Designing New Permaculture Orchard in the Field (Part 2 of 4)

[@milkmaid4077]

To save space with the nitrogen fixing tree, I plant alfalfa and clover instead of the nitrogen fixing trees. They add to the perennial and shrub 'hedge'. they don't shade the fruit trees, make great mulch and can be fed on by our geese and pigs if we want to let them in the orchard area. If not, they are easily hand harvested and fed if needed.

[@gernotfrohlich6978]

lupines as well?

[@Permisiepl]

Pure common sense approach to the permaculture design, love it!

[@marshhen]

Sir you are as charming and funny as you are wise. I will never get enough of these videos. Getting me through winter cold.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

There’s a lot of videos for some binge watching.

[@honestlynate7922]

So awesome. I own a property in Mississippi and I planted almost 50 fruit trees on about 2 acres. Of course 5 years after all of my hard work with a bountiful harvest on its way, a new job opportunity took us 1200 mi away and now I'm in Massachusetts and I have to start all over again and I only have 1.28 acres. I'm going to do the best I can with what I have and I greatly appreciate all of your help over the years.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Good stuff, with your added experience I'm sure you will get there much quicker the second time around. Keep us posted on the progress.

[@2manyroberts]

Wow! How exciting! I absolutely love that you've invested in the Bigger picture, the relationship between the Insects AND the Birds and the Climate And the PLANTS! You're so inspirational! I've always dreamed of being out in the country on the land! Something I will be looking into! For the time being I've been in town but have been able to garden for hummers and butterflies! Great Channel learning SO Much! Thanks for Sharing your world!

[@mariannegibson1407]

Thank you, I really enjoyed seeing you lay out the thinking behind the planning, it is really useful and feels like I can take this and apply it :)

[@CliftonHicksbanjo]

It's gonna be beauuuuuuuuutiful!

[@ErinFisherMusic]

Loved the honk jokes Stefan!! I literally laughed out loud and almost spit out my drink! hahah you're awesome!

[@doggiefamily908]

I'm working on building my orchard now, so this video is very helpful. I am in zone 7/8 and have peaches, persimmons, pomegranates and loquats growing from seed. I'm planning to add apples and plums from seed as well. My problem is heavy clay, so growing from seeds helps me see which trees will grow, without investing lots of money, only to find out that that tree doesn't like the soil. I also have some nitrogen fixers coming this winter, to plant them between my existing trees. In the USA they use a persistent herbicide on grass fields. I would be afraid to use hay or straw or even manure on my field, unless I knew exactly that it wasn't sprayed. I'm sure you don't have that problem in Canada. I use cardboard and wood chips to block weeds. It is working for now.

[@kolapyellow7631]

I Love mango. I can use your idea for my garden! this is a great idea!

[@gtromble]

I'd like to know more about tree and row spacing. I thought I recalled that trees in the triples were 10 feet apart, 2 shrubs per tree, and 10 perennials on each side - one per foot. In this video you're using 21 foot spacing and 24 feet between rows. That's a big difference! Is it a difference in tree size - i.e. dwarf vs standard, or soil fertility, or just evolution in your understanding about what works best? Thanks much - love the channel - working on getting a situation to get started.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Hope you do start. Yes it’s due to tree size, seedling trees have no dwarfing rootstock.

[@gtromble]

@@StefanSobkowiak Thanks much for replying - that makes perfect sense. You're a fount of knowledge!

[@wildedibles819]

Love distracted by the geese beautiful.... I have to check out how you have planted... We wish to plant pears and we have planted the plums already in our hedge....we have apples... We have a couple nitrogen fixer ground covers I want to get a bush pea plant too... Veg gardens around the trees I just don't want the trees to shade out my veg garden....

[@StefanSobkowiak]

You’re off to a great start. Keep it up.

[@wildedibles819]

@@StefanSobkowiak yep no problem there we love to grow all sorts of things

[@wizdomdropzastrology3620]

Stefan I did not know you had a master degree in Landscape Architecture! I am currently in a program for just this and am much more of a permaculturist than most landscape architects. It's so interesting to find out you went to school for this! I resonate with your comment you made here about not needing to make everything so fancy and the value being more in the function. I'm finding the industry generally thinks we are crazy and overcomplicated... but when they listen they see our genius. go figure. When I talk to people about how permaculture and landscape architecture can seem like oil and water, they often encourage me to remember that the value of the degree is all in how you use it. Would you be so kind as to share any additional wisdom you might feel like sharing on this topic? Love your channel so much! Really wonderful content, thank you for your dedication.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Someone once wisely told me during graduate school when I had enough of it and was ready to quit he said “it’s not about what you think of it it’s really about what others will think of you once you have it”. It helped me get through it, get the degree and move on to something I wanted to do. In the end it was a good discipline to combine with permaculture. Get a good understanding of design, it can be applied to anything built or planned, which is so much of permaculture.

[@wizdomdropzastrology3620]

@@StefanSobkowiak I like your perspective, Stefan. That was the type of thinking that got me here in the first place... I guess it will carry me through then. Good to hear from your perspective having years of experience post degree, thank you! I'm actually already an active landscape designer with my business Earth Mama Design and lots of years experience with urban agriculture and environmental education, but I think you'd agree good designers (or teachers!) are always learning! The earth has so much to teach us and I'm optimistic after your comment that the continued learning I will experience in this program will serve my growth as a permaculture designer further. Peace Stefan and thanks again!

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Absolutely never stop learning.

[@tallcedars2310]

Mix up the spacing,, 12', 24' & 36' or whatever strikes your fancy. Did not know that starting from seed is hardier, good idea to plant them in your sandy soil. But will you have to fertilize or are you going with not mowing in between trees and crimping in the rows as enough to feed the seedlings for now? Love the birds in the background, sounds like there is a lot!

[@jesserahimzadeh4298]

You could space the plums a few feet less since they're smaller and that would create a bit more space at the end of the row for the 7th trio.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

True but I like a regular spacing. Easier to add than to remove afterwards.

[@oworkedandupaid]

Hello Stefan. Thanks for yet another fantastic video. It was helpful to see that you don't have to stick to the 'NAP' trio. I was under the mistaken impression that the A was a requirement. Are you going to follow your supermarket concept with these rows? This is one of the things that has challenged me the most in attempting to design a larger scale orchard for future planting (though taking the A out of the equation in some rows may assist considerably with the challenges of different harvest times).

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes harvest dates that match in the row are very practical when you have more than 2 rows.

[@aron8949]

How will you be protecting your seedlings from wildlife? And do you irrigate?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Abundance of seedlings first few years and metal mesh screening afterwards. Yes I irrigate but will only add 1-2 months after seedlings emerge.

[@drdaveyjones6216]

Hi Stefan, I love your channel - you are such an inspiration! I am planning on starting a small orchard. How much space down a row, and between rows, would you allocate if you were planting dwarf and semi dwarf varieties?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Depends on species, soil and your climate. Look up what is recommended for your region for the largest species you will use on a given rootstock and add to the spacing between trees and rows. You will never regret a little more space but will if too tight.

[@drdaveyjones6216]

@@StefanSobkowiak, thank you

[@MrMockingbird1313]

Hey Stefan, my partner (girl friend) and I are making an orchard 95 miles SE of St. Louis, Missouri. You videos are dynamite and changed my mind about many points. What I want to know is how tall are your young trees before you take them out of your nursery and put them into you orchard rows? Will you put small square poultry net or trunk guards on, until you reach a certain trunk diameter? Thanks for your help.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Put guards on at planting. Height not as much as age, 1 year best, 2 years max.

[@muhammadjawad1285]

What to plant on land that goats can't eat them? like walnut trees coz its difficult to save small trees from goats. Thanx

[@5203mhr]

Hello Stefan I as always love your videos content as they are wealth of information Please clarify the following statement as I have watched your this and other videos over and over again so that I can utilize my time to plan an orchard now for future projects I am located in northern bc zone 3 So as per this video your rows are running north south which means the trees and bushes and shrubs will get light during different times of the day ie as the sun rises in east and sets in west so when the sun is moving over the horizon it will provide sun on the east sides of the rows then the top and then west side of the rows as sun moves over in an arch form - is this done intentionally as I think that you want some plant to get light at certain times of the day, on the other hand why not run the rows east west so that all the plants get sun all day along as the sun follows the path of rows ?! In your design your in rows distance is 24 ft and in between plants/trees is 21 ft just using your example for calculation of area - to me there are 6 rows and considering about 10ft at the either side of first and last rows the width of this orchard is roughly about 164 ft and the trios are 7 ie 21 trees in a row which are about 21 ft apart so the length of each rows is about 440 ft plus the distance from the walk way to the first tree is let say 10 ft on either ends of rows makes the length of orchid about 460 ft There fire total area of orchard is 75440 sq ft ie about 1.73 acres ie total area required Now as far as putting 2 shrubs or bushes or vines under each fruit trees at about 3 feet- so my question is at what height would you prefer the first set of branches on each fruit trees (yes I know you prefer diagonal branches) because first branch will be a deciding factor about the height of shrubs you can put under each tree - your thoughts on this In another video you mentioned about 450 trees total including fruits and nitrogen fixing per acre and 900 shrubs (2/tree) and 16 perennials- what I am confused is how it’s possible to fit all the 450 trees in one acre ie in this present example we are looking at 126 trees total- did I heard it wrong or am I missing something important?! Last but not least I am queriou why you don’t plant any nectarines,cherries trees as there are some available for my zone 3 (we get cold as far as -35- 40c ! Thanks for your advice

[@StefanSobkowiak]

You pay attention. Nectarines and peaches freeze out around-28 -30c, I’ve tried the hardest ones but am in flat land. May work on sloped ground with excellent air drainage but not on my site. Tried 3 time and always froze the winter before they would produce. Yes 450 per acre but it’s too tight. I didn’t expect them to grow so well. Your spacing and number would be better and you would need semi dwarf even standard sized trees so would be too tight for standard. When in doubt space them out, you won’t regret having airy trees. NS seems better in our light limiting climate since the north side of a tree is the hardest to keep well branched. If you go EW half your tree is north side. Try both if you can and see the difference.

[@movementpoznan3558]

Hi. Thanks for your content. It is so helpful. I noticed that at first you planned nitrogen fixers in a diagonal line accordingly to south so they don't make too much shade . It made a lot of sense, but than you changed the drawing and it was planned differently and it got me confused :) Could you explain please?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Did I change? In the newest block the rows are spaced two times further apart so they will create less shade. Always be willing to experiment.

[@brianmozer3112]

Stefan-what about peaches mixed with apples in a trio? Any experience with that combo?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Go for it. Peaches don’t survive well here.

[@peterellis4262]

LOL. Stefan - your "planning on the fly" is built on, what 25 years when this video came out? of experience with this process. For the rest of us, even with the benefit of your shared experience, we probably benefit from a little more time and thought into our planning ;)

[@StefanSobkowiak]

You got it. Use the principle of trios, grocery row concept. Take some time to think about it and it will work. Look at the magic model video it’s the best method I’ve used to help plan in a logical and playful way.

[@gernotfrohlich6978]

Would you plant "walnuts" in your trio since some people around are convinced you should not plant walnut trees near fruit trees... and we used to read in our agricultural education literature to not plant an apple next to pear.. I have no idea why... so do you have a good result doin that - if so? I'd luv to plant as many different nut trees as well within my fruit tree orchard. thank you so much!

[@StefanSobkowiak]

No more walnut in trios, killed my apples within 70 once the walnuts were mature. See my video: these trees kill trees.

[@gernotfrohlich6978]

@@StefanSobkowiak perfect thank you, so I will get the nut trees a seperate space.

[@timuryusupov8184]

Is the pollination process going well in a polyculture garden? Do you plant specially pollinating varieties? For some varieties it is important.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

With a Polyculture the only problem of pollination is too much pollination, never not enough.

[@bhavens9149]

Question! I only have a little less than 830 sq m, or about 10,000 sf for my permaculture food forest, I am planning on using half for the orchard (with maybe a couple extra in the veggie garden side, which does require shade here) I was wondering can I use a Nitrogen fixing Shrub? between some of the trees, rather than tree, as a way to condense the space a bit? (actual space is 100 feet by 89.5 feet, pretty darn empty right now) currently cover cropping the trees I have with cow peas and red clover, I left space for N fixers, but having a hard time deciding what I want there. not to mention they seem harder to find than the fruit trees! I threw in a couple of bottle brush trees for some Hummingbirds that made a request, but figure some non fruiting shrub/trees will probably just reduce pests .

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes go for shrubs (caragana, Seaberry, buffalo berry, goumi).

[@bhavens9149]

@@StefanSobkowiak Thank YOU!

[@PhilUpOnLife]

Where can we find part 1?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Bale unrolling

[@ewarren1996]

I see you are in Canada and put your tallest trees to the north. If I am further south in say Alabama, am I correct tallest tree should be to the south?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Good question. I’m not sure. I would look at examples in your surroundings find some fruit trees North of tall trees and others south of tall trees. If you can’t find any North it may mean they don’t do well and vice versa. A little sleuthing is needed but will produce a lifetime of rewards.

[@shaneatkins6929]

I am inheriting my folk's retirement home since my dad's passed and mom can't handle living there. Is there an organization or something along those lines that helps plan organic/permaculture orchards? I went to an ag school so I talked to them and they seem to be focused on high intensity farming with traditional methods that seem to harm the land over time. Is it even possible to take care of an orchard over distance? I would have to come from out of state every month if need be. Is there a resource for people that want to live on a farm and will trade work. I am a city boy that grew a few pear trees and plums in my life but this has gotten overwhelming. I am in the US.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

There may be people in your area that would like to take on the challenge of managing an orchard in exchange for a percentage of the crop. You can find fruit growing groups or permaculture groups on Facebook for your region.

[@hotxingo]

Wish we have a Stefan Sobkowiak in India to guide us for setting up a Permaculture orchard in subtropic wet and dry monsoon climate. I love your videos.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Check out Pete Kanaris of Green Dreams Florida. A great KZbin channel for tropics and subtropics.

[@hotxingo]

Stefan, although India subtropical climate has no similarity with climate of your area, still your videos are more educative and I think it would help me a lot. Of course, I have to do more research to select the fruit tree species with nitrogen fixer tree that would suit better to this climate. Now I want to know more about the berries that I could grow in my farm.

[@flatsville1]

Stefan- Why a wire & pipe above the trees in 15 years? Whay are they used for in orcharding? Thanx

[@StefanSobkowiak]

For any spray or foliage fertilisation.

[@flatsville1]

@@StefanSobkowiak Thnx. OK. I have never seen that. I will search for a pic.

[@goofyroofy]

how about hazelnuts in the double shrub area??? have you thought about using the shrub layer to have the nitrogen fixers? would allow an extra big fruit tree^^

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes we have lots of space to try different combos.

[@Wisconsin_Gardener]

A tree every 21 feet, right? Do the nitrogen fixers get terminated every couple of years, or no?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Pruned not terminated

[@robertjanez7467]

many Pear and Plum cultivars needs cross pollination by another pear or plum. This is an issue when you plan your Trios no? since you are putting unrelated trees (nut or plum) around a pear tree

[@StefanSobkowiak]

No since we always plant at least two trios, so there is at least two different cultivars of each fruit species.

[@Stezosledec559]

If you have square land and aligned S to N, would you still prefer diagonal rows from SE to NW over N to S?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

No just use NS then.

[@mchopeck]

Another great video, but I am confused. How come you orient your rows along a north/south axis rather than an east/west axis? Would this not give more light to all the trees and help to minimize shading caused by trees of different heights? Currently planning to greatly increase the amount of trees I have planted.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

We have both and NS seems to give the most light below the trees, especially spring and fall when sun angle is lower.

[@annebeck2208]

I know you are designing a commercial orchard, but it just occurred to me that you would also be the perfect person to design a decorative permaculture orchard for a family's front yard. Would you use a dwarf decorative honey locust and weeping redbud? I wonder how to get a pretty, small, yet permaculture orchard that would pass HOA's...just thinking aloud..

[@StefanSobkowiak]

All fruit trees and shrubs also flower. For HOA just add more perennial flowers.

[@Malus_zozo]

Stefan , are you using classic rootstocks like "M9/M7 .." for your appletrees ? or just seedling rootstocks ? ( grafted varieties on those seedling rootstocks ? ) I bought your movie but didn't get this info :) . Thank you .

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Most all our apples on M26 some on M106.

[@Malus_zozo]

@@StefanSobkowiak ok thanks for the informations :) . So in mid height range .

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Mid height in a good soil, more dwarf in our soil.

[@titanart6225]

21 feet between each tree in the trio or 21 ft btw the trios of the 3 trees?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Between each tree in the row.

[@titanart6225]

@@StefanSobkowiak thank you sir. Do you plant any annual vegetables under your fruit trees? I know you mentioned double hedge of berries btw the trees as well as other perennial plants like garlic chives.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes vegetables for the first 3 years do well, while good sun.

[@kolapyellow7631]

is honeylocust an eddible plant?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

No but very useful.

[@lawerancemorrow8774]

hi, so is the first part titled bale unroller for mulch?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes

[@truehealthnow]

Hi Stephan ... do you use dwarfs or are all your trees standard ?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Most apples are on dwarf, plums on own roots and pear on p ussuriensis

[@truehealthnow]

@@StefanSobkowiak Thanks Stefan, love your videos.

[@titanart6225]

Are these full size trees or are these dwarf trees?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

A mix, it’s ok to have space. You’ll never regret you have to much space, you’ll always regret your trees are too close together.

[@donnabrown1518]

I live in an area where we could grow peaches. Are peaches good to combine with plums and cherries?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Yes they have similar size and water needs.

[@donnabrown1518]

@@StefanSobkowiak thanks!

[@dennypinar9482]

Is your trio spacing 21 ft per tree? Or 21ft per trio?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Per tree.

[@1rstjames]

So pick a spacing, like 21, and stick to that, ensuring trees don't grow too far beyond that, to prevent canopies overlapping?

[@larry_white]

Do I need to space nitrogen fixer/fruit combos at the same distance as fruit/fruit combos?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Need? Depends on the species chosen. Ideally look at it’s mature spread and give it that space unless you will prune it (best to release N)

[@LowHangingFruitForest]

Why did you decide not to use dwarf root stock?

[@creepershaunt]

Dave Wilson says to use regular root stock and prune the tree to the height you want. You are limiting yourself with dwarf stock unnecessarily.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Have lots of dwarf on the farm. Want to experiment with undisturbed roots.

[@brianmozer3112]

I am a little confused. You said the new orchard would be from seed. But I understand that if you grow apple from seed you don’t get a consistent new tree with character of parent tree. WHat exactly are you growing from seed?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

An apple tree that I don’t know how it will turn out. We’ll keep just one or two bottom branches and graft above it with another Apple that we know what and when it will produce. The low branches are to see how the seed turn out as an apple. You never know it may be a new honeycrisp.

[@07negative56]

Would it not be wise to periodically pass pigs through an orchard? I’m mulling over some ideals of a silvopasture. Or should I say, an orchard silvopasture.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Great idea just keep in mind pigs pass parasites that are transmissible to humans. Pigs could be used AFTER harvest but not a good choice before harvest. Better to use sheep. I’m not sure if parasites from pigs will survive till next year. Makes ground fruit unusable.

[@Sue-ec6un]

It’s like you’re reading my mind... cherry’s with plums, pears with apples... hm, water requirements equivalents. I can’t plant nut trees, not enough space, any other recommendations?

[@kirstenwhitworth8079]

What kind of ecoregion are you in? How much percipitation per year/water access? What's the temperature range? What kind of soil?

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Hazelnuts and Saskatoons. Saskatoons and bush cherries... lots of possibilities depending on what you can grow.

[@nicklastiwka2334]

Why are you using the hedges rather than a diverse planting of other perennials and annuals? is it just for the shading? I just assumed more diversity of plants was better. even if its a little more work controlling weeds.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

You're right but I should have clarified that a hedge for me is not a monoculture of one shrub. It's a mixed hedge of many shrub species. A hedge will save a lot of work trying to keep down other plants.

[@Scott-zb6eo]

So I see on your second plan(kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnm3gpyubrV5a7c) that your true North-South is along the N-Fixing trees. Since every second row is starting with N, I think you are on an equidistant planting, or hex centered grid, does that mean your rows are aligned 30 degrees from the NS line?

[@AbundantDesign]

Great Hat! #Soil4Climate #RegenAg

[@peterellis4262]

Throw some seaberry in that shrub hedge and you'll get more nitrogen fixation in there as well ;)

[@sylionered778]

Bonjour, Pourriez vous publier des vidéos en francais comme vous le faisiez au début. J'ai beau parler anglais, il n'est pas facile de comprendre tous les termes même avec les sous titres. Est ce que vous pourriez aussi nous en expliquer un peu plus sur les méthodes de culture du néo zélandais que vous avez rencontré dernièrement qui me paraissent très pertinentes au vu des variations climatiques importantes que nous vivons en France depuis peu. PS: est ce que vous avez déjà regardé les sous titres que youtube propose pour le Québécois, elles sont à mourir de rire. Bien à vous.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Oui sous titres ne sont pas encore à point.

[@lynxacres1293]

I think I’ve watched all of your English videos now - at least all the ones in the English playlist. I’m a little sad now :(. Also, you have 4 private and 1 deleted video in that playlist.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

Congrats on catching up. Now you’ll have to be content with one a week released Fridays at 11:45.

[@lynxacres1293]

Stefan Sobkowiak yup! And I’ve learned so much. I have names of nurseries and some variety names of different plants, and perennial plants to try my hand at planting. All sorts of things. And I will be getting the video and the virtual tour soon! In the new orchard, have you considered adding saskatoons? Or how do you choose which fruit and nut trees you will be growing?

[@tomasschn9858]

Your voice is the same as Jordan Peterson XD

[@davewygonowski984]

Those sound like snow geese.

[@StefanSobkowiak]

They are.

[@davewygonowski984]

@@StefanSobkowiak Any hunting going on in the area? Any place I could stay / hunt in that area? Thank you.

[@erwinbrubacker7488]

A little common sense, goes a lllooonnnggg way !