Deck Doctor and Strategies of Milling In Commander

[@jensjenson1505]

Vastly underrated channel. Like the non-clickbait, down-to-earth, analytical way you do your videos. Keep the content coming!

[@edhdeckbuilding]

thank you, and i will.

[@88Eoghan]

@@edhdeckbuilding Agreed, great comment, this is why we watch the channel! Building a Phenax right now, I have a tendency to become unfocused, really helped to hear you stress the solely milling focus and forgetting about damage. Definitely bearing that in mind now as I make it!

[@heitortremor]

I think a deck doctor series would be a lot of fun. Another content creator Motumbo did a Decktember last year for December. People went on his discord and posted decks for him to play in Arena. He'd play a few rounds with it vanilla then a few more after his modifications. It was very fun!

[@xedet]

Letssss goooo,ride this train to 10k!

[@silastrafford7181]

Just subbed. Haven’t come across a desk tech this smart in awhile. Spoils of Evil is the secret star of your deck tech. What a good suggestion.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

thanks man. welcome to the channel.

[@btfricks]

Pact of Negation belongs in proactive competitive decks where you use it to protect your own wincon. (as in you will almost never pay the 5 mana, because you're only using it defensively as a last resort). Which means, it would only make sense in a Phenax deck with some sort of fast combo win. In the video, I think you are considering counterspells as reactive or a form of removal, which is not wrong, but also not the whole story.

[@punkypinko2965]

Avatar of Woe looks a great card 22:18. Thanks! Now I'm looking at adding it to my Abaddon deck.

[@ygaudreault]

For counterspell to be good you need to keep instant speed stuff, like draw, you need to have options for this open mana.

[@vidalpeterson1918]

I knew if I held onto my Phenax my questions would get answered! Nice deck!

[@ccm1255]

I know this was a year ago, but I just want to say this video was incredibly helpful. I've been looking to upgrade my budget Phenax deck into a higher powered deck and your deck list and explanation help me cut things and discover a different way to think about my creatures and artifacts. Thank you.

[@Parhelion2]

I like the modal double faced lands because if it’s early game it’s a land but if it’s later then it’s impactful. But I only use them if they are relevant to my strategy.

[@gaarvaag]

Bolas Citadel can make sense in Phenax simply because you can mill yourself if you hit a land, giving you another chance to hit something useful

[@CouchtrollPodcastDS]

Thank you for this video!!! A few great new cards for my deck plus a better understanding of mill in commander

[@FrogAtog]

Tree of perdition is also super good as it is a 0/13 and it could be bigger.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

yeah it's in there. another auto-include in a phenax deck.

[@WICKEDJungles]

Wouldn't you also swap the control of Phenax with "Reins of Power" (given you have the devotion), and therefore cannot use his ability on opponents creatures?

[@WICKEDJungles]

Oooff, furthermore - if the opponent does not have the devotion, Phenax would turn to an enchantment under opponents turn, and would not swap back?

[@dwpetrak]

Yeah, this video is from another person who doesn't play mill so he doesn't really get how it needs to be played. His advice that is good is what is good in most decks.

[@murphygoodman2277]

I got to sub to you. I just listened to this and it was really common sense and practical. Great content and super chill

[@soundquilt3915]

Dude I am loving the longer form for the videos.

[@light-chemistry]

Bit late to this video but it really is such a good deckbuilding video. I really like how focussed you are on executing your strategy. No nonsense - if a card isn't helping you *win* the way you are setting out to do, get rid of it. I think that's so important.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

thank you so much. one of my favorite videos i did as well.

[@garythacker6731]

Phenax seems very viable for self mill. I like the idea of milling a lot of fatties into the graveyard, using mass resurrection, then tapping all those creatures to mill an opponent out.

[@jcstaff1007]

I think is a great fun card to added to this deck. Very fun effect. Nice body.

[@hobez64]

31:40 Wouldn't you be giving your commander to your opponent in this instance? So the double milling wouldn't work?

[@Erimioa]

depents on the devotion. Sometimes it isn't a creature.

[@myth1757]

This really is a great channel. Wish this channel had a discord.

[@liberty2087]

19:50 I believe they call this the “sunk cost” fallacy; when you commit to or “buy into” something, it’s easier to justify it, I.e. using mana you’d otherwise lose on a counterspell. The best solution is probably to run mana sinks in counterspell decks so you have something to do with your open mana if you don’t want to counter anything

[@darylroetz9053]

Yes please I will love to send you my deck list to you. To get your thoughts on my thoughts

[@stuartjackson7834]

Cool insight 👍🏻👍🏻 Keep doing your stuff magic man!

[@cobalttornado9803]

I know this video is old but I think a cool card to add could be Uchuulon. Its great for exiling creatures, amassing blockers, and since they all have 4 toughness you could get some good phenax mill.

[@ImaginationHobbies]

I agree mesmeric orb is the best mill spell. I have it in my mimeoplasm deck

[@DrukenReaps]

We've clearly had different experiences with mill, lol. That is fine though. Every time I've played a mill deck (I generally play with the same peeps all the time) I instantly become the archenemy. Having those Syr Konrads and Bloodchief Ascensions so that I can kill everyone fast enough became very important. Some of my biggest finishers are things like Rise of the Dark Realms and my usual commander was The Mimeoplasm so I have exile in the command zone.

[@elsanto2401]

also gives you an alt wincon in case your opponent has an eldrazi or some other way to restore the library

[@Animalfoot]

I built phenax as sort of a defender tribal deck. It was neat.

[@rowankeltizar5961]

"If you are running Phenax, you don't need mill cards" THIS. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain this concept to new commander players. You want to enable your commanders ability, not necessarily run redundancy to it. For example, Prossh doesn't need Avenger of Zendikar. Niv-Mizzet doesn't need Psychosis Crawler. Counterspells work well if you have LOTS of other instant speed effects, especially instant speed draw. Leave mana open. If nothing relevant is cast, cast your other instants. Or run Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrey. Counterspells need to be built around if you are running a lot of them. I agree they shouldn't take up too many slots in any other non-control blue deck. And counters either need to protect your own board state or keep people from winning. That's it. "Counterspells don't work on things already on the board." This is absolutely true and why I also run lots of spot removal and wipes in addition to my control spells.

[@cice7076]

running redundant effects though is great for games where your commander is removed often; if your whole deck revolves around, for example titania's land sacking ability (i play titania, which is why im using it as an example) you want a lot of effects that of course enable that but also having redundant landfall or other abilities that trigger upon sacking a land give you backups in case titania isn't available.

[@PopcornBunni]

It depends on the commander in question. Kemba is the go-to Voltron commander but you can't always get her to stick, so having some redundant backup creatures to tron up is important. Phenax being an indestructible noncreature most of the time makes extra mill a bit unneeded though.

[@EPICSAGA007]

Love this tech. Way outside me and my playgroups price range, but definitely a base that I can take away some of the more pricey effects like tutors that make it more optimized. I feel like it's missing some untappers like pemmin's aura and freed from the real and thousand-year elixir that I feel really make creatures that get bigger every time they tap like consuming aberration hum. And also the inspired creatures too.

[@corrosivecabal]

I had Phenax deck, but my playgroup hated mill. So I turned it into a Grimgrin deck with Phenax as a hidden commander. The inspired creatures and intruder alarm/faces of the past work well with Grimgrin. And the zombie tokens work well with Phenax.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

stay tuned for my "most hated strategies" video

[@nickmiller3748]

I used a phenax deck in the past, but my playgroup was running a lot of removal to respond to my high toughness creatures. I ended up adding scarab god to take advantage of the milled creatures. It slowly drained them out and kept getting me 4/4 blockers

[@firelite906]

in a deck like this honestly a lot of counters is viable because having "huge blockers" but no way to protect them from removal and boardwipes doesn't make sense hence a sort of draw-go strategy, in conjuction with this pact of negation reads like 5 mana(on lay away) stop the most important spell in the game because your opponents just can't play around it. also for phenax the most important cards are haste enablers

[@MitsuSC]

Great insight, some very valuable points. I run a Anowon pure mill/aggro deck and this has given a few stuff to think about.

[@Habizbah]

Love this concept. Really cool on multiple levels.

[@eliwolf8987]

I def want to see more deck doctor

[@marvin5342]

Really awesome video loved all of the input. You really inspired me to build more unique decks.

[@angelfury8182]

Have you ever tried Altar of Dementia with Reins of Power? It's pretty hilarious.

[@garythacker6731]

I have a couple list that could be tuned. Is this something you would be interested in checking out?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i do my deck doctors on my patreon now.

[@garythacker6731]

@@edhdeckbuilding ok

[@Uma_and_friends]

8:58 fetchable infinite eith the scry card that goes to top of library 1 life per storm counter

[@Uma_and_friends]

With awtherflux or the black green card that regenerates and boardwipes for flavor with the salt

[@Habizbah]

Transforming a commander is a really powerful effect. Hits indestructible and the transformed creature needs to die before they can access it again. Rapid hybridization doesn't transform but it's hard to beat for blue spot removal

[@edhdeckbuilding]

hmm? not sure what you mean here by transform? do you mean turn it face down? like with ixidron?

[@Habizbah]

Ixidron, yes, but even better are effects like Kenrith's Transformation or Oko. There is another in white that makes it a 0/1 indestructible insect, which means it won't die from blocking or board wipes. Not that those colors come into play in this deck, just a notable interaction of cards with that effect.

[@gman963]

I liked Surgespanner, Grimoire Thief, Fallowsage in my Phenax deck. It's kind of a more controlling build. Wake Thrasher is good too; it ends up adding a lot of toughness during your turn for only 3 mana, especially with Intruder Alarm.

[@williamlingg2263]

So I'm curious if the original deck builder had an intruder alarm in the original deck. Being a former phenax player, a lot of their choices are cards I had in my build but the goal their was to fetch alarm asap and out advantage my opponents while milling. Also be careful with reigns of power since you could quite easily give away your commander. I mean it could be really strong andncouls save your butt but it could also hurt in the wrong situation.

[@gerritb2203]

Reins of power would donate Phenax too, depending on your devotion

[@TheAngrySquatch]

Nothing says you have to cast the counter spell in that rotation, a known counter spell works better because you're preventing 4-5 plays in fear of being counter vs just the 1 countered spell

[@ijpg-fd7qn]

this is actually wrong. people are holding back on playing their bombs because the cost of getting countered is higher than not playing it. you are letting your opponents choose which is most beneficial, which gives them value.

[@Hitmonchampion]

I hope to see more Deck Doctors videos soon, this seems like it'll be a real fun series. Quick thing about the Counterspell trap though, I've almost never seen anyone do that. Counter a spell just because no one else played a haymaker worth countering? Because they'll have...wasted a turn? That is such a terrible play. If nothing happened, you save that counterspell for when you DO need it. If you counter an Arcane Signet just because you'll feel like you wasted a turn otherwise, you're going to be hitting yourself in the head when someone else casts that Expropriate and you wasted your only counterspell. Honestly, if someone did that to me in a commander game, I don't see myself playing with them again. I don't think the problem with that is the "counterspell trap", the problem there seems to be poor threat assessment, something that's unfortunately quite common it seems.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

it is indeed a terrible play. and i've seen it a bunch. of course that person always pretends like they did it for a good reason. just like the first turn force of will your sol ring.

[@adamthebassist93]

Great channel. I appreciate your commander insight. I’m working on a Ruric thar stax deck with some Kiki jiki combos. Sounds interesting?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

sounds cedh. is it?

[@odisseas2570]

Is that a xmage screenshot when talking about mana curves? :)

[@edhdeckbuilding]

indeed. i like it for deckbuidling, then the decklist is transferable to other platforms.

[@9-b_b-9]

@@edhdeckbuilding haha noticed that too! It is excellent for making decks my preferred way of brewing and testing.

[@_NoiNoi_]

Great deck analysis, but you forgot shuffle titan removals like bitter ordeal.

[@Farycane]

I Player frogify and the other versions like lignify, darksteel mutation a lot. They are awesome and one of the few ways to get rid of commanders

[@punkypinko2965]

31:40 You said you could mill again because all creatures become untapped. But wouldn't your opponent have already gained control of your commander? How would you mill again?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

well hopefully your commander isn't a creature

[@DarthSithis2187]

Reins of Power wouldn't be able to mill if Phenax is a creature at time of casting though right. Wouldn't you just end up relinquishing that ability to your opponent who could in turn mill you in response because the creatures have haste.

[@danielwilson7227]

Hey, can you do one for nekusar? So many standard set ups with wheels etc, but any secret tech you can think of?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

well sigil of sleep is definitely an auto-include there.

[@reccaman]

Would Scarb God be too much? I have it in my Yuriko deck becuase of the value it gives and a late game finisher, but I would imagine it's best with a mill deck?

[@milltary64vs5]

For Yuriko finisher i really LOVE the horsemanship legendary. Just making my ninjas unblockable. Getting multiply triggers

[@averyfeemster320]

A great card for mill is crypt incursion, you can gain a ton of life

[@anthonystark5088]

Very surprised that it's not in the deck, it clearly is an auto include. Maybe he chose not to, because once you get 30+ life with it, and ruin an opponent's day, you instantly become archenemy.

[@psyoniclizard1256]

Crumbling sanctuary is interesting. It might not work because you wouldn't attack, but the damage you opponents are doing is working towards your goal instead.

[@ammonaustin9081]

That concept is great for Mindcrank but not CS cause CS is symmetrical and your opponents will want to punish you for playing it. People in my playgroup were initially very emotional about mill which drew lots of hate.

[@l.p.1641]

How does intruder alarm sound here? He’s playing a fair amount of creatures himself and will be able to get double, even triple usage sometimes in a rotation of each creature when his opponents play creatures. Also doesn’t matter if his opponents can block all the time if he’s never attacking

[@edhdeckbuilding]

that definitely could work. just gotta be careful with that card. your opponents can really take advantage of it.

[@TheSPARTANusm]

I see what you’re saying about the counter spell thing..but it’s funny to watch the other players in my pod notice I have all my blue lands untapped and sweat over whether or not they should play that big cmc spell at the risk of it not resolving. It’s a mind fuck game that I love to play...and to see be played.

[@Veon97]

I’m building a full Dimir control/flashback list with Dralnu, would be interesting to see how you’d take thay

[@mixlepwned]

I love this deck. I kinda want to make it now

[@abentevent]

This is great! My favorite of your videos this far. How do I submit a deck?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

submit a deck for the deck doctor you mean?

[@abentevent]

Patreon. Should have finished the video.. Ill be signing up!

[@edhdeckbuilding]

cool. see you there.

[@kal54321]

Curse of the Swine is amazing with Crafty Cutpurse.

[@unimaginative_artist]

Forgot to add basalt monolith and mesmeric orb then just oracle to a win 😂🤣 Its a lil higher power but mill needs it, or if u have Physic Spiral in leu of oracle mill all your cards then mill some one else out you 100% become a target! I also run a kind of lantern side synergy works amazingly few more are sword of body and mind love it, mind grind omfg this card has won me so many games and forced fruition are some adds that I can think of!!!! Mill is Funaf

[@andrewfuhrman7806]

Reigns of power won’t work if phenax is a creature because you won’t be able to kill with your swapped creatures

[@edhdeckbuilding]

correct. but i don't think that's likely to happen.

[@robertmendez8383]

Brudiclad, Maddening Cacophony, Wright of Precinct Six, Bone Hoard, and Nighthowler. 🙏

[@MusicMcMania]

And I was just thinking about making a deck with this guy

[@bradleyvenovich6160]

To "the counterspell trap" if a player views leaving mana open for a round of the table and not having to counter something as a waste of a turn. They are a bad player who misunderstands what counterspells are. They are removal. Just like go for the throat or doom blade. Their conditions and timing are all thats different. Not needing to use your removal now means you have it for later.

[@drongobrat6471]

what do you think about removal spells like expel from orazca and submerge for a mill deck? They're kind of conditional, but when online, they're really good.

[@robertmendez8383]

Been playing mill since I started playing gotta say this is the best list yet 🏅

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

Guiltfeeder is alt win won since it can be rarely be blocked if you have at least 40 cards in there grave they are dead. Bloodchief ascension is also very good. You cant always mill people out with the shuffle effects going on.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i like the deck to stay focused. no attacking, no damage.

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

@@edhdeckbuilding Ah. Must of mist that but it doesnt do damage its lose of life so maybe it still counts? Good deck tech regardless

[@notgood38]

Why have I never seen Reins of Power before? That's crazy powerful in a deck like this but also it just a total upset for people who think they are going off

[@TheTwistedSense]

I built the mill version of this deck but overlooked that its 101 cards. D: I don’t know what to remove.

[@justacorpse1022]

Doesn't taped creature mill for phenax toughness?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

that creatures toughness. whichever creature is being tapped.

[@unimaginative_artist]

Idk this seems to be the issue with mill I have a Damia Sage of Stone Mill deck that wins a lot I can also swap the commander to Sidici and go more competitive but you are right mill has 0 attackers

[@Filip-uo2sq]

I see you have Mortivore-type cards AND Leyline of the Void. Is it risk you are willing to take (I would expect them to run into each other in about 1/10 games)? Or do you not really care about it and will figure it out on the spot? Just curious, because your videos strike me as highly focused and optimized, so I wouldn't expect any nonbos at all.

[@DREADEDuuubGAMING]

I definitely don’t disagree with putting redundant ways of milling in a focused deck. If we are gonna be the target I’d like to have a lot of different cards that mill out in the deck so that way if we get caught with our pants down we can still play with the deck

[@Gabahulk]

Does Magewright's stone work with Phenax? I think it would be very good if it did.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

it does.

[@kingcherubix7064]

Wouldnt consuming aberration be insane it could become a 25/25 for example mill people for 25 and whenever you cast something they mill until they hit a land that would be insane

[@edhdeckbuilding]

yep it's in there.

[@stayathomedad4830]

I need help with my sidisi brood tyrant deck

[@edhdeckbuilding]

so i might ask for decklists, if i do another deck doctor video. if i decide to do that, i'll pin a comment to this video.

[@ImaginationHobbies]

Feel free to do this with my deck techs on youtube.

[@draculwalker1892]

Awesome !!

[@robertmendez8383]

Mill ftw 🙏

[@moxavenger]

You have to have a certain mindset to be a counterspell player. I personally can't play them because I want to always be aggressive.

[@daniilzadorozhnyy8950]

Deck Doctor!

[@Smaul002]

I like these deck building videos. I find it irksome that this player in question has a good number of ridiculously expensive cards but doesn't seem to have an understanding of deck building.

[@cakeprime6438]

that is the case with alot of magic players.

[@ammonaustin9081]

@@cakeprime6438 Not gonna lie, I have a friend who probably has the most expensive collection out of our playgroup (and all of us have decks in the 2k+ range) & he is 1 of the worst players in our group lol. Like obviously we love the guy as a person but some of the gametime decisions he makes really irk us + he plays decks that are arguably cEDH tier but we allow it cause we know he isnt a great player. Plus he has a habit of adding good stuff cards for the sake of them being good but there's 0 synergy

[@Uma_and_friends]

27/10 content bause

[@thiagosodre5280]

You need intruder alarm in here

[@PopcornBunni]

Cryptic Command is insane in commander what do you mean *plays archaeomancer combos in every blue deck And Charix doesn't have ward. Ward counters spells and abilities that target the creature unless they pay a cost. Charix modifies the cost to target it in the first place. Uncounterable effects get around ward but not Charix, and conversely, a cost reduction of say 4 from effects you have makes a 2B spell cost B on Charix but would still cost 2B on a ward creature. Okay technically it would cost B still and then get countered unless they pay the 2.

[@Veznikcpg]

Great deck tech, Phenax decks need a way to deal with the old shuffle Eldrazis you already have leyline but maybe Sadistic Sacrament too would be good.

[@ScottysSide]

You use XMaaaaaaage. :)

[@odytoboman]

Note on Reins of Power - You'd be handing Phenax to your opponent (if your devotion is too high) along with all your untapped, big-butt, creatures. Prepare to feel your own mill strategy. I disagree greatly with this card in this deck.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

i guess i just assumed the person wouldn't be stupid enough to cast it if their commander was a creature.

[@ImaginationHobbies]

Playing 4 tapped lands ain't bad

[@moritzbierdimpfl7233]

dont agree on what u said about pact of negation. yeah it costs you 5 mana but you cast it for 0 avoiding the whole i have to leaf mana open scenario u where talking about. i see it as a combo breaker that just sits in my hand and i only play to prevent me from losing on the spot. id argue its even better than fierce guardianship because it needs no setup and hits evrything

[@andrewsigrist9981]

Im not a huge fan of mesmeric orb in commander because it servers as a constant reminder to every player at the beginning of their turn that you're hurting them. The political cost is not worth the benefit for me. It's the same reason I dont like sulfuric vortex. If it triggered at EOT it would be a different story

[@moedark4390]

never a fan of Milling, i dont get the appeal ,not as bad as a discard deck though.

[@bigthrob7004]

I've got a deck I'd love for you to look at, is patreon the best way to go about that?

[@bigthrob7004]

Nevermind video answered it for me! Be seeing you on patreon

[@edhdeckbuilding]

cool