DF Direct Weekly #95: Are PC Minimum Specs OUT OF CONTROL? Stadia Dead, GeForce Now 4080 Alive!

[@PookaBot]

The problem is that these increases in minimum specifications are not justified by the games in question usually. Forspoken is an unoptimized mess even on PS5. There are games with far lower specs that look better that are several years old.

[@elrey1717]

True

[@divertiti]

What are those games?

[@IIIdelinquentIII]

Yea forespokens performance and graphics don't justify the specs

[@Anon1370]

watching forspoken game on my 4k oled and im not impressed it doesn't look as next gen as I expect I guess lol thinking of dipping my toe into vr cause maybe that will make a difference you are getting more worth out your graphic card maybe if you do vr i am thinking

[@lucasmancini2]

@@divertiti far cry 5, far cry 6, every assasins creed since unity, control, plagues tale innocence + requiem, god of war, spider man pc, cyberpunk, halo infinite … there are many more

[@doctorcrankyflaps1724]

Rich's face when Alex mentioned sex toys. Priceless.

[@Cogglesz]

"Not even a minute in guys c'mon"

[@abhi_sh3_k]

I'm dead 🤣

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

timestamp? xD

[@R3endevous]

It's soo goood hahaha. Really thinking: "ffs alex what are you saying now?" 0:29

[@RitaMaSTeR]

0:27 hahahaha

[@electricindigoball1244]

I think Alex is missing the point regarding Forspoken's PC requirements. The point, at least the way I see it, is that the difference in visual fidelity doesn't seem worth the increase in system requirements. John even spent a big chunk of DF's recent video about Forspoken talking about how in multiple ways Forspoken looks worse than FF XV, a game released in 2016 and designed with the PS4 and Xbox One in mind.

[@TheSocialGamer]

These guys are all opinionated and feel like they know best. 🤣👌

[@drewcipher896]

John talked about how FFXV looked better here too, but Alex hasn't even seen the PC version yet so how could he make a comment on the way it looks.

[@electricindigoball1244]

@@drewcipher896 Agreed. It feels a bit premature to say whether the requirements are reasonable or not without even seeing how the game actually looks and runs which is why I find the whole segment a bit strange especially when Richard made that comment about the GTX 1060. I doubt that anyone actually believed that the GTX 1060 would be able to play all games at 1080p high forever. Meanwhile it's perfectly reasonable to look at Forspoken gameplay footage and say based on that that the hardware requirements do not seem reasonable.

[@teddyholiday8038]

Welp, now we know. Game has broken RT and is a technical mess on PC. The requirements are ridiculous.

[@Pisscan]

Callisto Execs: Let’s launch a single player game that’s buggy on day 1. Consoomers: I’m not buying this. Callisto Execs: Why? 💀

[@KingKrouch]

Nah if you've seen the JRPG bad port defense force on Steam, they'd buy it regardless and defend it. Using the term consoomer wrong there.

[@ShanGamer1981]

People dont fall for broken shit anymore, i skipped anthem, avengers, this one and ant more that come out

[@ShanGamer1981]

Even didnt buy bf 2042

[@nifftbatuff676]

Consoomers: no, just let buy a remake of a game that we have aready played a dozen time.

[@Banning133]

Yes. I've been saying it for a while now; steep minimum requirements are a band-aid fix to developers reducing the amount of time spent on optimization. Performance hardly matters when the LATEST hardware can just brute force it. And almost no one is testing for performance on low to mid range hardware, so few people are even aware this is happening. Just look at Atomic Heart, they're already acknowledging the performance impact that Denuvo will have. Their solution? "Just turn on DLSS lol"

[@ArielCleirigh]

Optimization take time and money and companies dont want to pay for extra work so people need a better pc or just buy a console pick one.

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Do PC gamers want graphics optimized to look worse than a PS5 console?

[@Banning133]

@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 Considering I didn't say that, no. There are ways to optimize games without sacrificing visual fidelity.

[@blackenedjustice503]

@@Banning133 even then, low graphics options can actually look worse so they run better but no it all looks and runs the same, so basically the only settings that matter are DoF MotBlur Antialiasing and maybe SSAO sometimes... Its weird because older games actually had a difference between ultra and low graphics, today its all the same

[@YouTubeCensors]

Seems that's one benefit of console vs PC. Our games will get optimized more often., Whereas Pleb PC race are stuck with unoptimized glitchy messes until they fork over the cash to become OC master race or wait until that becomes the new Pleb PC standard and remain stuck in limbo.. with New games.

[@JamesSturges]

I dread the day when Rich forgets to tell us that ringing the bell for notifications is only *notionally* instant. The world will probably plunge into chaos.

[@-PVL93-]

Everybody gangsta until Alex doesn't say "und auf wiedersehen" at the end of his videos

[@michaelmonstar4276]

@@-PVL93- - I read "Alexa"... Imagine if Alexa ended her responses with "und... auf wiedersehen." out of nowhere. 👀

[@elizabethagudelo7179]

I think the problem with forspoken is that it just doesn't look like it should require that much and based on the ps5 tests it does look like the engine itself is not working properly and something is broken, that's important with system requirements I think, not how high they are but how well the visuals justify it. Reminds me of when the PC version of rdr2 came out and prior to launch it looked like the game was asking too much, but then you play the game and it turns out the console equivalent settings are basically a mix of medium and low with the higher settings clearly being meant for enthusiast rigs and future proofing. Rerurnal's system requirements caused less of a tizzy because returnal looks like a next generation game, forspoken looks worse than ff15

[@vollkerball1]

Luminous engine never worked as intended. Hell the fact is running on base ps4 is nothing short of a miracle

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

I think it looks truly next gen. Higher resolution textures and faster traversal,through an open world... If it runs at 60 fps on a PS5, they must have optimized quite a bit

[@sean70729]

I was thinking exactly the same thing,

[@notlekrut]

@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 Forspoken?? I seriously hope you're joking. "Higher resolution textures and faster traversal" In what way is that next gen? They're not doing anything special. That's not a high bar when Spider-man achieved even faster traversal on PS4 in 2018 with also really high quality textures, even better on PS5, and similarly Horizon Forbidden West. The only thing I'll give you is high textures, they're quite good, on their own at least because as a whole the visuals are beyond disappointing, it's just abysmally dull and flat. "If it runs at 60 fps on a PS5, they must have optimized quite a bit" No no no. Not at all. It runs at 900p... Not even 1080p... It can go down to 720p and even have fps go below 60fps. Stop defending this trash. That's a terrible level of performance for the visuals it has which are so far from amazing It also just does not look next gen at all. If DFs video on it doesn't show how broken just it's lightning is... I don't know what to tell you. Texture quality is just one part of it. Lightning is broken. Shadows have terrible draw distance with no long distance shadow fallback, so shadows far away just don't exist. Fog everywhere to hide detail. The whole world is just flat and bland. These guys are literally using baked lightning, and yet still have worse lightning than games with actually dynamic lighting. It's a technical disaster. I'm serious, if you think it looks next gen I seriously wonder what games you play.

[@audiosmurf]

@@0ooTheMAXXoo0 It looks pretty bad, especially the lighting. The engine just wasn't made for this generation of consoles. Pretty much why I think they went with Unreal for FF16 instead of Luminous.

[@SirCalalot]

1:02:05 - Unreal 3 initially only had support for white specular highlights in shaders, which made everything have that “wet” look. Later on, around the time of UDK, they added support for coloured specular highlights which helps to create a lot more varied surfaces such as metals.

[@Cogglesz]

Unrelated but i did get into PC gaming around UE3's time. I was kind of surprised by the hit it had on your system compared to prior gens, poor video playback etc but then i feel also we kinda got burned with ports back in the mid late 00's. I appreciate the little bit of info about the heavy specular effects. I'm sure we had a period around MW's time when rain was as popular as desert shades of brown 😅

[@dan_loeb]

strange since bioshock, a ue2.5 title utilized colored specular maps that tinted specularity. might have been one of a bunch of things they modified in the engine for bioshock though. edit: or it could be they also had a material mask or other layer in other channels that made the specular textures appear colored when exported.

[@polskastylezz187]

what is is funny is glenn saw dead space 1 not making enough money and no it gappens again

[@MurCurieux]

cool, never knew that!

[@mechanicalmonk2020]

Turns out none of them were qualified to answer that question

[@gedaliaw]

Q5: The most memorable show attended, was bar far the most entertaining answer to a supporter question ever. So many great stories and clearly so many great stories that we'll never be allowed to hear. What happens at a conference stays at a conference!

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Games like Doom Eternal fly in the face of forcing PC specs to be ridiculous.

[@RealHero101111]

ye that game was flyin almost constant 75fps on high/ultra on rx580 4gb

[@bltzcstrnx]

Please understand how console generation works so you don't get confused. All requirements are tied into that, RTX 2070 super will be the norm for recommended because of Series X and PS5. Previously it is the GTX 1060 because of PS4 and Xbox One. Sadly, PC requirements always tied to console available at the time. This is the year PS4 and Xbox One got left behind, hence the increase in requirements. This will be the norm, not exceptions.

[@mryellow6918]

@@bltzcstrnx wow, way to let everything fly over your head

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@mryellow6918 ?

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

@@mryellow6918 ?

[@CodyHimselfXI]

I was part of another massive company layoff, busting my tail and always going above and beyond...it just goes to show, hard work does not pay off. (at least they gave me a good reference so, I guess it sort of does.) Also, I hope that cloud gaming stays a subset and refrains from ever becoming a standard. Physical media for life!!!

[@ArielCleirigh]

Cloud gaming will be a reality most likely in 2 generation around 2035 and yes physical disc all day.

[@mechanicalmonk2020]

@@ArielCleirigh physical disk is already not a reality anymore

[@clementrousseau3571]

Physical is already dead unfortunately. Except for the Switch, maybe. On the other consoles, when it’s not 40gb patches you need to download, it’s actually the whole game. At this point discs are almost entirely dependent on an internet connection and worthless on their own.

[@clementrousseau3571]

@@GM-Shenmue true but thankfully there aren’t that many collections to begin with. Also Nintendo is the only one that updates its own cartridges with the latest versions of their games. I have BOTW in its 1.6 version on a cartridge, which is great. The main problem is how the bigger ones (like 32gb) are expensive to produce and editors are not paying for them. Also : no install is pretty amazing.

[@coliander4180]

In 10 years time, cloud gaming will be as big as Netflix and Amazon Prime Video is now. Who even buys Blu-Ray movies now besides enthusiasts? The only advantage of physical media is in its resale value. But most people will forego that for the convenience factor of downloads. Once there are services out there that allow you to rent game streams the same way that you rent movies from streaming services now, at a video quality comparable to Netflix/Amazon vs Blu-ray, that will be the default.

[@jonnyX06]

The RTX 4080 requirement for SporeFoken is definitely due to VRAM. The demo says it needs minimum 12GB to be able to use the highest quality textures, and probably takes more if you factor in a 2160p resolution and all other settings being at max.

[@Glotttis]

This is why my 3080 10GB aged like milk. It still has plenty of raw power, but keeps getting bogged down by low VRAM amount. Especially in games with RT support, I found that enabling RT consumes additional 3-4GB of VRAM, so lately it's been a dance of compromises for me. And yes the card is now considered last gen, but I was already starting to run into these issues when it was still "current gen" last year. O well, lesson learned.

[@rayyanabdulwajid7681]

It shouldn't need more than 2gb Vram as it looks no better than a ps4 game , and ps4 has 2gb vram

[@1GTX1]

@@rayyanabdulwajid7681 PS4 has 8GB vram lol

[@hanspennyloaf335]

I have the 3080 10 gb and never run into this issue. What games are you playing that require so much vram?

[@1GTX1]

@@hanspennyloaf335 Low vram can cause microstuttering on ultra settings that is hard to notice, some games have microstuttering regardless of vram capacity so it would be hard to tell.

[@VolkanKorki]

The last supporter question was awesome. Good call on picking that one to feature on the show. Always a pleasure to watch you guys talk about things you're genuinely passionate about!

[@technohippy7715]

Is it bad that when I hear that The Callisto Protocol has failed to meet expectations, my first thought is "Yay! That means it will join Games Pass soon!"?

[@joshuaDstarks]

Nope. I actually go through the store all the time and tell myself, “don’t buy this…it might be on GP soon enough”.

[@goob8945]

Kinda but I get it. I’d rather the game was better because it doesn’t matter WHEN I play it, just how good it is

[@infinitysynthesis]

We don't want bad games on game pass. The CP isn't a bad game though imo. It's just underwhelming.

[@applehazeva2739]

xD haha can see that.

[@applehazeva2739]

I think more people would play Dead Space with EA Play through Ultimate

[@williamcrms]

I'm left puzzled, not by the minimum specs for a game released in 2023, but by the fact that the visuals on display don't appear to justify the hardware specs. No sugarcoating, this is a poor showing for the Luminous Engine and it does not compare favorably at all to other PS5 exclusives (and even cross-gen games) we've seen so far. Yes, we get nice hair physics and loads of particle effects, but there are also lots of visual regressions from FF15 (a game that came out almost 7 years ago now). Much like Arkham Knight, I suspect that there is some CPU hamstringing that has resulted in poor performance and low pixel counts on PS5, and I'd bet that these issues will plague PC.

[@cyberjunk7258]

do not be puzzled, this always happens. does not even have to be on minimum specs witcher 3 ran at 1080p/30 fps on a base PS4 exact same machine also ran RDR 2 at 1080p/30 FPS 3 years later. some devs will use the same hardware to achieve similar performance while getting enormous image quality bumps, I'm sure

[@mryellow6918]

@@cyberjunk7258 the witcher 3 also ran like crap.

[@devonmarr9872]

Maybe if games actually looked as good as the system requirments I wouldn't be as irritated.

[@Ghost-pb4ts]

Exactly This bother us gamers even more when we have played more realistic graphical games created by other devs in mid range system I know that we are not devs who knows about cutting Edge gaming tech But still some older games looks as nice as modern games and That's the reason why ppl say rdr2, ffxv, and many other gorgeous games looks beautiful even by modern standards and runs without stuttering and all other issues

[@Anon1370]

me with my 4k oled watching forspoken trailers .............well i am not that in awe of this game...^_^

[@sinom]

The main problem isn't actually minimum specs themselves getting out of control. The problem is the cost of those low end parts rising so much. In 2016 you could get a 1060 or 480 for $250 and play basically every game at high settings and pretty much max everything out for $350 with a 1070. Not if you want to get a baseline card like the 3060 you have to shill out $370 and aren't guaranteed high settings in everything. That's a pretty big price increase for what is supposed to be the same "performance level" but in a newer generation. And that card by now is already almost 2 years old. When the other cards were that old you could easily get them for sub $200.

[@MrEffectfilms]

Times have changed, we've now had a worldwide pandemic turn our world upside down, a worldwide chip shortage, and the tyranny of scalpers which really hurt the GPU and CPU market. Things have improved since then but it will likely be some time before things go back to the way they were pre 2020.

[@EthernetDasCoisas]

C'mon guys.. reasonable? 3070 30fps? LMAO

[@bltzcstrnx]

Lowest denominator is always current gen consoles. Which now have performance around RTX 2080 super. So make sure your PC are at least that level of performance and preferably above it.

[@Allyouknow5820]

Gotta shill for Nvidia 😂

[@CaptToilet]

Wait till UE5 games start popping out. You will shit your bricks. Silent Hill 2 requirements that released are a good indicator of where we are heading.

[@bman7103]

@@bltzcstrnx lol the consoles have 2070 gpu in them. 3070 is way more powerful.

[@EthernetDasCoisas]

@@bltzcstrnx The consoles are somewhere between a 2060s or a 2070, more reasonably a Rx6600-6600xt

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

I think the issue here is just that more and more games and tech companies want more and more money for less and less work and value. The eye-watering cost of graphics cards for what is essentially either minimal graphical improvement or just to power through a bad PC port, is unforgivable.

[@izuthree]

The extended cross-gen period is also likely part to blame, because it's less clear cut where the transition from 'game with PS4 as a baseline' to 'game with PS5 as a baseline' is, so it's harder to gauge for most where you do actually need the more performant hardware for a real purpose. Though yeah, the bad PC ports fuzzying that even further really doesn't help either.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@izuthree I'm not sure I grant the premise of this "console base-line stuff." Maybe thats 'how things work' but I don't think it should be, ya know? I just think as many games as possible should be made playable on as many PCs as possible. I know this tech arms-race is all about the money and getting people to upgrade and pay-out constantly, but I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility that games should be super well optimised, and have lots and lots of options so as to be playable on say, no older than 10 year hardware. Even if you have to set the graphics to 'super low,' hey, thats something. Games should be about gameplay after all, right? It just gets me down that gamers have totally bought into corporate apologia.

[@HorusTortoise]

Nintendo has ignored latest and greatest tech for over a decade and they have the most market share. New shiny isn’t enough. The games need to be good games, and these days it’s just a lot of the same thing with a new coat of paint.

[@uhurunuru6609]

​ You might not "Grant" it, but that's how it is, and always has been where games are made for a specific consoles concerned. The issue was obscured by PS4/XB1, because they were only equal to a low end PC even in 2013, and so the minimum that gen was 4 cores, or a 2 core 4 thread CPU. Look at that Forspoken minimum, CPU is the i7 3770 (4 core 8 thread), for an 8 core PS5, ironically that was a high end gaming CPU in 2012, before the PS4 even released. Minimum is what's "Officially Supported", 8 cores for CPU, and 6 GB VRAM for GPU, hence a GTX 1060 6GB (2016 GPU), also remember Ultra/RT is for high end PC, 5% of us.

[@korinogaro]

3:42 "it says something about the game... that is very intense". Interesting way of saying that optimization is fucked.

[@Lornext]

Yes, PC Minimum specs are getting too high.

[@keech100]

its the Minimum part thats the key I think

[@fafski1199]

Yep, there's still the last gen consoles that are looking more and more like they aren't vanishing anytime soon. Plus, there's the Series S, the Steam Deck and the other PC handhelds all to consider when designing a game. All of which are highly likely to stick around for some time yet. The Minimum specs on PC, are already pulling way ahead of all of them in some games. I've seen minimum requirements of a GTX 1660/RX 590 or above, listed more than a few times in the past couple of years. Hell, 3 out of the top 5 most popular GPU's on Steam Survey don't even reach that amount of performance (1650, 1060 & 1050Ti). It's on PC anyway, it's not as though you can't scale things back like the resolution, frame rates or the graphic settings or even gain a bit of a boost up, via using upscaling techniques like FSR.

[@modermonkula]

GPU price's are too high

[@jonathanlee726]

Absolutely loved the discussion on favorite events and memories! You guys are awesome.

[@izuthree]

The question right at the end about memorable shows was a really nice one, mainly because it's always a pleasure to let the genuine passion you guys have for this stuff shine through. Some of those stories were a lot of fun but there's genuine enthusiasm there and I'll always enjoy that.

[@joshuaDstarks]

Yes, specs are out of control.

[@bltzcstrnx]

No they're not, specs are based on lowest denominator which is the current gen consoles. Previously it's the PS4 and PS4 Pro to some extent, circa GTX 1060 performance. Nowadays it's based on Series X and PS5 which have performance around RTX 2080 super.

[@Jigsaw2383]

@@bltzcstrnxyes they are, a ps3 game asking for a 4080 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@Jigsaw2383 oh, that's one just the first. Be prepared for a lot of them coming forward. Basically most new games targeting current generation only will have similar requirements. You can see Jedi Survivor for example with RTX 2070 or RX 6700 recommended requirement.

[@Jigsaw2383]

@@bltzcstrnx not all companies hire beginners.

[@Jev55]

I think what you guys said around the 13 minute mark sums it up. The current gen console hardware is good hardware! There is the general opinion amongst PC gamers that consoles are crazy outdated and the hardware sucks. So they are thinking a console port should be able to run on a PC from 2016.

[@LarryAsberryJr]

I've made this point for a while. Consoles are very powerful. They're leaving some perf on the table with the sun 3.0 Ghz clocks but still, they're very, very good!

[@bern9642]

When people say minimum specs are getting out of control, it is dependent on what they see and experience on their screens. If a game has higher minimum specs, they expect the game to look or run better than similar games with lower minimum specs. I think y'all missed the point.

[@joesterling4299]

2:46 - Sorry. Hard disagree on PC specs being reasonable. 24GB system RAM, an i7-8700K plus a 3070 for 30 fps at 1440p is nowhere near reasonable. And that's just the middle tier. The 2160p tier is even more ludicrous. This game is just not optimized properly, and the devs are leaning on beefy, expensive hardware to barely pick up their slack.

[@Chicky_Lumps]

It literally looks like a game I should have been able to get ~30-40 FPS @900p on, back when a GTX 1050 laptop was all I had.

[@transtechgirl8786]

I'd have played Callisto Protocol on PC, but it was so broken at launch I wasn't going to touch it with a barge pole. Now there are other things I want to play. They did this to themselves.

[@Bleaky4life]

Easily the biggest gaming disappointment of 2022. I feel bad for all the hard work the devs put in. The poor performance completely destroys the experience.

[@Christopher_K_Dot]

How’s the performance now on pc ?

[@transtechgirl8786]

@@Christopher_K_Dot better but not great. They did at least solve the worst of the stutter.

[@Renk1]

It was mostly fixed quite quickly, in a week or two. My main technical complaint now is that it's an AMD sponsored title meaning no DLSS. The game would really need it. Looks gorgrous with all the ray-tracing.

[@TheNerd]

Forspoken needs 3 times the amount of compute compared to FF15 and looks half as good... And I'm not talking about the ambient occlusion. the world design simply looks like the trainees of Square Enix made this stuff. The only meshes in this game not created by the trainees of Square Enix, are the characters. Even I (as an amateur Blender Artist) could pull this off and I am VERY VEEERY VERY far away from what the professionals usually create.

[@husix8876]

Are we living in the Downgrade decade where every game is worse than its previous game ? we live in a time where only 2 good games release in a year and the rest is trash or forgettable

[@Ozzianman]

AAA has increasingly become irrelevant to me when Indies output games that are so much more fun at a far lower price.

[@Secret_Takodachi]

Be grateful to exist in the PC ecosystem: things are even older and less relevant in the console ecosystems lol. Thank god PC indies!

[@xShikari]

This will not prove true this year. Just the first quarter with Atomic Heart, Sons of the Forest, The Last of Us, RE4 and more will already destroy your comment. Of course if you like a game or not depends on the taste of a person.

[@Taijifufu]

Alex's face when Rich says they have review code for consoles but not the PC version. "😮‍💨"

[@UNr34]

"low end" gpus cost 5 times more compared to 5 years ago so yeah it is viable to expect my 1060 to still work.

[@nahuelcutrera]

this is the problem with pc... so you have more powerful gpus available, then they will target the new ones, who needs to make an efficient game when the people can pay 2000 for a gpu that bruteforce every design problem the game has. Great, less development time for the companies.

[@Mustafa_9628]

These videos are really growing on me Im not a fan of long videos in general but man, theses videos can get really interesting sometimes and im so thankful for the work DF is putting here for us Thank you ❤

[@CharcharoExplorer]

Just a reminder that on Metro Exodus - the Extreme settings at 4K with RT were de facto made to never exceed 10GB (because of the 3080 10GB?) and this means extreme texture pop in in some areas for the game... Even on a 4090. So it isnt only AMD.

[@Allyouknow5820]

Yes but it is DF, the only ones that have not done a very negative 4070 Ti review 😂

[@mydogsgfhasmoretestosteron7140]

@@Allyouknow5820 it has one major negative aspect and that's the price.

[@Healcraft]

one thing not to forget in the first discussion, games requiring an xx60 series card of yesteryear isnt the same as now, as the prices have gone up 1.5-2x if not more on the top end. Spending as much as a gtx 970 cost even adjusted for inflation, will now give you less than 60 fps on new games at the current popular resolution (1440P) at similar settings

[@LewisHamiltonMSPR]

My RTX 3070, a mid-range card at best, cost the same as my flipping GTX 980Ti, which was the fastest card you could get your hands on.

[@LE_NOMAD90]

Really enjoyed this episode. In regards to Sony's marketing on system hardware. Its really strange how quiet Sony has been lately with the VR 2 headset. Always worrying how they decide to show these things off then go silent. Having PS Vita flashbacks.

[@mazziecat]

I feel like the death of PC gaming has been greatly exaggerated(again). If you're OK with buying a 2nd hand GPU you can easily get something that matches the PS5/XSX for 600-700€.

[@elecjack1]

I think recommended specs are out of control on PC. I am not sure the devs really know what to put. Look at Hogwarts Legacy as an example who originally had a 1070 as the minimum requirements and changed it to a 960. At least they put in sufficient notes for what this was based on so you can see what they were aiming for and why this was their requirements. When they shifted everything over and added the 960 as the minimum, I also noticed they removed the upscale "performance" and "quality" on the others and for the 1060p60fps for the 1070 now requires an SSD for these results. This was a smart move and It is a step forward when devs put what you get for those specs. You guys are right that this matters more now than ever with FSR and DLSS in the mix, raytracing, and many other things that can affect performance heavily. I think the question is the same as always though. Do the specs warrant the quality of the game? This has to be taken on a game-to-game basis. Forspoken is lining up so far for the answer being no. A 1060 6GB for 720p30fps is understandable if the game is a step up in progress. This game doesn't sound like it is and even the PS5 demo was horrible in its performance which doesn't instill confidence when even the target console isn't looking all that great. That being said, I still do appreciate that they put the resolution and framerate so we have a better idea. These specs are even more meaningless without it.

[@christopherfortney2544]

Chances are Hogwarts Legacy they have had time to do some QA and get things more optimized with newer builds etc so that is a positive note. Forspoken just wasn't ready enough.

[@Wobbothe3rd]

Modern consoles have LESS memory than 16gb total, shared between system RAM and VRAM. There is no excuse for a PC port from current gen consoles to have such steep requirements. It's obvious that recommended specs are being used for marketing purposes.

[@Leebabins]

Tell us more, PC and a console developer who knows how to port games... If you don't like it buy a console.

[@thanksbetotap]

PC operating systems use more memory than console operating systems because they have to serve as general-purpose platforms for running tons of apps at the same time. Consoles only need RAM for (mostly) one game exclusively at a time. That’s why :)

[@Plumtopia]

@@thanksbetotap not triple though. 16 GB of VRAM plus 32GB of system ram? That tells me: memory leak and the developers just didn't care

[@SystemBD]

"Spofoken"? Why not "Bespoken"? It's more on brand.

[@KingfishWatch]

I should note what Sporfoken is supposed to be first game using DirectStorage on pc, which i believe system requirements reflect well

[@coliander4180]

Still looks like New World, though. Not a good tradeoff.

[@xerxesmontes9828]

What a great weekly podcast on the newest in the pc and console space. Thank you DF.

[@eSKAone-]

GT7 is the killer app. My Thrustmaster T300 + Wheel Stand Pro V2 + IKEA Poäng are waiting 💟

[@thecaneater]

2:57 WTF? It looks like a Switch game, and they want you to have a 3070!?

[@jaredweiman2987]

I'm not sure that minimum specs are out of control, but I'm really tired of developers relying on the high end GPU market to carry them instead of just spending time on better optimization. Forspoken is a key offender here.

[@AndreThompson925]

Last February, I caved and picked up a prebuilt PC with 32GB of ram, RTX 3070 and I'm already worried that it's just an 'okay' computer.

[@8thVigil]

You're fine. I am still rocking GTX 970.

[@brandon_nope]

Lol I just recently upgraded to 32 GB of ram

[@goob8945]

If you are ok using high (rarely) for AAA games you’ll be fine. There’s barely any visual difference for good performance

[@applehazeva2739]

This industry is just sad. Forza, GOW and RDR2 look better than 80% of the entire Gaming landscape while only needing reasonable hardware, but Games of today need an Chenobyl Reactor

[@AndreThompson925]

Just for clarity, I want to be able to run some RT on a 1440p monitor and would like to have 60 fps (otherwise I would just play my Series X/PS5)

[@LarryAsberryJr]

Great response to the PC specs. That said, Gotham Knights was egregious for the performance we received. I enjoyed the game but that performance was a thorn in my side.

[@fredstone4395]

Considering resident evil 2 came out in 2019 and can run at 1440p 60fps with just a 1660 super that came out in 2016, these pc requirements for forspoken are too high

[@VV-js4vd]

But they aim for the base PS4 and Xbox One

[@Jigsaw2383]

@@VV-js4vd still, with ps3 graphics that game should run @200fps ultra on ps5

[@MrEffectfilms]

Not really a fair comparison considering that was developed for the PS4 and Xbox One. That's like saying because because Halo 3 runs great on PC and the 360 that Halo Infinite shouldn't have the requirements it has.

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

ps5 games that stream stuff off of SSD might have large vram requirements on PC since there is no fast SSD guaranteed... Even the fastest PC systems might not stream data fast enough consistently enough... So more stuff has to be in memory vs streaming ...

[@Fallen608]

In this case they should add a seperate spec requirement if a fast SSD and directstorage are supported.

[@Alias_Anybody]

Forspoken looks nowhere near THAT good, especially considering "minimum" seems to target 720_30 and not 1080_60. With those requirements it better be the next Crysis.

[@steel5897]

Next Crysis, more like next Arkham Knight.

[@ZeitGeist_TV]

The 10,000 employees they fired nearly matches the total amount of staff members they'll add to the books if the Activision acquisition goes through.

[@Lilbee730]

Nah, system requirements aren't out of control, it's just clearly not a well made game. Plenty of better looking games than forspoken running on much lesser hardware. And even then, system requirements are often more of a guideline than a rule.

[@gunnargates9937]

I love these podcasts to death. It's so nice to have seriously rigorous and interesting technical discussion, but the passion and care that all of you have for gaming is what really makes it :)

[@sellingacoerwa8318]

They're going to be the death of Alex. I feel like I'm watching him have a complete breakdown in slow motion each week over PC gaming problems

[@ruinrake]

Please do that 16GB-32GB memory test. I’d really like to know what’s up with that.

[@Healcraft]

i would guess it makes not one ounce of difference

[@colbyboucher6391]

Are you nearly maxing out those 16gb? No? Fine then.

[@MA-qu3hi]

@@Healcraft why would a dev put out specs that influences less people the play their game? It's counter intuitive to recommend specs that don't make a difference

[@Healcraft]

@@MA-qu3hi devs seem to be unaware what specs are really plus its hard to make a spec list, and who knows who even makes it, could be an intern. Maybe they had like 600 chrome tabs open and tested it

[@AndyGilleand]

Alex, despite you knowing people who use Ultra Wide, and as nice of an addition it is, it is absolutely not a common enough thing for it to be assumed that developers will look into it. That being said, I do think PC games should never be hardcoded with a particular aspect ratio, just like with a particular refresh rate, because who knows what may be the standard in the future.

[@sscillitani]

I'm fine with CPU and GPU requirements going up since the next gen consoles are the baseline. The memory requirements are what have me scratching my head since 32GB is way overkill in any game I've ever played to this point. Would love to see some analysis on this when these games come out.

[@mryellow6918]

32gbs is alot more reasonable compared to the cpu requirements.

[@THU31]

Keep in mind that PC is a multi-tasking device. People sometimes have lots of stuff in the background (Discord, game capture, browser and more). When I had 16 GB, there were times my RAM was getting close to full with very demanding games. Having 32 GB makes sure it does not become a problem. But Forspoken is a completely unoptimized mess. The graphics do not justify the requirements at all.

[@sscillitani]

@@THU31 I'm well aware, and if I was streaming while gaming I'd probably have 32GB already. But if you're primarily just gaming you can easily browse the web and listen to music while gaming on 16GB. I'd honestly be happy to upgrade if it actually means better performance in games. I'm just doubtful that's the case here.

[@ApotheosisDivine69]

Would love to see more D.F. direct weekly with Tom in it! Always love the original triumvirate, too!

[@plume...]

I'm SO glad I meet recommended spec for Returnal, really looking forward to that one! Thing is I find, as with any game, leave everything on high settings except turn shadows down to medium and you gain an extra 20fps anyway!!

[@steel5897]

I actually cannot tell the difference between high and ultra most of the time. Hell with many settings even medium I cannot tell a difference, except for the FPS boost. Whenever I see people trying to max out every game on a midrange rig and then leave negative reviews calling games bad ports... makes me cringe a ton. Many times those games will play and look great at lower settings, idk why people like that don't use the damn settings menu properly.

[@vasilije94]

@@steel5897 there is a visible difference between high and maxed out game. Its not honest to say it makes no difference. If you really think that there is no real difference, you either have bad eyesight or play on 720p. The other part of the question, yes, most of the games are just bad console ports. That is the truth. Not all of them, but most of them are. Especially back in ps3/xbox360 and ps4/xbox one era. Its getting somewhat better, but still many games are basic ports to PC. And it is only after bad reception that many get some fixes. I mean as much as i like elden ring, you cant deny it was shitty PC port. Like we had shitty stuttering every time a new asset is loaded and it dint matter what PC you had. So yea. 80 % of the games are just crappy ports to PC, 10% of the games are passable ports and 10% are good ports like days gone and spiderman. Here is a simple fact, if it runs worse on equally strong PC as console, ITS A BAD PORT. Its simple as that.

[@DDD-xx4mg]

I like to play Ultra all settings and DLDSR x2.25 for lower specked tiles if there enough fps to burn @ 3440x1440. High fidelity is most important feature for me in games

[@plume...]

@@steel5897 Same. The tiny difference between high and ultra is completely undiscernible to me and not worth the often big hit in fps. I never bother with it. The difference I find with shadows from higher settings to lower settings is sharpness on the edges of them which just isn't realistic anyway, so I'm more than happy to turn them down to (ironically) get more realistic looking softer shadows, and a nice fps boost :)

[@twocityfoodies8476]

Keep the layoffs in perspective...the COVID tech hiring surge was never sustainable. MS hired 75,000 people since 2019. That's a ton of growth and only now have cut 10k. That is still 65k employee growth in 4 years.

[@cun7us]

I've never quite understood how some PC ports can be so bad, seeing as how all games are made on PC using similar hardware. Like The Callisto Protocol having terrible shader compilation stutter on PC, but not on console. Surely, the developers didn't experience this during development or playback, so how is this possible?

[@ralfiejr34]

Callisto is fixed now. Runs great on my merc xtx

[@cun7us]

@@ralfiejr34 yeah I heard they fixed it which is good, but doesn't explain why it launched like that in the first place.

[@modermonkula]

I think its time/money/not understanding PC gaming. There are a few excellent PC ports God Of War, Days Gone, Vanquish to name some.

[@apo75018]

I work as QA for a relatively big firm and i can tell you: games also run very poorly on our (often top of the line) PCs, sometimes up to very late in the dev process. Thing is, we are so used to testing games that run like absolute garbage that we progressively grow desensitized from the ""smaller"" perf issues that players can find unacceptable (sometimes rightfully so).

[@eSKAone-]

How can you say that the price for PSVR2 is super high? Just compare that price with even less capable VR headsets. Plus you need a PC that is way more expensive than a PS5.

[@InnuendoXP]

18:00 - on RAM requirements, it's been done to bind the fidelity of certain effects to the output resolution, so while the "textures" setting is the same between 1080p or 4K, the shaders, tessellation.etc are all having their fidelity bumped up when loaded in proportionately as you crank up the pixels. Could possibly be related.

[@Nintenboy01]

amazing how the consoles make do with just 16GB total RAM

[@MadBrit26]

Very tempted by VR2, but really needs to have PC compatibility due to the cost but the lack of software is the main issue.

[@Patrick-tw7nr]

Alex’s recommended setting for PC games I want to play for the win!!

[@XZ-III]

crin-geh

[@PrefoX]

The Last Clockwinder is not from Cyan Worlds (Myst), they just supported them with the VR stuff. The VR titel from Cyan worlds is called Firmament.

[@jez49647]

Alex: "Just imagine if they fired 10,000 game journalists." Yes... just imagine it...😏

[@sean70729]

The difference between being optimized for consoles and optimized for one console. Lots of bespoke methods that won't work well on other hardware gets introduced.

[@conoraq]

Sorry but no, Forspoken requiring a GTX 1060 for 720p 30fps low settings is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Final Fantasy 15 (which John points out looks BETTER than Forspoken) runs at 45-50fps in the open world at 1080p max settings on that card. Arkham Knight, one of the best looking games ever made, runs comfortably on that card at 60+fps, again 1080p max settings. It feels like Digital Foundry are becoming apologists for the greed and excesses of the gaming and hardware industries and my interest in their commentary is declining as a result.

[@concinnus]

I read their point as PC vs console expectations. The PC is not disadvantaged vs. the PS5; they're both bad. The 720p may be for render, with FSR2 up to 1080p looking alright.

[@cynic5581]

I really enjoyed the PSVR1 implementation. I can sit on the couch and feel in the world but still use normal controls if I want. Never been a fan of the full body experience with VR.

[@anonony9081]

Forespoken is $93 in Canada. That's a hard sell!!

[@Anon1370]

the price of the game the specs you need the look of the game yeh it looks nothing special to me

[@ralfiejr34]

I wouldn't pay $10 for it

[@chintoki]

@@ralfiejr34 you'd have to pay me to play it.

[@robbieburns3564]

PSVR has a price that is not super high for PCVR - it's actually quite low - but for console gamers it is high. The problem not mentioned here too with it is much of the titles are Quest2 ports. PCVR is also in this problem area is that higher fidelity experiences are not common - much of VR game development is driven by low-end hardware of Quest2 and indie developers who don't have big budgets and big teams.

[@WMCheerman]

Remember when windows vista gave your pc a score. I thought that was a good concept for people are not tech savvy.

[@izuthree]

Absolutely agreed; especially with the context of the Steam Deck, I do think it's a bit of a missed trick that there can't be some sort of indexing within Windows (or Steam!) for hardware performance grading to make life a lot easier for less tech savvy people. Some games with good PC ports even list where the impact on performance comes from for each option, and some others like Forza Horizon have quite robust benchmarking which even gives you an idea of bottlenecking; being able to utilize an intelligent 'rough estimate for that component' out of the box would be a massive QoL gain. For one, look at the Steam hardware survey and you'll see a lot of laptop and a lot of prebuilt hardware - those people won't really understand a big spec sheet like that, but also they really shouldn't *have* to in 2023. It's not like we have to manually configure soundcard IRQ and whatever any more.

[@Zanarkand102]

PC gamers are always claiming superiority over consoles, yet when console games are released on PC to achieve that superior result, the complaints come in about the minimum specs. Developers who target a specific piece of console hardware can optimize and achieve better results than a PC with the same identical specs. Developers have to take into account every single PC configuration and can't assume any one piece of needed hardware spec will be there to counterbalance something else so the minimal requirements will have to be higher. Overall the PC can be much more powerful, but you need a PC that can output those results.

[@Zeouterlimits]

The Last Clockwinder is a great VR game, highly recommend giving it a go.

[@trevortrevor4209]

The French guy talked about the promotional material, on a podcast, he said the Sega sent a by mistake a disc with some pictures without indications about what it was or why they sent it to them.

[@startedtech]

The RAM requirements just don't make any sense for me in Forspoken. Nothing seems logical about it, like what 24GB of RAM? I mean when the PS5 has 16GB between CPU & GPU...once you factor in the GPU on a PC it's basically twice the PS5's memory. They must be offering PS5 quality textures as the lowest quality option or something.

[@борисрябушкин-з9н]

Consoles ram management is much better than pcs. Also ps5 has best streaming system that saves memory. Dont you know that for quality devs consoles are much more effective platform than pc?

[@michaelmonstar4276]

25:03 - There was a conversation somewhere, I forget who they were, another recent video about these same layoffs, but someone mentioned that it's not that strange because, not only do they probably need to save money here and there, but also because they were probably over-staffed, in that they picked up a lot of people over the years leading up to this, and that it's basically like a natural cycle that isn't really out of the ordinary. - So they just hire a lot of people, then they need to dial it back, then they will hire new people at the same time or a little later. - It's not that the companies themselves will operate with fewer people, they're just cycling through staff.

[@0x8badbeef]

When you check out PSVR2 I like to know how well it works if you wear glasses. How well does foveated rendering work if it has to look through your glasses.

[@SebastianSkadisson]

You guys get the PC trailer for Forspoken totally wrong: The features they list were the stuff they had to struggle with making work in Luminous Engine.

[@Beaut_Beau]

The average DF Direct Weekly "Time Spent Talking" breakdown: John - 85% Alex - 10% Rich - 5%

[@BenPyman]

With the PS VR2 marketing, the best theory is that because of the reasons John mentioned (no killer game, economic situation, etc.) they are waiting until the killer game is ready for release around the holidays for the real marketing push. Let us enthusiasts buy into the hardware at launch with limited games, work out any bugs and build up the game library for a wider audience who don't read gaming/tech sites.

[@SmiFF_]

I´m still playing on the ps3/ps4 ... and also still using a gtx 1070 T.i. :)

[@SUPERFunStick]

I can taste the irony of Glen Schofield's first series remake getting the red carpet rolled out to destroy his current IP popularity and sales. It's like his grown up son just beat up his dad

[@jonathangarmuth8975]

I could listen to you guys talk old e3 memories forever

[@HorusTortoise]

32:35 “Fireworks are beautiful, they are a visual thing that you see” - John “G buffer” Linneman

[@marcosvictor4935]

The issue I and I assume a lot of people have with those higher minimum requirements for PC is because neither Hogwarts Legacy nor Returnal look better than some of the games released in the last few years that didn't require such high specs, that become especially apparent when comparing forspoken and FFXV where both run on the same engine while FFXV both look much better than forspoken all the while it requires much less powerful hardware to run... The memory side of things I can understand are being heavily impacted to store even higher resolution textures and faster loading times but the GPU requirement makes really no sense. I would actually not be complaining if they siad it ran at 1080p@30fps with those minimum specs but 720@30 sounds odd. But forspoken should do 1080p@60 with those graphics on a 1060

[@Cavscout101]

I think the FOViated rendering is what is going to make VR2 a real next gen headset

[@nnoas971]

May I ask why Square Enix is so obsessed with particle effects in their games? Most of the time I don't know what is happening on the screen and I'm sure that so many particles affect the performance of the game in some way.

[@Alias_Anybody]

I remember from all the detailed analysis of the id tech Doom games that these particle effects can absolutely be an additional load. Only look good to a degree though, unlike better lighting. Some Japanese devs seem to have a fetish for those effects since 3D games are a thing.

[@tyraelhermosa]

Anyone else noticing a synchronization issue between the video and audio in this one?--especially for Rich and John?

[@kodemasterx]

Watch Crysis 4 require: 128GB of DDR8, an RTX 6090TI and i9 16900K... Mark my words 🤣

[@v1kt0u5]

21:08 It's fun how Alex even stopped talking for the fart 😜

[@funbrute31]

Shit ports are out of control

[@mikejenkins1270]

Talking about how going for GaaS is riskier for developers, then 5 minutes later talking about how Callisto Protocol's middling sales mean we're worried the studio could go under. So you can see why almost everyone is going for GaaS. Any failure can ruin a studio. But the monetary upside on a successful GaaS is so much bigger than a single player game.

[@Zinkolo]

Given that Sony and other company still advertise ultrawide as a feature in their trailers I would say it's certainly not bare minimum these days... It really speaks to how out of touch he is that he thinks ultra wide is bare minimum and common when there are many games today that still do not support it for one reason or another. Unless maybe you play only AAA games but even then you're still going to have to rely on third party software to force it as many games opt to letter box. Like resident evil village or persona 5

[@PugO.]

He must not play many Japanese PC ports. ultrawide is certainly not standard in those.

[@DMBisAwesome]

@22:23 Great take here from John. I've heard the same conclusion regarding leadership from 343. I'll always believe that Halo can come back.

[@cun7us]

I've never understood why Halo Infinite gets so much hate. It's obviously a huge franchise and therefore has a bigger expectation than other games, but it was generally well received by most people.

[@Vsevolod3788]

14:11 Except these games look no better than 2016 titles while require 2023 level hardware. In your Sporefoken review you compared it to AC Unity which is a 9-year old game at this point and Unity looks like a next-gen game compared to this 2023 title. Graphics stagnates or even degrades but system requirements continue to rise which is ridiculous. And I know why this happens - someone has to buy all this overpriced hardware!

[@wertywerrtyson5529]

It used to be that one million games sold was a big deal and now 2 million is a disappointment because they expected 5 million? If it was an established IP that usually sells around 5 million maybe but for a new IP that seems very unrealistic.

[@flimermithrandir]

Good old Platinum Status? Yeah i remember. Back then those Games got a massiv Reduced Price and sold for 30 Euro going forward. I understand this is not a Thing anymore because it never really made Sense but thinking about it… Its really messed up now.

[@Judie-Nator]

Fingers crossed that the Calisto Devs get the funding they deserve! They seem like a really talented and passionate team. Yes Calisto Protocol was a bit of a rocky start, but their art, sound, technical team and the actors they got were very good. If they can learn from Calisto and improve the gameplay, they could be a fantastic team. Hopefully Krafton understands that

[@MassiveHappyClapper]

I love the Callisto Protocol.

[@-PVL93-]

Uh well if the reports are to be believed they somehow already spent 160m dollars total for Callisto, how much more funding do they need beyond that?

[@mctapoutos7426]

Unfortunately thats what you get when you saying that the game is multipla but at the side you giving codes to Sony, CP was my absolute top game but I'm not going to buy ps5 it's ridiculous so I got Death Space instead and I will not support CP developers and publishers.

[@chriswalsh3149]

Q5 is the best shit in any DF Direct ever. More videos of you guys just chatting and reminiscing please!