... or Why Playing Chopin Etudes too Early is a 𝐁𝐚𝐝 𝐈𝐝𝐞𝐚

[@mmilrl5768]

As a self taught pianist, these videos are so so soooo helpful so thank you!

[@kzelmer]

Oh my god, that Chopin like improvisation on Mozart's sonata... In the conservatoire (Spain) we were slowly introduced into romantic and late romantic repertoire on 4-5th year (4th if you were a better student) I remember one of the first medium ddificulty romantic pieces I was given by my teacher, Grieg's Notturne op 54 no 4. After mostly playing Beethoven and some easier pieces like Chopin prelude 4 or some Mendelhson Romanzas senza parole, my mind exploded with Grieg's Notturne My teacher told me almost the same you pointed in this video: welcome to a whole new piano world. Those first pieces were you have to learn that piano is not about finger articulation anymore but using your wrist, arm, shoulders... That is beautiful. is like rediscovering your instrument

[@classicallpvault8251]

When you say 'conservatoire' do you actually mean an institute of higher education or does this connotate a music school (I know it does in some places)? Because if you do mean higher music education then that's one of the most bizarre things I've ever read, but even if you mean a regular music school then it's still absolutely baffling given the large number of Romantic works written explicitly for beginners. Several major composers including Schumann and Tchaikovsky wrote albums full of piano music for young people. Some of the most common piano etude sets for beginners, like the ones written by Friedrich Burgmüller, are also from the Romantic era. Not letting students play these is incomprehensible. The Romantic era is the focal point of piano repertoire for almost everyone except those who are into historical performance practice, is by far the most popular part of the repertoire and therefore should be the focal point of music education. I think your teacher's idea is just wrong and not shared by the vast majority of piano professors. It sure as hell wasn't shared by my music school piano teacher, who taught me some of the easier works by Chopin (some preludes, nocturnes and mazurkas) early on and later moved to the Schubert impromptus, the D664 piano sonata and Moments Musicaux. Same with my sister (an adult starter)'s teacher who taught her the 2nd Chopin Nocturne in her 3rd year. Too bad that even some highly competent people, including teachers, develop these insane idiosyncratic ideas.

[@juanramonsilva1067]

As a classical pianist I agree with everything said on this video. I actually had to discover all those things the hard way, which basically means on my own, because I was badly instructed by teachers, sadly the quality of piano education here in my country is almost non existent and back then I didn’t knew better. With no means to get a better education, I more or less forced myself to be extremely observant and conscious about every little detail regarding technique. My experience and learning bringa me to basically agree with all the principles talked about here. It’s great to see that there are places you can get this quality education.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

🙏

[@JerryEboy69]

Be careful. The online classical community is ruthless. Be wise. Otherwise, the education can be quite great like in this awesome video

[@BjornHegstad]

As a pianist of 20 years who has had to retrain my technique from scratch due to injury, I can confirm everything you said to be true. Very good videa, the concepts are thoroughly explained, the production quality with three different cameras is incredible.

[@eliasabbas8450]

This was a very informative and relieving video for me. I haven't been playing Piano for a long time but jumped straight to Chopin's music after learning two Classical pieces and was always bothered by how I felt uncomfortable playing the Turkish march but fairly comfortable with more difficult Chopin pieces. People always describe composer difficulty in a linear fashion, as in if you're able to play Chopin, you should easily be able to play Mozart, but what I started to learn from my experience which I wasn't sure of but is now thankfully confirmed by this video, is that it all depends on whether you learned the right skills and techniques required for the piece and style of music which can differ greatly. Excellent video. Thank you!

[@ChillBuddies]

What a great channel! thanks and hi from Berlin!🙌

[@Seleuce]

Thank you for this! Very insightful. A little fun fact that may help beginners who are eager to play Chopin to focus on the classics first, is that Chopin himself grew up playing Bach and Mozart (and did so throughout his life). His music teacher for 6 years was a violinist who gave him Bach and Mozart to play. However, being a prodigy, Frederic soon surpassed the skills of his teacher, played his first public concert at the age of 8. By the age of 12 he was a ready-made concert pianist, 80% self-taught, who had developed his very own unique playing technique and was sent to the conservatory leader of Warsaw, J. Elsner, to study composition (not piano). A lot of Chopins own technique is in modern playing, like playing the thumb unrestricted on black keys, crossing longer fingers over shorter ones, finger sliding, playing 2 keys simultaniously with one finger, etc. His Etudes teach all this. But it started with the Classics. As the most expensive piano teacher of Paris, he insisted that his students play Bach and Mozart, Moscheles, Hummel and some Beethoven before playing his music.

[@brianbuch1]

Love your videos. Thank you. Sometime in the future, we should live so long, the blanking out of part of that Goya painting 1:30 will be used to characterize our era's aesthetics.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Absolutely!! But I really don’t want to give a bad experience to extra sensitive people. My mom wouldn’t sleep at night if would come across this suddenly😅

[@voskresenie-]

I showed that painting to a girl once while lying in bed with her. I was telling her that I'd seen it in el prado and it had a plaque providing an interpretation of the painting, that the look on Saturn's face isn't anger or hatred, it's fear. It didn't occur to me then that it might be a bad idea. It occurs to me now.

[@ericastier1646]

I could see the trauma you went through long ago when that teacher drilled that Haydn sonata with excessive insistence. I went through the same with one teacher and a Chopin (easy) prelude. To this day i hate that prelude because i associate it with that teacher despotic zeal.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Well I am rather grateful to my then-teacher. It was a necessary struggle. I am just happy there are so many other sonatas🤣

[@ericastier1646]

@@DenZhdanovPianist Okay, but you're clearly traumatized by that sonata learning experience, it showed in your body language.

[@ElevenThingsToDo]

Actually it’s my favourite Haydn sonata😅 Horowitz played it amazing

[@11kwright]

@@ElevenThingsToDo Some traumas contribute to one’s greatest achievement. With anything to achieve a masterful standard one must undergo a certain amount of trauma because the level demands such commitment. I’m sure Bruce Lee didn’t achieve his level of commitment with some trauma and pain. That’s the discipline achieving a certain level of mastery in life to become one of the elite!

[@chwu04-ne2df]

Yup that sonata taken as a whole was definitely harder for me than Chopin ballades 1 and 3. Same for Beethoven sonatas like op. 2/3, op. 7, op. 27/1, op. 31/1, and op. 31/3 as well as a couple Mozart sonatas. Maybe even op. 2/2 and op. 22. And this is very much in line with what my childhood teacher, who has taught ballade 1 to many students in the past (as well as 2 and 3 a few times), thinks as well. They demand a level of technical perfection that most Chopin simply doesn't require. People always say "But what about the ballade 1 coda it's killer!" but like first off it's only 3 pages long, secondly it's still not that hard compared to many other pieces in the standard repertoire or at least certainly very easy compared to any of 10/1 10/2 or 25/6 or the prokofiev 8th sonata coda or the schumann fantaisie 2nd movement coda, and for me trying to perfect the many pages of runs throughout the sonata is simply harder than just having to worry about the ballade 1 coda.

[@maksimivanov5417]

This is very well explained! I was *not* wondering why my piano teacher doesn't let me do Chopin in my 1st year of learning, but now I know very well why exactly :) And it helps me find extra motivation for dealing with Baroque music and classical-style etudes.

[@Emmanuel-p4p4l]

I owe so much to you and this channel… you made me discover the works of Tobias Matthay , relaxation studies, and since I had nothing to lose and my technique was already down and ruined, I gave it a shot…I ended up reading all of matthays books and it changed my whole life. Now I’m pretty sure I will reach the highest pieces in the repertoire within a few years , please keep making videos we are here to support you

[@tamed4171]

The chopin reimagining of the mozart sonata was absolutely amazing, blew my mind!

[@kaya2357]

Very insightful. When I was a kid, my teacher assigned me a lot of Bach, Czerny, and Clementi, and it took me several years before I learned Chopin (I think a waltz). I think there is an advantage of learning as a kid vs learning as an adult. Adults have this goal of wanting to play Chopin and more advanced pieces, so they become impatient before developing their strength and technique, whereas kids don't really have a goal in mind. They just practice according to their teacher's guidance, who assign them a larger dose of classical and baroque pieces. It's not that classical music is easier or more boring than romantic (in fact, your Haydn story shows it can be painfully difficult), but in my experience, the motivation of many adult learners is to play Chopin, and they don't develop that hand stability and balance that classical pieces train.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

I am glad we share an opinion! Great points

[@sylvestrelauriotprevost]

Denis you are a very good teacher ! please go on your videos.

[@sungvin]

All of the tips are very mind-opening, really recommend for watching!

[@wayanmitha6165]

love your content!

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

I appreciate that!

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

All aspects of your video are revealing, understanding historical aspects is very helpful, you give us a lot of detail to support your talk. You the most impressive combo for both playing and teaching. We are most fortunate to avail ourselves of your experience and very helpful demos. Thank you from the depth of our souls. You are a treasure.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Thank you for support, I am very happy to have such a great community aboard!

[@jake-z2i]

amazing editing and playing too, just discovered this channel and I'm already a fan

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Welcome aboard!😊

[@mattiapaterna]

Thank you for this video. The ideas around spatial perception and different techniques for different styles are often overlooked during a course of studies and are so important for being truly effective! I remember being told e.g. that romantic music is just played with more emphasis-i.e. more weight and use of rubato. I feel like it is only now, 10+ years after dropping out, that I can get to the piano and experience mindfulness and body-mind connection.

[@profsjp]

Informative - and inspiring - as always!

[@tavapaschos3136]

Your videos are so helpful. This was an interesting and useful one.

[@Goitzsche]

Great job you do with your videos. I've watched a series of your technical videos since a few months - subjects like avoid tension, moving your wrist, the pinky! (mine has changed) and rotation, some concepts were new for me - and the result of practicing every day partially weird self-made exercises is that I developped a strong 4th left finger now without bending in the end junction, with a nice curve and a better feeling, and my hands now form the natural posture in relation to the knockles within this short time. Yes, it strenghtend my hands and fingers and I got a safer feeling while playing even difficult passages, after more than 40 years of playing (with years of interruptions, only as a hobby). I play 5 to 6 times a week one or more hours, before work every morning 15 to 20 minutes only technique inspired by your recommendations. Best lessons ever with helpful video material and explanations. BIG THANK YOU !

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Thrilled to hear that! Great job!!!

[@RaptorT1V]

О, это видео как раз про меня! Я как будто бы нахожусь на концерте, в толпе зрителей, смотрящих это видео; и внезапно прожектор прямиком с небес светит именно на меня, как бы восклицая: _"А вот и яркий пример этого видео!"_ Я со всем согласен, что в этом видео говорилось. Но мне просто было скучно играть *классику.* А теперь скучно играть даже *романтиков* (хотя Шопен был первым моим самым любимым композитором, благодаря которому я начал слушать классическую музыку и пытаться играть её): я полностью погрузился в *джаз* =D Моя мечта теперь - это сыграть что-нибудь из *Николая Капустина*

[@Goitzsche]

Danke!

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Thank you kindly!🫶

[@JerryEboy69]

2:34 I cannot agree more. A literal gift from God. Then, the explanation of the evolution from constricted to "open" hand position and movement is absolutely true in every place. That's what I thought before I even clicked. 3:10 just brought it further the other thing I had thought of. I feel the pivot everywhere lmao! Very informative. Awesome job

[@rodrigogalliano4609]

Very, very good. Thank you

[@Tautropfenoase]

Fantastic. Thank you so, so much❤

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

You are so welcome!

[@chukwumaonyibor4644]

Beautiful playing and technique. Please can you explain (perhaps in a video) how we can keep the left hand volume low like that and letting the melody sing above it. Also, is the particular instrument one practices this on a factor? Thank you.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Great suggestion! No, it’s more about technique, not instrument. Although the better your piano, as easier you can achieve this

[@ericastier1646]

Very interesting and entertaining video as usual, Denis. On that idea, I read somewhere that the young Liszt started learning the piano by playing (very badly) as much music as possible and went through tons of music books before he even had a stable technique which is the opposite of what any teacher would advise. Then later he had a rigorous teacher (czerny) that taught him discipline and he recast his technique to play cleanly. That story always made me dubious as it's harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn the right way the first time. Since he is considered the best pianist who ever lived (at least for his century) I thought there might be something interesting to learn from that approach. For one thing because of it he became such a proficient sight reader he could even sight read concerti.

[@juanramonsilva1067]

I’m no Franz Liszt, but that’s basically the story of my piano journey. Except I had no exceptional teacher such as Czerny and I had to find the good technique by myself after I decided to seriously commit to piano. I definitely don’t recommend that approach because it’s very frustrating. The best way always is to start with a good teacher from the beggining.

[@ericastier1646]

@@juanramonsilva1067 Yes your experience is exactly what i would expect from that approach. But maybe the infant Liszt's musical boulimia approach, devouring constantly new music everyday forms a special kind of free spirited pianist like Liszt that later had skills others did not have such as composing transcendent virtuoso pieces. It's only a supposition. Whereas the diciplined rigorous teacher only produce competition winners and performers who lack the free thinking for composition and developping their own musical vocabulary. If for a second we take the analogy of literature and language. Most writers grew up as avid readers and developped their own language vocabulary from copious reading. They were not people who read a book over and over until they understood the intonation and meaning of every sentence in the book the way we train classical pianist to be entirely at the service of the composer ignoring to develop their own language.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

It’s the duty of a teacher to develop both sustainable technique, creativity, and other essential skills. However, in modern professional education, there is often not enough time to focus on transposition, harmony, and improvisation exercises within a piano lesson, since most students play multiple pieces that need to be covered within one to two hours a week. At best, I can explain harmony, chord progressions, and principles of expressiveness by using the pieces that are currently being studied, stimulating students with extra-musical associations, and asking them to transpose certain elements to other keys or improvise an alternative continuation to a phrase. Fortunately, in a professional institution, piano students usually have a set of other compulsory disciplines such as analysis, theory, sight-reading, collaborative piano, ear training, and improvisation/composition. This allows a piano professor to concentrate on stylistic and technical aspects.

[@ericastier1646]

@@DenZhdanovPianist master Denis (allow me this honorific prefix) your pedagogic skills are unsurpassed. Lucky are your young students that discover piano under your guidance. In my view you are doing everything right. I think it's the student's quest and responsibility to develop those elements of a personal musical vocabulary that every famous and great composers developed for themselves. I am myself the product of a professional institution as you mentioned where i received individual piano lessons from my piano professor, had courses for music theory, harmony, ear training, sight reading, sight singing, collaborative piano (i accompanied a voice student at the piano, also sang in a choir), composition and had piano jury every semester and weekly piano studio class, music history, etc.. (but i never got to the counterpoint class). You obviously went through the same curriculum. All this education for the piano student toward becoming a well rounded musician. But In my opinion it takes a lot more personal work on all these disciplines to be able to compose works that are worth performing at the piano. Liszt obviously did this. A course work cannot produce a composer, it has to be the result of a long personal study and personal interaction with music. One has to develop one's own musical language and vocabulary. I think that Liszt absorbed the music of others from a young age. He sifted through piles of music score before he even had a polished formed technique (according to his own words). I also read that several time in the course of his life he thought he had to reinvent his technique. Your point that the classical repertoire is important to form a solid piano technique ( Ex: strong nail joints) is true. When Liszt was young though, there was no romantic music. all the printed music was classical and the pre romantic composers like Hummel, Moscheles, Johann Baptist Crammer (who is credited for giving Beethoven's fifth concerto the name "the emperor"), were still using a solid classical technique with new elements that the romantics took much further. All this to say that young student should be allowed to sight read as many classical work as they want, but no romantic piece. Even Beethoven was considered straying away from proper classical technique. Hummel's teacher tried to dissuade him from studying Beethoven's music and focus on Bach, Mozart and Clementi.

[@plaguedoc7727]

Half of those music stories are exaggerated. The vast majority of them were fake and made up to build hype around the musicians for marketing.

[@dunkleosteus430]

Hey, this is the first video of yours that I've watched and I liked it. I've recently been concerned about my technique. I'm just not very accurate or well timed. I'm not good at scales either. I think this is because I haven't practiced many things like Hanon or Czerny, and tend to play romantic music. I'm learning Chopin's op. 10 no. 1 after 3 or 4 years of playing, at 2/3 speed is what I'm going for. I don't find it too difficult, and I have big hands. I think that the reason that I haven't done exercises is because I find them boring. I guess what I'm trying to say is, are there any nice-sounding pieces that will contribute greatly to my technique in the way you outlined in the video?

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

"Nice-sounding pieces" is subjective. Personally, I find beauty even in simpler works by Czerny, Bertini, Lemoine, and Moszkowski, particularly their études. You can check out my recordings of Burgmüller's Études Op. 100, or some from Op. 109, as well as Czerny's Op. 299. These pieces not only sound pleasing but also demand attention to interpretation while being designed to develop specific technical skills.

[@greatmusicchannel8549]

Denis could you make one video how to plan and practice Op 10 & Op 25 complete etudes by Chopin? I have learned Op 10 full and work to make and it would be useful your advice how to plan and make all of them.

[@MarcPlaysPiano]

10:17 I love your playing of this Haydn sonata. 👏👏👏 Thanks for the video!

[@richardedmond7107]

Very helpful video many thanks

[@edmurray57]

Thanks!

[@l.w.paradis2108]

This was *_brilliant._*

[@annecheng7761]

Good advice. Can you talk about use of the pedals in romantic repertoire? I know it is a huge subject but some basic principles and guidelines would be useful.

[@pablobear4241]

I've learned two Bach fugues (i've also sightread lots of WTC and all inventions but never prefected an invention fully only 90% of the way), almost 10 studies from Czerny 299 (played more than that though, but only perfected like 3-5), 2 chopin waltzes and some other easy works by him, and working on my first sonata k545 which I can play quite well. Is it too early to learn a Chopin etude still? The one I've practiced the most is hands separately the RH of 25 no6, I can play it quite fast and very even broken and not that fast and evenlyin chords. I think it would be cool to learn 10 5, 25 1, 25 5, 10 3. I The hardest thing is reading them, so I think maybe keep doing sonatas and bach for a bit longer but I feel like I can do it now. Reading one like 25 2 is really not a struggle, but, I'm not a big fan of that one.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

I would suggest playing a set of Mendelssohn Songs without words (pick the fast ones). They will help you develop relevant technique, especially with a good instruction if you can get it.

[@pablobear4241]

@@DenZhdanovPianist Okay I will learn the spinning song, I really love that one.

[@minghaolu2505]

Hi Dennis, any interest creating a course on some of Cramer's etudes? They seem like a nice bridge between Czerny and Chopin.

[@jowr2000]

Don’t know why the Cramer Etudes seem to be so little talked about. I think they’re great. Some pianists are even unfamiliar with them. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Thanks, great suggestion!

[@piano758]

Vielen Dank für die wunderbare Musikauswahl, z. B. Burgmüller. Im Moment spiele ich wirklich lieber etwas leichteres. Die Chopinstücke sind für mich viel zu schwer. Do you speak German? Have a nice day

[@Danchy082]

One of the main reason the technique become so different is the development of the instrument itself. The first pianos had a smaller keys with shallow action, much like the harpsichord. The pedals were used more sparsely, some of them were actually positioned bellow the keyboard to be activated by your knees. The technique was more harpsichord like, and with modern technique you would either break them or produce very harsh sound. As the instruments got bigger adm robuster the techniques evolved as well. But we should not forget that even 19 centuries pianos had a much lighter action than today Steinway. So playing Chopin in 19th Century was arguably a bit easier than today. As a women, I really struggled with some of the pianos I played, and noticed improvement in my strength and the ease of playing after going to the gym 😅

[@jonasmutter457]

Nice video! Just got accepted at the best music uni in vienna for piano! Really looking forward to that Followed you :)

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Best of luck!

[@samrogers9515]

Very good video. Thank you.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Thank you too!

[@RamadonPiano]

I started playing seriously about 7 months ago because I fell in love with the Liszt Liebestraume No. 3. I’ve practiced it to the extent where I can actually play it decently. A lot of the technique comes to me naturally. I think it’s really depends on each student. This new perspective makes me want to go back and learn pieces from Baroque and Classical Composers. My teacher wants me to bring Chopin etudes next week. Unfortunately, she thinks I’m very talented, but really my sight reading is egregious. Even though I can learn romantic pieces the speed at which I can learn and perform them is not within the time span of expectation. 😅

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

It’s great that you have a teacher who considers you to be talented, at least it means she will invest in you some real effort. Regarding teaching strategies, there is no agreement on what’s best. Each teacher follows their own approach, furthermore adjusting it for every particular student. Even if I am “right” in my views, it doesn’t necessary mean that the other teachers are “wrong” by disagreeing with me.

[@aaronisaacarias62992]

Im learing baroque first because i love how there are many simple pieces and since Harpsichord didn't really have dynamics, well, one less thing to worry about. So now that ive seen your video now im glad i started mostly in baroque! Not saying i dont learn anything else. I love zelda music so im trying to learn as many zelda ost's. Thank you i am subscribed!

[@Danchy082]

This is a common misconception about the harpsichord and the baroque music. Yes it did not have dynamics in a piano sense, but the dynamics were achieved with other means, clever agogic, phrasing, touch, different register, etc…Playing baroque music is actually more difficult for a knowledgable performer, because much of the things were left from score, unlike the precisely written romantic peaces. For example, did you know that you were never expected to play the repetitions the same as the first time? You were expected to improvise on them, add embellishments, etc…Do not underestimate Baroque music 😉

[@aaronisaacarias62992]

@Danchy082 no one is underestimating baroque. I am merely saying that the teacher in the video is right. I'm just glad that, as a beginner/intermediate keyboard player myself, I am on the right path. It's strange, I noticed that every time I had a teacher, the things the teacher was preparing to teach me, I was always on sync with my teacher and ahead of time I was always realizing said subjects my teacher was planning on showing me. Weird thing is this guy is not my teacher and yet I'm doing what he says in my stage of learning on my own. I assume this means I'm pretty natural at music and am a good student. I just wish I was a little brighter and less lazy, but hey this life also makes one stress a lot no? I mean this pianist is from Ukraine so I'm sure he knows what I mean. War is definitely on the horizon for all of us. This doesn't encourage me a master procrastinator to begin with and full of worry for me and my family. Sorry I digress but at the end of the day these things do affect practice and I'm not a very strong person.

[@tcborrachit0633]

My teacher also made me work in a haydn sonata (no 50 in d major) and its been almost 2 years since we started and he still asks me sometime to play it. Thanks to this I have been able to play Chopin revolutionary's etude and now im currently learning his 3rd ballade. I feel like having learnt this sonata and the etude is essential to achieve any other BIG work

[@brendamengeling4653]

Thanks! I’ve been using your beginner/early intermediate course, especially the opus 100 Burgmuller. Can you recommend a Haydn or Mozart piece or movement that builds from that? I love passage work but I need ornaments and double note practice. It’s so hard for me to tell how difficult a piece is just looking at the music. I don’t understand why.

[@Eeturautio]

Determining the difficutly of a piece comes naturally with experience, so don't worry.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

If you’re just after Burgmuller op.100, I would start from Kuhlau op.20 and any of Clementi op.36, that would be a more natural difficulty progression. Czerny op. 821, Burgmuller op. 109, Lemoine op.37, Concone op.30 have plenty of lovely studies suitable for your level for any technique types you want. All of them are available on imslp org

[@pianonime]

Would advise caution Beethoven for beginners. Certain pieces, absolutely, but some of techniques required in some of the Beethoven sonatas are absolutely brutal, even beyond Chopin's most difficult works. In a certain sense, Chopin's pieces seem to fit the hand better than some of Beethoven's more awkward piano techniques.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Sure, difficulty lvl is something to keep in mind whatever style you want to work on

[@SharmaYelverton]

How would you determine if your "classical technique" is sufficiently established to move onto romantic repertoire?

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

That’s usually a teacher’s call to decide. It doesn’t mean that one must avoid pieces written in the 19th century strictly, but there are pieces that may be awkward for early intermediate players. For example, when thinking which etude of Chopin to play first, it might be better to choose op.25 no.2 rather then op.25 no.1, since 25/2 features rather compact hand position. While 25/1 or 10/1 might be played after 25/12, when a student got used to a regular arpeggio width, before moving to extended dispositions and leaps. It all depends on situation and there is no one simple criteria or a “right/wrong” answer

[@ChamberPianist]

I like the use of the thumb in scales passages in the Romantic era. Compared to Classical . Thanks

[@jonathan130]

A self taught here, im currently working on ballade no 3, is that ok? I have learned op 10 no 5 before, although I cannot play it good, id say my technique is very comfortable and good especially for what i figured out myself. The ballade is going pretty good so far, I dont feel any pain in my hands or wrists. Should I continue?

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Especially since you feel okay with it, why’d you need a permission?🤞

[@thefritz123]

That sounds familiar to me.. . Mostly self taught, I started in my twenties and was drawn to complex music from childhood on. And it was exactly the desire to play pieces far beyond any beginners abilities that motivated me from the beginning until today (decades later.. :-) ). Wasting a lot of time by practising in inefficient ways in my early days, I now realize much better, -not the least, thanks to watching Denis Zhdanov's excellent videos-, what to look for to improve technical skills. I think recognizing what has to be developed and how to do it is more important than strictly following any order of musical styles. Of course it is sound advice Denis Z. gives in this video, but it might not fit everyone. Whatever style of classical music one is attracted to, there is certainly no way around countless hours of developing the basics. But it does not have to be a tedious process/activity, if one learned to recognize and to hear to what is important.

[@jonathan130]

@@thefritz123 my technique is proffecional level and good enough for improvisation. i jumped from a simple piece as op 9 no 2 straight to chopin etudes and its going fine. i fell much more comfortable on the piano, not so tense anymore and it feels fluid thanks to that jump

[@thefritz123]

@@jonathan130 To come that far all by yourself, you must have been driven by lots of enjoyment. Same here. I found Cortot's editions of Chopin's works with their preparatory exercises a very good starting point.

[@3213470]

Unteretung. Normally when we start we think everything is played the same. I wanna ask you, when you told me to follow up on the form I summited to you for one to one classes cause you’re fully covered. What did you mean? Just wait or send more forms?? I eBay you as a teacher cause feel like I need personalized guidance 👍👍

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Yes please send another message! I had many requests, and probably unfortunately missed yours.

[@3213470]

@@DenZhdanovPianist👍 ok I just sent another. I hope you get it

[@codeblaze3]

This video and all these comments are making me glad I’m learning a Haydn sonata right now…

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

👍👍👍

[@kalletorner4591]

I’ve been playing piano as a second instrument for 2 years. I’ve had a teacher for 1 year now who, among other things, say that it is too late practicing scales and simple technique excercises, and instead has given me a bunch of probably way too hard pieces like Rachmaninovs prelude in G minor, Chopin’s waltz in C# minor, Pavane pour une infante défunte (that was chosen by me though) and Chopin’s etude op 25 No.1. Now I’ve gotten a second teacher in the school that I go to (the other teacher isn’t a part of the school) and I realised I can’t even play a C major scale with both hands.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

😟 keep it up, you can master the necessary skills!

[@Aaalllyyysssaaaaa]

lol this is why I play crap that's too hard. if I physically can't play it without it hurting, that means my technique sucks, then I keep trying different things to figure out how to make it legitimately actually easy to play. It works really well with etudes where there is kind of a physical puzzle encoded into the way the music is written. Only problem with my method so far is that it takes 800 years to learn a piece, and it's hard to connect emotionally to the music if I persist for too long. But if I pick easier music, I can easily play it with bad technique and then I just get frustrated because it sounds ugly. So I try to pick like 2 measure "studies" that are impossible for me so there's a clear difference between success and failure and work on them like a project. Then I just jump around a lot from piece to piece. lmao I wish I had piano lessons it would be so much easier.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

A man has a sovereign right to do things mega hardcore way and struggle struggle struggle 💪🪖🔨💪🏋️‍♂️

[@Aaalllyyysssaaaaa]

@@DenZhdanovPianist lmao thanks for the new motto 🔥 💪 mega hardcore struggle! as is my BIRTHRIGHT as a broke noob!!

[@BjornHegstad]

This is why when I started rehabilitating my injury, I jumped straight onto Chopin's etudes. I did so deliberately for precisely the reasons you described. And it worked for me. But such work requires an immense amount of intelligence, creativity, discipline, restraint, patience and grit. I would not recommend anyone else to follow my footsteps.

[@Sloimer]

@@BjornHegstadlol ok

[@yvesjeaurond4937]

The refusal of teachers to teach transposition---beyond scales, arpeggios and simpler three note chords. To expand technique, transpose a Bach invention in all twelve keys. Chopin études are ok as transposition exercises, while keeping in mind Wim Winters' documented notion of using metronome values from Chopin Czerny and Beethoven as pendulum values--not as we do today. A last word on transposition: heed Art Tatum's maxim to "transpose the tune in every key and it will come to you." (If you aren't impressed with Tatum's pianism, he certainly made an impression on Vladimir Horowitz. :-) Another reason students are not ready for Chopin etudes. It is not just technique but also missing knowledge of cord forms. How to use variety for dominant seventh chords and half diminished chords and all manner of cords described much more effectively in jazz than in classical Harmony. Functional Harmony is important too. To solfege the degrees of the scale rather than perfect pitch the names of keys on the piano. One has to do both. And counting. Students are taught to count from the beat rather than to the beat and 1], and 2]. Leonard Bernstein was of that opinion as well indicating it's in between the Beats that a conductor is counting from. Rhythms shouldn't follow visual patterns. Musical typography in the 18th century was limited and inspired by mathematics. Music is aural, not visual. We don't count the pulse like a mathematician. Musicians cycle. Brian Brown, a student of Oscar Peterson's used to tell me that the pulse is like a great giant walking in the hallway who must lift his foot BEFORE he puts it down on the beat. This Counting towards the beat makes Baroque music and much of classical music come alive. Of course there are exceptions, but generally counting towards the beat is much more effective for articulating the pulse.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Very nice points. I agree, and actually much of that was covered in the previous videos.

[@dunkleosteus430]

Wim Winters is wrong. There are documents (concert schedules, letters, and the like) from Chopin's time period that list out the durations of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. pieces, and they line up with how we play them today. The idea that hundreds of thousands of people would all suddenly switch how they read metronomes is just ridiculous. There are people who lived through both time periods, like Liszt, and they were consistent with metronome markings, performing classical/early romantic pieces at the same tempo we play them at.

[@yvesjeaurond4937]

@@dunkleosteus430 : "Hundreds of thousands [of metronomes]"? Ahahaha. Not sure we're you are getting the data of how many metronomes were produced between 1817-1837... Wim Winters is only talking about a handful of composers using metronomes as one would a pendulum. It's a plausible thesis. It would only take a few teachers unaccustomed with using a sophisticated time measurement instrument, And unfamiliar with the history of time measurement using pendulums and humming tunes --- as Galileo did --- to spread a different method of use. A metronome, like any technical instrument, isn't idiot proof :-) It requires scientific training, some background on its design and purpose, and some sample problems and use cases where it can offer a solution. These are not part of musical training. Also, "obviousness", And the power of a first impression given to a student by an authority figure are exactly the kind of obstacle that Gaston Bachelard describes---he is still taught in epistemology, along with Kuhn's structure of Scientific revolutions. Wim Winters is trying to explain how a single beat propagated in the conservatories along with super virtuosity. Messiaen himself was always urging Yvonne Loriod to play faster. :-) support for slower tempos can be found in Glenn Gould's famous recording of the Brahms Concerto. Some editions of Bach's Inventions/Sinfonias list the metronome values for performances by many world-class artists that range from tempos that Wim Winters would approve, to those that he would qualify has warp speed :-). Right and wrong when it comes to aesthetic judgment is a slippery slope and often unwarranted. Northrop Frye has pointed this out with regard to literary criticism. It is very easy to adapt Frye's tolerance and understanding to musical aesthetics.

[@dunkleosteus430]

@@yvesjeaurond4937 🙄 no point in arguing with a double beater

[@jake-z2i]

lmao these edits are gold man

[@justinszatny3481]

What about the Kapustin concert etudes

[@RaptorT1V]

Оо, согласен! Нам нужны видео про произведения Николая Капустина!

[@RaptorT1V]

Если честно, этюды Капустина будут даже ЕЩЁ СЛОЖНЕЕ, чем этюды Шопена или Листа...

[@Follingground]

Привіт з України! Дякую за хороші відео

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

💛💙

[@DmitriBron1973]

I wonder if there is such a thing as a free trill. If I trill freely I somehow always end up on the wrong note. My father was a professional pianist and if I asked him how to trill then he said : 'well... you just trill'... (and somehow he always ended on the right note without any hickups... although he did not know excactly what he was doing).... I have been counting out my trills ever since.... and I think it makes sense, because in a free trill with a regular speed you might end up on the wrong note if your speed is a bit of. I am trying the Waldstein Rondo trill with the fast runs in the left hand and have not found a solution yet. the trill in 16ths is too slow, in 32s too fast and stiff... so its better to trill in triplets... but then you have 4 in the run against 3 in the trill and my brain stops working ;-)

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

It’s not about the speed of the trill, but about how quick is your reaction at the end of it. What might help, is to dissect the trill and the last three notes of it. Before finishing the trill together with the last note of the left hand - stop, and then play the three last notes making sure that the LH plays precisely with the last note. Do it many times with a gap, then without a gap, but accenting the last three notes so you’d concentrate on them better.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

It’s worth mentioning that in a free trill it doesn’t really matter how many notes per beat you have. You can play more or less notes at the end in order to finish on the note you want.

[@DmitriBron1973]

@@DenZhdanovPianist thank you for your advise. I will try your method.

[@FernandoSantana-m7k]

This Mozart Sonata KV 576 is also worth a course 😊

[@nehath123]

Although impressionistic Ravel's jeux d'eau gave me a lot of trouble. The middle part till the glissando has been very hard to keep the melody for me and the last page seconds arpeggios

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Yes, I wanted to cover this piece since a long time! I hope I’ll cut out enough time to do it in the observable future…

[@shenFen-jf2jk]

I think the best way to develop your techinque is to study bach's wtc. Chopin and romantic composers generally are very stylized.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

What do you mean by stylized?

[@shenFen-jf2jk]

Chopin's music is it's own genre it has many quirks that makes not as representative of keyboard music than Bach. You can basically apply every idea and techinque in the WTC to all western keyboard music.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

That’s absolutely correct, you can apply anything you find in Bach to other styles. But it won’t be enough. Bach might be not very helpful for developing the ultimate tenderness of Debussy or ultimate bravura and virtuosity of Liszt, or wide uncomfortable hand usage alla Paganini-Variations in Brahms, or overwhelming wild-nature pianism of Rachmaninoff, where the whole body has to be used for the most dramatic pieces. Bach is a necessary foundation for every classically trained pianist, but from the technical perspective it features a playing style which doesn’t have technique extensions emerged in the 19th century. Playing even all Bach might be not enough to develop the octave technique necessary for Liszt and Tchaikovsky, double-thirds for Chopin’s op.25/6, wide massive chords for Mussorgsky, crazy leaps for Schumann, and repeated notes for Scarlatti, Ravel’s Alborada and Scarbo. I still think that a gradual introduction to the variety of styles and pieces is essential in music education, and will result in a better outcome than any one-composer diet.

[@prokastinatore]

I belive with 58 years now that the key to the so called piano "technique" is to practice Bach as much as possible. Why is it so? I'm pretty sure that this is the way to develop absolutely undefended "hands" ( = different voices at the same time with melodies in both hands.....) . I never use the sustain pedal while rehearsing...Even not if I practice Chopin, Schumann or Ravel. That helps to play legato without "artificial" support and you can hear that. When I was 15 years old ( and that's "too" late), I rehearsed my first Chopin etude ( op. 25,/12) and my former teacher mentioned " Chopin etudes will las 'difficult' a whole human ife long" and I believe he was right. I don't think you realy learn "technique" with studying this concert etudes. It's more efficient to rehears the sonatas of Chopin because there it's not about "one" specific problem to perform....

[@disinformationworld9378]

I would say there is no such thing as “weak” finger joints. It’s like saying you have a “weak back” if you relax all of your muscles and collapse. Most pianists can fix this issue in a few seconds if the brain sends the signal to activate muscles in fingers.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Most piano beginners, especially adults, have troubles maintaining stability in the nail or knuckle joints. This video is not aimed at accomplished pianists.

[@classicallpvault8251]

Sorry but this isnt an apples to apples comparison. Mozart's piano sonatas were NOT written for the concert hall and don't require a virtuoso technique at all. The most difficult one has a Henle rating of 7 out of 9, narrowly putting it into 'advanced' difficulty, all others are ranked 6 or below, intermediate level. Only a few of the Chopin etudes are below an 8 and many are a 9. One should pit a virtuoso piano sonata from the Classical era, like Clementi's opus 33 piano sonata based on his C major concerto, vs. the Chopin etudes and suddenly it's not that big of a step up and many of the main technical difficulties of Romantic piano music (large chords and quick register changes requiring leaps over the keyboard) are present in there. Also, Mozart's composition style revolved around clarity and transparence and not on dense textures and that has the effect of mostly making it less difficult by default just from a purely mechanical perspective with less stuff going on at the same time. Mozart was a virtuoso pianist and an innovative composer but he sure as hell didn't push piano technique ahead like his contemporaries like Clementi and Dussek, and especially Beethoven later on, did in their most demanding works.

[@zugzwang2007]

Thought-provoking, but rather discouraging. Enough examples of the differences between historical classical finger technique and Chopin are given here to suggest that the route to Chopin through intensive study of the classical (and Baroque) repertoire will meet several dead ends. Not musically, but technically. There are a few pre-echoes of romantic technique in Beethoven (for instance the left hand expanded bass in the first movement of Op 81a) in the sense that these are pieces of the classical repertoire that cannot be played by adapting the classical way with an Alberti bass. It is far easier (and perhaps enlightening, though unhistorical) to come to difficult places like this by way of Chopin. If someone tries to play this piece of Beethoven in a historically classical way (such as you illustrate with the Mozart concerto) it will become a lumpy and painful disaster. But given some familiarity with expanded Chopin left hand accompanimental hand movements, the use of the central fingers and rotation, it is possible to unlock the Beethoven. (Of course, there is such a thing as it being too early for the Etudes, as opposed to many other pieces by Chopin, because Chopin's intended technical approach is in many cases not possible for young people with very small hands).

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

You say something very similar to what I said in the video, in the sense that we need a modern ergonomic approach to even classical piano pieces, with a clear understanding how to use the arm as a unit. My approach goes in-line with Chopin’s intuitive findings indeed. So I don’t see how this video is discouraging, and don’t see where exactly your position contradicts to mine. In a nutshell, this video solely an invitation to consider that some pieces, especially requiring extreme hand positions, might be not very suitable for beginner and early intermediate pianists.

[@polymath6475]

oh in moment not mament; oh in notice not natice; oh in baroque not barack; if you can play accurately you can speak accurately; то же самое было, когда мне пришлось учить русский язык!

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

I bet you really think you’re smart by drawing absurd parallels between piano playing and accent-free speaking, and “opening my eyes” thinking I am not aware I don’t sound as a native speaker yet.

[@polymath6475]

@@DenZhdanovPianist 啊唔過閩南語是我母語， yeah Hokkien my mother tongue, also it's not accent which everybody has even me, it's pronunciation, if I say ко́гда and not когда́, then all of Russia is calling me stupid, which I agree of course, but it is exactly the same as practising piano 💯 you're already excellent teacher!!! you'll become even better!!!

[@prokastinatore]

Slava Ukraine! Slava! May this great nation survive and maintain itself!

[@oferstolarov7937]

Islamy, please!

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Honestly, I have a bad feeling about it because my neighbor, whom I despise, practiced it so much. But as soon as I overcome it, I’ll consider it. 😅

[@3r7s]

​@@DenZhdanovPianist😅😅😅 omg, musician neighbors.. 🙈😅

[@aymenortashi8411]

Me who learned chopin etude op10 no4 as my 3 classical piece: 🤡

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Scary to ask what’s your the 4th one😱

[@LuisKolodin]

I believe playing Chopin or a Liszt too early is an EXCELLENT Idea, since everything that came BEFORE romantism was not written for piano forte, but fortepiano. It's another instrument, with another technique and another aesthetic. Everything before romantism is incomfortable for piano. It lacks full sound and is not written in pianistic way. It's much easier than Mozart or Bach. Only play Mozart or Bach if you like it as an specialization. It's completely unnecessary to make students struggle with these pieces that does nothing to help playing romantic repertoire, which is what was made to the modern piano. SAME for Czerny.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

Pianos of the 19th century were also quite different, and playing Chopin on a Pleyel (made before 1830!) or Liszt on a Graf might completely blow your mind regarding how different the modern approach to these composers is, compared to what those pianos would (and wouldn’t) allow you to do. I can’t disagree more with the point that earlier music is uncomfortable. If that’s the case, it’s due to a lack of good technique and poor instruction.

[@s.d.d.6063]

Suffice it to say that Chopjn himself was a huge ‘fan’ of Bach’s … Mozart or Bach unnecessary? Have you ever been studying piano? And oh, by the way, do you realize that the pianos Chopin and Liszt were playing were so much different than actual grand pianos right? Go troll elsewhere my friend.

[@LuisKolodin]

@@s.d.d.6063 not because Chopin enjoyed Bach that Bach is needed to play the piano. Sure Chopin couldn't enjoy romantic music because IT WAS NOT WRITTEN YET! So his favorite ones needed to be classical and baroque. Chopin wrote only ONE FUGUE for 2 simple voices, with romantic phrasing/articulation. Nothing related to Bach. Bach is a music in its own. It helps nothing more than playing more Bach. By the way, have you studied historically oriented performance? Because the way 99% of how pianists play Bach is simply wrong, not to say awful. They simply IGNORE all the treatises and never tried on harpsichord to test musical possibilities, articulation, good and bad notes, baroque rubato. Even FINGERING is completely different (scales avoiding 1st finger, 2-3 2-3 2-3-4). And yet these same pianists will claim you need to play what they don't know how to play in order to achieve a romantic technique. If you can't hear the enormous aesthetical difference from romanticism pianoforte music (ressonance, smooth attack, pedal and rubato creating harmonic colors, super legato) and classicism fortepiano pieces (dry, sharp attack, note per note clarity) it's not me who should study something here. Checkout Harnoncourt: "Until romanticism music was spoken. Then it became painted" A Mozart sonata can be more difficult to play than a Liszt Etude, simply because it is NOT pianistic. If you sit on a fortepiano It's quite easy. You don't need to make any effort for it to sound classical. Have you played 19th century Steinways? They were ALREADY as great as they are nowadays.

[@thomasbarnich2004]

Bach is definitely a must. It refines small finger technique, passage work, gives you precision, and is excellent for developing memory.

[@chwu04-ne2df]

"It's another instrument, with another technique and another aesthetic. Everything before romantism is incomfortable for piano. It lacks full sound and is not written in pianistic way." - No, the techniques carry over quite well. And where did you get the idea that everything before romantism is uncomfortable? Try Beethoven waldstein 1st movement; it's more comfortable to play than many of Chopin's pieces. If you think everything before the romantic period is uncomfortable it's just an issue with your technique. "It's completely unnecessary to make students struggle with these pieces that does nothing to help playing romantic repertoire, which is what was made to the modern piano." - Completely false. Baroque/Classical technique has lots to do with romantic repertoire. I've learned more technique from Bach pieces and Beethoven sonatas than from romantic repertoire. And the pianos during the early romantic era were not the same as modern pianos. "Chopin wrote only ONE FUGUE for 2 simple voices, with romantic phrasing/articulation. Nothing related to Bach. Bach is a music in its own. It helps nothing more than playing more Bach." - Where did you get the idea that anything that isn't a fugue has nothing to do with Bach? Chopin used extensive counterpoint in many of his later works; does counterpoint not have anything to do with Bach? You genuinely sound like Wim Winters from AuthenticSound.

[@Propp_]

excellent video and playing. but you're wrong.

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

That’s as good as useless... Articulate your point.

Are you, or, more importantly, is your wife aware that "teachers" populate the American millionaires as a top 5 profession. Enjoy your new German watch!

[@DenZhdanovPianist]

So how exactly this knowledge may be of use?🤔

[@Workingman-u7s]

The best songs for all beginners to learn are the Arnold Schoenberg piano pieces.