When Does Difficulty Become Artificial?

From Elden Ring Shadow of the Erdtree to Dark Souls, to Monster Hunter, to even RPGs like Dragon Quest, the term "Artificial Difficulty" is thrown around a lot. I finally got around to fighting Fatalis and I wanted to talk about this boss with the context of artificial difficulty.
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[@carlosescamilla5260]

To anybody wondering why the hell this quest has a 30 min timer instead of 50 it's because in Monster Hunter 1 (2004) where fatalis was the final online boss battle, there was a mechanic in place where the dragon would flee if you did enough damage but no enough to kill him, this was because in those times final bosses where meant to be hunted by a group of four and had a fixed gargantuar health pool meant for those 4 players, well if they flee the next time you fought them they would come back with the remaining health and also any broken body part that you managed to break in your last attempt, guess Capcom forgot about this last part lol

[@kphuts815]

@@carlosescamilla5260 I remember them doing a similar thing with yian garuga in mhf1 he had a 15 mins timer and damage was kept each run. I remember it took me around 4-6 runs to kill him for his armour.

[@wigglerlesbian]

sieges exist but yeah they seemed to have "reinvented the wheel" and had it worse.

[@pandamoniumsan]

fascinating

[@casedistorted]

Capcom forgetting about basic things seems like a real Capcom move, they screw up the most basic and easy things to fix sometimes. Like ultrawide in their pc ports.. Or an FOV slider.

[@danielnaumov7974]

My Headcanon is that as we fight Fatalis in MHW:IB the Flames are getting hotter and hotter so much that Schloss Schrade becomes unbearably hot that we need to leave after 30min.

[@thmistrapillay1811]

Just saw the title & the thumbnail and here's my answer: Difficulty becomes artificial when the complexity & engagement of the enemy is no longer the force pushing the player to be better, but is rather the very high(sometimes unavoidable) damage along with possibly too much health. This causes the players to beat the enemy via pure war of attrition rather than by purposeful adaptation

[@mhswoocer]

Good answer!

[@ska187]

100% the correct answer. When the enemy becomes a damage sponge with the devs just increasing the numbers on their resistances or damage or hp then it’s artificial

[@jameslough6329]

Couldn’t have said it better myself 👍

[@WarriorCicada]

This is why I can play Souls and MH, but dislike playing other games on "hard" because it becomes annoying ​@@ska187

[@burstspark5311]

Pretty much just world Fatalis and the risk & reward system is fair and world Kushala roaring then attacking before you recover is unfair

[@spilleraaron4748]

For me artificial difficulty is when the game breaks established rules, changes things that have been uniform, or makes things harder first arbitrary reasons like disabling core mechanics or giving an asinine time limit or instant kill mechanic that can rob a player of a victory for no other reason aside from “because I said so”

[@Rat_Fบcker]

it's so wierd when they give you 40% less time to defeat strongest monster they trippin fr

[@KitsuneYojimbo]

Pokémon Stadium and Yu-Gi-Oh Forbidden Memories: *back away slowly*

[@Ashen_Night116]

@@Rat_Fบcker It's entirely weirder because it's literally just doing the MH1 thing where you have 30 minutes to kill the monster, and if you don't it just runs away and returns with all the broken parts you gave it and all the HP you took away from it, and was meant to be fought with 4 players. Crapcom essentially forgot the most important part of that.

[@TheDreamAnimus]

That's why I hate the FF7 remake trilogy's hard mode. They take away item use, something that been a core mechanic from the first fucking game, and also rest points dont restore your hp/mp. And the cherry on top is that THERE IS PROGRESSION LOCKED BEHIND IT! Not story progression, it's stat progression but still. I shouldn't have to bang my head against a wall for hours to max out my stats. In fact, I'd argue that maxing stats should be a good thing to do before taking on a challenging difficulty

[@viktorgabriel2554]

@@Rat_Fบcker the final fight designed for you to have mastered the game and have all the equipment in you would ever need hell they even give you the weapons that counter him in the fight before him

[@Uno_Hunter]

Honestly, this was perfectly explained. It took me 40 plus carts for me to finally solo Fatalis. And now I can solo it with Defender weapons just because I simply gotten much better than I was 4 years ago.

[@mhswoocer]

I'm glad you mention that timeline actually, since originally when I planned to write this script it was going to be *much* more negative lol. However I thought "ya know, it really wouldn't be fair to write this considering I've only beaten the monster 2 or 3 times, and without even having proper endgame gear so lemme see what the fight is like if I have full fatalis and weapons augmented a bit" and I'm really glad I did since in doing so not only did I get a much better understanding of the fight, but I also just got a whole lot better at it! It's crazy how much more fun this fight becomes as you improve

[@Sunaki1000]

hi uno

[@boangsiate7701]

MHW:IB is my first MH game. Played it on 2019 and I admit, I use cheats just to solo World and Iceborne content. My dad bought me a NSW since it's pandemic that time and I don't have a pc. Played MHGU and MHR and got very good at it. I replayed MHW and I soloed all my hunts up to Fatalis using only defender armor and weapon. There really is no such thing as hard games, you just try and try and familiarize yourself to the mechanics. That's why I just roll my eyes whenever a veteran would say "waaah monster hunter is so easy now" like bro ofc it would be easy, you've been playing the game for almost a decade. Some of my friends started playing MH when they ported Rise on to pc and I watched them get bodied by great izuchi lol.

[@LeetTron5000]

@@boangsiate7701 they are veterans because they have a lot more hours and knowledge than you. Thats why they are right when they say the game has gotten easier. You have no idea what they are comparing to. Go back and beat every hunt in mhfu then you can have 1 piece of what they are using as relative judgement. No cheats allowed you filthy casual.

[@MountainDewIdaho]

@@LeetTron5000​​⁠​⁠​⁠dude I’ve been playing since freedom 1 on the psp and am currently on 4U in my 6th full playthrough of the games, so I feel like I am what you’re calling a veteran. I have no issues with people using cheats on their first solo playthrough of a game. It’s a hard game series. Especially if it’s your first time playing something like it. If they’re cheating in multiplayer using one shots or something like that then it’s an issue, but that’s pretty rare. They also said they went back and implied they beat it normally after learning more about the games and getting better in gu and rise. And GU isn’t one of the easiest games at least by endgame. I think the most harmful people for this community are ones like you attacking someone for lnot being good enough” and not having played the games you played. Let people play how they want if they’re doing it solo. I have a friend who doesn’t like the endgame material grind so he has a mod to change the drop rates so there are less trash gems. I have another who just edits his save and adds them, also increasing his rank so he doesn’t have to grind the guiding lands to fight ruiner. Not everyone has the time to no life these games and ultimately they’re not hurting anyone other than themselves with that hacking in of decos and ranks.

[@Daylongs]

10:30 that one shot binder hitting the vigorwasp is the most painful part of the video

[@mhswoocer]

oh wow... I just realized *that's* why it didn't bind. That's... that's rough LMAO

[@hasten4435]

The amount of sonic gongs that flinch a monster at a bad time is astounding. Turns a perfectly good clutch claw window into a insta mantle shred, insta pin and into a one shot. Thanks AT Velkhana.

[@falenchan7999]

@@hasten4435 this is why I dont bring palicos

[@imsirnootnoot]

It would make the most manlius of hunter cry

[@BirdMoose]

I think a big problem with MHW's later fights is that they unlock way too early. You fight the Icebotne DLC final boss and then are thrown against monsters right away designed for the players who have been grinding post-game content for weeks or months as originally these monsters were released 1 by 1. Fatalis and Alatreon feel like they should be minimum MR 100 monsters, but you can fight them before you have that skill and equipment which makes many players bounce off them saltily.

[@astalos342]

Best point I've seen brought up so far in these comments. Fatalis is far and away my absolute favorite fight in Iceborne, yet had I not played this game since day one, and perhaps picked it post Fatalis update, my opinion may have been different. I can 100% see how plenty of, fresh out of shara and the guiding lands, not even to ruiner yet, fresh fifth fleeters eagerly fighting one or both of the black dragons, and getting their teeth kicked in so hard they quit. However closed of a mindset that may be, I'd understand why to a point. I feel like it should at the very least MR 125 and 150 for alat and fatty, that gives players some REAL time to break into the endgame and hone themselves and their gear.

[@taragnor]

Personally I liked knowing what I was preparing for in the endgame. I gave up on MH Rise because it just turned into a bunch of endgame grind and there wasn't an obstacle I felt I was readying myself to deal with.

[@sauceinmyface9302]

I personally like that they're unlocked so early. They act as walls so you know what challenges you cannot overcome, encouraging you to go back out into the rest of the game to get what you need. Go earn some decorations, new armor and weaponsets, augments, maybe some missing mantles, farm some strong consumables. However, for me, this does come with some hindsight because I played after the last patch of the game. Maybe people expect to be able to beat new bosses the day of release? Idk.

[@JGuy97]

They definitely should be tackled after MR100, but I understand why they unlock them immediately. The title updates are meant to entice people to return to or even pick up the game, and those same people are less likely to stick around if they’re met with a MR100 requirement to see the new monster they’re excited for.

[@dahlobsterxd6763]

It is indeed too easy. The 1st alatreon fight isn't required Only the cutscene is Leave the quest and obtain the 2nd fight for some reason Beat that 2nd one with or without elemental weapons it doesn't matter it only has about 1/4 of its max hp. It should be dead before or just a little after 1 judgment. Then you have fatalis. No augments at all cause whoops I'm not mr100 to have the def minimum I need for fatalis

[@NANIXON1998]

Artificial difficulty is when you're punished in a way that pretty much feels like there's no lesson. When you beat a boss not because you got better, but because you got lucky.

[@Alloveck]

I agree that beating a boss simply due to beating your head against the wall until you finally got lucky isn't meaningful or satisfying or a good type of challenge. But at the same time, if a game has any random elements at all, then increasing difficulty past a certain point inevitably increases the odds that luck will be what finally wins it. The harder a boss is, the less the player is in control, and the less control a player has, the less the player is able to offset the influence of luck alone, which is otherwise a constant. Furthermore, the harder a boss is, the more tries it takes, and the more time you roll the dice, the more chances you have to get that lucky roll. Quite honestly, I'd say that almost every time I've EVER finally beaten a boss after say, twenty or more tries, if not less, it has been luck that ultimately made the difference, not increased skill. I know that because I consciously noticed that the boss just randomly didn't use their worst moves as many times that time, or I button mashed parries at just the right time through sheer blind luck, etc, and if that wasn't enough, I've proved that by refighting the boss after winning on try 37 and finding that I'm once again doing no better than the last 20 tries. And on the rare occasion it wasn't sheer luck that made the difference, it still wasn't so much that my own personal skill improved, as that I simply memorized the boss's moves enough or noticed some exploitable quirk to its AI, that meant my current otherwise insufficient skill level could get the job done with the very cheap added benefit of knowing exactly where to stand where the hit detection breaks for some reason, or finally noticed that a grab attack never, ever follows a fireball. And personally, I don't think that simple memorization of move sets or level layouts has ever been a legitimate or meaningful test of skill. So this is all to say that I truly believe that in order for a boss to be a proper, meaningful test of raw skill, rather than luck and/or very specific memorization (that could never be justified in-story since your character shouldn't be getting multiple tries,) bosses should never go past a certain level of difficulty or total expected tries. A true, meaningful victory is the one that comes from properly reacting on the fly because you've gotten that good, not from simply trying until you get lucky, or replacing/supplementing legit skill with knowing exactly what the boss will do, and the more tries you take, the more likely the latter two things are what will make the difference instead of real skill. Which means that yes, I feel like the proper game design job of bosses isn't training, or otherwise making you better. Bosses should be about testing the skills you should have ALREADY developed. You should get good enough to beat the boss by fighting the common enemies in the preceding area, and as long as you did that, the boss itself, as long as it's properly balanced, should take only a few tries at most. Ideally only one. Bosses should be like the final test at the end of a class: there only to provide confirmation of the learning that was intended to have already happened on the way there, not a teaching point in and of themselves. Though I will make a small exception for bosses that appear multiple times, getting more difficult each time. In that case, it is okay to expect you to learn a thing or two in the fight itself, because that experience should then build for the next time when the boss is tougher/uses more moves/etc. Like with common enemies that show up over and over, training actually applies to multi-encounter bosses since there are future battles to apply that specific training to. (That's why I think recycling bosses is actually a good thing, it makes them skill-building stepping stones instead of hard pass/fail only walls.) Though even then, the final encounter with a boss should still follow the previous rules of being a skill check only.

[@NihongoWakannai]

​@@Alloveck a boss having a "worst move" is bad design. That's why malenia is so bad because she has one singular move that is way harder than her others so the luck of how much she uses that one move plays a large factor in your success. If the difficulty of all the moves is relatively equal then there is less luck involved and the fight overall feels more enjoyable and balanced. It always feels bad to get killed by the one super hard attack and then have to redo all the easy attacks at the start of the fight just to get back to the one hard one.

[@Alloveck]

@@NihongoWakannai In regard to your last point, I'd say that in a larger sense, any time games make you redo a bunch of easy stuff just to retry the only part that actually gives you problems is bad design. A classic example is "Do X perfectly 100 times in a row," where it gradually gets harder and only the last, say, 20 times are where you actually start screwing up at all. So redoing the first 80 rounds that aren't a problem proves nothing you didn't prove the first time you passed the first 80 rounds, making them a pointless waste of time on the way to the actually meaningful challenge. And yeah, that somewhat applies to multi-phase bosses too, but they're complicated by variable resources like HP and MP and so on being a factor, meaning that redoing early easy phases can still be relevant because doing them even better next time means you go into the hard phase with more HP, heal potions left, etc. But yeah, if you could theoretically do the early phases perfectly anyway, then there's definitely no point in redoing them just to retry the final phase. More on topic though, I agree: Waterfowl Dance alone really is 95% of Malenia's effective challenge right there, and that's just not good design. The other 4% is knowing not to get Scarlet Aeonia nuked in the second phase, but as damaging as it is, its so easy to deal with once you've seen it even once that it's only 4% of her challenge. Still not cool that it's an attack that basically requires preemptive positioning to successfully avoid though, and thus is nearly impossible to avoid if you haven't already experienced it once to know a massive AoE you can't simply dodge roll out of like usual is coming. Also, the first one is guaranteed after the phase change, so its luck factor is reduced. But while you're very right that having one randomly used, outstanding super attack is basically intentionally making luck a factor, I'd say that it's a bad thing even regardless of luck. Like you said, a severely imbalanced move set just makes the rest of the fight seem like a waste of time. If the point of Malenia is dealing with her signature move, then just cut to the chase and have her do nothing but Waterfowl dance, since that's clearly the only real test or challenge there anyway. That one attack is on such a different level from everything else that you can't even make the argument that the lesser attacks function as warmups or training to help ready the player for when she finally busts out her best attack, so the rest of her moveset truly is pointless padding. Just halve her HP to compensate and go all in on Waterfowl Dance. And finally, as far as random boss luck goes, singular "worst attacks" not coming up are only one example of many. There's also attacks that aren't clearly worse on their own, but extremely difficult to deal with for positioning reasons if the boss randomly chooses them both back to back, so a lucky win would be the boss AI simply rarely if ever doing the worst possible sequence of attacks. If a stamina system is involved, and boss AI has randomness to how often it attacks, or the amount of stamina needed to dodge/block/outrun attacks varies, you can get lucky by the boss randomly giving you breathing room between attacks more than usual, or never stringing together high-stamina attacks back to back. Maybe level geometry makes certain attacks more or less difficult to deal with in certain boss arena locations and hey, what luck, the boss consistently only did its big AoE fire breath when you were already near cover. Or got you in a tight spot but then randomly didn't do the melee combo that's nearly impossible to dodge without some open space. Point is, there are many, MANY ways that boss design can make luck a factor, so many that I'd say it's basically inevitable. Which is why I say that luck ultimately being the deciding factor gets closer to inevitable the more tries a boss battle takes, and therefore bosses shouldn't be designed so that a lot of tries are expected to begin with. Every try is another chance for the luck factors to finally come through instead of skill.

[@Kingdramana]

Agreed fully here

[@truekurayami]

Beating a boss because you got lucky instead of just getting better can feel good in certain situations. A desperate fight that left you at the edge of death and improvement you one because you just happened to get the killing blow to land first can be such a rush as it confirms you can do it, now you just need to work on making it consistent.

[@flappyflans1770]

OK IM SORRY BUT I NEED TO COMPLAIN. Fatalis has three different chomp attacks. A quick chomp, a fire chomp, and a charge chomp. ONLY THE CHARGE CHOMP HAS A HITBOX THAT COVERS THE BODY, but you used forage of ALL THREE CHOMPS when discussing how to avoid the fire chomp!!!!! So incredibly misinforming!!!! Other than that great vid

[@ZCI5250]

0:33 he missed the hidden option: dodging upwards insect glaivers stay winning

[@caliginousmoira8565]

i still get hit lol the game hates me

[@venom_ross]

Who needs to dodge when you have a shield? God I love gun lance

[@arcmen2275]

A friend of mine got lock out of the gate when fatalis does the 2nd sea of fire attack and he survived by flying over the top.

[@JGuy97]

Monster Hunter Rise has entered the chat.

[@BigBoyScout]

Insect Glaive Master Race!

[@SkullivanBones]

I hate the gaming nomenclature where the second someone suggests a boss might be overtuned in a game they are immediately met with hordes of people just telling them to get gud and they're stupid. It's cancerous and had always annoyed me.

[@alessandroemirfranciosi1453]

They r the 99% but we not 🎉 so be happy to not be a (favourite offence) 😊

[@crazymumbo]

The one bit that annoys me most is when they then suggest that you must be a newcomer to the series and therefore you just "don't understand" the game's design. But to me, it's actually the opposite. I have such strong feelings because I've played and enjoyed a game series for so long, that I feel like such strange difficulty is going against the series' previous ideas of difficulty.

[@Hugolaste]

Okay i'll play devil's advocate a little here. Because while i agree that what you say is true, i'll also say that most of the time, the solution against the boss is just that: getting better. I didn't watch the video in it's entirety yet, but fatalis IS supposed to be challenging. He is, and was always (at least in the games he appeared in) the final boss, and he was always the ultimate test for you, the hunter. For example, in mhfu, the white fatalis gets an armor that makes all attack bounce, an increase in attack and defense when at 50% hp. This armor gets only removed when it's at 20% hp. Is that a bit much? Maybe, but he is also doable with a few tries and the correct equipment. Same with alatreon in world. Is he hard? Yeah of course, the horn breaks and elemental threshold forces you to be aggressive all the time, while he can two shot you at full health, and even if you pass the elem. Threshold you can still faint during the judgement if you mess up your heal timing. But he is also very easy to read, and has a lot of openings to allow for some quick hits. And building an elemental build is not that bad as you are not forced to do the safi hunt (contrary to what i could read on the net) to have a decent build. Those are hard encounters sure. And they can seem like absurd increase in difficulty, and require a lot more preparation time than the rest of the roster, but two things: like I said, it's the culmination of the game, the ultimate skillcheck to everything you've learn until that very moment, the time to put to use everything you've learnt to master. And second, the satisfaction you get after you beat them is unrivalled. You finally overcame the wall. You did it, and only with your own skill

[@Azulapus]

It's normally people who are trolls and couldn't care less about anyone else's success then themselves

[@thenewseorarek9625]

​@@Hugolaste then i'll play devils advocate for your devilish avocation. The "solution" is ALWAYS to "get better". Boss does too much damage? Get good enough to never get hit. Boss has terribly mapped hitboxes? Get good enough to never be in a bad position. Boss has too much hp? Get good enough to hit him more. Obviously, if you're good enough you can beat anything at all. But that doesnt excuse poor design. "Erm, actually you just need to get good enough to not get hit!" Doesnt make up for a boss having a hitbox in the place that the visuals of the attack arent. Just because its possible to beat something by getting good enough doesnt mean that ascension of skill should be necessary, nor does it mean developers should just be able to ignore quality control because they have a ton of dick riders that will hard defend their poor decisions with copious amounts of "git gud"s instead of actually looking into other players complaints to see if they have some merit. Getting good should definitely be a large factor in a player beating a boss. But that doesnt mean the primary hurdles of that boss to overcome can just be at best cringe, at worst dogshit, issues like a timer running out or poor hitboxes. I agree that fatalis is a great final boss of world, but the amount of dogshit combined in it means that when i finally solo it, i wont feel elation or happiness, im going to feel relief thay i wont have to do it again

[@thebapslaps]

"Get good" is a shallow answer to those struggling with the possible. It ignores the process many need to learn by simply aggrevating said person instead of helping. Artifical Difficulty is the buzz word way of saying something isn't hard, but unfair. Which ignores the potential skill ceiling or other possible options that may not have been considered. Furthermore can be used as a slap on "everyone finds this hard, so it's unfair" way of decrediting what may be genuinely good game design. Both by themselves ignore the inherit nuances that video game difficulty or game design is.

[@pixelbro99]

Imagine your marriage counselor just telling you to "get good." 💀 lol 😂

[@aokyoutsuki7744]

"Get good" is truly now meant to be an insult, its short n straight, so theres no point trying to gain any positive insight from that remark cuz in most cases its steeped in negativity or apathy Either position if further replied to would follow up with a "erm who asked" for a double wammy

[@ElsaChan597]

@@pixelbro99 and then you complain back to the counselor saying that "this marriage has artificial difficulty"

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

In my day git gud was said to people who refuse advice and plug their ears saying x/y is impossible or artifical difficulty.

[@viktorgabriel2554]

Artificial difficulty is 100% a thing used way to much in many modern video games an extremely high health pool for instance is artificial difficulty since the devs didnt need to give the target 700 times the hp of other enemies like in Borderland games so it forcefully extending a battle that should last a few minutes to last 30 minutes to an hour or how many games whit resources just give the AI a passive higher income then the player this is not normal difficulty this is artificially inflated you can counter play AI just gets more income

[@kingsavage2272]

If I said rent is too expensive and you say "Make more money" my blood will boil

[@Darkwater1886]

You can actually continually dive the cone attack. If your able to get the timing right you can make it with enough health/defense.

[@jameslough6329]

Facts. Superman dives are SO underrated in the Monster Hunter games. A lot of people only use them to dodge a select few attacks because they think the recovery time makes them too vulnerable to use the dive consistently. But the recovery actually isn't as long as it looks and using Superman dives can make a lot of monsters MUCH more manageable to defeat.

[@Oniichan880]

If executed perfectly you can avoid all damage Realistically you'll take like 2 ticks of damage which is like a third/half of ur HP

[@paulkocherhans608]

The cone isn't really too bad, if your close, it's actually a really good damage opportunity, and if your near a pillar, they block it. If you do get caught in the open with max health, you can spam dice to survive. The only time this move is a garuntees cart, is if your missing health, AND far from the monster, AND not near a pillar....at that point, it's kinda your fault, every time I have died to it, it's been my dumb xD

[@paulkocherhans608]

I should add too, I hunted with a group, and once we got into the swing, we went 15+ hunts without a single cart, not just no fails, no carts.... If there really were unavoidable tng deaths, we would have had some, but everything is avoidable, not easily avoidable, but avoidable.

[@snowcloudshinobi]

@@jameslough6329 the one prolonged invincibility move every player has access to by default is absolutely not underrated in any meaning of the word. how often you use the dive is influenced by how quickly you can sheathe your choice of weapon.

[@lepyrolink182]

Just level ADP, bro. Edit: wait, wrong game.

[@vazazell5967]

Just use evade window and evade extender. Which is literally adp

[@maybayV2]

I just did the data bosses for KH2, and this really hits. While they were hard, most of them were pretty fair. You just had to know how to block for most of them. And then you f*uck*ing have Demyxs' DM (desperation move.) He comes with a timer where you have to kill 99 water clones in 30 seconds. This happens at the end of the fight. You can not kill him until he does it. If you don't kill them all on time, you just lose. While the rest of the fight is fairly easy. dAnCe WaTeR dAnCe

[@Xenos369]

Im a massive fatalis fan and I will die on the hill that Fatty is one of the best bossfights ever. However I do agree with some of your points. Some of his hitboxes are janky especially the tail slam, quick bite, and his flame sweep (i get damaged before fire hits me???). I guess its just personal tolerance. The music, buildup and spectacle along with a tough fight just makes everything else feel fantastic tho, despite the flaws. I really felt like I was fighting the OG Black Dragon, so imo the difficulty felt justified. Its quite fascinating how everyone has such different opinions on the same thing

[@mhswoocer]

I think all in all I've grown to like the boss quite a lot. It's not my favorite boss but it holds a very special place in my heart not only for the reasons I went over in the video, but just for the context of it all. Feels really good to finally have this guy crossed off the list of hard bosses I have to beat lol

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

Also, the timer is great imo. You dont just get scrape by, you will need to know him in and out to beat the clock to the finish. Optimise your dps, get more staggers, avoid damage etc.

[@werk62]

I like Safi'jiiva the most.

[@RyChu05_Pleasing05]

this. he was supposed to be a difficult fight.

[@alenezi989a3]

I've yet to play a game where hit boxes are perfect. Janky hit boxes are in every video game ever made. And are especially prevalent with huge 3d models. Fatalis hit boxes are fine they're not more janky than any other monster in the game. And MHW in general had pretty good hit boxes not perfect there's jank here and there but pretty good in general.

[@johnofwar0160]

The timer and HP pool also prohibit using any build that is not designed for maximized damage. Setting yourself up with a build using defense, regen, medicine, divine blessing etc. nearly guarantees you will be right up against the timer if not well past it. Part of what makes this game great is having all these skills and being able to create a build that best suits your personal playstyle.

[@valhalla1416]

Tbh Divine Blessing 5 with Gold Rathian is a common recommendation for Fatalis because it let's you play more aggressive since you can actually take multiple hits and be more greedy

[@KitsuneYojimbo]

And the problem is that bottlenecking a player into one playstyle is something that could be an issue. Why should I be forced to play these couple of builds just to be able to beat the game?

[@tyrusdalet]

@@KitsuneYojimbobecause you’re seeing Fatalis as “beating the game” instead of treating him as he is. A post-game challenge boss that is intended to be purely a challenge in exchange for the strongest gear in the game. You beat the game after Shara Ishvalda; everything after that is just challenges to push yourself further. You SHOULD have to adapt to the challenge, otherwise it’s not really a challenge is it?

[@MenrvaS]

Not true, i play 75% defensive skills and 25% offensive skills. Weakness Exploit, Critical Boost, Speed Eating, Divine Blessing, stun resist, and Health Boost, and only some evade window. First clear, 9th try solo only, was 28 min. I got 19 minutes with the same build in the 3rd clear. Defensive Skills are there to reduce your downtime, but if you are not aggressive enough, you will lose to time.

[@falcoon_f_zero9450]

That was also a thing Elden Ring kinda suffered from. A lot of the difficulty late in the game came from really bloated enemy and boss stats. And a lot of people got around it by switching to status builds, because they dealt percentage damage to enemies, instead of just flat damage. So they ended up being so much more powerful against foes with huge healthbars that it just bottlenecked a lot of character variety, despite being an RPG. Kind of a shame as there's so much character variety on paper but a lot of them end up hitting like a wet noodle at the late part of the game.

[@chowderdx]

My problem with "Get Good" or "Skill Issue" is that people never really say how to get better or resolve the skill issue. Because every single one of Fatalis' attacks are dogeable and the timer is doable, it's really hard as befitting a final boss, but it is possible. The problem comes from A: people not being specific in what the issue is. "This boss is bullshit! I can't dodge anything!" Instead of "This is some nonsense, how tf do I dodge his fireball hitbox?" And B: people being annoying online, say people suck without giving advice on how to not suck. Also, pre Fatalis gear isn't bad. Stuff like Safi and Raging Brachy etc is still really good dps. The problem is they take time to farm and Fatalis unlocks really early so 90 percent of people didn't have maxxed out pre Fatalis builds. So I honestly do think not beating Fatalis is a skill issue. Those are resolved by trying all you can to improve. I'm pretty sure no one beat Fatalis solo first try, sound to me like everyone had a skill issue and needed to get good. Doesn't mean that's a bad thing.

[@Rat_Fบcker]

doging isn't too bad I can dodge all of its move consistently the problem is breaking head part before it nuke you with blueflame

[@HowIin]

Just about every clip where he showcases a death in this video has a resolution I could clearly point out. I find this video to be undermined by a flawed foundation stemming from his perspective.

[@randomnobody660]

​@@HowIinlol what? Are you saying artificial difficulty only arises when it cannot be surpassed by perfect play? Otherwise what does not playing optimally in these clips have to do with anything?

[@manuelito1233]

Because the street is two ways, i can't tell someone how to improve because they "hitbox bs rahhh" i mean.. i'll answer "dodge the hitbox?" You're right in saying the skill issue sayers don't have a way to resolve the issue, but that's because it usually stems from being patient in learning, no way is anyone gonna admit they suck because they don't wanna put in the time.

[@dragoncat9153]

What about Alatreon? How do you switch weapon like 3 times in one fight for the elemental stuff? I've never understood that

[@lanzzallen2000]

If you think fatalis have an artificial difficulty then oh boy....try soloing extreme behemoth that mofo ain't artificial he's borderline bs

[@osirisavra1301]

Facts,day 1 hunters know the real pain of soloing extremoth and ancient Leshen.

[@JerkTheHuman]

extremoth tho wasnt really built for solo hunts it doesnt scale HP with solo/duo, so you have to basically put out as much DPS solo as 4 hunters. safi'jiiva on release/HR kulve taroth iirc werent scaled as well

[@lanzzallen2000]

@@JerkTheHuman doesn't matter if he's not meant for solo or not his moveset is just bs, and not to mention the damage check he'll just spam his one shot over and over again if you dont meet it even if you already carted and just entered the arena he'll do that immediately so that practically means you already lost despite having more chances left also I'm a ps user and I refuse to give money on that shty subscription so I have to beat everything solo...which I have except for that mofo

[@Mister_Taxman]

​@@lanzzallen2000 memories of Charybdis. Jesus christ

[@Amatsu_storm_approach]

​@@lanzzallen2000A clear example of a monster that would be EZ pezy if it wasn't for the BS conditions that includes its horrible fight.

[@tempest2794]

I remember fighting this boss 4 years ago when I was still new to monster hunter and getting really frustrated at it and eventually quit after 400 hours on that save file. 4 years later after playing all sorts of games, I came back after hearing about Wilds on a new save file but this time,it was different cause now I knew I had to prepare for these sorts of things so when I finally beat it,I screamed. It actually felt like 4 years of experience led up to this and now I absolutely love this boss cause it showed me that I've grown.

[@imagecko9997]

4 years ago… damn.

[@reallycantthinkofausername487]

​@@imagecko9997Feels like the Fatalis trailer came out yesterday...

[@serenity3157]

Never give up brother 💪

[@Sarkep667]

One thing you didn't mention is that you not only have the Evade Window skill but also the Evade Extender skill (which increases dodge distance). Because, as you mentioned, the size of a lot of Fatalis' attacks feel overtuned it helps you cover enough distance to get out of most of his attacks. Overall Fatalis is a great thematic final fight against the 'strongest monster' and also a good test of skill imo. But he does feel bullshit sometimes.

[@mhswoocer]

I used to never use evade extender but I started to in either sunbreak or rise (can't remember, I think it was sb) and I've never looked back. It's actually such a game changer against a lot of bosses

[@themeekkat]

@@mhswoocer I started using it after trying out the Arena quest with Magnamalo on Hammer. Then eventually stopped using extender and just embolden as I got better at timing dodges. Helps a lot in getting used to unfamiliar territory!

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

I want the final fight to be at least a little bs. I would be disappointed of it wasn't

[@Rytifox]

If I didn’t see this comment, I was going to make it. I thought that the armor skills and weapon augments that would have been helpful were hardly mentioned as the video went on.

[@mhswoocer]

@@Rytifox One of my biggest flaws as a mh player is my inability to think. I almost never prep for hunts and instead go for the more "hold forwards until I win" approach. Even against fatalis I didn't create a new set or augment my weapons (I should have done both) I just used the set I made for alatreon and replaced the element with raw damage. The reason I say this is a flaw is because it often stops me from seeing the game the way a large portion of the player base does and it often leads to me just flat out not mentioning things like skills in videos since I just didn't think about them

[@lilowisp1146]

i personally think a lot of the problems in iceborne are due to it being designed around the clutchclaw to the point that playing without it cripples you so much to the point some simple hunts take up to 30 minutes sometimes, a good way to show this is the health numbers lets take rathian for example: MHGU Hub Rathian: low rank 2745-3285 hp, High rank 4770-5310 hp, G rank 9225-9765 hp. MHW ICEBorne Rathian: low rank 3500 hp, High rank 5700 hp, Master rank 18300 hp. the insane jump in Icebornes master rank monster HP makes it so you essentially don't have a choice but to use the clutchclaw or suffer. and no weapons don't do a disproportionate amount more damage either, iron bow (hunters stoutbow) GU: first upgrade 90 damage, last upgrade 340 damage iron bow world: first upgrade 96 damage, Last upgrade 312 damage. Not to mention half the weapons don't weaken on the first clutch and you have to double up, the entirety of Master rank is built around the clutchclaw and it's genuinely the biggest thing that stops me from enjoying the game as much as i could as i have to remember to do my chores mid combat essentially.

[@thenecroinniceclothes5019]

You may be interested in the Iceborne Community Edition mod for World. One of its core goals is de-emphasizing clutch-claw use.

[@arbre_mystique]

I’m glad I play hammer because I get huge hits in weakened parts (up to 700 dmg) but weapons like bow or dual blades that need to weaken multiple times unless you have that one decoration is annoying. Rocksteady is my best friend because of that lol

[@freshboy3968]

Clutchclaw posting once again...

[@vazazell5967]

mhgu g-rank rathian: 3 armor skills active mhwi g-rank rathian: 15 armor skills active

[@kevinhalim405]

this is just objectively wrong lol. 9K hp in mhgu is far higher effective hp than 20k hp in iceborne. Your dps is 2x ed in MHWI and monster hunts are designed for solo in mind there, while in MHGU they're designed for 4 hunters. you can see this with the average speedrun time for mhwi being a lot faster than in GU

[@G1eatShad0w]

I love the musical progression in this video. As soon as Fatalis introduces itself The Forest and Hills theme starts to play. That might not seem like it makes much sense but this theme is basically the old school Fatalis theme without the choir. Then the actual Fatalis theme kicks in. Specifically the phase 2 version. You would think this is the end of the road but no there is a nother Fatalis theme. One that was also used in the Alatrean video. White Fatalis‘s music having a banger intro really helps elevate what‘s being talked about. Anyway, it‘s Proof of a Hero time, a little earlier than I expected to be honest. It makes sense though since the final phase is currently being discussed. It fits great with where the video‘s at right now but what’s gonna play at the ending now? Well, I’m glad you asked. It‘s a succession of different melodies that make you think of a sunny summer day in Seliana. What melodies? I think you already know. It‘s Succession of Light.

[@mhswoocer]

I think you know this already, but in case you don't, I absolutely love these comments. I put a crazy amount of work into these videos and so to have someone notice the little things like the forest and hills theme being a reference to old school fatalis makes me so happy

[@JD-kl9xw]

5:52 you get 13 s at Evade WIndow 0 for normal rolls. The lowest amount is 10 for step dodges. Keep in mind this data is for 60 fps while games like Dark Souls count i frames for 30 fps. Its still nowhere near "2 or 3" tho. It is true however that it's really hard to roll through many attacks with only base level s

[@GameBooAdvancePlus]

to the answer to the second box question my immediate thought was "buffer my defense" be it putting up a shield or preparing a heal. We probably should be breaking it to people that you have more options to a problem than the almighty i-frame roll.

[@Jyharri]

It took me several days and 50 attempts in total in order to defeat fatalis, all the time mixing and upgrading my gear to defeat it as I go. It brought me so much joy being able to defeat it for the first time. But even using the strategies and recommended skills in order to finally kill this beast, the mental fortitude was really being tested.

[@Sorain1]

It's funny, if any fight was going to not have a timer, it'd be Fatalis vs Hunter. Neither of them is going to leave until one of them is dead. All the presentation tells you this. Instead it's 2/5th's shorter than normal.

[@picofox_de]

7:52 What game devs could do to remedy this is to scale the damage with the distance of the player to the center of the AOE. Like, if it was dead on, get 100% of the damage, if you were just barely inside the range, maybe get 5-10% of the damage

[@minamoto_hikari]

I want to add one thing, I did AT Velkana, which has similar properties (health/damage wise) and I had fun. I did not with Fatalis. The problem was the timer, combined with the required head break. It forces you to take risks you might not want, but you have to. Because if you don't, good luck getting it done in 30min, but if you do, due to the high damage, you can easily cart and lose time regardless. Yes lose *time*. Fatalis should honestly not have a timer/have the default 50min timer. Because the way the fight is designed we aren't fighting Fatalis, we're fighting the timer.

[@Jsobone]

I found AT Velkhana to be more fun as well

[@Furious_rajang]

Really nice video literally sums up my problem with fatalis like I wouldn't have minded him having really high damage if the hitboxes were clean like alatreon and that's why I prefer it over him also all of the people online defending his nonsense didn't help as well but at the end of the day these types fight have to happen so that the game improves as long as we don't repeat the same mistakes also I really like how you say get or got better instead of the usual useless git gud that does not help anyone and it's actually an indirect insult to player

[@zaybud6515]

As someone who plays and loves monster hunter, Fatalis can definitely be ridiculous, I still haven’t actually beaten him but I have to say fighting him is absolutely thrilling, and as someone who plays monster hunter I agree that the timer is in fact the straw the breaks the camels back, with a boss that has double the health of almost every other monster in the game, a 30 minute timer is delusional, that being said, it’s not so much about “skill” per say as it is about what Monster hunter trains you to do the entire time, preparation, from the time you start monsters hunter you’ll come to learn that the head is you’re most dangerous spot to be, you’ll learn that gear and weapons can be what makes or breaks your hunt, and when you get towards the end of master rank, you’ll even learn that you can’t survive without jewels, and those are all the things that makes Fatalis thrilling, and it’s also the reason the timer is what causes it to topple so hard, despite it all, the timer is still completely and utterly absurd, especially considering monsters with half the health have almost double the timer.

[@Tribow]

The best response to when you think a player is having a skill issue is try to give them a tip on how to overcome their hurdle. If your tip cannot address their main complaint, the difficulty is likely artificial.

[@samakiraroyjanssen6326]

Lemme try for some of the things here; The fireball: hero dive. If you run away from a monster and dodge, you will instead dive, which has full i-frames. Fire cone; stay near. The cone can only go forwards and out, so if you’re near fatalis, and he does it, you just get 3-5 seconds of wailing on his head for free while he spews flames out beyond you.

[@eduardood]

My brother was stuck in Ornstein and Smough, I just made giant dad with black knight sword +5 and told him "you gotta keep em separated". He replied "no way, there are people that defeat them naked with a stick!" i said "sure but none did this in the first run i guarantee"

[@manuelito1233]

What if the complaint is "i have no patience to learn the fight and patterns"?

[@Tribow]

@@manuelito1233 Then they're not having a skill issue. They're having a time and/or not having fun issue.

[@bipolarprobe]

Funny enough I think presentation is one of the important factors here. A strict time limit on a boss with super punishing mechanics that require good pre positioning and reactions while also executing a high enough degree of damage to beat the time limit. That sounds brutally punishing, but that's also pretty much exactly the structure of raid bosses in mmos. You'll have fights that are 10, sometimes 20 minutes of difficult mechanics where one or two players in the party doing it wrong can cause everyone to die, but even if you do all of the mechanics perfectly if your damage is too low you hit enrage and die. The structure of enrage as a time limit feels less arbitrary because it's just another part of the boss's pattern, rather than being an interruption to the flow of a fight. It doesn't "fix" the problem with the fight, but tying the timer in mechanically can change the feel a lot. Maybe fatalis is slowly destroying the arena as you fight and if you don't defeat it in time the ground is destroyed, or flooded with lava, or otherwise made intraversible for the player. Then it feels like the time limit is something the boss is doing, rather than the hand of the game itself pulling you from the fight.

[@themeekkat]

Let's consider this scenario: If Base or even Special Investigation Risen Shagaru Magala had larger hitboxes than shown (e.x., his laser extending 10 feet further), was on a 25-minute time limit, and every attack could one-shot you in his risen state( even with 1000 armor and 250 HP) do you think people would give excuses for him? Maybe a few might, but most likely wouldn't. Fatalis benefits from a significant bias, much like Nergigante in the eyes of fans-it's all about the spectacle. I had a friend who despised the advanced quest of CG Val in base Rise due to the damage and HP, even though that boss has more accurate hitboxes. Yet, this same friend loves Fatalis more and considers it a fairer fight. 18:10 gear checks are particularly punishing for solo players, given the scaling mechanics. This approach works better in games like Warframe, where gear is the primary means of increasing difficulty. 18:24 "Death by a thousand cuts" describes much of World in general. IIXXION made an insightful video detailing the questionable UI decisions. 19:50 Complaints about these issues are valid, as Capcom frequently changes monster moves and strategies from game to game. Ryukishi's video effectively demonstrates the shift in fight philosophy from World to Rise, with a direct side-by-side comparison. It's a shame it's not more popular, as it highlights the progression seen even more clearly from the Wilds demo.

[@zakwancu3]

good stuff, i hope world curse doesnt affect the rise/ portable game. the portable are more fun imo i like world tho it can be annoying n tilting. Iceborne is mostly tilting n frustrating for me, something about the monster is too oppressive i cant enjoy the fight as much. i aslo hate world small monster they have sense of danger when a 2 ton monster rampaging about. and the roar concert doesnt help either, im lookin at you legiana oddly enough, rise is abit easy due to spirit bird, the fight felt very good. sunbreak some monster are abit to fast or no breaks in-between attack's, some have insta move, theyre mostly predictable and have fixed combo 80% of the time

[@Weigazod]

Rule of good presentation: If you turn your title into a question, do clearly give the answer by the end. If you can not give a definite and conclusive answer, don't pose the question.

[@wettham_5188]

Something i havent seen people mention much is how annoying his ai can be most of the time, mostly just in phase 1. In my experience he only uses the super fireball into flying move which takes up so much time, which especially hurts when im trying to speedrun him. He quite literally did it 3-4 times in a row when i tried him a little while ago. His tendency to just spam the same stupid attacks that dont do anything but waste time is incredibly annoying and kinda dampers the fight imo.

[@Danzilla1996]

I love this fight a lot, but I do agree, the timer really destroys the flow of the battle. It's the same problem Alatreon and master rank Kulve Taroth has, where you're not fighting the monster, you're fighting an artificially short timer to make the damage checks.

[@Steir12]

Artificial difficulty is when game designer think "alright players need to spend at least 15 hours at this part, how can we achieve this?"

[@burkenwald]

This is such a good answer actually :D

[@manuelito1233]

I agree, attacking a player's patience and sense of time is the best way to do this, which is why old souls games were considered difficult, the bonfires were so far away from the boss room while the boss can do one shot attacks or stunlock combos. It's wild how ithat ended up being so loved.

[@Steir12]

@@manuelito1233 I grow up with 8bit era games and most of those were 3-4 hours long at best, but they had to keep player entertained for at least 20-30 hours so there were a lot of dirtiest tricks how to drain your life counter and roll a gameover screen in vast majority of them. Traps that are unavoidable if you not aware of them beforehand, guessing game with 50% chance to die, sudden ungodly difficulty spikes out of nowhere, new unexplained mechanics appearing halfway trough the game that likely to cause couple of dumb deaths (looking at you battletoads) or just a dead end that forces you to backtrack half of the game wondering what you could miss. Many also had "true ending" with unknown conditions so you had to replay the game and some would go as far as "super ultra true secret ending" after true ending. Nowadays artificial difficlity is mostly tedium- lengthy traveling across the map back and forth, fetch quests, collectibles, gearcheck, level grind. Most notable example of clearly artificial difficulty i can recall in modern games is "skull level enemy" when enemy stats are multiplied ~10 times if your character level too low. You probably could totally take him down on skill alone despite being underleveled but the game demands you to get back to grind. I believe it started in WoW but even singleplayer aRPG like witcher3 or assassin's creed odyssey adopted this crap.

[@hugofontes5708]

​@@manuelito1233 at least for DS1 base game, the instant kill stuff is fairly preventable with just a bit more HP and armor while avoiding counter hits. Otherwise, besides the silly camera issues, most stuff is reasonable to position yourself around to be able to just avoid. DLC, though, these are not so simply prevented, specially Manus. DS3 the distilled version for people who love exactly that so I can see it being way more of an issue in general, specially with optional bosses and DLC.

[@grayson-nerd]

Alternate video title: Monster Hunter Fatalis Boss Design Good or Bad?

[@maynardburger]

Or, "Why you shouldn't play Monster Hunter". Seriously, this video turned me off every playing this game. A half hour fight on a timer with a bunch of bullshit attacks? Nah, I'm out. I like challenging games, but sometimes devs seem to not care about our time.

[@albinofroggy]

I am one of those Fatalis haters. I also hate Alatreon. Both for completely different reasons. It's a shame that MHW couldn't have just ended at Raging Brachydios and Furious Rajang. I'm not lying when I say it took me weeks to beat Alatreon and after 3 months of farming gear and doing attempts I gave up on Fatalis. I've just continued playing the game without ever beating him. It sucks that 2 of my top 5 least favorite fights across all of MH just so happen to be the final monsters of MHWIB. But it is what it is.

[@Rat_Fบcker]

never beat Fatty solo too, did join other and atleast be able to hold myself and help them break head part, I just don't like the fact that it have move that force you to take damage, forcing you to use potion or next time you getting hit it's gonna be one shotted, I have no problem with any monster because they always have something that we can exploited or punished, Fatalis is just overtuned for no reason than to be hard.

[@yanribeiro7108]

Thank god the developers didn't end at raging brachy, despite it also being an amazing fight. Removing 2 incredible fights from the game because a certain group of people have shit opinions on great fights would be awful. Fatalis is straight up one of the best dragon fights in any game ever.

[@albinofroggy]

@@yanribeiro7108 We can have a difference in opinion. You don't have to be rude about it. I could just as easily say you have a shit opinion because you like gimmick fights. The road goes both ways buddy.

[@yanribeiro7108]

@@albinofroggy Thank you for the permission for being able to disagree, I don't know what I would've done without it. Now that Internet Jim bob gave me permission to have a difference of opinion, I can move on. I suppose you could say I have a bad opinion for liking "Gimmick" fights, whatever that means to you. And that would be an abysmal take too, similar to your other one. So, I suppose it would make sense that it came from the same guy, in that regard.

[@albinofroggy]

@@yanribeiro7108 Brother you gotta take your meds. You're speaking to the hallucinations again. It's just incoherent rambling from you now. Calm down grandpa.

[@nineonine9082]

Timers, my old enemy, nothing like flexing on a tough enemy, then the timer be like, yo, I know your not dying, but I need you to lose.

[@Bellvines]

a lack of skill doesn't imply a poorly designed boss fight, and vice versa too. well said!

[@Tracker947]

God I hated Fatalis for so many reasons. "Final test of the Hunter's skills"... Elder Dragons already ignore a fair portion of your bag, tempered elders even more, arch tempered almost everything, and Fatalis you got exactly one gimmick (stealth siege weapons) and a MASSIVELY inflated HP pool to try and force you to either use that gimmick, or slowly farm up pieces for new gear to meet the DPS check. Arch Tempered Velkhana was a far more palatable end tier fight BECAUSE THE HP POOL WASNT ARBITRAILY INSANE!

[@Rat_Fบcker]

yeah arch tempered Velky is actually a much better fight slightly more health but massively more damage and I believe new nova move? all you need is to know all of its moveset and you're good no dps check just don't die Velkhana is one of my favorite because the hitbox is somewhat make sense except the tail stab for some reason walk under its tail after the stab animation and it still hit you

[@GTsvetkovski]

On the Alatreon video I told you I'd go back to World to take on Alatreon and Fatalis (and AT Velk but she's more of a bonus) I can now happily say I've bested all three on my own, and they are some of my favourite bosses ever. Now it's time to grind another 200 hours to get an atk 4 decoration!

[@mhswoocer]

I remember that!!! Great job, that's sick!

[@PAX-d3i]

Beating iceborne fatalis solo is one of my 2020 quarantine achievement

[@rondorock2563]

30 minute cap was the worst part to me. even when I do everything right I just ended up running out of time. 😅 Edit: I posted before I got to the last part of the video, I just realized I haven't attempted fatalis with the complete fatalis armor set because I don't have it yet.

[@mhswoocer]

That's the catch 22 though! With full fatalis gear the timer becomes a non issue, but to get full fatalis gear you have to (in theory) beat fatalis without full fatalis gear first. I think if you have fully augmented gear and weapons along with maybe a few lucky decos, the timer probably isn't as much of an issue since I'd imagine maxed out normal gear is somewhere close normal fatalis gear, but I personally didn't have the time nor the will to farm the guiding lands for 60+ hours LMAO

[@JerkTheHuman]

@@mhswoocer dont think you need 60+ hours for full augment on weapons, basically just 3 locales at level 7 and a couple of kills, which doesnt take that long. Farming decos on the other hand... I've had to kill Teostra over 200 times to get most of necessary decorations, which is still less than 30 hours KEK

[@zawarudo213]

you can get the full gear without beating it with plunder blade, there are plenty of videos out there than can help cheese the gear

[@RaposaMah]

I don’t think the Fatalis armor helps as much as people think. I have done it with defender gear and other high rank sets, but that comes from mastering the fight. My first real solo kill was done with a fully augmented Teostra, Brachydios set and it took 24 minutes. I did died a lot but that is part of learning the fight. Nowdays I can do the same fight with this set on an average of twelve minutes. I constantly see people getting to this fight and getting one shotted because as soon as they finished the mains story they do the line of quests that lead to this fight, without having understanding of building, or augmentation of armor and weapons. I don’t even think that’s the players fault, there is a very sudden change of philosophy in this fight that can be lethal for some players. A lot of people will play the game slow in a very defensive manner, waiting for the biggest openings to deal damage, and the game lets them finish quests in 30/40 minutes without problem. Then they get to alatreon and Fatalis, and if they don’t try to optimize their damage windows they will fail by means of escaton/ time out. I love both of those fights, Fatalis is my all time favorite boss, I don’t think they are the problem here. The game should have other quests throughout the progression that signalizes better that the player should upgrade their gear, that they should engage more offensively in combat, and that they should counter build for the monster. Before alatreon and Fatalis I think the only two monster I ever counter build for were Val hazzak and nightshade paolumo. Now, is the timer artificial difficulty? I think it is, but in a good way. Without it people would just cheese it with temporal mantle and farcasters, and with a longer timer it would make the fight easier, but would take away a lot of the joy of the first kill. Outside of gunners the fight is well balanced to be done in that time window with the top gear at the time of launch by the above average player. It is a fight designed to be difficult, and that’s fun by me.

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

The timer just makes you need to master the fight more.

[@bsgfan1]

To be fair, there are indeed bosses where “Get Good” is quite literally the only solution, they’re just not as common as the frequency of “Get Good” as advice would suggest. A prime example is Deathstroke from Batman: Arkham Origins. With Deathstroke, the fight is best described as hard but fair. The arena is a neutral, flat plane with no objects or spots that favor either side. Deathstroke has a randomized attack pattern, but all of his attacks can be countered. However, Deathstroke can also counter _your_ attacks if you become reckless. There’s also random QTE’s where you must counter Deathstroke that vary in length: some require one input, others require 2 or more and there’s no way to tell which is which except by being precise. Additionally, the QTE’s can happen at any time and you’ll only have a short time to react. All these factors combined mean there is no exploit, strategy, or gimmick to the fight; you _must_ beat him by skill and mastery of the game’s combat system. You, the player, must know when to attack, when to counter, and have perfect timing for both. In this regard, the game forces you to improve your skill as a player, regardless of what upgrades or playstyle you have.

[@Lock2142]

Sees fatalis outline with primordial malzeno switchaxe: so fuckin confused but excited too

[@somesillyname9714]

I couldn’t agree more with the timer being the thing that pushes Fatalis over. I tried to do the same as you, refusing to use Fatalis gear until beating him, but failed at 30 minutes with him at

[@WhiteShadowGT]

You can dodge the cone attack from far away by doing two dives in a row. You'll usually get away with taking a single tick of damage in between the dives, two if you're unlucky but sometimes the i-frames line up just right and you take 0 damage.

[@predat11]

I was seeing this so much! The regular dodge is nigh useless most of the time but the superman dive is just flat out immortality.

[@elektra8535]

11:50 IG is actually one of the best weapons to punish fatalis and break its horns because a lot of the opening you get for IG left the head wide open. The trick for soloing Fatalis with IG is to keep a medium distance, that why you can bait a lot of openings and punish them with downward thrust which i believe has a bonus part break damage

[@Tac6497]

Finally someone made a video about this, my biggest gripe with endgame iceborne was the amount of quests that had you fighting against the timer more so than the monster itself. I hope theyve learned thier lesson with this and keeps those quests out of Wilds

[@SelectBard133]

Replace 'Git Gud' with 'Keep Trying!' it's so healthy and encouraging.

[@andreskuryga1828]

man, fatalis and alatreon are the best fights in the game, not only because you actually need to get better and choose an actual build that fits your playstyle (alatreaon exeption since you need to dps check elemental damage) but you are told that those monsters are heralds of the end of times, fatalis woke up and destroyed a whole castle, of course the hitboxes are kinda wacky sometimes, but the music and the lore just makes you feel that you are actually saving the world, both monsters starts the fight confident that they will win, when you "pass the phases" they become afraid and start to act more desperally because they're trying to survive, its a whole experience, of course they're difficult, they should be!

[@TheIcenero]

Love you “cornering” Fatalis at 16:00

[@danzethyt]

the finale of this video is a great callout against toxicity in both MH and general gaming community, good job

[@Abedeuss]

On release, I thought Fatalis was too hard. Like, hits hard, has high HP, requires constant reapplying weakness... But then week or two passes, people found out how to setup fight to get him down within first minute of engagement, how to bait his breath attack, when you are safe to attack or not... And baiting the breath attack means SUPER easy headshots.

[@jammoojimmy]

You did a very good job of considering different sides to the fight here, great video! Personally, I liked that this monster was as hard as it was because it is the first time it felt lore accurate in the franchise. Fatalis is the world-ending dragon world-ending dragons are afraid of because he(or at least a member of its species) actually did end the world once before, it's the reason why we have rockets attached to weapons but still travel by sail boats and blimps, we are starting over but have some scraps of technology from the time before. As a final boss you need to use all the mechanics to their fullest: clutch claw shots, mantles, wall ramming, build crafting, part breaking, item pouch set, capitalizing on openings, positioning, etc. and the time limit is there to ensure that you can't outlast the monster by restocking at camp as much as you want, you have to really be better than the monster at dealing damage while avoiding/tanking it.

[@Akrilloth]

It's still kind of lame how it just takes you out of the fight tho, rather than making Fatalis nuke the map with a cinematic attack.

[@jammoojimmy]

@Akrilloth I agree, the timer mechanic has been unchanged pretty much since the beginning, adding a lore reason, or at least one for this fight specifically, would have been awesome!

[@Black-v8b]

"Tell me that you started playing videogames 5 years ago without telling me that you started playing videogames 5 years ago" - The video.

[@fantapikachuthenoob2938]

I’d like to play devils advocate for the timer. The shorter timer for Fatalis makes it so that you can’t just be good at avoiding Fatalis, you have to be good at dealing damage to him as well. You have to know how to capitalize off of each opening with your specific weapon to maximize your damage and truly conquer the fight. In order to beat Fatalis you have to not only master his hunt, but master your own weapon as well. Id even argue that without the timer the fight would be a little underwhelming as the final challenge in monster hunter.

[@Gankstomper]

Hard agree.

[@InvaderPivot]

Facts. Not to mention people who hate Fatalis typically are forgetting one key thing; it's actually meant to be the penultimate test for experienced players who saw the journey through to the end. And to see if you actually learned anything as you went through your Iceborne journey. All the trials you face, all the tribulations, all the triumphs, the carts, the close calls, the failed missions, all the time you spent learning and mastering the weapon you chose at the beginning of World, long before Iceborne starts that became an extension of you. Everything you went through, be it good or bad, was all to train and prepare you for the moment you face the relentless brutality and wrath of *"The Black Dragon Who Ended The World."* AND CAPCOM KNOWS how good it'll feel when you win, because that's definitely one of the reasons why *Proof of a Hero* triumphantly plays as you close in on victory and fight harder than you ever have prior against the ultimate challenge. You're about to overcome a living legend in battle and not only become one yourself when you win, but make Hunter history with your actions. The Guide chick literally says it at one point in game to us, "You're going to go down in history as one of the greatest hunters ever! And I'll be right beside you to record it all!" Hell, I even knew some attacks bc YT vids spoiled them for me and I still got hit by them, bc on paper it seems simple. Just dodge. But when you're the one staring Fatalis down in person for the very first time and it's not someone else on a KZbin video doing the fighting, then in practice, no. Mistakes will definitely be made. 😂

[@idontcheckmynotifications]

100% agree, Alatreon was like training wheels for this playstyle with the more gentle elemental check.

[@adhdasdfroflxd123]

real

[@ronaldself9628]

I hate watching a good youtube video only to realize that the youtuber barely misses the mark on understanding what they are talking about. He perfectly describes the role of hunter and fatalis in this fight of risk versus reward in all their actions. Yet lacks that finals piece that if you dont have the timer there is no point in risking anything. All good actions become the low risk actions. The only reason to play risky is the timer and you lose the fun of an exhilarating and dangerous fight without it.

[@Pokemoki]

The difficulty becomes artificial when I can personally no longer beat it.

[@jeromew3183]

@9:52: To be fair, there are technically 3 ways to not die there. 1. Is as you said in the video. 2. You have a shield to block it with. 3. You can spam Superman dives. This one probably won't save you all the time, but it definitely works if you're full health. Honestly, for me, this boss was peak BECAUSE of how bullshit he was sometimes. Idk if it's cause of being used to playing Monster Hunter or not, but no other monster in world and iceborne besides fatalis made me zero in and try everything from farming some gear, to actually using the radial menu optimally, and to actively panic/internally read the situation to make sure I never get combo'd to death, to get my first kill. It was the grueling experience I missed from older generations' endgame content. But I can definitely see your point throughout the video and can honestly appreciate hearing opinions that may differ somewhat from my own in a calm fashioned manner. Good show!

[@Oniichan880]

There's actually 1 more. If you have 6000 defense and have fireproof mantle you can facetank the whole thing

[@caliginousmoira8565]

so you dog walked escaton?

[@KatonaDavid]

@@Oniichan880 There's one more. Stay on his ass. Always. If you get combod and he pulls range, its kind of on you. Why did you get hit in the first place? :D I know it's easier said than done but with time and practice it's actually one of the best attacks he can pull against you. If you're positioned right it's guaranteed damage on the head.

[@jeromew3183]

@@caliginousmoira8565 I wouldn’t say dogwalked, but I already had elemental DB sets on standby when he was announced, so it was just the usual trial and error until the kill. So from my experience, not really a wall, but not a pushover either.

[@snowcloudshinobi]

yeah, why didn't he just block with his SWITCH AXE? or take a few seconds to sheathe his SWITCH AXE while the monster waited patiently for him so that he could dive out of the way? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@ayhcenkard2965]

the hitbox is larger than the visual it's a visual clarification design problem. sure the red circle in typical MMO might ruin the emmersion but they can just use a fire ember vfx instead seem the dev were just kinda lazy and it's not even fatalis it's many many monsters that have this problem how the fux are u gonna predict that without knowing in the first place then? u don't it's a knowledge check😂😂😂

[@sonicmaster047]

ADHD Version: It becomes Artificial when a difficulty spike is done by simply jacking up stats of bosses and enemies or just adding in cheap ways to kill the player instead of implimenting more complec mechanics or abilities that require more concerntration or skill to maneuver around.

[@nodlimax]

Pretty much yes. It's why I hated most fights in the Elden Ring: SotET DLC. They weren't really well designed fights. Many of the bosses had extremely high speed and aggression combined with attacks that would easily one or two-shot you (even with fucking scooby doo shards). Your attack windows were so small while you constantly had to dodge attacks from enemies with high stagger resistance and big health pools that it became extremely annoying. The game wasn't a fun kind of challenging. It was just annoying and frustrating most of the time.

[@sonicmaster047]

@nodlimax skibidi nuts are helpful though, people moaned and complained about fighting the final boss but with max nut and Ash if your using summons it's much more fun and manageable

[@nodlimax]

@@sonicmaster047 It's manageable but the final boss still is not fun.

[@thedarkrider987]

​@@nodlimaxI'd disagree with you on that. Every boss in that DLC was hard af but manageable in some way with enough scooby doo blessings. The only exception was Radahn. That fight was legitimate cancer to the point that he goes in the hall of fame for the select few bosses that FromSoft ever nerfed.

[@theholypopechodeii4367]

​@nodlimax Nah, with the exception of pre nerf radhan none of the dlc bosses attack windows were too fast to dodge or get hits in, and I killed them all with a UGS. They just required morenstrafing and spacing, no malenia level bs. Metyr and Romina are actually unfair bosses though due to atrocious hitboxes, but they are very easy so it also kinda doesn't matter for them.

[@Léon-x3c]

Good video. I take offense in Insect Glaive struggling to hit the head though. The whole point is that I don’t need to wait for it to lower its head to hit it. As a IG main, I’ve being molded for this fight.

[@Grimbonez]

Last line is most telling. U try to end on “moderation from both sides” but the last line shows ur bias for what you perceive as “making it better”. This is the core of the issue. The reason “skill issue” and “git gud” are the standard response is because the people who like challenging games are continuously losing ground to people who dont and are constantly afraid of, what you call “trying to make the game better”, ruining the games/series they love. Saying “skill issue” is a brash way of saying “you need to rise to the games level, instead of calling for the game to come down to ur level” Your not trying to make the game better, ur just trying to take away my toys so u can change into something you like instead.

[@miguelcabreracastro6968]

either way, videogames are for fun. You can always make a challenge by yourself, like not using certain mechanics, items, skills, etc. but been a tryhard speedrun player doesnt make you right, because thats a really small percentage of people, and nothing should be forced to people who dont like that playstyle. skill issue and get gud still dont fix the problem, and just make people feel worse, thinking their opinion isnt valid, making their previous opinions way more extreme than before. As you say, your toys are yours, but not everyone likes those toys... should everyone use thhe same even if theyy dont like it? no, every person has his own favourite toys.

[@Grimbonez]

​@@miguelcabreracastro6968 ok, what if i find challenges fun and easy stuff boring? Then how can games be fun if they are all easy? And player maybe challenge is not the same as a game designed to be challenging. Not amount of nuzlock rules can rebalance Pokemon, for example. also you wanna talk about play made challenge, but completely ignore elements of player made reduced difficulty, like multiplayer (an error the video also makes and something MH is specifically designed around). this is the same type of bias the video has. you notice the language in ur post is just completely one sided? U dont really care what i/we like, only what you like, and down play my side and tout ur side as “right” "been a tryhard speedrun player doesnt make you right", true, but Being bad at games doesnt make you right either? And im not claiming being good makes you right. Because theres is nothing inherently right or wrong on either side. Its not objective. different games made for different people. Y does it matter how small the percentage is? If a dev want to make a game for a hardcore audience, like fromsoft for example, or design a hard encounter for the hardcore players, y is that lesser to a game thats designed for a casual audience? No one is forcing anything on anyone. If u dont like hard games dont play hard game(or in MHW case, just ignore the optional super bosses like fatalis and extemoth). But dont play something design specifically to be hard and complain about it being to hard. There is nothing to “fix” the game isnt broken, its just designed for a different type of person. as you say "every person has his own favorite toys." Which was my whole point too. i was just trying to explain why the there is such a deluge of "skill issue" and "git good". people cant articulate it(especially through the lens of the internet), but there is a feeling of losing ground. this has already happened im mh with world, with fights like fatalis being the last bastion of hard fights while to game is maybe times easier overall.

[@ChildNightmare]

4 hours and 8 attempts damn I've been doing this for weeks without success and the only difference is I wasn't blind I killed it once with friends before attempting the solo and I'm my opinion the fireballs are the most outrageous thing he has apart from that it feels OK for the most part (I play lance so the cone is incredibly easy to deal with)

[@Lanzetsu]

All righty... you reminded me I didn't beat him because I didn't beat Alatreon... because I never like the DPS builds and focus more on learning to dodge, survive and play the game as an old game hunt and not speedrun. So I need to go back and beat Alatreon now... HOWEVER you reminded me as well about the last Malzeno in Rise and to me that was perfect, if you have the knowledge by previous battles and you can win by skill and knowledge while using the core mechanic of the game it is fine, but sometimes it just isn't, being forced to achieve a DPS mark on a 50min hunt that doesn't matter because you die before if you don't reach the DPS mark is absurd. Also Monster Hunter as well other games sometimes FORCES you to use specific stuff to beat some bosses, there are combos from monsters or situations that can't be avoided by skill, like Vaal Hazak blight and many stuff like that, there is where I think to myself "Is it fine that the game is forcing me to play like this and cutting my freedom?" Being said that... as far as those elements are easy to obtain and implement on your gameplay/build then it is OK for specific situations, but when it is hard to do or you must grind/sacrifice many hours to do that because skill alone and knowledge are not enough then it is really bad design.

[@mhswoocer]

I love that you bring up primordial malzeno since I feel like it's the perfect example of capcom responding to the community's complaints about fatalis and alatreon. It's still an incredibly challenging fight not because it has any auto lose mechanics, but instead because it's just fundamentally hard. The monster feels extremely skill heavy and when you lose it really does feel like you have no one to blame but yourself. You didn't lose to a timer or a hydrogen bomb that you failed to defuse, you lost the the boss you're fight, and I really like that

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

Skill and knowledge are enough. You can beat alatreon with a blast weapon and its not even that hard.

[@Verixz-mz4zj]

This is a wonderfully crafted video, great job!

[@Big-box2489]

As cb player i never enjoyed fatalis he's coded in a way that makes him unfun to fight with heavy weapons since you can't stagger him or make him fall which turns the fight to hit and pray he doesn't use a one shot attack

[@user-pn4px5lr8w]

I personally enjoyed him with most heavy weapons, just CB and lance felt very uncomfortable, and awkward, but hammer, GS, SwAx, and HH felt pretty enjoyable, but I can only really speak for myself.

[@TheCrimsonBard]

MaxDood had a great moment in the Boss Rage for Fatalis when he said "This Boss *specifically* timed me out"

[@agent2596]

19:12 they are the same person so I dont blame you lmao

[@AngelicaAlpacas]

Weapons that can use Guard Up skill can block the flamethrower attack, 2 examples being heavy bow gun or lance. This will also make you act like a pillar splitting the flames, and will also prevent damage to those behind you so long as you don't die half way though the attack. I have and it dose suck when full party cart happens this way. For those who are taking advantage of those player, watch there hp and if it get lows use a aoe healing item such as the Life powder or Health Booster Specialized Tools. its roughly about 1/3rd of your hp to the block the attack. It is still best practice to heal them even if the attack will not out right kill them just incase fatalis follows up the attack with a fast jab attack. hope this bit of info helps.

[@randomnpc445]

I think you are the only person who managed to come up with a convincing argument against the 30 minute timer. I feel like any other time I've heard complaints about it, it just boils down to people not being good enough to kill Fatalis fast enough, and while that may be true... The first fight against him, at least, shouldn't have that timer. They clearly want the odds to be more in your favor for that first story clear. It's the only quest that gives you more than the standard 3 carts by default, and the first time you do it you get carried through phase 1 by a NPC that's helping you heal. Once you clear that initial story quest though, all you have is a standard 3 cart quest. I feel like that first one for the story should've had either a longer, or an unlimited timer, specifically for the reasons you mentioned in this video. Now, onto the topic of difficulty, there's something very important that isn't touched on in this video, but I think it's key to really understanding a discussion about how fair Fatalis' difficulty is: He was the final monster added to the game. He is, for all intents and purposes, your final challenge. He's the thing you build up to, and if you played Iceborne from launch to his release (like I did), then that's exactly what happened. People went into his fight with super augmented gear that had insanely high defense and health regen on hit, along with super optimized sets that can shred through normal monsters in less than 10 minutes easily. As a result, Fatals _had_ to be balanced around that fact, and that on its own wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but the biggest mistake Capcom made with Fatalis in World is that you have the ability to fight him almost as soon as you beat Shara Ishvalda. You don't have to do the hours and hours of grinding to gather good decorations, or level up the guiding lands to unlock crazy strong augments. You don't have to fight Safi Jiiva or Kulve Taroth to get their really powerful equipment options. You don't have to do the preparation that Fatalis is designed for, and as a result, it's very easy for people to waltz into that fight wholly unprepared and get mollywhopped for it. The timer of the Fatalis quest didn't matter to me, even without a single piece of Fatalis gear, because I had a damn good set and weapon I could use to take him down. He hit hard, but that was alright because I had a health regen augment and augmented defense to help with those mistakes, which also ties into the time limit issue because I had the liberty of being more comfortable with taking risks. But someone who's just fresh off Shara Ishvalda, and the handful of other title update quests that lead up to Fatalis, will not have that luxury. Hell, someone who has only done a _little_ bit of grinding won't have that luxury, or maybe someone simply doesn't like to play with some of those tools (like the absence of health regen stipulation mentioned in the video.) I acknowledge that it's a lot to ask from the player just so they can fight a single boss, but at the same time, is it really the fault of the boss if _you_ decided to walk into something undergeared and prepared and found it to be unreasonably difficult? Is it the boss' fault if you, personally, decided you didn't like to use a specific tool or option, but the boss expected you to make use of it? The latter question definitely lends itself to an entirely different discussion regarding game balance and why it absolutely does matter in PvE games despite people claiming it doesn't, but that's not the discussion going on here.

[@draconew8945]

« I’m bad at this game » YOU BEAT IT IN 4 HOURS, YOU DONT KNOW WHAT BEING BAD IS CLEARLY

[@leduel5378]

One of the main reason i like fatalis fight is specifically cause of the high risk high reward mechanic, normally games are design to have those for the player, but here they are meant for the monster/enemy, which sometimes make it feels artifically dificult, but its far from true, as you say there are risk and rewards, but for the monster, you just take advantage of the monster "bad" decision. Also that gives so much personality to him and i love it

[@skully.8955]

my ex was the one that got me into monster hunter, and she did so by gifting me as a surprise, MHW and Iceborne. when she kept dodging playing thru the game with me, I figured i'd play the entire game solo in that case. and so I did. besides raging snot-nose brat, and the rats (early game.) I really had no problems. then iceborne happened. a miserable 2 month(?) long slog of some of the most heart-pounding moments i've had in gaming. I thought Shara Ishvalda was the end. then I saw a purple exclamation mark and got curious. fast forward all I can think about is when I told my ex my first complaint with the game "I really hate the timer. it feels like an artificial damage gate" to which she said "too bad, that's just a part of the game." she later disclosed, once I was halfway done with iceborne, she had never actually fully beaten iceborne. the first time I fought this big bastard, I didn't want anything spoiled, so I walked in blind. had no idea about the cinematic scenes where you need to hide behind certain parts of the map or it's just a wipe. second time, I was kicking it's ass hard. I mean broken horn, saliva drooling, music starts flaring. fucking timed. to which threw me so out of the game and was such a disappointment the next 3 fights I had with him were sloppy, I got disheartened and dropped the game for like a month. I have solo'd the entire game. including fatalis. which I crowned solo nigh half a year ago now I believe. so I have the right to say this finally. fuck the time constraint.

[@sniperoth]

"This game will be so much better if they add a timer!" --said no player ever

[@milkymen]

To me fatalis is probably my favorite boss fight of all time, and although I do like the timer because it forced me to play more aggressively with a boss I’d normally be more patient with, getting timed out was a bit jarring and immersion breaking, like honestly all they had to do is give me a reason as to why I only have 30 minutes and I’d be happy with whatever they give me like “oh no, if you don’t stop him now he will go to the new world “ or anything like that.

[@slayerone1226]

Two extra tidbits for you if you have a weapon that can block you can block the fire cone even greatsword can block it and the balistas also come with binders you can use to hold fatalis down so you can get some free hits on the head. For my money alatreon was the harder of the two fights because of it forcing you to build an entire element set if you dont nornally uae element then forcing two different instacart conditions into the fight. However rise and sumbreak have at least half a dozen fights that are significantly worse. If you ask ke the most toxically unfair fight is hazard flaming espinas. He has an attack thats a one shot for all but the absolute tankiest of builds. That he can spam. That has no warning and very little wind up. That is a huge aoe which later in the fight is followed by another huge aoe. That he can also move and 180 while he does wind up making it even harder to dodge. Thats done in a very small arena. And all of this is on top of him being hyper aggresive, very fast, having huge damage output, tonnes of health AND being able to set you on fire, poison you and cause defence down all in one attack.

[@GrawrzGuide]

This is an absolutely well crafted video. Well done! This reminds me of that drawing of 2 guys on opposite ends of a 6 drawn on the ground. One guy says it's a 6, the other says it's a 9. They're both right but they can't acknowledge that the other guy might be right too. "Just because you're right doesn't mean the other person is wrong." The Fatalis fight can both be flawed and a skill issue.👍

[@tristanschmidt1239]

so as someone who has never fought him it sounds like if they just did not have a Timmer for the main quest and tightened the hitboxes it would be a very good fight

[@ShmarveyXD]

The classic games felt wayy more honest and straight forward in terms of diffulty.

[@Zadamanim]

Personally I don't like the term "artificial" when it comes to difficulty. There's difficulty that is fun, and difficulty that is unfun. Having hitboxes that don't match the animations is unfun because it leaves you feeling ripped-off. Taking damage for small errors (or no errors) that is disproportionately punishing is unfun because it feels unjustified. It's not artificial because it's very real, and the natural result of a boss's design. However, regardless of if the difficulty is fun or not, the difficulty will fade as you improve at a game. Chalking it up to being a skill issue isn't enough, though. Think of the fight holistically from the first time you fight it to the last time. Ideally, it should be fun every time, where the challenge is fair enough to enjoy the early runs, but it doesn't get boring even if you master it. At the same time, there's people that enjoy an unfair challenge. It makes you hate the dragon, and feeds into your desire to kill it. It makes it feel like the dragon isn't just pile of 3D animations and code designed to fall over dead for you. It's a genuine threat because it's not playing fair. This is all to say unfun difficulty is subjective.

[@michaelmcdonald2005]

Just to be clear, World and Iceborne (and most of the games pre Rise) have a TON of I-frames, almost five times as many as you said in the video. Slot in some evade window and you'd be hard-pressed to find an attack you can't roll through. Base I-frames in World for example are 10-12 for rolls, I forget exactly which

[@praseetharae8815]

note that neither of you mentioned if it was in the context of 30fps or 60fps, so you're both kinda right from internet base world has ~7 at 30fps and 13 at 60fps evade window 5: ~13 at 30fps and 25 at 60fps for comparison, elden ring datamining puts light/medium dodge rolling at 13 at 30fps and 26 at 60fps So base for world is about half of a souls game, EW5 putting it on par. I don't know rise numbers, only did datamining stuff for elden ring, iirc rise roll is ~4 30fps and ~8 60fps

[@earthnugget7881]

The "ton" of s in question is fucking 13 at 60fps without any EW slotted. That is barely usable for the majority of things (barring roars and other very brief hitboxes). I adore fatalis but acting like your roll is just a one button solution to issues is stupid

[@michaelmcdonald2005]

@@earthnugget7881 13 is a pretty reasonable amount to get through quick attacks. Fatalis' bite is a quick attack. I trust you to put two and two together here. If I can I-frame through attacks with Lance's hop (which has even less than 13), then you can do it with a roll

[@michaelmcdonald2005]

@@praseetharae8815 Rise has so few I-frames without Evade Window I think I've rolled through attacks less than 10 times in my 600 or so hours of playtime (without that skill investment). World is very generous in that regard, to the point it feels like I'm cheating sometimes

[@NoobySteaK]

This is such a well illustrated and narrated video. I do however have one single complaint. Calling out specifically the insect glaive above any other weapon for underperforming in this hunt? Having soloed Fatalis with ALL melee weapons multiple times, I can confidently say that IG is the best weapon to bring to this fight.

[@nachogarcia8217]

9:41 The thing is this depends on the weapon. A lot of them have a block, and that trivializes cone

[@invarkul7831]

When I saw the timer I said "I'm playing so aggressive that one of us goes down way before the timer"

[@yoshida.azumi.]

My gripe with the toxic "git gud" & "skill issue" crowd is that they automatically assume everyone HAS TO be like them, and not only should play at their level, but also have the same likes and dislikes. They automatically assume excruciating difficulty & frustration equals fun, because they have fun feeling like that, and so everyone should feel the same, and if someone doesn't, they're immeidately a scrub in their eyes, or a stupid person. But it couldn't be any further from being true. I'm not the greatest hunter, by any means, but I did reach Fatalis just recently, and got immediately destroyed in 7 minutes. The fact alone I managed to reach him invalidates the skill issue in itself. And If I'm completely honest with you, the fun I had with World stopped around the time I had to face Nergigante at the end of High Rank. Once Master Rank kicked in, every boss became a slog, and a frustrating mess, having to sometimes run circles around the monster for 5+ minutes, waiting for them to have a little bit of window to put in a single attack or two. They became so relentless, and so hyperactive that it sucked all of the fun out of it. According to the toxic "git gud skill issue" crowd, once you beat a fight with such high level of difficulty, and surpass the obstacle, you're supposed to feel "accomplished" or good with yourself for achieving such a feat. Yet, around the time MR3 kicked in and Barioth appeared, The only thing I began to feel after hunts was a severe migraine, frustration from constantly being thrashed left & right, and finding myself unable to make any mistakes whatsoever, or it was a literal middle finger and a quest failed. That pressure, that having no room for leninecy, and constantly having to be stressed out to not make any mistakes, it just feels tiresome & dreadful. So much for what they call "keeping things interesting". Like, no, it's not interesting. It's borderline impossible to be enjoyed, because you spend the entire time completely anxious, nervous, and tense. And even then you get shafted hard more often than not. Not only that, but it honestly feels like a complete waste of time. If the monster is "beatable", then why tf do I have to spend weeks miserably having to bash myself against the wall, when it could've been a bit easier, and taken much less time. When you don't even want to launch the game because you know the misery you have to subject yourself to, then something is definitely wrong with the game. And no ammount of "git gud" or "skill issue" can deny that.

[@snowcloudshinobi]

just laugh at them because they're probably lance users. imagine talking trash when you hide behind a shield and poke at the monster for 90% of the hunt! lol

[@Superdude-rd2gs]

there's nothing wrong with game, you just don't like the game, there are other games you can enjoy.

[@yoshida.azumi.]

@@Superdude-rd2gs That is also very untrue. I love the game, have been playing it since the Og analog stick madness that was in the PS2. And no other franchise captivates me more than this one, considering I hate action RPGs. But this one in particular scratches that itch no other series can. My critique is fair, the game has been pushing the limits too much, imo. With each new title, the more methodical and paced combat has slowly been shoved & pushed aside by more reactionary and quick reflex combat, which kinda sucks a lot, because people are to blame for it. Tourists came from other action RPG franchises and started moaning & complaining about the game's slow pace, which in turn pushed developers to change the fundamentals of the game in order to cater to them, when it wasn't THEIR game to begin with. "tOo EaSy, pLs BoOsT, mAkE hArDeR, hUrR dUrR". And this holds very true, because from the start of high rank, all the way up to the end of it, just before Master Rank, monster fights are super enjoyable, because they're consistently hard without being outright brutal, and you can comfortably engage in a rythm of monster action -> your action, and it becomes a dance. You make a mistake, and you can easily recover and engage with the pace again, knowing it won't signify an insta cart 99% of the time. And if you're lenient enough, or just fool around, you get slapped tf out, because monsters do not f*ck around. This also holds true to an extent on the very start of Master Rank, like MR1 or MR2, because while monsters do get increasingly harder and expand their moveset, they still aren't in this seemingly turbo mode state in which they chain attack after attack after attack without letting you do anything for minutes in a row. But go MR3 or past that, and every fight is basically monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action -> monster action, and if you're lucky, you get one or two windows to land a miserable hit every 5 minutes or so. And you can't say that's a lie, because it's a fact, and happens all the sodding time. It completely kills all the fun in the game, because you end up with crap like Alatreon's mechanics or Fatalis' BS, which caters to elitists, so that they can inflate their egotistical selves with, that no one gives two sh*ts about, ruining the fun for everyone else.

[@Superdude-rd2gs]

@yoshida.azumi. I personally feel the old games are harder, the monsters in the new gen games might be faster and more aggressive but so is the hunter, every weapon now has armor, counter and super moves that can interrupt the monsters strings.

[@yanribeiro7108]

See, what you said right exemplifies EXACTLY why people say skill issue: Because you call it a bad argument because it's just something you don't like, but then proceed to say shit like "I had to wait 5 minutes for an opening". This isn't dark souls, every attack is an opening with proper positioning. If you, at ANY point in the game, ran around for minutes waiting for an opening, then it is categorically a skill issue. That's the problem with the majority of people like you that try to argue this: You correctly point out that "Skill issue" is overused, then proceed to self-report as being lacking in skill, but hiding it behind a veneer of "I don't have to like it".

[@bossdoorpodcast]

I stopped playing MHW shortly before Fatalis was released, and so I never actually fought the monster. Everything you're saying here makes it sound awesome though and I want to go back and finish the fight.

[@Angel_Flash]

I've always hated the term artificial difficulty because all difficulty is artificial. The devs make the games. They choose how easy or hard the game is. "Artificial difficulty" just seems to be a derogatory synonym for Kaizo.

[@KitsuneYojimbo]

Unfortunately, game journalists play a big part in the misconception of artificial difficulty. They consider anything requiring even a microcosm of thought to the gameplay to be artificially difficult. When actual artificial difficulty is something like what you see in those old rage games from the 2000s/2010s or beginner's traps like the Poison Mushroom in the Japanese Super Mario Bros 2.

[@M2orNot]

I have to preface this by saying that even though I've cleared Fatalis, I do not consider that I've mastered it in any way. I have a massive pet peeve with the term artificial difficulty in most contexts because, more often than not, the person who uses it means that a fight is "too difficult" without quantifying it in any meaningful way. In the case of Fatalis, the difficulty is termed artificial because of the massive health pool and the very unforgiving damage, attack patterns and timer. The thing is that all of these choices make sense in the context of the fight in the game. First of all, the damage and attack patterns are a solid case of "hard, but fair", the evasion windows are clear, though tight, the damage is high but it's to be expected from the final challenge fight of a game filled with ever more challenging boss fights. But evasion and learning the monster's attacks is only one part of the fight, and it happens to be the one that is, at least in my opinion, overemphasized in MHWorld. And here comes my biggest gripe with the presentation of the video, because the true sign of mastering a fight is not learning to dodge the attacks, but dodging them well enough, and knowing your weapon well enough, to dish out damage yourself. That is the difficult part and that's what makes this fight what it is. The health pool and limited time are crucial to get the player to really demonstrate them mastering the game. Because to complete the final test of mastery in the game, you have to dance with a living nightmare, and not miss a beat for 20-30 mins. And that's why once you complete the hunt, there's no shadow of a doubt that the training wheels have come off and you have truly mastered the hunt, your weapon and the game.

[@daltontaylor6184]

A little extra context for Fatalis'es cone breath & why it's not really that scary. 1. It's a huge opening to hit the head if you can trick the AI into performing it. 2. Every weapon can escape if they have 50% or so in a few different ways including any guard, 3x superman dive if your weapon sheaths fast enough, or was already sheathed, or if you're lucky enough to land near a pillar. 3. If you're using an unshielded HBG, Bow, or Switch Axe you won't have a way out unless you get really lucky so I usually don't recommend those weapons for Fatalis given they are kind of "All or Nothing" Play perfectly or die weapons vs him. Good on you to give it a go. Hopefully the satisfaction at the end was worth all the frustration. It's certainly not an easy hunt, but it is one of the best hunt's Capcom has ever made in my opinion.

[@adhdasdfroflxd123]

I mean learning the monster's behaviour and paying attention goes a long way. Don't stick to a range where you risk being unable to avoid the attack. Most of Fatalis' moves can be avoided while sticking close, and most of its longer fire attacks are the bigger openings for dealing damage to it. The fight even presents several clutch claw openings for hitting its head with any weapon if you can't make use of these openings otherwise

[@NovelWriterAG-nq8hd]

Never even heard of this game but I love the commentary and presentation/essay style. You remind me a lot of Thane Bishop (and that's a really good thing👌🏾✌🏾)

[@chubbz3756]

I genuinely love the idea of the time limit because if it takes you more than 30 minutes to kill this thing you have so much room for improvement, and I think there needs to be a line where they say yeah it's taking too long and you need to understand your weapon more if you want to say you beat the final challenge. 30 minutes is a good compromise because there are people beating this in ridiculous times, so they could be harsher, but 99% of people who get hardstuck behind the timer aren't far off from grabbing a narrow victory. The problem to me is the implementation of the time limit. It is so anti climactic to just interrupt the fight, they should have him go into an instant nova even stronger than the others that wipes everything out and ends the quest. It's too immersion breaking the way it is, and leaves a sour taste when you know you would've had him if the game didn't stop you in your tracks. It's so natural to time out on this fight too given that on a new monster you learn to survive before trying to punish everything, especially when you are used to the longer time limits. Probably my only gripe with this boss, and it's one that applies to every other, it just pokes its head out a bit more with Fatalis.

[@mhswoocer]

I totally agree with that. I would absolutely prefer if fatalis just nuked the field and auto ended the fight since that way at the very least, there's actually a *reason* the quest ended from a lore/story pov

[@earthnugget7881]

@@mhswoocer I agree with this. I think the timer is practically mandatory for the fight to bear any notable difficulty (with 50 minutes you barely have to fight a monster you can kinda just run around and bait a few openings until it dies) as it actually forces players to learn the fight to some degree. I did the math a while ago and provided you bring heavy artillery, use both uses of the roaming ballista, and the dragonator that leaves you with about 40 thousand health to work through over half an hour, which translates to about 20 dps, which should be more than achievable for any half decent endgame build. But I agree that the timer just abruptly ending it can make it feel bad when you are still learning, and I think a 6th nova attack with no means of avoiding it would be a good way to end it without it just feeling like something outside your control happened. Overall good video and its refreshing to see a video like this where its an actual discussion of a topic and not just "here is my opinion it is correct if yours is different you're wrong".

[@nicolasortiz1954]

Yeah, following up with that timer point, it is relatively easy to build a set that deals ~30 DPS. (You need about 33 DPS to go through all of Fatalis's HP in time). And some of the DPS can come from the ballista and dragonators, which benefit from the Heavy Artillery skill and the Felyne Bombardier food skill. The only way to really time out is if you play a defensive or support playstyle or if you are still learning how to improve. Both of these have counterplay though: defensive builds work better in multiplayer and also enable you to counterattack more often than normal. And learning how to improve can be as straightforward as learning how to bait out certain attacks (that is also a point that can be brought up; Fatalis's AI is one of the more exploitable in this game)

[@PatrickMartinez1]

Another masterpiece, you break things down in a way that no one else does.

[@officialregirock4021]

20:21 don’t let any ultrakill players hear you say this…

[@Bolt2049]

Which one do you mean? I've enjoyed every boss in ultrakill more than every other fps I've played, and the only one I can think of that fits this description is the Leviathan (rocket riding is not an excuse for that boss it's still kinda boring)

[@officialregirock4021]

@Bolt2049 sisyphus and the gauntlet before him. I could explain why I think so, but ive learned from experience that arguing with ultrakill players is a waste of time.

[@yanribeiro7108]

​@@officialregirock4021This reeks of "I tried to argue with people, I lost, now I insult them in other videos that have nothing to do with them". Both Sisyphus prime and the gauntlet before him are incredible tests of complex mechanical skills, so of course players would push back against you.

[@officialregirock4021]

@@yanribeiro7108 yeah, you are right, they are complex tests of skill, does that mean that they are flawless tests of skill? No, they are not, but this fandom refuses to accept that their favorite game has flaws. This makes me wonder if you even watched the time stamp in my original comment.

[@yanribeiro7108]

@@officialregirock4021 Never said they were flawless, my point was that your comment reeks of someone who made bad arguments then decided to vent about those pesky Ultrakill fans elsewhere. Every fanbase is bad, deal with it. And good luck pointing out flaws in Ultrakill, there's very few of them, it's a very tightly designed game.

[@ortah2616]

I am a firm believer that if Fatalis' timer was 5 minutes longer, the timer would not be an issue.

[@destinystriumph1573]

Do agree with the timer, timer is a gear check and kinda bs in all honesty, but I am firm in the camp of the better you get at the fight, the better and easier it is (It was my favorite fight, tho I'm happy that it has these flaws because it means they can easily out do it)

[@JCLegendary]

The timer has always been my true nemesis in Monster Hunter games. I even managed to time out during the Wilds Beta, and I didn't even know that was possible.