Why being "Toxic" and "Nice" doesn't matter / HEROIC's unexpected roster move - Counter-Points S2E17

Thorin and Maniac discuss results from ESL Pro League, a roster rumor that degster will replace nicodoz on HEROIC, narratives surrounding "toxic" and "nice players, hallzerk and Complexity's recent performances, expectations for MOUZ at this event, and more!
Counter-Points is a Counter-Strike talk show, hosted by Duncan "Thorin" Shields and Mathieu "Maniac" Quiquerez.
This video was recorded on the 5th of May, 2024.
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:01:43 - HEROIC
0:13:56 - degster in, nicodoz out at HEROIC?
0:37:55 - Complexity
0:51:45 - Do "nice" players lack ambition?
1:03:01 - Team Liquid
1:18:14 - MOUZ
1:25:06 - ENCE
#podcast
#counterstrike
#thorin

[@ourboyhemingway]

No guests needed, the way you two counteract each other and the way you two unravel storylines with depth and from multiple angles makes the show fire

[@mylesstevens4367]

Absolutely, this is lowkey my favorite show on LFN (CS, I stopped following League a long time ago). Thorin and Maniac always get into the straight fire analysis

[@radicoolcalifornian2551]

I heavily disagree, Maniac pure and simple lacks the spice to keep the show entertaining. You cannot argue that he's adding enough analytical depth to overcome the pure entertainment factor.

[@volify_]

big agree.

[@levindy6]

@@radicoolcalifornian2551 his analysis, anecdotes, and behind the scenes knowledge is what makes him interesting. another guest will only take away space from him.

[@ourboyhemingway]

@@radicoolcalifornian2551 IMO that’s what makes him work as the straight man to Thorin, it’s a balancing act

[@oddkast]

i see that maniac got rid of the dead body since the last episode

[@HahsJeje]

The plot thickens

[@wimpybrawler1432]

It was a chair

[@pbsquilz]

@@wimpybrawler1432 lmao killjoy

[@kamilianos]

Thorin has the best sounding ''BRO'' pronunciation :D

[@jadedaim]

since apeks benched the entire team heroic could get nawwk, not as high of a celing as degster but he is still very good imo, also he has experience with kyxsan

[@thenightmancometh93]

This is where Thorin all but confirmed it was Twistzz who didn’t want Elige which is kinda sad they couldn’t get over whatever personal differences they have because as Thorin said years ago those two players should always be on the same team

[@TYLERLOVESBMX1]

MalbsMd to complexity would be a huge upgrade considering his recent form against tier 1 opposition. probably could pick him up for pretty cheap or work a trade with M80, then hopefully have enough capital left over to save NAF or Autimatic.

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

Zorte and ArtFrost are the two decent AWPers that are wallowing in Tier2/3. degster is worth a go though, because he is a free agent, where as the other two are under contract

[@Greyimm]

Just yesterday I was asking 'why hasnt degster hasnt been on a team in nearly a year?' I love this show, and I hope to see degster again because he was so entertaining to watch and his ceiling was so high

[@stayhome4626]

23:30 Nice Coaching LOL

[@edulis8724]

When Throin and Maniac was talking about NA players who are nice guys and is actually ambitious, I kept waiting for some twistzz angles but didnt seem to hear any so had to leave this comment. I started watching CS pretty late (towards the end of CSGO), but from everything I've seen so far twistzz is like the perfect example of a nice player whos really ambitious and backs it up by making big decisions. (also guys am I tripping or is twistzz the actual NA goat?) I also noticed that twistzz is a very different person on and off games, he seems like a chill dude off game but when he's playing he switches up and starts motivating, creating the mood, maybe its not comfortable for them but I think COL needs some more of that. Hallzerk does that pretty often but too bad he plays the way he does :(

[@trollface9903]

Twistzz is definitely egotistic and a bit emo from everything we've seen. He's just good at hiding it for the media. When he had just joined faze, he immediately started complaining how he hadn't been given his roles on Liquid and faze was giving him more freedom. Elige and later stew both confirmed they didn't know what he was talking about, with the exception of his willingness to awp, to which stew replies saying why the heck would he let one of the best riflers in the world ruin his game with the awp Niko-style

[@floofy1]

i feel like nicoodoz shud be on a team where he is the secondary awper and a main rifler

[@neues3691]

It's frustrating that "I don't like to play with player x" still gets accepted as an excuse in an industry where those same players are paid a shit ton. You should except them to just suck it up and win.

[@rx.ar1414]

Grim proceeded to top frag in a 2-1 win against NaVi 😎

[@cd2194]

Yep if he plays the game they ate good but he is too streaky

[@vinsmoke2865]

@@cd2194i forgot what caster said it but it’s so fucking true about complexity, Grim and Elige can never pop off together, it’s like some curse where one does well and the other does okay never both going supernova

[@cd2194]

@@vinsmoke2865 yea but this is mostly because grim is good 20% of the big games and elige is good in 90% but somehow their overlap is super rare so in my mind upgrading grim to a more consistent heavy hitter would be a banger move

[@ironwolfgaming9632]

It was a match that meant pretty much nothing. I would not read too much into it.

[@rx.ar1414]

@@ironwolfgaming9632 look at the bracket navi is in now and tell me that meant nothing 🤣

[@TemporarilyWoW]

I never comment, but genuinely feel a guest would take away from the wonderful flow and synergy you two have in your convos.

[@MusicJunkie37]

8:43 Apparently that was BluePho3nix not Maxster

[@schmeed0000]

who

[@sh1nenkai258]

hltv rating is actually so skewed, the biggest example is in liquid vs furia at epl recently, naf had 1.27 rating 41 kills 39 deaths for the series so goes +2, twistzz goes 1.25 rating with 49 kills and 40 deaths so +9, and eyetest twistzz was the better player, more impact, more multikills and round winning kills all because naf had higher kast (85% whe ntwistzz had 71%) but twistzz had higher adr hltv rating is too kast and deaths per round favoured

[@romaliop]

Yeah, DPR is massively overrated in the rating formula, since you get points directly from it and also through KAST, even though it has minimal influence on actually winning the game from an individual standpoint. Surviving without kills or assists means you had zero influence on the round because your teammates either won or lost the round without you. So even the economic factor of surviving is not really about any individual effort, but just a circumstance the player finds himself in due to how the round played out. If you remove the S from KAST, it would still reward you for exit kills and surviving in situations where the opponent tries to hunt the player and the player actually needs to fight for his life.

[@peepopoo4387]

Naf's entire rating is weird. The guy is at 1.23 rating which is like a top 5 player in the world if you just look at rating, but when I watch Naf, he's just taking what the enemy gives him and consistently winning his fights which is great, but he never really goes outside the boundaries of the game to make crazy plays. 1.23 puts him at a level with Ropz and Kscerato, but I never see Naf hard-carrying his team to wins like those players do. Even his rating against top 5 teams in the last 3 months is insane at 1.17, but TL is never really pushing these top 5 teams which makes those numbers mean squat to me.

[@dmitrykim3096]

You are right, there is such a thing like a compatibility, toxic for somebody isnnot toxic for somebody else

[@Cheezperson]

Awesome discussion as usual

[@hobonise]

As a long time Degster lover I am stoked to see those hand slaps back in

[@frkcybtw]

-hallzerk -floppy +Nawwk +Blamef Replacing inconsistent pieces with players with similar roles, and much higher consistency.

[@maybeafterlife]

thanks for the content

[@giooo6349]

if col could grab malbs for somebody

[@bajen30]

I think nawwk would be a solid signing for Heroic, less of an upside but less of a risk

[@josephadcock7449]

This was a banger episode

[@dmitrykim3096]

Hope Degster won't be as toxic as he is, this is his last chance to get back to tier 1, he should use it

[@chillypeper777]

when was he toxic?

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

@@chillypeper777 Nexa pointed it out in multiple interviews. Not that he was directly toxic but indirectly toxic, demanding resources and then not taking initiative, etc.

[@chillypeper777]

@@RobCooper-Bachatador oh fak, ty for info!

[@dmitrykim3096]

@@chillypeper777 for now two sources, first team spirit hated to play with him and were all really glad when he left, then Nexa said that there were problems. So I tend to trust them now

[@TheForesking]

Degster has such a high ceiling and he's one of those few awpers that have that flair that makes him so entertaining to watch. If he actually has temperamental issues, I hope he gets them sorted soon. I'd hate to see him turn into another k0nfig.

[@bar0v]

18:37 As far as I know he had some problems with his eyes. And he got multiple surgeries in the last year (but I'm not sure about that). So I guess that's why he was teamless this entire time

[@fanoose]

it was twistzz

[@peepopoo4387]

Yep, Twistzz came to TL for star roles and Yekindar had just been massively humbled after failing at IGL. It doesn't make sense for Yekindar to even have that authority, but TL would definitely want to make their new signing happy.

[@LemureLemure]

Get Moses on the show as a guest.

[@haydens4449]

“Where the fuck is grim!?” He’s hard carrying over the major winners lol, he did step up just like you said they needed

[@DEVILONBOTHSHOULDERS]

col should sign nawwk and jkaem for grim and hallzerk #tbh

[@toxichazmat5785]

40:00 twistzz my boy... put the petty squabbles behind you... you are no longer good enough to be pouty.

[@0Adnin]

If what Nexa said about Degster in one the podcasts and he has not changed. Then Heroic is going to have BlameF problem. 1 player who takes up so much space that team cannot succeed because everyone suffers to make him successful.

[@RobCooper-Bachatador]

Yeah, from what I can gather, he wasn't directly toxic but his demands were indirectly toxic to the team. Nexa said it in multiple interviews too without directly calling him out. There is also the potential Nexa didn't say the worst stuff too because he seemed genuinely annoyed by degster.

[@peepopoo4387]

After the Nicodoz Whiff Experience, maybe they are okay with that.

[@B_Tannen]

No way grim Is removed before floppy. That dude has some of the worst performances in tier 1 counter strike as a whole. Like imagine NAF instead of floppy. Doesn’t coL challenge top 4 instantly?

[@OverproofMMA]

That'd be great but Naf is too lazy to leave Liquid

[@peepopoo4387]

BaitF would be the answer instead of Naf. He's hungrier than ever and wants to save his reputation from being permanently ruined by the community. I think whatever team gets him is going to immediately improve.

[@B_Tannen]

@@peepopoo4387 he is also a great player. And that’s a more realistic move because blameF is cheaper than NAF currently.

[@dmitrykim3096]

Mouz are a super boring team, no narrative, no drama, no content.

[@misterkefir]

who gives a shit if they're getting great results and even winning tournaments? pleb tier take

[@TheForesking]

I wouldn't say they have no narrative. Sure, they're a more boring team because they don't have players with fiery or charismatic personalities and less individual firepower; but I think it's really cool to see a team which is made up of their own former academy players be this successful. I remember Frozen being considered the veteran of the team at age 19 during the Rio Major was a cool narrative. I do wish however that some of their players had more star power so they would be more fun to watch.

[@peepopoo4387]

People thought TSM/Astralis was a boring team, too, until they figured out how to win.

[@dmitrykim3096]

Thorin loves toxic people, he is todic hinself and also toxic people generate more content for him

[@lret2070]

Nice people are generally quite boring, prime toxic s1mple was way more interesting a character than zywoo

[@dmitrykim3096]

​@@lret2070yes, but as Thorin said, toxic people should.be super good to deserve this right

[@dmitrykim3096]

Thorin is Connor McGregor of cybersports journalism