinwaabooz4373]

Imo the credit/gift econ applies to contexts of lateral power, legal equality, personal (local) markets, probably village - town in scale. Too big, becomes impersonal...begets the issues corellated with that context.

[@voltcorp]

@@genossinwaabooz4373 His next big work before passing, The Dawn of Everything, discusses the argument that "as civilizations get more complex they inevitably get more unequal". I suggest a reading of it, but his research partner David Wengrow has some talks on that here on KZbin.

[@colintan3638]

RIP Graeber. One of the most creative, smart ... actually, he wouldn't care about that. He used what he had, to do what he believed in, he would have tried to do as much regardless, I believe. Most influential person in the last decade, in my books. Deceivingly innocuous talks at x2 speed. But unwaveringly Intellectually honest, a firm caustic critic of the most obvious of things, truths we all know ... and they go on. So this quirky, cup touching, seemingly harmless guy steps in, starts a tidal wave. It is hard for tech or politicians to turn this ship 180 degrees around. Mars? Meh... 100 million km away, no water currently .. certainly habitable. Likely inhabitable for say, grandma .... anyone above 60? Well at least that keeps congress aligned, the average age Members of Congress is what? 60? Among the oldest in U.S. history. But just nice, thank god. Oh, wait no, that's now. Yeah. no. Ok, that makes sense.