Anti-Capitalist Chronicles: The Significance of China in the Global Economy

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[S1 E07] The Chinese economy is now the 2nd largest in the world. Prof. Harvey argues that China's expansion saved capitalism after the 2008 crash.
Transcription by: Victor Vulovic
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[@democracyatwrk]

You can help us keep this podcast going! Become a patron of Anti-Capitalist Chronicles and support the project: www.patreon.com/davidharveyacc

[@survivalizer]

Support the anti capitalists, on a capitalist platform that shuts down free speech. Great....

[@tinafoster8665]

@@survivalizer hmm, naysayer huh? How are these people to operate if not by making money off it? Would u rather PAY THESE PEOPLE directly? Or would u rather watch Trump rally reruns?

[@tinafoster8665]

@@survivalizer shuts down free speech, what speech are u referring to?

[@survivalizer]

@@tinafoster8665 If you havent seen the fallout from the sargon banning, you're completely out of touch.

[@tinafoster8665]

@@survivalizer OHHHH, I see. So you're basically 1 of these "I'm "awoke" but NO ONE ELSE IS" types. Hmm. N this reference u gave is non sequitur

[@ximinghu9456]

You didn't regard yourself as an expert on China, but you know China far better than many so-called China experts in western countries.

[@therevanchist8508]

Of course. Most of them don't know a thing about history or economics and just interview other Think Tank officials and diplomats who make their currency in puffing their chests.

[@Kid_Ikaris]

Well said.

[@christopherspavins9250]

I remember a wise teacher that once reminded us that the Chinese saw what happened in Russia and realized it was more important to give people economic freedom first than to give them Democracy. Western capitalism doesn't stand a chance against the Chinese government. Wonderful lecture and beautiful stated.

[@quanhusheng6637]

That's totally true. So great that you had such a wise teacher.

[@rh5340]

David Harvey, even though not a so-called china expert, actually much more knowledgeable than those so-called experts of think tanks. Very good explanation.

[@eddieleong6490]

I am born and raised in Malaysia, had my university education in Japan, worked extensively in many countries with the world's largest Oil company. I worked and lived in China for some year. Prof Harvey has produced an excellent documentary and I intend to support his work. Not because he is talking up China but because he has an excellent grasp of what China is today and where China is heading.

[@merryyoule6432]

I have listened to several podcasts and found them to be most informative and presented in a manner which I find engaging and clear. Thank you for sharing your expertise, knowledge, and perspective in this manner.

[@christinajonsson7208]

This lecture about China is excellent and interesting. It should make Americans think about how inefficient we are, and it costing us a lot.

[@jhproductions2307]

Maybe a Universal Basic Income is necessary for the future as the future of labor and work gets redefined and removed.

[@kin9857]

I am chinese，Let me tell you the current situation in China. The government is doing what they think is right. The people is doing what they think is right. 1% of the Chinese think that we are a socialist country. But 99% of the Chinese don't know what our country is like. We are just exploring and advancing.

[@tinafoster8665]

PLEASE correspond with me here or preferably Facebook, I AM VERY INTERESTED IN HOW TO MAKE the USA more like China n REDUCE MILITARY TENSION.

[@tinafoster8665]

But there are things about China that are not good, the 3 families in 1 apartment is not good but there are worse fates, and I'm sure the Chinese authorities are making residential flats a top priority but the construction of buildings takes time. I'm wondering about the construction of apartments in China, houses in the USA are framed with 2"×4"s which is basically 20 year lifespan. Are the Chinese building apartment buildings to last at least 200 years? My bf says this is possible using steel, glass n stone (NOT concrete) with wood INNER construction

[@tinafoster8665]

Hhe seriously wants to do construction IN China

[@tinafoster8665]

@Michael R. Pence OHHHH by all means, LET'S FOLLOW the Roman empire's example, ARE U FREEKIN serious? U do kno we have FREE WILL rite, n THERE ARE people working on DEATH TO THE CORPORATOCRACY?

[@iller3]

Ironic.... 99% of people in USA believe that we are a "Capitalist" nation. While the 1% investor class know that we have rigged "upward succession" with exclusive-socialism for Kleptocrats. I say it's ironic, because people are people regardless of Nation. If 99% in one country can be so "in the dark" then so can those in another because both country's "Ruling Classes" are controlling all of the information that _trickles down_ to the general populace.

[@shampayne]

I am an american born chinese. As the 1st generation born here I am so lucky my parents instilled me with the virtues of sacrifice, commitment, and honor. I believe this country still has those ideals, but they have been corrupted to serve greed. So many in this country only honor the dollar and commit to the sacrifice of others for personal gain.

[@robertyw2842]

Excellent dialectic about China.

[@waynet8953]

The speaker has insight into the Chinese system of government and culture. It's an example of meritocracy at its heart, more so than the western knee jerk reaction to communism. The Chinese culture is more capitalistic than any other culture; and that's before there was a word for it. One interpretation of the word meritocracy to business can be translated as survival of the fitest or best. Intellectual property, as a legal concept is a creation of capitalism and the modern legal system. It was never part of the Chinese society/culture or any other old society.

[@orangutan324]

Agree. Just check who is behind Southeast Asian booms now.

[@lucas.soorholtz]

I read this five times. The sentences still don't make much sense to me and they certainly don't connect to form a coherent whole. No intention to shit into anyone's coffee, but it is a mystery to me how 23 people upvoted this...

[@yabyum108]

Fantastic video. Prof Harvey goes from strength to strength. This is why I love the Internet.

[@merbst]

You also love the internet? Me too! What plant is that in your profile photo? If it is a Dandelion, that is an amazing coincidence, because I have founded a non-profit organisation named DandelionLabs. If you feel like emailing me, my email address is my name at gmail dot com.

[@alexanderpeca7080]

(Development) Economists know all the tricks that might develop a country - the most salient reason why China is having that success is because it is hard for the West to dictate economic policy tailored to their interests (above all 'comparative advantage'). In a Nutshell, China built enough military power, so that it cannot be pushed around.

[@doctornokay9773]

US didn't push china around in the Korean war. that was a first non win for US. the first gulf war was a wakeup call for china to modernize its military. and china has countered effectively every move by the US.

[@erickrcisneros]

wikct2 So true!

[@josephdewuhan]

Well said. But being powerful enough militarily is necessary but not sufficient for economic success. China also has strong and focused leadership, sound economic policies, ......

[@alexanderpeca7080]

@@josephdewuhan yes. I also jump directly into military power. In between is diplomacy of course. What I believe is that 'sound economic' pressuposes liberty to do so. In Geo Politics is definitively military might plays a huge role (only later economic leverage after an economy is developed an the military option becomes less important)

[@tomgreg2008]

Fascinating. Thank you so much, Professor Harvey!

[@sampopovic6344]

Fascinating Professor Harvey. if china is so good you should move to china and live there why do you live in united state and push your communist agenda let someone from china tell you how china is.

[@Nine-Signs]

Dear David, I am from Coventry UK, thank you for all your years of work. Might I suggest you do a video on the "insignificance" of the UK in the global economy. Many of our people could use a wake up call given they think wasting 2 years arguing over how best to manage a capitalist economy (i.e. brexit or not) will solve all their problems.

[@democracyatwrk]

Noted! Forwarding the suggestion to Prof. Harvey.

[@allypoum]

Like Israel (a fact also lost on many) the U.K. is nowadays no more than a wagging tail on the dog of U.S.- led capitalist imperialism.

[@novosprospectus882]

Agreed here in merseyside liverpool we used to be the 2nd most important maritime trading port in the UK importing raw materials for manufacturing. Now it's a shadow of it's former self relying on the service economy.

[@Nine-Signs]

@@democracyatwrk Thank you :o)

[@Tampa0123456789]

@@novosprospectus882 And what do you think is happening to us here in the States? At lease you people in the UK know your empire is long gone. We here in the US of A still act like Roman Empire not noticing that roads , schools , bridges , are falling apart. We had a Gov shut down for a just a month and that was enough to cause people trouble. These were well paid GOV workers too. Not fast food. The United States is living on fantasy. I envy Germany for not getting rid of their good paying unions jobs.

[@quanhusheng6637]

By far, this is the best one I even viewed talking about Chinese economy, government role, crisis solving, competition from a western expert.

[@scholarlyreader383]

It' s 4:12 am in California I am still watching you doctor of Ph.D in econ. And I am loving it.

[@samebar]

Thank you for this. China is a mystery in the western hemisphere as is oriental culture generally and this goes a significant way to demystifying the modern Chinese portion of that. China's is an ancient and complex culture and it's interesting to note that after numerous visits, personal contact and consuming as much it's literature that he deemed pertinent as he could, Mr Harvey admits that he has a long way to go to fully grasping it's complexities. After listening to this I am left with the feeling that one lifetime may not be enough.

[@Camcolito]

There is nothing mystical about it. It's an authoritarian state that can grow rapidly by being the world factory while ignoring pesky issues like the environment and workers rights.

[@samebar]

@@Camcolito That's a closed preconceived explanation which means you'll learn no lessons from the world's fast growing dominant economy, but it has nothing to do with why I said it's a mystery to the western hemisphere. It's not only a mystery now but always has been. The ability to combine communism with aspects of capitalism and then to convert that into not only a cohesive, successful but also a dominant world economy in such a short space of time is something we should all learn from. It's something that has never been done before.

[@Camcolito]

@@samebar Not really, the Soviet Union did something similar - convert a peasant backwater into an industrial powerhouse in rapid fashion. And they did so through similar means - careful central planning and absolute control bulldozing any objections or worker rights. It's a very effective way to expand GDP. China is just a modern version. Westerners looking to China as the great socialist savior are deluded. It's a profoundly anti-democratic state capitalist colossus.

[@samebar]

@@Camcolito That's way off the mark. The Soviets did it by the eradication of capitalism under heavy duress from other world powers through sanctions and threat of invasion....the precedent to which was a foreign invasion in while it was in it's infancy. The threat materialized and it didn't take a crystal to see it as it came from a leader who was rising to prominence in the 1920's just before Stalin started the first five year plan, a leader who had planned an invasion of the USSR in his book Mein Kampf published in 1924. After World War II the Americans applied Nuclear pressure for the USSR to expand, but they did it by cutting themselves off from the world market and without private ownership. The Chinese recognized this wasn't working for them so they included themselves in the world market and allowed private ownership, which has now put them in a dominant position in the world market, playing the western powers at their own game, something the USSR never did. As a consequence the living standard of the most populated country in the world has risen immeasurably while the western hemisphere is stripping it's workers to swaddle it's ruling class while it's infrastructure falls apart. You should really watch this video before arguing your case against comments on it's thread.

[@Camcolito]

@@samebar So what are you saying, that China has been very successful by allowing but carefully managing (through an absolutist state) capitalist exploitation of its own population and the crushing of any dissent? And that is good news for socialism how?

[@ShredMota]

Once again thank you DAW and professor Harvey for this this talk! Such a cliffhanger at the end.

[@cifsman]

OMG these the best explanation china role in Global economy, i seen many western youtube but never explain these Good. Since ancient time China are meritocracy society they admire power,strength,success.

[@mrzack888]

Africa gonna have faster roaming internet than modernized nations. Lol.

[@etow8034]

Africa already has faster and more modern railways then anywhere in North America !

[@duarraltd9118]

qz-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/qz.com/africa/1001477/kenya-has-faster-mobile-internet-speeds-than-the-united-states/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fqz.com%2Fafrica%2F1001477%2Fkenya-has-faster-mobile-internet-speeds-than-the-united-states%2F

[@duarraltd9118]

Kenya has faster Internet than America. Check the link I sent.

[@cathyyu333]

Shouldn't be surprised!

[@erictang3635]

No surprise! China build the rail and the net for the Africans.

[@Gaiafreak6969]

A cliffhanger! When is the next episode coming out?

[@democracyatwrk]

We will release the next video next week! Stay tuned, and get early access on Patreon: www.patreon.com/davidharveyacc

[@reginaldmorton2162]

fxck the next ep, this one has revealed to light for CA tech.

[@thegeneralist7527]

Brilliant analysis! The Chinese have beaten us at our own game which is unfettered technological competition. This is the basis of evolutionary theory in that competition and survival of the fittest yields the highest fitness and adaptation to the environment. Telecommunications is the golden ring of the information age, whoever controls the exchange of data controls the world, and this is why the US is fighting back against Huawei. This is a battle to control information, read it, change it, delete it and deny it. The open systems interconnection model (OSI model) dictates control at the lowest level of the telecommunication network: The physical, data link, network and transport layers of the Internet - the hardware, basic operating system and data transport functions. Information security dictates that you must control these basic functions communications or the whole of communications is at jeopardy.The US simply cannot allow the Chinese to dominate the lower levels of the OSI model and control all communications. This also forms the basis of freedom of navigation of the seas - whoever controls the physical layer controls the local network, and higher layers of the model control larger areas of the network. AI is a new area of competition and is highly dependent on the Internet for communications of course. Without secure communications there cannot be secure AI. This presents a critical problem for the CCP. In order to be granted access to the network they must be 100% secure. There will come a point where they will be denied access to the network because they are not trusted. AI operates at the application layer of the OSI model and will be useless unless the rest of the layers are secure. This will be a turning point in history and Canada is at the center of it as usual. Now is the time for this battle MUST be fought. What is at stake is the very freedom that our democracy depends upon. Freedom of speech. The CCP does not protect freedom of speech, and it does not allow freedom on the Internet. If China controls the Internet and the secure communications that are essential to it then all of mankind's freedoms are at stake

[@Gaiafreak6969]

@@thegeneralist7527 great comment besides the freedom stuff. The west only protected "freedom of speech" when it was the sole purveyor of information globally. Now that we're entering a multi polar world, the facade of free speech is going to crumble and enter real politic just like every country that was subject to the west's b.s very soon.

[@thegeneralist7527]

@@Gaiafreak6969 Thanks for the reply but I must disagree. We take freedom for granted because we have it, but its legacy goes back to English common law. Freedom encompasses many things, most basic is freedom of thought in the Orwellian sense. You can see this in the CCP "reeducation" camps trying to bring people back into line with the communist ideology. Also the freedom to be who you want to be, do what you want to do, freedom of religion and the freedom of association. The CCP does not grant the Chinese people any of these basic freedoms that are enshrined in the UN declaration of human rights. This is why Huawei cannot be allowed to dominate the Internet infrastructure. It is a direct threat to the most basic value of western civilization.

[@frankiedyon]

Wow another socialist society pulling ahead for their people. Damn we in the USA really need some socialism.

[@tinafoster8665]

@Soul Mission Bernie is like FDR--- TRYING TO SAVE capitalism from itself. Unfortunately, the current MAIN tenet, raison d'etre, (American) CAPITALISM'S MAIN feature today is A PSYCHOTIC GREED that forgives anything, AS LONG AS it makes the capitalist extremely rich. How rich is extremely rich? Well that's where the psychosis is--- NO LIMIT. NO BARRIERS to how that money's made. Do u kno, crystal meth IS ON the "big board" : it's just called "XYZ group or whatever

[@mykolassakalauskas3374]

@Soul Mission Bernie's Sanders socialism is not socialism at all. Just some socialistic policies. But it is right move. It will save capitalism or help to make transition. Otherwise some doomsday Sci-Fi movies will be reality.

[@duggygee6387]

@Soul Mission - What Bernie is advocating for is an FDR-style democracy. It's what America embraced after the Great Depression that lasted until the 1960's & 70's. The middle class prospered during this time and we had a healthy and stable economy.

[@reginaldmorton2162]

god damn right we do!!

[@tinafoster8665]

@@duggygee6387 yes that's true, SOME made it into the "middle class" but they were ALWAYS vulnerable n always WILL b vulnerable to the psycho class. The Depression WAS NOT an actual depression, it was an END of free spec which was in a way good, FDR HIRING BIG JOE KENNEDY to recommend laws to stop people from getting rich LIKE HE did. Beyond that, the "depression" was THE FED CALLING ITS MONEY HOME.This was done for various reasons but MAINLY as social "shock" into ACCEPTING THE NEW industrial farming paradigm : from MILLIONS of small producers to AGRIBUSINESS USING FUEL POWERED TRACTORS rather than a farmer with a mule. MILLIONS uprooted to STEAL BILLIONS FOR THE FEDERAL RESERVE n the criminals who own it.

[@olivermanor1053]

Very good in depth analysis! thank you so much... much more of an expert than many self-styled ones!

[@daddyaf945]

The priority in the United States has become propping up billionaires. The focus must become improving an excellent and sustainable standard of living for the population. This will likely mean the eradication of the investor class as well as the billionaire and possibly the millionaire aristocracy.

[@allypoum]

Ending the capitalist mode of production exchange & distribution should be the focus if we want to survive.

[@daddyaf945]

Alasdair Church none of those bad. It’s the top down management without democracy in the workplace that has led to the current problems. Workers don’t send their own jobs over seas. Absentee investor owners are a terrible idea. Workers should decide how much profit to pay taxes on or how much to invest back into a company.

[@allypoum]

As a Marxist I don't believe that the goal of our movement should be mere reform of capitalism but as a pragmatic socialist I understand that incremental changes can & should be made - which is why I'm an active member of UK Labour & Corbyn supporter. Capitalism itself is while a historically-necessary precondition for the creation of a post-scarcity productive capacity (China being a case in point) upon which socialism can be built, just has exploitation in its - if you will - DNA.

[@Tampa0123456789]

@Daddy AF If voters would stop voting in Billionaires that might give us a fighting chance. The votes vote for the rich and wonder why they do stuff for rich people.

[@daddyaf945]

Alasdair Church I see the ultimate goal as knowing quality and value and having the skill and craftsmanship to create a society embedded in nature. Billionaires know how to accumulate money and review metrics and data. They aren’t so great at making things with their hands that will last. Money is not the goal.

[@annliu7640]

My major is economics and finance. I live in Canada. I do like these videos from wise economists. They are very objective and sound. 10-20 years ago, we were still arguing if China was faking its GDP. Now we simple don’t discuss such a stupid question. Many elites in USA realized the value of Chinese market and we saw how many Fortune 500 companies operating in China. However, not many Canadian elites realize this. All our wise ppl moved to USA and I feel hopeless to see Canadian government on its way to give up Chinese market. 🤷‍♂️ Many of our business has 20% increase on sale in Chinese markets.

[@laylowstaylow]

I do agree about that China has their own system and way of thinking, but also don't forget it's base on their history and culture, other countries have to figure out their own system, you can't just copy Chinese, US, EU....

[@danielhmorgan]

thank you for the enlightening view; concise yet thorough insights into an under-reported and important topic

[@fooksengloke3625]

Chinese have something in their bones which allows them to survive for thousands of years: 安分守己，乐知天命 ( Behave and do what you need to do and be happy with what you are). If every person is concerned with being given more or being treated better than his fellow men or colleagues, then there will be a lot of unhappiness and conflicts. On a national basis and between countries, this will lead to war. This might seem obvious to many Chinese but it is not easy to understand for cultures brought up in a different way and holding a different value system.

[@loktom4068]

It's not Communist, Democratic, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, Socialist, and nationalism. You can call all you wanted. But there's no clue about what it is. Rather in reality is called NEW FUSION political system. Getting the best of all political system in one fusion reaction in action. While avoiding the worst of each old political systems.

[@Pemulis1]

American politicians blather on about 'values' (so they don't have to talk about something that might anger their owners, usually), but here is a place where competing values highlight the difference. In China, it appears to me that the value is 'positive results' (maybe even 'for society as a whole' which might be a legacy of socialist thinking). In America, the goal is positive results benefiting the elites, and certainly not harming them (hence political reluctance to implement the no-brainer of Medicare for all). It's like America has the giant tapeworm of elite interest which China does not (they actually sometimes jail billionaires, rather than giving them cabinet positions).

[@aaron11679]

I found something quite interesting here: English has only one word "politician" for whoever does politics. Chinese uses 政治家 for good politician with vision and responsibility; 政客 for someone chases short, personal power. The same for scientist, and other occupations

[@timcollins1131]

To suggest that copying (IP theft) was not an integral part of the rise of the original Silicon Valley, indicates a very naive understanding of how the US works.

[@jacquelineliu7447]

FYI 1. "if you're on the internet playing video games, you're considered unproductive you lose points for that" -- FAKE 2. "if you' get caught cutting across and jaywalking you lose your scores" -- FAKE 3. "if you're walking your dog without a leash you lose your scores for that" -- IT DEPENDS, SOME CITIES DO 4. "if you get a parking ticket you don't pay it you lose your scores" -- TRUE 5. "if you get a parking ticket you lose scores for that" -- FAKE 6. "if you're buying to much alcohol you get demerits for that" -- BULLSHIT, or are you just telling a joke? I'm a Chinese citizen, and I know EXACTLY what's going on, UNLESS the government doesn't inform me when I lose my scores? To be honest, I'm unsatisfied with the CP in a way, but facts are facts.

[@theresbob8878]

Is everyone humming “The Internationale” anthem yet,,,I have for sixty some odd years!

[@glgina6]

Wow! Fantastic shoe! Thank you.

[@twopieceswouldbenice9258]

@shinvergil777 hahaha

[@waikikiman007]

Its not that China may be the future of Capitalism, rather its is the future of Socialism. A mix of Centralization in broad goals and decentralization in ideas and innovation to achieve these goals for the benefit of society as a whole. This is similar to Post War Japan until 1989 when a economic bubble was deliberately engineered to bring about a financial crisis to enable structural reform to Japans economy to be more in line with the US Capitalism. Japans post war economic miracle was based on a centralized 'war' economy. Facilitated by the treasury in a process called 'window guidance' But instead of producing weapons it was directed to produced consumer goods that were in demand in the US and western countries. Individual corporations and entrepreneurs were left to innovate and compete s to how best to achieve this goal.

[@flywithholyspirit]

Amazing how they can change something on a National scale and make it work so fast. Thank you.

[@JC-sl7bs]

When I started reading out A B C D E..., I was copying others knowledge, didn't I?

[@k.m.jordan4774]

China has less reasons to discriminate and strategize against each other...they have a shared racial/history/heritage. Americans politically/economically sabotage other Americans and as a result hurt its progression as a whole nation.

[@ElHazSensor]

this is flat out false, Chine has huge diversity within itself, it has multiple languages and it has a decentralized administrative system. They are currently discriminating against muslim population of western China and has a lot of religious differences within, you're just projecting what you think a growing and powerful economy should be (homogeneous in race, history and heritage) instead of looking at reality. China is a very complex country, saying they have "shared racial/history/heritage" is just introducing those factors (especially race/heritage) as economically imprtant when their not.

[@agusagus-ci2id]

USA can make F 35, cyber defense, mars and pluto probe, etc, why US can not owned testing of 5G huawei ??. (testing equipped with US original software program development).

[@Userkzb20253]

The most factual accounts and objective view about China I have ever heard so far, more like a historian’s account. Great job!

[@yeusean]

Any other capitalism is better than corporate controlled capitalism.

[@Glory-to-God.]

Huawei was founded in 1987, Alibaba 1999, Tencent 1998...what does he mean by these companies didn't exist before 2010.

[@landflame]

David Harvey is David Harvey!!!!!

[@alfredogutierrez6682]

It's not so complicated , just ask yourself one question. Are Chinese workers the owners of the means of production? The answer is NO. It is therefore a capitalist economy.

[@Camcolito]

I agree, and I hate people like Richard Wolff and David Harvey singing China's praises as a beacon of socialism.

[@Camcolito]

@BLAIR M Schirmer I'm a fan of Wolff, and Harvey. I think they have almost everything right. Wolff uses China as an example of 'rapid growth under socialism' all the time. This is very misleading and harmful in my opinion.

[@Camcolito]

@【a s d f】 【j k l ;】 He uses it as a throwaway reply to idiotic right wingers who say socialism never works and capitalism delivers the goods etc. He says China is growing at such and such percent per year, much more than the West. This is misleading as it implies China is socialist - it isn't. It's an absolutist state. Workers control nothing in China.

[@alfredogutierrez6682]

@na na Just because a country has some collectively-owned (i.e. socialist) companies doesn't make it a socialist socio-economic system. There are collectively-owned companies around the world, including the United States. Spain has the largest workers' coop in the world, Mondragon Corp., but the country is still capitalist. Take a look at these statistics: www.statista.com/statistics/252924/employees-at-state-owned-collective-owned-and-private-enterprises-in-china/. You'll see how the number of private enterprises is the only one increasing in China.

[@alfredogutierrez6682]

@na na The question is not how much government intervention a country has, no matter whether it is to help corporations or to help the society. It's really a lot simpler. You only have socialism if the workers own the means of production and participate democratically in every decision affecting their lives. This has never been achieved so far by any country at the society level, (except maybe to some extent by Israel back in the times when the kibbutz was their preferred way of production). Not until the workers's coop model of enterprise is the dominant economic model and workers and communities make all the decisions.

[@alexandreprince8254]

For a moment I thought that was Corbyn.

[@umarslatif]

Wow, a mind changing speech.... I am actually at loss of words and trying hard to assimilate.....

[@ipfreak]

for china, i think, "marxism" is a guideline, not a playbook or manual script. chinese people learned big lessons in the course of building up PRC, there shall never be dogmatic for anything in terms of finding the ways to build up the country. what more important, the westerners have their version of governing structure, which is we chinese know as "voting democracy". for chinese people, there is chinese version of governing structure called "min zhu". "min" is translated as people, straightforward, no confusion. "zhu" could be translated as "master", "prime" "host, or "owner". china usually translated together as "people oriented". so any "ism" must conform the precondition of chinese "min zhu", must be "people oriented", must fit china's history, china's culture. i am not anti-capitalism nor i am pro-capitalism. if any anti-something, i am anti-dogmatism. when one always brings up this "ism", that "ism", well, i can tell you, failure is coming ...

[@david-lonewolf8924]

ip desperado precisely!!!

[@LinLinvy]

If people truly read Marx, people would know that his work is a guideline, not a step by step guide on how to reach socialism. Western leftist and other dogmatic Marxist are not Marxist at all. They are just something of a cult that praise big communists personality.

[@devonrusinek5807]

30:34 That seems like some moral hazard for the local governments to make those four years look really good on paper. I have to wonder if this is what leads to a lot of Chinese shadow banking.

[@quanhusheng6637]

If he only makes the paper looking good, he definitely will pay for that later. Remember that, as he said, other majors are his competitors to climb up.

[@BlueGiant69202]

The mention of use of cement reminded me very strongly of the Fortune Magazine article of February 1940 on U.S. Industrialization that was highly influenced by R. Buckminster Fuller. The article was full of statistics and charts. I would like to see something similar for 21st century China, perhaps alongside the ideas of Peter Hall and Paschal Preston's 'The Carrier Wave: New IT and the Geography of Innovation'. "It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. " - R. Buckminster Fuller, 1970, "The New York Magazine Environmental Teach-In" by Elizabeth Barlow in New York Magazine (30 March 1970), p. 30 "Wealth is our organized capability to cope effectively with the environment in sustaining our healthy regeneration and decreasing both the physical and metaphysical restrictions of the forward days of our lives." - R. Buckminster Fuller U.S. Industrialization, Fortune, February, 1940 World Game Series: Document 1, pp. 47-74 www.bfi.org/sites/default/files/attachments/literature_source/world_game_series_document1.pdf "Whoever has the most customers is going to win in the great industrial battles. This is very important. We lost an enormous number of customers when we lost China as a friend." - R. Buckminster Fuller, 1967 (kzbin.info/www/bejne/oavReJdjmdegkKM)

[@stanjones2126]

Some interesting discussions on this comment section. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on how Tesla will do with the new wholly owned plant they're building in China. Why has China agreed to this?

[@jparsit]

Do you mean Tesla?

[@tonysu8860]

Today, 3 years after this video was published China's economy has changed radically mostly for the worse and China's outlook has changed radically. the most recent China 5 year plan which was announced a year ago recognized the near absolute failure to achieve goals in the previous 5 year plan, particularly in most critical areas of technology including semiconductor manufacturing and jet turbofan technology, but extends to many other areas as well. China has had a self-reckoning about its ambitions to eventually overtake, challenge and dominate the American and global economies, and has decided to crack down and discourage further achievements in the "virtual economy" and instead redirect efforts in the "physical economy." This is having a major effect on Internet related companies which have been major profit and wealth generation centers and curiously the CCP has decided not to allow those to thrive but to destroy the prospects of those enterprises. Speaking of wealth generation and profit centers, the CCP also instituted the "3 red lines" to address China's heavy dependency on debt based RE investment which comprises an inordinately high 29% of annual GDP. A certain amount of wealth generation is beneficial if a significant portion is redirected to such things as small business creation and R&D but wealth creation for wealth creation's sake is a problem China is facing... investments unlike businesses do not employ workers and produce goods and services which results in concrete achievements, benefits the health and productivity of workers and food to eat. In 2021, China also suffered from a major combination of bad central management decisions, natural disasters likely attributed to Climate Change, economic implosions and other major disruptions related to change, Pandemic related lockdowns, food shortfalls and so on. Today, there is a major exodus of foreign capital investments and businesses due to deteriorating business conditions both self-inflicted by unfriendly business practices and sanctions. Bascally, China's economy is a mess in almost every way possible.

[@eottoe2001]

One of the things about the intellectual rights and patents is that it is making it harder to innovate here. I bet good money that Apple is still collecting royalties from VisiCalc. There is music from the 50s and 60s that from old copyrights would have been public domain that ASCAP is still sucking up fees. Think about what if patents ran as long as copyrights, would cars have disk-brakes or variable speed windshield wipers? Probably not. One had to wonder what tech in the US would look like if things like VisiCalc weren't an economic drag on innovation. What we have here is about keeping things the same and collecting rent. With the lack of a capital diversity -- meaning multiple investment sources -- there isn't a lot of experimentation either. Thanks for a good video.

[@cultphetus]

For being one of the most prominent Marxist theorists, Harvey seems to have sacrificed a lot to neoliberalism. His whole argument about China being somehow different is just there's more state investment. At this point he is not arguing a qualitative difference with capitalism, only a quantitative one. Ian Bremmer has a much more interesting idea of how China's state capitalism is of a different variety which Harvey never even suggests.

[@landflame]

I wish those who struggle to seek for ways to "make America great again" would never watch this vid.

[@anneporter123]

I have seen some videos about Chinese construction which put forth the idea that the construction is terrible and it falls down in 2 years. If the construction is useless will that eventually have an effect on their economy?

[@naimulhaq9626]

Prof. Harvey admits not to understand much of the Chinese phenomenon, but sound right about the essential American slogan of printing money like mad, adapted by the Chinese, thanks to American trained economists from MIT, Harvard, Yale etc. to run the Chinese universities. They promoted spending after developers and spending after consumers, giving loans to those who bought new houses etc. Resulting in four largest banks in the world, followed by a fifth from Japan and the sixth from US. Cambridge university's O' Level books preach a kind of trick, in which if you ask for a loan, a bank will create a fictitious fund from which they provide the loan ( a Jewish scheme, hatched up by Rothschild). The system works fine as long as these firms pay back for five years. Comparatively Indian farmers couldn't pay back loans and killed themselves in large numbers. Although India boasted a democratic state, their leaders failed to see that depriving human rights to the majority, handicapped growth, yet they never even thought of banning the caste system, preferred to remain slumdog poor. The Chinese system seems to have travelled a knife edge. The trick they employed is centralized and decentralized policy successfully. Their motto was 'democracy and autocracy function together. In China the people got the fruit of their policy, but in India, only a handful got to keep the cream. Even Trump's trade war, seems to back fire on US, but the Chinese seem to tackle with confidence, although the economy slowed a little.

[@danielscheinhaus5210]

That was interesting for we who find it hard to visit China ourselves. We didn't know that Chinese companies are themselves producing computers, cell phones and other electronics I assume, so that it's harder for US companies to sell their electronics. We also didn't know that China is becoming a cashless society.

[@armstrongchan1417]

The chinese economy is no longer in the phase of copycat which was common decades ago, now has moved to another phase of innovation and R&D, that is why chinese company Huawei 's 5 G technoledges is far way ahead of the USA counterpacts.

[@SS-hh4eu]

Already Started recommending this channel to my friend's

[@rf9164]

Impressive presentation. Like your observations and you can make us think.

[@lacanian1500]

this guy has a very relaxing voice

[@MichaelConway1308]

Love the content. The format is good but could be better. Maybe a conversation instead of a lecture could be used at some point. I can't wait to see what the future holds for China and for us here in the US.

[@julypj2880]

Excellent Speech From India Kerala

[@thegeneralist7527]

Brilliant analysis! The Chinese have beaten us at our own game which is unfettered technological competition. This is the basis of evolutionary theory in that competition and survival of the fittest yields the highest fitness and adaptation to the environment. Telecommunications is the golden ring of the information age, whoever controls the exchange of data controls the world, and this is why the US is fighting back against Huawei. This is a battle to control information, read it, change it, delete it and deny it. The open systems interconnection model (OSI model) dictates control at the lowest level of the telecommunication network: The physical, data link, network and transport layers of the Internet - the hardware, basic operating system and data transport functions. Information security dictates that you must control these basic functions communications or the whole of communications is at jeopardy.The US simply cannot allow the Chinese to dominate the lower levels of the OSI model and control all communications. This also forms the basis of freedom of navigation of the seas - whoever controls the physical layer controls the local network, and higher layers of the model control larger areas of the network. AI is a new area of competition and is highly dependent on the Internet for communications of course. Without secure communications there cannot be secure AI. This presents a critical problem for the CCP. In order to be granted access to the network they must be 100% secure. There will come a point where they will be denied access to the network because they are not trusted. AI operates at the application layer of the OSI model and will be useless unless the rest of the layers are secure. This will be a turning point in history and Canada is at the center of it as usual. Now is the time for this battle MUST be fought. What is at stake is the very freedom that our democracy depends upon. Freedom of speech. The CCP does not protect freedom of speech, and it does not allow freedom on the Internet. If China controls the Internet and the secure communications that are essential to it then all of mankind's freedoms are at stake.

[@antontanaka9235]

excellent video about China.

[@goChillax]

Interesting listen. Fuck I need more

[@jmpompey1]

You can't really compare China''s response to the 2007/08 crisis with western economies. China's economy still had/has huge scope to grow compared to the mature economies so it could double it's national debt to support it's economy knowing there was a good chance the size of its economy would also double within the next 7-10 years. If a developed country doubled it's debt it would take over 40 years without austerity to reach pre crisis debt levels.

[@user-uz6cj5sq3y]

Did Xi really literally say that? 2050 true socialism? Never pay attention to politics. So never heard of that, in fact nobody around me ever talked about that, but i am Chinese living in China and thinking we are socialism already.

[@MRJJJarhead]

I, for one, am certainly holding my breath for the big question: what happens when labour is removed from the production process? Something to point out: on the flip side of the rise of the tech entrepreneurship in China is the ineffectiveness of labour law combined with the ruthless nature of capitalism. One of my friend worked in a tech company for a couple of years and had to work 6 days a week routinely, sometimes to 10p.m. In the end, his health was so deteriorated he couldn't keep up and went back to uni for a master degree. Also, will the tech gaints become the new oligachs or will CCP redistribute the benefit to the people？As it is now, the policies favour the tech industry and the new energy industry, and that is good, but in the long run, it WILL creat economic injustic, and somehow I have litte confidence that CCP will do something about that.

[@democracyatwrk]

Excellent points. Future episodes will touch on these themes. ;)

[@Camcolito]

​@@democracyatwrk This is common practice in China. Workers have no rights whatsoever.

[@LHKKKing]

Never heard of the depopulation agenda? the trend of decreasing fertility? Georgia Guidestones's perfect balanced 500 Million global population etc? There are people thinking way ahead of the tide. Don't worry about the labor right too much in the future, when automation revolution kicks in, there won't be many human labor to be needed.

[@LHKKKing]

@@Camcolito "This is common practice in China. Workers have no rights whatsoever." reminds me of Nestle/Nike etc slavery in oversea and Amazon's worker rights, what a good old tradition.

[@zlyan8397]

I am afraid this question does not have an answer. If labor becomes completely unnecessary during the production process. For the capitalist, there will be no necessity for the corporations to provide a somewhat decent humane living condition to its employees. Those who have little or no creativity lost their mean for a living. Therefore, they will complete relying on others' empathy to survive since they can no longer produce profit for the companies. In another world, another sort of authoritarian government or "TradeUnion" will take over instead of a Democratic Government.

[@zpetar]

At beggining of 90's some US politician or maybe economist, I don't remember" said "China is biggest player in history of world" Now we will see how big is biggest.

[@veritasnunc8749]

Neither a pure socialist or pure capitalist economy works. Real economists who have doctorates and have published, both the math and theory. know this. All countries have a mixed economy, with part government and part private sector. Any one who is pure capitalist of pure socialist is a schizophrenic because those states do not exist. I am an American economics professor who worked in teaching and research in China decades and I also did the same in America and have worked for Congress and the UN. Common sense that you all have tells you we need both government and private sectors.

[@thegeneralist7527]

I must disagree on the basis of evolutionary theory. Competition - survival of the fittest - is what drives evolution, adaptation and extinction. Until an economist can mathematically prove a policy or course of action is optimal capitalism will always trump a planned economy. Rules and guidelines merely constrain the paths of possible success.

[@veritasnunc8749]

You are a great guy and very brilliant. I am a well published economist of over 35 years in the field. I never said one (capitalism or socialism ) b was better than the other - not once. I never ever say that. That debate is for politicians. POLITICIANS WANT TO HAVE THAT DEBATE. I just said at this time we have a mixed economy. It is an economic fact that there is no pure socialist or pure capitalist in major countries, period. That is all I said and if anyone likes politics, instead of economics, that is fine. I am apolitical and always was. I have worked in government, business and academia. There are plenty of politicians you can debate with. I dislike politics. Indeed I helped get both Repubs and Demos thrown in prison, whenever they tried to fudge data. Most economists do not care for politicians. Notice I said "most." Those kinds of people are dishonest in other ways, like stealing and that is how you get them. To me politicians are just sales people and I guess we need them.. I doubt you understand my meaning and I know you CAN understand the very limited usefulness of making posts on the Internet. If you and I were talking in person is would be a million times better. We do not know each other and thus we can misinterpret each other. take care (I think you may need to debate political people. I do not debate. I only discuss matters with apolitical scientists. The best economists are apolitical and not spin artists.) If you are not an economist , just do not worry about. You can go outside your home right now and debate all kinds of people. I am a well paid economist. I am sure you are well paid at something. Perhaps you are a lawyer. They take a stand as part of their work. My older brother is a multi-millionaire atty and I sure respect him. We never debate each other. We go together on fishing and hiking trips. I think you are a great guy. I would like to go fishing with you.

[@thegeneralist7527]

@@veritasnunc8749 Thanks for the reply. Yes. mixed economies for sure are the rule but my instinct is that both governments and corporations can fail. When they do fail, a democracy can easily bring in a new government or form a coalition. In effect the old government becomes "extinct" and a new government is formed that can build anew on the pre-existing institutions and policies. I see this as a flaw in the CCP and communist China's ability to adapt and evolve to changing circumstances. Likewise the beauty of capitalism is that when a company fails a different one rises to take its place. China is too tightly bound to its ideology and this should be a fatal weakness from an evolutionary perspective. I believe the current situation with Huawei and 5G will be a watershed moment. Does the west trust the CCP enough to charge it with providing and maintaining the global telecommunications network? There is just too much at stake from a security perspective.

[@veritasnunc8749]

okay....I see. I feel like democracy is more scarce than ever, in many countries, even somewhat in the USA but really harsh in China.. I did not mention China. in my first post. I was there years. I like the people, not the government. Chinese I know think Xi is taking hem backward to wards more authoritarianism, China has a strong private and strong public sectors. Mao was bad and most Chinese believe that. Mao was very jealous of many people. including Zhou En Lai and Deng Xiao Ping. Now the govt blames Mao for 60 million deaths. I am glad they are more honest than they were on that point. China is more practical on its economics but politically it is not good. I was upset one day and talked to my Dad long distance and he said I should concentrate on teaching and researching and if a more fair government comes to China, it will happen in their time. He had been in China several times, after he retired. The U.S.State Dept hired him for short assignments. I enjoy reading your thoughts.

[@ToadyWoods]

At minute 25:00 I wonder weather he heard/read about all the ghost towns, i.e. empty apartment villages. He seems not to have.

[@rhuephus]

Oh the irony ... your audience lives in countries where youtube is blocked...

[@tsoihoiyat]

Let's get one thing straight: democracy or dictatorship, socialist or communist, nothing works if it was not backed up by excessive material wealth. So, imperialism was the means to make capitalism prosper, captalism is the means to socialism.

[@francoisehembert3243]

Another knowledgeable person on China is Prof Martin Jacques. He has several interesting lectures on KZbin.

[@yeska62]

中国，加油！👍

[@industrialborn]

Amazing video as allways

[@andrealb4363]

Outstanding

[@johnsnow5305]

Conservatives and Libertarians make no sense to me when it comes to government jobs. Let's just assume that they're right about efficiency. Who cares when you have high unemployment? It's far better to have everyone working and contributing to better their country, than to have them be poor and depressed or driven to become criminals. You really can't argue against giving people jobs that help the society, if the private market will not or cannot put them to work. It's just a waste - far more of a waste than any inefficiencies that government jobs may or may not have.

[@wegder]

The International Institute for Strategic Studies in a 2011 report argued that if spending trends continue China will achieve military equality with the United States in 15-20 years.[14] Jane's Defence Forecasts in 2012 estimated that China's defense budget would increase from $119.80 billion to $238.20 billion between 2011 and 2015. This would make it larger than the defense budgets of all other major Asian nations combined.

[@playerone8149]

Good insight. Well done.

[@cklim3614]

Very good narratives

[@zy2870]

Most interesting argument from the speaker: China has a mixed centralization and decentralization that works efficiently, which is fueled by fierce competition, creating much faster speed and higher efficiency

[@hengyan6232]

等各方面赶上美国再说吧，人均GDP也好，国民素质也好

[@jbeihl1]

Professor Wolf I’m a big fan but I got pushback from a conservative uncle recently when I cited China as an example of a mixed Socialisf Economy that is going in a positive trajectory. He said “well only 11 percent of China is middle class and what constitutes middle class in wages is much less then what we make in the States as reported by reputable polling sites. I countered 11 percent of 4 billion is still a huge number and for the economy to increase double digits in ten years says something positive is in the mix. My question is how do you square the lower wages and lower standards of living? Also can you speak to the rumor that the Chinese construction boom is smoke and mirrors meaning these cities that are going up are not being filled?

[@xyzsame4081]

lower wages do not matter if costs of living are lower. that can be publiic healthcare, housing education, childcare .... Income (wages) are lower in wealthy European countries as well - if you look at "wage before deductions ans you see it on the slip" - and it does not look better after the deductions. However you have to see the other labor related costs for the company, the 5 weeks paid vacations, the paid sick leave (maternity leave is paid for by a fund, all companies have to pay into it).

[@xyzsame4081]

They have STATE CAPITALISM to a degree and capitalism with a lot of state intervention. All under a dictatorship - capitalism can co-exist with that just fine. Stalin, Mao and the Western ideologues hating on "Marxism" had all their reason to present it as fact that Marx meant that the government should play a great role in "socialism". Marx hardly mentions the government. Socialism = the workers own the means of production. That is NOT the state, and it also does not mean options to shares. It means that whoever works in the company has a say and a vote (the same voting pwoer) at least in important things (incl. what happens with the surplus = profit). And if they leave the company they do not take a share with them, or can sell it or pass it on the the heirs. That is why Lenin called the system (as they had it in the 1920s) in the S.U. State Capitalsm and as an intermediate stage to the fulfillment of the Revolution. Marx and Socialism was paraded around all the time, these were good brands after all. The bureaucrats top down decided what was going to happen (which also gave them influence over the citizens, their livelihood, who would get a good job. The government owned the means of the production. Directly after the Revolution (the czar was toppled, but not killed, he and family were under house arrest). A lot of co-ops formed, they were called Soviets. But that was too much grassroots democracy at the workplace and when the Bolshevics got increasingly more power, October Revolution, and despite losing the democratic elections - they ended those fledgeling attempts. Can't have dictatorship in the political sphere and democracy in the workplace. The peasant might get ideas. (Stalin the successor of Lenin on the other hand declared the Revolution had reached its goal, just some work around the fringes was still needed). Examples for socialism co-ops (like Mondragon in Spain) or the Kibbuzim system. Or when a community has their own communally owned power plant (and they do have ownership and cannot sell their share to outsiders - orgs can be set up that way to avoid that someone can buy their way into the org and destroy it).

[@mrtsko88]

Are there transcripts of these vids?

[@jmc9756]

The reforms in China started from 1971 (not 1978) after the embargo put on China by the USA was ended by Nixon's government in order to set the scene for the historical visit. Deng's party, in its pursuit of black cat white cat policies lied about history to create a cult of personality around Deng himself, including the massacre in Tiananmen Square 1989, which to this day is still forbidden to mention anywhere in textbooks in China. Having said that, the true economic leap happened after China jointed the WTO in 2001, and the bubble followed a few years on from the 2008 financial crisis. The Gini coefficient hugely widened after too many rounds of QE, and the only socialist characteristic that still exists in China today is that many industries are owned by government, but as for how long state ownership can hold we don't know. Deng is a ruthless murderer who sold socialist China to the USA.

[@Atmost11]

But Harvey was saying that there are very few intellectual property rights, and that the central party issues basic guidelines, and that they have goals to eliminate poverty something which if mentioned in the USA would be said to be, guess what, communism. Harvey mentioned other ways in which China could be said to be socialist.

[@maggieadams8600]

China's getting through a load of cement building cities that no one can afford to live in. Strange brand new cities have sprung up in no time at all. They'll soon crumble without residents buildings do. I think we're all going to have to learn to live with less, because the planet can't sustain endless growth, and it's creating climate meltdown. Political systems only seem to exacerbate mankind's ability to live in harmony with nature be they communist or capitalist.

[@fooksengloke3625]

Maggie Adams The people were not unable to afford those cement buildings. The global economy went limped so jobs from the rural region to the cities could not happen. Those countries like the US and Europe, were in comatose. So that migration from the rural to the urban regions had to stop for the time being. You laugh at a situation caused by your own performance but if one day when Yellow Stone erupts or the cascadian subduction zone shifts and causes a huge tsunami, you will be thankful that someone done some homework and has cement-built buildings for you to move into.

[@maggieadams8600]

@@fooksengloke3625 I'm not laughing at anyone, I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of capitalism and communism, as neither venerates, or really values our natural world, thus making natural disasters not just more likely, but inevitable. I don't think it's funny, and I'm not trying to put China down as I think it's a remarkable country and people. I love all of the peoples and countries of the world, and think it's sad that we are all so divided by politics and religion, which are often used to oppress people and exploit their land by those in power from either political persuasion.

[@Tychoxi]

"yeah, no, we'll totally go socialist by 2050" lol

[@Eharman2011]

Great video!

[@jingangjingxinjing]

How do you say 实践是检验真理的唯一标准 in English?

[@ouldonaunt3262]

In conditions of total surveillance, the consumer transforms into the product. so I would assume that in a condition where AI does the work, the new work will be behaviors which provide information for AI, in order to have us feel that the AI is intelligent. AI can often not produce behaviors which could pass for intelligent actions, were it not for intelligent beings such as ourselves providing the mass of information, any general intelligence AI needs in order to pass off as an inherently intelligent agency. this is yet another way in which the techniques of a technological society may produce a reversal where the destiny of the consumer interleaves with becoming the actual product for a new mode of technological consumerism, in which the actions of consumption produce information as the commodity. therefore when you can shut down the individual under such conditions, you control the means of production. to question these algorithms will come to be viewed as the highest act of subversion. it is already dangerous in China to be seen pandering to westerners distaste for a situation where this total governmental surveillance might be viewed with a high level of distrust or uneasy suspicion. these are often the kinds of inevitable deterministic forms these technological environments produce.

[@eryaozhang2681]

Speak my mind

[@yanpingwang9408]

China doesnt have the uneployment concept per se, for the majority are farmers

[@dinnerwithfranklin2451]

Good talk, thank you

[@ozsharpener]

China is no way a socialism society, let alone communism. China is generally a society of state led capitalism. Inside the leadership they know very clearly and accurately about that and Mao has been recognised as the genuine leader who truly modernised China's social structure by violent revolution. Ironically when they look at India, while they know exactly why India has no hope to effectively modernise its social structure and some leader like Mao might be really needed, they avoid supporting Maoists in India all the way in order to avoid India becoming another modern competing power. That just proves that they definitely know what inherent advantage they are having in another way.

[@yct3369]

Some leaders are good in fighting but very poor in governing and Mao is one of those. Mao had caused the death of many millions of Chinese due to his poor economic policies and the Cultural Revolution caused severe and permanent damage to Chinese culture.

[@warindecembervip6431]

Choice isn't not only capitalism which relying on self interest to servive .

[@Gkuljian]

We're about to witness the environmental results of all of this growth.

[@markhaus]

G Kuljian Though they’ve been the biggest polluter in the past they’re going to have lower emissions than the US in about 5 years due to how quickly they’re developing green infrastructure, despite having over 3 times the population of the US. Right now and in the near future Brazil by deforesting the rain forest and the US for so many reasons are the biggest threat to our climate.

[@ciditan1615]

@@markhaus China forest coverage grow every year. That is the consequence. Check fact.

[@LHKKKing]

+ G Kuljian "We're about to witness the environmental results of all of this growth." Who doesn't? Manufacturing produce pollution, what a surprise that is! Every developed counties are guilty of it.

[@godessworshipper4663]

not really. China has already grown the largest forest on earth. Air pollusion around the country has been greatly reduced. You can see blue sky in Beijing now. Among the 20 most polluted cities, only two are in China, and at least one of them not really caused by factories. Always update your facts, don't stick with stereotype.

[@Gkuljian]

@@godessworshipper4663 A cursory search for carbon emissions by country shows that to be totally false. Here's just one title from 2018- China Emits More Carbon Dioxide Than The U.S. and EU Combined.

[@liuzorich4058]

Excellent analysis on China.

[@DIRKDIGG88]

A white man with perspective Who would have thunk!