Deep Dive On Hunting Cartridges Full Interview With Joseph von Benedikt - Season 2: Episode 48

Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In this episode, I discuss modern cartridges for hunting with Joseph von Benedikt.
Links:
Website: ronspomeroutdo...
Facebook: / ronspomeroutdoors
Instagram: / ronspomer
Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media...
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.

[@macrocha5251]

The person I work for always say, “you can teach anyone to shoot to 500yards within 1/2 hour but, will take a lot of practice and learning to shoot past it. I LOVE how you guys make sure we listener’s understand the importance of projectiles selection depending of the application type you going to do. Thank you very very much for the great videocast and amazing work you guys do, very much appreciated!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Our pleasure Mac.

[@jfess1911]

I think it would be more accurate to say "AS LONG AS SOMEONE ELSE HAS MADE WIND AND RANGE ADJUSTMENTS, , you can teach anyone to shoot to 500yards within 1/2 hour". It is the first shot that is important and the wind call on a 500yard shot is not easy. One of the reasons that many older magnum cartridges still had relatively light bullets was to get max velocity to reduce the effect of bad wind and range estimations at 300 - 400 yards, distances generally considered "long" for hunting at the time.

[@terrymeaden3695]

I’ve watched the channel “Long range shooters of Utah” Almost no one has ever hit the 1000 yard milk jug with the first shot. Keep in mind these are long range rifles, not hunting rifles that they are using. Also it’s an exact known distance and elevation before they get to location. My opinion is if you have to walk your shot to the vitals of a game animal, based on your misses you should never have taken the first shot!

[@alexllc2958]

The best Rifle & Cartridge is the ones you master !

[@Master_Yoda1990]

Depends on the purpose, like they said 6.5 creedmor isn't gonna be a long distance killer, but it's good for long distance competition due to the power. If you're hunting deer you can do well with .243 win, but that wouldn't be adequate for bear or moose.

[@aaronlakanen4041]

I really like when you two are together. The unique perspectives and experiences go quite well together. I read Chuck Hawks statement on the fact that most of the gaps in cartridges were all covered by around 1965. It still is a struggle sometimes to choose a new cartridge as a budget and time will permit to only have some many when you may want to get all of them! Keep up the great work! Cheers from Ohio.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thank you Aaron.

[@bustersmith5569]

This was a good one !!!! TY Ron !!

[@headcarter4656]

Ole Randy Shelby might disagree with yall on a lot of this. However I agree! My favorite deer cartridge that I have went back to since my neck is jacked up is the 22-250.

[@davidmackee8575]

A great debate but got to say I agree with you Ron be ethical in your shots great video very interesting and Joseph knows his ballistics more like this please...

[@nmelkhunter1]

Fun video. But I’m still effective with my 7MM Rem Mag at 440 yards with 160 Accubonds and Partitions leaving the barrel at 3005. I do have to wonder how hot Joseph got wearing a Stormy Kromer the whole time? 🤠

[@gregorywalker4997]

absolutely excellent, especially younger shooters who really have a lot of hunting ahead of them...

[@MrBarramundi]

I have a discontinued one for Joseph. The 303/25 wildcat created in Canada and still used there and here in Australia. Ballistically in between the 250 savage and the venerable 257 Roberts, I have taken everything from wild scrub bulls weighing in excess of 1500 lbs to rabbits.

[@rodneybumgarner5514]

I still have and love my 7mm rem mag, but I have started shooting a 28 nosler and the 6.5 prc they especially the 28 hit so hard. You can't shoot anything with it and not smile . Good job

[@stevenbodart7492]

Really good topic. There are a bunch of people I run into who need to watch this and learn something.

[@FantomWireBrian]

If not having to go much higher than a 150 grain bullet ,the .270W has the broadest cross between so many cartridges it has to be a .270 rifle in the gun case.

[@FantomWireBrian]

The 130 grain boat tail in the.270 is like a match made in heaven,and not much of anything is better on paper or in the field 😎

[@blackshirtsrule4ever]

Thanks for another great podcast! Really enjoyed the discussion between you both!

[@jfess1911]

Thanks for explaining why the throat design of modern cartridges is an important advantage. This is what makes them more "inherently accurate". Many old designs essentially use a funnel design that allows the bullet to wiggle around more as it engages the rifling. The "modern" design lines the bullet up with a close-tolerance tube. This is really not a recent development since the Weatherby Magnums have used this design since the 1940's. Some of the Weatherby Magnum cartridges even have a tighter-than-normal spec for bullet and bore diameter.

[@chasrmartel4777]

6.5 PRC has approximately 62 inches of drift at 1000 yards with 10mph winds. If you misread that by 40% and the average wind speed is 14 mph at the shot, you are off by 24 inches. It is not ethical to shoot game at that range. That could easily turn into a badly gut shot elk.

[@turtledunkknucklebaby8089]

By that logic it’s not “ethical” to kill anything with a traditional bow. There’s no sights. You might miss. Some people shoot a thousand yards from a cold bore; more accurately than the average Joe at 100 yards on a bench rest. Some people shoot a traditional bow better than the average person with a crossbow. Let them do what they do and keep pushing what’s possible.

[@chasrmartel4777]

No they don't and it is unethical. Your "I'm such a good shot the laws of physics doesn't apply" is both stupid and indicative of an inability to reason objectively. @@turtledunkknucklebaby8089

[@gk5891]

For me 600 yd isn't ethical. For me a running deer at 25 yards with a shotgun is ethical. Others disagree on both. Ethics is a personal code of behavior. You only have yourself to answer to.

[@nozrep]

yah but it’d be ethical for a proper trained military sniper of course of which the majority of us hunters are not such like trained. Anyway i just wanted to say a yah but

[@chasrmartel4777]

@@nozrep It's not ethical for anyone. Physics doesn't care where you learned to shoot.

[@von3550]

A wealth of information. Thanks!

[@trevorkolmatycki4042]

In terms of ethical range… If you factor in probability of recovery… even if the animal expires… But you can’t even find the blood trail… It’s going to be extremely rare to ever exceed 500m… honestly… Ron refers to 400yds as a practical range limit… very practical indeed. Honestly… I consider any range beyond your MPBR… or beyond top edge hold… to be “Long” range. A 400yd shot on game is a very long range shot. These days with all the amazing gear and technology available… hitting 12” steel plates at 400m is pretty easy… But… successfully harvesting an animal at 400m with a low probability of failing to recover the animal… is much more challenging indeed. Dropping the bullet into the vital zone is but one among many other factors that have to all go right… to get that meat into the freezer.

[@wbwarren57]

Nice interview! You are a good interviewer. Thank you.

[@jasonweishaupt1828]

Most cartridges after about 1980 have been solutions looking for problems. Key word “most”.

[@aarons307]

I like Joseph's thinking on using a sledgehammer, elk & moose. A 300 win or 338 win get to ride in my scabbard usually. But....a good bonded 140 or 150 out of a .270 win 4" behind the shoulder on a big bull just deflates them big lungs. They're really not that tough unless you try to shoot through the thick stuff and get that big adrenaline flowing. Shoot them through the ribs, stay off the shoulder.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

My experience with moose suggests you're spot on, Aaron. A small bullet through the lungs and don't let them know you're around. As best I can recall, none of the bull moose I've shot knew they were being pursued. Based on their reaction to the shots, they didn't know they had been hit, either.

[@aarons307]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Agreed. I called in a big Shiras bull into close rifle range for my mom one year when she was the lucky tag holder. Her 270 barked when he turned broadside and he stood there like a mosquito had just bit him. The 150 partition was centered on shoulder and never entered the rib cage...too much mass. I hissed behind the shoulder...the next one through the ribs had steam boiling out both sides in the cool frosty 15 degree Wyoming morning and he took 2 steps and fell over. I just don't understand why there's this attitude that you have to take out the shoulders, African game yes, our N. American game, those lungs are a big unprotected target.

[@gregwhite6334]

I have a 6.5×55 sheepish wonderful round, easy on the shoulder.

[@chrisdaniel1339]

My favorite cartridge too.

[@AlexCausey]

In the 1960s, my father shot a deer in Colorado standing in a clearing surrounded by sagebrush on a mountain side about 500-700 yards away. Back in those days, we did not have these little Ranger 4x4 vehicles, only a 1957 Chevy Apache pickup at the bottom of the hill. So my father had an old surplus Army tent in the truck bed we used as a drop cloth for painting. We proceed up the side of the mountain on foot to the kill site. When we arrived, we placed the deer on the tent spread out, sliding it over and on sagebrush, slowly pulling it down back to the pickup. The old tent worked perfect to move the Animal, but stepping in between the thick sagebrush and almost falling several times proved to be a chore. I'm not a fan of long range kills and all the trouble it takes to get'em back to haul them away. I hope you enjoy the faster twist rate.

[@joshh5853]

It’s awesome to see you two debate both sides of this spectrum. I have split the difference this season and stepped up to the terminal ascent bullets in my faithful 270. Why not select a bullet that gives you the advantage JVB is after and still shoot a classic??

[@elkhuntr2816]

What are the downsides of higher BC bullets and higher twist rates? Lower mechanical accuracy, right? When not factoring environmental factors and shooting groups at shorter ranges, I find the high BC bullets produce larger group sizes than say a 140 gr nosler partition with a flat base (no boat tail) in my 7mm rem mag. And from what I understand, higher twist rates will hurt accuracy if the bullet isn't perfectly concentric. Is that right? That you actually want the slowest twist possible to stabilize any given bullet to maximize precision?

[@stephenland9361]

Just looking at centerfire rifle cartridges, you can quite easily hunt any game anywhere on the planet using nothing but cartridges that are over 90-95 years old. (I didn't go with 100 years old because I wanted to include the .300H&H which appeared in 1925, almost 100 years ago.) This leaves you with the venerable .30-06, the .30-30 Win, the 375 H&H, the awesome 7x57 Mauser, the 45-70 and a host of others including most of the 'Big Boys' for African dangerous game such as the .470 NE and even the .600 NE. From very modest .22 centerfires up to the Big Boomers, vintage cartridges get the job done.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

True, Stephen. And it's equally true that we can hunt anything on the planet with muzzleloaders as well as bows and arrows. Hunting is hunting. The various tools we used to take our game merely make it easier or more challenging. Spears, anyone?

[@miketyke9451]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Javelina are named for the type of spear the Spanish hunted them with. It is a thrusting spear as opposed to a throwing spear. Check out competitive atlatil spear throwing.

[@stephenland9361]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast A centerfire rifle cartridge is a rather simple thing. Brass case, primer, powder and bullet. While there have been significant improvements in bullets and powders over the past decade or so, primers are pretty generic and brass cases don't do anything today that they didn't do 100 years ago. While I don't have anything against the latest and greatest cartridges, I also see them as only marginally better than what was available fifty years ago, particularly for hunting. When taking a shot at a moose that's 200 yards away, does it matter if I'm shooting a .300 PRC as opposed to a .300 Win Mag? Or a .28 Nosler vs. a 7mm Rem Mag? Do the latest and greatest monolithic, high BC bullets kill any better than a Nosler partition? Not at 200 yards they don't. And as for powders, my go to powder for my .300 Win Mag is IMR 4831. The stuff was used to load 20 mm Oerlikon cannon cartridges in WWII so it's at least 80 years old. My pet load gives me excellent velocity, accuracy and shot to shot consistency. I might get a few more fps with a newer powder but who cares? I'm already getting 3160 fps with a 180 gr. bullet.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

@@stephenland9361 So true, Stephen. Each of us approaches guns and ammo from our personal perspectives. Some are happy with 130 year old cartridges and 70-year old bullet designs. Others must have the latest tweak. The good news is we not only have many options, but are still free to choose them.

[@bluntbone]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors Yup

[@richardforrest5781]

I enjoyed the discussion. Was this directed at just mid-west hunters? All of my shots on deer in New England woods have been under 50 yards, majority under 30. These high-speed bullets will destroy alot of meat. Anything over 2700 ft. Is too much. If you're hunting for antlers, ok. If you're harvesting for the table, much overkill

[@chrisdaniel1339]

If I could only have one rifle it would be the 6.5x55 Swede. High BC bullets for low drift and less drop, carries more energy down range, velocity is 2500-2700 fps depending on bullet wt, very mild recoil, and inherent accuracy. The Swede does many things so well. I am originally from NH and hunted with shotgun, muzzleloader, and rifle and you are absolutely correct about short shots in the NE deer woods. I had 308 rifle that spent most of its time at the range not in the woods, but if I knew I was going to hunt a large corn field I would probably take the rifle or muzzleloader.

[@eviseratorkyle]

Tbh I was hoping ron would have talked more. I think the biggest argument against new cartridges is availability and that some of them may go the way of the dodo. I think another argument is in most cases you can step up in cartridge size with high bc bullets and get close to the performance.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Ammo price and rifle selection are important too. They're just not there with new cartridges. For what you save on these new fancy cartridges and rifles you can shoot (practice) an awful lot in 308 and get pretty good at it.

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

I love my old tikka m695 300 win mag l9ng magazine from the factory, saami coal is 3.35" but i can fit a coal of 3.5" in my magazine but fir extreme range hunting i use 338 lapua magnum that packs over 1500 ft lbs at 1500 yards

[@mr.mr.3301]

Now there is the 7 prc coming out.

[@hinkle0856]

I’m really surprised the 300 Norma mag isn’t brought up more. I think the best big .30 for high BC bullets.

[@brysonfitzgerald5238]

Thanks Ron!

[@ed5042]

I am sure you have addressed this point in other videos, still searching, the most 'efficient' cartridges and what centerfire cartridges offer the longest barrel life/accuracy for the shooter.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Idk, a good barrel can take 6000 shots, some up to 10000 without loosing accuracy. So how much do you shoot? 100 for practice and 10 hunting throughout the year? That's some 60 to 100 years of hunting. Here where I am in Europe it's normal to have your granddad gun and still use it. Many guys buy one rifle and keep that their whole hunting life. So guys buy a really nice quality Blaser and just use that. Idk how good/bad Walmart rifles for 400 bucks are, we don't have them here...

[@ed5042]

@@mysterioanonymous3206 I should not have included barrel life, irrelevant. I have been using the 6.5x55 since 87 and am very pleased with the efficiency/ volume of powder to achieve reasonable velocity resulting in less recoil and reasonable down range results.

[@ed5042]

@@mysterioanonymous3206 I found myself gravitating to the 250-3000 savage also. I am still using a 1921 Savage 99 featherweight takedown. NOT DRILLED AND tapped for scope! Marbles flip up peep sight!

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

@@ed5042 yeap... American calibers are often loaded hot (so they get more barrel wear), whereas classic European calibers not so much. So they may have less "performance", but they seem to be a lot more "efficient" than all the high powered rounds/ magnums and whatnot. So I agree with you here... 6.5x55 is nice, I'd use that but unfortunately we have a 7mm minimum where I am, so 7mm (or up) it is.

[@DanielBoone337]

My problem is I like to tinker and I'm addicted to guns so when a new cartridge comes out I get to scratch 2 itches at the same time... LOL If I really like the cartridge I keep the gun/guns I have chambered in it and if I don't I sale them and move on to the next one. That said I have guns I bought or was given as a present early in life and guns I inherited that were loved by family members that never leave the collection and I like to dig them out the safe to hunt with later in the season just because it gives me that nostalgic feeling even if I'm not the biggest fan of the cartridge they're chambered in. So at the end of the day they all have a place...

[@bluntbone]

Haha I have too many guns for the same reasons.

[@toldroyd1]

I like to read about all the new Cartridges and how they eclipse the performance of other cartridges. I had used my Father's 30-40 Krag for my first deer, and my brothers.223 for the second one and managed to take mule deer with one shot each. The deer in both cases only moved 20 yards from where they were shot. My wife, bless her, bought me my first Deer rifle a Remington 700 BDL back in 1969 and I have used it for almost all of my hunting as it outshoots all my other guns, save my .223 (Sako Vixen). I remember reading about the .264 winchester when it first came out and how it was better than the .270 because it had all the case capacity of the .300 Mag with that little .264 bullet. At the time, I thought, "how can a 264 be better than a 270 ? Isn' the 270 bigger? (when your 11, it is easy to miss the decimal point) I was convinced that the 264 was the most powerful gun ever and I'm sure that a lot of others did too, but then it earned a Rep as a "Barrel burner"" and it suddenly slipped into Limbo. So now i wonder, why isn't the 6.5 PRC also a "Barrel burner"? It has about the same case capacity and the same diameter bullet. Down the road we'll have to see. When a Deer meets its maker does whether it is shot with a .243, .264, .270, 280, .308 or .320 inch diameter make any difference? I am convinced that the real reason for all these caliber bullets and cartridges only exist for marketing reasons, not because there is that much difference. My uncle swore by his 8MM Mauser that he brought home from an argument called WW2, and it certainly served him well. My Dad shot several mule deer and one Elk with his 30-40 Krag and I have friends with all of the above cartridges. I like the .270 because there are not many others that shoot flatter at 400 yards and then less than an inch difference (.264 Win Mag) it pretty much matches my brothers 7MM Mag but much easier on the shoulder.

[@timkraft4583]

Wouldnt it be great if hunters would take as much pride in stalking game and the close in hunt as they do on the long distance shots. We should never sacrifice clean kill shots to test the limits of our gear.

[@tsechejak7598]

Long heavy bullets and faster twist barrel because of sectional density. Sectional density over high BC, small dia bullets punching deep, always heavy for cal for me

[@rgthomson1]

6.5 Creedmoor accurate as you say but watching it on Red Deer stags in the UK i would not shoot one over 200 yards, with it, it does not hit hard enough

[@maineoutdoorsman677]

270 win ,shot a lot deer 336 yards ,no problem 6 inches low .an I put it right in there wheel house

[@christopheredenton5676]

What is wrong with shooting a game animal at 100 yds or less not just with a lever gun but even a 6.5 Creedmoor. I believe in hunting and fooling game, rather than shooting. Now Sheep and Goats, Pronghorn are usually longer range. I have however come within 10-15 yds from Pronghorn more than once.

[@bryanfox2735]

You want a javelin instead of a football is how I put it!

[@donaldrussell4218]

I can do what I need to do with the old bullets.

[@lisaannaallen6283]

300 ultra mag can use that bullet they have at least .5"free bore so seating it long does not help.

[@squatch0198]

Ron calls himself a fudd but Joe has the hat. ;-)

[@jamiehurtt3530]

210 grain ABLRin 06 is stable Requires only a 1 in 10 twist rate. At 2600 fps mv has 1750 ft lbs of energy at 600 yds! At 3000 ft typical hunting elevation and is still traveling at nearly 2000 fps Is The holy grail for longer shots with the old 30-06

[@hrdrockfarm8948]

Lots of good info.

[@REDNECKROOTS]

I've come to the conclusion that it's not that the old school cartridges are unable to work well. It's just that these new ones are available to the common user from the factory. No custom gunsmith work needed. We get outa the box match chambers n ammo with the PRC and creedmore

[@tracymccreary7441]

My concern is, are these high bc bullets constructed as well as a nosler partition? I'm guessing these high bc bullets are not good hunting bullets, I'm sure they are great for targets, but probably not the correct construction for 600 yd shots at deer, elk, etc.

[@brandoncarey2329]

Old fuddy duddies. Anything 300 WBY. New shooters 6.5-300 WBY! Still Authentic to a point but the .300 is really close behind at 1000 yards with 150Gr. 1944 or 45. Classic but effective

[@stephenkennedy3145]

I have hunted all my life,I am not all that educated on the science of the new bullets,but what I believe is.you need to be able to hit a plate size target to kill your game I also believe that 90 percent of hunters under hunting condition are not able to hit a plate at 300 yards. Some of this new high range bullets are not the best hunting bullets

[@sonsofthunder1481]

Poor Ron cant get a word in edgewise!

[@kellysatterfield5384]

I may have missed this comment in the video. What is the ideal elk and below caliber with manageable recoil that you would recommend for

[@ronspomer4366]

Kelly, that depends on your definition of manageable recoil. 6.8 Western or virtually any 7mm or 308 Win. I'd roll with the 7mm RM or new PRC

[@kellysatterfield5384]

@@ronspomer4366 thank you! I understand manageable is all relative the shooter. I should have been more definitive. I'll look a little more closely at the ballistics on the 6.8 Western and 308. Thank you for responding and good hunting!!!!!!!

[@trx20shooterlikky86]

Why not just put a fast twist barrel on older cartridges? Normally most older cartridges will dang near outperform most new cartridges. I recently purchased a 280 AI, I had originally looked at a 6.5 PRC but ammo, bullets, and brass were no where to be found. So I picked an older cartridge that you can actually get components to reload. I understand companies need to sell new products but why not improve what we have.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

That can work, Likky, but you'll need to throat the leade long enough to accommodate the longest ogive bullets you hope to shoot. You might also have to lengthen the rifle's magazine box to fit the cartridge OAL

[@rickjames2618]

That’s what was necessary before the advent of these newer cartridges. They were and are a hand loading proposition if you want higher BC bullets than a standard twist can stabilize. Major ammo manufacturers aren’t going to offer factory loads that won’t work in all factory chambers and barrel twists.

[@MrJtin69]

28 nosler for everything 800 and in and 30-378 weatherby for everything beyond

[@jerrymartin5100]

All this is a mute point, Roy Weatherby had the answer in 1944, it is and still is probably the king of all cartridges, 300 Weatherby Magnum, 200 gr Partition at 3000fps.

[@bluntbone]

Pretty hard to find something that wont kill.

[@stanleyspurgeon5339]

I’m going to tell you something,I love the 30.06 it’s killed everything in the world, but the 300 Weatherby outperforms most any Cartridge to date. Change my mind.??????

[@kenperkins7269]

Then there barrel life to consider for us common folk who can't afford a new rifle every few years if a person shoots a lot to maintain skill at distance.

[@jimpalmer4916]

I like the 308 myself for anything at 300 yds and under myself if I am not in grizzly country. My 300 win. is sighted in at 300 and my maximum distance is 500 meters from that gun which is as far as I will ever shoot at any game animal.

[@sergiolazzaro7970]

yo puedo hacer lo mismo con mi 270

[@jimpalmer4916]

@@sergiolazzaro7970 yo tambien!!

[@OURICO45]

Ron what about the new 7mm PRC?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Remains to be seen, but from the SAAMI drawings, it appears to be a 300 PRC case shortened and designed to push extra long, high B.C..284" bullets as heavy as 180 grains through fast twist barrels. Instrumental Velocity via SAAMI 2,950 fps with 180-gr. Same rim and head .523" of the 300 and 6.5 PRCs. Case length in between. Overall length 3.34", same as 30-06. Twist rate 1:8.

[@spiceolife]

We keep referring to these as "new" cartridges, is that cause we're American and want all the credit for ourselves? Or at some point are we going to give the Japanese some credit? 6.5x50sr type 38 Arisakas been around a looooong time. Even longer than our beloved .270s.

[@jic1]

The other Military 6.5s from the late 19th century match or exceed 6.5 Arisaka, have been around longer, and have the advantage of being rimless. I don't think anybody much is claiming it's a *bad* cartridge, but there's nothing innovative or especially notable about it.

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

You guys missed an important point. Sectional Densities. These new cartridges can penetrate further on any shot thanks to the higher SD’s over traditional cartridges.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Veteran, as McNugget writes below, cartridge construction changes relative values of SD significantly. At best SD numbers are "valid" predictors of penetration potential only between bullets of the same material and construction. So, a long, sleek, high B.C. .308 cup-core would/should penetrate farther than a short, round nose, low B.C. .308 of the same weight and MV. Thanks for bringing this up, sir.

[@johncoulter1223]

Shooting it 450 yards is like shooting a bow and arrow it a 100 yards

[@rogerramjet7567]

What’s happened to hunting?? A thousand yards? Why bother. I’ll just quit. Terrible. I always get within a couple hundred yards or less. That’s hunting.

[@MrHf4l]

Ron why do you look like you can’t wait to get this conversation over with?

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

What can the 6.5CM, 6.5PRC or 6.5-284 do that a 6.5x55 can't? The poor Swede can't match the stupid hype! This is a tragic reality.

[@hantus77]

300wsm

[@gordonwells1626]

Next time Joseph wear a decent shooting hat not a fancy bow cap….

[@KeepingitAnalog]

Over 400 yards is BS. 9.9 out of 10 hunters are not capable of shooting past that.

[@invictus3598]

In my opinion, hunting any game animal demands ethical outcomes, regardless of the technology used. Anything less has no place - unprepared or experimental shooters should aspire to be supreme slayers of paper targets and tin cans.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

I might rephrase your point slightly to say hunting game demands ethical conduct and intent. We strive to do things right, but we can no more guarantee every shot, no matter how carefully launched, will kill instantly than Nature can guarantee every lightning strike or wildfire or drought or flood will kill quickly. Train to be your best and do your best, then work within your limits, striving for perfection, prepared for less, always learning and striving to do better.

[@bluntbone]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors I agree with both of you. In addition, 270 Win and 300 WM can do anything those new wiz bang cartridges can do inside 500 yards so I have no need for the new ones. I know the ballistic differences between 308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor manifest sooner, but 308 does just fine... If I were buying a long range fun/competition rifle today I would pick 6.5 creed over 308 but I have a 308 that has had a few thousand rounds through it which I know and know my capability with. I expect it may outlast me, but if the barrel gets tuckered out I'll rebarrel it in the new caliber...or maybe even 6.5x55 since the rifle is a standard length action and handloaded the Swede will out perform the creedmoor and avoid the -1 round capacity that goes along with the fat bodied cartridges. You guys did not touch on that, but more capacity, esp in a fun gun, is better.

[@shootingthebreeze4432]

I don’t feel it pertinent to tell others how far is too far. I feel like 400 yards in ideal conditions is my absolute max no matter what rifle setup or cartridge.

[@bluntbone]

For each person and (each rifle of theirs) that range is different. The people that don't understand their limitations should keep shooting paper and steel until they understand their personal limitations.

[@sakostwwy1903]

Wow, just wow. This video should be required by law to be watched before anyone buys a "long range hunting" setup. This 6.5 BS needs to stop and its writers and influencers like yourselves that can do it. I too have seen extremely piss poor performance on Elk out of the 6.5 PRC and even worse on the Creed. Why the hell this trend of smaller is better started is beyond me. I think its due to the sheer number of pansy asses out there. Taking elk with a 6.5 Grendel is just Ludacris and unethical period. But yet we see guys doing it and bragging about it like its some kind of achievement. It is just sickening and needs to stop. The glorification of these sub-par cartridges needs to stop. There needs to be way more said about the old adage of "just because you can, does not mean you should" Would love to see more of a stand on "More is better" for the benefit of the game animals and the less suffering they will endure. And for hell sakes, this barrel burning BS and recoil talk also needs to stop. if you cant handle the recoil, go back to your mom's basement, your not fit for hunting anyways. If you cant afford a new barrel on your gun after hunting with it for 30 years, you got way more problems than a burned up barrel can solve.

[@snyd3rcg]

marketing hype.

[@gusloader123]

Ugh! What garbage thinking from the "Younger" guy. Send this video to the "Round File"! Last week (about) he had great input about NOT using horses on a hunting trip. I "liked" it and commented on it. The LAST thing you should be doing is promoting the LUNACY of long-range shooting at game animals. I did NOT say "hunting", I said shooting at. There are already far TOO many wannabe "snipers" out there that never went to the Recruiting Station and signed up for the Army or the M.C., so they want to pretend they are shooting at a "Jihadi" in a foreign country when they aim at a four-legged game animal with their moon-gazing mega-money hunks-o-glass at a quarter of a mile away, (440 yards). A Game Animal is NOT a Paper Target at The Camp Perry or Palma Matches. Now the guy in the video is promoting the idea of shooting a game animal at 600 yards. BARF! There are already far too many wounded game animals because lazy people WOUND them with their Wonder-by magnum cannons but do NOT kill the critter. The wounded animal wanders/crawls off into the brush, trees, ravines and becomes food for bears, cats, wolverines, wolves, coyotes, etc., all because the shooter was too far away, and toooo lazy to trail after the wounded animal. Good grief dude, man-up and learn to HUNT and to STALK and to CALL a game animal like Daniel Boone or Ethan Allen or Jedidiah Smith did! They used round lead balls in Flintlock rifles with Black powder. Shots were within a hundred yards. Archers also stalk & hunt. I suggest that both the newer guy and the Host get ahold of some copies of "Traditional Bowhunter" magazine and read and learn from real hunters that shoot game from 5 yards to 40 yards.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Gus, I appreciate your passion and commend your ethical choices on shot distance, but I also understand how/why there are no absolutes in this enterprise. Regardless the era, some hunters have always stretched their range. Bison hunters were regularly lobbing them in there way, way beyond 100 yards. And choice of tool, like bow, doesn't predict ethical shooting. I see videos of bow hunters shooting at 75, 100 yards! And I know rifle hunters who shouldn't be firing at game at 100 yards. But I agree with you that hunters should not be shooting at any distance when they do not have experience and supreme confidence that the shot they are about to take will score. Knowing you limits is the key. That said, time of flight becomes an important consideration. Once your projectile requires more than a half second to reach the target, said target has more than enough time to move and screw up your shot. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@gusloader123]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Well, it was nice that you replied. Officially it is your channel, and you can say what you want to and have whoever guests you want to. You were mentioned a couple / few weeks ago on a different Y.T. channel in the comments before you had the "newer/younger" guy on. Apparently, you admitted (or bragged?) that you had shot & killed a game animal at some very long unethical distance. Some folks on that comment section said they would never watch/listen to you again. If you had done that, you should have kept quiet about it. Again: Your program/channel is about hunting and rifles, NOT about shooting enemy combatants on a faraway hill/mountain in A-stan or Iraq or Syria. I realize that I am in the minority on this, but I use iron (metallic) sights not moon-gazing telescopes. If the hunter/shooter cannot see the animal, the animal is out-of-range, and should NOT be shot at. Get closer by stalking or calling!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

@@gusloader123 Gus, I may be wrong, but I've always felt that I should sample, possibly try, as many techniques and approaches to hunting as possible if I was going to write about them with authority. As a result I've hunted with sticks and stones, bows, handguns, blackpowder rifles and shotguns, pump, break-action, falling block, autoloading, lever-action, straight pull and turn bolt actions rifles. Iron sights, scopes, red-dots. I've hunted deer with 22 centerfires and 50-cal. muzzleloaders and dozens of other cartridges. I've taken them at 10 yards and beyond 600 yards. I've hunted and shot from trees, barns, abandoned houses, hay stacks, vehicles, pit blinds, tents, and wide open mountains. I've hunted by calling, decoying, crawling, baiting, and virtually every other legal method. I suspect there is at least one critic who will condemn me for each approach I've taken. But my investigations have taught me tolerance for others and their methods while cementing my preferences -- spot and stalk, still-hunting, and tracking with "average" single-shot and bolt-action hunting rifles on the light side shooting cartridges in the middle of the pack via small, light scopes in the 2-15X range (usually 3-9X) at ranges out to 400, usually inside of 300 yards. I know some will condemn me for this for one reason or another, but I'm operating within the law and within my own restrictions/standards. I try to remember that my way is not the only way and other hunters may choose to do things differently. So long as they abide by the laws, I will not condemn them. I might find some forms of legal "hunting" unfair or disagreeable or "unsportsmanlike" by my standards, but who appointed me boss of the world? I think, for what it's worth, each of us should set our standards for how we hunt, but I don't think we have the right to demand the same of everyone. That said, I respect everyone who sets his/her own strict standards and adheres to them, even the guy who will hunt nothing but 5-year-old buck whitetails with nothing more than self-made deer hide moccasins, naked, using a homemade bow, arrows, and stone points, stalking only. Cheers Gus, and happy hunting however you do it.

[@gusloader123]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast - Thanks for the reply.

[@adamshaw8214]

The talking heads.

[@ronlowney4700]

🤠 Ron, this is the 7mm prc link! 😯 Be the First Gun Writer to cover this most anticipated cartridge! 😁 FYI - I got your back! 👍 saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Public-Introduction-7mm-Precision-Rifle-Cartridge-2022-06-16.pdf

[@ronlowney4700]

🤠 As you can see Ron, this information wasn't even made available until a week ago! 🤑 Happy writing/researching! 😁👍

[@ronlowney4700]

🤠 Mabey, one day after I shoot that World Record Mule Deer, you can have me on the podcast? 🤑

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

@@ronlowney4700 I definitely would!

[@ronlowney4700]

😂 I guess I better get to work then! 🦌

[@beestoe993]

"I" make a distinction between Long range shooting and Hunting. I believe hunting distance should have some reasonable limits. For instance, can you hit the vitals repeatedly from said distance, or if the animal moves when the rifle goes bang could it cause a bad shot? I would encourage others to also make such a distinction, for several reasons.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

Good points, Bees.

[@jk-kr8jt]

Bees toes, agree with you and could add many other factors. But mainly, not just hitting the vital repeatedly, hitting the vitals FIRST shot EVERY time. No "walking" it on to the target. First time, every time. Respect for the animal. To us it's a sport, until the trigger is squeezed, then it's deadly serious. Thank you for pointing that out to people. Cheers, Jeff

[@TexanUSMC8089]

Since the bullet is going faster than the speed of sound, you shouldn't need to worry about the bang alerting a deer.

[@beestoe993]

@@TexanUSMC8089 The bang is not the problem. That was just an expression. The problem is that at some of the extreme distances people are shooting at these days (and hunting), it takes so long for the bullet to arrive that critters have time to move enough to make a mess of a shot before the bullet even gets there.

[@johnkertzman3223]

​@@beestoe993 and you really don't have to be that far away, I had a deer take a step one time while I was shooting at it at about 300 yards with my old 30-06 and a hit further back in the liver. I was aiming for the heart/lungs and I was in a ground blind with a steady rest and my hunting buddy was in The blind with me. He saw the deer take a step through the spotting scope right as I fired! that's my problem with long range shooting there's too many variables like swirling winds and unpredictability of the animals themselves, not worth the risk and the tracking job that follows!

[@SuperJuiceman11]

Great podcast. Awesome points on flight time and ballistics. Reminds me of something I learned in physics class. Say a track and field 400m runner (440yds / 1/4 mile) which is 1 lap around the track has a tailwind heading down the first straight away to his back. After making the first turn he now has a headwind going down the back straightaway. You would think this would even out right? because he runs into a headwind for the same amount of distance that he runs with a tailwind. But no! This actually hurts the runner because he spends more time running into a headwind than he does running with a tail wind. It has to do with duration not distance. Just like with the flight time of a bullet if you decrease it the projectile spends less duration affected by the environment

[@cameronjohnson6838]

That darn 280AI has been calling my name lately

[@christopherfoley2819]

250 yards is hunting, 400 yards plus shot is an assination. Long live the 270

[@TheWVgoodguy22]

The Dynamic Duo of Gun Writers. So glad as I mentioned before that you two were able to collaborate. I watched the short version of this, glad that you posted the full podcast too.

[@travissmith-wz5nc]

270 weatherby. Problem solving out to 800 yards

[@tacman2893]

I am an “ole fudd” as well Ron. Haven’t seen much that would make me want to change my 30/30, 45-70 and stable of Weatherby cartridges out to something new … at least for what I do. My newest hunting cartridge is the 7mm REM Mag! (1962 is when I think it came out)

[@MrBarramundi]

"Live, eat, dream long range hunting. You can't be a part timer." I like that Joseph said that because it fascinates me to see so many 'long range' setups for sale that are clearly very new and hardly used because shooters seem to think that the rifle will turn them into a "sniper".

[@letsdothis9063]

What's crazy, is that those guys usually started out on a farm with a shotgun, and something like. 30-30 (at least my generation).

[@billnewell7786]

As a longtime subscriber to Shooting Times, I have been reading JVBs work for years. Great to get to see and hear him!

[@cottonkiller8081]

For me personally I don't shoot a hunting past 500 yards even though I'm more than capable of making shots at 1000 to me that's just the maximum limit I feel like you should Hunter

[@gusloader123]

Nobody should. Paper targets at Creedmoor or Camp Perry or The Palma Matches are not Game animals. This video is really bad information. There are already too many wounded game animals.

[@TexanUSMC8089]

My favorites for hunting in western areas for deer are 6.5 PRC, 280 AI, 7 Rem Mag. For South Texas where we have more hills and less wind and the deer are less than 150 yards away...7-08, 6.5 Creedmoor, 308, and 30-30. 30-30 for deer 100 yards or closer is extremely hard to beat. I have cartridges that I like better than others, but I like them all. There is no such thing as the best. There are too many animals to hunt in way too many environments.

[@BCBtrucks64]

Everything Ron said about the 6.5cm but at 300 max that’s why I bought a cm not to hit game at 500 or 800 or 1000 yards but for the point blank ability at 300

[@chrisdaniel1339]

Technology has turned people that hunt into 'shooters' where as 50 years ago people that hunted were truly 'hunters.' Before technology hunters had 'trade craft', they quietly stalked their game and got significantly closer to their quarry before taking a shot to ethically harvest game. Today you have people with questionable ethics taking significantly longer shots from one ridge to another with less than ideal results. There is a big difference between accuracy at the range sitting at a shooting table or prone vs hunting practical accuracy when in the woods and plains where game live. To make certain of an ethical harvest I would keep my distance to 300 yards, I may extend to 400 yards if there were absolutely perfect conditions. That being said, it is easier to creep/stalk 100 yards to be within 300 yds than to risk an unethical shot from a longer distance.

[@avs4706]

Dear Ron, Please allow me a more personal note I was triggered to write in reaction to your video with Joseph von Benedikt (kzbin.info/www/bejne/ml66ZX1jgJxrbNE). I follow your publications and very much support how you position respectful hunting as an integral part of long-term care for our natural environment. It is not really possible - meaning realistically feasible - to ensure a balanced ecology without judicious hunting. But there is the rub too: what is judicious? The intellectual father of this notion, Ferdinand von Raesfeld, coined the phrase “Hege mit der Büchse”, “to manage with the gun”. The “gun” was only to be used to improve the quality and age-structure of the species; his ideas found their roots in ancient Germanic traditions of taking care not to ‘overhunt’. But Raesfeld, having defined ‘what’ to shoot, never thought that ‘when’ to shoot would include discussions on yardage to the extent we are discussing now. As the technical limitations have ever more receded, to the extent that gun bullets adopt artillery trajectories, the only limit proposed is the accuracy of the shot. Joseph emphasizes this by stating that 600-yards shots can be considered responsible “if the shooter lives and breathes long-distance shooting”. Which incidentally means an infinite minority of hunters. What strikes and disappoints me is the omission in this discussion of what hunting is fundamentally about: profoundly participating in the Wheel of Nature, to connect with its magic and mesmerising wonder in a way that endlessly spins-out, whether we - mankind - intervene or not. In such participation lies the very justification of hunting and the answer to why: we hunt prey as it is hunted by Nature, killing the mature, the superfluous, the weak and the sick, regardless of Man’s interventions. When we do so, we simply do as Nature does too. Seeing hunting this way must surely draw us away from any consideration of shooting at distances that are only possible with extreme technical assistance, separating us from the prey we are striving to connect with, the full-bodied act of hunting with all it entails, into which we are trying to immerse ourselves. If you cannot ‘see’ the animal with your naked eye; if you have to ‘calculate’ bullet trajectories beyond a simple estimated correction for circumstances you see and feel, we are disconnecting ourselves and defeating the very purpose of our hunting. In your discussion with Joseph, there is a sense of apology about setting clear limits based no hunting ethics - which are only partly articulated by accuracy; a reluctance to offend would-be snipers and braggarts. This should not be. Shooting beyond the ‘connection distance’ with the prey is not hunting ethically; it’s target shooting. In the end, all such ‘shooting’ which cannot be explained as hunting in the sense I defined above, whether in rifle or shotgun hunting, especially driven shoots, will lead to ever greater incomprehension by the ever-expanding urban populations, who vote on such issues and have little qualms of simply forbidding the shooting of animals. I’m a lifelong mountain hunter in the Alps and just don’t want to shoot beyond 300m, for all these reasons; no technical capabilities will change that, as you will understand, those technical capabilities have nothing to do with this chosen limitation. My walls are filled with what I call ‘white trophies’: all the game that I didn’t shoot, because not all the rules could be met; apart form the suitability of the animal, the distance for reliable accuracy, the ability to see how the animal reacts to the shot and where it goes if it is not down immediately and needs to be searched, the accessibility of the terrain to dog and man in such a case. I’m sure this limit is a very difficult one to accept when carrying a modern supergun (“not a gun, but a weapon” as my father says) and looking out over the endless flat plains in the West. But still, ethics trump all and there is always, always the choice of either being a better or luckier hunter and get closer to the prey, or simply saying: “No, this will be a white trophy, this is not for me now and proudly so”. Kind regards, Alexander

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thank you for your carefully reasoned and passionately explained philosophy, Alexander. While I agree that urban non-hunters may be "turned off" by extreme range, high tech, tool assisted shooting, one can also argue that they also object to close-range bow hunting, spear hunting, etc. Nevertheless, research and surveys have shown that the closer hunter behavior is to the "Daniel Boone" or "Grandpa single-shot" ideal, the more accepting non-hunters are of hunting. In other words, they respect woodsmanship and fieldcraft. Not so much high tech.

[@bustersmith5569]

I would never shoot any big game at 600 yds !!! varmits maybe ? TY Ron !!

[@lonniefransen2946]

The biggest problem I see is happening is with all these apps etc you can hit at that distance but the cartridge is not up to the power needed and bullet performance at that distance 6.5 Creedmoor is not a 800 yds deer or elk cartridge for an example

[@joeblowporkhead864]

Telling people they are good to go shooting 600 to 1000 yards at game is asking for wounded game if they tell you about it or not ! I don't agree.

[@davidbrock1565]

I "had" to have a 7mm Remington Magnum a couple decades ago and did enjoy shooting with it. Around 2010 I stumbled across info on the 280 AI. After a lot of thinking and searching I jumped on the bandwagon. Another great discussion RSO!

[@ewetho]

One thing about sharp shoulders is as the firing pin hits the primer the case tens to collapse. Bellm has shown that with a Contender/Encore the 30-06 or 22-250 may collapse into the chamber 0.005-6” while a sharper shoulder such as Creedmoor or Ackley will collapse only 0.001”. This will help provide more positive consistent ignition.

[@arniegudgeon570]

I just consulted a fellow which had a 798 Remington that was a 7mm Remington hate to say what the hundred yard group sizes where, it's re-barreled because of accuracy problems, 26" medium contour barrel, and chambered it in 270 Weatherby no free bore and twist rate of 1-8, he is going with the Barnes builts, made more for paper targets.

[@hadleyscott1160]

Now that’s funny about the Creedmore cartridge. I grew up on the island. But Creedmore is known as a Mental hospital there. At least by me. I never heard of a shooting range. FYI-I own one. 6.5 it’s hard to get away from it. What about the 325 WSM cartridges, why didn’t 8 mm ever catch on like in Europe?

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Where I am in Europe not many people shoot 8mm though. They kick like a donkey. I think US calibers are used a lot nowadays, not least because of the price. 308 and 30-06, even 270. More ammo choice and much cheaper than classic euro calibers.

[@justhavingfun0736]

Loved the show. Thank you for sharing your years of knowledge.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

Your video was a lot better in complete form. Thanks. I liked it

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

We sometimes like to give a short version for folks who haven't time for the long. Glad you enjoyed.

[@aaronmiles1971]

I loved Ron's reaction to moose hunting with the 6.8 western.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast]

My moose response was based on the bulls I've taken with 130-gr. 270 WSM, 120-gr. 6.5-06, 140-gr. 280 AI, etc.

[@aaronmiles1971]

Well done sir. I'm hoping the 6.8 stays around. The model 70 being released, has definitely spiked my interest.

[@sobe303]

How about 7mm PRC now that it is out?!?