Demonstration of 4-Row Janko Keyboard

[@RainerRilke3]

As a professional musician and multi-instrumentalist who's currently learning piano and struggling like never before in my life, seeing this makes me furious at all the Stockholm-syndrome-ridden pianists who refuse to admit their instrument is poorly designed for outdated aesthetic reasons instead of basic ergonomics. Instruments should be made to fit the human body, never the other way around!

[@Persun_McPersonson]

(This comment was originally written and structured much better, but I lost all my progress before I could send it. I hope it's still bearable.) Exactly! People are expected to learn extra technique to deal with the unergonomic and ham-fisted design of the traditional Halberstadt layout instead of the layout being redesigned to be as ergonomic as possible to reduce the risk of injury as much as possible, and thus lighten the already-heavy load placed on the player. The Janko layout has not been without its own problems, however. The many Janko-inspired actions end up trying to fix one or many of these problems, but many introduce their own problems or otherwise forgo some of the original benefits. And so the fixes for these problems are spread throughout different models, with no current consensus on how a Janko keyboard should be. The first thing to tackle is the ratio of key length and width; for example, the Janko in this video actually makes the keys too skinny aswell as allegedly being too long, which Paul addresses in his later Janko designs by making the keys more similar in size to the original Janko design. Another thing Paul gets wrong is in making the keys completely flat; the original Janko's curved keys are more ergonomic and functional. Most alternate Janko designs either make the keys flat (probably due to that just being easier to build or otherwise not realizing the benefit) or instead try to make the keys more ergonomic by making them concave rather than convex, but concave keys have their own extra issues in comparison to both flat and dome-style keys. The first issue with the original Janko design, though, is that the higher rows have much less leverage than the lower rows. Solutions for this have been attempted by different builders with their own bespoke mechanisms, with varying degrees of success. The two best ones seem to be the Pfeiffer mechanism aswell as the one by Paul in the video here, but their limits have not been properly tested and they aren't unlikely to still lack the full level of control one has, with all the nuance in expression that a traditional action does. There's a second problem with the tiers which is the key dip between the different rows being uneven, some of these mechanisms also aiming to fix this at the same time. ~ The Pashkuli Janko-like keyboard takes an entirely different approach to fixing the leverage issue, forgoing a tiered keyboard entirely and instead putting every row on the same plane. The keys are given an shape which is meant to be ergonomic aswell as having extra functionality, including using a sloped shape on the keys that is meant to be ergonomic, simulate the tiered effect of other Jankos, and makes slides easier. Slides are also made easier due to the keys being hexagonal rather than rectangular. The second issue with the Janko is that while the regularity of the keyboard makes relative intervals more intuitive, knowing where you are in absolute pitch space is made more difficult, which is a tradeoff that isn't necessarily better than how the Halberstadt handles things but moreso up to personal preference. However, Paul's later Janko designs (the still-in-progress Daskin-brand Janko MIDI keyboard included) texture the keys so that you can easily tell where you are at any given time, making the argument in favor of the Halberstadt's approach less strong since a textured Janko has benefits from both. The Pashkuli Janko-like initially isn't textured, but the designer has recognized that having the option is important, especially for the blind. The third issue is that the compactness of the keyboard introduces yet more problems with evenness and control. A one-inch reduction in octave size has been proven to be feasible, but anything smaller than that is up in the air. One last ergonomic function to mention is one that no Janko has attempted yet, though it has been attempted on Halberstadts (aswell as one other alternate keyboard design): curving the keyboard as to help with wrist and arm position as you move towards the ends. This presents yet another mechanical problem to overcome when it comes to making the keyboards of acoustic pianos more ergonomic, and I'm unaware of whether this issue has been fixed yet or not.

[@Cr8Tron]

@@Persun_McPersonson Damn, this has to be the most informative comment on this video's entire log of comments?

[@JuanRamónSilva-Piano]

I’m a professional pianists and I find the piano a very natural instrument to play on. Perhaps it’s because I’ve been practicing it for more than a decade. But if you develop good technique nothing should feel uncomfortable. The only real issue I think people might find is for those with smaller hands reaching the octaves could be problematic.

[@hahhey1372]

This piano is not even more ergonomic-- most pieces that have been composed have already been adapted to the classic piano-- I’d like to see a Lisztian arpeggio or a Chopin etude played on this

[@chieflief]

1986 was a good year... and now it's even better. What a gem of a video!

[@MasterOfHelium]

As a self-taught musician I wonder why didn`t this become more popular than the generalized keyboard? This layout encourages you to play in whatever scale you like and doesn`t shove you into major scale and it provides much more convenience when playing chords or transposing a melody to a different key! Maybe this layout is more expensive and tedious to produce, but since piano is already expensive as it is the price is not the matter!

[@JLMoriart]

It think it's because The musical community tends to be very traditional. All change is slow and when you have a disruptive technology like this it is most likely going to be rejected. Think of all the piano teachers that would be out of a job, and think of all the students that wouldn't be able to find a teacher! Someday though it will happen ;)

[@syverlauritz]

As a self taught musician I must say that first line distracted me too much to read the rest of your comment.

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

John Moriarty They wouldn't be without a job; they'd just teach *this method* instead of, or along with, the traditional method. Happy New Year!

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

Yeah, because I liked "Helium's" comment (except for the fact that the person incorrectly ended what was meant as as statement with a question mark).

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

*****, what's "aducated" supposed to mean?

[@jacquesmertens3369]

Finally a video of someone who knows how to play this instrument.

[@jackm2677]

1986! this video seems just right for youtube

[@Kinger1625]

I just saw this for the first time......how the heck do you go through a university degree without seeing or hearing about these keyboards? Fascinatingly awesome! Thank you for sharing!

[@jasonf8910]

I played sax for 10 years before the band major (whos parents were both musicians) finally clued me into the fact that the transition from b to c and e to f were all half steps like sharps and flats usually are. And, it's just that musical scores that we were written for pianos that we even have such a silly naming system. With out him, I'm sure I could have made it though university without recognizing the traditionally keyboard layout was improperly engineered. Now I have a son who's interested in music, and I'm trying to settle on a chromatic notation and chromatic keyboard to start him off with, but having trouble deciding...

[@Kinger1625]

@@jasonf8910 I hope your son enjoys music! It changed my world and still does all the time. It’s crazy the history of these instruments, and they’re improperly tempered. Eddie Van Halen ruined pianos trying to remember them! Lol. He also tuned his guitar a little different so that certain chords sounds more in tune. Crazy world of music. The notation came as music involved, but it’s not perfect.

[@jasonf8910]

@@Kinger1625 If you haven't seen it yet, this is very enlightening about what could be possible: musicnotation.org/

[@Kinger1625]

@@jasonf8910 Wow, now I get what you meant. Sorry, guess I’m a little overwhelmed these days, but yes…..notation and the memorizing keys is different on piano than guitar, as a self taught guitarist for 30, I then went back to school, but struggled to see the guitar the way I see the pian, but the notation…..I completely get what you mean. Seee on guitars, I just move position for easiest of lead examples, but I discovered patterns worked better for me, and doing modes by numbers is easier than reading music. Tablature makes it easier for guitar, but for piano….this style is something I’d love to experiment with. Notation has changed, and could use an upgrade and some new thinking. Thank you for that!

[@BrandonLewisD]

This vid never gets old. I love the huge chords at 5:50 !

[@moontan91]

i wished someone would manufacture a digital version of this with MIDI out. i loved your playing, especially the Bach piece. 👌 this type of keyboard deserves to get a wider exposure.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

There was a digital Janko piano being worked on called the Lippens but they disappeared in 2017. The guy in the video is actually currently working on a Janko MIDI controller called the Daskin.

[@moontan91]

@@Persun_McPersonson i finally decided on the Lumatone: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGWTg4p_g5JjmcU it is the only thing that is still in active development.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

@@moontan91 The Daskin is in development but it's unfortunately slow and is yet to release. The Lumatone is a great choice for those who can afford it, hope you have fun!

[@fabio-vb7xu]

my thoughts exactly

[@ZILtoid1991]

I'm looking into making one myself, using keyboard hall effect switches. Issue is, it's quite hard to get info on how those hall effect switches work, then I also need someone to laser cut a switchplate in my country. In my plans, all the rows will be custom programmable to do custom things, e.g. programming a large drumpad to one side, or doing a "vertical split" where you can just program a different channel output line-by-line.

[@BBoyMokus]

While learning playing piano and music theory, I felt from the very beginning that keyboard design is far from optimal and honestly just a historical coincidence. This looks so much better.

[@taroistok8751]

Find me somoene that plays rach 3 or even a chopin concerto on this and youll see why this is not any improvement. It alliw for a easy fix to many flaw some pianist have...but limit both the dynamic precision and speed of virtuoso passage.

[@skaffen]

@@taroistok8751 The notes are clearly more compact that a regular piano. There are 4 rows. 5:40 He is actually covering that in the video. It's more compact, with always the same fingering, so it's actually easier for a virtuoso passage, here is an example : 7:00

[@BrainBonery]

You are a genius! If Bach or Rachmaninov would have known this piano they would have composed more difficult pieces as well, because of so much possibilities. You are a great pianist, too. Bravo!

[@ЖоржСаргсян]

haha, what about Liszt)

[@atwaterpub]

WOW. I've never heard of anything like this. Amazing. Good work man. You are centuries ahead of us, decades behind us, and sitting right beside us, all at the same time. You are in a Universe all by yourself. Thanks for uploading.

[@alphadream953]

i love this video i randomly come back to it every few years for some reason

[@Persun_McPersonson]

It's just cool :D

[@skiptop1000]

The octave on this keyboard is 5.1" = 129.6mm.

[@chrisp1601]

After watching Benn Jordan’s new video on the Yanko I had to swing back here some many years later. Still dig that big chords piece. Sooooooo classy.

[@PickShark]

I love this so much. I'm learning to play piano and this just seems a million times more intuitive...

[@julianrobbel4118]

Why it seems so?

[@Persun_McPersonson]

@@julianrobbel4118 The guy in the video, Paul Vandervoort, clearly explains the advantages the Janko layout has over the traditional piano layout: Due to the duplicated rows (much like the layouts on a chromatic button accordion, which were actually directly inspired by the Janko layout), every major key and every minor key each have one fingering for each hand-one for major, one for minor-meaning it's easier to transpose a piece. (This applies to every other mode and scale aswell.) On a traditional piano, you need to learn 12 different fingerings for each hand in order to play in every key. Every finger also has plenty of room due to all the keys being the same size, so no one has trouble with putting their fingers in-between the black keys. The keys also have a little more room between themselves, so it's easier to avoid accidentally pressing the wrong note. Due to both of these factors, it's easier to play fast runs aswell. Another advantage of the duplicated rows/tiered keys is that you're a lot less likely to be stuck with an uncomfortable hand position when playing certain combinations of notes. This also means the vaguely-uncomfortable thumb undertuck method utilized on a traditional piano is no longer necessary, aswell as a myriad of more-importantly-uncomfortable hand positions that you can just completely avoid if you play on a Janko keyboard, rather than needing to develop convoluted technique to avoid them. Another plus for people with smaller hands is that the span of an octave is shorter, which reduces hand strain when playing octaves, 9ths and tenths II myself can't even reach a tenth on a traditional keyboard and barely being able to reach a tenth actually applies to _most_ women, revealing a gender bias in the layout aswell

[@beyondthegong]

Freakin’ incredible. You are slaying this thing. Love that key layout!

[@skiptop1000]

Thanks! :-)

[@amjan]

Wow, the is the true, sensible, logical piano our world deserves!!!

[@Persun_McPersonson]

Exactly! And the crazy thing is that it was invented in 1883-this is just a variation of it. All this time and tradition is still stuck to us...

[@jimpemberton]

It looks similar in concept to the bayan accordion keyboard layout. I see the obvious benefits to it as well as a couple of minor drawbacks. So thanks for sharing. I hope it earns a place among traditional keyboards. I play with a lot of guitarists who hand me a chord sheet and then immediately slide a capo on. I've become adept at transposing, but my style differs slightly from one key to the next because of the fingerings. Something like this could fix that.

[@finnanderson92]

I hate when guitar players do that. Just give me the actual chords. I make 2 different chord charts for anything that I play rhythm guitar with a capo on. One with the chord shapes with the capo and one without for all the other musicians.

[@ErikEspangberg]

I absolutely love this idea! This is the invention that is needed to make piano more appealing to play modern music on.

[@skiptop1000]

Someone recently posted this comment here, then apparently deleted it: ------------------------- It'd be nice if you could provide us with some insight into the roadblocks you're facing in trying to develop and release your Daskin keyboards, as the Janko enthusiast community have sort of been left in the dark about it. I guarantee that a good portion of us would back a Kickstarter page if you were to make one. We want nothing more than to see your hard work come to fruition and will gladly help you fund your venture. -------------------------- My Reply: Fair enough. Here’s a summary of the situation. Noel Cragg joined me as a partner in Daskin a few years back. Noel is an excellent software and electronic hardware engineer (as well as an excellent Janko keyboardist). He and I both have day jobs, so we can’t devote as much time to Daskin as we would like. I’m no longer in a position to invest thousands of dollars into the company. Nevertheless, work has been progressing. Slowly. We had a key scanning system which used two DSPs to scan the 243 keys, plus the control panel knobs, pitch/mod wheels, and foot pedals. The system worked, but not very well. One problem was crosstalk between different keys. Just a little crosstalk, but enough to affect things noticeably. Over the course of several years, we tried unsuccessfully to tweak the system to sufficiently mitigate these problems. Microcontroller technology has advanced massively since the original DSP system was designed. We decided to scrap the DSP hardware for a more "distributed computing" model with a Kinetis KE04 microcontroller dedicated to each half row. Developing the new architecture took a while. Now we have a new problem: The KE04 microcontrollers are very popular in the chip-starved auto industry. All the major electronics vendors appear to be pushing the availability dates to Q3 of 2022. So we're now reworking things to use a different microcontroller not favored by the car makers (probably the Atmel/Microchip ATSAMC20) to continue to move things forward. Noel has been facing another challenge this year: His elderly in-laws live on the other side of the USA, and are having serious health problems. Noel and his wife have been doing a great deal of flying back and forth on weekends. They expect to finish the major task of clearing out their home and moving them ~3,000 miles to a nearby apartment in the next few months or so. So that’s where we stand. No one is more frustrated with the seemingly snail-like pace of this project than I. We hope to have a working glitch-free prototype before too long.

[@KnutPeru]

I love this version of Kitten on the keys. Thank you, Paul.

[@skiptop1000]

Thanks Sotapa :-)

[@ShokaLion]

That was awesome to watch. I had a computer program years ago that turned a computer keyboard into a Janko derived sort of instrument. I remember particularly the feature that the shape of whatever you were playing didn't need to change if you wanted to change keys. A very very notable advantage.

[@seankayll9017]

8:54 I think Bach would have thoroughly approved!

[@A-Bosch]

Beautiful piano and some skilled playing, I really like the potential this keyboard layout offers. I wish I could try this for a couple months.

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

Paul Vandervoort As a Singer & Multi-Instrumentalist I can easily find the right key for my Vocal Range especially on Church Gigs & a 108 Key Version w/ this 6 Row layout would rock. There are 6 Row Janko Keyboards which allow you to be even more ergonomic.

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

This instrument is great for Singer Songwriters too.

[@c33r0k33]

Paul you are the absolute master of this instrument. You need some kind of no strings attached grant to fund your playing and (indirectly, that could fund some production.) I'd suggest all of your fans contact the Gilmore Keyboard Festival in Kalamazoo, Michigan and mention this video to them.

[@OrangeVision]

I've always struggled with changing chords, I'd love to test out something like this one day. Great and strangely uplifting video. Chords at 5:54 sent chills down my spine.

[@skaffen]

I don't even want to play on a standard piano anymore after this. Janko makes so much more sense.

[@markpettigrew3482]

I just visited Paul's web site. Man, that is one long song list! Back when I was playing jazz piano, I tended to play only original material. I knew that I couldn't ever hope to get gigs as a lounge pianist unless I substantially increased the number of tunes in my repertoire.

[@Kalerdulius]

A vital point here is that, with Janko keyboards, we would have one good generalized, base key layout, which we can then alter to meet specific needs, i.e use keys of different colors, of different shapes, with different surfaces, reassign keys electronically, use some removable stickers on keys and so on. I cannot say whether all this would be an improvement from a pianist's perspective, but I think it should prove valuable in the field of musical education. So that a teacher possessing appropriate educational methods may have his students not only playing the keyboard but literally playing games with it. Of course, for a composer, using a keyboard of this layout instead of a conventional one may eventually help him develop a more general approach to music composition. All in all, the Janko definitely looks like a composer's keyboard - as well as a polyphonist's and a minimalist's keyboard!

[@altair7001]

I remember seeing an article on this in Keyboard magazine back in the eighties... One advantage I see in this keyboard is that it would be much easier to produce for the electronic instruments we have nowadays, because the similar notes in each row would not need to be mechanically connected together as in a mechanical piano. In an electronic instrument, the keys only actuate a switch, so it's very easy to put the two switches in parallel. It wouldn't cost much more for manufacturers to go with this keyboard.

[@johnnynoirman]

An ingenious instrument--Would like to play it.

[@apxpandy4965]

Wow - fantastic invention - and (of course) it's fantastic to watch you play! Much appreciated, thanks!

[@AuCafeDeLaMarmotte]

Great ! I started watching for the strangeness of the keyboard, but I was caught by the playing. I love the boogie at the end.

[@amezcuaist]

Pawn to King Four in F#Minor .Love it .

[@edmusica4422]

No words. Such an idea, but used by a soul like yours, thing happend amazingly as you do. A man in the past said that the tonal system must have more that 50 notes beetween an octave, 'Arnold Schoenberg' just said, I don't know and don't have idea for what and when will be used, but it will take something in the future.

[@scrapmetal58]

Well, I am impressed! I did the standard Wikipedia journey (Vivaldi - musical notations - harpsicord - piano - janko keyboard). The article for it confused me until now. Great job!

[@BanjoChick]

Thanks for this! Someone posted a picture of the Janko keyboard on Facebook, which led me to looking for a link of somewhere I could go to try one. Instead, I found something better for my purposes - someone who knows what he's doing playing one! Very cool.

[@victormt3510]

now i understand since the keys are intercaled the keyboard little more than half the width of the traditional one, very clever

[@miguelrotaeche8582]

Por fin lo entiendo. Gracias.

[@paralokekieras]

OH MY F****ED GOD!!!!! I'm studying piano and sometimes it's so hard, but, THAT it's IMPOSSIBLE!!! You are my idol now!!!

[@UnordEntertainment]

janko keyboards are actually way, way easier and faster to learn than a normal keyboard!! if you look carefully, each row is just the whole tone scale, and two adjacent rows are a semitone apart. that explains the white/black colouring pattern

[@skaffen]

The whole point of the Janko is to make music much easier. He explains everything in the video.

[@JamesLindauer]

Nice video that really shows what you can do with von Janko keyboard layout.

[@valvetrom]

I am totally impressed,for a moment I thought it would play in the just tuning, Recently I saw a video of an alternate Vibraphone with 3 diminshed scales mixed

[@estoniaman]

I really like your playing of "Kitten on the Keys". Nice and steady. Often with ragtime songs I find that they are like in some kind of rush.

[@sirsynth225]

Amazing!!! The Bach-piece (at 7:41) is incredible! NICE!!!

[@Annie_MCMLIV]

Okay - That just blew my mind, & my ears are smiling !!! WOW !!! Absolutely awesome !!! ... I need emoticons - my eyes are bugging out too.

[@LongDriveChamp03]

Ooh! I love the Zez Confrey at the beginning!

[@delphos1223]

Who made this? What is the future of this instrument? I have many questions!

[@JonasClark]

Google is your friend. There have been several different formats for piano keyboards; some used different tonalities entirely (large number of tones per octave) and some didn't. The Janko keyboard is the most common other format than standard, and yes, you can still buy them. They're nonetheless uncommon and were never adopted anywhere near widely anywhere. There are a few Janko variants.

[@delphos1223]

Jonas Clark Well thanks for the info!

[@matyaspiller3942]

Jankó Pál (Paul von Janko) Hungarian/Austro-Hungarian pianist and mathematician invented this format about 120 years ago. It was popular for about a decade, but it was not wildly used, so it faded out from the memory of the average people. Even from the Middle European people forgot it.

[@eliaspianomusic]

Subscribe to our newsletter. We will soon start a Kickstarter Campaign selling this instrument soon again: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bISmppproLqmeNU

[@AuCafeDeLaMarmotte]

So convincing ! Thank you for sharing ! Your solo at the end just rocks :D

[@c33r0k33]

I agree... It offers some unique and wonderful options in addition to the standard music playable on it.

[@sirsynth225]

Amazing!!! The Bach-piece is incredible! NICE!

[@djordjeblaga7815]

I could listen to this all day ;)

[@mu-soguy]

Scales don't bug me that much on a normal piano; just takes some more practice and open-mindedness to sort them out, plus this layout doesn't allow the standard black to white key slide technique that I use constantly. What I am kinda envious of though are the mega chords at 5:54.

[@skiptop1000]

Glad you like my big chords. I'm not sure what you mean by "black to white key slide technique", but if you mean sliding your finger from a black key onto a white key, you can do this on my keyboard from any note to any other note an half-step away. I am doing this several times in my improvisation starting ~ 10:40. Also, you can slide entire chords, as seen at 7:06.

[@docholiday1360]

Must've been cool to own! Thanks for this video, I hope to one day play a Janko keyboard

[@TheVermifuge]

Just checked out your website. Quite the song list man. Props to you!

[@bellowphone]

Very interesting, and great playing too. If you would care to see an odd variant of the Janko system, and my rendition of Tiger Rag, here's the link. Tiger Rag I had never heard of this keyboard system when I built the contraption, but Janko was referenced in the comments on my video, which is what brought me here. Cheers, Len.

[@robertmcdonald9249]

Brilliant !!! so cool and where instrument is going I love reference to the guitar ...... Gets the wheels turning lol

[@larryseyer]

Paul, you are an amazing player! I want one of those keyboards! I wonder if they're available in a MIDI controller? I have the AXiS 49, but having all of the keys are the same 'plane' is cumbersome. It makes so much more sense to have them in 'layers' as this piano does.

[@MuriMorello]

wow thats a new instrument at all for me today. great playin. loved the voicings over the black bird also ;)

[@ZeacorZeppelin]

Neat, so many possibilities with this piano, shame it never really caught.

[@moontan91]

mind blown.

[@jimmyhsp]

gotta love them big chords

[@freim93]

What an fascinating invention!! How cool!! Someone tweeted this video. First I've ever heard of it. :)

[@skiptop1000]

There's a new Janko Keyboard group on Facebook: facebook.com/groups/janko.piano

[@reesemarin]

+Paul Vandervoort Long ago I assisted you early on at Don Wehr's and wanted to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving, Paul. Best regards, Reese

[@skiptop1000]

+Reese Marin Hey Reese- Yeah, I remember. Thanks for the shout. I built one of my Janko keyboards for the Lawrence Audio you sold me. It's now owned by a guy on Long Island, New York. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWm4h2yNl6uZfM0 Hope you're doing well.

[@altair7001]

I think that the quickest way to the general adoption of this keyboard would be to create a 7-octave MIDI controller, so it can be used to play any modern electronic keyboard! Once people have tried it, things will snowball from there.

[@bisket2003]

BUILD AND SELL! Start a kickstarter!

[@kassemir]

Very cool, loved the jazz boogie woogie at the end :-)

[@MrTocoral]

I want this.

[@toothlesstoe]

I can see why Sorabji loved this keyboard configuration. It certainly would've made performing his Opus Clavicembalisticum a hell of a lot easier.

[@amezcuaist]

Bach would have loved this keyboard .

[@bathynomus.]

woah what's the name of the piece at 5:55

[@skiptop1000]

Just a little interlude I wrote a long time ago. It doesn't have a name.

[@yannickmcosta]

Paul Vandervoort What are those chords, absolute pleasure to the ears

[@skiptop1000]

@CircuitsAnd Strings2 I removed the conventional keyboard from the grand piano, and replaced it with the four row Janko.

[@robertr.hasspacher7731]

so glad I clicked this video. wow

[@EmdrGreg]

Go to 4:08 for the explanation.

[@spazkong]

Honestly. Who thinks this stuff up? Never seen these before, I'm amazed.

[@Fabio_Costa_Music]

Above all: your musical talent is stellar, took me elsewhere.

[@francescoiovino5529]

Non è paragonabile ad un vero pianoforte, la tecnica per suonarlo è diversa da questo strumento.

[@anatheistsopinion9974]

I was -4 years old when this was recorded :D

[@tuexss]

This makes so much sense!

[@Gimbergp]

Where has this piano been my whole life??

[@WranglerSlim]

I’m looking at this thinking it looks confusing, but then again, I’m still struggling to play the piano accordion in all keys. I’d love to try out a Janko keyboard sometime.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

You should consider getting a B- or C-system chromatic button accordion someday too-its layout was actually inspired by the Janko (changed things a bit to optimize for the fact that the buttons are played from the side); and has many of the same benefits of being able to play fast easier/easier to not miss notes, aswell as every key having the same fingering! There have been a few accordions with straight-up Janko layouts, but the changes that the B- and C-systems make are actually beneficial for how the buttons on an accordion are played, so the fact actual Janko accordions are rare isn't a big deal.

[@frenchiecocorico1]

It seems to me being very clear in my explanations. Since the German Paul von Janko designed this keyboard device in 1882 absolutely none special striking repertoire has been composed for it. First, because it increases the instrument price a lot due to multiply the keyboard number. Then, the advantage of easiness for virtuosic playing can't be counterbalanced by the change in the playing habits on a standard piano device which recovers the entire standard piano fingering .

[@imploud]

OMG this is amaazing! Thanx for posting it!

[@RayCGrote]

I was greatly intrigued by this video. I am a blind keyboard player and so I have a bit of trouble grasping the physical structure and layout of this keyboard, but from my rudimentary understanding of it, I think I could benefit from it if I practiced with it and became more familiar with it. I know there are different versions of this layout, so if I were to hypothetically try one, I'm not sure which would be best. I'd be leaning toward the 5-row version mentioned in the description and comments, since having more than two rows of keys does actually sound like something that could be potentially useful. However I have a question about this keyboard that is at the end of this comment, so bare with me. I'm mainly a jazz keyboard player with some classical training, and I try to be eclectic with my style and preferences. I've been playing the standard keyboard for 19 years since I was 4, and for some reason I have always felt slightly out of touch with it. The keys always feel too wide, both for small intervals like those in scales, or for larger ones such as 10ths, which are on the edge of my comfortable reach with a standard keyboard, however I still use them a lot in solo jazz work, and would even as a little kid fake them because I love wide chords so much. Also, certain passages are made harder by a standard keyboard... last semester at college I accompanied a friend of mine on one of Beethoven's piano/cello sonatas, and even with hours of practicing the fast 2-octave arpeggios, they still killed me almost every time, and I eventually flubbed my way through them sort of. More practice could've been beneficial I'm sure, and there are no doubt pianists who are much better than me who would assure me that a standard keyboard is more than enough, and I'm just not practicing effectively, etc etc. And perhaps those words do have some truth, depending on how they're taken and the person they're being spoken to. A lot of people would take my problems with the standard keyboard as excuses and whatnot. But I am reaching that point where I am getting somewhat frustrated with a lot of my physical limitations at the standard keyboard, which force me to compromise to get something close to what I want. I want to try something new that at least has potential to get me further in my inspiration if I put in the hours of mental adjustment, which I feel I would be more motivated to do. I would never give up the standard keyboard, I couldn't even if I wanted to anyway. I, like quite a few people, think it sounds counterintuitive, but I am willing to work with it, as I'm sure I will grow used to it. When I was learning piano I was rooted in key signatures and whatnot, so it would be interesting trying to work with a keyboard that doesn't favor any of that. No matter what, if I was hitting a brick wall of sorts I would easily be able to go back to what I know whenever I need. I also mess a lot with synthesizers and midi equipment. So now we finally get to my question. Because I play with keyboards a lot these days, the most convenient way for me to become acquainted with the Janco layout would be to have a midi controller that I could hook into a synthesizer. I was wondering if such a thing exists. Normally I use 61-key keyboards, as I really don't have room or a desire to mess with anything wider for my keyboard work. However since the Janco keyboard is substantially narrower than an 88-key regular layout, I wonder if an 88-note Janco would fit reasonably comfortably in a 61-key space. From my crude measurements, I think it may be just a bit wider, but I'm not certain. If it's not a drastic difference in width I would go for the 88-note Janco if a midi controller does exist. I know there is talk of such things, I read on wikipedia there are patents for Janco midi controllers, but not sure how available they are. Can anyone provide insight? Thanks for reading and have a great weekend!

[@skiptop1000]

Mr. Grote - Please send me an email so we can have a private conversation: [e-mail]

[@vaspers]

Cool. That keyboard provided the basis for the Chromatone CT-312 synthesizer. 88 keys is for slackers. Real keyboardists can play 312 keys.

[@jerryballard371]

Speaking as a player of several ‘isomorphic’ instruments (Stick, CBA accordion), one disadvantage is always left out. Its very easy to have everything sound the same in very key, unlike piano whose irregular layout encourages different patterns for different keys.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

Playing in another key doesn't sound very different because keys of the same kind _literally aren't very different._ A major scale is a major scale no matter if it's A major or G major. Being pushed into playing that scale in a certain way just because you changed what note you're starting on is actually a _disadvantage._ If you're playing certain keys in specific ways then that's actually a limitation of the person playing. A pianist should learn how to play anything they want without the key influencing it, which is harder on the standard piano. So, to reiterate, the disadvantage you're speaking of is actually _worse_ on the traditional piano. You're blaming sticking to the same patterns on the key feeling the same everywhere instead of pushing yourself to try different patterns out regardless of key. On the traditional piano you'll have to fight 12 different ways of being pushed into certain patterns, so it's actually harder to achieve full melodic and harmonic freedom from the patterns being pushed on you than on the Janko.

[@thomasandreassosna9093]

"Kitten on the Keys" seem to be much easier in an Janko-Keyboard, then on a normal one! The perfect Piano to play Rachmaninoff!

[@lkjadslkfjlaksj]

Is it possible to learn to play both this and a regular piano at the same time, or does learning one interfere with your learning of the other? It would be cool to have one of these at home for composition, while still being able to perform on a conventional piano. Also do you know if anyone makes a midi keyboard with this layout? Thanks!

[@skiptop1000]

Yes, you can learn and play both. I do all the time. To learn more about other people making Janko keyboards (or not), I recommend facebook.com/groups/janko.piano and groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/janko-chromatone

[@Hannlei98]

To people that are interested in this, check out Christopher Taylor’s piano. same concept but it makes more sense to someone that is very comfortable with and enjoys the normal piano

[@flemminghundevadmeng7726]

It was known to Franz Liszt, who was rather enthusiastic about it. It appeared - as far as I know in the middle of the 19th century. I think, that reason for its lack of succes is, that not many pianists would like to start almost over again and work with af complete new technique.

[@skiptop1000]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@flagship7388]

I'm just now learning how to play Piano and I had questions as to why the keyboard was designed the way it is. I would love to hear your take on that, or what you like (if anything) about the standard keyboard configuration.

[@NeoJinn]

music.stackexchange.com/questions/14954/origin-of-the-asymmetrical-keyboard-layout-of-a-piano

[@gareebee]

Didn't I see you featured in Keyboard magazine as a teenager on this thing? Always wondered why it didn't replace the keyboard as we know it.

[@abreoolhobrasil6560]

Preciso de um desse. Pode trazer para o Brasil?

[@skiptop1000]

Sorry, I don't have any to bring

[@harpsi8]

Love your playing your house must be full of the most wonderful musical sounds All the best to you I would love to see how this keyboard is connected to the strings and how it is cut from the blank of wood. I have make several harpsichord key boards myself.

[@WranglerSlim]

This might be a great keyboard layout for an accordion. Especially since the volume of any note is controlled by bellows pressure rather than key-striking speed.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

There are a few accordions that adopted this layout-both ones that have big square keys, which makes it feel like a Janko version of the Halberstadt (piano) keys on some accordions; and ones with small buttons, which is honestly a lot nicer since you can fit more notes in to one space and can reach farther. However, neither the Halberstadt or Janko layouts are completely ideal for the accordion because of the way the hand naturally wants to be positioned when playing notes from the side, and so the most common layouts for the chromatic button accordion are basically like altered versions of the Janko keyboard, and indeed were actually directly inspired by it! They're known as the B- and C-systems, and have many of the same benefits as the Janko; the interval fingerings are a bit different than the Janko, but you can still play in every key with the same fingering, reach larger spans, and have less chance of missing a note due to the spacing! There's also a G-system layout, but it's quite rare.

[@arthurwauters5919]

wonderfull

[@Fabio_Costa_Music]

I am stunned, what an unbelievable talent! And this Janko keyboard system! Absolutely remarkable. Do you play on it a lot? Does this feel like another intrument? Do both systems feel/work like different instruments? That is, do you have to be practiced on each as a different thing. I suppose it isn't quite possible to "tranfer" one practiced piece to the other system right away... Congratulations, and many thanks for uploading this.

[@berko9608]

What are the advantages of this keyboard? Possibility of transposition? Back in the 70s, I made a semitone switch (-4...+4) in my electronic organ (Weltmeister, made in East Germany) and played in a convenient key, including notes for wind instruments (in B...in Eb) In those years, I read a description of the Herald three-row keyboard, but I didn’t want to play on the Herald or Janko.

[@skiptop1000]

Did you watch the video? At least some of the advantages are explained after the first song.

[@berko9608]

@@skiptop1000 Thank you, I understand your idea. But learning to play the Janko keyboard requires forgetting all the usual motoric reflexes and mastering new ones. Like moving from a keyboard accordion to a buttons accordion. This may be acceptable for someone, but I'm more comfortable using a traditional keyboard. By the way, I almost do not use a mouse when working at a computer. I prefer hotkey combinations. Especially when working with Excel spreadsheets, where I "play chords" with both hands. Thanks for this demo.

[@skiptop1000]

@@berko9608 > learning to play the Janko keyboard requires forgetting all the usual motoric reflexes... You don't forget. If you speak English and learn Spanish, you don't forget English. I play both traditional and Janko keyboards.

[@berko9608]

​@@skiptop1000 Thank you. I played keyboards as an amateur for a very long time ago (60s/70s/early 80s). At the same time, he was engaged in the modernization of electronic musical instruments. In 1976 I met Lev Theremin, the legendary inventor and musician. The Janko keyboard idea might be interesting, but only theoretically for me. Best wishes!

[@ritschardt]

I am thinking of building an 1820 Graf with an alternative very narrow octave span keyboard for my concert pianist friend who has small hands so she can play all of Lizts works. A Janko Keyboard as well would be also an interesting option as well. To fit or retrofit a Janko keyboard would I need to modify the structure of the piano. I would still want to replace the standard keyboard if needed

[@orebelo]

Frist of all really appreciate those great answers and tips. Although the piano in this video has only 4 rows it seems very playable and it's much flat than others but still having cascading rows, very elegant! May I ask another one? This one has C#D#F first row, others like Reinert Janko piano, and Lippens keyboard have CDE first row as first row has more leverage advantage, what would be the best, C#D#F or CDE first row? thanks again

[@skiptop1000]

It really doesn't matter which row is in front. A standard would be nice. The Janko had C in the first row, so that might be a good standard to follow.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

From what I've seen, von Janko's original configuration of starting the first row on C is a bit more common across many different brands of Jankos than C♯, so it would make sense to use it as the standard. Since C is used as an anchor point in the music world already, It's probably slightly easier to get people to understand the layout that way too: When demonstrating the layout to someone, explaining the duplicated touchpoints should (for simplicity's sake) come _after_ explaining the general whole-tone arrangement of the notes; so when trying to get the observer to ignore everything but the bottom two rows for the time being, it's easier to grasp the first five notes of the C chromatic scale being laid out similarly to the traditional Halberstadt layout and the second portion flip-flopped, rather than the first portion being flip-flopped instead. Starting on C♯ at the bottom would feel more awkward and be more confusing, and having to use the second and third rows so that one can still explain starting on C would defeat the purpose of trying to simplify the introduction of the layout's mechanics aswell. Mixing in as much familiarity as you can when explaining the new is key. There was a similar issue on the standard 6-6 uniform keyboard: Putting C on a skinny/raised key allowed for more fingerings to stay the same as on the Halberstadt, but keeping C where it usually was allowed for someone to visually grasp how the notes are arranged quicker.

[@orebelo]

@@Persun_McPersonson I got the point of simplication for the newbies of the new layout but what I could see watching some videos is that Janko piano players uses the second instance of C row probably to take fingering advantage of the thumb over F key. Although a first row with CDE can facilitate for the newbies visualization, I think a C# one would put the first C row lower and as such, take more advantage of the pivot link length. As I don't have any experience with this layout It's just my perception and it would be just an irrelevant detail.

[@Persun_McPersonson]

​@@orebelo So having C♯ as the lower row on the Janko may also have a sort of playability advantage just like the more traditional version of the 6-6 layout does, albeit for completely different reasons... That's an interesting point. So, if this is true, then the community will need to judge whether the seemingly-miniscule fingering advantage gained by using a C♯-on-the-lower-row-based Janko (especially in comparison to the main advantages gained by a Janko layout in general) is worth slightly sacrificing the ease in getting others to understand how the Janko works.. I think I still lean a little more towards the C-based one, as I don't want such a small detail to potentially hamper adoption, especially when there's already several reasons the Janko looks intimidating which we can't alter because of them being too fundamental to the layout's function and existence. With a suppressed technology like this, any little bit of interest matters in my eyes.

[@orebelo]

@@Persun_McPersonson Yes I'd agree with you specially when each key has independent action. I was just wondering about those which are Piano adaptations or built with traditional piano mechanism using key lever, center pin (fulcrum) ,etc...