Determination Of Sizing Diameter For Our Cast Bullets

[@TehBr0]

For revolvers intended for 50 yard competition I have found sizing bullets for a slight interference fit through the chamber throats works well. Find the size where you can push the bullet through the throats with light pressure from a pencil, and it's about right.

[@alexm2833]

Make sure that the cylinder throat is bigger than the slug from the barrel or else it will undersize the bullet, then thats a must that you ream them. It happens.

[@GunFunZS]

We frequently find that actual groove diameter of 9mm pistols is .357 or .358 even. I think Lee and the other manuals which I have seen quote this are not actually suggesting you measure a jacketed bullet, but rather to use the nominal dimension from SAAMI or the various case dimensions shown in loading manuals. I've measured 2-3 9mm pistols now that were closer to .358 than.357 so for a while I was aiming for .358 bullets. These shot well, but I foun that they could be difficult to extract manually in some tight chambered pistols. Now I try to cast at @.3565 so that PC ends up with a .3570 bullet.

[@curioushooter]

All my land and groove 9mms slug .355. In fact, .356 Hornady XTPs which have a truncated cone type ogive to full diameter wont chamber if seated out far. Round profile ogives like the Speer Gold Dot and my lead bullets all chamber.

[@generaluriah9569]

Totally agree, cylinder throats should not be used like a PINBALL MACHINE . Thanks for a great video. Every time we inspect a revolver to purchase, we should have a caliper mic in our back pocket.

[@rickRN77]

Do you by chance have a high speed camera to check the rotational velocity of those powder coated bulets compared to non powder coated. Wonder if how the lead grabs the rifling is causing the slightest difference if groups between the two types

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+rickrn2 -- Man, that high speed camera would be nice. I know someone in the video production business, perhaps some day, he'll help me do a video...if I have to pay him, no way I'd do it though. Those cameras are expensive. There is some slow mo in our Ipads, etc. but they are not up to the job... Some have suggested that the PC is allowing the rifling to slip... some of the recent videos have elongated holes, but that's because the rain soaked the targets... Have a great day, FC

[@Johnny-jr2lq]

Okay so I have been thinking about this. And some are saying if you go .2 thousand over cylinder size. Your going to induce extra where on the cylinder of that revolver. Possibly causing accelerated end shake.

[@shotgundrums]

Lots of newer production revolvers have cylinder throats equal to or smaller than barrel groove diameters. It's best to slug both.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+shotgundrums -- I hear that, funny - thinking back, I measure the cylinder throats and go .001-.002 bigger with my cast bullets and if everything shoots well and clean enough, I'm happy. But if my gun did neither, I'd be doing all the slugging, etc - just never have to do all that except with my Virginian Draggoon... Best Regards, FC

[@RoostedFilms]

Thank you for the info. Do you have a video about determining appropriate diameter of or cast powder coated bullets ? Should my powder coated bullets be the same diameter as the factory copper jacketed ammo? Thanks again for your time and all this fantastic info.

[@scottgrizzle5879]

Lee is my favorite brand in reloading products,because they are priced fairly and I think they have good quality products.like with their molds they priced so that if you do somehow tear one up or wear it out you can afford to replace it.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+scott grizzle -- That's a very good point - it's the reason, when my Lee 1 oz or 7/8 oz slug molds suffer breakdown (after 2-4000 slugs) I just order another mold - $20 not worth the hassle to hassle. Someday, I'll just box up all the worn out Lee stuff (like the hand primer that I broke the handle off of) and ship it back to them to see what they'll do about it...they have a policy of refurbishing to new anything they make for 1/2 charge as I recall... Best to ya, FC

[@mytmousemalibu]

A good reason to slug a revolver barrel is to check for choke or restriction. Ruger's are well known to have choke in the area of the barrel threads for example and also not uncommon that the cylinder throats were uneven in size. Ruger only replaces their throating reamers individually instead of in sets so it is easy to get throats that don't all match each other. Smith & Wesson have had their bouts with choked barrels too. Simple overtightening of the barrels most of the time. There has been LOTS of guys on Cast Boolits that have fought accuracy issues in their revolvers because of this. Some guys have gotten away with fire lapping with lighter chokes in cleaning them up but we have a few members that are excellent wheelgun smiths and can take care of that along with throating cylinders, recutting forcing cones, correcting misalignment, etc. They can take a gun that shoots poor or just okay and make it shoot the knots out of a barn door! I still prefer to slug the barrel of every gun I own and cylinder throats so I know exactly what I am working with.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+mytmousemalibu -- That barrel constriction is in the same considerations as chevy6299 above. There was an article written years ago (perhaps by one of the Cast Boolits guys) that talked about taking a Ruger Blackhawk and working it over. After the cylinder throats were uniformed, the action lockup job done, the forcing cone reamed, and the barrel constriction removed, the gun shot one hole groups from the open groups it began with...I wish I saved that article - didn't know that I would be needing it someday... Best Regards to ya -- FC Steve

[@mytmousemalibu]

FortuneCookie45LC Yep! Most guns seem to do fairly well out of the box, once in a while there's one that is a special needs case. Just goes to show, if you really know what to look for and what to do, you can do a little pampering even on the good shooters and improve even more!

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+mytmousemalibu If I ever do a video on the forcing cone, then the barrel - the constriction would have to be a major part of the barrel video - along with what do you do if your barrel has 5 grooves as opposed to having 6. Most really don't worry about the constriction unless everything else is ruled out plus the shooter is able to hold 50 yard x-ring (Gah, I wish I were one of those - one handed, two handed - doesn't matter)...one easy way to gauge constriction is to run a brass brush down a clean barrel - constriction can be felt by the slight increase in friction where the frame is - feel the force, Luke. The factories can't help having some constriction as they do that final torque thing to set the barrels and verticalize the sights - one of the quirky things about revolvers. Best Regards to ya, Chris -- FC Steve

[@robertgull5275]

Always a fan of yours .....this time coming out with a dilemma ..I just purchased a kimber k6s revolver in .357 just to realize that the cylinder throats are .361 of an inch .. How do I cast and resize for such an oversize throats ?..Do you think by double coating (without resizing ) I will prevent leading ? Thanks

[@bruce3818]

Hi fortune cookie my feeling is that since the cylinder throats will size any bullets shot, i find to size at throat works well.

[@mytmousemalibu]

FC Steve, I recall you had a single action (Freedom arms?) that didn't shoot well and tries to smoothbore itself with lead because the cylinder throats were undersize for the bore. That gun could probably be made to drive tacks fairly cheaply. If there is enough material in the cylinder, it could be throated to get the bore diameters right or another option would be to send it to have the barrel rebored/lined. JES rebore does some excellent work and there are a number of excellent pistol smiths on Cast Boolits that do very nice reline jobs for a fair price.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+mytmousemalibu -- That gun is my Virginian Dragoon that has cylinder throats that were way oversized like .435". It actually shot OK with jacketed bullets, but leaded badly with cast. Hard to get bullets to .436 except that powder coating gives us a chance. All the solutions involving opening up cylinder throats would not be a solution here. I need a new cylinder fitted to that gun. Another poster suggest Numrich for a cylinder, but I'm getting good success casting and powder coating larger bullets for my Marlin 1894, the Lee 429 240 RN casts large and PC should get me pretty close - the reloads are shooting OK without leading because of the PC... Have a great day, Chris - FC Steve

[@ron4hunting]

i know this is a old video . first . fc45lc love your channel ! you are very informative . in determining bullet size , what about the ones who say . ' size to the forcing cone diameter ' . ? i have been thinking on getting into casting lately myself . if my mold casts bullets to say . 031 . but i need the bullet to be .032 . will the sizer expand the bullet to .032 ? with the top punch and sizer ? thanks . and keep up the good work ! i started to make videos ,. got 2 up . and cant find the time to do other ones .

[@beverlygolden9893]

Enjoy your videos, thanks for taking the time to create and post them Looking at pistol bullet casting and powder coating for my 44 mag I plan on sizing after PC and have a lee .429 kit so now the question is do I get the 430 kit? If I PC a .429 as cast bullet won't that get me to the proper diameter without sizing? I guess it boils down to final diameter like for 38 spl and mag, I have a 358 sizing kit. Do I PC a 358 cast bullet then size to 359? Thanks a lot for all your efforts

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Don V - I have both the .429 and .430 Lee sizers. My revolvers that have .429 cylinder throats get the .430 sizer. and my .428" throats get the .429 Neither of these sizers produce good accuracy from my micro groove Marlin 1894. For that gun, I need .433" so my solution is to cast 'em and powder coat 'em winding up with .433" then no size and load 'em. With those cast bullets, the 1894 shoots fine. Continued good shootin' to you... FC Steve

[@dalemeade1]

Thanks, you pretty well answered my question about shooting 38 special bullets in a 9mm.

[@jeffsgka]

fc if you where to run your loaded round with a unsized bullet through your lee factory crimp die wont any bulges in the case be taken out in since sizing the bullet. now the other question is what is the size of that bullet after doing that and pulling the bullet to check the size thanks

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+jeffsgka -- That's a great point. Problem with pulling the bullets is that crimps have to be part of the equation. I don't bother to pull bullets to check size because when my Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Dies do their thing, the bulges that would affect functioning are just momentary bulge removals - there is no wholesale resizing going on, and then the crimp happens. If there was some major sizing happening, I would have pulled the bullets. If there was a slight bulge from the seated bullet, interestingly enough, the LCFCD doesn't remove it. Have a great day... FC

[@dougmatthew9987]

Thanks for the great videos. Im new in reloading and needed to know what size bullets to use in 38/357. I want to load both fmj and led. Am I safe using .357 for fmj and .358 for led?

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+Doug Matthew -- Thanks for your question...the answer can be long or short...Is your gun a revolver, a Coonan autoloader, or a lever action rifle - if lever, is it a Marlin Micro Groove barrel? With most of these, the .357" for jacketed bullets would be not only safe, but proper. But lead bullets need to be fitted to the gun, Lee's rule of thumb of .001 over the jacketed bullet diameter is a good starting point. If your .358 bullets shoot accurately and clean, you are good to go. But if accuracy is not good or leading occurs, you will need to measure the chamber throats of your revolvers or slug your auto pistol or rifle barrels. Micro Groove barrels typically need an extra .001 or .002 so those Marlin levers need .359 or even .360 may be needed to get good accuracy. That is one of the reasons Matt's Bullets sells bullets for 38/357 that mike at .359" if you want those, .358" otherwise. The short answer to your question is that .357" jacketed and .358" for lead will probably get you what you want. Best to ya, FC

[@garyK.45ACP]

Well...you obviously have a S&W .45 caliber revolver, but I cannot tell if it is chambered for .45 Colt or .45 ACP, you didn't say and you didn't show the marking on the barrel. (EDIT: I see in a comment below it is a Model 25-5, so .45 Colt) From your measurements I would say it is a .45 Colt. The reason is that the bore diameter you are measuring suggests 5 groove rifling, which cannot be measured properly with a simple calipers. you cannot measure across two grooves as the are not opposite each other. 5 groove rifling is difficult to measure with a caliper and requires a "V-block" of a known value to hold the bullet while it is measured, then subtract the dimension of the V-block. In short: "the juice ain't worth the squeeze" S&W uses 5 groove rifling in .45 Colt (in every revolver I have seen, including 2 Model 25-5 revolvers I own) and 6 groove rifling in .45 ACP chambered revolvers. Why? 🤷‍♂ I use cast bullets in my revolvers (and autoloaders) extensively. I go with the ".001 over chamber throat" on my .45 Colt chambered revolvers. In fact that's a good method in any caliber in any revolver and much easier than slugging the bore. If the chamber throats are larger than the bore diameter, the bullets will "bump up" to that diameter as they exit the cylinder and then be swaged down to bore diameter by the forcing cone. No need to make them be "sized up" and then swaged back down. All that said...you won't go wrong sizing .001" over the diameter of jacketed bullets either.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

I think the main problem we have is that manufacturers do not abide by the SAAMI rules, most Colt45 calibre barrels are bored and rifled to the 45 Auto dimensions, which are different by .005" (I think), just look on Wiki and check the SAAMI specification ,The 1 thou over size is for groove size, not chamber bore.

[@garyK.45ACP]

Used to be. .454 for .45 Colt and .451 for .45 ACP (nominal) Not any more. Since about WW2 all manufacturers I am aware of use the same bore diameter for .45 Colt and .45 ACP Older Colts will have .454" groove diameter. Not really a problem with cast bullets as the bullets will "bump up" on firing.

[@KJ-qr9sm]

I know 45 colt and 45 schofield are .452 im not sure about 45 acp though.

[@garyK.45ACP]

@@KJ-qr9sm Actually...the .45 Colt, prior to WW2, used a .454" diameter bullet, as did the .45 Schofield. After WW2 SAMMI standardized on .452" (which the .45 ACP had always been) as the standard for .45 caliber handguns. Some older Colts and S&W handguns (pre-war) have .454" bores and cylinder throats. They usually still work well with cast lead bullets. Or cast bullets can be sized to .454" or left un-sized, depending on what a particular mold/alloy combination produces.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@KJ-qr9sm Yes they are now, but the SAMI spec called for .454" for Colt 45, and .452" for ACP, I think the manufacturers have rounded up the barrel machining to the later caliber to standardise, if you measure an early made Colt 45 you will find it at .454" but later ones appear to be .452", the chambers seem to be all over the place! Chris B.

[@ldale1658]

Good stuff 👏 👍

[@sd3gunner]

what about say a pre 64 win. 30-30 lever?

[@taps_1021]

does that also apply with power coating

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Danny Tapia - With powder coated bullets, the same rules apply - however, if we are off a bit on the small side, the PC can save our bacon. Best to not be on the small side though... .001-.002 bigger than cylinder throats on our revolvers or .001 - .002 bigger than bore diameter of our autopistols and rifles is what we want. Good castin' to ya, FC

[@jimv.661]

Machinist plugs are better for measuring the throats.

[@148DMC]

very interesting thanks for another great video

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+148DMC Thanks for taking the time to post your comment... Best to ya, FC

[@krossF]

As always, the devil is in the details. I've found no need to slug a revolver barrel or throats unless you're getting leading, or your brand of revolver is known for tight throats, bigger barrels (colts). Working your way backwards by slugging all these dimensions is the best way to find out what's going on, including checking for a ring in the barrel where the barrel was fixed to the frame, this often leads to pretty bad leading and needs to be either sent back to the factory or firelapped. However, Lee's sizing recommendation doesn't work for 9mm, as the vast majority of manufacturers make different barrel diameters ranging from .356(glock aftermarket barrels) to .358(berettas), mine being .357(glock factory). The lee sizing dies work very well, however, and I used them long before I bought a Lube a Matic 2. Sorry however, I cannot endorse Lee products or speak for their quality control. I had many many problems with my 9mm mold, including bullet diameter (would drop .362 to .355" bullets) to their customer service telling me this was "in spec" and "no need to size bullets" quickly became "buy the lee sizing die, your mold is in spec." Okay, I bought the sizing die, but some bullets were so large that the tumble lube grooves would dissapear almost entirely, while some bullets fell right out of the die! After a second call talking over the phone about the huge range of sizes dropped from the mold, he suggested I could ship it to them on my own dime, but let me know in no uncertain terms, they would send it right back as "in spec" and we would both be wasting each others time. Sorry for the rant, I try to bite my tongue every time I hear praise for Lee, but my experience with their products does not mirror yours, and their customer service department has been rude, condescending, and lack real casting or reloading knowledge.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+superswaglord1945 -- Thank you for your thoughtful well presented comments... Interesting in that my current 9mm mold from Lee (6 cav 356-124 TL TC) is casting nicely for me. I haven't casted much for my 9s in the past because I shot a lot of Winchester White Box - cheap enough. Plus I had purchased a lot of commercial cast 147 grainers moly coated from my steel shooting days - still have a few boxes of them left. Used to shoot a lot of 9mm, but since the steel shooting days, not as much. So I haven't had to deal with slugging all my 9mm barrels - like you say - unless we are getting bad accuracy and/or leading, no need. My 9s shoot just fine. But do match my bullets to my revolvers. Sorry to hear of your bad experience with Lee. Sure, I have had some problems like a 6 cav that has a bad cavity (I just skip that one), but overall, been lucky. Of all the companies, Dillon has had the best service, but I've used their machines so much, there have been issues - too many to list, but they fixed every one pronto - no questions asked even when I was trying to explain... You're not ranting, some day, I hope to have an issue with Lee so I can see what you are talking about. And of course, Lee's price points sometimes get us to think about the quality we're getting. Lately with the powder coating stuff, I've been on a Lee kick so we'll have to go into other directions at some point... Have a great day, FC

[@davealthoff1712]

Hi folks, not getting any of my gun video's coming through!!! Could someone please tell me what is going on??? Really need some help here as their are my enjoyment watching you folks!!!! HELP!!! Thank you very much!! Dave

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+dave althoff -- Good to hear from you, Dave - Sorry you are having troubles with your computer - and I hope someone can help... FC

[@curioushooter]

Also, you are dealing with a S&W which are usually of good quality. Some Rugers and lesser brands the throats aren't even the same diameter. Some of those Italian repro single actions have wildly different throat diameters that venture far from standard recommendations. A pin gauge set is necessary with those if you want to know what you are doing. I size all my revolvers' bullets to .357. If it doesn't shoot well then I sell it. Life is too short to be messing around with sizer dies all the time.

[@jakobmatiwos5289]

inch or millimeter??? 0451 what man

[@PedroRSevilla]

Great, I'd got a 9mm Czopen 9 mm, and I size the bullets at 0.3565 a few leads bullets fitted at 0.357, with system sizing lee!!!

[@samp1394]

Why do you think that factory bullet is correct ? Check a few of them.

[@FatManLeather]

That makes life a little easier.

[@rapidrrobert4333]

Nice 29 FC.

[@lfeco]

25

[@purplepilled6478]

lovely model 29

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+Marmar44 Magnum -- Actually, model 25-5 - N frames always look like M29s though at first glance... Have a great day, FC

[@purplepilled6478]

She's beautiful

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

+Marmar44 Magnum -- Thanks, but she is like the Siren from the Lake - she beckons you to come close and swoon a bit, then she kicks the daylights out of you...and you're smilin' the whole time... Best Regards, FC

[@purplepilled6478]

O I know I got a model 29-2 in a four inch barrel

[@purplepilled6478]

And she pounds ya

[@SanitiveRevolution]

TURN UP YOUR VOLUME. FK.