Defining the Dark vs Edgy Debate

[@MATAX5]

I’m rather shocked that you actually went with my advice. Though a lot of people have been lately. Maybe I just hang around too many irrational people. I was hoping you’d make the video in context of Pp chapter 3 but this definitely works! You did a very good job! Well done! Now make a video tearing Pp chapter 3 apart.

[@PufferfishCreationsOfficial]

We gottem fellas

[@MATAX5]

@@PufferfishCreationsOfficial I forgot to iterate, edgy subtext in your story can work very well if it’s directed towards the antagonist of your story. The darker themes can be reserved for your protagonist whose skills spawned through their difficult lifestyle they are forced to endure. In comparison, it makes the antagonist look pathetic compared to your protagonist. Something a lot of media tends to end up doing the opposite of, making the villain seem more interesting than your self insert protagonist. Think the careers from the hunger games books, they’ve trained their whole lives to participate in the hunger games willingly, working every day so they have a chance to come on top. Meanwhile our protagonist, Katniss, has to live in that environment every day thus, became more prepared for the hunger games than the careers after she is forced to volunteer. The careers talk big and scary but Katniss is what they’re trying to be.

[@lilracc00n]

@@MATAX5 yapper

[@pavlemarjanovic1896]

​@@MATAX5Yeah, seems like it. It's kinda like the Dunning-Kruger effect. The more people brag the more they are less effective.

[@Tiosedan]

Can't decide if this is NPC material or Final boss monologue.

[@BionicDeathclaw]

Blood Meridian isn't thought of as edgy because of the beautiful writing, and the fact that the worst stuff isn't shown on page but only implied.

[@DaneScholz-jp4gt]

It also kind of feels less edgy because it’s portraying stuff that actually happened (with creative liberties obviously).

[@jacobburns7742]

Sincerity and tone.

[@BrunoDelacroix-n9w]

Plus the bad stuff is done by horrible people(the judge and litteral gangsters ) and it's viewed by the narrator as bad

[@jacobburns7742]

@@BrunoDelacroix-n9w So the perspective character has to view bad and good as bad and good with all the antagonists neatly put in their place as bad not good with zero subjectivity? Ok, read Lolita. :P lol. Point being it has nothing to do with bad guys needing to be viewed as bad guys, and following a protagonist that clearly has an understanding of good despite these being subjective terms made with absolutist words. It has to do with the authors message and the sincerity by which what their writing is trying to say. Lord of The Rings, Berserk, Blood Meridien, these stories are good pieces of dark and/or edgy fiction due to them being made with sincerity and intent. It isnt just dark or edgy when it is dark and edgy just to be dark and or edgy. They have something about the world or the nature of being the writer is trying to say. Im not trying to be mean, just trying to share my perspective. After all, Guts is no bastion of purity or moral virtue, but Berserk is objectively the best if not one of the best pieces of fiction to ever come out of the east.

[@Lucien_M]

​@@jacobburns7742good point. Goblin slayer was put on blast for its first episode, even though the goblins were recognised as bad and killed by the protagonist.

[@Karl_I_Am29]

Doing a bad thing just to be dark = Edgy Doing a bad thing for a purpose = Dark

[@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947]

That is absurd, people will do bad things for a purpose or not, this has nothing to do with "darkness" as a theme. Darkness refers to fear and horror, often times, of the unknown.

[@nynvib276]

​@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947 They're not talking about the motive behind characters actions they're talking about the motive of the writers dingus.

[@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947]

@@nynvib276 Doesn't change a thing, genius

[@nynvib276]

@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947 It absolutely does and the fact that you can't comprehend that is ridiculous. Dingus.

[@tonymacaroni955]

​@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947 yeah, it doesn't change a thing because you both are talking about 2 entirely different things ya dingus.

[@arielgalles2107]

For me, something needs to have a specific aesthetic for it to be edgy. Being dark has more to due with the actual subject manner. For example, in the Lion King, the scene where Mufasa dies is dark because it deals with grief and death but in a very grounded and somber way. Meanwhile, Scar's "be prepared" song is edgy because of the kickass green lighting and overdramatic evil plotting.

[@arthurcosta4643]

You know what? That is actually a really liberating definition that i can get behind. Edgy, in that interpretation, is not necessarily synonimous with bad, wich opens the door for a lot of exploration.

[@arthurdias6860]

@@arthurcosta4643exatcly, sometimes being edgy can work, even if not for the purpose it works It can be to be funny

[@anitaremenarova6662]

Lion King isn't dark, the core of the movie is positive. Also no, aesthetics don't make anything edgy or dark. It's the constant overuse of dark themes, violence etc.

[@thehevandragon]

@anitaremenarova6662 Which is why Ariel said “the scene”.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

@@thehevandragon Singing about scheming with green light in the background isn't dark or edgy, sorry.

[@Kajnake]

What I can take away from the video is that; If you stab a baby, its dark But if you stab a baby and its presented from multiple angles for shock value, its bad edgy If you stab a baby and its somehow funny, its good edgy But if you stab a baby and its somehow a metaphor for a mundane real life fear or problem, its dark comedy And if the baby is stabbed and its 40 years old then it becomes a classic of dark writing

[@TahaSaikh]

you know how insane this comment sound without context

[@Kajnake]

@@TahaSaikh it could get me in a watch list, but I play rimworld so it doesn't really change much 😉👍

[@Fruad_jo]

@@Kajnakejust having rimworld put you on a watch list(I’m the agent)

[@Kajnake]

@@Fruad_jo omg hi! (we go way back)

[@Fruad_jo]

@@Kajnake WATARI WE’VE BEEN COMPROMISED SHUT THE SIMULATION DOWN

[@specialknees6798]

I dislike the way that edginess has become synonymous with “cringe and bad”, especially since the people using the word that way tend to use it inconsistently. People who employ dark/shocking humor(or media with edgy aesthetics), will often be criticized for their edginess, while simultaneously being criticized for “trying(and failing) to be edgy.” Edginess is simultaneously something you should not be and something you should not fail to be. Rarely do I ever see edginess applied as a neutral description of a person or thing. It’s always charged one way or another.

[@doclouis4236]

It's "edgy" because it's taking dark themes and handling it poorly by making it goofy and childish. That's what most people make fun of. That's what the word edgy means. Kind of like all those mascot horror games you see now like Poppy Playtime. People nowadays are overusing that word to describe something that doesn't appropriately fit the term. Something that is "dark" is more mature in how it conveys its themes rather than doing it for shock value, there's a purpose behind it all.

[@anthonylius1265]

edgy used to mean "deep" in a dark, forward-thinking way. being at the edge of acceptability, or ahead of the curve. people tried so hard to be edgy that the word became associated with it's own failure, same as the other words the video mentioned at the beginning.

[@bluelightstudios6191]

the digital circus is ironically a better representation of Hell then Agony ever was. It's not about the suffering or the torment and the brime stone and fire, it's about the fact that no matter how much you go through, how much you suffer and try. the real hell is the fact that you can never leave it. Hell can be a literal fun, colourful and welcoming circus where you and a bunch of friends go on wacky and zanny adventures together in what seems like a child friendly setting, the catch, your trapped there forever, eventually everything gets old, the unpredictable world with looney tune logic that's over saturated with bright colors and weird shapes become hell in of itself due to how much it burns your senses, eventually desperately seeking darkness to hide from it all and going crazy to the point of no return which is considered as death in the universe.

[@stikbot101Official]

i feel like the same thing could be said about heaven

[@BrunoDelacroix-n9w]

​@@stikbot101Officialnot really in alot of religions the main thing of heaven that you can't feel begative emotions, unlike hell so you can go on adventures, eat, socialise without it getting old + you're with averagely good people

[@BrunoDelacroix-n9w]

I don't think that the fire and brimstone represantation of hell can't work but that you need a message to tell that what make both divine comedy and TADC great, if TADC was just SEE FAMILY FRIENDLY ASTHETICS CAN BE SCARY PLUS SEE OMG I HATE MY FRIENDS then it will be worst than agony

[@skylarsworld9477]

This is the worst take I have ever read

[@destroyerofturtles5024]

@@skylarsworld9477 I think you’re smelly

[@zeal4965]

I do agree the Eminence in Shadow is edgey, but I will say that it's the reason the show is funny. Cid is an absolute idiot of an edgelord who lucks out constantly.

[@WeirdTale]

Basically edgy for comedic purposes.

[@oofacethemilkshake806]

That's the best part

[@Box-O-Soldier]

Not only is *he* an idiot, somehow everyone else is an even *BIGGER* idiot, making him somehow the smartest dude in the room by the power of ever present stupidity lol

[@indescribablycoolikeafurniture]

pretty sure the whole thing is just a power fantasy shitpost either way it's so stupidly edgy it's hilarious

[@ScrappySensei]

I was about to say the same thing The Eminence in Shadow becomes a lot more enjoyable once you find out that it's a comedy series.

[@King_of_Clovers]

I would say "Dark" is whenever a writer purposely adds disturbing imagery to its themes while "Edgy" is anytime a writer uses something dark to be cool. For example, a professional hunter who uses blood magic in combat, has nerves of steal, has human skulls as shoulder pads, has a traumatic, and is always serious would be edgy. But, if you took that same guy and add stuff like PTSD, sucks at talking to people, a pet mouse who he loves, ect, he stops being edgy.

[@Hideyourgaspipes]

So by your logic games like doom and Cyperpunk are bad because the main characters don’t have ptsd or some shit

[@keridmeddi7612]

Bro these additions are making it even more edgy

[@kaegee2579]

@@keridmeddi7612 I disagree. The additions show at least an attempt at fleshing out the character. Things typically deemed as edgy also tend to be seen as very shallow/surface level and often are laughed off or dismissed for "trying to too hard". When you add more to/develop your story and characters, it's less likely to be seen as edgy and more likely to seen as well thought out.

[@keridmeddi7612]

@@kaegee2579 I personally think that "edgy" character doesn't mean that it's an evil character with no development, but instead a character with all the "cool" and "mysterious" development traits, which mostly were added just to be cool and mysterious, that includes cliches like PTSD and all that stuff

[@kaegee2579]

@@keridmeddi7612 Yeah, I get what you mean. I was just trying to explain how I viewed OP's comment. To me, the extra characteristics serve as an example of depth (adding to your character and making them seem more realistic rather than flat or one dimensional). It's like "They aren't JUST [insert description], they're ALSO [insert additional details]. But yeah, generally, I can see how all those traits put together would be deemed as edgy, especially if it's cliche and the reasoning for including those traits is lacking in depth.

[@D3K43]

Watching this video, Madness Combat came to mind very often. Madness Combat is a 20-year-old webseries created by one man by the name of Matt "Krinkles" Jolly. It's 2D animated and is full of cartoonish, over-the-top violence. Textbook "Edge". However as the series goes on, and the lore expands and becomes more in-detail, we find out exactly what sort of environment cultivates that violence, and the characters within it. Madness Combat takes place in Nevada. Not the US state, the entire setting is just "Nevada". A dry, desolate, toxic desert with a never-ending twilight of a crimson sky. A place where cannibalism is necessity, and violence is law. Nevadians adapt to this world, or they die in it. We come to learn that Nevada is a small part of a larger Machine. THE Machine. The Machine that governs reality. We get multiple references through the series of a terminal rot within reality, such as "The thorn in reality is infected" The Machine is broken, and it is dying. The whole series so far has depicted an endless, almost futile struggle against existential forces outside the bounds of common perception as the world is actively dying around you, and Madness governs. It's goofy and edgy at first glance, and still is when you get deeper into it, but it takes place in a dark world where this violence isn't just commonplace, it's the rule of law.

[@alexgremlin3680]

A pretty good example of parodying edgy cliches is Doom. The story is so unbelievable, gorey and full of metal music. You have demons invading a secret lab on Mars and your only form of help is a delusional robot scientist and a super advanced AI. But it subverts the usual bleak tone by replacing the protagonist with an unstoppable badass who's feared BY the demons, not of them. It's less edgy and more ramping up the spectacle. Doom is more akin to a scary haunted house ride. It's not trying to be scary, it's trying to be a spectacle to be enjoyed.

[@jeremychicken3339]

Doomguy made all of hell fear him despite the fact that he's just a human with a shotgun.

[@alexgremlin3680]

@@jeremychicken3339 He don't need no shotgun. He just needs his BATE HANDS!

[@genyakozlov1316]

The only good Doom is the PS1 version with Aubrey Hodges horror score. None of that Bobby Prince, except some horror tracks like "They're going to get you", and none of that Mick Gordon. I don't respect that Doom.

[@alexgremlin3680]

@@genyakozlov1316 Doom's not a horror series.

[@jeremychicken3339]

@@genyakozlov1316 The only good doom to you is a port for the PS1, I swear on Decino's pumpkin head you better delete this comment before the OG doom mob comes.

[@RafelChip]

To me, Dark=killing character and being gory to progress the plot/invoke Emotion Edgy= killing characters and being gory because you wanted to kill characters and be gory Being dark is a creative decision, being edgy is doing whatever decision gets the most shock value

[@rubenthekid]

I wouldn't agree with that considering edgy writers might think killing and being gory has a purpose in evoking emotions or have something to do with the story. It's more like dark=realistic/believable, Edgy=unrealistic/absurd. A movie like The Road is dark. Threads and When the Wind Blows is dark. Sausage Party is edgy. Most Mondofilms are edgy.

[@--CHARLIE--]

Shock value is a creative decision. Unless of course you meant a decision that is creative, and not a decision made during the creative process.

[@baconflakes3345]

Is killing characters to cause chaos in the plot edgy or no? Because to a certain extent, you would only be killing them to kill them. E.G, having random members of the protagonists group or the protagonist themselves just getting smoked out of the blue

[@RafelChip]

@@baconflakes3345 not imo because it’s still for the plot

[@baconflakes3345]

@@RafelChip alr

[@jorgeperez2872]

The eminence in shadow is possibly the worst example you could take for a "bad Isekai" or "self insert fantasy". The protagonist literally is at shock with plot because he thinks everyone is playing with him as actors in a play that are trying to pull his legs. Is similar to One punch man, the villains try to take themselves so seriously just for the protagonist to blow them up at a moments notice.

[@ryntrinity]

Yes! and if we see the world through the eyes of the side-characters, it's such a dark unforgiving world! Shadow is just there for the literal Roleplay Game, the last scene of the current season shows that so well, I was tricked soo bad for a hot second thinking that Shadow was just turning dark and I got UPSET! only for him to just go (basically) haha jk it was great! it's one of my favorite animes, I love TTRPG and I felt very seen xD Shadow just rolls straight Nat 20s and its HILARIOUS! Its just comedy and subversion of expectations all around, playing with dark themes like a silly kid. it's when he built his story afterall! xD

[@thatoneguy8907]

Not to mention the whole deal is a parody to begin with. We see into the mind of Cid and know the comedic amount of effort he goes through to be ‘dark and mysterious’ as well as how much the story bends over backwards to prove that this ‘idiot’ is absolutely correct without meaning to When I see Cid moving a Piano into the sewer or adjust his room for the sake of presentation or even kill a random nobody with one of his most powerful attack I don’t think ‘dark’ or even ‘edgy’ but just ridiculous and funny. The story is meant to be a comedy because despite the world taking itself so seriously there is always something to take the piss out of it, be it Cid, the quirky characters or even the stupid names some of them have

[@evollove3522]

It is so freaking funny how Cid goes like "Random Bullshit GO!!" and the world just complies.

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

I love that you bring up that something being “edgy” isn’t inherently a bad thing

[@zionsgatesmedia]

Edgy is an aesthetic. Dark is a theme.

[@bigheadman8590]

I say this as a genuine question, how would you define theme

[@anarchemy7905]

@@bigheadman8590setting, characters etc

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

@@bigheadman8590Some kind of philosophy or broad idea that gets explored throughout the series, I would say

[@gamingwhacka1782]

I’d say dark is more of a tone

[@WanderTheNomad]

Batman's costume is edgy. Batman's backstory is dark.

[@chinelagaming]

I'm edging in the dark

[@MegafanX123]

Hold up is his writing this fire!

[@xenosarcadius1198]

​@@MegafanX123fr

[@virus04324]

🔥✍

[@Jacob-hr6bq]

😂😂😂 thank you. Your comment is the only decent one so far. There are too many shit opinions on what is dark vs. edgy in the main comment section. Your comment was a relief from the discomfort.

[@12DAMDO]

this is the only correct response to this topic.. you just won a comment award

[@bananalimb1002]

him calling narnia an isekai and then realising he wasnt wrong had me going through all 8 stages of grief

[@LordofdeLoquendo]

It's five stages of grief.

[@bananalimb1002]

@@LordofdeLoquendo you may go through 5 stages but i personally go through 8

[@LordofdeLoquendo]

@@bananalimb1002 What are the extra 3 stages?

[@gavinhazan1415]

@@LordofdeLoquendoyou go through the first 3 again

[@LordofdeLoquendo]

@@gavinhazan1415 So you still bargain for something

[@glidershower]

I don't think the term "edgy" itself should be a qualitative term, as for example, _Berserk_ has very 'edgy' themes like ræp and torture, it takes place in a 'dark' setting (a dark ages/very early war-torn medieval society), yet it manages to convey it all thru its excellent story as a genuine tale of human despair and hope. I think that in the modern context, tho, the labels "dark" and "edgy" are denominators of the amount of substance a story has, from _heavily saturated_ to _very lacking,_ respectively.

[@lonelystarslibrary9326]

Fuck Berserk

[@Justforamoment0608]

Never really liked berserk but I agree with you, I’m more of a tokyo ghoul, jagaaaan type of person

[@jabberwockjester1455]

I'm scared to read/watch Berserk. Not because of all the contents, but because I'm aware of how well they're handled and how much effort was put into them. I've seen probably much worse than a lot of the stuff in that series, but I'd still probably be traumatised were I to read the manga. I've been considering the anime though, but it's a hard barrier for what I'm aware is one of the greatest stories ever told. It is extremely edgy though. That's something that shouldn't be argued since that doesn't determine quality. Like how something having a good story doesn't make it handle it's genre or setting well by default. There are people who take issue with how Treasure Planet handles steam punk despite liking the story.

[@ScolordCariotty]

The definition its technically, the same, but the use of the word "edgy" had made us just instantly think on "edgy = shit" but cause people abused it

[@Dr.AvenVon]

many people say that something is edgy when they think it is silly over the top, or "cringe". but some stuff can be edgy without being cringe.

[@RavishingPimp]

Yeah, like Dante from DMC. He is an over the top showoff, and has a very edgy story, but he thrives in this world, since he owns it, and is funny about it

[@thejoaquindead9515]

@@RavishingPimpI personally wouldn’t describe Dante himself as edgy (that would be his brother). It’s like you said, he’s too funny about it.

[@Murphy_Law]

The thing that seperates Blood Merdian from a lot of edgy works is the presentation due to the poetic and complex methods McCarthy uses to convey its story. Blood Merdian uses a very vague yet poetic manner to portray its violence rather than putting it straight into your face. It's violence is treated as moreso philosphical on human nature due to the vagueness and poetic manner McCarthy uses, the Judge himself is the most obvious example of this being the literal epitome of philosphical sadism. Meanwhile, Agony is just a game with a bunch of straight-in-your-face gore without the sugercoating, there is absolutely zero reason for it to be gorey at all besides the sole reason for it taking place in Hell. Comparing Blood Merdian to Agony is like comparing two seperate paintings with each having the exact same content, but the difference between the two is that one painting (Agony) is less detailed and more simplistic while the other painting (Blood Merdian) is more detailed and more complex.

[@Otgel]

Blood meridian as a painting has a lot more intent behind the artistic choices, and more thought. Agony is just bloody nonsense.

[@Cappuccino_Rabbit]

Comparing Blood Meridian to Agony is like comparing a whole building to a mini lego house

[@justaserbiandoomer497]

To this day I firmly believe that Judge Holden is the single greatest representation of the devil/pure evil in any piece of media

[@kiwilemontea4622]

There's some things that are definitely edgy that I enjoy for their comedic value. A recent example is the Murder Drones series. It's edgy as hell, but it doesn't take itself seriously. It is unapologetically the kind of stuff a 14 year old edgelord dreams of. To quote the main character, "I think dumb things are frickin' COOL, and I AM FREE!" Sometimes, embracing the cringe can turn edgy content fun.

[@mizery3885]

If you want Agony but actually artistically good, Scorn is terribly underrated.

[@raikasha8152]

I just personally can't get into calling things "edgy" in genuinely serious way since many use to it say something so dark that it doesn't have substance.

[@ryanmaclean1720]

I think another aspect is if there's solid purpose behind it. With Agony it lacked purpose other than shock and disgust while the Judge from Blood Maridian represents the horrors that come from conquest which is why he mourns the final earthly frontier

[@Zenanii]

Edgy is what you get when someone wants to write a dark story/character but forgets they have to add more then just darkness to the story/character.

[@ltg.monkeey]

id say that the difference between dark and edgy is where all the darkness comes from, if the characters are like way darker than their enviornment its most certainly edgy but if the enviornment is dark and the characters aren't as dark id say the story is dark

[@user-the-Nobody]

The transitions between examples are pretty damn good actually

[@Aiden-wg4pu]

From my understanding of dark and edgy, something becomes edgy when it idolizes dark themes, presenting them as cool, or as something to embrace. At the opposite end, non-edgy dark themes treat themselves as a thing to avoid or a sort of lesson to learn from.

[@ВладиславБулаев-л3э]

Would you say that Bhaalspawn storyline from Baldur's Gate series is edgy? The option to embrace absolute evil doesn't make this story (as an example) edgy. There's no idiolizing of the bad, just a story of Nature VS Nurtrue taken to an extreme, which is old as time itself. Parties of the conflict definitely have their own reasons to believe their choice is the right one. To me it's a very dark story, which may seem edgy at times.

[@MyWorld-eb9oz]

I think RDR2 is a great example of something that's dark without being edgy. It's an authentic story that has stuff happen in it that's disturbing and morbid, but that stuff isn't the theme of the story, which can help a dark story not come off as edgy.

[@nudgemepapi]

that thumbnail goes hard

[@jerantonio5264]

edgyness needs a dual category, edge and unaware vs edge and aware. examples are like Hatred, it is edge for the sake of cool without any self awareness, it is black and white like sin city with blood being visible, the mc is strong, intimidating, and he says one liners. Crank is essentially on a similar category with a dumb plot and shock value, but we like crank because it is not taking itself seriously, instead it just wears the edgyness on its sleeve and allows the experience to ride it. You could easily make any dark story edgy by the main character not having the means to carry it, the tone or so on

[@Anon-ymus28]

Why is the thumbnail cool af skeleton with a whip vs venom with a kitchen knife

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

Ghost Rider with its chain whip vs Venom with a knife

[@Armetzger]

For me at least. Edgy is when something incredibly bad or disturbing is portrayed in a positive light, or as if it is something the character or the world takes benefit from using these morally questionable or evil traits without much consequences. While dark on the other hand, is when bad or disturbing happens to a character, and the scene or world are portrayed to make the reader feel uncomfortable or as if the story reflects how bad these things affect not only the world but the characters in them. Spawn is an edgy character, because all of the "negative" traits he has or "endures" end up in fact helping him, or do not give him any long consequences. Guts on the other hand, is a dark character, as his entire journey shows how rough it is for him to cope with the horrors he witnesses, and that those things are neither glamorous or benefiting to Guts, quite the opposite, they scar him for life in ways which he won't ever recover from.

[@grumpysourdough]

loosing your life and being a horrid looking creature with a clown that fucks with you. yeah. no big consequences. both are good really.

[@PERSONII3331PERSONIIEVER]

like the painter

[@Ivan4n09]

We had so much stuff that was edgy but not very dark in the 00s... It's coming back. And it was really funny too! Heck, even Simpsons were edgy at some point...

[@tangroro]

7:27 does this guy know the monologues are supposed to be edgy and cringe because the protagonist is meant to be a chunii, and the show is really a comedy?

[@lydiasteinebendiksen4269]

I feel like the words themselves help a little. If something is dark, there is more than you can see clearly to begin with, there will be room to read your own troubles into it, like how people see shapes in the dark. Ultimately you are faced with revelations if you ever shine a light on it. If it's edgy, it may confront pain, but if it's just full of edge, it's gonne be skin deep and no more. More edges just disperses the force and while there may be a lot of cuts, they won't be that deep. Shine a light on a bunch of sharp edges, and you'll just be blinded. Not to be confused with "having an edge" which simply means an appropriate willingness to use shock to make a message get under your skin. It has to hit right though, or you may just wind up blinding anyone trying to shine a lightbon it. Metaphores are fun you guys.

[@xaius4348]

7:30 It's a comedy that relies on the irony of taking itself too seriously. It's hard to tell at first, but it becomes more and more obvious as you go, that the innate humour is intentional.

[@Densoro]

More specifically than just 'presentation,' I think edge is what happens when dark moments/themes are _under-explored._ When they take shortcuts to seem like they've reached some enlightened understanding of evil, but the shortcuts undercut them and show us how naive their understanding truly is. American Horror Story struggled with this in later seasons. The first two seasons could _hurt_ sometimes, because they showed mundane and even heartwarming moments, and then cruelly ripped those things away. They showed us characters who deserved better, and duly mourned their suffering. The world in AHS s1 wasn't all bad, _but that made the wounds inflicted by evil matter more._ In later and later seasons of AHS, suddenly _every character_ was secretly a serial killer or ray-pissed, which is an exaggeration so out-of-step with reality that nothing it says _haunts you_ the way s1 did, and you don't care about any of the characters because they're all cartoonishly evil morons taking turns peeling their faces off. The writers seemed to think they 'handled' the build-up in season 1, so rather than committing to a new buildup for each season, they just started and ended each season at 10/10 evil all the time. (The concept of 'cartoonish evil' is weird in its own right, because every country's war crimes are as twisted as anything a fictional demon has ever done. The difference is, when a demon does it, it's treated as a dramatic high point; for people with too much power, their petty cruelty is just another Tuesday. Maybe cartoonish evil isn't about the act itself -- turning somebody's flesh into a balloon animal -- so much as the way they preen for the camera while they do it.)

[@saint037]

dark: tries to find the light edge: indulges in the darkness

[@Phantomcrustacean]

7:00 I honestly don’t see it the same way, i love how the MC just does not care about anything going on around him, he’s flipping the world, his in upside down and fundamentally changing it on a cultural level, improving, and we’re saying the lives of the people around him, and he just thinks it’s one big larping session. Everyone else is having life-changing experiences And he’s treating it like a game of D&D, and i can’t help but find that absolutely hilarious and engaging

[@RubyMikotoGaming]

Eminence in Shadow is hilarious. the MC pass speech check every time with his subordinate and the girls have the lowest and highest IQ at the same time. But also I'm not a native English speaker, so reading the subtitle kinda pass my head if it's edgy.

[@Justforamoment0608]

Really, the humor in eminence of shadow is one of the reasons I don’t like it

[@scarf550]

@@Justforamoment0608 that should be the only reason you don't like it because its basically the entire point. Every scenario and character is built around its comedic premise.

[@KeyboardTarantula]

I saw a Ghost Rider in the thumbnail, so here I am.

[@Flairis]

Goddamn, ya'll deserve more subs fr, great video guys!

[@Exosuio]

I think that berserk started out as edgy but started leaning into being dark fantasy a lot more with how we got more backstory on everyone

[@LiterallyRyan_Gosling]

Edgy humor is often just slightly fucked up, dark humor is saying "fly swatters save millions of flies in Africa from aids"

[@SouthernGothicYT]

I think a good example of dark vs edgy would actually come from the dark magical girl genre of anime. Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a pretty dark show but really isn't edgy like how Magical Girl Site is all edge all the time. PMMM doesn't feel the need to twist the knife and be over the top like MGS, and for that it gets more respect in the community.

[@mysmallnoman]

People are snowflakes they can't handle actually dark stories

[@lutherdayz1691]

Am I the only one who looked at the thumbnail and couldn't decide which side was dark, and which as edgy? I think the left was edgy but idk

[@PufferfishCreationsOfficial]

@@lutherdayz1691 that was what I wanted the whole time. A good conversation starter.

[@lucasthedragon7680]

Another good example of dark vs edgy imo is Helsreach vs Pariah: Nexus. In Helsreach, Grimaldus is the last of his squad to survive an apocalyptic battle while also being forced into a position of supreme power he doesn't believe he's ready for but has to be for the sake of everyone around him. Meanwhile Pariah: Nexus is about a Salamander trying desperately to save a group of survivors after a major defeat, and despite his valiant effort, the survivors are killed because it's more depressing that way. One story's bleakness serves a purpose to the overall narrative, but the other is just there for the sake of being there.

[@TheScarredWoIf]

I like this style of content. It's interesting and something I haven't seen before. Keep up the good work guys.

[@ZenithPeak1]

A piece of media that’s dark (and quite LITERALLY dark), are the newer Batman movies because you CANT FUCKING SEE ANYTHING

[@ZenithPeak1]

The new Batman movies are dark physically, but in my opinion, are edgy in presentation

[@Giosuke_Giogashikata]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video essay type video with two people yapping at once. I liked it. Kudos to you two.

[@wrongix6544]

That anime you talked about is literally a parody of those edgy shows xd. Its pure gold because it makes fun of edgy anime

[@VaclavRytina]

If you like it: Dark If you dislike it: Edgy

[@generic_commentator_n2488]

-But if I like something "Edgy"?- Redacted: what would happen if I fuck Metal Hellsinger protagonist?

[@VaclavRytina]

@@generic_commentator_n2488 Then you ruin my comment

[@CheeseGraterToiletPaper]

​@@generic_commentator_n2488then the universe deletes itself

[@justanothercommentercarryo8367]

​@@generic_commentator_n2488you're damned to stub your toe every day for the rest of time...!

[@N1GHTSTRIKER-45]

​@@CheeseGraterToiletPaper Then The Big Bang Restarts Again.....

[@Crow-uh6mj]

One of my favorite movies and just edgy media is Mirror Mask, it has a great art style, but the writing is more charming and comedic. Overall a great movie very much recommended.

[@MannerDan]

I’m glad you made this video. This is a topic I’ve been interested in for a while but I was only ever able to find 1 other video on this subject (that I partially disagreed with.) I really liked this video overall and pretty much agreed with everything you two said. You two deserve way more views and subscribers.

[@the_king_of_kings_3413]

Honestly, I love Eminence in Shadow because I just find it funny in a stupid way, as it’s an anime about a guy trying not to be the main character, while being the main character. Yeah that pretty much sums up the theme of that show lol!!!

[@_cartoon_cat_666]

That thumbnail art is amazing

[@deityjc]

I think the difference is quite obvious. Dark is when the content is disturbing, while edgy is when the content is disturbing only to be disturbing. There's no reason other than 'because it's cool.' They can both push boundaries, it's all about the intent, purpose, and usage of the terms.

[@dark_star2497]

the thing is about eminence in shadow is that it is trying to be edgy painfully so and it makes fun of that and uses it for satire.

[@ANIMATRIX0110]

The thumbnail kicks ass.

[@jaffarebellion292]

The line between dark and edgy for me is that edgy stories are all dark, all the time, almost begging you to find them "cool", while dark stories sprinkle in moments of hope, warmth, and levity to keep you invested. Dark stories often have a point to make, and all that horror and despair is leading toward something, rather than just aimlessly vomiting shock value at the audience. For example, Berserk is dark, while The Boys is edgy.

[@yasininn76]

Berserk has people fucked by donkeys, it's 100% shock value, it's the absolute proof of edgyness being a thing

[@jaffarebellion292]

@yasininn76 Berserk puts pure evil on full display in all its horror. It's what makes the moments of hope, peace, and kindness all the more meaningful. So respectfully, I don't agree that it's just shock value. It's meant to set a tone that gets you used to the darkness and depravity, so that when you see moments like Guts stopping on the beach to simply put Shierke's hat back on her head after she lost it, it stays with you. Is your chosen example shocking? Yes, but it's purposeful. It serves the tone of the story, and is consistent with the prior behavior of demons in the setting. Also, it was a horse.

[@Konan43316]

The thing with berserk is the fact that the edginess isn’t without purpose. It is a dark, disgusting world and the plot is the story of how guts tries to find hope and peace in spite of losing everything. While I do believe that Miura took it way too far at times, he even admitted that he did, he did give the characters believable personalities and gave the series an underlying sense of hope on the horizon. It is a good story with well written characters. But the unbridled edginess can definitely be contributed to it’s age.

[@juancruzcortes6811]

Clearly you haven't read The Boys. Precisely the comic book (contrary to the show) has a lot to say about hope and love. It explores in deep the relathionship between Hughie and Annie, how these two flawed humans try to get out from the savage violence of a sadistic universe. You see how two brutal assasins (Frenchie and The Female) are two innocent broken souls that really care about not falling into darkness. How Butcher was saved from the abism by his wife, and how this lost corrupted him into a monster. But he still can cry and trust Hughie like his little brother, cause it's the only one that could stop him before it`s to late. I'm tired of so many people talking only about the grotesque part of this work when there's plenty of topics trully emotional at the work of Ennis.

[@jaffarebellion292]

@juancruzcortes6811 I'll concede that the comics may be better. I haven't read them, and I did enjoy Garth Ennis's Punisher run. The show however, is pure shock-value slop with nothing of value to say that isn't said better by other stories.

[@The_Thunderous_Gecko]

3:54 oh man oh God bro didn't even censor that 😢

[@bribenyt3027]

I just failed nnn

[@The_Thunderous_Gecko]

@ eh?

[@Bellboengv22osprey]

Bro is scared of tits

[@Dimitris802]

Eminence in Shadow is a fckin comedy. It parodies the whole "Edgy protagonist" trope. Damn, you did NOT do research.

[@hydroneeon119]

Dark vs Edgy comes down to context and other factors, really. Dark in itself (in my opinion) is just putting the negatively viewed factors of life into a piece of something else. Edgy, (in my opinion), is excessive use of dark topics or things without clear justification. If you ask a stranger about a picture of Guts in the Berserk Armor, 90% chance they will say it's edgy, ask a Berserk fan and they will say it's dark. Why? Because what Guts does or what happens in the manga is well reasoned and justified by the plot and storyline. Just like giving a new, fleshed out character a scythe. Plainly, it will be seen as edgy, though if you give that character a reason as to why they use the scythe and what are the circumstances of why a scythe and not something else, it's dark and cool. I actually asked myself a similar question, that being why are Epic/Cool things sometimes... cringe. My conclusion is, what I stated before, the context. A high pitched fast paced song out of nowhere is plain cringe, it changes when you connect to it emotionally. So, TL;DR : It comes down to the context and what justifies it. If it can be justified by what the character has been through/decisions, then it's dark. If the skulls, bodies, scary things are used excessively just for the sake of it, it's edgy.

[@Mr_Dandy_Lion]

Oh no he didn’t realize that Eminence In Shadow is a comedy…

[@TheNextRenegadeGaming]

>See's Parody Of Genre >Looks Inside >Just The Genre

[@Retr0Duck]

This is such an awful defense. You can have a comedy without coming off as cringe and edgy

[@Otgel]

​@@Retr0Duckthe main character isn't an edge lord, he literally thinks that it's all a dream or something iirc, and is just role-playing his fantasies. It just so happens that it's very real, he just is so overpowered, he hasn't been hit by reality yet. I mean.... The reason for half of his abilities is just because that's the coolest thing he could come up with at that moment. Before he died or whatever, didn't he literally try to stop a kidnapping with a crowbar because it was on his bucket list or something?

[@Otgel]

He is also a bit unhinged because he gets sent back to an apocalyptic version of his reality, and he still doesn't take it seriously.

[@redgraves4030]

​@@Otgelthat all sounds edgy af

[@justinn8541akaDrPokemon]

To be fair on Eminence in Shadows, it's edgy because the character wants to be edgy.

[@good-sofa]

I think that usually something can be dark and funny at the same time(Tim Burton is a nice example of that), but edgy is either unfunny or funny unintentionally

[@IchigoShinagami]

Wouldn't Eminence in Shadow kinda escape the qualification, because it's edgy on purpose, as a comedy.

[@good-sofa]

@@IchigoShinagami I'd say that's a bit off the scale at this point, it's basically funny through absurd escalation from what you're saying

[@joaovictorpessoaqueiroz4783]

This video made me remember of another one called " how to ( not) write an edgy character" on the commander Cassius's channel, just because they didn't bother to differentiate between the concept of "dark" and "edgy",and started to shit on the character of Reaper from overwatch just because the game makes him look too goofy sometimes, and because of that, he's is a bad exemple of an "edgy character" , as if the concept of edgy wouldn't allow a comedic tone to even be possible. Their lack of theoretical rigor makes me apreciate your vídeo so much more! ❤

[@purplehaze2358]

Honestly, if you ask me, "edgy" can be defined simply as "dark without reason". In other words, being dark for its own sake with nothing to say or do with that darkness.

[@good-sofa]

7:53 since the hands didn't move I think it's safe to assume that he was clapping with his cheeks

[@carlosdeandres4774]

Quick coment about the eminence in the shadow: it's meant (if I'm not wrong) to be a parody of the cool edgy badass mc. They just took the guy (who is literally an edgy stuff obsessed teenager) and made him into that. I've been able to really enjoy it by just not taking it as a serious plot, *but* that's just my opinion.

[@potato3018]

Here's a simpler basis Edgy has the "cool" thing going on while dark is just depression

[@Noimnotathing]

fantastic video. very entertaining. Makes me think about other stories. Its also helping me define current DND ideas.

[@Prosto-Ban]

Make a dungeon out of baby cement!

[@arthurpprado]

You know what's funny? Shadow the Hedgehog as a character has been the face of gratuitous edge for years and his solo game even made things worse, Sonic Team seems to be making an effort to change that, as of late. They've been releasing a small series of animations as promotional material for Sonic X Shadow Generations, which focuses on Shadow's past and they've done a pretty good job at making him a more emotional and sympathetic character. It gives a lot of weight to the tragedy of his origins, the loss of the one person he was supposed to save and his insecurities

[@Terminator1O1]

That transition was incredible bro

[@crimsonzone8984]

The problem with Shadow the Hedgehog is its godawful localization. Not the story itself.

[@ChildNightmare]

As someone who just finished watching eminence in shadow season 1 it's written that way intentionally it purposefully turns everything up to 11 its funny as fuck and edgy as fuck but the edge is in such an over the top style I can't help but say "fuck yeah" because of how much better at it shadow is then every other show thats trying too hard to be a self indulgent power fantasy

[@PedroCastro-vn8qg]

Edgyness is the aesthetic of being dark, not the substance, usually used for shock value or to make a character cool. Lil Darkie is edgy, Swans is dark. Mr. Pickle is edgy, BoJack Horseman is dark. Hellsing Ultimate is edgy, Devilman Crybaby is dark. Berzerk is both XD, it goes from edgy to dark after a few chapters.

[@IchigoShinagami]

I would say Tokyo Ghoul is both, with more edgyness in the first manga and a bit less in the sequel.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

Devilman crybaby is edgy, it starts dark but then devolves into pure edge.

[@PedroCastro-vn8qg]

@@IchigoShinagami I Watched the first and second season, it has definitely alot of edge, but also some deeper themes. So it's not just pure edge.

[@PedroCastro-vn8qg]

@@anitaremenarova6662 I completely disagree, that anime left me f up for 2 days after I finished watching it.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

@@PedroCastro-vn8qg If you've never seen violence like that I can understand why but as someone desensitized to it the whole thing just becomes really bland towards the end.

[@cringecande_9352]

This is a really cool video. I like how it's like a convo between to friends that's entertaining to me

[@munchmastermedia6943]

Edgy is trying too hard to be dark.

[@artOVtrolling]

It’s basically a matter of genuine vs tacky.

[@Christian-o8t9n]

0:51 Is there a way to not spend a penny all in one place? If so, I would like to hear about it.

[@josuelmunendez6687]

Maybe go to a country where a penny is actually worth a lot, enough not to spend it in one place

[@forgthefrog77]

zimbabwe stock market

[@GMilkMan]

Depending on how it is aged, milk can turn into cheese or sour cream. However, it could also be spoiled and undrinkable, like how media can change depending on how it is viewed.

[@DinosaurBoy04]

I think a good example of bad edginess is the original the boys comics. Everything about the comics is just shock value

[@anarchemy7905]

Wimp

[@xMoDzProductions]

Played for comedic shock though. It was absurdity. It wasn’t meant to be taken seriously

[@DinosaurBoy04]

@@xMoDzProductions I do get that but it can be a bit much at times. yes it's for comedic shock but it just falls short for me. though that's my personal opinion.

[@gamemax1049]

​@@DinosaurBoy04Everything that Garth Ennis makes it's just the prime example of Edgy but bad really, really BAD. Or i have to remind you that Crossed exists?. He's the Edgelord Supreme, and honestly i don't how the guy keeps his job in the Comic industry

[@deadlychicken1458]

2003 baby. I basically reemember being young enough to see things phase outz but old enough to still enjoy everything.

[@BrendanKOD]

Good vs bad edge is the difference between a knife and a pizza cutter. Knives have an edge and a point, pizza cutters are all edge with no point.

[@DevLanket]

Great stuff! Your writing and editing has done wonders here.

[@Xulli-Vis-Karos]

On that topic of Isekai 7:33 Brutal Legend is an example of an actually good Isekai. Also a surprising example of a Western Isekai. I mean think about it a lil. Dude is in a world that feels has left him behind. He's good at what he does, but what he does isn't appreciated or cared for. He dies in the process of saving someone else He wakes up to find he's in a world that's perfect for him in every way, with his unique skill-set giving him chance to belong somewhere again.

[@Hector-b3s7l]

I have never heard Narnia being labeled as an Isekai but it you're so right.

[@bismuth7398]

I think Terry Pratchett gave the best explanation for why people don't like "edgy" media as you guys defined it. "Why does the third of the three brothers, who shares his food with the old woman in the wood, go on to become king of the country? Why does James Bond manage to disarm the nuclear bomb a few seconds before it goes off rather than, as it were, a few seconds afterwards?" "Because a universe where that did not happen would be a dark and hostile place. Let there be goblin hordes, let there be terrible environmental threats, let there be giant mutated slugs if you really must, but let there also be HOPE. It may be a grim, thin hope, an Arthurian sword at sunset, but _let us know that we do not live in vain."_

[@dwfan91-]

This video is amazing, thank you so much for this

[@ediakin4993]

Shadow the hedgehog from SA2: Dark Shadow the hedgehog from STH2005: Edgy

[@pixels_per_minute]

Calling something 'dark' usually means the theme or tone of it makes you feel a certain way. A sens of dread, fear, or terror, if you will. I really don't know what 'edgy' is meant to mean, but to me, it seems like it's usually tied to being over the top, different, offensive, and/or on the very fine "edge" of normality. Going against what's largely acceptable. Once you cross that line, however, you're probably entering the realm of what people could consider banable or even illegal material.

[@RKsivasuryahi]

here is a next idea for a video "defining video game as art"

[@Sanjiluv]

peepeepoopoo

[@kuroyami9757]

I wasn't prepared for the Agony footage, how to unsee

[@slimey1099]

The way these guys juggled the topic of this video was fantastic and enthralling. Good work. You had my attention the whole way through.

[@twistedlegacy5942]

Edgie describes something that relies soley on its dark tone/theme to interest others. Dark can have these tones/themes, but it is not soley defined by them. It is simply a part of the bigger picture. Being edgy does not necessarily mean bad, it simply means it lacks broader depth. - Lets use your thumbnail as an example: the skeleton with the chain is edgy, its a simple if not iconic design for the brand. Its neat, but otherwise has nothing to offer. The monster with the knife however, its design is more abstract with those veins and the quality of its skin. It provokes a deeper dive into it and the possibilities at hand.

[@iknorn9494]

7:20 i mean it was made edgy on purpose its not meant to be taken seriously

[@Smol_Schan]

Dark is a confrontation of the negative aspects of life, often the aspects we are too scared to confront. It's a mature exploration into the nature of the human experince. Edgy is an attempt to seem cool from callousness to suffering, from expressing dark thoughts. Edgy is a 14 year old's view on maturity, believing that sex, drugs, murder, violence, and suffering, the things that were off limits as children, are what qualifies one as being an adult, when in reality, true maturity comes from a sober consideration of reality.

[@PERSONII3331PERSONIIEVER]

agree