Detangling IHOPKC - Crossroads of John Wimber and Bob Jones - Episode 195 Branham Research Podcast

[@patrickwalker4259]

John Wimber, Bob Jones, IHOPKC and now the Vineyard, how many more starting of with Branham, I' just like it all, John and Charles's channels I have learned so much on these Cultists movements it's very very interesting God bless you guys 👍✝️✡️🕎🙏♥️

[@Joycesammons]

Back in the 80’s I visited Metro Church twice. My friend wanted a ride so I told her that I would take her but I refused to go back after the second visit. I don’t know how to explain it except I felt like I was in the presence of evil. There was 3 men standing on the platform- Bickle, Jones. Don’t remember the third. It was the weirdest feeling. My friend was upset with me because I wouldn’t go back

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

It sounds like you had good discernment.

[@adaughterofthetruth6992]

My biological dad had connections with Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, John Wimber and many others, including John Paul Jackson. His name was Wade Hankins from Lees Summit, MO. Wade was the pastor of a Vineyard church in the KC Region and he took Bob Jones into our fellowship when Bob Jones was on church discipline from Metro/Mike Bickle for his sexual misconduct. Bob was allowed to minister freely, which is a reflection of the leaderships character. I was in my 20's and was very immature at the time. I have a story to tell and how the Lord Jesus revealed William Branham to me in a dream to show me the 'root' of the Charismatic/NAR movement. I knew nothing of William Branham at all. I was shown a man, who was dead, but was hoovering in a casket by occult power. His followers did not want to bury him because they were waiting for him to resurrect. Upon waking, I spent months researching who this man was, and of course, was lead to the unfolding of WB and his occult involvement along with the false spirit that posed as the Holy Spirit...... which has continued into the NAR movement etc. The Lord revealed all of this to me in 2019 when I began to realize that something was very very wrong with all the kinds of 'revelation' my dad was having in relation to all these guys. I was lead out of NAR.. and have been recovering and re establishing all doctrine on Scripture. I want to tell my story to someone - it needs to be known.

[@LeavingtheMessage]

william-branham.org/site/contact

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

I look forward to seeing you on this podcast soon!! I want to hear your story!!!

[@adaughterofthetruth6992]

@@LeavingtheMessage Thank you so very much. I left a message through the link.

[@adaughterofthetruth6992]

@@lesliewells-ig5dl That is so kind.. Jesus has done so very much and I just want to do my part and share my journey out of 30 years in NAR.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

@@adaughterofthetruth6992 You have a very important story to tell!! ,I'm sure a lot of people will be helped by hearing it!

[@bruceedwards3844]

I remember listening to a series of cassette tapes issued by the Vineyard which was entitled "the Vineyard in the 90s" and the tapes were an interview with Bob Jones. One thing Bob said was that during the 90s God was going to add a zero to the Vineyard. He explained that there were around 50 thousand people in the Vineyard movement at that time and that by the end of the 90s it would be 500 thousand. To the best of my knowledge this kind of growth did not occur.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

I'm not surprised. Was that supposed to be a prophecy?

[@pdkonkol]

He said the exact same thing about IHOPKC!

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

@@pdkonkol I wonderbif he said that about every group that was in his circle. And it never happened.

[@SaintThomius]

Love this series!

[@drfter1989]

Thank for this video. I was critical and really disappointed by the previous Wimber one not because I’m sort of wimber acolyte, but I do think it verged heavily into mocking people with charismatic beliefs or into saying in a black and white way that “those people” are wrong and “I am right.”. I think there’s a lot of your listeners that are coming out of that environment (like me) but still hold some of the beliefs and practices so to have someone on that kind of mocking tone towards charismatics was frustrating. I used to be in heavily reformed circles and it was extremely harmful to me. Anyway, I have appreciated your videos as I am on a journey of detangling, just the last one was pretty hard for me to stomach. 😅

[@LeavingtheMessage]

Stick around! if you're like me, you'll find a lot you disagree with, even by my guests. But also, if you're like me, some of what the guests say is closer to the truth than I was comfortable to stomach when I first heard it ...

[@Charity-vm4bt]

To Drifter1989, I agree with you completely. For a better perspective, there are you tube channels that give a more balanced perspective. At the time of The Vineyard, a healing movement was going on. Some of the classic mainstream denominations plus the Baptist church had been infiltrated by perpetrators, especially involving S.A. The young people around ages 20 to 40 were desperate for relief and healing. The Vineyard offered that. It met a need. It was independent and tried to remain faithful to God. For those who sincerely benefited from the healing provided by the Vineyard, it is painful to hear negative criticism of what was literally a life-saver for many escaping from predatory mainline Protestant denominations and also liturgical churches. The force behind all demonic infiltration is freemasonry. It would be better to expose the root rather than get all fascinated with playing with the bitter fruit. John Wimber started out as genuine and authentic and launched a movement. It was a separate stream from the other streams you identified here as predators. The Vineyard remained pure and distinct, it was separate from all others that came after. That might be the cause of the "typical Protestant knee-jjerk divisiveness" that fuels this endless stream of pseudo- apologetics.

[@christianwoudenberg3393]

On top of Bob Scott another formerly aligned voice that has been profoundly critical is Jack Deere, check out Stephen Deere’s Divine Detours substack for Jacks articles

[@bruceedwards3844]

I spoke with Bob Jones on the telephone in the mid 90s after he had left Kansas City and moved to the east coast. During the course of our conversation I mentioned I had a friend who was a missionary in Russia and he told me that Russia was going to have the greatest revival the world had evrer seen.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Sounds like he just said stuff off the top of his head. Was that supposed to be a prophecy?

[@PaulHein-f7s]

Hasn’t happened

[@DiegoDomingo-o7y]

There was a big (at the time) scandal when THE PSYCHIC OBSERVER spiritualist magazine (1959/1960 issues) exposed the faked "materializations" of spirits in seance rooms at Camp Chesterfield in Chesterfield, Indiana The editor was invited to film a seance but he used an infra-red lens that would see/record was happening in the dark seance room. The editor (Tom O'Neil) ran front page expose headlines and it caused a ruckus but the backlash against the editor, (canceled subscriptions by readers and canceled advertising by mediums/psychics) caused the demise of THE PSYCHIC OBSERVER. A case of the messager getting shot for exposing the fraud he was heartbroken to reveal.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Yes, if you expose someone with a following, the followers often try to destroy you even though you have proof for everything you say. John knows that firsthand.

[@will2003michael2003]

There was a traveling Minister named Joshua Mills that I attended many meetings with in the 2000s. He was popular in fring Pentecostal groups. He would have gold dust fall all over him while he preached and worshiped. His message were infantile but his signs were not. He claimed God taught him how to play the piano in one day. He claimed to travel in the third dimension to other countries and talk to world leaders. My parents took him out to lunch and he had gold dust appear all over his outfit while they were eating. He would also have manna appear in a Bible at times. I found out all of these are likely tricks when when I grew up. He still does ministry today but he has dropped the show tricks except for Faith healing and prophetic. My mom famed a pile of the gold dust (glitter) and keeps it next to her bed to remind her of the miracle. I figured out, he has highly styled hair that peaks in the middle like a mullet, I believe he puts wet glitter underneath that flaked off when it dries and would fall mid sermon or worship set, he always wears dark clothes for affect. the manna never happened in front of anyone, which makes it a strange sign. My parents live in Iowa and ran a conference ministry that hosted a lot of famous up-and-coming miracle workers, deliverance, ministries and prophetic training bootcamps in the early 2000s. We were shocked to find out about half of the people that we had come had the most ungodly scamming personalities when you met them outside of the meetings. Several were later caught doing things like painting gem stones, I caught one facebooking people. The sad thing is a lot of people have caught these ministers faking it but they don’t want say anything because they don’t want to discredit the Holy Spirit.

[@will2003michael2003]

Patricia King (Pat Cocking) did prophetic Boot Camp, I think she was completely sincere but drinking her own Kool-Aid by believing fortuneteller stuff. We had Todd Bentley and many others. The exorcism or spiritual warfare stuff was everywhere and yet did nothing.

[@BeLohse68]

You​@@will2003michael2003

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

It’s was probably just dandruff mixed with sparkling glitter that the guy put in his hair for aesthetic purposes. Lots of women use makeup with glitter. The so called “manna” was probably just an object lesson that got confused with the real thing. That’s my charitable construction. The hype, hysteria and hucksterism would be my biggest concern. At the end of his life, John Wimber told his fellow Vineyard pastors: “Ruthlessly assert the Vineyard value of ‘no hype’ in all communications. Avoid pumping people up for the ‘new thing’ God is doing. Demystify new emphasis even as the Vineyard has attempted to demystify spiritual gifts. Understatement is a key Vineyard value that I pray will flourish for many years.”

[@BeLohse68]

@@will2003michael2003 tood Bently there's a piece of work.

[@emeldakerkhoff5754]

I went through a so called deliverance. It cause more harm than good. These maybe well meaning people opened doors they could not comprehend. Jesus ministered freedom from darkness. These men ministered darkness. They really don’t understand.

[@jizx8070]

"We're going to attempt to detangle Bob Jones" Good luck with that

[@tripletgirl2484]

Ya’ll are good communicators, thanks so much!

[@bella-bee]

I’m in the UK and the Anglican Church I grew up in had contact with John Wilber and was v popular. I remember in the early 70s, ‘71 I think, there was a Festival of Light predicted in the UK, the logo was like a nighttime satellite view of the country with foci of light (cities lit up, or churches?). I don’t think it came to anything. I drifted away 73/4

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

Sure it did. The Alpha Course has had a tremendous impact on Anglican Church outreaches.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Thanks for another great video, John and Brantley!!

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

I love it when you have Brantley on!!!

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

If one fake affirms something that another fake says, why should that have any credibility? It doesn't, but it does for some people unfortunately.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

I love the idea of consent. In pretty much everything, including prayer and prophecy.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

There is a link to the disciplinary documents here in the comments and they are fascinating. Bob Jones thought he should stay in ministry because the "gift" was so strong in him.

[@Star-dj1kw]

✅ interesting conversation

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

I feel so sorry for the good people who joined this mess because they thought it would be the best way to serve God. It sounds like stepping into quick sand. It's very hard to extricate yourself once you're in it.

[@kimrichardson4198]

What’s your take on Jim Goll? I went to Onething for 6 yrs prior to moving to KC and was part of a prophetic church in Ohio that did conferences with Jim and I absolutely loved him. We also had Bob Jones & Rick Joyner come. Now with all this stuff coming out I’m questioning everything. The past couple yrs I’ve stopped listening to Jim because of feeling something has changed with him. We had no idea about Bob Jones’ “fall” and the conference was in like 2005

[@mazzy717]

And don't forget P.Cain's cia connections

[@christianwoudenberg3393]

And MK Ultra, all the Nixon / satanic stuff

[@thevillageofnod]

With the PDiddy stuff coming out, makes me want to know how close IHOPKC is to sex trafficking networks

[@Charity-vm4bt]

Can you explain more?​@@christianwoudenberg3393

[@carolzcarolz]

​@thevillageofnod They are close. Highway I70 which runs through Kansas City is a main thoroughfair for sex trafficking. But IHOP also had a ministry called "Exodus Cry" which exposed the sex trafficking industry and rescued women out of it. Exodus Cry produced 2 movies to expose this trade. Sometime after 2012 IHOP ended sponsorship of several of its related ministries, including Exodus Cry

[@Jesusmyeverything.]

How do I contact you?

[@Jesusmyeverything.]

Thank you for this broadcast. I been doing a deep dive in Bob and too much to share in comments.

[@LeavingtheMessage]

william-branham.org/site/contact

[@ConstantCompanion]

I've been watching your videos steadily for the last few days. My son walked away from God several years ago. The most amazing thing happened. I was watching your stuff and talking to him about it. Told him that I had learned that our church was completely, totally, artificial, that you couldn't even vaguely call it christian. He got the most relieved look on his face and said, I didn't think you would ever see it. And he came back to the Lord for the first time in years because of your videos. The one place I would disagree with you is the cult mentality is not good no matter how to lose it it is. I got a big Taste of the message in my teenage years. Then after that, I was involved with Foursquare Church with a pastor who would have nothing to do with it. I just didn't know what it was. We moved to California and pretty much all the churches here have been at least mildly infected. The one we ended up in, had a pastor who at least fought it. But eventually gave in. And it cost a lot of pain. I would dispute the idea that a little bit is okay. Calls are designed to invade and take over your life. Even a little bit, like loving in the Bible is too much.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

​​@@ConstantCompanionThat is so great!!! And people love to say what is the fruit of what you are doing, John? How are you helping people? Why aren't you preaching the gospel? He is helping set captives free. Free from the cults, free to come back to God.

[@therecoverytabernacle]

I watched this creepy “sermon” from Cindy Jacobs I believe where she’s talking about Bob Jones giving her a “word” he told her to “ eat a cookie “ 🚨🚨 it was really weird knowing what he did to those girls “ for a word from the Lord”

[@bruceedwards3844]

It was Heidi Baker not Cindy Jacobs.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Steve Hassan disguishes between destructive cults and cults.

[@markb3786]

why?

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

@@markb3786 Because the dictionary definition does not define cults as something bad. It comes from the same word as culture.

[@Ruby-wise]

In events of “Spiritual Abuse”. (I prefer to call it “ Spiritual and Soul violation”…) The abuser cannot be sent to prison as a matter of law…however his victims are sentenced to a lifetime filled with memories and years of reminders and attempts to forgive their soulless violator.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Maybe Jones joined the Marines and quit or flunked out before he really became one.

[@benkennington8941]

What's wrong with the good old fashioned word UNtangle??!!

[@lamars2486]

20:30 Jones I think got his "IN" during the circus of the SCOPES MONKEY TRIAL CREW that descended on DAYTON, TN area. It was like a vaudeville carnival. the people doing all of that were from out of town. It was so "remote" and a perfect place to set up something like was set up by BAKER in Arkansas and Eureka Springs. I think oral roberts peeled off of the fruit vine of BAKERS. The "young girls college," preceeding bakers arrival, was a clue, then the "hospital" came about. I think it was more like THE BUTTERBOX BABIES like the ones that were set up in MISSOURI that Georgia TANN drew profits from. THE STORY IS SO UNFINISHED.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Right, we want to know more.

[@chimpminky]

I think you're overcomplicating this. Take Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci, both men worked at a time when they were abused and later abused boys. They both made renaissance works people love. When people look at the work they are thinking about God. They have no clue about the sexual things the men were up to. So I think the probleas is expert craftsmen made impressive idols. Perhaps these false prophets and hypnotists made excellent idols. But it has absolutely nothing to do with God and His Spirit. Idols and the idol makers, and the people that love these idols. Maybe just come away with the Lord and get revelation. God does miracles, false prophets also do miracles. It says " if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived." So yes, discernment!!!

[@ryanehlis426]

Brenham is just one person who was part of the healing revival movement that God started the same time he Made Israel 🇮🇱 a nation again in 1948. You give him to much credit. Yes he had a powerful ministry but at the end of his life he went off the rails in his theology. There is not much more to it than that. Obviously 🙄 he was not Elijah or an angel. Anyone with a basic understanding of scripture can sort out truth from deception.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

A powerful ministry, but was the power from God or Satan? He was leading so many people astray, it couldn't have been from God.

[@cathywilcox8744]

Definitely not a fan of Wimber. Not a biblical ministry AT ALL!! So many people's lives devastated by that ministry including my own. Very arrogant person.

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

I don't know what to think about the "not a biblical ministry" accusation. What are the specifics? From what I have read, Wimber had high expectations from volunteers and paid staff. The style of leadership in the Calvary Chapels and VCFs (by default) is very much a top down, the senior pastor is like Moses model of governing. The down side of that style of leadership often results in the perception (rightly or wrongly) of the senior pastor being arrogant. If you disagree with what's expected, it is a "my way or the highway" approach to those who don't want to toe the line. I suspect that could result in people feeling devastated. On the other hand, the congregational model often results in the perception of a pastor being too passive and ineffective as a leader. Wimber's model of leadership was that of leaning towards being a benevolent dictator. I don't know what it was like serving under Wimber's leadership, but based upon a few comments in various places, I wonder about not being able to live up his high expectations and keeping a healthy work life balance might have been an issue? St. Benedict's 1,500-year-old work life balance rule had an 8 hour work labor, 8 hour sleep and 8 hour non work (prayer,). balance to living each day. Did Wimber work with that model of living a flourishing life? The reason I ask was that reports are that he was plagued by health problems in his later years and died in 1997 from a brain aneurysm at the age of 63.

[@cathywilcox8744]

@@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111 I have seen so many lives torn apart because of that " ministry", and having been involved myself and meeting Wimber and knowing the people from the seminary where he taught is how I base my reasoning. I agree with spiritual gifts and truly learning to walk in the Spirit, but not bullying people. The one thing I noticed above everything else at the beginning of the so called ministry, was a complete lack of compassion. Jesus did not lack compassion and reserved His harshest criticisms for the leaders. So🤷‍♀️

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

​@@cathywilcox8744 From my perspective, having had a close friend (now deceased) who was a VCF pastor, empathic compassion was at the heart of praying for the healing of human hurts. David Pytches, who spent a lot of time with Wimber, writes in his book "Come Holy Spirit: Learning How to Minister in Power" that: "... there are some compassionate warm-hearted Christian people who are sensitive and understanding, who have natural healing abilities which accompany their prayers...and communicate a degree of healing." (p. 114) I suppose it's possible to pray for the healing of human hurts without having much of a bedside manner. That might be the reason why a whole school of thought in praying for the healing of human hurts is that of recommending "soaking prayer" (i.e. lots of time spent in empathetic prayer) as an ideal. See the works of Fr. Francis MacNutt that encourages that model of praying. Personally, I find that approach rather exhausting. I believe that doing too much of it can lead to compassion fatigue. Perhaps Wimber struggled with that? If we measure compassion by the love language of "time" spent in prayer, than Wimber might have fallen short. But I don't want to be judge on how much time should be spent by others in prayer and how emotive one should be in practicing active listening skills. In regards to "bullying" being observed at the VCF, I thought that one of the values of the VCF was to not "pressure" people? How can one bully people without pressuring them? Values are not just taught, they are caught. If Wimber engaged in bullying, than he was inconsistent with what he once taught in public. If so, that's too bad. A lesson to be learned. He might have struggled with issues related to emotional "burn out" towards the end of his ministry that impacted his ability to exude compassion and lead without bullying. What the Apostle Paul writes about on the giving of money should also apply to the giving of time in volunteer service: "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (1 Cor. 9:7) See also 1 Peter 5:3.

[@madelenewilliams3839]

Bob Jones was reconciled in JESUS and served The LORD until his passing please let it go GOD HAS HANDLED IT❤

[@joeladams8678]

Bob tried to keep Mike on track. Mike wouldn’t listen.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Why shouldn't it be exposed when the damage is still being done because some people still think he's a prophet? Was he put back into the ministry where he had the power to hurt more people? No one is saying he wasn't forgiven or saved, that is strictly betweenhim and God. Just like if a person robs someone and gets put in jail, they can repent and be forgiven, but they still have to serve the jail sentence. Jones should have never been back in ministry, ever.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

​@@joeladams8678Three false prophets who are sexual predators, Cain, Jones, Bickle, keeping each other in line. It would actually be funny if it wasn't so tragic and it didn't damage so many lives.

[@lamars2486]

​@@lesliewells-ig5dl 👍 😊 👍

[@LolaPope-s3p]

It doesn't matter if he passed away. They have to expose their false doctrine, and some people are misguided, abused by these evil men can leave

[@edsimetz8263]

the next person they go after will be Jesus himself

[@LeavingtheMessage]

If bob jones is the next thing to Jesus for you, friend, you might have your sights set just a bit too low …

[@therecoverytabernacle]

I watched this creepy “sermon” from Cindy Jacobs I believe where she’s talking about Bob Jones giving her a “word” he told her to “ eat a cookie “ 🚨🚨 it was really weird knowing what he did to those girls “ for a word from the Lord”

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Yes, it is!

[@meilingavelino9624]

That was Heidi Baker, another false prophet.

[@bruceedwards3844]

It was Heidi Baker not Cindy Jacobs.