Destiny Gets Into Trans Debate w/ Doctor After Getting Called Out For Ducking

[@bobjones5825]

Trans people, despite making up 0.5% of the population, take up 90% of the discourse

[@ladyvanda]

True. They need to let go of their obsession at some point, it’s not like we’re having a shortage of other interesting topics. It takes so much self-control and discipline to not call them chasers.

[@schizophrenic_AI]

I’m wondering what the next statistically insignificant and exponentially over represented cultural war arc will be? I think ~1% of the population has paralysis of some kind so I kind of hope that will be next topic. Mostly so we can bring attention to the problem but also so that we can have 5 months of debates about whether it’s OK to joking use the phrase “stunlocked”.

[@depecher6s311]

@@schizophrenic_AI I’m calling the resurgence of left-handed hate

[@franklingoodwin]

Only because conservatives made them so. There was no discourse before conservatives became obsessed with them

[@widnyj5561]

@@schizophrenic_AI I guess pedo. It's explicitively mentioned by marx (parroted by current breadtubers) - in short, after socialistic revolution age of consent shall be lifted. It's already lingering in far left environments

[@bracero7628]

The whole trans issue has probably done more than anything else to destroy my faith in experts. Not all of them by any means, but the number of people walking around with letters after their name who have no concept of intellectual rigor whatsoever is fucking incredible.

[@wanded]

it's most of them for sure they only learn what is needed to get said letters, they don't go beyond or even catch up with new research meaning someone who became a doctor 30 years ago is missing most of the new medical information released in the last 30 years

[@nidhishshivashankar4885]

They didn’t get the letters by being rigorous they got the letters by being “right” relative to the group think of other academics

[@deistormmods]

It makes sense when universities are very liberal. It's not based on merit.

[@ryansilva1274]

no one cares that you dislike Experts. Experts matter, you don't.

[@1surflover]

@@ryansilva1274 Going to college doesnt make you an expert if you are still a slimey dumb person

[@johns1570]

I work overnights in a hospital, in fact, I'm here right now. My entire 10 and a half hour shift consists of finding and fixing mistakes made by the care teams (MD's, RN's, PA'S, MA'S, etc.) About a month ago, I had to explain to a Dr. a licensed, practicing physician, that urine comes out of a person's body at higher than room temperature, because our bodies sit around 96 degrees, and if the urine voided from the patient was 70 degrees, then they would have a much bigger problem on their hands than the improper collection of a urine sample. Multiple times a week I have to remind nurses that using a tube that has a sodium additive is not going to give them an accurate sodium result, because the tube itself already has sodium in it and they need to use a different tube to collect that test. Everyone is human, and everyone makes mistakes; but I can honestly tell you that a lot of the health care workers you depend on, lack common sense.

[@jeremias-serus]

How lovely to hear.

[@Thunderdumpe]

I trust doctors to know eldritch details about my pancreas, but not to remember which leg to amputate. Those guys are half mad from sleep deprivation and you can't even tell cause of the caffiene

[@whitb62]

So you’re what? A high school graduate with a tech job?

[@TeaNoSugar87]

What's your job title if you're not a Doctor or a nurse?

[@johns1570]

@@whitb62 An associates of science, and I don't work in the technical section. It's a hospital, the techs don't have time to spend 10 hours fixing mistakes, when they're running 1,000 samples an hour. I'm on the administrative side. My job is to keep fixes documented, so the RN that caused hyponatremia because she fucked up your sodium test is the only one in the line of fire when the pt. sues.

[@lowercasejackal]

The trans without dysphoria argument always feels like someone saying "I really want to eat but i'm not hungry." It feels like a natural precursor to the want to deal with it, whether people realize it or not.

[@vautry]

That is a really good way to put it

[@lancemagmer9701]

I eat when I'm bored

[@Duckman1616]

No, it's more like "I like ice cream but I'd rather a chocolate bar". If transitioning from one gender to the other becomes easy and accepted enough, there's no reason to believe people wouldn't choose to change it like they may choose to change their diet. You don't experience food dysphoria because you decided to cut red meat out of your diet.

[@KorakBrosepf]

It's a very simple argument. Trans people without dysphoria feel positive vibes when they transition, and don't associate their current body appendages as inherently bio sex.

[@yarpenzigrin1893]

@@KorakBrosepf In other words, they're degenerates and should not be tolerated. What they're doing is not by any means medically necessary so there's absolutely no moral justification.

[@hamedghandhari8714]

Pisco has the most schizo argument here. I literally have never seen someone having such schizo conversation

[@Sue_Me_Too]

That's just what the Government wants you to think!

[@midasderrek]

Pisco just always reinforces all my biases against lawyers lol

[@lumayne8829]

pausin at 11:29 here, the perfect argument for destiny against pisco here would be to ask "If someone lives their life in a wheelchair because they enjoy it more than walking, but they can walk perfectly fine, are they disabled?"

[@Amy8Amy8Amy]

Thought the same thing. Even further than that, to live in a wheelchair despite not needing it would likely fall under another illness that requires different treatment, anyway!

[@rileyriley5714]

So annoying when people who have no problem with the most absurd hypotheticals suddenly have a problem with them when it cooks their own argument

[@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je]

yeah Destiny needs to grow up

[@b23beatz]

his hypotheticals were dog shit

[@jeanesseintes3451]

If you pay attention you will realize he does stuff like that quite often, he is very good at framing his arguments in a way that is beneficial and getting people to hyperfocus on the information that is beneficial to his side. He is a very good debater and the truth is that multiple people can be right about some issues depending on their goals and there are often no solutions to a problem without flaws to them, though luckily for him the average person has glaring flaws in their political and philosophical thinking that you can use in a conversation to elevate yourself far above them and make yourself and your arguments look great to an audience.

[@thegreattsbob]

Its a bad hypothetical is the issue. It assumes dysphoria is not what we currently know it to be. The idea is that gender dysphoria is caused by gender expression being significantly different from internal ideas of gender. Someone androgynous would be causing thier own dysphoria if they were happy being androgenous and decided to become either a man or woman; similarly, if they wanted to be 99% man or woman but they were androgenous they would have dysphoria. So Destiny is correct here, a person who is androgenous but wants to be either a man or woman and has no dysphoria doesn't seem to be someone who can exist as we currently understand gender.

[@amazin7006]

@@jeanesseintes3451 Who is "he"? You used nothing but pronouns and not a single name when there are multiple people in this video. You didn't even use a single example which makes it even more meaningless. What a dumb vague comment.

[@runelt99]

I stole this from a reddit post but.. Pisco wants you to imagine two cis men who are married but for the sake of argument are also straight. Neither is trans.

[@Macheako]

do they blow each other?

[@Sue_Me_Too]

@@Macheako Nah, he said they're straight. Blowing dudes is pretty gay

[@paulaagam5071]

there would be a logical impossibility in the hypothetical. Like saying a married bachelor.

[@runelt99]

@@paulaagam5071 That's the joke. Also according to youtube there are 3 replies to my post, yet I can only see 1. What did you guys even write...

[@paulaagam5071]

@@runelt99 I mean if Piss Co said something like that you would easily be able to point out a contradiction.

[@CthulhuTheory]

We used to have a distinction between transvestites (people who dress as the opposite sex for kicks but don’t really see themselves as the opposite gender), purely performative drag, and transsexuals who see themselves as the opposite sex. Then there were the androgynous folks who are nebulous in appearance and presentation. Now we’ve decided transsexual is bad because people turned it into a derogatory term rather than a descriptive one, and the rest of the groupings have gone out. In the process we have these people trying to delineate between sex and gender while constantly conflating them at the same time and effectively trying to say anything that’s not “cis” is trans even tho there is a gigantic difference between each of those aforementioned groups. And this is all part of an attempt to normalize trans people? Which isn’t a bad thing but they’re so clumsy in this and inconsistent that they don’t even realize when they’re contradicting themselves, such as the argument that a straight man going thru surgery to give himself tits to masturbate to is trans. That’s not a helpful argument at all. It feeds into the narrative that trans people are just sexual deviants. I fucking hate this discourse.

[@joocebocks8610]

"Now we’ve decided transsexual is bad because people turned it into a derogatory term rather than a descriptive one, and the rest of the groupings have gone out. " Which is silly, because transsexual is still the proper medical term for a person that socially or medically transitions, as per the current DSM-5. Transgender is still medically defined as being simply a state of self identification and has nothing to do with transitioning. People literally just don't read the documentation that they're debating.

[@CthulhuTheory]

@@joocebocks8610 I think people get hung up on transsexual because of the stigmatization of the word and the uncoupling of gender from sex (which have pretty much always been synonymous - which I suspect is why people who advocate trans rights still constantly conflate the two despite claiming they're different) and because technically you can't change your sex, it's just sex characteristics. The other problem is that other terms like "gender reassignment/confirmation surgery" are also inaccurate because you're not reassigning a gender, and because they claim gender isn't tied directly to your sex characteristics it's inaccurate to say it's confirmational surgery either. Some day folks will figure it out but part of doing so will require them to listen to people who point out how ridiculous and inconsistent they're being without screeching about transphobia.

[@capoman1]

I think the whole phenomenon is way more ideological than it ever was. It is now very EASY to suggest that someone might be transexual, and some people even ARE PROUD to feel like their kid has this awesome trait. I feel it is getting trendy to go trans. There seems to be a societal movement to go this route.

[@joocebocks8610]

@@capoman1 "I think the whole phenomenon is way more ideological than it ever was." That's definitely the problem. Few people had a problem when we simply acknowledged the current DSM-V designation that it was a mental disorder that needed special accommodations. Now people are literally being awarded medals and sponsorships for saying they are trans, as if that alone makes someone praiseworthy and to be held on a pedestal and celebrated. We are being told that the distinctions between men and women don't actually exist. People are now being taught as if it's some brave new world of endless possibilities that everyone should explore, rather than treating it as what it is, which is a deleterious medical condition.

[@capoman1]

@@joocebocks8610 Couldn't agree more

[@IAmAllEyes]

As an Autistic person, this conversation made my brain cave in on itself

[@ladev91]

That's the correct response to this debate

[@trapsarentgaymcgee5202]

LMAO at the back and forth with Dan and Destiny at the beginning was hilarious.

[@AddhyanY]

When Dan did the voice it got me😂😂

[@hrknesslovesu]

Blue users

[@_S0Y]

Dan plays a great woman

[@AnimosityIncarnate]

Dan the content man

[@couldyou4745]

11 IQ sense of humor.

[@Rat-King27]

I think my biggest issue with this whole discussion is that trans seems to be moving further away from a medical term, so if trans now meams anyone who doesn't 100% identity with their birth gender, that's like 90% of people, I often queetion what being a "man" even means anymore. So we either need to stop calling non-binary people "trans", or stop calling those with medical gender dysphoria "trans" and just call them dysphoric or something, because someone with gender dysphoria, and some quirky teen that doesn't think they're male or female, they aren't remotly similar, so called them both the same thing is insane.

[@michaelh878]

Isn't that non-binary as opposed to trans?

[@Rat-King27]

@@michaelh878 but that's the thing, non-binary falls under the label of trans, as trans in modern usage, just means not identifying with your birth gender.

[@DavidJones-ot8qu]

@@michaelh878 non binary is just not real. i would suggest there’s almost no real internal experience of gender at all, rather ppl are obsessed with obtaining the proper distinctions of their genders is a social setting to gain validation, not to heighten or entertain some internal gender craving

[@Sue_Me_Too]

@@DavidJones-ot8qu "gender" happens when people interact with each other. Your "gender experience" is how I interact with my perception of you, specifically in regards to your sex. You feel like a man when you're treated like a man and when you do things that other men do. One person alone on an island for their whole life doesn't know what a man or a woman even is, so they have no frame of reference to experience "gender"

[@joocebocks8610]

@@Sue_Me_Too "One person alone on an island for their whole life doesn't know what a man or a woman even is, so they have no frame of reference to experience "gender"." But if you put two people, a man and a woman, alone on an island they will both still live intrinsically different experiences regardless of any socialization. That is the reality of where gender comes from, not some social or cultural identification.

[@woodsmand]

I like that self ID is the only requirement. When ever I'm disagree with someone on trans issues and they try that "you wouldn't understand your cis" i say I'm trans and instantly win the argument.

[@Earthad23]

These people are lost

[@blondymonk1535]

Used to be a conservative talking point tho...

[@albertosillywhips7281]

It blows my mind that so many progressives believe in this stupid self ID sh*t. 1. Your self perception can be objectively wrong, In fact, people are wrong about their self perceptions all the time. 2. You self perception can be harmful to to yourself and to others

[@woodsmand]

@@blondymonk1535 yeah well that doesn't mean its wrong

[@Sue_Me_Too]

@@blondymonk1535 TFW you realize that Conservatives are right sometimes.

[@kitmcselby]

The point Pisco makes at 46:28 is where this argument falls down for me, because he's lumping Transsexuals in with Transgender people by just calling them all "Trans". This stance highlights perfectly what Destiny was saying when he talks about how important aligned definitions in speech are. If there's no universal definitions in speech then the only possible outcome is a breakdown of understanding and communication across the board because the people using the words don't even agree on what they mean.

[@rainingentertainment3104]

Why can’t they just be mentally ill why are we victimized for their own suicides when majoriry of the suicides in America are white men and we’re doing absolutely nothing. Also funny the number of trans women that were white men. There’s also an epidemic of mental illness so is it possible this could be rogd.

[@deach5254]

You got to 46:28 before his argument fell down?

[@KimmminemWest]

Trans ideology doesn't make any sense regardless how u word it.

[@Justin-fb9ir]

I don’t know if Pisco has ever made a good argument and I’d shed tears if I ever had bum as my lawyer

[@DavidJones-ot8qu]

it’s odd to separate transsexuals and transgenders; they’re the same group and, ultimately, transsexual is the more accurate term as the goal of someone with gender dysphoria is to shift their sexual characteristics, not simply their gender

[@siege1289]

Imagine this doctor as your doctor and Pisco as your lawyer... 💀

[@officialasa]

“Imagine this incredibly intelligent person as your doctor” Oh no! What a prospect!

[@Sue_Me_Too]

@@officialasa I notice you didn't defend Piss Co

[@robosoldier11]

I find it funny how it’s come full circle. Destiny argued with Sargon years ago on definitions of men and woman. Which Destiny argued it was ok to change and wouldn’t have major impact. Now he is arguing for hard definitions because now it’s potentially going to impact trans people. Kinda funny ultimately.

[@siege1289]

@@robosoldier11 Yup.

[@robosoldier11]

@@siege1289 I’d be curious if one were to ask him if he’d be willing to go back to men and men, woman and are woman. Form of language and definition which includes having transgender individuals be the 3rd integer. As categorically it clearly is it’s own criteria, if we are to define it. Would he be for that. Or will he turn into an annoying sophist and revert back to his state all those years ago and say “why does it matter” or “what utility do we get out of it?” Or whatever other question he would pose not to say otherwise.

[@LoudWaffle]

This was a real snoozefest, I understand now why it's not on the main channel.

[@gloryus8892]

So Pisco’s(?) point is that the conservative caricature of trans people is correct in some cases: Some trans people are not disadvantaged or oppressed. They do not need help being accepted, and society doesn’t need to alter its heteronormative precedence. Transitioning is purely an aesthetic choice.

[@bell1990]

I find part of this interesting, specifically the part where they are talking about the island hypothetical. And it's actually a point i use regularly. That the idea of transgenderism is impossible if there is no binary of sex or when you separate this idea of gender and sex. Because you can not feel like you are something you have never experienced. If you are not a woman, then you can't explain what it feels like to be a woman because there is no rule that goes across the board that all women experience.. But what dysphoria tells us is basically that. Your sex does not feel correct, and because it belongs in a binary, by default, you are the other.

[@dondotta256]

Im sooo glad MindWaves came in to even further sidetrack this conversation . He comes in like "no your wrong" what a loser haha

[@mharris4264]

He's probably the most arrogant orbiter that seems to always side with Destiny. He comes in and everyone has to restate things that have been hashed out.

[@Theactivepsychos]

I identify as someone who identifies as trans

[@jakebreaker]

I identify as someone who thinks someone who identifies as trans isn't someone who identifies as trans.

[@Theactivepsychos]

@@jakebreaker my mate identifies as someone who would make a good mate.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

That's funny, I don't identify as somebody who identifies you as trans. We're at an impasse

[@Theactivepsychos]

@@Sue_Me_Too unless we’re just identifying as people at an impasse? This is tough work isn’t it. I wish we could go back to gameboys, problem pages and the underwear section in a mail order catalogue. Simpler times we’ll never see again.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

@@Theactivepsychos Kids these days never even had to wait for the picture to finish loading in over their dialup internet before their mom gets home.

[@zeroinjack4380]

The entire first hour of this went nowhere either because the doctor gave up on pushing or because he never understood destiny’s position from the get go despite him never changing the words he used to describe his position.

[@TheDraco175]

Pisco's argument is completely destroyed by pointing out that blackface doesnt make you black.

[@diivaiinthehouse1]

That's funny 😂

[@KimmminemWest]

According to trans ideology u don't need dysphoria to be trans .. u can just have surgery and take hormones

[@Macheako]

@@KimmminemWest so then if i put on black face.....i can start singing along to rap songs when the n-word gets said???? #heaven

[@KimmminemWest]

@@Macheako you can do whatever u want sir or ma'am.

[@adamyooz]

@@Macheako Finally…

[@johnblake255]

I’m not on the left or right side and have worked in mental health for 15 years, with trans patients for the past 9 years. I can honestly say I absolutely agree with Destiny 💯% across the board from a treatment and experience perspective. The person debating Destiny on this doesn’t seem to have a firm grasp on mental health as it relates to those with gender dysphoria and those who want to be someone else cus they don’t like themselves in general, which are not the same thing. There is a big distinction that isn’t recognized by the general public as a whole.

[@darkwitnesslxx]

Pissco is a tool. Who constantly argues shit he doesn't believe. He just enjoys being contrarian, which is why he went into law.and also wny he wont last as a lawyer.

[@flipnskater]

I remember my first bussy...

[@brotherironer5061]

i do too, i thought i was getting pussy but not everyone with a girls name turns out to be a girl

[@DubcatcherAmazing]

@@brotherironer5061 nah u knew

[@Victor-gz8ml]

​@@brotherironer5061 you defo knew 😭

[@tramarthomas6105]

​@@Victor-gz8ml you going with it after finding out and knowing beforehand are two different things

[@Victor-gz8ml]

@@tramarthomas6105 hey man I'm not judging. I'd keep going too lmao

[@galibx2332]

If my grandma had wheels she would have been a bike.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

*M I N D B L O W N*

[@adamyooz]

Her not having wheels didn’t stop me from riding her tho 😈

[@yarpenzigrin1893]

@@adamyooz Ewww

[@mylescobalt5676]

Pisco gives me hope for the world. If he can be a successful lawyer, then absolutely no one is stupid enough to fail in life.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

I feel like if he was *being a successful lawyer* then he wouldn't have all this spare time to stream with....

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

He's probably way smarter than you could ever be, so nice self own

[@mylescobalt5676]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5o I'm sorry I made fun of your favorite orbiter. :( I hope you recover from this grave emotional injury.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

@@mylescobalt5676 He's just right about this, and you're wrong. That's all

[@georgehall6597]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5oit’s a debate over an opinion. No one is right or wrong lol

[@bizzzzzzle]

Pisco’s constant invention of people that either don’t exist or are exceedingly rare , to make his points is infuriating.

[@MungeParty]

This is like listening to people talk about fantasy football. So much of this energy is dedicated to political strategy and so little about solving any actual problems for anyone.

[@Snack-Sized-Femboy]

Oh lord... Is this one meant for me? Fem presenting guys, femboys, traps, twinks. We do exist. We are not trans. I have had multiple trans friends attempt to convince me that I'm actually trans, using a pretty offensive term "egg" to refer to traps who "just haven't come out of their shell yet", or "really know they are a girl in their heart".

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Yeah it's ridiculous.

[@brianlowe904]

What would happen to femboy hooters if these people got their way.

[@Macheako]

see id just try 2 convince ya ur gay, so those boyz are better than me ❤

[@furyberserk]

That argument could be repurposed that men in the 50s could state a woman's place because they know what women are. Reverse it on them.

[@connorwhite6722]

egg irl just takes normal shit "omg im such an egg because i dont like people seeing my nibbles"

[@disaintoscar]

good way to end my shift🙏🏼

[@Canklemore]

Every time you guys said "moderate to severe" I kept thinking "Plaque Psoriasis"

[@radMisc]

Pisco's representation in the beginning makes no sense

[@benskurbe]

This guys argument style is just “lets just imagine a hypothetical in which im right, would you grant that im right?”

[@Sue_Me_Too]

I don't think Piss Co should be allowed to drive a car...

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

Why?

[@rebekahdavis5935]

There SHOULD be heavy scrutiny and gate kept with children AND ADULTS BOTH!! These are SERIOUS decisions. damn!

[@JRSS06]

With adults? nah

[@contentsniffer]

Hey guys, remember when Lamewaves joined the call and everyone clapped? Exactly.

[@Enercia]

I didn't clap, but damn was it a good change of pace

[@gatrow581]

Destinys reason for not debating Avi doesn’t make sense…. He has no problem with Avi but doesn’t like his community? Whatv

[@2vexy]

Its guilt by association

[@cynicalidealist11]

@@2vexy What is the issue he has with the AY community? Is it just because they’re into formal logic and don’t tolerate bullshit sophistry?

[@2vexy]

@@cynicalidealist11 Yeah something like that. I think the main thing that caused it was when he debated that Jack guy from the AY community about the LTV and the AY community pointed out that Destiny lost the debate, that seemed to have hurt D-mans feelings a bit and he stopped interacting with them after that.

[@oedipuslaius7793]

My man! Endorsing the Blanchardism, hilarious

[@clevernugget]

How does a trans person know what the opposite gender feels like in the first place? We cannot explain the inner feeling of gender just align to social expression, how does a trans person know they actually feel like the opposite gender?

[@Sue_Me_Too]

They can't, philosophically speaking. What's it like to *be a dog?* Well, that's just impossible for me to say.

[@Jade0603]

It’s more like… you can’t just live as your given gender because it causes so much pain it’s unbearable.

[@hails2991]

It's a mix of the feeling of discust with your current body, you see yourself and the traits that aren't femenine/masculine feel wrong. Euphoria from feeling like the gender you identify with and your mental image of yourself.

[@Jade0603]

@@hails2991 Yea, too add. There are cases of medical conditions like Cloacal Exstrophy or Penile agenesis. Both of those have caused hormonally developed males to be assigned female. They mostly end up seeing themselves as boys when they grow up, or being a masculine girl at the very least. That other person comparing it to knowing how it feels like to be a dog is wrong. They’re a different species. Gender development has diverse biological causes, that strongest one is being hormonal exposure in utero. Complete Androgen Insensitively Syndrome for example, is a condition where a male doesn’t get effected at all by androgens. They develop a female identity growing up.

[@ChenKaifeng]

Word games and arguments that don't map into reality is the new wave.

[@JurasJankauskas]

I think the problem is that we're trying to manufacture a definition that includes all legitimate trans people, but doesn't include people who pretend to be trans or are tumblr/trans where they use made up or she/they pronouns despite changing nothing about their appearance or even the way they act or feel about themselves. I think if that's the goal, Destiny's definition is closer, however there should be a caveat that someone who willingly fully transitions despite claiming to not have gender dysphoria, still has some innate drive that would qualify them as trans and that drive could be likened to gender dysphoria.

[@OverlordDenooh]

Yeah I agree but that won't happen most people even mental health professionals won't move from their stance that you have to have active suffering which mainly has to be intense level. Hell a good amount of mental health professionals ignore any other mental issues the person has when evaluating them. For instance If someone locks up their emotions and it's to the point that it's automatic even if they have experienced all the requirements for GD they will still fail even if the professional knows about their emotional blocked issue simply because of the time frame required for actively feeling stuff.

[@Ragniirox]

If you use the treatment method to diagnose a patient, how do you know it was the proper treatment for the diagnosis? That is circular reasoning and very dangerous, especially in the field of medicine! EDIT: People do NOT have the ability to diagnose themselves. It is even recommended to psychologists/psychiatrists to seek a second opinion for their own mental health issues so why is this not the case with people who have no formal education in mental health?

[@hjge1012]

What's with that hypothetical? A. a person does not care about their gender/sex B. they want to transition. That just doesn't go together. If you really don't care all that much, you wouldn't transition.

[@michaelh878]

Exactly. I score very low on both male and female traits. I couldn't really care less if I was a male or female. It just helps being a man because I'm attracted to women but being lesbian would be fine.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

You know what I do when I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other? Get surgery because "hey, why not?"

[@usucdik]

Maybe you don't care but your parents really wanted one gender and you care a lot about making them happy. Not sure why you're caught up on the "want' part. The whole thing was about where the issue was stemming from.

[@haonyoass9556]

10 mins in and this hypothetical is so convoluted. I can’t even tell what point he’s trying to make

[@Snailshroom]

I totally agree with Destiny here. I'm a person who actually had severe gender dysphoria my whole life, and I need hormones to keep myself sane. Being grouped with people who don't have dysphoria feels like it's deligitimizing me and my medical needs.

[@jdout]

So wait, you are given hormones from your birth gender?

[@Lili-ey1nd]

They are doing it for social or fetish reasons they DO NOT deserve the same protected medical affirming care you do!

[@Nazyairsengikar]

Do you believe it's a hormone imbalance?

[@wildpomegranates2151]

as a trans person with gender dysphoria since puberty, trans folks without gender dysphoria aren't the reason that your identity and needs are being delegitimized, especially on a social level.

[@frenchfry4017]

As with everything it's f**king morons who ruin everything for everybody.

[@ArtoriasAkai]

24:54 I have an answer for this. I think it comes down to reasoning. If said person was using an emotional/in the moment reason. Say they are having a bad divorce or being fired from their job, loss of a loved one, things that could be helped with treatment or general help. Then that is an unsound mind. But if someone is terminal with all avenues explored. I would consider that a sound and rational mind. In short, the difference being are you doing it for yourself or for others. No, "the world would be better without me" isn't valid.

[@ItsMe-cp8xc]

I can imagine a trans person who happens to be trans and doesn’t really care, but at that point, it wouldn’t even matter. They wouldn’t need to be part of the discussion because they don’t care, so they’d essentially just be cisgender, but more complicated.

[@gablison]

In Piscos world: Rock climbers who want to be lighter can instead of being in wheelchairs for extended periods of time to lower the muscle mass in their legs should just chop their legs off so they can campus everywhere. It's not like it's a medically necessary surgery where there's necrosis or nerve/ligament/tendon damage where cutting off the leg could save the persons life or significantly increase their standard of living, they just want to chop their legs off for shits and giggles. What's the impetus to go through all the surgeries and hormonal changes and social issues without the debilitating discomfort of your way of life currently as your birth sex? Just cross-dress and tuck or wear booby pads or binders or packers if it's so transient for you.

[@TheToxicGunn3r]

Destiny and Dan are national treasures

[@bell1990]

I find it hysterical that the guy literally proved one of conservatives main points when he said that we cant just use dysphoria because some cis people experience some dysphoria. Which is the point. If you start transitioning kids because they feel some dysphoria there is a not insignificant amount of people who might have grown out of their dysphoria or the amount would typically fall under what most would consider not. unusual for someone going through the rapid changes of puberty. And those people because of some feelings they had at a young age might have severe effects sue to being medically transitioned

[@oliverg.1537]

I've wanted to see Destiny contend with Avi's line of argumentation for so long. They need to continue this uninterrupted!

[@stelchipz6932]

I looked up about 3 quarters of the way thru and realized Steven was playing Minecraft 😂

[@Sue_Me_Too]

FINALLY! CONTENT!!

[@MMAGamblingTips]

“No hymen no diamond” not content? 😂

[@TheFluffyKitty]

It's nice to see Steven finally debate someone on his level after so long. Influencers and TkTokers can come up gith interesting ideas but they don't bring the peak quality discourse that intellectuaks like Dr. Avi, Matt Dillahunty, Thomas Borgardus and the professors do.

[@goddess_bree]

got to 35 min mark and that Pisco dude totally ignores the fact that there are trans ppl who have dysphoria who CAN NOT transition or present how they want due to their situation such as living with and being a caregiver/caretaker for an older family member, wanting to stay with a spouse who doesnt accept them that way and they dont present how they want or transition to save the marriage (often kids are involved with the situation too). Dysphoria has to be a big part of the definition of trans. (FYI I am a transwoman so I am speaking from a place of experience).

[@Earzentail]

If you feel you'd probably like being the other gender more and transition, I'd still technically categorize it as dysphoria and the person trans if they transition, but it would be a medically unnecessary transition, since they are fine either way.

[@OEFTF11]

I'm just a dumb boomer, but if you would have told me in my 20s in the 2000's that in 2023 grown men would be spending hours seriously debating the definition of transgender people I would of laughed in your face.

[@BlackUnicorn420]

The conversation at 30:00 gives me a headache.. I think those conversations are why so many people blow the hole thing off.

[@TheNietzschian]

Big brain Avi cannot be debated while playing games simultaneously 😎

[@Monkey_slapping_keys]

Not listened yet, Avi is very good normally, hopefully not a shit show.

[@tonanbora4388]

For the pain killers arguement, no, in that situation, he'd be advicating for the ability for people too go in, and demand pain killers simply because they like taking pain killers.

[@aj00]

Since when is Pisco a doctor????

[@amandamcgovern5744]

Omg ppl don’t realize that about 70% of Transwomen are AGP.

[@Jade0603]

Source????

[@halofornoobs93]

I hate how Pisco thinks that every hypothetical needs to be engaged with. It is such a common thing among young legal students. They think that if they put out an absurd hypothetical that forces the other side to a conclusion that they win the argument. They don't. I can't wait for Pisco to try that in the real world so he can realize it doesn't actually work.

[@Spencerwalker21]

My gf does this to no end but even dumber to the point where she'll deny reality to try to own a lib.

[@lampad4549]

Isn't that what destiny does all the time? Hypothetical are there to test your principles in the most extreme circumstances no, to figure where they actually lie.

[@Spencerwalker21]

@@lampad4549 true but In some cases they go way beyond what even destiny would do.

[@halofornoobs93]

@@lampad4549 Destiny does it as well and it annoys me, but Pisco does it in almost every debate I watch, even on other channels. Pisco is an actual lawyer which is why it frustrates me so much more than Destiny. They are there to test your principles, yes, but when you present a hypothetical beyond the scope of the issue to the point where there is only one reasonable answer, only to take that answer and apply it to the original point, it doesn't work. That's what I mean by some hypotheticals not being worth any sort of engagement. People will use it to trap the other person and then misrepresent their point. If your argument is crutching on hypotheticals, it is time to go back to the drawing board.

[@bradspitt3896]

@@lampad4549 Hypotheticals usually change the human condition as so become totally useless.

[@shizzy8250]

A weird hypothetical conversation about the 1% of the 0.1%

[@PhantomRAQ50]

No Pisco, you cant argue backwards and say if not all gender dysphoria is trans, then not all trans is dysphoric just like you cant say bc not all canines are wolves then not all wolves are canines, its invalid logic

[@capoman1]

Just like people get totally caught up or obsessed with race identity discussions and all the talking points, I think trans can be caught up in the same way.

[@deltamike2154]

I wish I could’ve been here to give Stephen an idea. I think the following hypothetical would’ve crushed 95% of the other side’s ideas: Let’s say one patient enters the hospital suffering from intermittent bouts of mania and depression. Their emotions and mental health are a roller coaster and a psychiatrist correctly diagnoses them with bipolar disorder/manic depression. The person is prescribed anti-psychotics. Now think of a second person who enters the same hospital and tells the shrink that they VOLUNTARILY/WILLFULLY augment their personality every week or so, alternating between a lunatic and a downer. They do so out of preference. Would the second patient be appropriately diagnosed with manic depression and prescribed anti-psychotics? Of course not. This is the same distinction that exists between Destiny’s definition of trans and the opponent’s. Destiny says trans requires a person suffer from dysphoria and they can’t help it. The other guy says they are still trans even if they’re just doing it for fun.

[@berrybones3112]

Piss Co is a dummy

[@keggerous]

Just an fyi, if you go to a therapist and you're meeting a certain threshold of wellbeing, they will often times tell you either, "We can cut way back on your sessions" or something like, "I think we should talk about transitioning you out of regular therapy"... The idea that we "treat" people that don't have these negative issues in psychology, is just not 100% true. Yes, you can get some sessions in without have any strict condition. Usually, the point of those sessions is to diagnose you. If those conditions don't exist, many times you will not be treated after that. You certainly won't go through treatments that you don't require because you don't have the conditions associated with the treatments. BTW, therapy isn't just for people with mental health issues. You can use therapy as a way to simply talk through problems you have. If you have no problems, either mental health wise or interpersonally or anything like that, therapists will 100% stop treating you.

[@davidgeiger]

Sometimes I think humanity will still be arguing over what it truly means to be human long after the machines have left us behind.

[@blinkanddie3397]

4:15 Jesus Christ this is comedy gold.

[@souljaboyisbad]

I was wondering if this debate happened, good to see it

[@seanjenkins5505]

Destiny and this Dan guy should do a podcast or something

[@svmei]

I really don't understand how anyone likes Pisco, gotta be one of the most insufferable orbiters

[@Hubin12]

Mindwaves is so braindead whenever he enters the call unironically worse than qorantos

[@phantom_drone]

TRUE

[@branchie8979]

actually true, him and the first guy were making no sense. and the funniest thing is destiny and the avi pretty much agree but are getting caught up the terminology of things ;-;

[@Myk_Osborne]

This was a spectacularly long time to say very little in an effort to help a hypothetical group of people who may not even exist.

[@TheRedHaze3]

Assisted suicide should only be allowed for specific cases, like when someone has a painful terminal illness like stage 4 cancer or something. If your life is hell and a reasonable person (someone else) rates your chances of your circumstances changing as being pretty low, then you should be able to get help ending your life. But *plenty* of suicidal people are only temporarily suicidal. If they keep going and try to change their circumstances, they usually can.

[@SoldierGeneral64]

Suicide is all about doing it in the moment. Not sure how well that applies to assisted suicide.

[@matsab7930]

Euthanasia is done in parts of Europe, but it requires months of consultations with multiple doctors to rule out the sort of temporary suicidality.

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@SoldierGeneral64 Suicide is a *lot* easier if you don't have to go through with it yourself.

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@matsab7930 Yep, that's what I was thinking of.

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@diamonda3253 1. Having depression and thoughts of "what's the point" is not the same as having suicidal ideation (I never said anything about depression), which means you're genuinely considering and planning your suicide, in detail. 2. When did I say *every* period of suicidal ideation is temporary? 3. Not once did I say money would solve everyone's problems. 'Circumstances' was *deliberately* vague.

[@zeroinjack4380]

I have now finished the whole video. The doctor semantically was not able to follow the logic and skirted around the concern that people who have no gender dysphoria could just start going down a path in order to fit into society in a way they deem beneficial or in an attempt to address other underlying issues and the effect of doing so on the economy and societal mental health as a whole.

[@joebobarker1556]

Pisco's voice sounds like he wanted to be a lawyer when he was little.

[@AK4525]

Bummer it never worked out and he had to settle for being a debate bro instead

[@saschas.18]

Does Destiny keep Pisco on retainer in his chat? Most people I've met who are lawyers don't have much of any freetime to fuck around on a stream all day, so I'm wondering if random legal counsel for dgg is his actual day job.

[@asw654]

You probably know lawyers who are working. There are tons of "lawyers" (people who graduated with a JD and passed the bar) but haven't found a job nor opened their own office yet. The market is saturated.

[@TheGavrael]

The self-mutilation argument line is easy to draw for me. If you want to cut off your leg, fine you are an adult. But you do not get to then claim disability or government benefits due to being intentionally handicapped. The difference between suicide and mutilation is just that: you are still alive and increase your burden to society.

[@falseprophet1024]

Should a doctor be able to do it to you if you ask them to?

[@niles1492]

burden to society or just themselves and maybe family... they can easily attach a wooden leg, or crutch and still have hands (and a foot.

[@TheGavrael]

@@niles1492 lol, yeah. But a clip I saw was of a woman/girl who intentionally blinded herself

[@TheGavrael]

@@falseprophet1024 definitely not. But a doctor can fix you after. First rule of medicine is supposed to be Do No Harm.

[@slimshidy2451]

​@@falseprophet1024 no because it violates the oath doctors take to do no harm my dad's a retired doctor you're not supposed to have unnecessary medical operations cause all surgeries have the risk of death . Infact an 18ur old passed from transition surgery recently

[@jowr2000]

This guy’s a doctor???? Unbelievable

[@Assaut19283]

I feel like were getting to the point where people are desperate to stand out in a sea of people who are also desperate to stand out so now anyone can be anything, including trans.

[@Rat-King27]

So they're basically just this generations goth kids?

[@killer3000ad]

@@Rat-King27 I wish. Most goths grew out of it and at least they didn't mess with their bodies and damage them permanently. I'd rather have goths and emos who don't have gender dysphoria than a bunch of kids with irreversibly damaged bodies.

[@Macheako]

im just desperate ❤

[@alphana7055]

The question should be: If gender is socially constructed, why need surgery?

[@ladev91]

Stop it. Don't make me think

[@hails2991]

Gender and trans is weird. As a trans person and someone who has dysphoria I feel like someone who was born as the wrong sex and in the wrong body which is why the need for hormones and surgery. Whereas gender in itself is built around the way society sees different genders. But I also don't understand people who are trans but say they don't have dysphoria as if you're in the wrong body you should automatically have dysphoria. I just don't like creating infighting in the community and gatekeeping when I don't 100% understand their side

[@letschief1540]

When Qarantos first jumped on I legit thought it was Haz 😅😂

[@KonigGustavAdolph]

Man, I want Pisco to try this hypothetical/pedantic asshattery in court.

[@falseprophet1024]

Why are you wanting his client to be found guilty?

[@KonigGustavAdolph]

@falseprophet1024 Hey, it could end up being a civil case! Then his client would just be liable.

[@falseprophet1024]

@KonigGustavAdolph Lol. His client will be sued for $100 and will end up owing $10,000...

[@DemothHymside]

I don't understand Pisco's desire for symmetry with "if you can have dysphoria without needing to be trans, why can't you be trans without dysphoria?" It's like he's never heard the logical statement that all pitbulls are dogs, but not all dogs are pitbulls.

[@frenchfry4017]

Blindspots, man. They do be ruining alotta lives.

[@MMAGamblingTips]

How’d this Doc pass his clinicals? Also, the content has been fire. I mean, “No hymen, no diamond.” 🚬

[@PiecefulKaos]

Are you a bot or something? What kind of question is that?

[@MMAGamblingTips]

@@PiecefulKaos a bot? What are you talking about? This doctor is wild af.

[@dontyoufuckinguwume8201]

@@MMAGamblingTips what do you disagree with that he said?

[@Mrraerae]

​@@dontyoufuckinguwume8201 they wont answer. None of them will

[@TheGavrael]

Right? His take on "Insurance still covers therapy after you are well" is insane. 90% of insurance plans are trash and Medicare frequently denies coverage for things that seem obvious. He's not working in the accounting department of his clinic.

[@SuburbanConan]

If you go real quiet.....and listen really, really carefully.... You can hear the exact moment they all realise that they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Word soup.

[@KevinScalf]

Pisco engenders an anti nerd rage in me that in a bygone era would see him stuffed in a locker. I think it's his too much saliva voice.

[@anthonyponafala7973]

@35:00 you can't be dysphoric without being dysmorphic. If you have dysphoria it literally means you have an issue with your body. Which is dysmorphia

[@Matt-sk6hi]

Piscoe is totally lost in the sauce. He is overthinking this shit way too hard. Like these hypotheticals are unironically impossible.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

There's literally nothing crazy about his hypothetical because it's not even a hypothetical. There's plenty of people who transition who don't suffer from dysphoria but just prefer to express as the opposite gender. Destiny has only recently become a transmedicalist, and before that he used to define it the same way as Pisco

[@Matt-sk6hi]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5o So someone who transitions for the sake of getting off has a comparable experience to trans people?

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

@@Matt-sk6hi It doesn't necessarily have to be for the sake of getting off. And yes, the comparable experience is that both wish to express themselves as the opposite gender. The reasons as to why are irrelevant.

[@Matt-sk6hi]

@@user-uq4gr5nl5o No that person doesn't want to express as that gender, they want to get off more. That's not the same thing.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

@@Matt-sk6hi Even if that was true, which it's not, my argument still stands. The reasons as to why they want to transition are irrelevant. Transitioning is what makes you transgender.

[@capoman1]

This is a full on pseudo science or religion at this point.

[@Earthad23]

Transformers , robots in disguise 🥸

[@theamazingtiny]

Video ended kind of abruptly.

[@note4note804]

Who are these people that are so indifferent about gender that they'd feel zero incongruency with their current body, but would undergo 2+ years of HRT and cosmetic surgeries? What is the motivation, outside of either profit, fame, fetish or abuse of a system?

[@abshaheen5713]

Yoooo mor Dr. Avi content!

[@sirkabikaze4949]

I "transitioned" from my bedroom to the kitchen, guess I'm trans now. 😂

[@Earthad23]

There’s no way to falsify your claim

[@AyubuKK]

How is it so hard to understand that a Trans person is someone who genuinely feels they were born as the wrong sex in the wrong body and thus would want to transition to the other gender and sex. It’s not about just wanting to dress up as the opposite sex. That would mean people like F1nn5ter are trans.

[@WhoTookAllTheGoodNames]

I honestly like Q more than pisco at this point, this man is insufferable

[@Rat-King27]

At least Q is entertaining.