RATE VS TURN - F-16A VS MiG-29 Dogfights

[@TransportSupremo]

What i have learned, when you face a plane that outrates and outturns you, you need to force a 3 circle reverse rate submission maneuver

[@PuineaGip]

submissive and breedable's manuever

[@IMJUSTABANANA]

​@@PuineaGip evasive and maneuverable

[@ATBatmanMALS31]

You're right about the three circle part~

[@jayklink851]

Even though the Mig 29 is superior to Gajin's F-16 on all levels, except CAS in GRB, I find myself playing the F-16 instead of the Mig 29. It's like I want to will the F-16 into superiority lol. The F-16 would be the better, well maybe that's a stretch, than the Mig 29 if sparrows performed as they did last year. The sad reality is Aim 7 F/Ms are almost useless at 500 meters (these days), the majority of the player base fly on the deck, thus making sparrows irrelevant in most cases.

[@raphaelambrosiuscosteau6685]

@@jayklink851 also applies for 27ERs. Also you do know that mig29 lacks 4000 kgf in engine department right?

[@bubblesofthecoast6393]

Not pictured: Lvl 15 F-4S comes along and kills both of you before crashing into the ground

[@Terran0va_Plays]

Exactly 😂😂 (I'm the f42 driver 👀)

[@theapexdragon5010]

​@@Terran0va_Playsdefinitely a wallet warrior (Just a joke because you said driver instead of pilot)

[@Smellon]

@@theapexdragon5010I love being called a wallet warrior in my f5c when I’m bombing a base and then fighting because it’s so much more xp

[@theapexdragon5010]

@@Smellon I did it early on with my f5C because it was more xp but also probably the bigger reason being that it was something new and unique to just flying and dogfighting, added a new layer.

[@Smellon]

@@theapexdragon5010 exactly why I do it

[@iceshadow207]

Awesome video! I wish you would make more of these, similar to what the Growling Sidewinder is doing, but for War Thunder :) Would love to see Mig-21 vs F-4; F-86 vs MiG-15; BF-109 vs Spitfire vs Mustang vs Yak-1 vs Zero and so on... So many possibilities!

[@Xiphactinus]

Leave that to the master of the three circle dogfight, Koala himself.

[@jimjamjoeyjoejoe]

Better yet a rate v turn 1v1 with the F-5 v MiG-21.

[@Minidave45]

This is war thunde realistic ... extremely unrealistic flight models and these guys are not really using any good maneuvers as opposed to GS

[@rustyrobot6199]

Not saying I do the exact same thing...but stuff like that is out there.

[@tegjwokjohn1839]

@@Xiphactinus which koala are you talking about? The scottishkoala?

[@danielmostert993]

The F16 needs to learn the "cow over moon" manoeuvre. While the MiG 29 should use the "rolling duck". Afterwards they can start a farm together. Great video dude.

[@brunobegic3841]

It would be cool to see what things like the J-7E, F-14 or Mirage 2000C can do against a MiG-29. I feel like the F-14 with the wings out could actually compete with it quite well in these kinds of fights.

[@AFakeName]

all of them just lose in thrust department, mig 29 just pulls the fight up and either gets position when they don't follow or uses superior thrust to maintain rate for longer than they can

[@emilelerate6454]

@@AFakeName this maybe(?) could change with the f14b

[@jinnfromouterspace]

@@AFakeName false. Mig29 goes up and chinese gods smite it with lightning. j7e wins.

[@blessthismessss]

F-14A with low fuel/weight loading is a dogfighting monster ingame despite what many tomcat pilots will have you believe. If you manage your wing sweep, energy state, and lift vector properly, you can neutralize almost any bandit. The only consistent exception for me has always been the F-16- lotsa MiG-29 pilots pull all their Gs early on in the fight and end up below 500kph while im at 0% wing sweep pulling 8Gs at 700-800kph IAS easily, and maintaining such speeds indefinitely with the usage of any moderate amount of neg-G during my ratefighting turns. The longer the fight goes with a MiG-29, the more my tomcat seems to gain the advantage this way- but the F-16 can gain so much speed in such a short time, and its optimal ratefighting speeds are actually lower than the tomcat's 700-800kph bracket, so any good pilot in the F-16 will eventually reel in my tomcat and yours during the ratefight. am totally excited to see how the F-14B does tho.. :3

[@Baleygr--]

The Mirage 2000 can pull 13gs and can pull insane AOA. In a 1 circle fight, the mirage 2000 will easily win against the f16 at high to medium speed. To win a rate fight you need altitude. If you have altitude to point your noise down you will out rate everything.

[@Atlas_M]

This is cool and all but there's a very small issue... An R-27 is heading towards my direction completely undetected.

[@zawadlttv]

you get an rwr warning, notch, chaff, go to the deck, thats all you can do about it

[@SteelxWolf]

@@zawadlttv not for a T

[@zawadlttv]

@@SteelxWolf well yea, thats kinda unfortunate

[@Weasel821]

The missle knows where you are and it is rapidly approaching your position

[@pirateboss1128]

​​@@SteelxWolf the only way I can avoid them is if I turn almost away from the aircraft that fired it while chaffing

[@imainhunter]

i swear if top tier allows long dogfights like those, i'd play top tier more. Just by watching the dogfights i can feel the adrenaline rush, hell they should make a 5v5 top tier match option. hate that top tier now is just clicking buttons

[@emilelerate6454]

Just play props

[@waldek7772]

@@emilelerate6454 where the premiums are 10x better than all the tech tree planes

[@CatWithAOpinion]

@@waldek7772 *xp-50 & 288 flashbacks*

[@williewilson2250]

​@@emilelerate6454 ah yes, where it's much more about getting pushed to the deck and is essentially a loss if your team has no altitude Top tier offers more even ground with such high speeds, it's what keeps it enjoyable

[@waldek7772]

@@williewilson2250 there should be a top tier jet gamemode with no missiles, atleast a 1 week test or smt

[@cleffl]

Feels like mig29's turning ability at high speed heavily relies on it's ability to pull some crazy Gs,you can even reach 14gs at low fuel and the turning circle is ridiculously small and it doesn't bleed that much of speed like it does at low speed.

[@Takemura76]

Yea. The Mig gets to pull crazy unrealistic G’s while the f16 has to operate within a strict envelope. They need to limit the Mig or allow the f16 to override the “g-limiter”.

[@jordancourse5102]

Mig29 FM is pretty realistic. It can pull some insane AOA at high and really low speeds. It has really good nose authority. Same with flankers / modern Russian aircraft.

[@ATBatmanMALS31]

Read this out loud to yourself, like you were saying it to someone... and always continue to do that.

[@martijn9568]

​@@jordancourse5102 Yeah, but a MiG-29 wouldn't be pulling past 9 Gs in real life

[@v0idwalker489]

@@martijn9568 basically no plane would, like some could, but there would definitely be some structural damage and maintenance in the planes future.

[@blessthismessss]

With altitude the bigger wings of the fulcrum closes the performance gap with your F-16 in the rate somewhat- on the deck you really do best at more like 650 IAS, but for me 700 is preferred as it allows for headroom to cash in for extra AoA, vertical potential, etc. From there, I maintain my desired speed with throttle and G-control while maintaining proper lift vector placement (usually on the bandits high six) At high altitude I imagine you need to maintain that speed even more religiously- you're right in that you need to prioritize speed and energy management in the F-16 but 550 is a bit low for it. At 650-700, you keep the energy disparity at a better minimum with your bandit if they decide to extend like you mention doing in the Fulcrum

[@theneef174]

Ah, yes, the inverted bellybutton penisflip buckle-fuck manuever.

[@_YellovvJacket_]

"on the deck you really do best at more like 650 IAS, but for me 700 is preferred" the MiG-29 in this game hits its highest sustained turn rate at around ~570km/h on the deck, with takeoff flaps (because the flaps rip at 570, so you can't go faster than that).

[@blessthismessss]

@@_YellovvJacket_ i was talking about the F-16 there lol

[@_YellovvJacket_]

@@blessthismessss AH, yes for the Viper your speeds are correct, you essentially have max rate anywhere from like 600 to 750

[@brandonguthrie2151]

I would love to see you make a series like this. This is by far my favorite video of yours. Like what some other comments have said a similar script as growling sidewinders videos but in WT.

[@sinoj4254]

I don't think it matters anymore lmaooo... They nerfed the mig29 to hell and they buffed the f16 instead to introduce the damn r73... It doesn't keep up shit with the f16 now lol

[@raphaelambrosiuscosteau6685]

"He is draining my balls dry"

[@Vandal94]

😂😂

[@owenreid104]

I’d really like to see more of this 1 on 1 comparison/ tactics content

[@Registered_Simp]

Great examples shown here. Little extra bit for the F-16's rate envelopes. As currently modeled, the F-16 Blk.15/20 will rate best at speeds between 800 and 850km/h IAS for sustained fighting. If the fight has already gone 2-circle and you aren't in imminent danger of being shot by your opponent, try and stay in this speed regime. You will rate around the circle at around 26 degrees per second when on the deck, though you're gonna need to manage your pilots G-Load. Not feasible if you don't have an expert crew. While you can match the rate speed at lower envelopes, you are also losing allot more speed and are more vulnerable to a 3rd party IMO. Should still be used only in certain cases since it requires some set up.

[@Sill3r_96]

On dcs it may work but not on warthunder imo. In warthunder, dogfights mostly happen near 500kmh. If you do any higher, your opponent will just turn in your circle. This is just my opinion from 26 days of playtime.

[@Registered_Simp]

@@Sill3r_96 From my own experience, even if they have a tighter turning radius, they may not have the energy to capitalize on it. Using F-16 (especially with the new FM) is more a dance between holding and cashing speed. But, as a general rule of thumb, a slow jet is a dead jet. Getting super slow may work for 1v1's, but if you're not extremely confident you can end the fight then and there, cashing it in isn't recommended. Tend to fluctuate between 750 and 1000km/h IAS for my speed just depending on geometry, surroundings, and what I'm trying to do.

[@Sill3r_96]

@@Registered_Simp I’ve tried sticking to 400-450 kt in the viper and competent fighters like m29, m2k, and gripen will just turn in your circle and just sit there all day and land shots. I feel like warthunder physics doesn’t really punish you for going slow. I’ve had a lot more success rating around 250kt with low fuel but on the f16a block 10 and so far I’ve been able to outrate any aircraft on the deck, although the gripen and m4k sometimes outrate me, I think due to fuel differences. Idk maybe I’m doing something wrong. I play only sim btw.

[@Registered_Simp]

@@Sill3r_96 The rate is a viable strategy. But first, you need to get there. Sometimes, you need to stay faster. Sometimes, you need to get slower. Depends on how much starting energy both them and you have as well as the initial geometry and terrain. Your strategy will depend on those factors. Since every fight is different, I can't just put a blanket strategy on it, since my strategy varies allot depending on the behavior of my opponent, and is fluid, RB or Sim. Having looked at the numbers myself for various aircraft at various speeds, just yanking the stick in does have downsides. It's about how you exploit that tradeoff. If someone got into your control zone early and has speed, you're fucked. But if they cashed allot of energy for something that didn't pay off, that can be exploited if you have energy to spare.

[@Sill3r_96]

@@Registered_Simp it just doesn’t feel like that sometimes, especially when fighting the gripen. Pilots with little experience will just yank the stick in that thing and will not lose energy. Doesn’t mean I can’t beat them and exploit their mistakes but it’s just harder to deal with. Maybe I just need more dogfighting experience but dogfights don’t happen very often in top tier unless you have friends to fight in a custom. Anyways, what you’re saying is true in general for dogfights.

[@danaolsongaming]

All you need to know is that the Mig-29A wants to fight in the 1-circle (nose-to-nose) and the F-16 wants to fight in the 2-circle (nose-to-tail). The Mig-29A's strategy will be to trade altitude to cut the circle of the F-16 like we saw in the second dogfight to force the 1-circle fight. However, if the F-16 continues it's 2-circle gameplan eventually the Mig-29 will run out of altitude and it'll just be a matter of time before the F-16 gets guns on or the Mig-29 falls into the WEZ of an AIM-9. The Mig-29 can counter the F-16's 2-circle by either cutting into the 2-circle like I mentioned earlier, or by taking an offset 2-circle and using it's high AoA ability to do a one-time cash in of energy to get the F-16 into it's WEZ and fire off a missile or cannons. But this leaves the Mig-29 in a vulnerable position if it doesn't work, and will likely end the fight sooner in favor of the F-16. The F-16 can counter the 1-circle fight by adjusting its maneuvers to follow the flight path of the Mig-29. Eventually, it'll even out into a standard 2-circle. Things that the F-16 needs to keep in mind is to maintain a tight enough circle as not to allow the Mig-29 the offset 2-circle mentioned earlier, but not to tight as to drain it's energy too quickly and allow the Mig-29 to disengage. Also, considering the G-limiter that's in place for the F-16, creating a large radius for the opening fight and over-shooting the Mig-29 is a problem that pilots will need to adjust for by either engaging the airbrake during the inital parts of the fight or entering the fight at a speed of 400 knots.

[@frogsecretaryofswamp452]

i just watched a video of you breathing and now i cant unhear you inhaling

[@Mcpecog]

rewatching this and remembering the times where gaijin didnt shit on toptier russian air (bring back the old mig29 please)

[@JaydenJelly]

Holy moly I just got the Mig29 a couple days ago... Thank for video defyn very cool

[@paulkort4445]

You have to fight against f16a, not adf\mlu any other versions. F16a is on pair with mig29 since it doesn't have (or has severely decreased) AoA limiter on high speeds. This is stupendous, but that's what I learned flying both A and ADF. While ADF is just a platform for missiles, A rocks the shit out of it's opponents.

[@Soobovic]

the MLU should be the most agile F-16 out of the ones in game, thanks to the elevator and the Block 50 reduced limiter in the fly-by-wire. but you know, Gaijin just copy pasted the ADF into the MLU.

[@LTSarcasm]

​@@Soobovic The ADF and Taiwanese "MLU" (It's actually a Block 50 in disguise with some stuff ripped out, built on the Block 50 line - very different from the MLUs) reek of a slapdash attempt to add in F-16s that actually had a mid range missile at the last moment when it was realized that the MiG-29 being able to fire R-27s with impunity at a sidewinder-only bird would be an... issue. They weren't in any of the promo footage, the flight model is literally just the early block with extra weight added on and they originally used the F-16A model.

[@UUUU-dn9wz]

Nice video, but at 6:10 the F-16 has 4 minutes of fuel while the MiG29 has 22, that's an enormous difference. Also at 15:52 the F-16 has only 2 minutes and 30 seconds while the MiG29 has over 14, again an enormous difference. At 16:55 instead the MiG29 has far less fuel, that's why it out climbs the F-16 so massively. I think it would have been better if both of you had 20 mins (or 20 for F16 and 30 for MiG29 since often the MiG29 drinks more fuel on full afterburner) without fuel consumption. That way you don't risk on creating too much fuel difference

[@D0CT0R_X]

+ 4:30 I see SIX aim 9Ps "which are heavier than 9Ls" VS only TWO R60s which are way lighter than all sidewinders . There is definitely some differences here

[@UUUU-dn9wz]

@@D0CT0R_X yeah that's also another factor, but at least they are choosing their own load outs, can dump them if they want to and missiles aren't as heavy has a 15 minute fuel difference

[@DEFYN]

The fuel was bugged a couple of times during the custom battle but we took 30 and 20 for a reason if we both ran max tank the 29 would basically win every matchup which was extremely one sided so we went with 20 and 30 Min fuel it would basically turn into fuel fighting. Some fights shown here are a bypdroduct of fuel consumption. the fights dont really play out differently for the ones that are bugged like the one at 16:55 the main reason i outclimb him that hard is because he airbroke to 700kph to get within my turn while i am still going mach 6:10 was definitely an oversight but it was a decent fight so i included it. I shouldve clarified that better.

[@UUUU-dn9wz]

@@DEFYN yeah, with a full tank the MiG29 would dominate, min fuel wise you can set the duel in a way that planes do not drain their fuels, they basically stay at the constant fuel weight you started with while the engine runs indefinitely, but this obviously removes the impact the gradual fuel drain has in practice. The fights also were all very good anyway tough, and the video was definitely informative!

[@r.u.s.e3586]

This is quickly becoming my favorite video on this entire channel.

[@mrbrianbrush]

Love the new video idea. It helps teach what to do and shows both sides, so you learn your opponents' strengths and weaknesses. It also i hop lightens the workload for you. Hope to see more from every br and vehicle 🙏

[@jaek_898]

Would have liked to see a Block 10, from what I can tell its flight model is just straight up better than the MLU/ADF. The small elevator F-16s weigh 300kg less, which is not insignificant.

[@williewilson2250]

The ADF and MLU have extended elevators to remedy the extra weight

[@jaek_898]

@@williewilson2250 their elevators are different visually but they seem to not be reflected in the flight model despite there being some elevator changes in the code. Block 10 pulls an extra 0.5-1g any any given speed and weight compared to the ADF/MLU

[@williewilson2250]

@@jaek_898 it's there to remedy, not really fix it

[@vizender]

That would be awesome seeing you doing this with more high-top tier vehicles. I’d love to see the mirage 2000, the f14 and the gripen (when it comes out) fighting those 2 as well

[@apiece_]

Rate is natural Rate is healthy Rate is good Society needs more rate Cultivate rate

[@WTM_ID]

climax rate

[@williewilson2250]

You are one letter away from being banished

[@Kinghans-fc1do]

I think it would be more helpful if we are talking about props, this type of style is AWSOME for new players who will mainly be playing props, and showing them popular matchups is a good way to educate them, the amount of people i see turnfighting a 109 in a p47 at low speeds is scary

[@RobertGaming-ob2ut]

P-47M is my main… if you aren’t in the highest in the ARB, you are dead eventually.

[@Kinghans-fc1do]

@Robert1352 Gaming exactly and ppl be ground striking in em and taking low alt turfights against anything

[@RobertGaming-ob2ut]

@@Kinghans-fc1do I only ground pound when the ARB match is >5v1. The P47 is great at ground pounding, but it needs total air superiority to do it.

[@Kinghans-fc1do]

@@RobertGaming-ob2ut 💯

[@Dave-_-]

what about stalling yourself out in front of a Zero?

[@Oliepolie]

been waiting for this kind of video for a bit, especially with these two planes :3

[@Kinghans-fc1do]

For some reason this vid didnt show up in my feed, but i looove these kinds of 1v1 vids ❤

[@lolprobob]

Finaly. Could not find a another vid thats like this, good jobb

[@austinmccotter2405]

I just got the kfir c7 and after watching this it has occurred to me that I could pull with those planes for about two turns then I’d just fall out of the sky like a rock, it’s a blast to fly tho

[@2shae475]

Those bigger canards on the front drain a lot of your energy in turns. Best to keep it straight and escape

[@austinmccotter2405]

Ya but that’s no fun in a custom game and it’s so funny forcing my idiot friends to overshoot in superior planes and just blast them

[@ethanstclair802]

@@austinmccotter2405 What idiot friends are you referring to 😭

[@amazingstealth8235]

Defyn went full Growling Sidewinder mode for this video 💀

[@schakalicious6023]

But man DCS is so much more entertaining to watch! Wish I had a pc…

[@asiftalpur3758]

@@schakalicious6023 literally wake up one day and will a pc to existence

[@_VuQuangTruong]

We need to see this content more often

[@mp7_acog]

related to this video, did you watch the 4v4 air to air tournament last weekend? what did you think about everyone picking the mig29? obviously it was for the ER/HMD combo, but there was that team with the two f16s.

[@Boris_The_Turtle]

It was pretty boring tbh. They should have done mirror matchups. They spin a wheel a plane is picked and they all fight in it for a round.

[@pharaoska658]

How do you think the new F14 coming out will fair with it's strongeer engines and thrust ratio?

[@boxtankgamer6014]

The F-14A has insane alpha. At like 500 MPH with the wings fully out im not even sure a MiG-29 could pull inside it. So a B model with 40% more thrust will allow it to sustain those maneuvers longer and generally improve its sustained turn/rate (which the A is already good at). The F110s fix basically every problem with the Tomcat and the AIM-9L will make it an even better ACM machine.

[@williewilson2250]

​@@boxtankgamer6014 * gaijin's adds AOA limiter it didn't have *

[@sulferix7265]

@Willie Wilson they fuckin better not I'd be so mad. It already pissed me off enough that they did that to the f16. So tired of Russian bias.

[@williewilson2250]

@@sulferix7265 I'm expecting either some goofy ah nerf or an obscene addition to another nation that goes beyond the f14b

[@Streamer727]

neat video. One thing, it's probaably better to put the second video in the bottom left, since when you are looking at the guy, he is almost never there, whereas in the top right, the video blocks him quite often

[@trumpler9191]

SO my only gripe about the video was that you didn't use airbrake on certain oppurtunities that arose when you first swapped to f16 (when you went vertical and say it turns to a brick or in 6:00 that would be easy for an f16 to pull in with airbreak) ik you said that maintaining 500kmh is important and i agree as it prevents it from becoming a total brick below 400 kmh yet i still think you might have been able to get some shots in by using it. I just consider the airbrake to be your combat flaps. also did they change how flaps interact with the F16? I recall you saying in a previous video that it borks the performance causing it to turn less.

[@_Ker]

Yup, for some reason my f-16aj turns 25% better when I use my air brakes and afterburner at any speed.

[@PvtPartzz]

These slow speed fights in the Mig29 or F14 are where you need a split throttle.

[@martijn9568]

Please don't take something Hollywood invented seriously. Yes, split throttle could help you yaw slightly more at extremely low speed, but you will have to weigh that against increased deceleration through lowering one of your throttles.

[@williewilson2250]

That'll help very rarely

[@PvtPartzz]

@@martijn9568 watch Growling Sidewinder in the F14 or Mig29 before spouting nonsense.

[@rainsilent]

@@martijn9568 It has also been done in real life. It works in real life. Hollywood invented or not it actually works.

[@kingghidorah8106]

when you face an enemy with better turn and rate than you you either have the balls to put a good fight or have the balls to put a good fight and still being called a moron for "dogfighting on a less maneuverable plane"

[@gunpo3644]

I love how this is right after the seeks dcs comments vid

[@airadve]

warthunder 100% needs a 1v1 dogfight matchmaker

[@guardrailhitter]

tournaments

[@airadve]

@@guardrailhitter but like more casual

[@yrkjrk2972]

The Viper, and Tomcat too, should out-rate the MiG-29 substantially. And F-14Bs and F-16Cs (when they inevitably arrive) should absolutely goof on a MiG-29 in a rate fight. The 29 is more on par with an F-15 in terms of its rate fighting ability and pulling the nose around. In BVR they are quite similar save for the F-14 and its AIM-54A and C variant (which should be better at hitting a small maneuvering target like a MiG-29 or MiG-21 for that matter). With mouse and keyboard controls its hard to realize this because anyone can just move their mouse to point the nose wherever.

[@joonlorenzon9696]

what does the f-16c have over the a? I tried to search it up but didn't come up with many conclusive answers

[@williewilson2250]

​@@joonlorenzon9696 engine (sounds beautiful), hmd, radar, and missiles

[@rainsilent]

@@williewilson2250 Cs are still worse than As at pure rating/turning. The more powerful engine allows a C to do more power stuff making the 16C a better all round dogfighter but the A is still better in a pure rate fight because the Cs add a lot of weight.

[@braydencook3291]

In a guns only fight, I think the mig is stronger, turns so much faster than the tomcat I do think that the f15 is a pretty even match in any fight

[@Alpakinator]

Great video! I like those more than Air RB commentary videos

[@willbrigham2121]

Love the comparison video, let’s see some more of these

[@tensor8804]

Rate gain by flaps is works pretty simple. Rate of planes like mig29 is limited by AOA. Which equals 22 for mig29. Flaps just lower your AOA for a bit. So, you just can get a little extra turn rate before you will be limited with AOA by instructor.

[@thejetfighter]

As per Russian planes go, the MIG-29 has always been my favorite. Nice video 😀

[@InVinoVeritas89]

After 3years of air simming i jst learned from u that i can drop my loadout 😂😂😂😂 thank u bro itll help me in close df cnn vs cnn

[@il_nam]

Loved the video I just learn so many things just by watching it

[@jonathonspears7736]

I very much enjoyed this video. I'd like to see more like it in the future.

[@Arengeesus]

The F16 Block 10s will run rings around Mig 29s since they're lighter and can hit 11Gs

[@vasilis4894]

Love these videos man keep going 😊

[@СергейНикольский-я2ц]

3:31 Downward spiral And btw 500-550 is way too low at this speed you’ll have 20deg/s at best on min fuel, 650-750 IAS is the speed you should have been keeping. This plane is extremely easy mode in sim so In RB the best way to win every single dogfight is to switch to full real control, turn damping on, if you’re not used to its performance with damping off, I mean without some practice you can easily overpull to 30+deg of AoA and not only lose all of its speed in a second but also enter a flat spin if you didn’t manage to press “flaps out” button in time but if you’re used to it then it’s better to not use damping cause without it you’ll be able to pull that 30+deg of AoA anytime you want which helps if you decided to fight in 1C since with flaps out and full controls this plane has 290m turn radius at 300kph which is better than that of basically any other plane in game and also the plane doesn’t compress with damping off so you can pull A LOT at speeds above 800 where it compresses with RB controls or with damping on. So switch to sim controls and just keep moving towards target’s six with pure or lag pursuit at you rate speed and that’s it

[@Broomtwo]

I mostly play the F-16 and the vast majority of my deaths to MiG-29's is the first turn. They just pull insane G's and turn twice as fast when merging at high speed. MiG 29 really is just better in almost every way, and way easier to dogfight with, the F-16 only wins if less fuel and played exactly correct.

[@jmheasley4473]

lol your just bad then

[@Broomtwo]

​@@jmheasley4473 ??? Its not like I am getting shit on by MiG-29's, but if i do die that is usually why. Its very rare to get into a 1v1 anyway

[@cohenmoldova8442]

Then merge at lower speeds

[@williewilson2250]

​@@cohenmoldova8442 the problem is the f16 has no smooth transition into it's high AOA so it just instantly loses all of its speed

[@cohenmoldova8442]

@@williewilson2250 manage youre energy better

[@fewyearsbehind9333]

Having WarThunder Real-Time Information (WTRTI) installed would really help. We could see actual number on the turn.

[@jesko_Creations]

Hi DEFYN, recently i gave another chance to the F100 super sabre and gaijin actually fixed It, now It does not break his wings at like 8 g's and now you can actually play with It, it's alzo a good grinder foe some reason, so i think you should bring a new video of It, it's still a really hard plane to fly, (doesn't turn and roll at around mach Speed if not above like 5500/6000 meters and It compresses alot) but i found It really interesting and fun to play. love your videos as always ❤️

[@j100j]

Do you still remember soggycumrag, the guy in the J21R. The guy who tried going down after they lost the dogfight but they flew into the cumzone. We all have to thank them for comeing into the game as they will be remembered forever.

[@No1harris_98]

Defyn. Are you able to revisit the J35A again? As it’s been a year since you last played. I picked it up in the recent sale and have been having a blast in it, especially with the guns as you can hit some funky shots with it. The payload I carried was the 12 rockets (as my make shift flares) and 2 sidewinders.

[@jmheasley4473]

it’s complete fucking dogshit

[@-SANDMAN]

Fun fact "Scissory flaturn-ish" is the name of a sex pose in the maghrabi kama sutra

[@matthewsmith2715]

Growling sidewinder's lessons from his videos are very applicable here

[@mutemainplays1046]

nice and good job making the fight into a 2 turn fight also btw you can radar lock him and have it be a harder time to lose the missile lock

[@IAMDATA1]

This is so cool, always been looking for a custom air battle community, i'v got f14a and have at least played it 3 days total time in custom against random people, by any chance r there a discord community like that?

[@jimmiarreltherford8464]

Damn this was fun to watch!

[@aydenpalmer4647]

Hate that they ruined the balancing between these jets. The flight model of these jets before the mig 29 got shafted and the f16 got biased seemed fair and realistic. Now f16 outrates outturns. The only reason to pick the mig 29 is because it is a beautiful looking aircraft. Do you thing they will ever buff the 29 or nerf the 16?😢

[@kkadz]

dang, i was looking for a video just like this

[@dankaloww1067]

If you ditch out of a vertical fight early and you gain slight distance while turning in to the F-16, (You have to be very precise) you can allow and F-16 to drag onto your fight six trying to fight at you draining energy. Once that happens, you then Shoot out with higher speed into a semi tight corkscrew further draining out the F-16s energy. (Note: F-16 does poorly in corkscrews when at 500-600km/h the corkscrew just drains too much energy for that jet) You just flat out win. The only thing I see you doing is ditching out fully into Turn reversals. I used to struggle thinking thats the only way to win. However The Mig-29 loves to do un orthodox rate fights and if you position yourself with higher speed and the bandit coming over your high six wasting energy, you can easily energy trap an F-16 and win 90% of the time. This is coming from a Soviet Main, High end Dueler.

[@dankaloww1067]

Scratch that, They buffed the F-16s AOA even more. Now its impossible to do anything to them.

[@akio8352]

The f16 is primarily a rate fighter it was built to be a rate fighter and it's better to go to the 2 circle if possible, but that doesn't mean it cant hangout on the 1 circle

[@qnarym]

i don't know if it works the same at the russian mig but when german mig 29 uses airbrake it actually turn significally more

[@LH475]

Reminds me of the good old mig vs sabre days tbh, cool vid

[@saltysteel3996]

Believe it or not, the hardest turning F16 in the game is the last one in the USA tech tree. The regular Block 10 version. Pulls much harder than the ADF or MLU.

[@NagatoSnow]

the flaps of the F16 actually decrease the turn rate of the F16 for no reason

[@NagatoSnow]

the fuel is messed up in the end btw

[@joonlorenzon9696]

it's frontal wing slats already adjust for better performance, when you put your flaps out they stop doing it and it seriously hurts the plane's performance

[@pieterdeliho1492]

As a f-16AJ player. Dogfighting mig 29 is a piece of cake. As long as no one intervenes

[@normallymute0131]

This brings into focus the further dominance of the Russian air. The paper tiger Su-57, if/when it gets added, will be in advantage due to its nations doctrine. Despite being a less stealthy stealth fighter will be a dogfighting champ. To even the playing field, maps would need to be at minimum EC sized to accommodate western doctrine of better BVR and Stealth above dogfighting, else it will just begin and end in a furball.

[@willthomas9635]

lol I would dogfight an su57 with a raptor. God knows a raptor outperforms the felon. Raptors can supercruise. Cant imagine how stupid fast they would be in full afterburner

[@normallymute0131]

@@willthomas9635 Yes I will admit the F-22 is an amazingly stable high instability fighter. But that is the top of the top. Imagine having to dogfight a felon in a F-35. F-35 is not particularly nimble but is extremely advanced and highly capable in air to air radar combat

[@willthomas9635]

@normallymute0131 you have a point. The f35 would not want to tangle with a felon in close range. It does however have much better avionics

[@normallymute0131]

@@willthomas9635 yeah, as I said, longer range maps would have to be implemented to accommodate the differences in doctrines. Those who’d want to dogfight can do so without to heavy an interruption, and those with missile busses can missile joust to their hearts content

[@valdurion6779]

9 months later mig29 nerfed 3 times and useless

[@wafflefrfr]

flying airbrake and worse turn rate 😭 MiG-29A 9.13 is cooked

[@methal0-111]

I like to use as a trick the Aim7 without PD is slow fights beacsue he won't notch it and the missile continues tracking for a while after being chaffed

[@jmheasley4473]

🤦‍♂️

[@methal0-111]

@@jmheasley4473 lol when you chase someone and he start turning back at you you will certainly lose track. This trick prevents you from losing track resulting in a win.

[@jmheasley4473]

🤦‍♂️

[@MrPanggs]

Haven’t played war thunder since they added the F16 and MIG 29. Did they ever remove the fly by wire limiter of 9G’s?

[@a-10brrrrrrrrrrr72]

Unfortunately no

[@viewer54322]

Defyn at 3:40 I see the instructor circle there, did you just move the circle there w/ cursor so that the plane would be turning like that? Or is the circle just you using freelook? I assume youre also using keyboard to give rudder input/elev? Thanks for any insight

[@esanahka9284]

Can you do a video on the Sea harrier?

[@gungasc]

Why do I feel like f-16A pilots want to type away, but you know, classified stuff.

[@patrickbeyer6305]

It still bothers me that the f16 should have just as good if not better maneuverability. But it’s warthunder so whatever. Also great video.

[@rainsilent]

@@WigSplitters And yet in real life the F-16 is the absolute king of rate fights. It spanks everything of its generation and nothing is close. Yes, the MiG pulls a lot of AOA and modern dogfights with missiles favor high AOA over everything else. This is why the F-22 has thrust vectoring when the USAF otherwise thinks that thrust vectoring is a waste of time. The thing is that this doesn't change the fact that the F-16 is still more maneuverable in real life than any equivalent MiG-29. Yes. The MiG has the advantage in a more modern dogfight if it has the missiles but if it doesn't have the missiles then the MiG is really going to struggle to win a dogfight. Currently in game the MiG has an unfair high speed maneuverability advantage that it doesn't have in real life. Why? I don't specifically know why and I don't care either.

[@sapiensiski]

Called the flying feather for a reason

[@rainsilent]

@@WigSplitters I have and no the MiG-29 does not slap the F-16 up. The F-16 slaps everything in a two circle that isn't gen 5 fairly effortlessly. The MiG-29 does have the advantage in the one circle but it isn't enough to really be dominant like it is with the Mirage 2000. The F-16 is the two circle king, the Mirage 2000 or F/A-18 is the one circle king. The MiG-29 is in the middle and is good but not great. This from someone who prefers virtually everything not American over something American unless it is the F-14.

[@rainsilent]

@@WigSplitters The F-16 absolutely can. The F-16 out rates the MiG-29 by more than 2 degrees a second when both are at their optimum rates. Thus in a two circle fight the F-16 dumps on the MiG-29. As for forcing a one circle? It isn't as easy as if you want to do it it will happen. The F-16 can deny the one circle thereby keeping the fight in a two circle. There are many examples on YT demonstrating this in DCS. One place to go to for some examples where one plane avoids the one circle keeping the fight two circle is Growling Sidewinder's channel. The greatest strength of the MiG-29 is its ability to point the nose quickly via AoA. It's actual rate ability is, in general, subpar. Thus going two circle in the MiG-29 against most things is suicidal. The major exception being against deltas, which most rate worse than the MiG-29. Against the F/A-18 non Super Hornets the MiG-29's only real strength is its T/W. Leverage that and the MiG-29 has a fighting chance. Don't and you will get smoked every time if the F/A-18 pilot is remotely competent. Against Super Hornets? Hope the pilot is incompetent. "PS saying you don't like something and your talking about it doesn't make you correct or give your argument validity" No. It does none of those things. I didn't say that for any of those reasons though. I said it strictly to establish that I'm not coming at this from a pro F-16 perspective and preventing you from using strawman bias claims.

[@rainsilent]

@@WigSplitters They are if both players are good.

[@cryptoworldpeace2974]

Great video as always, but this one feels special

[@malekbudair3805]

the problem is with type of game mode that wt have u cant have such long fights that what makes the mig29 much superior it fits the game much better when u can kill enemies faster

[@MarcABrown-tt1fp]

Also the Russian pilot can handle sustained 11-14G turns apperently...

[@Azzarii]

​@@MarcABrown-tt1fp Because blacking out every turn is fun and engaging

[@MarcABrown-tt1fp]

@@Azzarii Because you cant do that with the F-16 for nearly as long or anything else for that matter. Heck even the German MiG 19s has slightly worse G tolerance than the russian tech tree varient. It's suspicious...

[@Azzarii]

@@MarcABrown-tt1fp my king you are cooking nothing + all planes have the same G tol + clueless

[@killzor7714]

what have i learnt today... f16 was built to be the best dog fighter and it performs like a boat nice

[@a-10brrrrrrrrrrr72]

Gota love Russian bias

[@The_Gaming_Hamster]

hey DEFYN, do you do any coaching kind of stuff? I'm trying to learn from these videos but it's a bit difficult for me.

[@overtoast1105]

What the hell happened to cannons in this game? Used to be a solid 30 mm hit would destroy the other guys computer in real life, but it's a damn water gun now. Even the vulcan doesn't vaporize shit anymore.

[@mar7774]

Not to nitpick, it's only terminology in the end but I believe by the title you actually mean Rate vs Radius not Rate vs Turn, because rate is a category of turn the same way radius is. Otherwise, great breakdown :)

[@DEFYN]

You're not nitpicking you're right Air RB players are not too familiar with these terms however so i figured this would peak their interest a bit more Thanks :)

[@philipprobst1783]

Very nice Video ! Why not the F16A from USA ? Is a bit stronger in a 1v1 from my Opinion 😃

[@Right1994]

Me, seeing the slow and low rolling scissors and thinking "The F/A-18 is gonna kill both of them in that situation!" and then remembering that this isn't DCS and there is no F/A-18.

[@anonimous_user7318]

Do offset two circle tactics work against the f16 in war thunder? If you're confused about offset two circle watch Growling Sidewinder's video about it, I think it explains it well.

[@MiaReiFilms]

they do, but high aspect and head on shots are easier to take in war thunder than dcs so it's a little more dangerous

[@jmheasley4473]

not really

[@jaek__]

they work quite well but war thunder is weird since you have infinite foresight and perfect aim so the shots are harder to advantage of

[@anonimous_user7318]

@@jaek__ I mean not everyone has infinite foresight, but I imagine it would be much easier to spot a mig29 trying some offset two circle stuff than it would be in DCS. If successful in the offset, the mig29 doesn't need to take the headon shot to win, only to reverse turn into a one circle fight and take the f16's six. That's the theory at least...

[@jaek__]

@@anonimous_user7318 well unless the f16 remerges poorly then it would still probably win, assuming the f16 is at a similar trajectory and airspeed, i exaggerated slightly for effect but my point being its a lot easier to force and anticipate headons with the third person cam and mouse aim

[@TheSuperZOS]

Now I just need this sort of a video but for F-104 TAF and the in-tree equivalent because I *really* want to know what the actual fuck am i supposed to do in a 12.0 game

[@wertret8697]

Guys i know this is unrelated but my time is dwindling, i suffer from a terminal illness called "skill issue." The doctor said my silver lions are plummeting every day and that im not getting enough rp. I guess it's time to say goodby because I won't be a free to play anymore.

[@shirjonas7761]

as someone that's Unlocked the F4-J and constantly face F14's and F16's and every USSR top tier, i'd greatly like tips on how to play it against planes that are fully superior to me in every case ,stay low? go high? AIM-7F low targets? Pulse doppler wants lock? it loses lock, all this

[@roadhigher]

stay fast, don't ever turn, use HMD + AIM-7F combo to get nasty radar kills, if anyone is on your six just run to teammates. Outside of the radar missiles all Phantoms are completely and utterly outmatched nowadays.

[@squareded]

Have you ever tried SIM control . Maybe it would have given the F-16 too much of an advantage over SIM control. Pretty much , you can pull extremely hard if you use SIM control . Might wanna try it .

[@Maxiking-fn5lh]

Best teaching channel for wt flying

[@thegenericguy8309]

Take the R-27R if you can take any loadout. R-27R pulls 30G very fast and accelerates slowly enough that it can start matching an R-60 at surprisingly short range. Combine that with being unflarable and a massive boresight angle and it can be insanely dangerous

[@LTSarcasm]

It wasn't really a contest to see what would be the most lethal, as the R-27ERs and/or R-27Ts would completely and utterly lopside the contest (which is also why all of the people said the 29 was better in 'actual air RB').

[@thegenericguy8309]

@@LTSarcasm yeah but this is specifically for the close range dogfight. 27Ts also wouldn't do anything, they can be flared like anything else. and the 27ER is worse in dogfights

[@ahisjkh07]

What do you use to record your videos?

[@denvera1g1]

I really wish my neighbor would get his last 2 mig 29s repaired and flying, i think he only has 2 working models and i would have thought adversarial training with USAF would be hard to do with just 2 examples

[@acecarpenter502]

The F-16 you can very easily go ballistic on you if you're not careful

[@roadhigher]

Thats the biggest problem the F-16 runs into, the sheer thrust to weight on that boy means a split second of too much afterburner and you're in the G-limiter zone and turn into a brick. With good speed managment and healthy use of throttle drop and airbrake the F-16 is unbeatable in a dogfight.

[@Not_Octopus]

Also pro tip, never push a Mig-29 into a one circle.

[@sparkoello2445]

Nice format

[@Hazey652]

1:39 YIPPIE

[@ibum4908]

Ayyy is my favourite Air RB youtuber!

[@ricardohumildebrabo]

People like to jump conclusions and hate on WT modeling but the way you play the F-16 here is the SAME way you would play in DCS. So there's that.

[@jmheasley4473]

how is that relevant

[@ricardohumildebrabo]

@@jmheasley4473 Do you live under a rock? Have you never noticed the horde of frustrated F-16 players begging for buffs?

[@CaariocsBR]

true, f16 is a 2circle/rate fight fighter while mig29 is a 1 circle fighter, it pulls more at cost of speed, but mig29 can also rate fight and do 2 circle pretty well, but in that area f16 is better

[@jaek__]

​@@CaariocsBR on low fuel the mig 29 does out rate the f16

[@CaariocsBR]

@@jaek__ nop, mig29 ideal rate fight speed is something aroung 700/750km/h, if you go faster than that the circle starts to get too big, while f16 doing the same ideal rate fight speed or a little bit faster will turn slightly better = beating the 29, it takes a while and its annoying to do, but thats how it works in my experience