World of Warcraft Journey Part 11 Reaction - Shadowlands (second half)

[@Antonath]

If someone hasn't mentioned it yet, what Tyrande says is translated to "Her life for mine"

[@Ash-qd2ke]

Blizzard should’ve put it in the video itself, so people would see it without subtitles

[@Antonath]

@@Ash-qd2ke I completely agree, I could have sworn I saw a version with subtitles for that part

[@epic-o2215]

@@Antonath there is an option in game to show subtitles for cinematics, the version played here just had that option checked off. The subtitled quote reads "my life for hers"

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We were told to look for vid that had subtitles on for that scene and just forgot to do it 😢

[@Antonath]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames Just a little bit of lore that is good to know how much Tyrande wanted vengeance against Sylvanas.

[@Lupinemancer87]

Some of the Cinematics were out of order, but I'm really glad you finally got to watch the ones you missed last time :D

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Us too 😀

[@HadamacikTheProphet]

Seeing complete wow reaction was a pleasant surprise :). Regarding Anduin being soft well...He was taught ways of the light by Prophet Velen himself who is like kindest being in WoW. Plus he was always oriented to pacifism thats why he disagreed many times with his father. But they both learnt great deal from each other. Varian diplomacy and patience, while Anduin doing what was right and necessary. Regarding Tyrande...she is my favourite WoW character. Don't worry she is okay. There is entire quest line in Ardenweald where players are trying to save her from night warrior's power that is overtaking her. After that she is renewed and reunited with her adoptive daughter Shandris who helps players on that quest.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Very happy to hear about Tyrande 😊😀

[@kaasik1987]

When Arthas killed Sylvanas, her soul was shattered and part of it was absorbed by the blade turning Sylvanas into that emotionless empty shell, always feeling that some part of her is missing that hungering emptiness in her heart. She was easy to manipulate as she was now only about survival at all means necessary, she was no longer see things as right or wrong

[@danielhelltz]

Glad you guys went back cuz a lot was missed. Good job!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks to community for helping us get more of the story 😀

[@Ryan-sn3uo]

Raised a good question at the end. So, Sylvanas was implied to be manipulated, whereas Anduin is being mind controlled. That's their difference.

[@phoenix_00111]

The different is the jailer pawned silvanas's fragment of soul and use it to control her

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

Deeper than manipulated, he kept a part of her soul which heavily impaired her judgment. Almost like drugging someone

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

The scene in the beginning where the Forsworn steal Anduin and Genn does nothing to help became something of a meme in the community. Genn burns his toast in the morning: "SYLVANAAAAAS!" Genn, stubbing his toe: "SYLVANAAAAAS!" Genn, owes a lot at tax time: "SYLVANAAAAAS!"

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Lmao, actually had that thought after watching this. Glad it became a meme and others were on top of it 😂🤣

[@christopherwyatt9754]

Genn is having a hard time takeing a crap: "SYLVANAAAAS!"

[@ZakhadWOW]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames Old Man Yells At Clouds, meme, referencing the famous scene with Grandpa Abe SImpson shaking his fist at clouds..

[@tarrker]

LoL yeah, it did. I'd forgotten about that. Reminded me of the whole "Thanks Obama" thing. :P

[@freefall945]

Uther has an arc in game where you learn about those little soul fragment crystal things. He realizes that he wasn't split into good and evil - the fragment was part of his own soul that was anchored in the moment of his death and emotionally frozen, preventing him from moving on, resolving the anguish of betrayal, confronting his own part in Arthas's spiral, and so on - thus, the unhealing wound, and the fact that in the Afterlives cinematic, the other Kyrian (the blue angels) are confused as to why he's not ascending and developing. He eventually is reunited with his soul fragment and goes through an agonizing confrontation within himself (you, as the player, get to be in his memory with him) as he revisits his ordination as the first paladin, his training of Arthas, and importantly, the moment when Arthas confronts, betrays, and kills him. In that moment, after Arthas had committed terrible blasphemies and murders, Uther cursed his name: "I dearly hope there's a special place in hell waiting for you, Arthas." Arthas' reply: "We may never know, Uther. I intend to live forever." Fantastically, these are voice lines from the original Warcraft 3 game, produced in 2002. A little under 20 years later, they're filled out and paid off with new power: Uther is the one who casts his soul into the 'special place in hell', the Maw, that we see in the Afterlives cinematic for Uther. Yet Uther recognizes that he took an oath as a paladin with the three primary virtues of his order: Respect, Tenacity, and Compassion. In that last moment, when he condemned Arthas, his compassion was understandably depleted; but Uther reflects and decides that however distant the chance that he could have reached the humanity in Arthas, his sacred duty had been to appeal to it even then; and he had failed. That failure is the thing that was most painfully and awfully crystalized in the memory of his death, and the thing he was prevented from confronting, processing and integrating. Not just the trauma of death or betrayal, but the fact that he had compromised his own sacred principles in that critical moment. That is the peak of his trauma. When the jailor flings that energy at Sylvannas, he's not precisely letting the good Ranger-General spirit back into the driver's seat with the evil Banshee Queen. That's a fair and fine way od conceptualizing it, but it's more than that. Sylvannas as the Banshee Queen was not all evil all the time - for example, you guys loved her for a long time in her early appearances, as did most Warcraft fans! But the truth (admittedly authored long after the inciting events, but let's not get too hung up on that) is that the Banshee Queen really IS Sylvannas - just Sylvannas who was prevented from ever encountering and processing the trauma of her own abject failure to save her people from the Traitor Arthas Menethil, the one who would be Lich King. Over twenty years from Warcraft 3 to World of Warcraft Shadowlands, (13 years in Azeroth's timeline) Sylvannas has broken free from the Lich King, desperately sought alliances to kill him, failed, tried again, failed, was unable to be present for his final slaying, realized her undying existence was meaningless and hollow without her screaming vector of vengeance, took her own life, awoke in the Maw in endless torment and became complicit in his deadly plan, was carried back to the land of the living, and carried on further with many blooms of sanity and compassion scattered among the rising, choking weeds of madness and nihilism. She sheparded the frightened, hideous, but not explicitly evil Forsaken (the undead who broke from the Lich King's control) with mixed success. She clashed with the bombastic frothing rage of Garrosh Hellscream when he became warchief. She fought valiantly against the Legion, even establishing a kind of hard-won mutual respect with Varian, Anduin's father... but then made the tactically correct but morally horrifying decision to leave him to die, when the battle on the Broken Shore went bad. One of the Jailor's other conspirators duped the dying Vol'Jin into naming her Warchief, and she led the Horde to their part in victory over the Burning Legion, the mortal race's most ancient and prominent foe - but also one whose defeat was necessary to implement the Jailor's plan. She became steadilly more unhinged as the nearness of the plan's fruition became closer; burning Teldrassil and everyone in it, plague-bombing the Undercity in which the Forsaken had dwelled for twenty years in undeath and their mortal lives long before that, and finally illicitly killing Saurfang in a sacred no-magic honor duel, cursing the horde and all mortals who didn't understand the futility of everything as she saw it, and breaking open the Shadowlands, spearheading the Jailor's plans, finally showing a flash of righteous defiance when she could no longer deny that she was being used by a dominating evil power again just like Anduin said... And then WHAM, the Jailor gives her back that frozen soul fragment, and all of those memories and experiences and traumas, from her failure and death to her final evils, is suddenly unfrozen in her mind, and soul, and the shock of it is so grievous that the woman she once was cannot, cannot, accept the woman she has become. So Uther comes to her, compassionately despite her great wickedness, and tells her "actually you don't get to disassociate out of this one, all of this is you; just you prevented from emotionally processing and developing. It's time to start doing that." Some of the big themes of Shadowlands are Trauma and Healing, Forgiveness and Retribution, Compassion and Justice. A lot of folks didn't like the expansion; but I've been invested in Warcraft as a world since Warcraft I: Orcs and Humans, back in 1994. I tend to try to receive the narrative in a generous spirit, and after taking time to think about it... I like it plenty. :) Keep reacting you two; love your stuff.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Really appreciate you taking the time to break it down for us and help explain all of it better. Really hard to redeem her though if her conscience was just frozen in time and it wasn’t split into good and bad. But we are curious to see where they go with it 😀

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

nothing to do with the reaction but man is it sweet how you look at your fellow "weirdo" when hes talking. I wish my wife would still look at me like that XD

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

🥰☺️🤗

[@BloodhawkAHS]

Found your videos randomly, really love them! I like the mature discussion you have at the end, very fun to hear it all!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Glad you stumbled on our channel and are enjoying the vids 😀😊🥳🤗

[@josephflannery9015]

I have been following you guys since you started with Warcraft videos, and I must say. I love how much you guys are into it and starting to get the lore. The fact when she said Teldrassil, and ken knows it’s the tree. That’s just awesome y’all are so invested. Can’t wait for you to react to the new expansion when it comes out.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We’ve enjoyed checking it out in our own way. We don’t get the full experience but it’s enough to have us invested. 😊🤗🥳

[@notpc3070]

Was waiting for these. Thanks for reacting to them. These are some of my favorite cinematics of this expansion. Tyrande is one of my favorite characters, so I really like the ones with her.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

She was pretty badass to see and enjoyed watching her for sure 🤩

[@Sarik0497]

Really great to see you two finishing this journey with the last cinematics ☺️. It has been a long, and yet awesome journey to experience again with you two. Here's the thing with the Jailer and Sylvanas, and why people generally dislike them right now. Sylvanas has been around since Warcraft 3, and has been portrayed as this character who was forced to serve the Lich King until she managed to free herself from him during Warcraft 3 the Frozen Throne. After that, she worked tirelessly to fight for control over the lands of Lordaeron (Arthas' old kingdom) and to take it for her people, the Forsaken. She knew that the world would never accept her nor her kind, and would most likely do their best just to kill them, so she wanted to have somewhere for the free-willed forsaken to call home, and be free from the Lich King and those who'd hunt them. That's also why she joined the Horde during World of Warcraft, as she knew that if she stood all by herself in the Eastern Kingdoms, an Alliance-dominated continent (both Stormwind, the capital of the humans and main city of the Alliance itself, and Ironforge, the city of the dwarves and gnomes, are located on the same continent, and not that far from her lands, actually), she'd eventually be attacked and destroyed by the Alliance, or possibly even the Horde for some "easy" land of their own. All of this was mainly to exact her revenge on the Lich King, and when she eventually did see Arthas dead, she jumped off the top of Icecrown Citadel, being killed by the spikes below (not sure how KZbin like the s-word in terms of self-inflicting mortal wounds, so I had to be creative ^^). However, when she learned what awaited her in death (back then, it was pure suffering and nothing else. Now, it's been changed to be the Maw), she realized just how horrible death would be for the Forsaken, so she swore to do everything to save her people. Now, imagine how people, who've been following her story and development as a character for many years or even decades felt when it was suddenly revealed that the Sylvanas we had known for so many years, was in fact not really Sylvanas-Sylvanas, but just the most horrible and cruel part of her. All of that character development and the traits she possessed that people fell in love with, just gone in an instant. Even worse is the fact that they (Blizzard) had already done the same trick before in one of their other franchises, having a tactical, intelligent and yet powerful evil/anti-hero character turn good because "they weren't themselves". It just feels cheap, and like a kick between the legs for many fans and especially for the night elf lovers out there who may end up seeing Sylvanas go home-free after all this. Doesn't help either that there's a lot of speculations that the main storyteller of WoW right now, Danuser, is actually in love or rather really interested in Sylvanas. I usually stick far away from strange theories, but this one just seems...strange. His past statements and tweets do indeed suggest this a bit, and even the fact that Nathanos (the guy with the beard who had his throat cut by Tyrande) looks oddly similar to him, doesn't exactly help his case either. Now, about the Jailer. He's okay as a character on his own, but the thing that made people quite annoyed/angry about all of it, is the fact that Blizzard have changed a lot of their stories to circle around him. As an example, back in Warcraft 3, it was known that the Legion invasion of Azeroth was because the Legion wanted to invade Azeroth, as that's what they do. Now, it was changed to the Jailer having his dreadlord demons manipulate the Legion's leaders to perform many of the things that we see. The creation of the Lich King? The Jailer's idea now. Invasion of Azeroth? The Jailer. Every single thing about the Legion, and what made them this unstoppable and powerful force that was not only immensely strong in both strength and numbers, but also extremely intelligent and tactical, has been changed as well. Now, they more or less feel like the Jailer's puppets, being manipulated to do whatever he desires. To me, personally, it'd be like playing through the entirety of Mortal Kombat and learn at the very end that everything was in fact part of Raiden's plan to become a titan, and all the powerful foes the heroes of Earthrealm and Outworld have ever faced, have all been part of his smart plans, even if nothing has ever been hinting at it until that point. I'm really sorry for the long, long rant. It wasn't supposed to be this long 😅 It's just to show you one of the reasons why WoW is in such a poor state right now, where even one of the biggest and most well-known Warcraft lore creators out there (Nobbel87) as well as many other big names, have decided to just give up entirely and quit the game. It's been bad before, but never in such as state as this. I hope it eventually makes a 180 degrees turn and goes back to its roots again, but part of me know that likely won't happen, and that I shouldn't be sad about how it turned out, but rather be happy that I had so many great years with it (almost 20 years this year ^^) Regardless, I'm looking forward to watching what else you start watching (and you still have one of my other favorite series, Starcraft, to go, so looking forward to that ^^), and I might even be able to join your Patreon soon with a new job coming up, so I can finally give you something besides wallpaper comments and likes 😄

[@genHawkeye]

Honestly i feel like you hit the nail on the head- specifically with the bits about the Jailor - for me personally... the fact that there has been NOTHING hinting at his involvement prior to Shadowlands is the most annoying part. I don't mind a retconn when its done right (Take Uther's Soul splitting for instance, i personally like the idea that when Arthas killed people with Frostmourne - the stronger souls- were split instead of being completely absorbed by the blade), and them going "OH HO HO HO IT WAS THE JAILOR THE WHOLE TIME" it just makes me sad.

[@pjv1983]

The jailer is not puppet master but opportunist. For example, he did not create the burning legion, but having agents inside let the jailer accomplish part of his plan. In other words, the burning legion would have still formed without the jailer existing.

[@Sarik0497]

@@genHawkeye Precisely. It just feels like Blizzard ran out of ideas and instead decided to pick up one of their most well-loved stories and change it to accommodate the new bad guy better.

[@Sarik0497]

@@pjv1983 True, but they still changed a few important things that the Legion accomplished in order to have Jailer better fit into the story, which also indirectly caused the Legion to feel less intelligent and more "brute force everything". The Lich King is an excellent example. Kil'jaeden knew that a different approach would be needed in order to take over Azeroth, so he hit 2 birds with 1 stone; punish Ner'zhul for his arrogance by turning him into the Lich King, and then have him spread the plague of Undeath across the Eastern Kingdoms, weakening the humans and elves. It made the Legion feel more dangerous, as you knew that they weren't just incredibly powerful, but also immensely intelligent and clever. But with the change of the Jailer, the Lich King is not a product of the Jailer's plans, and not Kil'Jaeden's. Sure, Kil'Jaeden might've been the one to create the Lich King, but it's no longer certain whether he came up with the plan himself, or if the dreadlords manipulated/convinced him into doing it. It makes a powerhouse like the Legion feel less powerful and meaningful if you ask me, because if someone like them were capable of being puppets to the Jailer whenever he desired it, then who knows what else he might've done. For all we know, they might pull a "the Jailer was also manipulating the Old Gods" card at some point, which sounds ridiculous right now, but it's not that out-fetched considering what else has been happening recently.

[@genHawkeye]

@@Sarik0497 I agree with that sentiment 100%, that is exactly what it seems like

[@epic-o2215]

I have been waiting for you guys to see all of these, happy you were able to get around to it! Some footnotes : sorry for the incoming word vomit Abduction cinematic: Yes, that was ridiculous, Genn did nothing to stop the abduction. The only important details here is that all of the heroes were abducted, except Tyrande who killed the dark angel things that attempted to take her. Everyone else was taken. They meant to portray these mawsworn as fast and strong enough to abduct powerful characters like Anduinn and Jaina and that only Tyrande was powerful enough to evade capture, they just didn't do a good job of showing it. Tyrande vs Nathanos: Not much to say, she destroys him. He's confident that even if he dies he will just go to the shadowlands to rejoin with Sylvanas, but he was wrong. The jailer did something with him and kept the information from Sylvanas, leading to the satisfying exchange between sylvanas and tyrande later where it is revealed she didn't know he was killed in the first place, and the first clue sylvanas gets that she is just being used, which yea that shouldn't have been the first clue, but we arent her, she clearly has terrible judgement which seems to be part of the whole ripped soul bit. The demon dogs he uses are killed by moonfire (Tyrande has always had an array of cosmic powers courtesy of her goddess) she can call down a shower of stars onto armies and she once crushed a dark angel thing with a small moon (where these things come from is up to debate, she might be getting them from a veil that surrounds azeroth ). The owl is one of her 2 pet companions (frostsaber and owl). Tyrande says : "For Teldrassil..." after killing Nathanos. Tyrande's appearance throughout the cinematics changes progressively, if you see. In the first one her eyes were dark, in the second on there is more light coming from them, in the third one you can see the crescent moon above her forehead and her face seems to have a night sky and stars and glowing tattoos and in the last one she is literally glowing everywhere and is just the embodiment of Elune, though we still don't know what Elune actually looks like. Bastion Cinematic: Uther walks by anduinn and touches the wound of his chest, this is the first clue that Anduinn is being dominated, the presence of the jailer causes the wound made by the lich king Arthas to act up. That and Anduinn resembles Arthas in life, and you may remember Uther was his teacher. Despite the Archon (angel boss lady) seemingly fatally wounded or killed, she didn't die. There is a good chance that "eternal" title makes her immune to death or maybe eternals cannot kill other eternals which helps explain why the jailer was imprisoned rather than killed. Also anduinn was the key to entering Bastion and speaking to the Archon without escaping the maw for the jailer. From this point on, Sylvanas is less and less relevant to the jailer, next time she is literally just the distraction in ardenweald, while Anduin actually stole the sigil. Tyrande vs Sylvanas: Sylvanas is the distraction at this point, opening a gate from the Maw to allow a Terragrue (big monsters) to walk through, these things are very powerful and actually one of it's siblings serves as the first boss of the raid in game. That Tyande kills it so anticlimatically is meant to very plainly flex her power at this point, which is also clearly superior to Sylvanas. Making her the first and only character to actually be able to 1v1 Sylvanas since she started using domination magic borrowed from the jailer. At the end of the fight however, Tyrande seems to run out of power. This has yet to be actually explained, but there's a lot of theories about why she wasn't able to finish the job. 1 theory is that Elune wanted to save sylvanas for some reason. This is the worst and most baseless of the theories, but It gained traction with the unhappy masses that are convinced it's just another layer of plot armor for Sylvanas. There is 0 evidence to suggest that's the case. Another theory is, if you play the cinematic with subtitles, Tyrande makes one last prayer to Elune before taking flight, she speaks in Darnassian, but the translated text reads "my life for hers" meaning she is asking Elune to ensure Sylvanas dies, no matter the cost. The idea is that Elune rejects the bargain, as to not lose Tyrande to vengeance. Players who went through the ardenweald campaign know that previous night warriors all died the same way, undone by the sheer power and consumed by vengeance. The main problem with this theory is that in the last cinematic Elune says that Tyrande must choose Vengeance or Renewal, but the claim is that clearly Elune made a choice for Tyrande in the previous cinematic, so either she changes her mind after learning new information or is just contradicting herself. My current theory is that Tyrande is literally exhausted at this point. Players who went through the storyline, know that Tyrande jumped into the maw before the player did, and spent an immeasurable amount of time in there, and she was fighting for the whole time. When you encounter her (if you chose ardenweald storyline) you can click on her and see that she has a debuff (a hindrance) www.wowhead.com/spell=320049/power-of-the-night-warrior Power of the Night Warrior Fueled by the uncontainable power of the Night Warrior. Deals massive damage, but also heals the same amount as long as the power can be contained. The power she is wielding is literally tearing her apart, and when she pops out in this fight, she has been in the maw fighting endlessly for months. Her last push to take flight might have burned out the last of her strength, until she finally succumbs moments before killing Sylvanas. Interestingly, Tyrande is the only being so far to resist that domination chain magic, these story elements may come out when they do make an Elune centered expansion or patch.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We love word vomits 😊😉😂🤗

[@LukasLLM]

"Just wanna know her motive, whats her drive behind all this". Us too buddy, us too...

[@gianmarcozampella5138]

you're not the first ones that get a little confused about this: no,Sylvanas wasn't mind-controlled by Zooval(The Jailer)like Anduin,that only happened with Arthas when she was a Banshee and didn't reclaim her body yet,she was manipulated by him,in a very smart way,because he leaned on the rage and hate of Banshee Sylvanas in order to cloud her judgment,and faking to treat her as an equal and to have the same goal. They've made the deal since Legion,consisting of Sylvanas going beyond the veil to free and help him in return for Zooval giving her a bit of his power,and that's why she was so strong against Saurfang and Bolvar for example

[@johnj4471]

He never lied to her, tricked her, or abused her. The only reason she turned on him was he got a little mad when he finally was in full power mode and he deserves to lash out a bit for what was done to him.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

@@johnj4471 He clearly manipulated her by withholding the "good" part of her soul. Without this part of her soul she was effectively incapable of making proper judgments. As soon as he released this "good" part of her soul she immediately changed.

[@johnj4471]

@@Red1Green2Blue3 there is no good part. Try again. It was a snapshot. The purpose of keeping it was a fail safe to trap her if she turned on him which he did. You claim clearly when saying something that the game contradicts. Do you even watch half the crap you’re claiming.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

@@johnj4471 Projection much? Nothing you said is supported by anything in game OR in the recent novel lmao. The Jailer didn't try and "trap" her if she turned he doesn't need a failsafe because she posed ZERO threat to him and he could have killed her if he wanted, he released the "good" part of her soul to SPITE her and make her feel guilty for all of the terrible things she did whilst her soul was incomplete. This is universally accepted by everyone. The only thing that anyone disputes is if the "good" part of her soul that was released constitutes an independent separate entity that should have responsibility for the actions of "the Banshee Queen".

[@johnj4471]

@@Red1Green2Blue3 you claimed the soul was a good half. Uther did not have a good or evil half or else he would have been sent to another afterlife. You claim he didn’t try to trap her when the cinematic makes it clear it was in fact to keep her in the coma. She posed no threat? She literally knew his whole plan. Him keeping the soul was Batman keeping a kryptonite bullet. Only one projecting is you being mad when confronted with in game info.

[@avonthes]

You guys are my favourite reaction channel by far. Thanks so much for doing what you do, it's so good to see you guys enjoying this stuff!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks so much for the kind words 🥰😊🤗

[@Ozraevun]

Uther's reaction when he sees Anduin is because Anduin REALLY looks like a younger Arthas, and Uther kinda has some serious PTSD concerning his old student xD (for obvious reasons) and he got some flashbacks when he saw someone so similar to his Prince.

[@airinyourtires2931]

The reason Sylvanas was okay with, for example, burning Teldrassil, but not with letting three people be mind-controlled, was because the Jailer manipulated her into believing that everyone she killed would go to the Maw to empower him to break out and replace the Arbiter (the robot who decided where souls went after they died; the Jailer had the job originally but he tried to do his evil plan and was imprisoned for his efforts and replaced with the one who died at the beginning of the cinematic where he gets his new armor) with a more just system. He, of course, actually wanted to control everything, to "Forge a new reality where all shall serve me." (The other voices she heard were Arthas as the Lich King and Arthas as a mortal.) Both times we've seen a dead person with a split soul, they were able to merge when they both accepted something. For Uther (the guy in Afterlives: Bastion and Shattered Legacies: he also appeared for a moment in Kingsmourne), it was that he could have at least tried to talk down Arthas instead of fighting (and killing) him. For Sylvanas, it appears to have been that the horrible things she did were her choice, and that they were avoidable. She didn't need to burn Teldrassil, but she believed she did. The Jailer's manipulation didn't help matters, either. Unfortunately, the game didn't do the best job of showing exactly how much the Jailer manipulated her. Consequently, her saying "I will never serve" made a lot of people say "You already have been!" She believed, however, that she was. I believe she's the only one of the Jailer's allies to address him by his name, "Zovaal," rather than either "The Jailer" or "The Banished One." Another thing that confused a lot of people was what Elune meant in "By Our Hand." When she said, "I heard your cries, felt your pain, and in the wake of tragedy, sent forth the cascade of souls to sustain you." Many people misinterpreted that as her saying "I caused Sylvanas to burn down Teldrassil," but that is not the case. When Night Elves (they call themselves Kaldorei, meaning "Children of the Stars,") die, their soul either moves on to the Shadowlands or returns as a wisp (basically a ghost; you saw them blowing up Archimonde in Warcraft III). Elune, evidently (one of the novels might explain this, but I'm not sure), has the ability to choose; often, in wartime, she will make wisps to aid her "favored children." However, this was exactly the wrong decision: Instead of going to Ardenweald to help the Winter Queen, Elune's sister, because the Arbiter was broken, every single Kaldorei who died at Teldrassil went to the Maw to empower the Jailer. Some of the stuff that appears to be planned for the end of Shadowlands, patch 9.2, seems very interesting, and I'm excited for it to be released so you guys can look at it.

[@TheDs227]

To answer your question at the end, she was not a puppet when she burned the tree, but it's not as simple as controlled or not. It's very similar to both Arthas and anduin. Arthas knowingly committed his atrocities. Anduin went to bastion to get the key himself. The jailer wasn't in control of him until he got to the archon who recognized immediately when the jailer took over. I've always been a fan of the sylvanas character, not for the good or evil storyline but simply as a dynamic character.

[@alonsogonzalez7539]

As for whether there is a "good Sylvanas" and a bad one there's still some different interpretations going on, and I do think that's Blizzard's problem for not being clear. As I understand it, based on more context given by the quests, is not that her soul was split into a good and evil side, but more so that there's one part of her soul that was frozen in time, and never experienced the domination and trauma and revenge that banshee Sylvanas did, a part of her that never followed the dark part. But unlike a separate entity, it's just a fragment of her own psyche, a reminder of who she was, and by having her soul "restored" it basically forced her to reflect on what she once was, and what she has now become. More so like a split personality as a manifestation of inner turmoil that now has sorted their trauma, less so of a good and a bad version of the same person.

[@chamathnadeeshan4008]

I'll add something for your theory. When Uther's soul split to 2, one piece saved by light and send to afterlives. Other stuck inside Frostmourne. Frostmourne part helped us defeat Licking in game. And it releases when Tirion Shatter Frostmourne. And then it goto Zoval's vaults. Because all souls harmed by Frostmourne goto Zoval. Saved part go through all bastion story and later we retrieve the broken soul from Jailor vault. So for Sylvannus, her soul didn't saved by light and go straight to Zoval. While Other part struck inside Frostmourne will be ressurect as Banshee.

[@miriamweller812]

It's absolutely clear. The General is a fragment of her stopped in time. The other one isn't. That's all. Uther himself made clear when you reunite his soul before, that he wasn't split into a bad and a nobel part. One part just stopped to move on, frozen in time, the other part didn't. And of course this was not 'good' it was a sore wound, that can not heal, but he wasn't evil Uther or good Uther, he was just soul wounded Uther. Same or Sylvanas. Banshee Sylvanas is not ht evil Sylvanas. She just lived to way more that General part never had to suffer from. The General part wasn't turned Undead, put under the complete mind control of a Lich King to be forced to slaughter the people she was there to defend. The general part did not have all the rest of the journy, including a second death, then seeing an afterlife that was nothing but eternal hell and so on. The problem was, that this old, frozen part of her could not accept, that life went on and took such a turn. If your past self from 20 years ago would have to merge with your life now or let's say, if you would have to do this with a time jump of 20 years - that would be hard enough. Now imagine there was a third world war and your future self would have done terrible things in this war to survive or whatever. Ugly, no? It's good, that her not frozen part is angry at her old self, too. That she yells at her: this is not about life and death, life and death got not meaning, you naive child, both are part of an enslaving machine and this machine must be broken by all means! That's her PoV and she really should stand for this. She should not apologize for what she had done by calling it meaningless or alike, but point at the goal and how important it is - and if they want to kill her for the means she used to reach it, she should just accept it. That would fit her character well.

[@Red1Green2Blue3]

@@miriamweller812 Clearly it's not "absolutely clear", something that is "absolutely clear" doesn't illicit such disparate interpretations. The fact that the change in character was so fast demonstrates that this "fragment" was a substantial and highly influential component - hence why the Jailer withheld it, this in and of itself means that the character after the "merge" isn't in anyway responsible. The character we see after the souls are merged is effectively, and practically, an entirely different person.

[@ScepticLlama]

Tyrande's moon/star powers are her embodying the goddess elune(the moon goddess that the night elves believe in). This is a harsh shift for her, cause she was always very forgiving and kind, but fair. She, together with malfurion, have grown more vengeful and dark after the burning of teldrasil(the large tree). A big thing in warcraft is that Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is shown in tyrande and her actions. The part with the crystal made from the tear i believe is her giving up on her anger and hatred in order to become herself again. Mind you, i do not play wow anymore, but i know a lot of the story pre war of azeroth.

[@incadeptus]

Yes, Elune is one of the most powerful beings in Warcraft and Tyrande is her favorite priestess, that is why she always helps her and protects her, but sometimes she chooses to withdraw her power from her because Tyrande was too consumed by vengeance and was ready to die for it . These are indeed all the cinematics as of now, I suggest you watch Warcraft cinematics in the future only if there are 3 or more of them to make a full video because they are quite short. They will start dropping in the end of March probably. I will keep watching all of your videos and reactions anyway. I wish you all the best, friends!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Appreciate the rec to wait for three at a time to come out for the cinematics 😊

[@miriamweller812]

The undead ranger knows about the afterlife - and he's just undead anyway. As he said: "You send me right to my lady", means, if you kill someone does no matter, since it does not raelly end there. There is another prob he does not know of, though - as seen later. But overall, with the afterlife in place, being killed is more like dying in the tutorial of a game - and then just respawn at the start of chapter one. It's quite scary - and takes most meaning out of life. Reminds me of a movie, where in a world that knows no lies, someone discovered 'lying' and since no one else knows about lies, all of them just believe whatever he tells them. Later, when his mum dies and is scared, he tells her about the paraies, that awaits her to calm her down, what even works, but a nurse and a doctor have heared him too and the next day already a bunch of people are in front of his house, since he knows about that wonderful afterlife. Not really even being able to explain to them, that he just, well, lied, he instead makes up more stuff, including that you get a house, see all your loved once, get as much ice cream as you want - but then add some rules, that you have to do nothing bad to get this, in hope to at least improve the world a bit. The thing is, that people, 'knowing' that there will an afterlife and a wonderful one, just stop to care about their real life, which often enough just sucks or at least is quite a burden and why care for all that, if you got this wonderful eternity waiting for you? Imagine how even more terrible it would be if you know that for real PLUS it's not a paradies but purgatory at best - if not hell.

[@MasterZeus94]

Ah, that journey was good to experience with you guys :D Can't wait to see what's next... and also that complete history of WoW :D

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Complete history of WoW will come 😉🤗

[@phoenix_00111]

i think the different between them is the jailer pawned silvanas's fragment of soul and use it to control her

[@Ferdawoon]

Some context: The first cinematic is played as we start our first quest of Shadowlands, before we even get sent across the veil. It's a recap for us players and for those who havent really watched the cinematic. The second cinematic with Nathanos is played after we players defeat him. He was a World Boss (a boss out in the world and not inside a dungeon) in the weeks leading up to the new expansion. Bliz usually have some pre-patch events that is supposed to lead into the new expansion. There were Zombies all over the place and even players could be turned into Undead for a short time. Nathanos was/is Sylvana's love and partner from when she was still alive. He was the only Human able to achieve the rank of Ranger(?) which was not easily done and due to "racism" among the High Elfs their relationship was frowned upon so they kept it in the dark. When Sylvanas speaks to Anduin and she sayd "We couldn't even choose who we.." she stops herself and many assumed she was sad about her relationship with Nathanos and not being able to live it to its fullest. Tyrande was pissed about the Tree and wanted revenge. Nathanos, we assume, wanted to get sent over into Shadowlands so he wasn't really sad about being killed. Or so we think.. The third cinematic is played after we kill the last boss ofr the first Raid. Sire Denathrius, the vampire-guy who sat and composed a letter to his underlings about how they had to ration all their Anima, practically starving his people, while those in power could feast on it. He also sent all the Anima into the Maw. After players defeat him, the Sword (Remornia) absorbs his soul into it as a way to defend its master from us evil players. But we take that Sword and place it on that tower, where the Naaru (the glowy thing, a being and conduit of pure, holy Light) shine into the mirrors which will trap Denahtius inside the sword (since if he leaves the Light will burn him). The fourth cinematic, where all the cool kids get imprisoned. We find a relic of the First Ones, those who supposedly set up the whole system of Afterlife (The Archon and the others are just caretakers) which somehow only reactis to us players. Players assumed that when the Jailer says "Interesting..." he talks about us leaving the Maw, but apparently he was referring to how Anduin could call upon the Light to defend us as we escaped. That was his sign that Anduin was pure enough to be able to enter Bastion and get close to the Archon. The Jailer didn't want the player, he wanted Anduin. The fifth cinematic with Anduin stabbing the Archon. As Anduin walk up towards the Archon, we see Uther pass by. Uther is the guy who got stabbed in the Bastion Afterlife cinematic. He got sabbed by Arthas, the old Lich King. We saw a Mournblade be crafted in a cinematic with the Jailer and Sylvanas, where the Jailer takes a blue crystal out of a portal and it is forged into a weapon. Players wondered if that was the soul of Arthas that Uther threw down into the Maw. If we listen as Anduin pass by Uther, we can hear a tone-shift in the music and a brief few notes from "Arthas Theme" with the little boy singing and Uther touching his wound from the Lich King's weapon. This makes me tyhink that yes, the soul inside Anduin's weapon is Arthas's. Also, as he suck the Sigil out of the Archon (she survives btw) we see the Domination falter for a brief second and he is himself. This is when we knew that Domination wasn't absolute and all the time. And yes, you can see Sylvanas feel a bit guilty about Anduin being Dominated the way she was by Arthas, the old Lich King. The sixth cinematic and fight between Tyrande and Sylvanas. So yeh, Tyrande is still royally pissed and back in the previous expansion she requested the power of the Night Warrior from Elune. The Avatar of Elune's Wrath. Immense Power, but it also feeds on her. Like a candle shining bright until the candle has burnt out.. She now is finally able to exact her revenge for Sylvanas burning Teldrassil, their old home, sending all Night Elves there to death. As Sylvanas fly away, Tyrande kneel's and say in Darnassian (elf language) "My life for hers" so when Elune denied Tyrande her revenge and prevented her from killing Sylvanas, players started to speculate again. Had she already run out of power? Was her candle almost out? Or did Elune for some reason stop her because Elune did not want Tyrande to die? After the cutscene players invoke a ritual together with other Night Warriors who died as the power burnt them out. That is when the The seventh cinematic showing the conversation between Sylvanas and Anduin. It is "recorded" before we players go into the raid and defeat Sylvanas as the last boss. You see the End-of-Raid cinematic after this. So this is a flashback really. It shows how Anduin is still feeling sympathy for Sylvanas, and how now Sylvanas no longer calls Anduin "Little Lion" but instead "Young Lion". Remember that at this point we still don't know if they forced Anduin to comply, or if he joined willingly. The conversation here makes me almost think he joined her willingly. He dislikes that he was turned the way he is now, but that he decied to join in with her plans. Maybe he saw it as the least evil and that this ay at least he could try to leave hints to us following him on how to defeat the Jailer.. Fun fact: That locker is the same locker that we see Varian look at in the opening cinematic of Legion. During Legion we players can find an object underwater which is that locker, we take it to Anduin and he then travels to where his father died and get an epiphany with that he doesnt have to be his Father's Legacy, he just needs to be King (you saw this in your Legion compilation) The eigth cinematic is the end-of-raid cinematic after we defeated Sylvanas. The last phase has the Jailor trying to siphon out his own Sigil out of the Arbiter (we saw Anduin take the Archon's Sigil earlier, Sylvanas vs Tyrande was a lure so that Anduin could take the Sigil from the Winter Queen and now he got all the other Sigils), as it was taken from him when he was cast away for dabbling in knowledge he shouldn't have. The Jailer was the original Arbiter who chose where souls should go, but he did bad stuff so they jailed him in the Maw and they instead built that Arbiter that we saw get shut down at the start of the expansion. When the words "serve" echo for Sylvanas, the final Echo is the voice of Arthas, who enslaved her. We then see the Jailer throw the lost part of her Soul to her, so that now she is once again made whole. Just like how Uther had his soul split in the Bastion Afterlife cinematic, similarly was Sylvanas soul split as Arthas stabbed her. We then see the locket that Anduin dropped which held the memory of him and Sylvanas talk that we saw earlier. As Sylvanas faints, note that her eyes are no longer Red the way they have been for so long. Instead they are Blue like they were when she was still alive. Is she still Undead or is she now alive somehow? We have no idea.. The ninth cinematic is Elune channeling her presence through Tyrande. The Winter Queen that rules the Tree-zone in Shadowlands is the sister of Elune. Elune in turn is the goddess of the Night Elves and it is supposedly Elune's power that they use when their Night Elf priests use healing magic or when their druids call down Moonfire. It seems like they re going for a Yin-Yang type setup of the Winter Queen and Elune. They are both sisters, part of a whole, with the WQ ruling the fall and winter of souls, with Elune ruling the spring and summer. Elune cares for souls in life while the WQ takes them as they die and nurture them back to life and return them out into the world again. As Denathrius hoarded all the Anima, there was nothing left for the other realms. We see in the Ardenweald Afterlife cinematic how the groves wither away when there's no Anima left. So the WQ called to her sister for help, and when the tree burnt and all the Night elves died, instead of keeping the souls for herself she sent them to the WQ to help her but instead they were sent to The Maw.. But now Tyrande must choose if she want Revenge for the deaths of her people, or if she want Renewal which would allow for the souls of her people to maybe, one day, be returned to life. She chose Renewal and together they form a new Sigil (remember the Jailer took their old Sigils and players then help restore or re-create, or even create new Sigils). By doing that she is no longer a Night Warrior and the power is no longer slowly burning her away.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Appreciate all the extra context here 😅😀

[@Ferdawoon]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames Cheers for doing the reactions! Allows me to go to the Comments and mansplain the shit out of things I find interesting =D

[@Eloryan]

Well done but here some correction: Well, we know from the star that anduin was compel by the Jailer. He never joined willingly, we knew it from the start you know :) And yes, Sylvanas is still undead. Only his mind / spirit has changed. But not its condition.

[@Amir-je6cy]

two new shadowlands cinematics is come

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Nice. Will have to check those out 😀

[@Naturius444]

Athelarius also made some very, very good lore movies with amazing editing, I dont know if you will have time to watch or react to it but I highly suggest it:D

[@johnj4471]

They should have used his shadowlands compilation from the start.

[@Naturius444]

@@johnj4471 I like his Varian and Illidan videos, those are the best

[@karama300video]

@@johnj4471 This! He got the best compilations. Also his latest video is a great comeback to Cataclysm (with Deathwing)!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks for the channel rec! 😀

[@Eloryan]

Yes ! This channel is gold for pure lore without playing the game yourself !

[@ernesttobler6014]

Anduin is the Golden "boy" bc his father was such a big deal in the lore. when wow came out anduin in game was literally a tiny todler while his father was kidnapped. He studied to be a priest, but became a paladin trying to follow his fathers footsteps as a warrior. Both the father and son learned from eachothers ways, but anduin really is still maturing. He is a young naive "kid".

[@Raffalius]

Blizzard have said he is still a priest, they didn't turn him into a paladin for some reason even tho that would have been a better decision. But, it's not like Blizzard has done any good decisions these past few years 😅

[@ernesttobler6014]

@@Raffalius Im sorry im not that big of a lore buff. I just assumed that in the BFA cinematic he was performing a concecrate hitting that troll. But again, would that even mean anything?? As you said, blizzard isnt exactly A1 anymore.

[@Raffalius]

@@ernesttobler6014 Right? I mean everyone assumed he turned into a paladin because of the sword and plate armor. So blizzard actually had to explain people in interviews that he's still just a priest 😂 They had probably forgotten that paladin is a class ^^

[@ernesttobler6014]

@@Raffalius idk anymore. certain characters like sylvannas make me wonder why classes are even a thing. Rogue + hunter + (shadow banshee death priest idk what). or druids using arcane/moon spells and how that would relate to elune. at this point theyve said sooo much that nothing means anything anymore.

[@ernesttobler6014]

@@SirCharlzTV good to know. i just loved how the elwyn, westfall, RR, duskwood etc quest lines all fit together. Ultimately connecting the kobolds to the defias, why every town is denied soldiers and supplies, all the way to Onyxia

[@Aceries_]

Some events slightly out of order (not sure if that's the order it was released though, I haven't fully followed this expansion). The pocket watch that Anduin drops 19:01 at is how the leaders are able to peek at Sylvanas and The Jailer's plans at 15:29. There was some speculation that the uncorrupted parts of Anduin were what gave him the foresight to conveniently leave it behind, enchanted with the memory of his conversation with Sylvanas. Some context with Elune (the Moon Goddess who powers Tyrande) and the Winter Queen (the being in the 19:22 portion): They were resentful of each other because The Winter Queen had been dealing with the anima drought since Sylvanas "broke" the system of death. Elune tells her that she had sent the souls of those elves who died in Teldrassil to The Winter Queen to give her anima. The Moon Goddess informs her that they never made it to her realm; instead, they were sent to the Maw because of The Jailer's actions. Elune never knew, and shed a tear when she realized she, without knowing, damned her children and closest followers. They reconciled and let Tyrande choose to renew herself and help heal the Winter Queen's realm, to put it simply. This is why The Winter Queen hesitated to rescue her "pet", the green dragon aspect of dreams, Ysera. She was resentful. Also, Elune took away Tyrande's powers during the scene at 14:44 because the Night Warrior powers would have killed Tyrande herself. Elune never wanted Tyrande to sacrifice herself to unalive Sylvanas.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks, Rachel! 😀

[@khielhydre5288]

I love you guys so much! thanks for making theses videos; I really enjoy sit an relax while watching videos with you

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Love hearing that 😀🥳

[@DragonSlayerCommentariesHQ]

And that's how the Anduin "YEET" moment was born.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😝

[@ABD-pr4xm]

Glade you guys liked Tyrande ! shes cool, if you noticed her eyes were black , she made Night Warrior ritual after the burning of the tree.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Tyrande is awesome 😀

[@nakenmil]

Thanks for sticking with us, even if this produces a more mixed bag of comments, people are going through some shit, lol.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

🤗

[@1ceag3]

Sylvanas was never mind controlled by the jailer, but rather manipulated. She thought they were working toward a common goal, but after the events in shadowlands she realised how wrong she was. Also, the soul fragment jailer gave her is not really "good sylvanas". Its a piece of her concsiousness that was frozen in time. That piece of Sylvanas didn't saw Arthas wipe out Silvermoon raising her own people, and turning her into banshee. Being raised as undead makes people lose their humanity and empathy, and so Sylvanas became cold and vengeful. Now, ranger general Sylvanas get see what SHE has become. And she refuses to accept that the ranger general and the banshee are one in the same.

[@p1-leo514]

Sylvanas was not mind controlled she was just a victim of poor writing by Danuser.

[@derfritz4550]

uuh no she wakes up in the end so she accepted what she is. uther literally said in the beginning the jailer forced her to relive her crimes over and over and as long she does not accept that this banshee is a part of her she cant wake up

[@Miesha88]

So, what we get here is a big piece of the ongoing storyline, which is essentially one big rescue mission to free Anduin from the Jailor's control. Now, as far as I understand it there -are- more stories ongoing at the same time in the Shadowlands, but in BFA there were 3 separate storylines (Alliance, Horde and Magni, Voice of Azeroth), in Legion there were at least two, and previous expansions have had at least a horde and alliance separate storyline. In Shadowlands however, despite there being 4 factions to align with, there's no real distinction between Horde and Alliance, everyone's trying to rescue Anduin and stop the Jailor. That said, it's understandable because the Jailor uses a power I spoke about in the past, wielded by Arthas the Lich King. The Helm of Domination which Sylvanas destroyed was forged by the Jailor, alongside the runeblade Frostmourne. Those two artifacts possessed unique powers from the Shadowlands that the mortal realm couldn't contest at all. The Helm of Domination allows the utter control of victims minds and actions, while Frostmourne shatters the souls of those it cuts. It was believed it sealed the souls inside itself, but this is clearly not the case as both Uther and Sylvanas are proof of. And the Jailor is the SOURCE of these terrifying abilities, meaning he possesses a much greater degree of mastery over them. In the final bossfight against the Lich King, he wins. The Lich King kills everyone, it was unavoidable at the time. The raid gets Deus Ex'd (Divine Intervention) by an NPC (Tirion Fordring) who delivers the finishing blow to Arthas and then ressurects all of us. After that is the cutscene where Arthas dies, his father manifests from the broken blade, warns that "There must always be a Lich King", and Bolvar takes the helmet from Tirion and becomes the new Lich King. Now, the Lich King wielded borrowed powers that he did not even understand. And with those borrowed powers he murdered the strongest heroes Azeroth had, with ease. The Jailor is just... orders of magnitude more powerful. I'm trying to put things into perspective, the Jailor is like a god where the Lich King was a mere mortal, and that mortal annihilated the best Azeroth could offer. Now, since then we've actually killed gods. Well, one god at least, that being Argus, the spirit of the planet Argus, homeworld of the Draenei. But even then, the Jailor is a deadly threat commanding frightening powers. You asked if Sylvanas was being controlled by him. She was not. Not exactly. The Jailor lured Sylvanas in with promises, offering to change the cycle of life and death. Clearly the man never intended to fulfill his promise, but he managed to keep the ruse up so well that Sylvanas was captivated by the Jailors charisma and idealism. That's how they get to you. So everything Sylvanas has been doing has been due to blind zealous loyalty to a dream, an ideal that will never be fulfilled. I'm not ever going to excuse her actions and I dont think anyone is, despite how hard the writers at Blizzard is trying for a "she was good all along" story. But you should ask yourselves something important, based on these facts: Sylvanas spirit was shattered when Arthas killed her. The Sylvanas we know, the Banshee Queen, is a fragment of Sylvanas' soul. A dark, tortured, twisted fragment. The rest of Sylvanas' soul has been trapped in that gem the Jailor pulled out and crushed, and now the rest of Sylvanas can see the crimes she's committed. Yes, Sylvanas committed those crimes. At the same time, she also did not. IRL, we have laws for this kind of thing. Insanity pleas and the like. Personally? Regardless of state of mind, you need to be held accountable for what you did, at least since we know mind control or domination was not in play. Had it been mind control then it is easier to excuse and would be incredibly easy to write a redemption arc for her. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and she followed him loyally. What's terrifying is the reach the Jailor holds. He managed to make Sylvanas into warchief of the Horde at the start of Legion by tricking the dying Vol'jin into saying Sylvanas will be the next leader, because trolls speak to the "Loa" a cadre of demigods that exist inbetween realms. Emerald Dream, Shadowlands, Azeroth, they traverse all of those places, and the Loa of Death is on the Jailor's side and thus whispered "Sylvanas" to the dying Vol'jin. Sylvanas has been manipulating things for so long. As long as people died, its fine because the more people die, the stronger the Jailor becomes and in turn, Sylvanas' powers through her pact with him would also grow. Sylvanas at the end of the Lich King expansion would've been annihilated by our favourite grumpy orc Varok Saurfang. Or at the very least it would've been a really tough battle for her. But with so many people dead from both Legion and Battle for Azeroth, including two entire cities filled with civilians, the Jailor and Sylvanas were at their peak strength which is also why she managed to defeat the second Lich King Bolvar mere hours after fighting Saurfang. Anyway I'm rambling. There's more to the Shadowlands, a secondary story not really told as much as explored, and also the underlying key to why Sylvanas hates the Shadowlands and "the machinery of life and death". The key is in that statement. "Machinery" specifically. Way, way waaaaaaaay back, it turns out some ancient species called The First Ones came about and BUILT the Shadowlands. They created this structured, organized "machinery" of death, where souls would be neatly sorted into categories and funneled through the cyclical nature of life and death. Essentially the First Ones made Death into a slave for Life. Sylvanas, being dead, clearly hates that notion of being subservient, this is tainted of course by her enslavement to Arthas before she broke free of his control. (You can thank Illidan for that, btw. Long story.) She's been massively big on freedom of will ever since, but it seems this desire only extends to herself given what she's done to the boy king Anduin. I'm sorry I cant really shed a whole lot more light on specifics in regards to the Shadowlands. Since I havent played it all I know is generalized theories and the bigger plot points. Even so, there's so much story just to draw conclusions from because of the past story that I'm 88% confident what I've said is relatively accurate. I might be using wrong terminology and you'll see people coming out the woodwork to correct me on some things like "Titans arent gods" in reference to Argus, but its whatever. To the Dwarves of Azeroth, Titans ARE gods, so I'm in the clear on that one.

[@miriamweller812]

Argus would have utterly slaughtered you even just being a shade without the support of several other gods. I would not really call it "you killed a god". It was more a gameplay thing, since it would be pretty boring if just the other Titans stop their brothers, twice. So they channel their power through you. Same for example with N'Zoth. The actual adventure was fighting the insanity and to survive the way to it to place the marker so Azeroth's self defense system can take it out. Of course regarding gameplay, this is sold as boss fights, but you don't just poked N'Zoth to death.

[@HipHopJUVIE]

Those cosmological forces like the Jailer, could also be seen as ideologies. We can get corrupted by a toxic ideology and act in ways that we later regret. Are we the ones making those actions? Yes and no And how Anduin said: Everytime he dominates his will, he is less of himself. Just how acting on said ideology or toxic behaviour, gets you accustomed to it, changing you. I didn't really like the shadowlands storyline at first however, have started enjoying it more and more. Fingers crossed for an epic ending to it. :D

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

True. Never good to let one thing be a driving force in all decisions and actions 🙂

[@BHMTH19B]

ok so some claryfing on sylvanas story : after she was killed by arthas ,he transformed her into a banshee without a body. arthas was furious with her for oposing him and being a forest general( hightest rank in high elfs army, she did a pretty good job at it, but arthas forces where too much for the elfs. at that time she was bound to arthas/lich king`s will as all the undead where. in the secound expansion of the warcraft 3 called the frozen throne lich king starts to lose power and control over the undead due to a crack in the frozen throne that was made when he separeted the sword arthas is weilding in order to find its way in the hands of arthas. lich king had it all planned out. in that time sylvanas somehow finds her body and break the bond that tied her to lich kings will. and she appears as a new hero. in undead campaing in warcraft 3, frozen throne its slashed in 2. 1 following the arthas story witch goes back to northrend to defend the frozen throne ( cause ilidan was comming after him) and secound part following sylvanas story. there 2 kinna switch around while playin. 1 mision arthas secound mision sylvanas.etc. anyway, after sylvanas broke free she was still an undead and start claiming the lands witch surounded lordaeron , now that arthas has gone to northrend. Fighting 3 demon lords for the ultimate king of the lands. she enslave 1 of them and kils the 2 others thus makeing her the queen of the lands. and all the undead that broke free they called themselfs the forsaken. so yes , all she did after that was her and her only, but now aparently wokezard is pusshing that it was her ¨evil¨ side. makes sense but still crappy story excuse to push more of the woke agenda. and from what i saw there is a lot more to come

[@Valkyrioneu]

Absolutely agreed. I'm kinda sick of this twisting and making things go back to the modern black and white morales (big suprise, world is full of greys and rarely black and whites - also introducing our real world morales into fantasy settings is herecy and stupidity). If people are willing (unfortunately not many are), you could look through all the information and hints that are given in the game, books and story overall and you can start to understand even Sylvanas' point of view and motivations. Sometimes bad things are necessary to achieve something ultimately good (history is full of such events, unfortunately modern history is tought in weird way). I'm not saying that ends justify the means in general, absolutely not, but sometimes there is no other way. Demonizing the "bad Sylvanas" will ruin the storyarc of the character and I'm personally really affraid that the new self-pitty they are introducing will ruin entire character and legacy of her.

[@Seta1988]

The Lich King, before fusing with Arthas was losing his powers, because Illidan and his forces were attacking Ice Crown on Kil'jaeden's command, for the betrayal of the Burning Legion. As he failed that, it was also Illidan's reason to flee to outland fearing Kil'Jaeden wrath.

[@OGEETOMO]

Anduin may actually turn into a shadow priest it was foreshadowed in one of the books where he crys a tear of pure shadow.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😯

[@epic-o2215]

my other comment was way too long, so making a separate one for the end of the video Your last questions regarding good vs bad Sylvanas: There is no good vs bad Sylvanas, it's just always been 1 Sylvanas, but with pieces of her soul missing. A way that might help to picture it is when a person is sleepwalking or suffering from a tumor that affects their judgment. Sylvanas seems to lack empathy and compassion and has poor judgment. Without these elements, she is a very "the ends justify the means" type of person, whereas Sylvanas with all of her soul is more "the ends don't justify the means".She has clearly hinted about fate limiting their choices and free will (free will has been a theme with her since warcraft 3) in some capacity, and probably in time we will find the parts of her ideals and efforts that were actually accurate and worth revising, in an sea of regretful choices...but still. There are people with brain tumors who go on to commit terrible crimes, until the tumor is removed, they are aware of what they did at all times, but with the tumor they have no guilt or remorse, and are suddenly stricken with it once the tumor is removed, this is that kind of situation, but with soul torment instead of brain tumors. So going forward there isn't going to be a dual personality sylvanas helping us, it's just the one with a ton of guilt and remorse that she is finally able to feel. You know, a wider range of emotions. TLDR, shes still very guilty.

[@gorgeouszan]

Her soul, like Uther's was severed. It seems that when both Uther and Sylvanas were killed by Frostmourne (and Sylvanas raised) their souls weren't consumed but split and what was left behind was their base self, a variant of themselves that was a focus on animosity, anger, unable to be tempered by conscience. For example in the Uther Afterlives video when he threw Arthas into the Maw it shocked everyone heavily because that is not who Uther was, known for his compassion and seeing what happened to Arthas he wouldn't have done that.

[@stanleyho8009]

Sylvanas is just a strong character manipulated by death constantly into a tragic evil character. She has been there for decades of WoW lore and since she became mind-controlled by the Lich King she already lost her real self. When she broke free and lived as a banshee she was still ‘controlled’ by death in a way, because the way she was controlled by the Lich King and was made to live as an undead still fueled her fears and anger. Which is also the starting point to making a deal with the Jailer and actually still being a pawn.

[@KavinduLakshan]

Tnx for this reaction I'm enjoying watching this with you guyz 😎

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😀🥳🤗

[@tkathgar]

one thing noone has quantified is how much effect it has when frostmourne kills you and steals a part of your soul.

[@Legendary1xandir]

Sylvanas isnt being controlled. yall wont know this but if you go back to when the Lich King was defeated she stands at the edge of icecrown citadel and thinks to herself that shes done shes got her revenge and now she can rest or some thing to that effect. she then jumps off the edge of the tower and when she dies shes confronted by Valkyre (dont judge my spelling) and they show her what fate awaits her in the after life. Basically hell for her. So a Valkyrie takes her place in hell so she can continue to exist. Its been speculated that this is also when The jailor got her on his side.

[@jadenbrown1062]

you guys are doing great! Such great reaction! Love u guys

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks so much! 😀🥳🥳

[@Shiftry87]

13:00 This part is a little wierd to say the least but to just expain what was happening there. Elune the Night elf god have over the course of many many millenium chosen different caracters that have asked her for the power of the "Night Warrior" when the Night elf race was in dire need of it. In a previous cinematic Tyranda asked and was granted the power of the night warrior. But there is a catch like always. the chosen Night warrior are given so mutch power that they can essentially kill themselfs while using it. Every night warrior have ultimatly ended up doing just that and the phrase Tyrande spoke at 14:18 roughly translates to "Her life for mine" Tyranda will do whatever is needed to kill Sylvanas and knows that she will die as a result just like every night warrior before her. Elune seeing all of this for more then just a single battle acts and takes away her powers or restricts them temporarily not willing to give up her champion yet. There are some theorys out there why Elune would grant Tyranda the power in the first place fully knowing that Tyranda only ever wanted revenge on Sylvanas and then take it away from her. Alot is up in the air but it is belived that Elune seeing the mutch bigger picture here is not willing to sacrifice Tyrande as a cost of killing Sylvanas. It´s not like Elune can just apoint a new Night warrior. Becoming the Night warrior in the first place is very dangerous and the survival rate in the power transition is very low.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks for explaining that bit better to us 😊

[@ChiefBigBeef]

Yes I love it when you guys react to WoW stuff!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

🥰🤗🥳

[@theGabbynaut]

and in the next patch. the title for the guild who kill the jailer in Mythic Mode and enter in the top 100 Hall of Fame is: Famed Slayer of Zovaal the Jailer. and yes. is a competition. we call "race to world first" :D.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😎🤟😀

[@xavier84623]

4:35 it’s called a moon beam 😊

[@smoogieboogie1694]

I don't know if someone has summarized Genn Greymane (the old man who can turn into a wolf) to you yet, but I really want to if not. Because I love this character. And it makes Anduin's kidnapping even more awful. Greymane is the king of a kingdom called Gilneas. A long time ago they withdrew from the rest of the Alliance behind a giant wall. However, the Gilnean people soon succumbed to the Worgen curse (just think werewolves). During the Cataclysm (the giant dragon breaking the world) the wall fell and the Forsaken (Sylvanas' people) took advantage to invade. With the help of the Night Elves, who were originally responsible for the creation of the Worgen (again, werewolf people) the Gilneans were able to control their rage and harness their new beastial forms to fight back against the Forsaken. However, Sylvanas blighted the town and also shot and killed Greymane's son. The Gilneans were forced to retreat with the Night Elves, and they rejoined the Alliance and settled the remainder of their genocided people in Teldrassil (the home of the Night Elves). So yes, when Sylvanas burned Teldrassil, she killed a bunch of Worgen once again. Greymane's wife, Queen Mia Greymane, almost died that day due to smoke inhalation until he carried her from the tree. And after Varian's death (which again, Greymane blames Sylvanas for) Genn and Anduin started an almost father-son bond, because Anduin had lost his father and Greymane had lost his son. And now, in Shadowlands, Sylvanas stole Anduin right in front of Greymane, thereby taking another son from him. So, in summary: 1) Sylvanas massacred the Gilnean people and poisoned their home, causing them to abandon it. 2) Sylvanas killed Greymane's son (and in his eyes was responsible for the death of Varian as well). 3) Sylvanas burned the Gilneans' second home, killing even more of them and almost killing Greymane's wife. 4) Sylvanas has now taken and corrupted Greymane's surrogate son. So Genn reeeeeally hates Sylvanas.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

He has legitimate beef and reason to hate her 😯😨

[@codychilds9349]

So happy for you to finally start learning some more about Tyrande Whisperwind!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

She is so cool 😀

[@Mic199582]

I hope we get to see Arthas in the ending of Shadowlands. Everyone still says he is a monster for what he has done, but he was under the same influence as Anduin. Arthas is my favorite character in warcraft. But just like Sylvanas and Anduin he was mind-controlled. There's even a heartbreaking moment when you defeat him in Icecrown in WOTLK expansion, when Jaina (his former lover) holds a pendant from his corpse which she gave him, remembering that there was still a fraction of him even when they say Arthas died the moment he put the lich king helmen on. #teamArthas :D

[@Seta1988]

Too bad, they didn't watch Uther's story more, that him casting Arthas in the Maw, wasn't justice, but vigilante justice.

[@leowee9122]

I don't think he was so straightforward mind-controlled as Anduin was. Arthas was more like his mind was being tortured by the whispers of the frostmourn, and gradually lost his will to the lich king.

[@Worbsters_Channel]

revenge and vengeance are both honey-sweet poison that kills one slowly. It tastes sweet in the beginning but ends up destroying you in the end.

[@miriamweller812]

It's so typical that dumb people don't get, how strong you have to be to now follow hate and rage, to give up on vengeance.

[@brandol75]

The 2 broblems about this expansion are that a) Blizzard tried to intruduce Zovaal (the jailer) as a master jenius villain with a 10000+iq plan (to use the dreadlords/vampiric-like creatues to manipulate Sargeras (the titan with the big sword) to start the burning legion) but we (the players/adventurers) beat him after literally 2 patches 🤨 and b) up antil the the point of zoval's take of the orb from the Arbiter, he appeared as a character that used various tactics to turn the Shadowlands back to a chaotic state, something new and interesting thought, became a dominate all character. Where have we seen this where ... 🤔ah yes 😀, nore than half wow bad characters, that had a build-up story beforehand 😡.

[@Nightwalk444]

7:40 so basically the person at they waystone is the player character.

[@mavis4718]

Thanks for watching this guys 😊

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Our pleasure 😊🥳🤗

[@lebac]

Playing horde for almost 20 years and someone just introduces some shit lore and suddenly you are bad guy. Love it.

[@Osfrie]

Important thing to remember, that some fans of the game seem to miss, is that Sylvanas WILL answer for her crimes. Every decision made since she broke free of Arthas' control, has been her own. It's not so much that we had a "bad" Sylvanas, now we have a "good" it's more that her conscience was returned to her. Her soul was reunited, reformed. The Ranger General cutscene is about how she was denying that was her because she would never do such things, but finally accepting it WAS her, it may no longer BE her but she WILL face the consequences. Minor Spoiler from the public test realm datamining: Last thing I saw in regards to this is that Sylvanas submits herself to Tyrande's judgement specifically. So we'll see what happens from that, whether it's been datamined yet I haven't seen, or maybe an encrypted cutscene will take place. But we won't know until... hopefully sometime in Feb (is when people are guessing 9.2 will arrive)

[@mjtechnoviking44]

Press F for eternal torment.

[@Martin-ld6uo]

Osfrie Who are you kidding, Steve Danuser is obsessed with Sylvanas, there will be no consequences for her, all will be forgiven and in the end she will save the world.

[@chamathnadeeshan4008]

There are 2 WTF movement in this part of story. 1. Genn literally stand doing nothing when they kidnap Anduin. But this does make scene because there was a removed plot Genn trying to steal the crown. But it was removed. 2. Elune have a hand in burning of Teredessil....I know we heard stories of gods killing Thier followers for their own benefits....but.....common....this is bad...... As I see, you guys know well how story went now. About Sylvannus. Her soul is not split to 2 sides. Just 2 parts. 1 had to go through all things, and other was prisoned in that soul prison (crystal). 1:53 other than Bolvar there are 2 other deathKnights. Nazgrim (orc) - he's the orc in Pandaria Cinematic, he was killed during Garrosh's Tyranny, in Legion he was raised as a deathKnight by players. Sally Whitemane (women) - she was former co-leader of Scarlett crusade. Scarlett crusade is very interesting organisation with huge Backstory since beginning of wow to Pandaria events, they sworn to destroy all undead from Azorath. Sadly their main leader got processed by demon Balnazzar and entire organisation got wiped out. In Legion she was ressurect by players. 2:26 apart from Tyrande, her adapted Daughter "Shalandris Feathermane" seen in back. She was absent from cinematics but she played big role in Shadowlands. 2:34 next to Jaina there is "Talia Fordragon". Daughter to Bolvar Fordragon, she thinks her father is dead, she didn't know he is Licking. 2:39 next to Bain it is Maila Highmoutain. Leader of Highmoutain Tauren and play big part during Legion. Later married to Bain in BFA. 2:46 Thrall and his wife Aggra. They also present in Cataclysm cinematics. 4:00 poor Nathanos. He's heartbroken. Listen to dialogue again and you can see. Nathanos is the only human to join ranks of rangers in elven kingdom. And became Sylvannus love interest. He was killed when Arthas destroy Loredron and raised as a mindless undead. After Sylvannus broken free from Arthas, she found Nathanos and work hard to make him more human again. 6:28 this is after we defeat Danathrius and trap his soul in his own blade Ramonia. Venthyr scared of light, that's why they use a Narru to trap him. 7:10 this happen when we initially tried to rescue the kidnapped leaders. But we fail there as you see. 9:24 Zoval use now corrupted Anduin to get the sigil from the Archon. One of 4 keys he need to escape the Maw. He took Primus' key later. Danathrius already had given him his key. The only remaining one is Winter Queen. 12:27 Maw forces invade Ardenweld to get the last key. You can see just before Sylvannus tried to escape, Tyrande look for something. That's the movement Jailor got the lat key. Another interesting thing is, Elune remove her power when Tyrande about to kill Sylvannus.... almost like she want her alive. 15:30 nothing much, self explanatory 16:56 Zoval escaped the Maw and goto Arbitor and steal his missing peace. He reach his full power. Sylvannus betrays him and he release her soul piece. 19:22 Elune possess Tyrande and talk with her Sister and we found out Teredessil events actually happened because she wanted it?...what a god. So anyway they forge another tear of Elune there, if you remember tear of Elune on Azorath is use to kill Yesara In Legion. Since story is going, Who is Zoval is kind of unknown. But here what we know about story so far. story of Zoval and Dreadlords and connection to Sylvannus : Zoval is one of first ones created by some unknown force. Along with his 4 siblings Danathrius, Primus, Winter Queen and Kyrestia the Archon. His duty was to judge souls and give them to his siblings. For some reason his siblings bannish him and Trap him in Maw, replaced his role with a new being called Arbitor. But Danathrius didn't exactly like this decision and he wants to help Zoval. He secretly create a new race for his brother we now known as Dreadlords, very cunning, can shapeshift and masters of manipulation. But this plan failed and others found about this race. Danathrius blamed it on creators and banish these beings from Shadowlands. Dreadlords found a planet full of fel magic and rest there until they meet Sargeras. And they join Sargeras' Burning legion. If you remember, Dreadlords are the brains of Burning Legion. When Kiljaeden give poor Nerzul to Dreadlords and orders them to turn him into a agent of legion on Azorath, they actually turn him into the first Licking. And Licking only answer to Zoval. They create the Helm based on Zoval's magic. Narzul failed what Zoval wanted, then Arthas took the helm and almost won, but defeated again. Then Bolvar took helm and he's able to resist Zoval's death magic because of life energy of Dragon's flames. Meanwhile Sylvannus suicide on Icecrown, and she went to Zoval because of she too once completed by Zoval's power. Zoval made a deal with Sylvannus. And one of nine Arthas' Valkyr sacrifices herself to Zoval to bring Sylvannus back to life. After this point, Sylvannus they to stay alive and everytime she die, Arthas' Valkyrs sacrifices themselves to save her. This is why she tried to Capture more Valkyrs in legion cinematic. To stay alive. Not to goto Zoval again. Meanwhile, We kill Argus and Argus' soul reach Arbitor and disables it. And now all souls goto Zoval. And he will eventually break free. (People have issue that, Argus is not a mortal to goto Shadowlands, how a titan soul goto Arbitor. Some speculate it is Dreadlords fuel Argus with Zoval's magic to make this happen) So Sylvannus fully gaveup on staying alive and working of giving many souls to Zoval as possible. Ultimately she use Licking's helm to open the gateway to Shadowlands.

[@miriamweller812]

Glenn CAN do SHIT. Those are maw powered angels. What shall he do?

[@chamathnadeeshan4008]

@@miriamweller812 It's not about if he can stop them, it's about the attempts. At least transform to his battle form. Wogens have instinct to transform when they feel treat. Also my point about the removed plot about Genn aiming for crown. It was removed after 9.1, that's why those books still there in game. Also Genn betrayed alliance 3 times at this point. Obviously because someone convinced him, stil he did it. Missing plot is also about remaining Scarlett crusade followers manipulate Genn to create another fanatic crusade. It's a justification of why he didn't tried anything. Cause of plot change

[@alanea5860]

6:15 yes its for teldrassil ... that guys was sylvanas bodyguard/ lover she chasing them down because they burned big tree which served as capital city for their race = teldrassil

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks! 🙂

[@Azarian771]

Well for Sylvanas as far as we know it's all her decisions up until now, she never been under control of anyone after she broke free of the Arthas and made her own faction of the Undead, which essentially worship her cause she was the first Undead to break free of the "Mind Control" of the Lich King, though what's funny is that, Arthas who's always hated in the story by all of the story characters, had actually realistically been totally mind controlled from the point where he picked the Frostmourne which is the sword and Jailer directly controlled 'him' directly through the sword, of course that doesn't totally cleanse all of Arthas's sins either since he had done many horrible things before then but before Frostmourne his actions were at least justified since he was just a hotheaded prince consumed by vengeance. As someone who's a really obsessed Warcraft fan and was like this since Warcraft III, watching them fighting with teeth and claws to redeem Sylvanas while Arthas who's narratively been a much bigger victim be constantly scolded by the characters in the story because of the things he actually didn't do with 100% of his free will, makes me cringe a little bit. What also makes me even more mad is that they teased Arthas with the Afterlives cinematic at the beginning of the expansion, then kept mentioning him throughout the expansion but they never even gave us the 'slightest' of hints of him in game, literally nothing to make us at least go: "Oh... okay, at least he's having a normal afterlife." He's literally 'gone' while the other story characters continue scolding him even after his death, and even watching Anduin go through the 'literally' the same, even visually the same type of domination, but they don't even stop to think for more than five seconds that 'maybe' Arthas wasn't in control either, NOT EVEN JAINA WHO'S BEEN THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE DOES THAT, apparently Anduin is the good guy golden boy and Arthas will forever be the most obvious bad guy of Warcraft to point fingers at whenever they lack a villain, despite him being literally one of the most popular characters in Warcraft franchise alongside Illidan.

[@andypickle1584]

While I can agree that Sylvanas's decisions have been her own, I still see her from the early point of view. One of my early characters was undead. Sylvanas and all of the Forsaken were treated as Scourge. When she joined forces with humans to retake Lorderon from the dreadlords, afterwards the humans turned on her. She had taken one of the dreadlords and made him kill the other two to prove his loyalty. However, because of shitty writing, they were not killed but simply respawned in the burning Legion. Said dreadlords then turned on Sylvanas during the whole wrathgate story. From the Forsaken point of view, Sylvanas made them into a nation. The humans who were their family in life wouldn't accept them. The only reason they joined the Horde was to have some protection from the Alliance. Up to that point, I saw the Forsaken as the cast offs from the Lich Kings Scourge army and we all fought the bad guys. Horde and Alliance both through each expac. Then there was Garrosh. From the beginning, he was a hothead. He wanted to kill all alliance. To rule through strength. Thrall was the savior and diplomat. When Garrosh was Warchief, he would threaten Sylvanas. Pushed her into attacking Gilneas. The writers changed Sylvanas into the next bad guy, step by evil step. Arthas, imo was good, but didn't listen to reason when Jaina and Uther didn't back him. He murdered the city of Stratholm because to him, they were already corrupted by the Scourge plague. He seized Frostmourne, because to him it meant the power to slay the dreadlords he met in Stratholm. These were his bad choices. Not really what I'd call paladin like behavior. Basically, Uther was Obiwan, and Arthas was Anakin. Sylvanas when she jumped off Ice Crown, found out she would spend eternity in the Maw. This is what she thought was unfair. She, at the time of WotLK, had fought and died for the High Elves, fought for the Forsaken and Horde, and was to spend the afterlife in torment for what the Lich King had done? Unfair. Maybe that was her driving force after the Val'kyr brought her back. Everyone has their favorites. Just about every character is tarnished in the story. Even Jaina executed the Sunreavers in Dalaran because they let Garrosh's agents bring the bell through her city. Jaina and Tyrande both have become agents of vengeance. Genn I don't like but reactors are "ooh, he has pretty fur". Well, Genn built a big wall to shut out the Lich King. They abandoned the people of Lorderon. Now, Genn acts just like Garrosh did in negotiations. Growl.....I hate them......no deal. I like Anduin and even though he is a priest, he is more of a pally than Arthas ever was.

[@bloodphoenixab]

A lot of people forget that Genn (Old Wolf) screwed over the Forsaken during Legion which only further pushed Sylvanas over the edge and made her easier to manipulate by the Jailer. One does have to wonder if she had successfully gotten the Val'kyr under her control what would have happened. Some bits you missed from BFA include the Loyalist specific scenes, the rise of Calia Menithil (Arthas's sister), and you might want to look into Nathanos and how he turned from a rotting ghoul into a fairly human looking undead dude.

[@milchteexoxo3515]

20 years of writing just came to an end! Can't wait to see y'all react to the ending cinematics

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We will be checking it out for sure 🙂

[@RazanaArcclaw]

Now that you two are all caught up on wow, here is something you two should check out next Pokemon! Pokemon Twilight wings and Pokemon Generations These two series of animations on youtube are amazing, generations is really cool and goes over the general lore of each generation, while twilight wings tells a really sad and emotional story of a kid who wants to become the very best.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

That’s something we never got aboard when it came out so checking it out now would be interesting 🙂

[@ianbruce1745]

Helsreach reaction soon I hope, love y'alls reactions! Keep up the good work :D

[@davidr3146]

Absolutely, they need to watch that. That and "The Last Church".

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks! We do want to check that series out at some point 😅

[@itztehendd]

I'd love to see yall react to more Destiny 2 stuff on the lead up to the Witch Queen in February!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We do plan to check out some more stuff leading to the release 😇

[@lordmortarius538]

Sylvanas looked regretful because she has done to Anduin what the Lich King did to her: bound him against his will to serve evil.

[@johnj4471]

* what we think is evil. The story is getting cut short but there is enough evidence that the 4 covenant leaders are just blindly following their creators path set out for them and they turned on Zovaal when he told them the cycle of life and death was unfair to the souls involved. Whether the story ends that was or not it’s clear they originally intended on it turning out we were the bad guys.

[@White_Wizard]

@@johnj4471 Jailor literally said everyone will serve him, so thats his final aim. Kinda evil Blizzard made the try, like we're bad guys and Jailor/Zovaal isnt. But they made him so bad and boring like the charachter, so now he's just supreme evil, at least for now (I mean, maybe not supreme in the universe, but for us right now) Even Denathrius was done much better as person, who is also a new charachter since Shadowlands. There was an interesting story idea, but Blizzard failed it

[@johnj4471]

@@White_Wizard he said that only in that one case which he had every right to. He’s not the villain

[@Machete__Squad]

@@johnj4471 Yes he is the villain, and a boring poorly written villain at that. He is a poorly fleshed out character they are forcing into past lore by retconning and harming previous well written story arcs.

[@johnj4471]

@@Machete__Squad ah ok you haven’t played the game and think he’s poorly written. Cute.

[@Zoggwogg]

A minor note, it's explained out of a cutscene by Uther (the blue guy who talked to sylvanas in the last cutscene), that the part of her soul that was restored wasn't like the "good" sylvanas, but rather a portion of her consciousness frozen in time. The Ranger General is Sylvanas as she used to be, being horrified by the person she became. The end of the cutscene is her accepting responsibility for her own actions and facing whatever consequences may come forward.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

That makes Sylvanas much less capable of redemption unfortunately. At least in our opinion 🤗

[@ScepticLlama]

World class Weirdos time. I got my drink ready, lets watch some Warcraft!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😎🤟🥳🍻🍾🥂

[@ScepticLlama]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames you guys have become a part of my daily viewing experience 😊 glad i found this channel randomly

[@Qprah]

The soul split that Sylvanas went through is described as not being good half/bad half. Its described her as a victim of severe abuse where people will often become a vastly different person after it because of trauma and ptsd etc. When Zovaal the Jailer returned that other part of her soul to her, it was as if the version of her that existed before she was killed, tortured, controlled, abused was then forced to witness herself committing all the horrendous acts she had done so in her undeath from the moment she died until that point. Its not so much that there is a duel control thing like Bruce Banner / The Hulk; more so that the part of her that is capable of feeling positive emotions was forced into a crash course of her life and is now forced to choose weather to accept what she has done so that she can help stop Zovaal's plans, or continue to refuse to take responsibility for what she has done. Ive seen it described as having a photo taken of you, and then suffering years of abuse and trauma and having that make an impact on the sort of person you are, then having someone be able to bring that version of you in the photo to life and have it see what it would become in the future. The version of you in the photo never had any say in doing the things you may have done after being abused, but now that its being reunited with this darkened version it has to accept that this is who you are now. To stay in denial of what her death, trauma and abuse turned her into is what keeps her unconscious, and is exactly what the Jailer intended for her to suffer through for the rest of her existence. If she had refused to accept who she is and what she had done, she would be dooming herself to this new torture of suffering through those traumas all over again for eternity and in doing so prevent the players from stopping the jailer complete the plans that she had helped him progress so far through. The Tyrande story is basically that after the tree was burned and the night elves were genocided, Tyrande used very dangerous magic to supercharge herself so that she could enact vengeance onto Sylvanas. However that power was constantly growing and was slowly killing Tyrande as well. Throughout the expansion you learn about and meet many others who took on that power and how it ended up killing all of them, or making them so dangerous they became a threat to their loved ones and ended up turning them into a villian that their loved ones were forced to kill. Tyrande is the chosen favorite child of Elune, the goddess who gave her the power, and so when Tyrande says she is ready to die to get the vengeance her people want she turns into an anime character who can fly through the sky like a missile. However right before she is able to kill Sylvanas, Elune withdraws the power to prevent Tyrande killing her, knowing that if she had killed her she'd have ended up dying herself. In the end Elune projects herself through Tyrande's body to talk to the heroes and her sister The Winter Queen and explains her actions and why she has done the things she has done, like letting her favorite species (the night elves) get genocided when its been seen before she is very capable of preventing such things from happening. We find out that she allowed the night elves to die so that she could try to save her sister, which then backfires when all the souls she offered get detoured straight to the Jailer. The Winter Queen forgives her sister and they together let Tyrande choose if she wants to continue chasing Sylvanas, knowing it will kill herself too, or if she is willing to let go of the vengeance so that she can look after the remaining members of her people, which she does.

[@MrZeuz666]

Nicely written excuse for Blizzard's writing. Now I'm not saying what you wrote doesn't make sense. It does. But some of it is slightly wrong and all of it is neither shown, printed out somewhere or implied to us in-game or other sources. Fans always come up with better solutions, directions and ways to tell the story than Blizzard themselves. But in the end many if not most of us are tired of Blizzard's low quality/low output, some really shitty developers and cold + cynical game design. With predatory monetization and a truely creepy CEO. No matter how hard you try to make it better in your own head. I don't know your history with the game, but either way, if things continue the same way. Even you will leave in the end. Call it a prophecy!

[@Eloryan]

Thank you for this summary ! It's exactly that :)

[@MrZeuz666]

@@Eloryan It isn't "eactly that" though. It's what you want it to be. Headcannon.

[@Eloryan]

@@MrZeuz666It's just that you don't realize it. You are not very insightful.

[@MrZeuz666]

@@Eloryan - Waow, just waow...

[@nakenmil]

24:47 When I first heard Uther's speech here, I honestly felt like it was a kind of editorial or metatextual comment from Blizzard itself. Blizzard's reputation as an employer and service-provider has really gone into the toilet over the last few years, and many former fans have completely written them off (for not-insubstantial reasons). In addition to this, of course, some people just really don't like the direction of WoW itself, in terms of game design and story writing. Uther's comments about moving on and and not looking back, etc. to me kinda felt like a nudge at the players to give Blizzard-the-company another chance. Having Sylvanas herself, kind of a poster child for why many people don't like the story direction, say that she cannot be forgiven while also kinda pushing her in a redemption arc feels a bit like a cheap cop-out, and having an old fan-favorit character like Uther reach out and say "give her a chance", ostensibly to the other characters in the scene, but ultimately to the players watching the cutscene, also feels manipulative to me, to be honest. As I said, probably over-analyzing, and projecting a bit, but it's difficult to not be cynical about this anymore, unfortunately. (That being said, the claims that WoW prior to this was amazingly written, that some people seem to make, is just factually wrong. I won't bore people with details, but Blizzard always had a penchant for just going "lol, let's retcon this character and let's just kill off someone and then bring them back and let's have people fighting for no particularly compelling reason." Warcraft is obviously first and foremost pulpy fun, not highbrow stuff.)

[@miriamweller812]

The lawsuit is a joke. Sorry, but what you got there is just the norm wherever a bigger group of peopel are together. Differences in wages? Completely normal when it's all about how much you want and not about the state telling how much has to be paid (and then it's just that, no chance to get more). The suicide is terrible, but had nothing to do with Blizzard and likely not even work. You don't just kill yourself over one odd relationship, there are many other problems involved. Other things are just a joke. Cubicle crawling? That's just a relaxed work atmosphere. The stuff with the stolen breast milk? Sorry, sounds super fake and if I would have a much bigger problem in someone putting their body fluids into the office refridgerator. When I still breast feed my child I would at best work from hom anyway and when you stop, you should not use the pump the whole day, because then the body thinks it shouldn't stop to produce milk. The whole stories are such terrible hear say, but people just love their with hunts. Other companies ARE far worse than that, but no one gives a fuck. California got a massive problem with hundredsthousands homeless people - but of course it's more important to care about some "frat buy culture" what this even should mean. People act as if there was actual rape or sexual assault happening. There wasn't. Even if the bullshit story of the "Cosby Suit" would be true it would at worst be bad humor. NO ONE was raped there or alike. People hurt real rape victims with this bullshit and that's just disgusting.

[@xavier84623]

The jailer is great. They really tied the lore together well all the way back from Warcraft 3 and explaining the origins of arthas sword. There has always been death magic and even there are some free undead, but there has also been this darker side of binding souls and undead to your will. Then they reveal the jailer, who was an asshole so the other death gods gave him the job of being the keeper of hell, but he has to live there also. So he has become the master of chains essentially, forever keeping souls in the worst hell they have, the maw. Subtly he used his magic to control people and influence events to orchestrate his escape, and then he basically wants everything imprisoned under his will.

[@miriamweller812]

Indeed, the people who yell at it just WANT to yell at it. Everything makes much more sense now. Neither Order nor Fel had anything to do with undead or domination. Death and its Necromancy did. It also finally gives much more needed background to the Dreadlords and made them look for more competent than before, having reached several goals instead of always instantly failing. Regarding Zovaal: it's not clear yet what he wanted to reach the first time but the other death gods did not just give him that job, THEY or better the Primus invented Domnination magic to force him into that job. But yes, he then learned to use these chains they had used to bind him there - plus stealing a big part of his souls to run that Robot which replaced him.

[@terlondre]

Since you have ran out of official cinematics, you could give some content creators like Captain Grim or CarbotAnimations. Though many of them are filled with inside jokes that might go over your head. Weather or not Sylvanas was conscious, and to what degree is a tough question and reason for that lie beyond the fourth wall. (Activision)Blizzard often changes its narative and canon "on the go". Though the inconsistency and contradictions plagued Warcraft in the past, it has become much more prominent in recent years with major personal changes. As new writers and designers come and go, the story shifts. Many characters can start to feel schyzophrenic. Burning of Teldrassil had such an impact not because thousands died (after all in game called "WARcraft" death is something you get in abundance) but because it was unexpected. Sylvanas was one of the dark characters and did a lot of bad things but not inherently evil. Her choices were driven necessity and she was shown to genuinely care for the Forsaken (risen dead who broke free from Lich King's grasp) and to a degree even cared for Sin'dorei (Blood elves, remnants of the realm she lived in and died for). Yet in one of the official posts Blizzard claimed that she was conscious and 100% hers. Now even that becomes contradicted by the last cinematic where it is shown that her soul and mind is split into two. By the way a book dedicated to Sylvanas is scheduled for release on 23rd March so more mess incoming.... From what can be pieced together: Frostmourne ('Lich King's sword) steals souls, that is the old canon. Most just become mindless husks but some strong willed individuals retain some consciousness and parts of their individuality, leaving "bad" parts like hate. The shard that Jailer ("Jailer" is a cognomen, his name is Zovaal) sort of shot back into her is the stolen part of her soul, making her whole again. So the 50% of her that burned Teldrassil was 100% conscious, but it wasn't 100%. there are so many holes in this, like "why wasn't she all evil the whole time?" "was Zovaal eating away at her soul trough time, and if so then how, since he has no direct link to her?" and so on.... Not to mention that there was no prior mention of this Zovaal. The existance of Shadowlands contradicts the Warcraft's on going dogma of Light vs. Void. How could demons use souls as a fuel when all souls get shiped to Shadowlands after death. The whole Nathrezim twist (you won't see that one in cinematics)..... But to be honest, everything after Wrath of the Lich King seams like a fanfiction On the side note, the "cascade" they speak of in 19:20 .... Elune and Winter queen are sisters, it is hinted that Elune let the elves at Teldrassil die so that their souls (refered to as "anima") would go to her sister and ease the drought. They would save the souls that are to be reborn and as the cycle of life and death goes on, would be reborn eventually themselves. Not knowing Zovaal would claim them. P.S. I've played Warcraft games since the very first game and was invested in the story ever since. Sylvanas is by far my favorite character. Unlike many other, her character was complex and retained depth. Characters like Anduin come off as flat. He is a boy scout who is always good, there is not much room for development there. Others on the other hand are overused and "overdeveloped", like Jaina or thrall. Blizzard used Jaina as an "Aliance cheerleader" for so long that it outshined other characters who didn't get enough room and were slowly forgotten. This also made these characters suffer for the schizophrenia i spoke about earlier, their characters shifting as the writers come and go. Blizzards decision to turn Sylvanas into major villain out of nowhere and inevitably killing her off was a real bummer. There are so many typos and gramatical errors here, i apologise for that as i am not native to English. It was actually my interest i Warcraft stories that made me learn English when i was a kid and playing World of Warcraft with people from all around the Europe that gave me enough exercise to get good at it

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

No need to apologize for typos! English is our first language and we have them all the time 🤗

[@everforward5561]

"I will never serve." -said by elf who has served various beings most of her life.

[@mjtechnoviking44]

She went “down with the patriarchy” then spent the rest of her time serving worse systems.

[@miriamweller812]

You don't get the line, while Zovaal even makes clear what she meant. She just told him, that she does not care for power to be the mighty general at his side, she makes clear, that it's only and alone about freedom, about to break the machine and that his idea of 'enslaving everyone'... well, she IS part of this everyone and she does not take it, not for herself, nor everyone else. "This world is a prison - and I will set us all free." "This is beyond life and death, this is the only way to true freedom." "We never had free will - but this is about to change." It's there again and again and again and again. She was at Zovaal's side for that reason alone: to break the machine that in a way had enslaved both of them (he isn't the Jailer by choice, he was the original arbiter, the first who went against the machine and the very first victim of domination magic, he did not invent it, the Primus did and the Primus and other Eternals used it to chain him). When he tells her, the plan has changed, she simply tells him with this line, that this is not the case for her. He even is a little 'sad' about it, calling it 'a pity, but of course also gives a fuck about it and just pays her out.

[@everforward5561]

@@miriamweller812 Sylvanas stans really go out of their way.

[@derfritz4550]

@@miriamweller812 nah the jailer was the first arbiter yes but he decided to betray the others and was collecting souls just like he did now in shadowlands..he sentenced every soul arriving to end in the maw tried a first time to destroy the tomb of the first ones and got defeated and banished source: Leaks for the final content update

[@leonkennedy2502]

She didnit realize what she was till Uther told her soul to do betterand that were comes the Ranger General to know ... btw LOVE U 2 :)

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😊🤗

[@domdom3938]

So the last cinematic you saw of Tyrande and the Winter Queen, throughout the expansion we were slowly finding out that the Winter Queen's sister is Elune, the Moon Goddess that the Night Elves worship and have worshipped for the past 15 thousand years. The Winter Queen was super resentful and bitter about Elune at first throughout the story because as you heard, the anima drought happened, the forests were dying because of a lack of new souls supplying the anima, and the Winter Queen was in some manner speaking or calling out to her sister to help them with their crisis, and when the Burning of Teldrassil happened, Elune saw it as an opportunity to take all those night elven souls that perished at the tree and send them in like a little bundle straight to Ardenweald, bypassing the Arbiter which would've judged the souls fairly, though at the same time, the Arbiter was deactivated and all the souls would just automatically go into the Maw. Now, my likely theory is, since this hasn't been explained, that Elune sent forth the souls straight for Ardenweald, but somewhere along the way, the agents of the Jailer and the Maw have intercepted these souls and taken them to the Maw, as well. So the Winter Queen didn't get the souls and assumed her sister ignored her cries, which is why you earlier saw that she was unwilling in saving Ysera, the green dragon, as she referred to her as Elune's 'pet'. And so with Tyrande, after the Teldrassil burned down, the Alliance couldn't spare the troops to reclaim Darkshore, a coastland of one of the continents adjacent to Teldrassil, so Tyrande decided to perform a ritual calling onto Elune's dark side of the moon, her vengeance, her power, to avenge her people. So she got this power that was slowly consuming her as all Night Warriors (the ones who succeed in the ritual) end up dying to all the power since the power isn't meant for mortals to wield. And so she was slowly losing control of her power, which is why I believe her power just faded away when she was holding Sylvanas to the ground, and this all culminates in us finding other Night Warriors in the Shadowlands, people from various worlds and cultures that worship Elune who have once in life been a Night Warrior to try and split the power between them to contain it, which doesn't work, and this end in Elune 'arriving' (We never actually saw Elune in the game physically) by Elune possessing Tyrande's body and speaking to her sister, the Winter Queen. And then Elune shed a tear which is an actual tear of the goddess like the teardrop-shaped artifact you saw in Legion where Ysera got shot down by a corrupted version of a tear, and then upon her death, Elune cleansed that tear of its corruption.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Appreciate giving more context for that scene as they are characters w wha ent learned much about in our journey thus far 🙂

[@domdom3938]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames Tyrande had a whole distinct story in Legion that you guys missed out because it was hardly part of any of the cinematics, but the night elves have druids that believe in nature and the protection of it being absolute, or at least very very dear to them, for example Malfurion who you saw in one of the cinematics in BFA as he was that big bear that turned into a night elf afterward. Malfurion, just as a side note, is the husband of Tyrande. They are the leaders of the night elves, Tyrande representing the priesthood of Elune the Moon Goddess, and Malfurion representing the nature as an archdruid, nature that is often physically portrayed through the Wild Gods, demigods of life, each of them basically a patron deity of one animal on the planet, so you can see there being a lot of them. Now, the druids protect and learn from this parallel-to-azeroth realm called Emerald Dream. The true protectors of the Dream are Ysera and her green dragons, as well as Cenarius who is Elune's child, but Elune couldn't raise him so Ysera sort of adopted him (which links to why the Winter Queen may have called Ysera Elune's "pet"). So anyway, the Dream is its own realm, a sort of image of Azeroth if nature thrived without any external influences like man-made structures or corrupt forces. Now, the Old Gods corrupted the Dream itself long ago, and the corruption slowly consumed the dream and its inhabitants. Xavius the Satyr was sort of commanding the corruption which came to be known as the Emerald Nightmare as an opposite to the Dream (you saw him in the cinematics as he threw the corrupted tear of elune into Ysera, corrupting her). Now, back then, Malfurion was also taken by Xavius and began to be corrupted by the Nightmare, and Tyrande had to decide whether to continue chasing after her husband, or do her duty and try to save/stop Ysera. So Tyrande eventually chose to help Ysera despite fearing the worst regarding Malfurion, and you saw Tyrande in the death of Ysera's cinematic, she was one of the foremost elves in the beautiful white dress and the crescent moon headdress.

[@jasondeandulierjr.299]

It's looking more like Elune was the one that had Sylvanas have the tree be burnt, (Elune the goddess of those people) she said in that other cinematic that she was trying to send all those souls to her sister because of the drought they were having.

[@RatelRegalement]

Not quite I don't think - she didn't cause the burning, but once it was underway Elune chose (unaware of the details of Shadowlands events beyond 'help!') to send the souls through. Normally they'd remain as wisps. Unknown if Elune could have - or would have - prevented the attack at all. She may just have considered it part and parcel of life.

[@jasondeandulierjr.299]

@@RatelRegalement it's not really a evil or good type thing. They're cosmic entities that see beyond life and death.

[@jaybeebunuan5038]

I wish that they have gotten in detailed in the timelines of each cinematic for more intense purposes

[@shieldwallofdragons]

Great reaction...great story telling...for over a decade people have wanted a redemption for Sylvanas since she originally was not evil...it was Arthas that caused her to be so.

[@CondemnedInformer]

This is great story telling? Some okay moments, but far from 'great'.

[@christopherwyatt9754]

Tyrande as a night warrior always makes me think of Illadin as a demon hunter.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

💯

[@CrescentRuby]

The scene with 2 Sylvanas and the choice is more like: accept that there is no SHE. Accept what you did and live with the consequences. If she does not accept it, she won't awake at all. Only if she does she can help. Let's be real: what happened to Sylvanas was mental rape. It continued over 10 years and broke her beyond recognition. And she did it to someone else. Which broke her further. Not only to Anduin but to a lot undead since WoD. That's when she started to turn unwilling people. The trauma pack she bears has never been small. Dissociation is one of ways to deal with trauma. That's what we saw her doing in her mind.

[@motomoto3655]

So its finaly done 😌🙏🏻

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

☺️

[@Demorthus]

Only 4 mins in but I'm so happy ya'll added the clip with Nathanos and (more importantly) Tyranda! The Night Warrior :D Edit: This is one brief in-game cinematic I think you guys would like, it has to do with Garrosh - the warchief you may remember that went crazy in Mists of Pandaria; but his soul in the Shadowlands- kzbin.info/www/bejne/imK7k3WEdqyia8k

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks for sharing the link! 😀

[@emildrimbea3210]

moon godes name is Elune, she is the sister of Winter Queen, and I think in next pach we will fight with Anduin in the raid, hope we will save him, not to kill him, eve I am horde player

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😎👍🙂

[@VegardLa]

Nice, was hoping you would watch the rest :D

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😁😀

[@mothified1676]

6:03 he was undead, he doesn't care xD he died a long time ago. To him, death is a place

[@KdVSerpentinit]

With the journey at the current point in lore maybe there is a little time for a spin-off? There are some good fanmade videos out there. Some covering the lore, some other in cinematic style or music videos. And others just with little sketches. Too bad your audience is more of the english site because there are some good videos in german about lore, sketches and predictions too. Maybe you can start a let's play or best-of series in WoW. There a plenty of opportunities :)

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We plan to check out the complete history vid and also maybe do deep dives on characters or a full Lich King story reaction 😊

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

It was less good soul vs bad soul as much as "aspects Arthas found useful as a servant" vs. "parts that would have gotten in the way". So malice, cunning, drive, anger, etc..

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

I look at the Banshee Queen more as someone who has lost control in an emotional state and doesn't have that critical function, the voice in your head that tells you when you've gone too far. So every choice was made by Sylvanas, but I don't think she had the capacity to question herself or her actions. Two things I expect going forward: In the pre-Shadowlands novel, Thrall and a Horde envoy go to talk to Tyrande to sue for peace. Tyrande shuts him down thoroughly, and Thrall realises that what Tyrande wants is not remorse or reparations, but Sylvanas. He says to Tyrane, "I will bring you what is owed, then. I will not bring words or promises, I will bring you the head of Sylvanas Windrunner." The faintest trace of a smile appeared on Tyrande Whisperwind's face. "Do it, then, or never seek to speak with me again." Otoh, in the Tear of Elune cinematic, where Tyrande is freed from the Night Warrior's power, she appears to choose Renewal over Vengeance. So what I expect are: 1. The Alliance will try to put Sylvanas to trial, but Thrall will refuse them and deliver her to Tyrande. 2. Tyrande will not kill Sylvanas. If her focus is renewal, then the Ranger General of Silvermoon, who is the person that came the closest to stopping Arthas not once but twice, is just the kind of tool the Night Elves need. I expect Tyrande to make Sylvanas beholden as a servant to the Night Elves until they can rebuild to what they were before her. Probably starting with finding ALL the Night Elf souls in the Maw and Torghast (the player already brought a bunch to Ardenwealde) and then to protect and care for the living. The first thing Tyrande said to the Thrall and the Horde envoy was, “When you have washed the bodies of a thousand kaldorei burned and broken, when you have fallen to your knees and kissed the feet of a thousand mourning souls, when you look into their eyes and tell them ‘our Horde has changed’ and they believe you, only then will I accept your apology and treat you as my equal.” I think it would be fitting for Tyrande to force Sylvanas to make a similar pledge. Here's the whole passage: www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2611685-Do-you-think-Thrall-will-keep-his-promise-to-Tyrande-Whisperwind-regarding-Sylvanas

[@johnj4471]

No. It was just a split in 2. Had nothing to do with traits as both had the same traits. Proof is the soul he took from Uther was still good and we talk to him in the dungeon with ICC. By your logic that should have been a malicious Uther. The soul splits are literally 50/50 everything.

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

@@johnj4471 I don't think Uther's soul was split in the same way. I actually think the part of him that went to the Shadowlands was the part of it saved by the Light. He prays "Light save me" just before dying, and it's the Light and Death both pulling on his soul that split it. No other souls killed by Frostmourne were split like that, and certainly none went to the Shadowlands. They were all swallowed whole by the mourneblade. Sylvanas, otoh, was fully killed and absorbed by Frostmourne, and then Arthas specifically and spitefully brought her back to serve him and break the spirits of the High Elves. Arthas didn't try to raise Uther, he thought Uther had died like everyone else, so they couldn't have been split in the same way. Uther even says that her wound is deeper than his.

[@johnj4471]

@@Brooke-rw8rc it was literally the same split. The light has no say in the shadowlands much less if the light impacted either it would have been kyrian Uther. The light is only the light just as death is death. Two completely different cosmic forces.

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

@@johnj4471 You're not making sense. Sylvanas was split between Frostmourne and the Banshee Queen. That's why Zhoval had her soul shard. Uther was split between Frostmourne and being picked up by the Kyrian. That never happened with anyone else before or since. Sylvanas was specifically split and made into a banshee by the will of Arthas. Arthas still controlled both parts of her soul. She did NOT go to the Shadowlands. Uther seemed to have his soul torn in two, and one half of it was beyond Arthas' grasp and was taken by the Kyrian to the Shadowlands. Sylvanas soul split into blue and red. Uther's into blue and gold. Sylvanas split was "much deeper" than Uther's according to Uther himself. Aside from Frostmourne being involved and a soul being split, nothing about the two events turned out the same. Also, splitting a soul isn't the "normal" thing for Frostmourne to do because no one besides those two characters had it happen. So two unique events play out completely differently and the difference between them is even commented on by the people involved. So why do you think they were both the same, and why do you think Uther's soul being split had nothing to do with the Light trying to keep it from being sucked into Frostmourne? The Light can oppose the magic of Death, even in the Maw. Anduin showed that. Uther was a Paladin, much closer to the Light than a Priest in armor, and literally prayed "Light, save my soul" just before his soul split, half going into Frostmourne, and half literally being saved and being ferried to the Shadowlands.

[@Mirikal]

It is painful that I must echo Grand Apothecary Putress in relation to Sylvannas, as a loyal member of the Forsaken. "Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?". Sylvanas even shut down Anduin's attempts to reunite the living family members with their Forsaken relatives by betrayal and bloodshed. I don't care...we don't care what her excuses are. We don't care how guilty she feels. We should utterly forsake HER. Edit: In response to Bethany's question, Sylvanas was never controlled by the Jailer. There were tactical reasons behind the burning of Teldrassil, primarily that it was the last Alliance base on the continent. That doesn't get communicated in the cutscenes, however.

[@Osfrie]

She did let the meeting happen. She did allow the forsaken to reunite with their living families, if they accepted them. But then yeah, she killed them all, Forsaken and Human alike to avoid defectors in the future. Killed Calia Menethil in the process which I'm disappointed nothing more came of that... There were theories Calia might challenge Sylvanas' rule of the Forsaken because Undercity (Lordaeron) was formerly ruled by Calia's father who was murdered by her brother Arthas.

[@miriamweller812]

Do you think she cares? From her PoV, from the PoV of seeing ALL of it, life is pointless anyway. It's only a flicker - followed by eternity of being abused - at max throwing back to repeat it all. Why should she care of the flicker of life judges her? But yes, Teldrassil did not come out of nowhere for the lols.

[@ajelsanchez9151]

She doesn't care anything at all because life is pointless, life is cruel and she was the sort of antagonistic role in the battle of azeroth towards shadowlands. 💔💔💔

[@kelvinthomassen4977]

Dang you guys should look also to those demon hunter cinematics even the in game ones

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

We want to get to more of Illidans story at some point 😅

[@Antonath]

As far as we know, Sylvanas isn't under the Jailor's control, unlike the Lich King who wears the helm of domination, but Blizzard has even stated that Arthas for example he did many of the evil things just with a little push and that the Jailor was upset with the Lich Kings both with Arthas and Nerhzul as they kind of did their own thing against what he wanted. I can say from a lore perspective especially taking in all the content from the game, books, etc they did start hinting at Sylvanas's rage growing and basically at one point where she tries to make a genuine connection with her one sister during Garrosh's trial (where the two of them plan to poison Garrosh) but her sister bails on the idea and instead give the poisoned food to Anduin to deliver to Garrosh telling him it is poisoned and leave the choice to him. Sylvanas's reaction is very telling as it shows the last bit of love she has left shrivels away as she basically says she will never feel again, and then proceed to kill any poor wolf she comes across as she goes riding through the woods wailing like a... you guessed it Banshee.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Thanks for sharing that bit of lore with Sylvanas and her sister with us. Helps to understand her a bit more 🙂

[@Antonath]

@@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames No problem, I do believe the majority of the community can understand why Sylvanas is so hateful, but we are still scratching our heads on how she didn't see that the Jailor is using her. I mean she HATES Arthas so much, but somehow doesn't associate the Jailor with him even though that was the Jailor's doing. Not sure they will ever be able to explain that bit to fans that will make sense.

[@OGRitchie]

I love how you have the same gripes with these things as the community does, just by watching it once. Shows really how frustrating it is. Like Sylvanas figuring out that Zovaal only wants to control everyone and rule the universe, not caring about some fixes. Who did not see that one coming? She looks very very stupid there. Or the fact that Genn just stood there (the guy screaming Sylvanas!"), he is a bit of a meme. Because his son got killed by her (He jump into a path of an arrow that was aimed for him) and then he lost Varian (just reaching out and screaming) and then he lost Anduin (just reaching out and screaming). Yeah, don't be next to him, something always happens :D The story is a bit weird nowadays, we are headed into a place where Zovaal is supposed to be able to "remake reality" and we are supposed to stop him. You can watch cinematics from that when it comes out, which will be like February/March sometime. The one part lore people were very excited for from these was the one, where Winter Queen is talking to someone inside Tyrande's body. Which is Elune, the Goddess of the Moon, the Goddess of the Night Elves and as we found out, the Goddess of a lot of other races around the universe. Because the power that Tyrande had? Yes she is not the first one who had it and we find a couple of these people in the Shadowlands, because they always died after exacting their vengeance. In that cinematic, the other "Night Warriors" helped us to calm Tyrande down and then the cinematic plays and Elune speaks through her. It was the first time Elune actually did something anywhere in the game and first time we heard her voice. Usually Night Elves turn into Wisps (the little glowy balls you have seen in some cinematics) and stay in the mortal plane. But because Elune heard her sister the Winter Queen cry for help, everyone that burned in Teldrassil was instead sent into the Shadowlands. But of course she did not know that the Arbiter is broken, so everyone instead to her sister went directly to the Maw. (We save the Night Elven souls from there btw. There is a repeatable quest for it, you can save any number you want to.) What they created after is called the Tear of Elune. It is an artifact of immense power a we use it later to create a new covenant "sigil" (The symbols that the Jailer collects to be able to get into the forge of afterlives, for exampe Anduin takes it from the Archon when he stabs her - she survived btw.). Right now the story is on a PTR version of the game and I do not look into it much, because I will probably be playing it, so I do not want it spoiled. But so far, I fail to understand how can the Jailer "remake reality" from a forge that is creating afterlives in the realm of Death. No idea. The forge was made by the "First Ones" btw., who are a new unknown entity that we have basically no knowledge of, that probably created everything. (Note that we used to think Titans did that (and that they are gods), but apparently they just created life on some planets.) The story is changing all the time, who knows what will come next. We also thought that Elune might be one of the First Ones. But it seems that there is a Pantheon of powerful beings for every cosmic force. Titans for Order, Eternals of Death, Elune and someones for Life and so on. I just wanted to make it short and it got away from me there a bit, sorry about that.

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Haha, it’s all good. That happens to us as well when we are passionate about things 😊🤗

[@oscuro_4890]

Yasss! I was so excited for this!!!!

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

🥳🥳

[@darkcyter]

New sub here, been watching your reactions for quite a while, loving them, waiting for your reaction video on the newest League of Legends cinematic The Call, it's just blood boiling epic, you're gonna LOVE it 😄

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

Welcome! 🥳🥳🥂🍾 We for sure will be having a reaction to the Call coming up in not too distant future 😇

[@ethancharbonneau4849]

Hello, i love your video and just to clear thing up with doubld sylvanas. The part the jailer gave her back is not the "good" side, it's more of the second she died a picture was taken and stayed frozen. So sylbvanas have to explain what she has done to her past self while being herself. Like if you go back and talked to ten years old yourself.

[@BHMTH19B]

tyrande said : for teldrassil ! meaning vengence

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

😎🤟

[@nutro9071]

God I love these two

[@DefinitelyNotDefinitiveGames]

🥰☺️🤗😊

[@jasondeandulierjr.299]

Their souls are put together again, there is no the sylvanas has control over her body this day and the other one has control the next, they're both in control at the same time cause they are one again because of Uther