Are Short Scale Basses DEAD?!

So which is better - a long scale or a short scale bass guitar? If you’ve ever wondered which is the right scale length for you, you’ve come to the right place! In today’s episode, we’re taking a closer look at the key differences between short-scale and long-scale basses, the pros and cons of each, and we’ll give you a few recommendations of short-scale basses to check out for yourself.
In this episode
What is a short scale bass?
Who plays one?
Which is better, short-scale or long-scale?
How does the scale length affect the sound?
What short-scale basses does Ian recommend?
And much, much more!
===
Video Breakdown:
00:00 - Introduction
02:16 - What Is a Short Scale Bass?
05:52 - Mustang & Musicmaster - The Differences
09:20 - Paul McCartney
13:58 - Jack Bruce
21:43 - Justin Meldal-Johnsen
27:00 - Mike Kerr
29:40 - Rob Mullarkey
31:58 - Glen Campbell
34:00 - The Pros of Short Scale Basses
39:00 - The Cons of Short Scale Basses
45:00 - ’67 Hofner Club
46:36 - Fender Mustang
47:43 - Guild Starfire
50:30 - Nordstrand Acinonyx Cat Bass
53:00 - Wilcock Mullarkey
54:20 - Fender Bass VI
57:40 - What Should We Cover Next?
===
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[@jensbomholt4529]

The comments seem to indicate that short scale basses are not only alive and kicking, but well loved for their many advantages. Please, Scott, make another video with the title: "Are Long Scale Bass Players SNOBS?" And a blind-test comparisons, Scott, please: "Whas this played on a long scale bass or a short scale bass?" - complete with ratings from 1 to 10.

[@mehAudio]

Retract and repent 😂

[@tiltil9442]

The comments display a certain "culture" of being offended, too. I absolutely agree on the blind-test format - bring it, guys!

[@C0urne]

And not a solo bass track but in a mix with bass tracks played with different instruments. Nobody cares about solo bass other than a small number of bass players.

[@jensbomholt4529]

@@C0urne Right: and let the same player play the same short piece with his band, several times, switching basses. Or not switching basses and using the "Leland Sklar switch trick" to change the sound. Also - instead of switching instruments, switch from two fingers to one finger to thumb to pick. Or let several wellknown bass KZbinrs play both with their most hated and their most loved instruments to the same backing track. Would be highly entertaining to watch a bunch of "gear snobs" as they listen to such a blind test and try to find out what was what.

[@cacadordorio]

Only indie chicks plays short scale too look good

[@andrewgrant1982]

I’m a small guy in a wheelchair, so I prefer the size of short scale basses, particularly for the body size, I recently bought myself a Gretsch G2220 Electromatic Junior Jet Bass II, and it’s the best bass I’ve ever played

[@rome8180]

They also just sound different. They have a cool tone you can't get out of a long scale.

[@jasonharris2291]

I picked up a Junior Jet at a pawn shop and pulled the frets to make a fretless. It's unique and very fast playing.

[@kristopher0815]

Have one too. bridge pickup only and plucking close to the neck you can really make it growl. 😎

[@jeg1972]

I've got a G2220 as well and I love them with flats on.

[@SO-ym3zs]

Of all my basses (various scales and manufacturers), that's the one I love and play the most. Awesome bass!

[@KeithCollyer]

Let's face it, hatred of short-scale basses is nothing other than snobbishness. A short-scale on me looks bigger than a standard scale Ricky on Chris Squire

[@tiltil9442]

Let's face it: No. And about your looks: not looking :)

[@mal2ksc]

If there was a "Don't recommend this channel for the next two weeks" button, I'd be using it right now.

[@DruEllz]

How about hatred of short-scale basses is just hatred of short-scale basses? Or are you saying that anyone who doesn't like exactly what you like is a snob? Bizarre choice of word, btw.

[@KeithCollyer]

@@DruEllz If Leo Fender's first bass had been 30" scale, you would have people saying 34" basses look wrong. It's OK not to like something, but have a reason other than it's not what I'm used to. I like 30" and 34", my 5-string is 35".

[@jamesmelton7637]

The dislike is based on the sound. They don't sound the same. All the short scale players say this "the sound is so cool". Well a lot of us full scale players are saying "nope that sound is not cool, but dude you do you."

[@darwinsaye]

Ugh. Judging by the first couple of minutes of the video, I’d say your take on this topic this isn’t going to be very well received. Shorter scale isn’t about “small people”. And it’s not about how cool you look on stage with a standard length bass (I’ve seen a couple of killer New Orleans bassists who happen to have huge hulking stature, and thus they absolutely dwarf the *full scale* basses in their hands - and ain’t nobody going to tell them they don’t look cool). Short scale has a different sound. The fundamental is more audibly pronounced. As bass players you should know about this. Anyway, I’ll continue the video now, but I’m telling ya, if this is the actual angle you’re going with, the comments section is going to be rough.

[@nickd.6365]

+1.... This video came across as ill informed, scant on background research & quite naive. It was also far from being objective. Maybe it was rushed out to get the clicks?

[@robertp457]

Scott was making fun of Ian who's a very tall man who loves playing short scale basses, Scott wasn't making fun of short scale basses or anyone, else, who plays them.

[@rome8180]

Isn't it just the opposite? I've noticed that short scale basses have become MORE trendy in recent years, not LESS. And it's not for the ease of play. It's for the sound.

[@studiodsr]

Very true but mostly in the indie / alternative world. Less so apart from that

[@dragostego]

They've been trendy for like 8 years, they are likely going to be less in style in the coming years, they are approaching a decade of being hip.

[@rome8180]

@@studiodsr That's true. But A LOT of session players use them regularly now, and not just for indie tracks. They use them for a certain vintage vibe but with a little more character than your standard P bass.

[@PjRjHj]

The short scale trend has been around for over a decade

[@spacedaddy5517]

It's nboth, they sound different too.

[@eerbrev]

I play upright bass as my main gig. When it comes to my electric bass, I have nothing to prove to anyone, and I have a blast playing my little short scale squier jaguar bass. Baby's got some THUMP.

[@BackToTheBlues]

The bass player in the band I'm in turned up at our most recent gig with his stand up string bass, his Epiphone acoustic bass (which is rather lovely - it looks like an acoustic guitar), his Gretsch short scale, and his Ashbory mega-short bass - the one with the rubber strings, and they all got a look-in. I'm the guitarist - I'm supposed to be the one with the rack of instruments!

[@WilDBeestMF]

​@@BackToTheBluesAs a fellow bass guy with all the gear (2-3 basses, 10 pedal board, rack all come to every gig), some of us are coming for ya. 😆

[@BackToTheBlues]

@@WilDBeestMF 😄😄😄

[@angelotro]

From a player's perspective, I think short-scale acoustic bass guitars sound better than full-scale. There's a little more pinpoint mid-range that sticks out, while full-scale loses some tone into the air. Not sure if this is the case to someone listening, or how they record, but just from the player's perspective.

[@jamesmelton7637]

yea it's all thump is the problem. :) But if you just want to thump then yes it's the right bass.

[@neakapla]

I wish I went short scale sooner. So much more comfortable to play. I have back issues and occasional pins and needles in my left hand due to a bad back. I won't let ego punish my body unnecessarily.

[@jonathanchaney6140]

Ibanez has a headless 4 string called ehb1000s. Its under 7 pounds a lot of the time

[@michelleinwi6919]

Wow I’m surprised by the negative judgement at the beginning of this. For a bass informational and “appreciation” channel. Sorta bummed by it. I have and play short scale AND full scale. They have their pros and cons. I know they got to that, but just surprised Scott would be so down on them and the people that play them.

[@C0urne]

It's not a surprise. These are the guys that make endless videos on P- and J-basses as they were the only proper instruments. Plus the other guy not Scott likes a Thunderbird because of its design flaws.

[@holliefitzzz]

a long scale can also look ridic on the wrong person looks like someones picking fruit out the tree

[@holliefitzzz]

was just a bit sexist at times this video even if indirectly

[@C0urne]

@@holliefitzzz I'd say it's better to ignore the instrument to person proportions.

[@robertp457]

I don't know why people didn't get that Scott was just making fun of Ian, because Ian is very tall and has and plays many short scale basses. It had nothing to do with making fun of anyone else who plays short scale basses or short scale basses at all.

[@scotteagles4864]

Long live the short scale! Reports of its death are highly exaggerated.

[@Bornie1977]

I got my left wrist broken 2 years ago and, while recovering from the injury, I bought a great Marcus Miller Sire U5 short scale bass because the pain when playing my old reliable Fender Jazz Bass was terrible, and with a short scale bass I could play almost perfectly. The sound was extremely good and, even today, I use it almost every day! :-D

[@guitfidle]

I did that with a u-bass after I had shoulder surgery

[@RainerH.-nz9ez]

Short scale basses are not crappy. I think scott doesn't know much about them cause he hates them really a lot. I began playing in the early seventies with a mustang. I loved it since the neck died and there was no replacement neck to get from fender. There are some boutique shotrs out there here in germany for really high price. And I own a sire u 5 short made active by myself and it sounds awsome. Just cool down and listen to it. And the look is not the important thing about a bass. So more objektive looking on the shorts and less prejudices and superficialities please.

[@TinoR626]

I just picked up a bass VI and it's been super fun sure it's a short scale at 30 but now I'm looking to add another short scale as they are neat.

[@Jonathan_Camps]

I decided to go with a Fender Mustang short scale for my first real bass and I couldn’t be happier

[@StratsRUs]

They are great ! I have had a Japanese one for a long time

[@kuramobay2445]

I don't know of any records Scott has played on 😝😝😝 but I bet almost evrybody knows a record made by short scalers such as Paul McCartney, Bill Wyman and Jack Bruce.

[@geraldfriend256]

Yep and Tina Weymouth and Stanley Clarke,Allen Woody, Mike Kerr, Mike Watt, Death From Above. Et Cetera

[@andreedipo6356]

@@geraldfriend256 Mike Watt!

[@BayouMaccabee]

​@andreedipo6356 Yes, the spiel-meister himself. I listened to tbe entire fIREHOSE catalog again a few days ago...fantastic!

[@caesarflickerman9880]

Apparently they’re “losers”….pffft time to find another bass channel.

[@rkharper]

9 shortscale basses here. No toys, for me, there's absolutely no reason to play longscales anymore, allthough I own some pretty good ones too.

[@StevenDoyleLuke]

9 for me too!

[@davida.v.wilson5629]

Scott's opening comment about big people playing a short scale bass could be considered highly insulting. I have sustained serious injuries in both shoulders. Reaching out to even tune a 34" (or more) bass is just not possible. Frankly, I have found it more possible to play a 32" headless bass because of damage limiting my reach. Reaching down to the butt of the bass to tune works well for me. Oh, I'm 5'10" and 220 pounds, definitely not small.

[@mattcheckleybass]

Offence is something you choose to create, it is not given to you.

[@tiltil9442]

Scott didn't make a statement about injuries, really. Listen like a musician. Closely.

[@flamingdog76]

@@mattcheckleybass absolute bullshit

[@mynvision]

Without short scale basses, I would not being able to play bass at all. Short woman, small hands, short arms, first bass I ever tried was someone's Fender Precision back in the 90s, and I had such a hard time with it, I gave up, as my arm literally could not reach to play the furthest frets full stretched. Probably should have adjusted the strap, but didn't know to do it at the time. I had, at the time, already took a year of guitar classes, so I knew a bit of something, and was not a complete instrument newbie. My hubby, who is a bass player who is 5' 11" and not small, and has played in a few local bands, owns and plays a Gibson SG, as well as several other "normal" basses, but I started out on those baby basses, Ibanez Mikro, then Gretsch Duo Jet, then finally the Sterling Stingray short scale, and now I also play that Gibson. We used to have the Fender Mustang (this was before I played it), but hubby says he thinks the Sterling Stingray is better (he does own a EB Stingray 5-string himself). All told, the sound on many of those basses are quite nice, maybe not on par with the top regular scale basses, but good enough to be even better than some.

[@krisbullock]

Music Man makes an amazing short scale Stingray with passive pickups that is as nice as any bass I've ever played.

[@garyjenkins9169]

My only bass, and I love it.

[@latonyahemingway3752]

I have the active Tim Cummerford and a passive ….. these basses are fabulous !!

[@bassistdc]

Those guys were so silly I stopped watching and went to the comments. I bought the Fiesta red ss stingray with the roasted maple neck and love it. I also bought a great 32" scale bass by Offbeat guitars and sold my 34" scale basses.

[@AlkanetEXE]

I'm not a fan of the Mustang design but I love a Stingray and hadn't heard of this! Thanks for mentioning!

[@dieg000n]

Do Music Man still offer this short scale Stingray? I only saw sterling version on Reverb, but not the EBMM

[@Tracer9GTRider8]

I'm 5' 11" and normal size hands. I play only a short scale. My Fender Squire Jaguar is affordable, playable, and sounds great!

[@18JR78]

👌🏽

[@Joe.Copalman]

Ha! Same height and hand size and I got a Squier Jaguar 32" bass last year. Haven't touched my P-Bass since.

[@Tracer9GTRider8]

@@Joe.Copalman awesome! I had a different one (same model) that the previous owner had customized and upgraded. The current one was a few lbs lighter so I swapped out all the customization and ended up with a silver bass that is just a hair under 8 lbs 😂

[@SO-ym3zs]

Tall with long arms and fingers here, and I spend way more time playing my short scales. 34" generally feels needlessly cumbersome and awkward by comparison.

[@jessicasturgis5991]

I am a new bass player (less than 3yrs in - coming from guitar), & I wonder how my Ibanez Mikro compares to the Jaguar. I’ve never even played a full size bass yet (I’m 5’1…under 100lbs 😂) but I’m sure it will be an experience to play what these guys here call a “real bass” some day. 🤭😂 *I’m less than 10 mins in & wondering if this whole thing is just an hour long video of these dudes bashing short scale basses & players. 🥱🙃😂

[@peterfawns1377]

Scott did a great job of kind of making fun of people that want to play a smaller bass because it's more comfortable for.them...duh! Maybe time to take a course on not potentially turning off a group of potential customers.

[@armbarre]

This is the only sbl video I’ve seen that I think is dumb. And I watch sbl ALL the time.

[@armbarre]

In case that seemed defensive, I don’t even play short scale basses. I’m a cheap p-bass knockoff lover. But come on; they have a sound, they look great, they’re on records you probably love.

[@levonsstuff3839]

So are we just gonna forget about Stanley Clark?

[@d3lt452]

They would have needed to buy an Alembic. Not gonna happen

[@guzzialfa]

They have sucked the F out of Leo for so long they can't afford (Scott's words) an Alembic. Stanley plays short scale. The Brown Bass was his when his was stolen. His signature model is based on its size and shape.

[@callingchristiano]

Is he really an important player ?!?? Don't think so ...

[@WillXPower99]

@@callingchristiano are u joking??

[@callingchristiano]

@@WillXPower99 yes !! I love his work on Romantic Warrior

[@ThePalestinians8myCat]

I’ve one huge issue with this video. They fixate on the retro short scale and at one point it is said that there’s no modern active short scales. Spector has the bantam, which is active. Warwick has an active short scale corvette and there’s the stingray short. Though the stingrays not active, it does sound close to a regular stingray. I feel that they have misled the viewer, maybe through bias but there is definitely a more modern option if you’re looking for a short scale.

[@roryhensen]

Thom Yorke has been rocking short scales with The Smile for the last few years.

[@jschaetz]

Thom Yorke is one of my idols, I got a PJ Mustang short scale this year and love it (I'm a 5'6" woman with small hands, it's been nice to learn on something I can maneuver more easily than my bf's full-scale bass I was learning on prior). This vid was such a bummer to hear from these dudes I look up to so much. They should definitely do a blind test, if they're gonna be snobby about it 😵‍💫

[@virgilrytaar9083]

This is the 1st of your videos that I've disagreed about almost everything. 2 men that share a face and know very little about the Beatles. I'll continue to search for the upper 'horn' on my violin bass so I can attach the sticker that came with my Fender Bassman

[@felixgrimm408]

How on earth can you talk about short scale basses and not name: Mike Watt, Tina Weymouth or Lonnie Marshall?

[@zippy8442]

kim gordon

[@thomas79marshall]

​@@zippy8442I've never seen Kim Gordon play a short scale bass.

[@zippy8442]

@@thomas79marshall musicmaster & ebo

[@thomas79marshall]

@@zippy8442 Kim Gordon is more associated with a Gibson Thunderbird definitely.

[@LCA1985]

Hello? Or Stanley Clarke? Or Evan Marien?

[@M2Mil7er]

Jack Bruce has chops, but I think the best thing about him is his ear, and composing skills. He made a huge impression on a lot of musos due to Cream being really heavy for the time, but his solo work is where he really shines. Some recommended tracks for Scott, or anyone who wants to check him out: Childsong, Jet Set Jewel, Mickey The Fiddler, The Best Is Still To Come, Never Tell Your Mother She's Out Of Tune, Morning Story, Folk Song, Pieces of Mind, Keep It Down, Without A Word, and How's Tricks. Some of my faves anyway. Hope you enjoy!

[@timclarke1032]

I've been battling carpal tunnel issues for years and I find that I can play longer without pain on a short scale. I think the lower string tension makes a big difference. I've even tried the ukulele basses, but find the nylon strings annoying. My Mustang with P/J pickups is my go-to.

[@SO-ym3zs]

I can't count the number of people I've heard who find relief from physical problems by switching to a short scale: shoulder/neck issues, arthritis, etc. It's hardly the only thing short scales have going, but if they help alleviate/prevent/or avoid physical problems while playing, that's definitely a huge plus.

[@user-wp4cs6eg8q]

The thump of a Mustang with flats and a pick is unfuckwithable. And the deep drone of an EB-O neck pickup produce vibrations that break down the contents of your bowels aiding in digestion.

[@SO-ym3zs]

Love it! That's ad copy that would actually get me to buy something!

[@jschaetz]

Got a PJ Mustang this year, been playing on flats and LOVE it. It's perfect for what I need. Surprisingly snobby takes from this channel I usually love

[@SO-ym3zs]

@@jschaetz This channel has its hits and misses like any, but for the most part has been steadily increasing in quality. But this episode was just a huge misstep from them. Any time you're going discuss or review something, it should be fair and take the subject on its own merits, and here it just felt like snobbery, mockery, lame attempts at humor, and lazy dismissivenes.

[@user-wp4cs6eg8q]

@@jschaetz I think they were taking the good cop bad cop approach, I think Scott is very aware that the point of view he portrayed is shared by a percentage of bass players.

[@thefieldgeneral17]

Really surprised by Scott's take on this, almost kind of disappointing. Been waiting for a really awesome short scale video being as I just got back into bass playing again partly because of the smaller scale, and I'm not a smaller sized person.

[@DjCzubaka]

a lot of big guys play electric guitars as well, and they're as big as a short scale basses. I don't think anyone ridicules guitar players for playing 'smaller' instruments

[@SO-ym3zs]

Yeah, he definitely loses a lot of points here.

[@MC-qe5qb]

@@SO-ym3zs agreed. As a owner of two, I am disappointed

[@FromTheMosh]

It was a great vid on short scales on my opinion....at least Scott is honest about his opinion, he does like to tease but that's just how British people are haha. Gotta remember everyone has different taste.

[@SO-ym3zs]

@@FromTheMosh I think it would have been a lot more helpful and interesting if he had tried to be less humorous/jokey/mean and more objective for those who seeking useful info. You can dislike something and still make an effort to discuss it intelligently, factually, and objectively. And if you can't, recuse yourself and let the other guy handle the video solo.

[@GrayShadow13]

No way. A lot of bassists I know gig with short scales, and I have a short scale p bass, and a Guild Starfire II which is 31.5" I think.

[@samthebarber93]

I have an old starfire II also and the thing is an absolute low-down, dirty whore of a bass. It does soul, RnB and funk so good! My ears are salivating at thought of spanking the old girl Scrumptious!

[@TinoR626]

I've been looking for a pbass Jr.

[@christopherbond4786]

That godamn hofner sounds like actual magic every time Ian pulls it out. It might not be versatile, but that is still my favorite bass sound period.

[@joycerichardson1810]

I have a Hofner 1962 reissue (German built) and the woody tone is magical. Strung eith Pyramid flats.

[@EliezerGenX1975]

Love the sound of the Hofner.

[@havespacesuitwilltravel9607]

I think you guys missed a MAJOR pro of short scale basses. Here it is. You can have the best gear in the world, but if your performance sucks then you sound bad. It isn't the gear, it's the performance that counts. If an instrument is easier to play, then your performance is better. Short scale for the win.

[@mattster693]

I find long scales easier to play sometimes because the extra tension on the strings makes them respond quicker for faster finger style playing, but not always

[@reelchef67]

@@mattster693 it is easy to put on higher tensions strings to get rid of floppy strings ie labella dtf's or ghs balanced nickels.

[@mattster693]

@@reelchef67 I could try that, but I don’t really find the long scale a hinderance of any sort playability or sound wise tbh, the moor tubby sound a short scale makes just doesn’t sound as good with my aggressive right hand technique making notes sharp at the transients, at least not thru a bass amp where the low end is more revealing, but if all I really needed was heaps of high bass and low mids to cut in a mellow context I’d try it

[@simaojoseph]

It definitely is THE reason I advocate for short scales. One can manage to get pretty much any sound he/she wants with all the string and pickup options available nowadays.

[@ArleyMcBlain]

Lots of Vulfpeck recorded on a super-shortscale 28" mini Pbass (eg. Birds of a Feather, Running Away, My First Car, a lot of Sauna). My son has the Squier version and it's truly incredible, sounds and feels better than a lot of much more expensive instruments, go figure.

[@alexanderednie1205]

Jack Bruce played with Tony Williams. Get with the program Scott !

[@sambedingfield784]

Jmj (for me and my generation) taught me that if you just own it, own your thing whatever it is, you can MAKE it cool.

[@jesserobinson20]

I started playing short scale when my shoulders began to really fail me. I play a Sire U5. I also use a Boss OC-5 to add just a touch of up octave. I really enjoy the tone.

[@stevebarnes7353]

I must admit that this episode left me a bit bummed. I've been hoping and waiting for an episode on short scale basses from you guys, and this was such a let down. It's a bit disheartening that you'll spend almost 2 hours talking about boutique bass companies yet when it comes to short scale basses you treat them like a joke, or something "less than." Thumbs down on this one, gentlemen.

[@jeffreyskiffle5053]

Totally disheartening. I feel like I just had a “don’t meet your heroes” experience.

[@b1bout2jam3]

I have been playing for 20+ years and have played short scales exclusively for the past 10. I play reggae bass, so this channel has a little to nothing for me by way of my preferred genre, but I’m even less of a fan now.

[@wpkg]

have to agree. a few years back he was singing the praises of the supro short scale bass and how cool it was and now he says they all suck?

[@ExoticTurtle3]

So it's all good when they say stuff you agree with or maybe make fun of something else in the bass world you don't like but now when it's something you enjoy personally it can't be funny anymore and these guys don't have good opinions? Guys it's a fucking youtube video of two guys having fun with and at short scale basses. Please have any sort of rationality here. They are as entitled to their opinions as you are to yours. Instead of just assuming that Scott's opinions are arbitrary, maybe try actually listening to his reasons instead of just writing the whole video off because he made some jokes that somehow managed to offend you based on the scale length of your instruments.

[@stevebarnes7353]

@@ExoticTurtle3 Oh, not at all. Scott is indeed entitled to his opinions. I was merely commenting that i was hoping for an episode on short scales that was a bit more in depth than what we got.

[@seeker7774]

I started out on guitar. I picked up the bass because the church needed a bassist and the bassist for my brother’s trio moved out of state. After that I played the bass exclusively for about six or seven years. Time passes and needs change. For the past five years I’ve played mainly guitar. Several weeks ago I was asked to fill in on bass. While practicing, I found I was having issues fretting cleanly and my hand hurt. I knew that with time I would get used to “the stretch” again, but I didn’t have the time. I found a used short scale hollow body at a local shop that hits like a sledgehammer and plays like a dream. That short scale saved my bacon and reignited my love of playing bass.

[@willywayne5299]

Same here,guitar first,but the bands need a bassist so I switched to the world of bass,if U want to gig,do what is needed!

[@BarefacedAudio]

Shortscale basses are really misunderstood! They don’t work for what I need 99% of the time but they definitely have a place - they sound different and play different. You can get a good idea of what a shortscale is like by tuning your 34” bass down by a whole step (2 semitones), putting a capo on the 2nd fret and playing everything two frets higher. That pushes the pickups a bit more neckwards (so even bassier / less bright) but it’s still a really good way to hear how the scale length changes the envelope of all the harmonics within the note.

[@xiancode3682]

Rumored for the next NAMM - Fander Monster Mega King Kömpenzætör Gigantor Bass. Body: old growth redwood stump cross sections, lightly rasped, not sanded. Neck: reclaimed telephone poles, half sawn, unfinished, with original, relic, creosote still present. Low E string: actual reworked suspension bridge cable. Frets: 30d nails. 84" scale. 154lbs (without strings). Tuners: Repurposed Nautical Winches. 12 HammerBucker pickups. 44 strings play subsonically.

[@SO-ym3zs]

Guaranteed to help anyone's shaky self esteem, provided they can lift it!

[@TheMahaffeymg]

I just got a JMJ and it's quickly becoming my go-to bass.

[@GogOtHeCaT15]

Same, got a JMJ as I'm coming from a guitar back ground and it's been a really fun bass to play with. It just needed a set up because out of the box the intonation and string hight was off

[@mehAudio]

It‘s on my shortlist. Just has more oomph than the more precise 34“.

[@jschaetz]

Just got a PJ Mustang, I love it so far!

[@charleskilo4383]

A fun hack, if you detune a standard scale length bass a whole step and then capo at the 2nd fret, you end up back at standard tuning and are very close to a 30" scale length for the more compact fret spacing but you can use whatever bass you want. I've been using a Mustang as my main bass for about a year now and while I love the shorter spacing between frets and the comfortable reach everywhere on the neck, what's actually been a real annoyance is finding strings that fit right for the short scale length. I've tried several different brands who offer specific short scale string sets and it's really hit or miss if the taper at the end of the strings will actually line up properly and I usually end up having to unwind it myself to get the strings to work, mostly the low E. That tends to result in less than ideal tuning stability which I wasn't expecting before the purchase.

[@joycerichardson1810]

Try LaBella Deep-Talking flats specifically for Mustang short scales.

[@roughpuppies1690]

This is an awesome trick I just discovered the other day! It's a great way to see what a short scale would sound like with no other variables changed. When I did it to my bass, it sounded great and played way easier, slapped easier too because the strings were more slack. It made me really want to get a short scale bass. Personally I think my slap bass sounded way better when I made the scale shorter, at least on my bass.

[@siliconcarne2598]

It really depends what kind of Mustang you're playing. If it's a string-thru-body like the JMJ, MIJs or vintage models you should pick medium scale strings - personally I like flats and use LaBella 760F-MUS and Thomastik-Infeld JF-324 on my Mustangs. With non-string-thru-body models you should be good to go with short scale strings.

[@B0BHW]

Stanley Clarke. He plays a short scale bass. An Alembic short scale. And I don't think he looks stupid. As for the sheer tone and style of playing he gets out of that thing...

[@MrJesterfx]

I think it is kind of funny, that someone could think, that going with shorter scale you would loose "bass" from your sound. But it is actually opposite. You would loose clarity and high end definition. For me it turned out, that this is what I need. JMJ Mustang with flats is what I need for my music. And since I did not play a bass for 6 months before buying one, there is no weird feeling. Sure, if you play 34 scale every day for 15 years, it short scale could feel weird.

[@jsiminski]

EB-0 has a Mudbucker pickup in neck position alone. EB-3 has the bridge mini humbucker as well.

[@juanjreyes4230]

Also, the eb0 is a short scale, eb3 is a full scale

[@ChristopheArribat]

@@juanjreyes4230 No ; there was a long-scale version of the EB-3 called the EB-3L but they didn't sell well and are very rare.

[@rkharper]

Scott couldn't be any wronger with his cons. Seriously.... They don't feel crap, they don't sound only tubby, there are modern active shorties (Alembic, Ibanez, etc).... And they fucking don't look stupid. Get of your high horse, will ya?

[@jasondorsey7110]

The P-bass Mafia

[@anthonyf4439]

30” scale basses do indeed “feel crap” and “sound tubby”. Lol

[@YTPartyTonight]

Holger Czukay, Richard Hell, Wyman, Weymouth-Mustang players. I see a lot of fellow Watt fans here.

[@takoholic]

Yes I’m 5’2 ft (157cm) and I’m thankful we have short scale basses. I has made it so easier for me to play and better for my hands.

[@daynmitchell7543]

I’ve been playing bass for like 20 years. I’m decent but nothing special I just enjoy playing. I’ve recently fell in love with short scale basses! I have a squire rascal now I’m getting a sire u5 next. I may switch my entire setup to short scale. And I’m 6’3 300 pound gentleman. Do I look a little funny…yes lol. But it feels good and that’s all that matters!

[@Davey-Boyd]

I have a Squire Rascal, it's my current fave bass. And size wise it's huge for a short scale!

[@daynmitchell7543]

@@Davey-Boyd the fedax guys walked across my box so I did need to setup my rascal a little bit. But after that a great bass with a super fat sound! And yes I’m shock by the size, it won’t even fit into most of my cases

[@GARBAGEDAY2113]

Surprised Tina Weymouth didn't make the top 5.5 list!

[@GrandadTinkerer]

Nice pin up, pretty basic player though.

[@mynvision]

​@@GrandadTinkerer Wow. There are a lot of bass players out there who, in their "basic" playing, have, along with the drummers, really made the solid core of the band. You can't have a good band with just flashy riffs, or a singer with a strong personality, no matter how good they are. It's fair to say if someone is basic player or not, if that is your opinion, but there is an additional dismissive and grossly sexist layer when you lead with the whole ""nice pin up" comment. Guys don't get crap like that when their skills are being criticized.

[@YTPartyTonight]

@@GrandadTinkerer Bullocks.

[@Icecream_ghost]

@@GrandadTinkerer Tina is a bad ass, her “basic” playing helped define two amazing bands with countless hits. Being unnecessarily complex and overplaying is for wankers.

[@SO-ym3zs]

@@Icecream_ghost Amen. Kim Deal of the Pixies is similar: even simpler lines than Weymouth, but they help define the sound of an original, super-influential rock band. Crazy chops are for lead guitarists (he says only half in jest).

[@johngpendleton]

You missed the Danelectro Longhorn -- unique, classic sound from those lipstick tubes.

[@6zippo0]

Close minded nonsense based on vanity,

[@simonpetersonmusic]

BTW! Tim Lefebvre has a signature active 5-string (30") short scale with Maurizio Über! Fodera are 30.75" or 31" depending on the number of strings.

[@clcortelyou]

I started on a used 1963 EB-0 in 1978 as a high school freshman. It had a beautiful neck, typical of the Gibsons of its day. I turned it into my own version of Lee Sklar's Frankenstein - hacking in a DiMarzio Model-P, adding a Badass II bridge and replacing the nylon wrapped flats with Rotosounds, all to get some treble and mid into that thing. I am probably guilty of desecration in all of that. The day I bought my first long-scale bass, in 2001, was a day of pure joy.

[@AnnaKissed36]

I'm a 53 year old 6'3" person who has physical disabilities and mobility issues. I'm trying to learn bass through SBL acadamy. I have a very cheap 34" jazz style bass and it's k1lling me. It's too heavy to set up by myself and exhausting to use, even though I'm always seated, so I've been thinking that perhaps if I win lotto, something like a fender kingman might be better. Please don't boot me from the academy Scott for considering the double whammy, short scale AND acoustic haha.

[@westleywalsh8188]

My dad moved to a Squier Mustang after 40+ years playing long scale basses professionally. That change bought him another 10 years of playing before post-polio syndrome finally drove him to retirement.

[@jeffreyskiffle5053]

I had to switch to a lightweight short scale for mobility issues and am so happy I did. Headless short scales are even easier to play.

[@bklynbass]

JMJ was pivotal on many fronts... short scales, effects (WAY into massive pedalboards on the scene in Beck's band WAY before Tim Lefevbre rose to the prominence he has now), using flatwound strings... the list goes on. And yes, I remember seeing him on SNL post -Mutations and Midnight Vultures playing his Starfire and Coronado... shredding on the Coronado with a pick playing some of the busiest yet in-the-pocket Jamerson/Carol Kaye-esque shit ever. He's massively underrated by the KZbin bass nerds.

[@jeffmuck7970]

I’ll never get over Mike Kerr playing a $300 bass in front of huge crowds. (I mean this positively. It’s awesome.)

[@thierry18]

I bought one because I saw him playing it, I picked mine up for just under $200. It's an amazing instrument, and not just for the price. It has a very unique sound but it works great in many contexts

[@jeffmuck7970]

@@thierry18 Same and I like it a lot. Would only change some of the hardware. I’d like to upgrade the bridge first because that gives me some problems.

[@WilDBeestMF]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing an inexpensive instrument. People need to get over the price of things, and use their ears and their sense of musicianship. That's why he plays it. It looks cool, it feels good, and it sounds really good. Its cost is unimportant - to everyone but you guys.

[@jeffmuck7970]

@@WilDBeestMF I think it’s awesome he does it. Didn’t mean it in a negative way. Most players would act too good for it.

[@YTPartyTonight]

If it’s a good one then it is. A $3,000 basses can be dogs too. $30K basses-same.

[@kurtohnehelm6589]

I think it's important to find an instrument the player feels comfortable with. And if that's a shortscale with a big fat mudbucker or a 6 string fanfret with active electronics then that's totally fine. Since Ian became part of the channel I started watching some stuff from time to time as I think that Ian has great charisma and is an even better teacher that will prob help you become the player you want to be and play in a way that feels right for you. That said, I am a huge guy. Tall and heavy. I love shortscales.

[@stevebowen2275]

I played a Jazz bass for decades but as I got older my hands started to hurt more, perhaps early arthritis, and my shoulders began to hurt more if I played long periods of time. Then I switched to short scale and that all went away & playing was fun again 🙂

[@ClimbingStones]

I like that this comes out the day I get my get my first short scale

[@rossculver3632]

Stanley Clarke plays a short scale bass

[@bquan69]

Yeah, I thought he was going to be on the list for sure.

[@rmorris8544]

Indeed. Although should mention he has often been playing "Piccolo Bass" along with a "Low Bass" player.

[@rossculver3632]

His main bass is a short scale Alembic is a short scale

[@Seanwins]

Pfffft... I'm 6'5" and I love my short-scale. Some people care more about appearances though, like an idiot who would pay a ton of $$$ to have something reliced.

[@sharancogzell2228]

This video is very disappointing, narrow-minded and quite frankly disrespectful coming from you Scott... not your normal balanced view. If the esteemed, super tall, Stanley Clarke chose to play an Alembic short scale bass as his main bass, speaks for itself.

[@costasalivizatos9780]

John Entwistle recorded "my generation" with a shortscale to get right the bends on the solo. no shit

[@backdoorarts5243]

Stanley Clarke plays a 30.75" scale. Macca's Hofner is 30". Get over it. Shall I go on?

[@killurtv319]

Mike Watt’s Wattplower2 is an amazing bass!

[@vinceasmith]

I feel disheartened by this conversation. As a mere covers band player in UK pubs, I got a short scale for the sheer physical reasons of having so little space, and not want to either "tap" my headstock on a wall, or smack the singer, etc. The 30" scale made it much more appropriate for those gigs where space was a premium. I went with a Vox Airstream Artist which comes with a Gotoh bridge and machine heads and a Aguilar active EQ and (musicman-style) humbucker pickup. It's been great to play. I did consider the Sterling short-scale, the Nordstrand "cat", Gretsch basses. But the Vox was a great price. I also know someone with the Sandberg Lionel - they are happy with that. On a negative that you didn't mention, was strings - there are much fewer choices of strings.

[@SO-ym3zs]

Pros: * Generally smaller and lighter, so easier on the shoulder/thigh, and well suited to anyone with a smaller stature, though perfectly playable by larger folks. I've heard lots of players with arthritis or other physical setbacks say that short-scales are easier for them, too. * Different sound: more thump, less chime * Easier for guitarists doubling on bass or switching to bass * Easier/more comfortable to play because of the narrower fret spacing and reduced string tension (easier to bend strings, too) Cons: * Harder to detune without string flop or intonation issues * Fewer options to choose from in a world (sadly) dominated by 34"s * If you build muscle memory on a 30", switching to a 34" and back again can be weird, but that has nothing to do with the short scale per se Not a con: how it looks. Unless you have some weird self-esteem hangup, where you have to play a huge instrument, playing a slightly smaller bass won't look strange--certainly no stranger than the millions playing electric guitars, which are even smaller--let alone mandolins, ukuleles, violins, etc.

[@TheMahaffeymg]

I'm surprised that Nick Campbell isn't on the list. He's the reason I started looking at short scale basses and he's and absolute MONSTER player.

[@michabigulak19]

At the start of the video I was looking in chapters on timeline if Nick is mentioned :D First thing I did.

[@rmorris8544]

Is this in addition to his Radio 5 duties 🤣

[@ruffryder13]

The whole "small person" schtick was old after five minutes.

[@MrOtistetrax]

It was offensive after 1 second.

[@501lilspoon]

​​@@MrOtistetraxright? Im 6f1 and dont play a short scale and i was kinda shocked they were so mean. Scotts usually cool

[@tiltil9442]

There are better schicks to beat on the short scale thingies with. But they're nice to carry and handle, too.

[@jonw8694]

yep...after about 30 seconds I was like "well, where's my unsubscribe button?"

[@SO-ym3zs]

Yeah, either the guy is really a jerk, or it was a calculated move to generate views and comments to feed the algorithm. Which is also a jerk move.

[@jorgerodriguezsierra7593]

Worst SBL video ever! Even those alone Scott videos repeating the same stuff over and over are better. Seriously guys you can do better.

[@kenkooty4889]

Learned on a bronco and always stuck with short scale. The dads love telling me to get a proper bass but rock is rock.

[@M2Mil7er]

On Wichita Lineman, Carol Kaye also played on it, including the descending 6 note line at the start, and an improvised lick which the string arrangement used.

[@JeremyAndersonBoise]

Good pull! 👏

[@kristinjacobs9153]

Great song - the first time I ever heard Glen Campbell, too. My dad even bought me the album, at his part time job at Sears.

[@Kunibert_Knatter]

Carol Kaye also played on Good Vibrations, which Ian used an an example for sound.

[@stanleysokolow]

Glarry, known as a low-cost instrument maker, has a very short scale bass that has a 25.5" scale length. They call it a kids bass, but you can find many KZbin reviews of it by adult bass players who like it. I recently bought one for US$99 directly from Glarry, including shipping in the USA.

[@geraldfriend256]

I just reworked a 60s Japanese 25.5 er and tuned it CGDA ( exact cello tuning) with real cello strings. Brutal string tension and low output.. But sooo lovely warm and dark. Especially cuz I never use a pick. Ibanez has a 27.5 incher that interests me. Pretty cheap too.

[@geraldfriend256]

Oh and thanx for the tip; I need one of those

[@jarnoverhoeven3118]

Ibanez even has a 5-string in 28.6" scale (two actually, in the Talman style and the GSRM25), I tuned my GSRM25 as a piccolo bass, ADGCF.

[@dynodansmoking]

Dang. Way to lose support

[@theoforde-stiegler]

I came to bass from cello and guitar. Shortscale was perfect for me. But a regular bass felt uncomfortable and weird. So i now play all 32" (medium scale basses) and can comfortably switch to 34" and 30" and cello... I also have a now fretless 27.5" Ibanez mikro that is fabulous!

[@MrLouisianaHayride]

A shoulder issue is what got me into short scales. Btw they don't all sound tubby. A reverse P pickup will do wonders when it comes to a tighter sound more like a normal P bass.

[@Iofflight78]

Definitely not. I have 4 currently (JMJ, Birdsong, SR shortie, and Nordstrand Cat) and have two 32" inches coming - a Zoot and a Serek. These all have their places. I'll always have a J bass, P bass and StingRay in the full configuration as one does. But man my Acinonyx V1 is just fantastic, love it, love the sound, and love the 16.5 mm string spacing. I mean real talk though, if big guys look stupid with a small bass, which is still bigger than most guitars, what does that say about big dudes who play guitar on stage? Yep they must all look stupid too. And mandolin players? They just need to play in the dark I guess.

[@geraldfriend256]

I have a super short bass with a 3/4 guitar sized body and unorthodox technique. I look waaaay beyond awkward and I love it.

[@hudsontangredi8961]

Acinonyx is 🔥

[@lynnpalmer8133]

I love love love my Cat bass. ONLY complaint is if I get a bit excited, I fairly often accidentally hit the buttons which changes tone or sometimes cuts signal altogether. Aside from that, it’s my favorite SS…..and I have quite a few. Honorable mention is my Gretch Junior Jet II. Helluva a bass for the $. Picked mine up for $150 used in great shape.

[@bjdurrett]

To each, their own. Whatever makes great music. I really love bass talk and can even handle criticism that goes against my beliefs., but I would enjoy these videos so much more with way less forced laughter.

[@alrightythen214]

Another disabled rocker here. Don't appreciate your denigrating it! I can only carry the tiny instruments now

[@BeardedDrums]

Kind of surprised at Scott for this one, not so much having a different opinion which is always welcome But I’m not sure alienating part of the base of your channel is right move. Especially the obvious contempt on his face about the topic.

[@BassPlayerNcl]

Gibson EB3: 2 humbuckers, 5 way rotary switch. Quite a range of rubbery, bottom end and a surprising amount of grit. Gibson EB0: 1 mudbucker with essentially one sound. Very big low end. Hardly any top! EDIT- The Gibson Triumph is easily the most sonically versatile bass I’ve ever owned (and HEAVIEST) and it’s a 30.3 scale length!

[@clcortelyou]

Mudbucker! Oh my, yes!

[@LordBarrington]

EB-0 had only 1 pickup, and was first marketed in 1959 in response to the declining sales of Gibson's EB-1. (was also available as the EB-0L long scale and EB-0F with a built in passive fuzz) The EB-1 was a solid body shaped like a double bass The EB-2 was the semi hollow body es335 shaped bass with 2 pickups The EB-3 has 2 pickups with a 4 way rotary switch

[@pumpichank]

I'll go farther and say that short scales are a bass player's secret weapon! I've always been a Fender P bass guy primarily (but also have some Warwicks, an MTD, etc) and a couple of years ago I picked up a Sandberg Lionel 30". It's been my main gigging bass ever since and I get tons of positive comments from fellow musicians and my bass player friends. It's truly an amazing bass, as are all Sandbergs. From garage rock to blues to reggae, it plays like a dream and sounds big and fat. Of course I string it with TI flats, but I can rock out with it, slap with it, play with a pick, or roll off the treble and thump it. The Lionel is a passive P bass short scale. I did a couple of pick up reggae gigs with it and even the drummer was like, woo! what IS that bass? I don't think y'all realize just how fat beefy and full the shorties sound. Well, maybe Ian does 😀. And hey on a typical constrained bar gig "stage", whoever is standing to your left is gonna really thank you for bringing a short scale. No more smacking the harp player in the face "accidentally"! I also recently picked up a custom made Sandberg PJ fretless with active electronics and it's bad ass too. Super light but very nice Jaco-ish bridge tone, fat P-bass neck tone and really nice mixed tone. I have a buddy with a couple of Wilcock basses and they're amazing too, but more expensive and value for $ I don't think you can beat a Sandberg. The Florence is another great Sandberg short scale, with the mudbucker and dirty tone-knob pulled tone shape. When I was buying my PJ, the Sandberg guy said you can actually custom order any of their basses in a short scale, though it might take a while. So yeah, short scales rule, and Sandbergs are absolutely stellar examples of them.

[@jima2570]

I've never liked the short scale bass thing until I played a Sire U5. I have to say it sounds closer to a long scale bass than other short scale basses I've played. Nice job guys!

[@Aethalops]

Sounds great. Plays great. Well built. Overall amazing value. Looks completely stupid with that p-style headstock and tuning knobs. I love mine but it's destined to be modified.

[@krispykrunkdonut]

I love a short scale. outside of my stingray, my 2 most played basses are my mustang and my heavily modded bronco that has 2 t bird pickups in it lol. EDIT: also the short scale stingray still very much sounds like a stingray. where the fundamental isnt as strong across the board as it is on a mustang or other traditional SS.

[@LoftyAssertions]

I just made the switch to a short scale bass and I adore it, it's so easy to play and sounds more modern too. The only con is that it can't be downtuned below C# with stability. I really enjoyed the sarcastic snobbery in this video though hahaha

[@disgruntledfaerie]

(and my favorite thing about short scale basses is how they sound in their upper register - so pillowy and soft and rich)

[@SO-ym3zs]

Good point. People tend to emphasize the extra-fat bottom end, but it's the upper register where basses in general sound the best and most unique compared to other stringed instruments, and short scales can sound really beautiful up there.

[@jeffreyskiffle5053]

It felt like he was making “fun” of people whose only options are short scale or not playing at all - people with disabilities like myself. I know he was joking, but I couldn’t not feel offended and it rubbed me the wrong way. This was done in poor taste and I’m less of a SBL fan now.

[@TehDFC]

I'm more of a fan so I'm cancelling you out. He's not doing that-he also has a disability. Hope this helps.

[@jschaetz]

I'm a PJ Mustang player and 100% agree with you. Usually love their vids. No need for snobbery 😭

[@brianmeader6242]

@@TehDFCwell then you’d think at least 1 of them would have identified that as hardly an insignificant “pro”.

[@markwarner5554]

The Ibanez Mikro series of short scale basses are a lot of fun to play at 28.6" scale. They also do a medium scale series called Mezzo. But they are all very low-cost, budget-friendly instruments. Nothing on the higher end unless you looks at the SRC basses.

[@SO-ym3zs]

The Mikro is a lot of fun! The tone can be a bit grainy and coarse, but that can definitely suit some genres. The ergonomics are outstanding--it's ridiculously comfortable to play--and hits like a sledgehammer. Really good for such a low price. Great for a starter/travel/backup bass!

[@jensbomholt4529]

My Ibanez Mikro satisfies all my needs and wishes. When I tried a relative's full scale Fender, it felt very uncomfortable in comparison. Ibanez Mikro is so fun and easy and cool.

[@SO-ym3zs]

@@jensbomholt4529 It's the bass that got me back into bass playing after a long hiatus and made me switch from guitar to bass permanenly.

[@pghmonkey]

This is either ragebait for clicks or simple disrespect. Seems self defeating if he is trying to promote his learning product to bass players; is he only promoting his product to long scale bass players? I need to play short scale for shoulder problems and I am looking to commit to more lessons. Do I pick the guy that would look down on the gear I use as "stupid" and refers to me as "loser" playing my short scale bass to teach me? I'm going to pass him by and go to a teacher that is enthusisastic to promote bass playing and isn't as obviously hung up on how my bass looks on me. It's all quite silly really. I guess likewise one could say Scott looks like a child behind a full size bass, but who cares? He plays great.

[@harrybrooks8514]

The EB3 had 2 pickups and a multi-position dial switch. Neck p/u was the same old “mud bucker”, and the bridge p/u was a “mini” humbucker much like the current SG Bass. It also had an adjustable bridge, unlike the EB0. I rebuilt one in 1982, rewound the p/us and found a better bridge. Got rid of that selector switch too; it was way too noisy. Mini toggles were quieter. I kick myself for having sold it.

[@rubenprins72]

Sire Marcus Miller U5, love it

[@mattbrumit8592]

Who's this video for? It should be titled Scott sh#t's on short scale basses and bass players. Then oddly hucks the academy inbetween for people who dislike short scale basses? For the next one Ian should go solo.

[@crankjazz]

Hear, hear

[@JLeppert]

6'2'' 195#. 'm a big dude. My short scale is my favorite bass to play. Does it look small? Well, yes. But, not compared to a stratocaster. You ask why, or whom was the inspiration-- Muscular Dystrophy is the reason. My P-Bass is most of the time horrifically uncomfortable, and occasionally dangerous. However the Yamaha BB series is very comfortable.

[@thanasiskaldis3623]

Jack Bruce was such a unique voice in the bass and rock n roll world. Not only sound wise but also playing wise. Soloist, composer, improviser, genuine rocker (but also with a jazz background ) and real artist. Of course tastes differ and you're entitled not to like him for whatever reason. I just don't see the reason not to like such a player. Maybe you're not into classic rock as much as other styles 😊

[@Madbunyip3]

Musicman USA Sterling HH, often mixed up with the Stirling Sub.

[@adamwalcott_official]

The Nordy Acinonyx Versions 1 and 2 are legit amazing bass guitars. Amazing price as well.

[@devinebass]

Very true, the Cat basses are fantastic!

[@mateybass]

SBL, In response to your query, it's not the missing (recently rediscovered) violin bass. The easy way to tell Paul's first two violin basses apart is the pickup placement. The early ones like the one that went missing (Paul's first violin bass), had a weakness in the front face of the body because the pickups were too close to each other. Pauls was repaired after his, for whatever reason broke, and became his backup bass. The bass in the rooftop video is the later pickup placement, much further apart.

[@DigBipper188]

The Gibson EB-0 doesn't have 2 pickups, it has the one mudbucker in the neck position and that's it. There is a walnut version of the EB-0 that has the pickup positioned further back if you want a bit better mid response, but it's still a big fat humbucking pickup, so don't expect P-bass tones from it :) the EB-3 has a bridge pickup Both basses are very similar otherwise being that they're SG shaped.