Decimator PSA! - Properly Converting SDI to HDMI

The default values on Decimator (and other SDI to HDMI converters) can be improperly converting your signals and ruining your video.
This video walks through showing you the problem, how to identify the problem (with video scopes) and practical examples of where you will encounter this in the real-world.
Below are some affiliate links to most of the gear I use to make my videos, happy recording!
Decimator MD-HX - A True marvel of video conversion magic: amzn.to/3Z5Oy8n
Blackmagic's version: amzn.to/3Z3LD06
Decimator MD-LX: amzn.to/3KJW2K2
Blackmagic 3G SDI to HDMI Bi-Directional Cross Converter: amzn.to/3SrLxN2
Seetec Monitor used in this video: amzn.to/3xixqDm
Blackmagic ATEM used in this video (it’s the original mini version which they no longer make, but the next cheapest option is the Mini Pro:) amzn.to/3VHIzYI
Camcorder used in this video for testing: amzn.to/3TxjGMk
My black Polo shirts for “on-show” productions (that I’m also wearing in this video), these shirts have a dual pen pocket on the left sleeeve, and a sunglasses or radio holder mid-chest under the buttons: amzn.to/3IYchRu
Audio Gear I use:
Awesome shotgun mic that's also a USB Mic: amzn.to/3j1nW5b
Industry Standard Headphones, Sony MDR-7506: amzn.to/3FOfoIG
Rode Wireless Go II: amzn.to/3dr9gwO
Current Studio Monitors: amzn.to/3OkO21U
Subwoofer: amzn.to/3V2IbQQ
Secondary Monitors: amzn.to/3GnwQXz
Camera used to film this video: amzn.to/3XRzHgC
Sigma 16-28: amzn.to/3iX6vGo
Overhead camera: amzn.to/3Y5gsjw
Closeup overhead shots: amzn.to/3Mv3lEd
Lens: amzn.to/3jKpPDr
Secondary Lens: amzn.to/3vGizOP
External Recorder: amzn.to/3Alvid5
Other cool camera gear I use:
Manfrotto Pixie Tripod: amzn.to/3F8aepK
Smallrig Mini Tripod: amzn.to/3JQd0Ud
Articulating arm for my microphone: amzn.to/3f8Km2p
Backup and Cheap Microphone - Movo VXR10: amzn.to/3G9EUbi
K&F Concept Camera Tripod (Goes up to almost 7 feet!!): amzn.to/3f7x3zi
External Monitor, Atomos Shinobi: amzn.to/3tfxTSH
For Recording Externally with my Sony A7iii: amzn.to/3JUwZB2
#decimator #panasonic #sonya7iv
ep:92

[@MasterOmetaL]

Marcus, you're an awesome teacher. Always a pleasure to learn form you.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Thanx Slava!! I hope you're doing well sir!

[@YBBSportsData]

Scopes Don’t Lie 🔥 that’s t-shirt worthy

[@MarcusHutsell]

😎

[@YBBSportsData]

Thanks for the info! In my notes, time to double check the MD-HX and LXs

[@jameswalmsley4956]

Really appreciate you sharing this

[@MarcusHutsell]

My pleasure!

[@ivarmh]

This video really feeds the nerd brain. Brilliant! Learned so much from this. Thank you!

[@MarcusHutsell]

You're welcome! And thank you!

[@randomgeocacher]

Ha, good to know. Just ordered one of these and sounds like the default is good for my upcoming use-case (HDMI out to venue projector) but who knows what the future holds. Better knowing this now than debugging such issues later when you are on a hurry in the field.

[@Aaronorosz]

Very awesome 😎. Very helpful demonstration. Thank you

[@MarcusHutsell]

Thank you, very glad it helped!

[@EarlyGates]

Very well done video 👍

[@MarcusHutsell]

Thank you!

[@mudbone32]

very clear explanation, good to know thanks bud :)

[@MarcusHutsell]

Glad to help!

[@FAMEAcademyNY]

Wow. Thanks!!!

[@MarcusHutsell]

You're welcome!

[@RefurbishedPrototype]

I guess this miss comes from pounding through load ins and sets to get to show look for the client to walk in. Really good reason to go through your gear and just punch through things to see how it fails. Thank you for this. Makes a ton of sense. Edit: is this a cheap, bad chroma hack? /s

[@MarcusHutsell]

I Know!! I never understand why the client only books the room starting at 8 am and wants to be ready for rehearsals by 10 am. Oye, the bane of production-life. Where I really starting noticing issues and doing more testing was when using cameras and proper production monitors within live productions. For years, everyone just puts a computer monitor on the order and thinks that's good enough to view camera. Then I became an in-house teacher for the production company I worked for and would travel around and teach our recording standards class.....and it's actually FROM learning how to teach the class where I learned a lot about using proper video scopes. and, of course, as the years tick-on, just getting more experience ON every live-production using cameras. I constantly try to get people to understand WHY you need to be using professional monitors with scopes, ......and then, I really noticed a difference when using ATEM Mini products because the first versions of those are ALL HDMI models, so we always had to convert our production cameras and camcorders from SDI to HDMI.....but things would look different on monitor 1 vs monitor 2 when going through the ATEM (having matching monitors btw). So, more testing ensued and scopes proved what was going on. I do wish the "A/V" world would start using real equipment where needed. I get it, maybe the client doesn't know, but *I know, and I always want to do better. aaaaaanyway, cheers!!

[@61audio61]

Thank you so much, 🙌

[@MarcusHutsell]

You are welcome!

[@RedWolfMichigan]

Great info! Thanks for sharing! You should also be aware that input 1 on the atem mini is YUV only where the rest will accept RGB or YUV.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Good point! Yes, I was aware of that as well, but a great reminder.

[@johnsmodelrailway9448]

I was aware that input1 on the ATEM was different as I had seen the picture problem at 14:38 - but until this video, I hadn't realised that was related to colour space. Started in the professional AV industry in the UK in 1990... And still learning. Every day is a school day!! Thanks for posting

[@Bigbandfan99]

Wow! So detailed. Question, I'm having problem with color not matching with laptop to laser projector. the setup is laptop connected to the atem then to decimator to laser projector will that be an issue?

[@MarcusHutsell]

HI there. Thank you. So, your laptop>ATEM>Decimator>Projector setup is correct and very common and no, there's no issue with doing that.......I do it every week with live-event setups. If your Decimator is located NEAR the projector and using the HDMI output of the Decimator into the HDMI input of the projector, you might actually WANT to try setting the HDMI Output type of the Decimator back to RGG444. HDMI inputs may be expecting that "full range." Granted, that doesn't necessarily change COLOR per sé, just black/white levels, etc. If your projector has an SDI input, then you may just be going Decimator SDI Output > SDI Projector Input. In that case (or either case), if you're having color issues.....then I'd say your issues lie with the projector, and NOT the laptop/ATEM side. You'll have to dig into your projectors settings and check everything: Check what type of signal it's expecting, check color, change/alter your brightness/contrast, color settings WITH the projector settings........because your laptop is your reference point as long as your laptop's screen is a good one (If you're using Apple macbook pros, then those screens are pretty darn good as-is, so then try to get your projector to match your laptop screen as best as you can using the settings on the projector). There are thousands of projector models, and lots of settings inside those projectors......and some are just way worse "out of the box" than others. Long story short, the Decimator in this setup *shouldn't be causing you color-matching issues at the projector.

[@eric-janvandenbogaard9415]

Thank you very much ! you're explaining the problem quiet clear, but now.... i'm into converting (mostly) PAL VHS tapes to SDI with the BMD mini analog to SDI converter, and recording it with their Video Assist to ProRes422LT files, the source is a Panasonic DMR-ES35V and gives a stable video signal (DIGA feature) the video component YUV? (red,green,blue RCA) goes into that analog input of the BMD mini converter, how do i know if there's coming out legal or full range from the SDI output ? since this can not be set....

[@orihalcon8693]

Agree it is confusing. What I'd do in your situation is see if you can use a software waveform monitor/vectorscope and capture PAL color bars to then look at the chroma and luma color levels of the captured color bars and see if any levels appear to be clipped (in other words, extremely flat upper or lower parts of the waveform) like what is demoed in this video

[@geraldking9385]

Hey Marcus, why do we put the Blackmagic mini converter to the atem then back out the atem to put it into the ninja?

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there Gerald. If you're talking about the 3G Micro Converter, I talk about that at 4:36. I used the mini-converter for a couple of reasons: 1. Because I HAD to convert to HDMI for the ATEM Mini. It's the original ATEM Mini and only has HDMI Inputs/Outputs. The point of this video is to show HOW improper SDI-to-HDMI conversion can ruin your black/white levels, so I need to convert my original SDI signal from the panasonic CX350 into SOMETHING with HDMI, so I used the micro Converter and the ATEM Mini. 2. I also used the SDI Out/through of the mini converter to show (at the Shogun) that the 3G microconverter is NOT affecting the SDI signal, it just passes it through over to input 2 of the Shogun.....and I verify there is no change between input 1 and 2 of the shogun: Shogun input 1 = Directly from AJA SDI splitter. Shogun Input 2 = AJA SDI Split to 3G Microconverter SDI-Thru. The reason I really dug into this is because when the ATEM mini products came out, they were only HDMI. And during that time, most of the cameras that we used in live-streams had SDI-outputs and we typically used SDI in our standard signal routing.......but, the original ATEM mini was HDMI only......so everyone (including myself) grabbed a Decimator MD-HX and converted it by simply setting "HDMI Output = SDI Input," and we saw our image, and went on about our business. We did this a lot to ingest a camera into VMIX, Zoom, Teams, OBS, etc, for live streams and live-meetings (a lot during the pandemic) But I started to notice very quickly that the resultant image inside OBS/Vmix/Zoom and also using realtime 3D rendering software "Notch" that the blacks were just crushed, and gone.....couldn't recover them with color correction within any of those programs, and the whites were also blown out. I started blaming the ATEM because it was the only thing "different" (or new) in our signal flow. But, I started digging deeper and finally used scopes properly to identify WHERE the problem was occurring.....all the while learning more-and-more about full/legal levels, etc. And THAT'S when just scrolled over to "HDMI OUTPUT TYPE" in the Decimator MD-HX, and I saw "RGB," and I knew that a LOT of the time RGB Signals are in full range blacks/whites.......and I knew that most cameras/video switchers are YUV, which uses legal range blacks and white........so, I set up scopes before the Decimator, and then set up scopes AFTER the decimator with 2 monitors and changed the values and verified on my copes that both look the same and BAM! It was that improper RGB conversion because I needed to keep my video signal in the YUV/Legal colorspace/range. I hope that makes sense! Cheersa

[@MarcusHutsell]

Also, one more thing, I think I forgot to say it this way..........using the Blackmagic 3G micro Converter to convert to HDMI > ATEM......I wanted to show that the Blackmagic 3G Microconverter WAS NOT improperly converting the HDMI signal (Input 3 of the ATEM).....but the Decimator (MD-HX and MD-LX by default, convert to RGB/Full)....Input 4 of the ATEM. That's the other reason I used the Blackmagic 3G Microconverter in addition to all the other stuff. Does that makes sense??

[@geraldking9385]

@@MarcusHutsell ohhh that makes sense now, thanks! Your videos are really helping me learn more fully about signal flow. It was so confusing at first because of where to put the in and where to put the out

[@geraldking9385]

Also how would we get rid of the green spike u mentioned earlier?

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there… I’m hoping to do a video on that soon, I think dropping down to 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4 helps, i’m planning on doing some tests between the MD-HX and MDLX to see the green shift more closely with vectorscopes. Just going to have time to set it up, test, record, and edit!

[@geraldking9385]

@@MarcusHutsell Thank you, looking forward to it

[@primetymepro]

Hey, Marcus, excellent video explaining the color space. After a lot of years this makes it easier to understand. Thanks! Can you recommend a (free or affordable) scope that I can use for testing both at home and in the field. I use a custom rig that I put together and I'd like to be able to test using a single camera when I'm on a smaller project. Thank you in advance.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there. Thank you, and I'm very glad the video helped. Honestly, in all my years in professional live-event work (with most of my video-specific-experience in the last 9 years).......a LOT of people that do this work day-in and day-out STILL don't understand their own color spaces, levels, etc, and couldn't tell you even IF something was wrong with their image.....it took me a while with a lot of research and testing to not only NOTICE if I had issues, but then HOW to fix them and keep learning this stuff.....and I'm still learning every day...... Anyway, with that being said, for portable scopes, I'd get a small video monitor. I use the Atomos Shinobi, 5" monitor. However, the model I have has both HDMI and SDI inputs (they no longer make the 5" version of the shinobi with SDI input, it now only has HDMI inputs). But, I found that the past few years Atomos screens are overly green and warm and can make you THINK your white balance or color is wrong..........which is WHY we should use scopes, because the scopes read what's actually in the image, and the MONITOR (what we look at) comes AFTER those scopes. So, I've been steering away from Atomos a bit. Now, what I LIKE about atomos products are their large-waveform scopes that fill almost the entire screen. Some monitors only have small scopes. However, one of my favorite monitors that I own is my Lilliput HT7S, it's a 7" monitor, has lots of scopes and the SCREEN looks great and you can tune the color of the screen a bit, which, again, comes AFTER the scopes so you can "make" the screen look a bit more warm or cool if you want. But, that monitor is $340. FEELWORLD monitors are "ok" in my opinion. The main thing about most of the feelworld monitors is that IF they have waveforms, they usually are at the bottom of the screen instead of being able to make them full screen or larger. I like Large waveforms that cover the entire screen or most of it if possible so I can more easily read them. But they can get the job done. I wanted to try Portkeys brand, they do make a 5" monitor that's relatively affordable, the Portkeys PT5 II: amzn.to/3Pyk63n I haven't used the Portkeys, but it has waveforms (Luma waveforms which is best for exposure, I don't use RGB Waveforms very much). But the PT5 doesn't have SDI inputs. I need SDI and HDMI inputs on my monitors because we use MOSTLY SDI inputs/outputs and cabling in live-production. If you need both HDMI and SDI inputs in a small monitor, I'd check out the Lilliput FS5, great little monitor, tiny, a bit more expensive: amzn.to/3LzKngo I hope that helps!

[@primetymepro]

Hello again Marcus and thanks for taking the time on your Sunday to respond to me that is very much appreciated. As a matter of fact I recently purchased my 4th field monitor that has exactly what you describe in having a little PIP reference of a waveform. I'd love to know if there was some kind of software utility I could use maybe with a laptop, capture device and monitor. Something that I could make full-screen.

[@MarcusHutsell]

@primetymepro aaaaahhh, copy. you can use OBS(free streaming/recording software) to do this, but you have to install a scope plugin as OBS doesn’t come with built in scopes. I use Scope Dock within OBS, it does occasionally crash OBS when trying to move the dock around, but for free, it reads your signal and provides waveforms, vectorscopes, false color, pretty much anything you need to test a video signal on a computer. That’s the free option, other programs, like V-Mix, have built-in scopes, but of course, Vmix will cost money.

[@MarcusHutsell]

@primetymepro you can also obviously use any video editing app If you’re testing a pre-recorded video… Like Davinci resolve, has all the scopes you’ll ever need

[@primetymepro]

Aaaaahhhh! Bingo!!!!! I currently have installed 4 instances of vMix (2-Laptoos, and 2-Desktops). Since the pandemic, I have been thrust into using and learning both OBS and vMix for video streaming as part of my livelihood. Will definitely look into OBS, and without a doubt, vMix's also. Thanks for your wealth of knowledge. May I ask what part of the globe are you on? I'm located in Las Vegas, NV. I'd love to keep in touch with you, if that is okay.

[@ntchi]

That's an excellent video! I was banging my head because of this. Is this a bug on the microconverter 3g? Why changing in the settings 16-235 and 0-255 doesn't do anything?

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there. Thank you, yes, it took me a while to even think that the Decimator could be the issue.....scopes I tell ya, scopes!! Anyway, as far as the Blackmagic "not working" when changing the values, I'm not sure. Now I'm curious though as it might be that it only works if you feed a signal INTO it that is in full range (like sending Sony S-Log 3 from my Sony A7iv via HDMI to the Blackmagic Microconverter), then, maybe the BM selector would do something because it's receiving an SLOG (Full range) signal, and so we would need to tell the BM converter what to do with the full range signal. I'll have to test soon ;)

[@ntchi]

@@MarcusHutsell yes that's something to test. It's unfortunate these decimators are impossible to find these days.

[@user-yz4it1vc1k]

Hi first of all thank you very much for sharing. help me I don’t know. Can you please teach me how to set SDI 1080i59.94 to SDI1080p 59.94? Thank you very much.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there. So, you need to use the "Scaler" in the MD-HX. You'd set: SDI Output = Scaler Then go To scaler: Set the Scaler to 3G1080p59.94 Then go to DUC Source: Set to SDI - This tells the Decimator which input source to scale, you can only scale from the SDI input OR the HDMI input, you cannot scale from both inputs on a single device. I almost always plug a proper video monitor into the SDI output to read and verify the frame rate is converting properly. Almost any small video monitor like Atomos Ninja/Shinobi/Shogun, or any other small, proper video monitor will ALWAYS tell you the frame/refresh rate on the screen. Atomos has theirs in the top-left corner of the monitor screen.

[@thomasnoe2714]

I bought one specifically for use with teleprompter so that I could see a laptop screen image reversed on the teleprompter. I can't get it to work. zero color output, zero HDMI output. I'm not interested in the re-scaling as i'm doing HDMI In and HDMI out. Only interested in ability to flip the image. My telepropter shows an unreversed image when I take the decimator out of the chain. So I know the monitor and all cables work just fine. How do I get the HDMI output to actually work. If I don't get this working soon I'll be forced to return it as a defective device so any guidance would be appreciated.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there Thomas. So, you CAN absolutely do what you want (use the Decimator MD-HX to reverse your image for teleprompter), I do the same thing ALL the time. The thing is, you HAVE to use the scaler, because the "flip" function ONLY applies to video running through the scaler, so you cannot just set "hdmi output = hdmi input" and also use the flip horizontal/vertical feature. However, even though you HAVE To use the scaler to get the horizontal or vertical flip-functionality, you don't have to ACTUALLY scale or change the frame/refresh rate.......you would basically set the scaler to EXACTLY the same resolution & frame/refresh rate as what your laptop is sending (and therefore what the Decimator is receiving) on the HDMI input. You can see the resolution and frame rate on the home screen of the Decimator....... Home Screen > Input Status > H: (either "no signal" if nothing is plugged in to the HDMI input, or it will then show something like "1080p60" if that's what it's receiving from your laptop)......then you'd just set the scaler to exactly this......here are the settings: First things first, reset the Decimator to Defaults > Setup Menu > Load Defaults Then....... Control Menu: Control > HDMI Out Source = Scaler Control > DUC Source = HDMI In Scaling Menu: Scaling > Output Format = 2 options: Option 1: Set the scaler to the same resolution and frame rate (refresh rate) as what your laptop is sending......so, if the Decimator sees 1080p60 on the home screen, set the Scaler to 1080p60.....AKA, no change in resolution or frame/refresh rate, but now you get access to the flip-functions.....or Scaling > Option 2: If, for any reason, your monitor can't handle the resolution/refresh rate being sent by a device, then keep scrolling through resolutions and frame rates until the image shows up on your monitor. (remember to always pause/hold on a new scaler setting, as it takes the Decimator about 2-3 seconds to set the scaler output and for an image to show up on an external device). This is helpful when I'm using a camera that sends 23.98fps, but a computer monitor maybe can only handle 60Hz (60fps) (because a lot of computer monitors CANNOT handle 23.98 or 24 fps). Scaling > Horizontal Flip > (set to YES if neede) Scaling > Vertical Fip > (set to YES if needed). Should work like a charm! Let me know, there's nothing wrong with your Decimator, just gotta know the signal flow of how it works.

[@RDUBTutorial]

I see you have a seetec monitor in the built in road case…but no link to it in description. Which one is that?…I’m thinking of using some on set for folks who are not color scrutinizers but just need an acceptable ref image.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Hi there. That Seetec monitor is the ATEM156, it has 4 hdmi inputs and its own internal multi-viewer so you can see all 4 inputs on screen. Pretty good monitor, it’s not super bright, so I wouldn’t try to use it outside… but in office, studio environments it works great. I do we should have waveforms… But at least it has false color, which helps me see my exposure despite how “bright“ or dim the monitor is. In my opinion, false color is the absolute minimum of exposure tools needed on a production monitor. I do also wish this one had SDI inputs… But having SDI puts usually costs more and a simply converter gets the job done. Here’s an Amazon link if you want to use that. amzn.to/3xixqDm Happy Production-ing!

[@RDUBTutorial]

@@MarcusHutsell thanks… I am considering the 4x SDI input version so good to know your thoughts on the hdmi version. They are usually in a black tent so should be ok. Thanks

[@RDUBTutorial]

Hey Marcus - follow up on that monitor - how do you calibrate it…..eyeball or which probe etc? Many thanks

[@harrij.9542]

Here we mostly use BM microcoverters to convert SDI to Hdmi

[@MarcusHutsell]

Yep, I have and use mostly Blackmagic too. Mainly because they're (1) more available (seems like Decimator products area REALLY hard to find in-stock these days) and (2), the Blackmagic converters use USB-C, whereas the Decimator MD-LX still uses Micro-USB. But, Decimator products ALWAYS seem to fix any issues when converting where I still may have issues of signal-passage with some Blackmagic converters.......depending on the frame rate, other equipment in the signal chain, etc.

[@Marc_Wolfe]

I bet full range is the right way to do it with pro stuff.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Actually, no. Almost all video broadcast equipment, cameras, live video switchers, is based on Legal range video signals. Full range is for any devices that were designed to operate in full range. Almost NOTHING in the professional live-event production world is full-range. Some computer monitors can handle full range, some cannot, but many computer monitors are in the RGB color space which operates in full-range most of the time. It really is just a difference in how the min/max black/white/greyscale levels are encoded and if that next device is expecting legal or full-range. When recording LOG footage with cameras, LOG footage records in full-range and you CAN output a full-range signal from a camera depending on the camera and the settings......but for LIVE-production, you're NEVER sending that LOG/full range output to a video-switcher for in-room magnification. You might send the LOG format to an external recorder which CAN handle full-range, but when taking that footage into a video-switcher, it needs to be legal range, or editing that footage, we're almost always converting back to legal for sharing/internet/client-hand-off, etc. Here's a quick article: www.portrait.com/resource-center/video-content-ranges/

[@Marc_Wolfe]

I remember reading into that before, because it puzzled me why the decision would be made. Now I'm pretty sure it's like fractional frame rates where it's just done that way because that's the way it's always been. If I remember right, it was primarily do to blanking intervals on analog video signals, and making those signal more reliable with noise, instead of requiring absolutely 0 volts for blanking to register. As with many things in life "why change it".

[@MarcusHutsell]

I also just realized I mis-typed one thing in my previous reply… I’ve now edited my reply above…. what I meant to say, was any video signal going into a live production video switcher needs to be LEGAL range, not full.

[@Marc_Wolfe]

"I usually do 422, because I'm a jackass with more money than brains." All this pricey gear, and you choose a color compressed option... that's what 422 means.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Well, jack ass or not…. sometimes the next device in line can’t handle 4:4:4… If the next device can’t handle it, then you can’t use it or else your video signal chain won’t work.

[@Marc_Wolfe]

Then that next device isn't prograde and you're bottlenecking quality, no? (yes). Would make sense to not tollerate that, with that level of gear.

[@MarcusHutsell]

Yes, it would be a bottleneck if it can't handle 4:4:4....but, in live production, you don't always get top-notch gear. Sometimes budget, or the people pulling gear in the warehouse (or people purchasing it), don't know and don't care, they just throw "computer monitor" on the truck. You'd be surprised at how much consumer-gear gets used backstage in a lot of productions. I don't like it, but I'm also at the mercy of my market/city/budget at times.