Diablo 4's Motivational Imbalance

[@Outplayedqt]

My first ever gaming memory was coming home from primary school to my Mom playing local LAN Diablo 1 with her BF at the time. She got me into the world of gaming, lol. Lots of fond memories playing D2 with her, moving onto WoW, then revisiting the franchise with D3 when I first touched a console - my college roommate’s. The both of us had such a good time playing co-op (I do agree, Blizzard did a fantastic job making couch-coop work) through undergrad/grad school. I remember my mate always getting annoyed that I’d spend waaaay more time analyzing gear than he did in New Tristram, haha. Now that I’m older, it’s insane to look back at how my brain was conditioned, Skinner-box style. I took a looooong break from gaming altogether after buying D4’s Ultimate Edition and putting it down after hitting 100 in 2 weeks, with no end-game in sight. Realized how damaging it was to the reward circuitry of my brain to the point that the only games I really only look forward to are Bloodborne/Sekiro 2, Dark Souls 4 (pls, Miyazaki, not another open world DS) and Silksong. Loved the video, btw. Came here from your Steam store analysis vid which I wholly agreed with as well (as someone with ~1500 games on Steam, having only played maybe a quarter of them lmao - those Humble Bundles from ~2011 were *really* generous). You have a great voice/mic setup as well. Definitely earned my sub, and I look forward to any future content, no matter the topic! Glad your vids got recommended to me. Cheers.

[@wesd3370]

When I saw that this has 800 views… it took a second to realize that it didn’t have 800k views. The quality of this video would be deserving of 800k views.

[@Funkopotamus920]

Because overly long meandering video essays on games are a dime a thousand these days.

[@isaaccosand]

Mark! I only recently found your channel, but I’m super impressed by and enjoy your content. I’ve been on a journey of reevaluating my relationship with gaming, and you’ve been instrumental in that process. Please continue to be motivated to release videos with these interesting topics. I would love to hear your take on topics such as “games as a service”, linear short experience games vs grindy multiplayer games, backlog tackling. I think you have a ton you could add to the conversation. Looking forward to many more!

[@loganboyd10]

I play a lot and you hit the nail on the head. My analogy is that the best game ever is hidden behind layers of unrealized ideas or mechanics that don’t interact with your character as the creators may have envisioned. Uninvited guests indeed.

[@iatwiatw]

D4 has many, many problems, most of which I believe stems from its confused identity. Like you noted, D4 makes an amazing first impression. The presentation is top notch, and the campaign and even many side quests are legitimately good. If it was marketed AND designed as a single playthrough game, it would be much more well received. But like you also noticed, D4 is a pretender. It pretends to live up to its legacy and cater to players who want to dive deep and play literal thousands of hours. Unfortunately, the team behind D4 either didn't plan well for that long term play or have zero experience with the genre. This mish mash of a foundation that prioritizes single playthrough and a casual experience with the grindy progression should you decide to dive deeper ultimately ruins the experience for both target demographics. For casuals, the disconnect you observed between the low level difficulty and the spike that only gets worse in the end game is off putting. If you continue to play, prepare for more one shot kills from bosses, and deaths from shit that enemies leave AFTER they die, not from damage by the enemies themselves. Same with the disconnect between the guided restriction of the skill tree and the confusing mess that is the Paragon board. Note that you stop gaining skill points at level 50, so until 100 your main source of passive progression comes from the board. But there's no detailed tutorial for it, its interface is clunky and a half baked facade of complexity, and for some reason the good glyphs are random drops that you have to keep finding for every character you create. And of course, there's the purchasable cosmetics, which are worth buying only if you intend to keep playing the game for a long time AND encouraged the devs to make many of the free default cosmetics look boring or straight up awful. On the other hand, people who want to grind and keep playing for hundreds if not thousands of hours will quickly discover just how little regard was given to long term play. The game has two separate UI interfaces for renown points, it makes you hunt for more than a hundred statues for extra skill points and paragon points, it has strongholds that you need to unlock with every character. These things have zero replay value yet took up a considerable amount of resources to create. Meanwhile, you have limited stash space, you can't save builds or even gear loadouts even though d3 already had it, and the stats EVERYWHERE - in the inventory, skill tree, gear, etc - are still not clear enough if not outright false or bugged. Every season, at least one class gets absurdly strong because of a bug or unintended interaction. Yet the skills, once again, were clearly designed for a single playthrough or low level play. They simply don't scale high enough to keep up with the brute force enemy HP bloat in the endgame that the devs are substituting for actual mechanical difficulty. So yeah, D4 is a great game if you can be content to play it once. It really is. But it had a legacy to uphold, and so it can't be a short term experience. Unfortunately, the devs couldn't decide between the two and ended up ruining both.

[@timothygauci8800]

Great video! In answering your question in the end... I play D4 to wind down from the day, or to hang out with my cousin in another state while on discord, or to entertain myself for a little bit in a more interactive way than Netflixing. Also, I derive enjoyment from getting and feeling more powerful, and from dialing in the gear and paragon board and skill tree in many different builds. I've got 4 characters I work to keep the gameplay fresh. And seasons resetting the grind from scratch allows me to start all over again. I mainly push hard for a couple weeks and then fizzle out into, like you, roughly 30-69 minute sessions for a few more weeks after that. Great video, keep em coming

[@jpcgamer]

Very well explained, great video. This is largely the same problem modern MMOs have had post-WoW. What is considered “fun” has been defined by Blizzard and aggregated into this style of gameplay.

[@tdpoch]

This is exactly why I could not get into D4 or D3. Bravo. I would not have been as tactful as you were.

[@gilmarvenon]

Diablo 4 was rushed to grab the money of casuals, with a huge budget on marketing campaign, but what was presented is a game without a identity, struggling on the very basics they used to be known for.

[@maynardburger]

Diablo 4 was not 'rushed' in any way. :/ There was eleven years between Diablo 3's release and Diablo 4, with Blizzard working full time on D4 for a majority of that period. We knew fairly early on it was in development and it was a common meme talking about how long it's taking. Diablo 4 largely released as the game Blizzard wanted it to be. And it's not catered to casuals, it's catered to the hardcore who dont mind 'oh the first 50 hours is the tutorial!' types who can expend that time/energy just so they can feel more powerful once they get to the more challenging endgame stuff. Casuals actually get stiffed here, cuz they dont want to do all that, and they get a worse game as a result.

[@kingofthefall.1117]

Diablo 3 was for casuals as well

[@GetJesse]

Awesome video. This video deserves more views.

[@Jackie-zd2gx]

Keep up the good work Mark! I love this style of video and the quality is very high 👍

[@CazaDeYork]

13:45 Exactly. I always imagine playing Diablo is like playing WoW...except you only have 4 abilities and your camera is locked.

[@sci3nttechable611]

I've always said, hand this game over to the community (moders, users) and they'd make it the best ARPG there ever was. D4 lacks soul

[@Monkeyman-qt1sm]

Underrated take lmao

[@steakmcc]

Great vid! Found you via your "finishing games" video. Care to contrast d4 with a d2 playthrough? It's always interesting seeing the perspective of fresh players in an old remaster of a classic genre defining game!

[@OpenWorldAddict0]

In order to enjoy Diablo 4 and other games like it, you must really enjoy the loot grind, because that is what it is, a loot grind game. I love loot grind games, and can form intrinsic motivations on what i want to grab next, or what i am aiming to acquire next.

[@opera707]

Great Channel! Definitely can see you go far

[@fullnewsky]

Love this! Give us moooore! ❤

[@EirikrTheRed]

I think you nailed it. I love the Diablo games. I’ve played since Diablo 1 countless hours. Was disappointed in Diablo 3 and had high hopes for Diablo 4. In my opinion the loot is off and not fun. Too much of it. Also the difficulty is off. Way too easy as you stated. In their defense it used to be harder until recently. They’ve geared it towards how high of an endgame you can complete leaving the leveling process and character building along the way as pointless. Which is one the best parts of these games. Nice video I enjoyed.

[@frankwunder8844]

I've played Diablo 3 and I also wondered why slashing through hordes of enemies without any challenge was supposed to be the point of the game. But then I played Cat Quest once and the game gives you quest after quest and the subconscious takes over and I felt like I was a machine being controlled by the game. Strange.

[@maynardburger]

Diablo 3's difficulty for just a main runthrough was even easier. Just absolutely mindless. This completely ruins these games for me. Diablo 2 was *not* like this, though. Diablo 2 was fun and moderately challenging even on just your first, basic playthrough. Your build and gear still mattered and it wasn't just ALL about 'getting to the endgame'. You could legit just play through the main campaign once and have a good time and have that be it, like any other RPG. Too many of these loot RPG's have catered almost entirely to the 'the main campaign is the tutorial' type of player and it kills it for me. I dont feel spending dozens of mindless hours on the main game as a 'tutorial' to get to hundreds of hours of endgame grinding is appealing, personally. This is also why Grim Dawn is still my current favorite loot RPG. Great gameplay, great main campaign, great player customization, modern enough graphics.

[@Professor-Slothmaster]

Great video and analysis - thanks!

[@Peter_Parker69]

Good video. As someone who's played a lot since launch, I want to point out the recent changes made leveling extremely easy to help the majority of players who was done with the campaign a year ago blast through to get to end-game. This is convenient for the "core group" who wants to level up 1-2 characters each season but don't have all the time in the world. I personally like these changes, but it has some obvious downsides for newcomers trying the campaign now. I highly recommend starting new characters in seasonal content were you can skip-campaign (if you have finished it of course), try all the end-game bosses, look up some s-tier builds and masterwork your gear.

[@stug3719]

Seeing gameplay footage of Diablo 2 made my soul smile. That was such an incredible game. I haven’t tried D4 yet, but I didn’t care for D3 at all for some reason.

[@Monkeyman-qt1sm]

Am I the only one who thinks cutscenes like this just don’t fit in a game like Diablo? I was instantly skipping them because I just wanted to get back to the game. So far the first two acts have been a slog. Kill a couple push over enemies then cutscenes, then walk across the world for another cutscene. To maybe fight 5 more guys 🥲 so I have problems with the pacing and also the game is just extremely easy I was not expecting that. First 2 acts and I don’t think I’ve used a single health potion. I stopped upgrading them cuz they are pointless lol. I was expecting a lot more out of Diablo tbh

[@Dondarif]

I've yet to play Diablo IV, but played through Diablo III's campaign and expansion (and a bit of postgame) recently and felt the exact same thing that you have described. I didn't die a single time through the entire campaign, although I thought I had just chosen too low a difficulty (seem to recall there being more difficulty options). I've definitely enjoyed my time with it and intend to continue building out my character in the postgame, but if it's a similar situation in III to what you describe here, with there being little real consequence for dying, I think that just taints it for me. And I'm not someone who can really handle unforgiving games either... While the gameplay is kinda fun, I assumed Diablo was acclaimed for a more engaging experience of building out your character for real reward - diminished stakes diminishes the reward, and in that way, I completely found III was something I did rather than played most of the time. Just discovered your videos recently and really enjoying them all - look forward to more coming along.

[@alextrollip7707]

I think its a bit of the value of time. If you're spending 100s of hours and getting "nothing" It feels a lot worse, when you could be doing something else. I've recently pivoted off of MMORPG or grind games, as they demotivate me incredibly when I end a long game session and don't feel any progress. And I used to be a big enjoyed of games like Warframe, SWTOR etc. Or even more recently Genshin Impact with characters, weapons and artifacts all RNG gated. Where the game was fun, but the grind was needed for more fun stuff. But eventually the fun parts didn't make up for the redoing the same mission 25x for a loot unlock. With Diablo 4, I think it caught me once I had given up on grind games. Tried First Descendants recently, and as soon as the first drop chance failure happened, I just realised why am I redoing this mission. To have the chance to unlock some potential fun? With the wealth of options out there, why would I rather not play something that I can play for the fun. So games with end states feel more rewarding to me, as I can either play them to completion, or play them until I don't have fun anymore and not feel like maybe eventually I'd unlock the fun.

[@Enzo-kb4oj]

Hello! Very good video. My biggest problem with Diablo 4 is what I feel happens to me with Last Epoch (another ARPG) as well. I feel like I'm doing the same thing from level 1 to level 100. I don't notice a tipping point where the game starts to feel like "The endgame." It's like a linear progression in which you never suffer a shock. Either because the bosses are really very weak, with very simple mechanics, or because the enemies are simply hitboxes. Another problem that Last Epoch also has is that you have to make 2 or 3 complete equipment changes. And not for access to new skills, only for statistical reasons. That seems unhealthy and detrimental to enjoyment. In addition to making yourself feel like a parasite haha. Greetings!!!

[@LocalTennisPro]

ARPG’s like Diablo, Path of Exile, Last Epoch are essentially a gameplay loop of building your character to do content to get loot to build your character further to do harder content to get better loot to build your character further to do harder content… You get the idea. The success of these games comes down to how well the developers are at hiding this loop through diversity and depth of all game activities, build creativity and balance, loot balancing and power creep, the list goes on. Critics of diablo 4 site a lot of these specifics because they know they are important to success of games in this genre. To sooner you see the game play loop unfolding on your screen, the quicker people lose interest in these games. These are difficult games to successfully design but when they are done right they will absolutely pull you in for hundreds or even thousands of hours.

[@_kostant]

Played this game when it first came out and quit shortly after finishing the campaign for the exact same reasons. Playing a good game shouldn’t feel like you’ve fully wasted your time. And every time I got up from a session that’s all I felt. In the end I came to a very similar conclusion, I think. “It’s a mobile game.” The gameplay was not “smooth” back then, with a lot of rubber banding, getting stuck on invisible edges of terrain, etc. It really felt like they took Diablo immortal and changed the FOV and environment. And the only draw I found was “ooh shiny!” drops.

[@gelipterzg]

you don't truly understand the pavlovs dogs reference until you ding in wow xD

[@Calvictus360]

Your "Steve" analogy is perfect. I want to enjoy D4 but so much about it just irks me.

[@skadoosh-_-7]

great video, i agree🌱

[@asdfractal8115]

Diablo 4 is the most casual friendly of all the ARPGs. As a POE/LE player, I checked out D4 on game pass and had the same experience as you. It was insanely easy to the point of being boring. I had a bit of fun blasting but it was not challenging enough at all. I will check it out again but other ARPGs are much more interesting.

[@gelipterzg]

they way diablo 4 was conceived is as a neverending work in progress. it'll change over time, let's hope for the better. first 3 seasons were basically beta tests, season 4 with loot reborn is considered to be the release version.still, with 2 teams working on seasons, expect even seasons to be better than odd ones.

[@BRad-wd8tm]

Good analogy. D4 Is the party i'm having fun at and you're steve. Why are you here if you're not having fun? Why are any of you here if you're not having fun?

[@maynardburger]

I feel bad for Steve. Steve was simply drunk and probably didn't know how to interact properly with people anymore. Letting him dampen your mood seems silly unless he was being belligerent or something. Simply keeping to himself and trying to pet the cat is entirely innocent. Just didn't feel that was a good analogy here.

[@dirtywhitellama]

I played the heck out of Diablo, D2, and D3 with my brother, each as they came out, and the relevant expansions. We had tons of fun. My brother invited me to get D4 and play with him and his family. I played with them a handful of times, I think reaching the 3rd or 4th zone on my highest level character, and have never played it again. It is just not interesting to me. Unlike you, I definitely had the experience of randomly dying for BS reasons throughout the early game (I think that may be something that got changed in later patches that I never tried), and it was always dumb and spiky. Also hate enemy scaling. BOTW and TOTK did okay with level scaling but broadly it's something I really don't enjoy. If I leveled up and became more powerful, I want to blast through enemies that used to give me trouble. Also they just want my money. The game seems designed to extract money from you in every way possible and has the minimum amount of fun gameplay to keep that wheel turning.

[@DrKanin]

As someone who plays the genre a lot (both D4, LE, and PoE) I would be curious if you would try the other games too. D4 really is the worst one in terms of game design, but has most marketing. If you try PoE, remember: You NEED a loot filter (can be subscribed to on the official website). You will get stuck after campaign if you make your own build, and the campaign really is just the beginning of the game, so strongly consider a build guide to see more of the game. Even with a guide, the game is the most complex you'll have played probably

[@thethreems8682]

I had huge fun with D3 back in the day, the cartoonish killing sprees felt very good on controller and couch co-op was a blast. D4 feels more like a slog. That doesn't mean that I haven't played it plenty (like, in the top 2% of hours spent or something) but it's less joyful somehow. I don't know enough about game design to know WHY but it's just... bleh ... somehow.

[@dimikxx]

IMO the fun is had when you Test your build by going into world tier 4 as early as possible. Grinding for gear and glyphs and push high max tier night mare dungeons, the pit, infernal hordes, and the uber bosses. Try pvP Also. Then repeat with a new class/build. D4 at launch was mid. I haven’t played for a year until a month ago. Way better IMO.

[@drithen]

You are part of the minority of players who want the challenge of playing Hardcore. It's not as hardcore as most thing, but there is a real death penalty and that raises the stakes of everything you do. All your stat and gear choices suddenly matter, and how you play matters. It's the fun version of the game.

[@0nikage.]

You so right bro wow

[@hazanko5875]

The action part of ARPG hasn't been good for years.