DF Direct Retro! Nintendo's Famicom Disk System - 'Mass Storage' Gaming in 1986?

[@purplezebrahoover]

That Asterix tshirt is badass

[@AgsmaJustAgsma]

@@AlyBubsen Yes, please. A review of the Asterix arcade game by Konami would be much appreciated.

[@nickwallette6201]

The FDS copy protection is pretty interesting. First, you have that engraved logo that a matching plastic key in the drive fits into. The idea there is that it prevents ordinary Mitsumi Quick Disks from being inserted. Only Nintendo official cards. And since the logo is legally protected, third parties could not create their own disks because they would have to use the Nintendo name to match the key. However, clever clones used variations that were physically compatible but different enough not to infringe. Like "NINTFNDO", or in some cases, just a big empty rectangle. Although, the protection could be defeated trivially by the end user -- the key in the drive is actually a separate piece of plastic that comes right out! Then, Nintendo had to deal with the fact that saving meant write capability, and if you could write to the disk, you could potentially copy them. Early versions did not prevent this, but later ones did - by limiting the amount of time the write head could be engaged. Disks are read and written linearly, like a tape. The motor turns a spiral cog that pulls the head toward the center of the disk as it turns. When the head reaches the end of travel, it returns back to the outside of the disk, ready for the next request. There is no file system, but the data can be broken into records separated by a suitable gap. To read any record, you start the disk and wait for it to stream all the prior records until the one you want comes up. You can also start writing to replace records - like save games. Since the positioning of the head is so sloppy, it would be difficult to preserve data after a newly written record - you wouldn't know if you had written over the preamble of the next, or still had residual data from the one you were replacing. So, typically, saves would be at the end of the disk. Then you just mark it as the last record, and any residual data after that is ignored. The point is, the amount of data you would be writing is fairly small - so the drive can assume if you're writing more than a few tens of KB, you're up to some shenanigans. Later drives will kill the write enable signal to thwart whole-disk copies. But, it can be fairly easily modded on most revisions to disconnect the write-kill, and then you can go back to writing your "home brew" disks again. :-) Since copies were so easy to make, and the physical protection was a joke, pirates were rampant. This, combined with the falling cost of mask ROM meant that the planned US / EU release was abandoned before it saw the light of day, and many FDS exclusive titles ended up being re-released on carts even in Japan. Hence the unused expansion port on the NES - although I suspect the FDS was only one such potential accessory. What else would there be? Who knows. It was pretty standard practice to just throw some address and data lines on there, along with input lines for as-yet unimagined controllers, and just see what manufacturers came up with. In the case of the NES - not much.

[@andrewcassidy4799]

Great info mate, really interesting to read cheers.

[@nux3960]

Reading this while watching the video was satisfying, so cool, really worth it.

[@CondorCalabasas]

I love this show. Even this "75%" take is so in-depth, well worded, and everyone working on these videos seems so well informed/educated on these subjects.

[@DigitalFoundry]

Let us know which other topics you'd like to see in the DF Retro Direct format! This won't replace regular DFR episodes, of course, but it's a fun way to talk about other things that may not have been covered otherwise! If you want more obscure things covered, this is probably a good way to do it!

[@shuntarofurukawa5577]

Banjo Kazooie?

[@shuntarofurukawa5577]

You should pin this

[@RobertoVillegas-vincent404]

Maybe a deep discussion of certain retro games that are technically impressive? Really enjoy learning some of the techniques done in the past to achieve super memorable visuals.

[@MilesMetal]

How long until the Patreon video is available?

[@BDreGaming]

Atari jaguar!

[@joewalsh1159]

You don’t need to apologize for the informal nature - you guys still put together an informative, entertaining piece of retro love. If this is your lower quality stuff, you guys are doing amazing!

[@onQQuincy]

It's weird that in my dream this morning my old PS3 had a floppy disk drive above the blu-ray drive then I come to youtube & see this lol

[@lorenamondragon5693]

Lol nice dream

[@onQQuincy]

@@lorenamondragon5693 It was out of nowhere because I haven't touched my PS3 in over 5 years & haven't seen a floppy disk in over 10 years lol

[@michaelmay9728]

Y’all should do a video on the N64 disk system

[@Olie956]

Yes, I agree.

[@rcontrerastaule]

They did it i think...

[@RobertoVillegas-vincent404]

Next to the Satellaview, this is my favorite piece of Nintendo tech I never had as a kid. I have a feeling the kid version of me would have lost his mind if the FDS had come stateside.

[@brainbeatuk]

Do you have a nes? You can play stella and fds on there if you use an everdrive

[@RobertoVillegas-vincent404]

brainbeatuk I have been exploring some of the Satella games on my SD2SNES as of late, so it’s definitely fun to see what they did. Definitely fun tech to dig into.

[@brainbeatuk]

@@RobertoVillegas-vincent404 I got confused and said stella I meant satella but that's SNES anyway rip lol. I keep humming over to get a sd2snes but just can't pay the dough for a few games I can play on PS vista or somet. My supernt is jb but it's like the cheaper SNES everdrive no expansion chips

[@cristianrodriguez8429]

Crazy that you mentioned it, in last trip to book off, they had a satella view on display, it was so surreal to admire that piece of hardware in 2019, such a legendary device just seen in magazines pictures.

[@johnsimon8457]

The Chrontendo channel covers a lot of these games already. Outside of those major hits we already know there’s a lot of budget games and visual novels

[@LonSeidman]

One of the neat features of the Everdrive N8 flash cart is that it will also emulate the disk system. Kinda neat to play these games on an American NES although it will be lacking the extra sound channels.

[@SHGames97]

Hi Lon!

[@omarmmzn]

I learned so much about how games work and the history of consoles and their technology from this channel. Keep it up guys❤️ all the love from Iraq.

[@charvelgtrs]

Vs. Excitebike absolutely destroys the original cart version. 1. Background music 2, 2 Player mode 3, Can actually save your custom tracks.

[@scarffoxandfriends9401]

Yah, Nintendo always knew the advantages of disks, the only reason they backed out of PS was because Sony worded the contract so that they basically absorbed Nintendo to atart up a gaming division for free while make more money than the company behind making the system and games o3o then after that since Sony/Phillips had the copyrights to the CD media they could only use the format with cooperation with one of them.

[@chaoscontroller316]

@@scarffoxandfriends9401 Wait, THAT was the fine print that made Nintendo back out of the deal?

[@scarffoxandfriends9401]

@@chaoscontroller316 yes, the fine print said that no game was allowed to be made for the playstation without Sony approval. They get a large sum pf the sale revenue and they could make any future playstation console without Nintendo while still having the rights to use Nintendo IPs. That last part was vague enough to mean they could make their own Mario/Zelda games for ps2/3/4 while still dumping Nintendo. The first part gave them hold to tell Nintendo developers how a game should be. As Sony dropped more and more "childish" IPs over time, a lot of modern Nintendo games probably would never had been made if Nintendo stayed with Sony o3o

[@scarffoxandfriends9401]

@@chaoscontroller316 keep on mind, this deal was being made when Sony was going around buying companies every possible entertainment medium. They just say this as a chance to get into the Gaming medium for cheap.

[@chaoscontroller316]

@@scarffoxandfriends9401 And people consider this a mistake on Nintendo's part why?

[@benblem147]

25:00 That rabbit hole goes a bit deeper than a TV program block (hard to explain, theme park but not quite). Look up コミュニケーションカーニバル 夢工場'87. KZbin channel 'Gaijillionaire' went into detail on this in the video 'The Story Of Yume Kojo'.

[@ChristopherSobieniak]

Yep, it's a very thorough video on what this Yume Kojo '87 was.

[@BlockABoots]

13:04 Haha! John stops Audi from pocketing the disk

[@HueyTheDoctor]

LOL pocketing denied. John would fight a guy in a cage to protect his game collection, and he'd win. There's an animal in that man, lurking below the nerdy surface. Not a lion but still... something that'd leave a mark.

[@narcopsy]

That's funny, But it didn't really look like he was gonna put it in his pocket, he was just holding it by his side

[@BlockABoots]

@@narcopsywell obviously

[@narcopsy]

@@BlockABoots well, you made me look to see for myself so I'm clarifying that didn't actually happen

[@locke103]

@@HueyTheDoctor so... a mongoose.

[@theinfinity7s]

Videos of this format are absolutely welcomed. Your channel produces such fantastic content. Thank you for sharing such cool info on the FDS. The Twin looks really awesome. I wouldn't mind picking one up eventually. Haha

[@FinalBaton]

Awesome vid. The FDS game that interests me the most is "The Mysterious Murasame Castle". It looks like a great fast-paced, furious action romp.

[@Pichuscute]

You can play it on 3DS. It's an absolutely fantastic game.

[@KetwunsGamingPad]

Get it quick before the store closes now ha

[@fourdee4d]

Gentleman on your right is your friend. John on left is the gentleman's friend. Together, we all benefit. TLDR: Continue this format. Bounce insight, intelligence and respect off each other. You both make it work, we are lucky to enjoy. Thank you. 1337

[@danieljohn9257]

The FDS A of Link theme song may be more full bodied, but for me, the NES A of Link intro is so special. They did so much with what they had. So much emotion even!

[@GameplayandTalk]

Those extra sound channels are awesome. I definitely need to get myself set up with one of those FDS Sticks.

[@videogameobsession]

My favorite combo now is the AVS + Nintendo Disk System RAM cart + FDS Stick. Plays like the real thing, but with much faster loading and no disk errors to deal with.

[@halfling_barista]

You do a great job with your music comparisons. The graphics are thoughtful.

[@doh4828]

Ah, the Excite-series...I’d love it if DF Retro would cover Excitetruck some day, as imho it’s one of the greatest arcade racers ever and a technical marvel on the Wii with a rock-solid 60 fps, great drawing distances, a tremendous sense of speed and probably the best motion controlled game of that era. I’ve S-ranked the shit out of it back in the day and me and a mate still play it regularly. You hear me, John and Rich? Give it a go some day😊

[@mcrazza]

I love these vids. Keep them coming!

[@LogainAblar]

I'm not sure if this was covered already in DF Retro but I'd love to see a segment on the old Amiga series of computers. I owned a A500 back in the early 90s and that was THE gaming machine to have long before PC gaming was the juggernaut it is today. Also, the Amiga series also had great sound hardware and graphics applications. A lot of game developers swore by EA's DeluxePaint back in the day as one of the best tools to create sprite based work. I owned that too and used it for years. Also used it to work on a Doom styled game for the Amiga during my college years that unfortunately never saw the light of day. We can't talk about Retro gaming in the 80's and 90's without talking about the Amiga. Get this, they're still available to purchase today. Not the Motorola 68000 series powered machines of the past but updated versions using a variety of architectures.

[@chrismckerchar]

Great episode guys, I loved it. I've recently been wanting to know more about the Famicom and it's disk system so this has really scratched that itch

[@gogosegaga]

cool! i want more sega saturn df retro love!

[@HunterTinsley]

Gradius Gaiden music makes everything cheerful.

[@daverhodus]

The FDS core on MiSTer is amazing. No loading and auto disk switching.

[@PaperlessWriter]

John seems even more chill than usual here. Looking forward to the full fat look at that 3DO POS "Way of the Warrior."

[@TamsinV]

Wait did I click on Digital Foundry or GamingHistorian? XD Awesome video, I love this stuff

[@talesfromthemancave]

Love the format - keep em coming!

[@BennyBsolo]

I really enjoy these types of topics. Thanks for sharing your knowledge guys.

[@magnus87]

Imagine if Nintendo had put the FDS sound chip in the NES. Similarly SEGA did it when it launched the Mark III again in Japan under the name of Master System, They added the FM Sound chip

[@brainbeatuk]

It is actually on the nes but there is no cartridge pin to it I think. I modded mine to be able to play fds sound

[@Tempora158]

@@brainbeatuk The Ricoh RP2C33 audio chip was never in the NES or the Famicom; it's only found in the Famicom RAM Adapter for the FDS. The audio mod for the NES you are thinking of allows the NES to output sound from extra audio chips found in Famicom carts.

[@brainbeatuk]

@@Tempora158 thank you yeah looks like I was getting confused. I can play that chip on my everdrive then and the mod is to enable the channel output? I know I can tell the diffrence between castlevania jp and us now. Sorry I did it a yr or so ago and just enjoy it now

[@Tempora158]

​@@brainbeatuk The Everdrive N8 itself has emulations of audio chips found in Famicom carts, including the Famicom RAM Adapter.

[@SolarMechanic]

03:30 That cartridge insertion is giving me palpatations. FIX IT!

[@zummone]

16:48 apparently the "RAM" cart also included a controller that is able to write into VRAM in real time, or so I've gathered. It's either that or that cart also served as a VRAM expansion, and it could be rewritten without bothering the main system?

[@phil_aesthetics]

I had that baby game when i was young, it came in a cartrige that looked like you could split it. it was dubbed as baby mario

[@PaulBosanova]

Great video chaps!

[@Horos_de_Vega]

Awesome video, awesome system. Dream duo: the Famicom-red Analogue Nt + FDS.

[@MartinMcHendry]

ANother great video! This is something I've always wanted to know more about since seeing it as a kid, but I never had the cash to spare to get into collecting. Thanks, guys!

[@thanksbetotap]

This was great! Cool Easter egg-type info for Nintendo fans.

[@LaFu3000]

For more technical details and lot's of samples, give a listen to the Retro Game Audio podcast on Soundcloud. They did a lot of episodes on different Sound Hardware, Companies and Composers.

[@SuperFirstSecond]

I'm down for any and all DF Retro content.

[@charvelgtrs]

The expansion port on the NES has all the same pins/signals as the cart slot. So its essentially a 2nd cart slot just with a different connector.

[@T3hKaiser]

Weird question, does anyone know if the two big headed Charlie Brown looking guys that appear around 11:36 into the video have names? The ones by the sentient Disk Writer.

[@AgsmaJustAgsma]

I find surreal to listen to the main theme of Monty on the Run with the FDS soundchip.

[@ARocketsPocket]

Thanks for the video. Enjoyed it quite much. And I think this format is perfect for curious things like the FDS. In dem Sinn: Gute Arbeit und so. 👍

[@OsakaSan]

This was a really informative video. When talking about the FDS, people usually omits the extra audio hardware so that info was new for me. I can understand the low viewer count though, the FDS is oddly specific and obscure, so very few people may have found it interesting, please don't use it to gauge interest on the format! It would be like if Konami used a Castlevania Legends re-release to gauge if there's still interest in the Castlevania series.

[@Soulintent95]

The video i didnt know i was waiting for... when i found out about the fds i became so interested in it. Ive looked up videos of the games and differences. What a cool piece of gaming history and tech!

[@zanychelly]

Awesome episode.

[@daveferreira6270]

I'm a man of simple tastes. I see John Linneman I instantly give a thumbs up.

[@maniacsatwork]

These are great, keep them coming.

[@williamwilliam9993]

17:17 it sounds like FM Symthesis used in arcade machine mostly used by yamaha

[@matuzaato]

Great idea! Nice format

[@juanparedes7585]

Nice job dude!

[@silentfanatic]

John, have you had any trouble getting audio to work correctly with the FDS passed through the NT Mini? I have the ramp adapter plugged in with an FDS stick, and the FDS audio seems incredibly faint.

[@Littlefighter1911]

I find this early copy-protection fascinating. This and the Gameboy were basically like: "Yeah, you can't put the Nintendo logo on there, because of copyright, but it won't boot without it!"

[@no_misaki]

The FDS metroid theme brings a tear to my eye and i'm not even sure why.

[@randywilliams6248]

I loved how they basically had a rental service you took your disks to.

[@videogameobsession]

My favorite diskette drive for a Nintendo console was the Super Wild Card DX. :) I bought it in 1993 and it's still working great.

[@MorbidThrasher666]

Love these retro eps,more please

[@doslover]

25:11 - Did I mishear or did you call Shigeru Miyamoto "Shiggy"? lol

[@baddmatt9588]

I thought Doki Doki Panic was created for a TV station by Nintendo for some upcoming festival involving masks in Japan. And it was created to correspond with it as a celebration of it.

[@KNGINetwork]

More Retro in any form is always good! More Audi too.

[@Rationalific]

23:07 - So let me get this straight... The cases that the games came in were square...except for Square games, which came in rectangular boxes...

[@OverHaze]

Just an idea but do you think you could do a DF Retro on Mega Drive/Genesis games that mimicked in SNES hardware features like scaling and rotation? It's amazing what some programmers made that Motorola 68000 do. I'd love to know how!

[@Oniphire]

I want to know why that opened Game Boy case on the shelf is open and which game is in it.

[@Harpreet06]

I remember when I wanted a Playstation, I asked my dad for one and instead he got me an SNES with something like this and said look it has over 500 games. All the games were on floppy disks and came with like a small locker full of games.

[@Clay3613]

Did you keep it? Those are worth a pretty penny today.

[@Clay3613]

It was a Super Wild Card?

[@Kafei2006]

The music from the Castlevania save load screen was later remixed and used for the same screen in Harmony of Dissonance on GBA.

[@perehn8910]

5:51 The Famicom Discsystem cartridge has SONY components in it? Mind blown

[@nickwallette6201]

Careful opening the SNES then...

[@nSpiraliArchitectb]

This thing was *way* ahead of its time.

[@tokyobassist]

Who is behind the music choices on your videos? Gradius Gaiden in the background had me reeling back.

[@Mogura87]

I'm fairly sure it's John himself who chooses the music. In the DF team he seems to be the most well-versed and experienced with retro games. If a retro gaming video has a good selection of stellar video game BGMs it's a tell-tale sign that the content creators have good taste. This is true for DF Retro, My life in gaming, The last gamer, bithead1000, you name it.

[@peace4myheart]

What is the name of that shmups at 2:58? Looks really cool

[@shadoom]

It's one game of 198X The game they were talking about the whole time

[@peace4myheart]

@@shadoom Thanks. I thought 198x was one game, not all 5 games together. Wish it was a full blown shmups though as that is my favorite genre, even in this days and age of realistic graphics.

[@Zionfarm]

I did like this episode with the retro Nintendo Famicom Disk System.

[@mingerone]

How many TV shows on amazon have released weekly? curious. Thanks.

[@DrKrFfXx-0]

From which game is the music that starts around 21:40?

[@DrKrFfXx-0]

Megaman 6 comes to mind, but not entirely sure.

[@ManGer87]

Megaman 9 : Concrete Man Stage

[@JohnnyUndaunted]

I remember reading somewhere that Bokutte Upa was planned for the US under the title of Babyland, but Nintendo rejected the game. I wonder if the cartridge port of the game was repurposed from that canceled localization, much like the Famicom cartridge versions of Dracula and Moero TwinBee.

[@JAYCEEDOUBLE]

Whats the background song at 2:50 ?

[@SUPERNOVASpodcast]

Didn't know about that FDS Stick. I have a Twin Famicom. Is it compatible with the FDS Stick?

[@DrKrFfXx-0]

I always desuscribe from DF before watching a DF Retro video, so I can like and suscribe at the end.

[@Pichuscute]

I can't wait to get one of these. It has a lot of cool games on it and it's just cool as hell.

[@Clay3613]

Save your money and just emulate these games through an emulator or flashcart.

[@rinsatomi9527]

0:03 Kickass 8-bit rendition from Area 88 (Stage 2)

[@Notsram77]

Thanks for the video..... What's this? Doom 1-3 landed on Nintendo Switch? I think you know what to do.

[@redcrimson1028]

What should i do?

[@sandruz87]

I can't remeber where I heard this music... 21:45. Edit: Ahhh Megaman 9 Concrete Jungle!

[@ElricSowrd]

Nintendo Famicom Disk System, huh? It is an interesting add-on combination with the Famicom Consoles. I am familiar with the extra Sound Channel it has compared to the Standard Famicom Consoles, the Japanese Super Mario Bros. 2 and Doki Doki Panic! I also have a thing for Dirty Pair. ☺

[@djsyndrome]

Came for the FDS, stayed for the Gradius Gaiden music.

[@ShanGamer1981]

Love retro vids !

[@dan_loup]

Something quite curious i noticed this video that there's no information whatsoever on the internet is about those cartridges on the disk writer. They look like yellow NES cartridges, but absolutely nothing is said about what's in em or even a picture of one of those pulled out of the disk writer.

[@AlexMoenR]

They also used the NES cartridge style in the Famicom Box which was used to demo Famicom in stores, which were the only times you'd see that cart style in Japan. I would guess that they repurposed the NES cartridges here because they have the CIC copy protection, which Famicom carts don't. You couldn't use unlicensed carts to load games on the disk writer. They probably saw the NES carts as the 2.0 of Famicom carts to use wherever possible, and they would go on to put lockout chips in all future Nintendo carts.

[@dan_loup]

@@AlexMoenR I suspect those cartridges on the disk writer are NOT NES cartridges at all, but something with a completely different pinout to expose a 128KB ROM to the writer. And a VCC and GND to feed the chip.

[@strangevision99]

23:13 I see Square's idol game which saw a collaboration between Final Fantasy and Metroid game designers. That's worth a like on it's own. Good video too, but that was a surprise to see, I know about it from researching Uematsu's early video game music. Edit So you went on to cover it immediately after! I should have waited.

[@emmettturner9452]

If the Nt Mini works similarly to the Hi-Def NES, I don't think this setup is as much "original" FDS hardware as you might think. You see, Hi-Def NES does not digitize analog audio. To get digital audio for HDMI it must use the FPGA to replicate the audio hardware inside various cartridges including the FDS RAM adapter. This makes that aspect of the FDS hardware as much of a replica as the rest of the clone console. If the Nt Mini also has cartridge audio then, great, but my understanding is that they wouldn't spend the money when this is a cost-reduced Nt and the Hi-Def NES already does it this way. That said, audio through the cartridge port was not necessarily part of some early plan to make the FDS. Many if not most consoles had this. In fact, many also had VIDEO through the cartridge port. This is how Intellivision and Atari 5200 and others made Atari VCS adapters. It's also how we got POKEY music in 7800 games, where the system deliberately used obsolete audio hardware to push the cost of better audio onto the cartridge. Speaking of NES not having the pin, well, the NES Castlevania III Dracula's Curse game pak definitely has the pin on the card edge connector. Even if it goes nowhere useful (it also routes to the expansion port) it was clearly meant to be bridged at the EXP port to enable expansion audio. Konami obviously designed it that way for a reason. Even though they recomposed the game without it before release, they definitely had some reason to think it might happen at some point.

[@mattbeaudoin1]

i imported one of these last year and i love it! the disk-flipping and loading times might be a little tedious, but it's my preferred way to play the original Zelda and Metroid. mine came with a little manga about how to use the disk-rewriting kiosks.

[@johnsimon8457]

By the time the NES was released, they could put mapper chips on the roms, which allowed them to make larger games which meant deluxe games like Metroid and Zelda could be brought to the US... On the other hand manufacturing cartridges was way more expensive compared to just copying to magnetic media so on the FDS risks of having an unsellable inventory of lousy games were way lower ... it’s kinda like digital only indie games of today- sell a thousand, sell a million, it‘s all the same. The PC-88 and Apple II an even lower barrier to entry outside of the expensive hardware. Aaaah! I wish I lived in bubble era japan!

[@noskap]

Anyone that wants more stuff like this, there's a channel called Famicom Dojo who has been making videos on the FDS since 07. They're really great, check them out!

[@churblefurbles]

Yea my uncle had one, didn't realize It was that special at the time especially since he had the other less legit "game doctors" as well, which were of course superior, they loaded the entire game into memory.

[@xxnike0629xx]

I am impressed. John actually managed to fix this? I’ve heard about the problem is the rubber belt part that often is the culprit for hardware failure. Interesting to say the least. Nintendo should really port over exclusive games from this to the Switch.

[@michaelmay9728]

Loved Mario Paint, had it as a kid

[@redcrimson1028]

What kind of tv is that in the background?

[@PROShineKITO]

I always pic famicom disk versions, special features some interesting in this disks, music, or the save feature always makes me pic this version over the others...

[@Clesarie]

I absolutely love my twin sharp famicom. Really wish the nes would have only been the disk system. Probably my favorite nintendo system.

[@stabinghobo57]

So the Family Com Disc System allowed saves and better music 🎶 Is that correct?

[@johnsimon8457]

stabinghobo57 it was a keen workaround for the 32kb limitation of the original limitation of famicom carts

[@themoaspecial]

Castlevania 3 had awesome music on the FDS!

[@tomparkes78]

If the disk drive fails or gets a error message it's because you've crushed or trapped the orange wire at some point check the video at 9.15