DIALOGUE: Would Heaven Be Hellish?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Trent, thanks so much for having me on. I can't tell you how much I appreciated having a conversation like this that was both kind and respectful. Really enjoyed the dialogue! Also, 0:00 Intro 5:47 Problem 1 22:05 Problem 2 38:44 Problem 3 1:11:04 Problem 4 & 6 1:39:41 Problem 5 2:04:53 Problem 7

[@user-lh5li8ll7i]

Remember how I told you that Catholicism has the answers and the problem is Protestantism?? Anyway, you seemed to show Trent a lot of respect as opposed to calling him stupid and so forth the way you and your supporters normally would do believers on your own channel. Lets hope you keep it up.

[@videonmode8649]

Always good to have a healthy discussion (both agreements and disagreements) and never devolve into detraction and misrepresentation.

[@jhoughjr1]

Keep talking to Trent and you may end up catholic lol. Seek truth enough and you may find god.

[@computationaltheist7267]

At 23:18, you say that calling it suicide is inflamed unnecessarily. You've got to love the double standards of atheist doofuses like yourself. Your whole channel uses strong words by calling Christian apologists (regardless of their qualification) as manipulation or abusive tactics so as to pander to your audience and then, you turn around and cry about using terms like "suicide".

[@CatholicWithaBiblePodcast]

Thanks for the timestamp! You're doing God's work. lol

[@everettyoung9325]

I’m a Brandon patron, a few minutes in, and Trent is very likable. Thanks to both of you.

[@Quekksilber]

I'm glad you are here and listening.

[@Valathiril]

This is a perfect example of how all of these types of conversations should be held! Both Brandon and Trent were excellent!

[@ImtoolVideos]

I'll take a hard pass on that and thankfully I think both atheist and theist would eventually agree if we ever went down that awful road. The comments here back my sentiment. they are all mostly about the tone of the conversation not the content or rationality. The truth is brandon's arguments - all of them - were EXCEEDINGLY weak and Trent was very weak in pointing them out perhaps in an attempt to be accommodating . The central goal of discussions and debate should be about advancing thought and rationality - style is a distant second ( but of course social media is about style primarily which its why its often so vacant). How bad is this discussion at advancing understanding or logic? The very premise of the debate and relied on at multiple points in the discussions is the thesis that is TOTALLY in contradiction of Christianity - that Christians spend eternity in Heaven. Heaven being infinite or eternal is totally irrelevant because NO Christian ever stays there. IF you watched this video as I did you just wasted over 2 hours of your life watching a person who claims to have been a christian for 30 years and one who still names Christ argue a strawman as if none of them have any understanding of one of the central teachings of christianity - the return of christ WITH THE SAINTS. I figure brandon would correct this gaffe by saying it doesn't matter - its more about the eternal nature itself - but it does because at several points in his defense of the arguments he appeals to particular features and realities specific to heaven as a place Christians spend forever. There are SEVERAL near equal other gaffes - so THIS discussion as the model for all such discussions ? Just say No

[@RINSHOUJO]

Nah you debate to win.

[@Valathiril]

@@RINSHOUJO Been a while since I listened to this, but I believe this was a discussion not a debate.

[@RINSHOUJO]

Oops. Was answering the guy above

[@jacoblee5796]

@@ImtoolVideos Brandon brought up some excellent points, I thought Trent did a horrible job of trying to understand them and refute them.

[@jtrlatinist2227]

Wow this was more difficult and mentally challenging than I thought it would be. Thank you both of you for doing this kind of stuff and thank you Trent for continuing to help spread the word of God and help the faithful wrap their minds around difficult concepts.

[@Cuffsmaster]

and thank you Brandon for exposing the weaknesses of the faith without being ugly about it.

[@azrael516]

​@@Cuffsmasterlol what a foolish statement

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@azrael516 "foolish statement" Explain why you feel Brandon does not exposing weakness of the faith with his statements here and on his channel ?

[@azrael516]

@@Cuffsmaster conspiracism🤨

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@azrael516 DO you think you can string a few words and sentences together to express an opinion. Not to hard I hope.

[@rickydettmer2003]

Love that Trent is able to do these types of dialogues and in such a charitable way with both parties. Some people , both believers and non, don’t take the time to think deeply about these subjects

[@rachelbytheriver]

I really appreciate how kind, polite, and thoughtful you both were. We need more of that in the world!

[@bryanbauer2282]

I'm over from Mind Shift. Great listening to both of you guys. I really appreciate the thoughtful, respectful discussion.

[@captainboon2978]

I loved this conversation. As a Catholic, I like the way Brandon composed himself and how he was operating in good faith. I've been thinking about some of these concepts every now and then, and I found this conversation to be fruitful. I wouldn't mind seeing more conversations between you and Brandon in the future.

[@brianchojnowski5989]

Wow, Brandon is a great example of thoughtfulness and patience. Thanks Brandon!

[@johnosterhoudt]

I mean this to be an earnest comment: Does the sentence, "Brandon is a great example of thoughtfulness and patience," prove that a perfect standard of thoughtfulness and patience, and therefore goodness since those two things are manifestations of goodness itself, exists? Our ability to think in such abstractions is a serious problem to the atheist worldview.

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@johnosterhoudt Does the sentence "Hydrogen Sulphide is a great example of smelliness" prove that a perfect standard of smelliness, and therefore badness since it is a manifestation of badness itself, exists?

[@storba3860]

​@@johnosterhoudtThe "Objective Morality" argument makes no sense when we consider God does things that go against our own consciences. Of course there's original Sin and his ways are higher than our ways but the fact God put something in us that makes us repulsed by the idea of Hell and expects us to just accept it seems counterintuitive.

[@azophi]

@@johnosterhoudtJesse what are you talking about 😵‍💫

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@johnosterhoudt "Our ability to think in such abstractions is a serious problem to the atheist worldview." Yes if you believe evidence or a lack of evidence is not important to truth then that sentence makes sense. There is not a problem with thinking in abstract or seeing abstract ideas presented to you but there is not a mandate that the answer must include the unproven or unprofitable as fact. Faith is not fact and Belief is not evidence bye themselves.

[@brothersun87]

Hey Trent! I came to this video by way of Brandon’s page, and I’m just so happy with this video! Thank you so much for hosting this discussion. Brandon, I’m so proud of you!

[@ryandellwo2552]

Mindshift fan here. Just wanted to pop in and say i really appreciated the conversation. It's rare you see respect and well thought out arguments on these topics as opposed to tropes and fallicious arguments. Thank you so much for the commitment to truth and your beliefs to debate in good faith. Kudos to both of you. This was very insightful.

[@MLamar0612]

Damn, i have so much MORE respect for Trent with this discussion with Brandon. He really is my favorite apologist and as an atheist, hes legit the only one i can sit down and actually listen to.

[@0organlazar]

Agreed, I was gonna sub to support his intellectual honesty, but subbing to one apologist usually fills your recommendations with all the other less honest ones XD

[@MLamar0612]

@@0organlazar true😭😭 I've been there

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

As a former evangelical-now-atheist, I was always taught by my Christian pastors and Bible College how wrong and even absurd the Catholic faith. In that evangelical bubble I was made to believe with certainty that I was right and knew truth that others didn’t understand. Finding Trent has given me new respect for Catholic teaching, but it’s amazing how arrogant some of Trent’s Catholic followers can be and how much they sound just like I was made to be as an evangelical, but toward Protestantism.

[@OldMotherLogo]

@BigIdeaSeeker, if it’s any comfort to you, we as Catholics were taught that we were the one true Church, we had the one true teaching, and all other faiths were wrong. That only those baptized Catholic could go to heaven. At least the Church has changed their teaching on that last one.

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

@@OldMotherLogo That’s so funny. As an “on fire” evangelical in high school, I always hesitated to even talk to Catholics about faith issues because I felt so sorry for them with all their idol worship and obsession with hocus-pocus rituals and such. Damned Mary worshippers! ;) Now, as an atheist (or agnostic toward a general deity, strong atheist toward gods known by name among men), I am fascinated by theology and read from progressive to fundy Protestant theology as well as Catholic and orthodox beliefs. Similarly with Hinduism and Buddhism, though Isl bored the hell out of me.

[@MrPeach1]

Trents ability to have real respectful dialog is unmatched. I think it is because he is so driven by the science of argumentation he can step out of his own personal belief and just discuss the structure of the argument in as non biased a way as possible. That is a very useful skill to have.

[@jimmymelonseed4068]

CS Lewis’s Great Divorce is by far the best imagined picture of how Heaven works and how our own attitudes play into the way we exist there. Also the idea of saints helping us grow in Heaven is beautifully described in the book as well.

[@JamesVagabond-ho5tm]

Key word being “imagined”

[@newglof9558]

​@@JamesVagabond-ho5tmwhat does that have to do with anything? People can imagine a lot of things, real or not.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

@@newglof9558exactly! He really thought that was deep.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

Is that a book though?

[@AJKPenguin]

It's a book meant to get the mind thinking and the heart beating.

[@christinemcguiness9356]

Thank you Trent and Brandon. God bless🙏

[@yasutakeuchi]

What a perfect example for honest, fair, respectful discussion. I can't even call it a debate because neither was trying to dunk on the other. I wish these two could sit together and discuss these topics ad nauseam for 8 hours at a time lol

[@markmckeen5124]

I came over to watch, after Brandon mentioned this interview when I was watching Mindshift. I really enjoyed it. Great job by both gentlemen. I would love to see more of these going forward.

[@Mari_Oh]

Excellent discussion, a thoughtful guest. Thank you! Your content is always top notch.

[@Vic2point0]

"Those moments become precious because they're limited." Disagree. It's only because they end and become memories that we cherish them in that particular way, but in the moment (as long as they're continuing) we very much enjoy them. And many of our fondest memories are moments we would actually like to experience again.

[@enzoarayamorales7220]

Is that always true though, nostalgia can be blinding. Plus there’s only so many times we can have the same experiences and not eventually get bored or unfulfilled.

[@Vic2point0]

​@@enzoarayamorales7220 I guess I'm just not seeing the argument here, as to why something that we sincerely enjoy would become boring or unfulfilling. If an element of surprise or discovery is the reason we enjoy it, sure, but not everything's like that. The assumption that everything would get boring seems to just be out of intuition. Meanwhile, my intuition is that the temporary nature of enjoyable things probably makes much of them bittersweet. You know it's going to end no matter what; that's always in the back of your mind even when you're enjoying yourself. So it could actually be the opposite effect with many things - you could actually enjoy it *more* with the knowledge that it doesn't ever have to end.

[@Angel.Shehu8081]

@@Vic2point0 I think it would become unfulfilling becuase it's FOREVER. Key word forever. If I were stuck in a fond memory sure I would like it for while, maybe even a long time. However if I'm living in that memory FOREVER, then theres no going back and theres arguablely no way of going forward either. Soon enough I'll start to miss my actual life because I haven't lived it in so long.

[@Vic2point0]

@@Angel.Shehu8081 If it's certifiably better, why would you want to move back to something less good? Why would the passage of time ever make you think "I don't like this superior thing, I want something that's worse"?

[@Angel.Shehu8081]

@@Vic2point0 This would need specific examples. What is the "certefiably better experience" and from what "inferior past life" is one coming from?

[@pixelprincess9]

I recently found MindShift and I was quite impressed. Glad to see him on the show

[@j.j.b]

I just wanna say this was awesome. Much respect to brandon. This was a captivating converstaion. I wasnt bored for one sec. Thanks trent. Grats on 100k. You deserve it sir. God bless.

[@davidreyes19201]

MindShift/Brandon fan here! Trent, this was a great conversation. You both were very kind and fair.

[@smugism1685]

I always enjoy these types of dialogues rather than the usual dunking and smugness in most conversations. Both parties had some really good points to offer, even though I lean a bit more towards Brandon's side of the isle. Please have Brandon on for another chat!

[@sakhiwosali3613]

The amount of calm, civility and just good conversation. Both parties are putting their points across with no vitriol and dishonesty towards the points. The point is not victory, they are not trying change each other's mind or trying to be right. I thoroughly enjoyed this thank you gentlemen please give us some more.

[@lifefindsaway7875]

I’m really pleased with how both parties were able to explore each others viewpoints, recognize where they wouldn’t be able to agree, where they did agree, and didn’t succumb to frustration or bickering.

[@moon_0207]

It’s hard to debate on boredom in heaven. Living in infinity is a hard concept to grasp for humans as it is. We are judging boredom in infinite heaven through the experience and understanding of our temporary lives. It’s easier comprehending temporary than it is infinite. It’s one of those things where you’ll never truly know (whether you’d get bored or not in an infinite time) unless you actually live through it.

[@josephcollins6033]

BRANDON!!! i will watch tomorrow. Thanks!

[@stevendouglas3781]

Boredom is an issue of temporal dissatisfaction. It makes no sense to bring up when discussing infinity in Heaven.

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

You are confusing eternity with infinite time. Infinite time is still 'temporal' meanwhile God's eternal nature is not temporal. Are you saying there is no temporality in heaven ?

[@CJP.-pq3kr]

@@SuperSaiyanKrillinthe only confusion here is your own clearly

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

@@CJP.-pq3kr mind demonstrating my confusion instead of just asserting it, Mr. Wise One ?

[@CJP.-pq3kr]

@@SuperSaiyanKrillin - You’re demonstrating it yourself. See how you’re the only one asking questions in this thread.

[@stevendouglas3781]

@@SuperSaiyanKrillin Yes I am. Time expiring is a symptom of the Fall. When time goes by things erode. People die. Memories fade. It’s death. I’m not saying things won’t be formatted sequentially. But there will be no boredom because the experience of “time passing” will take no toll. There will be nothing better to be doing, and there will be nothing lacking in what we are doing. It doesn’t matter how much temporality passes in Heaven. We will never count it, so it doesn’t matter.

[@anajuliasilveira7953]

I really, really enjoyed this conversation. Although I'm catholic, sometimes I get questions like those Brandon are bringing today and I'm not sure how to understand them internally. I'm happy to have Trend discussing these points in a kind way and giving some light into what's not always an easy topic.

[@iSkulk]

I really appreciated being able to hear you guys discuss this. I think the two of you together have some great chemistry that genuinely feels like it's edging closer and closer to truth.

[@CatholicElectrician]

If you get bored doing the same pleasurable thing, why assume that heaven is just one thing? Wouldn’t an infinite, timeless, all-powerful God be capable of providing infinite experiences?

[@a.39886]

.,If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4

[@Nkosi766]

Hey Brandon. Good to see you doing your thing.

[@spencersnead8160]

I watched his video on heaven before, and it seems one of his main arguments is that we would get bored or discontent in eternity. Living for forever would ultimately be awful because we will get bored eventually, and that boredom will never end. My question for him is: what if we never got bored? Would it really be a bad thing to exist forever if you never became discontent? Being truly content means you don’t want for anything; if you were in that state forever, you would never want anything more than what you have. In fact, existing forever in a state of contentment seems like the most desirable thing.

[@jhoughjr1]

Ive been bored so much in life I think im immune. That was never a strong argument for me . I had an out of body xp once, and idk what it was or why but I do recall a feeling of contentless and having answered questions. It was weird. So if that is anything to go on, I don't think boredom could be a concern because that state is so different

[@charlestownsend9280]

Being in such a state would imply that we're being controlled or aren't in some why ourselves anymore and instead forced into a state of happiness. Is it really a paradise if you're made to think that it's a paradise? What if we did the same thing on earth, implant everyone with a chip that always made them happy and content? Would that be good? Or would that be wrong? If that's heaven then I don't think I want it, I don't want to sacrifice who I am for a paradise I have no choice but to like, that feels like forced existence but at the same time not really existing, cause I wouldn't be me, I'd be someone else, a happy drone.

[@KrelianLoke]

​@charlestownsend9280 Right on. It won't exactly be me as I know it on earth being in heaven, but rather a very mentally dispositioned sin-deprived impassable version of me. Hopefully the heavenly package comes with amnesia so that I could forget all the sinful things I enjoyed on earth just in case they aren't available in heaven. Perhaps my children on earth end up in hell while I get to be in heaven, I could have amnesia forced into me while sitting in heaven that I even had children on earth. The biblical heaven should be blissful enough to somehow tweak or erase all the unfavourable parts. Removing all boredom, suffering, unhappy knowledge, unhappy memories etc.

[@eprd313]

The more I think about what would heaven be like for me, the more it looks like non-existence. At the end, if I'm so content that I lose all desires, I'll end up losing all self awareness too, as it becomes completely useless, like an unnecessary weight to carry.

[@KrelianLoke]

Yes many religions have eluded to that same heavenly state of existing in a non-suffering state which points towards non-existence. Though in the religious versions, self-existence somehow has to be retained in order to entice people to join, otherwise it's just nihilism and people don't often like the idea of nothingness. People just need to feel compensated with a net gain after living a life, which is why religions fight so hard to hold on to their own insurance policy they've conjured up.

[@CuteBacon294]

Brandon is so good. I really appreciate him ❤

[@smackback1278]

This was such a civil, thoughtful, and respectful conversation that provides much food for thought. Thank you both for your ideas and temperament. It's great to see two people with such drastically different viewpoints communicating so clearly and respectfully with each other!

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

It’s not like online dialogue often end up in a fist fight either 🙄

[@davidprush]

Excellent video! I love seeing genuine people work through problems in real time. Trent has a gift for explaining things graciously.

[@robertovaldizon408]

I’m so glad you got this collab going! Two of my favourite creators!

[@theflarpus]

What an open and honest discussion. Respect to both men. But especially for the Christian guy. As I think Christians tend to be so protective of there view points. That they tend to come across as condescending and or preachy.

[@theflarpus]

....and he was not like that

[@Xairos84]

Yes. I think most people get defensive if they feel that they need to defend it. Trent defends, but in a rather good faith way.

[@RasmusKarlJensen]

I have the exact same mindset and line of questions as MindShift, so this should be interesting.

[@love2skydive4life]

A great convo!!! You both were such gentlemen!!

[@ruizmorelos]

When I'm faced whith this kind of discussion, I like to propose the analogy of the buffet: when you're there, you are FREE to eat whatever you want and as much as you want... yet, you never try to eat the plates or the chairs... why? Because you have clarity of what IS and IS NOT food (meaning good to eat). In the same way, in heaven we will be free to choose anything with full knowledge of what IS and IS NOT good. So in one sense, we would have the capacity to choose sin (or maybe even non existence), but since we'll have our knowledge and our freedom perfected, we would never choose it... It would be the same as choosing to put sand in our mouth when w're hungy and food (the most excellent, btw) is avaliable... would make no sense at all...

[@weirdwilliam8500]

And god needed to create bone cancer in children to bring this about? Or spiders that lay their eggs in our eyeballs, or birth defects? That was the only way? If your family members are being tortured while you enjoy heaven, will you be happy about that too, because being sad would be as silly as eating a chair? The whole notion gets very dark, very quickly.

[@a.b.2405]

This was a perfect analogy.

[@newglof9558]

​@@weirdwilliam8500problem of evil is deboonked, next

[@weirdwilliam8500]

@@newglof9558 Oh, is it? I never realized. Now that you've simply stated it's debunked, I guess all my concerns have vanished. Thanks! A god that looks clearly evil simply isn't, just because you said so! /s

[@davidfillary]

Why would God not design the Earth in this way? Sounds like a perfect world and I see no reason. Why a perfect being couldn't create life in this manner straight away rather than having suffering beforehand.

[@michaelyeboah7789]

This is a great convo. Kudos to you both

[@theradiantknight9771]

Don't think people quite understand that Heaven is not just our existence now without the problems. It's a complete transformation of who we are.

[@Cuffsmaster]

"don't think people understand that heaven is not just our existence .. complete transformation" Well that would mean we are not ourselves so heaven does not exist for us. Plus you have no real prove it exist and if it does what it is like other than a few hints. You can tell me what you hope heaven is like or what others that don't know have told you. However that is not accurate information about anything. It's a guess

[@israelalexandroheredia6879]

@@Cuffsmaster”Well that would mean we are not ourselves” Would you say a newborn child stops being itself when they hit the age of 21?

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@israelalexandroheredia6879 Dumb - dumb dumb comparison.. about the actual subject of heaven. But I understand that one must do a song and dance to defend the concept of heaven when there is no proof it even exist. We know one is true at is true (born) and the other is myth.

[@BardicLiving]

@@israelalexandroheredia6879 If we suppose that someone's identity never changes no matter what alterations they undergo, though, what would stop God from simply instantly changing everyone into the sort of person who would unconditionally accept God?

[@israelalexandroheredia6879]

@@BardicLiving I don’t really see how that it is related to my question above. Perhaps you can elaborate a bit more. One would assume that something actually is stopping him, but some may answer that God chooses us to give free will or may answer with something else. But I think that is a different discussion altogether.

[@susand3668]

Thank you both! It was such a good conversation!

[@yearight1205]

I remember when I was a kid I heard a preacher talking about heaven. And he made it sound like an absolute nightmare to me. Because the concept of heaven is subjective. It's like imagine if I put you in a condo in downtown Chicago overlooking the city. You might love that, but someone like myself who prefers the suburbs would be miserable. So the notion of a one size fits all heaven doesn't work. It would need to be custom tailed for each individual to make sense, otherwise it's not heaven since you could make something better on earth.

[@benabaxter]

It is the Heavenly City, which implies neighborhoods and locality and unity and variety.

[@jendoe9436]

Jesus does mention that His Father’s house has many rooms, so it seems there’s an implication that there will be ‘spots’ that suite a person’s temperament. Plus, the Saints we know who are in Heaven are all different and are content and at peace with their station, so it seems there is something about Heaven that is good for everyone and slightly modified to suite their personalities.

[@vanceclark9317]

You don't keep the same mind or body in heaven if you died you would no longer have that hate your in heaven which is literally eternal happiness

[@yearight1205]

@@vanceclark9317 Then you're no longer you, which means you die and there is no afterlife for you. Remember something, and remember it well. Your personality is a direct result of your life experiences. If God changes it to make you fit into a place, then you are no longer you. Translation, you don't go anywhere when you die since it's not you anymore. That's not a loving thing to do to somebody. Better to spend eternity in a hell where I am myself than eternity in a place where I'm not able to remember who I am and retain my personality. Makes absolutely no sense at all. You do your best to be a good person and follow God to the best of your ability only so that when you get to heaven you're told that there's nothing about you worth saving, so you have to be completely overhauled just so that you're considered worthy of being in heaven? That's not okay on any level. Again though, yet another person describing Heaven in the same way I would view hell. No friend, I believe heaven is a place that is different for everyone. Otherwise it is hell in itself.

[@vanceclark9317]

@@yearight1205 You have a very basic and repetitive argument just because its not your mind or body doesn't mean it's not your spirit which basically all that matters.In Heaven yk everyone has of family! Which means memories are kept or gained also just because it's not "you" why does it matter? God gives eternal happiness, wisdom, and friends.you also clearly didn't watch the debate because this was addressed

[@redraven_the]

Trent, this dialogue was a great example, that intelectually honest discussions are possible even, when positions are inconcilable. Kudos to you.

[@RemyRemy987]

Appreciate this, (agnostic athiest here) And I have only heard the point of boredom and monotony of eternity. I heard it your interview with Trent. And you mentioned this is the weakest. When you understand neuro science of boredom this becomes very much weaker too. This has been a major interest of mine, the neuro science of how we get bored, feel unsafe feel pleasure and feel content etc. Even though I'm not on the camp of theism Let me tell you that boredom is optional, but most human beings don't feel like it is until they have a major experience that moves their primary brain function from dopamine and cortisol base, to see base. Dopamine-cortisol is the pleasure, fear, anger, boredom pathway. Serotonin is the contentment pathway. Under dopamine is about motivation, improvement, achievement, goals, good food good money. It's the doing pathway of our brain, it also what allows our brain to track time, to get bored over time. To have a sense of time. And we need it to survive. It's also designed/evolved to make us feel bored when you use it too much. To want something new. To not be content with what we have. To chase the next big thing. In itself it is unsustainable. It pleasure reduces on the same resistive thing. If it's didn't it brain circuits would fry and we would stop trying to improve our lives. So liked if you eat your favourite food all the time, you'll get bored of it. But if you have breaks three pleasure experience will build up again. True of everything pleasure. Sex, games, food, drugs like heroin etc etc. Not so with serotonin. Serotonin pathway if it primarily engaged over dopamine, you will not be bored no matter what. It does track time. It creates a feeling of contentment and safety. It never seeks improvement or growth in itself. It also makes one feel closer to spiritual realm or god etc. It's there pathway that is engaged under hallucinogenics, and near death experiences. People who go deep into these, describe the experience as being timeless. There is no idea of time or boredom. Things can feel like hundreds of years in these experiences or time can lose all it's meaning and so does boredom. These two pathways need to work in balance or we would die of starvation. If we just lived in a timeless state of contentment, our bodies would die. But if we just pleasure chase we become very unhappy. Think of unhappy rich people, there are lots of them. Then contest it with the happy or person. There are many examples of this as well. Of course there are also many happy rich people and a huge amount of unhappy poor people. You can experience a shift in this yourselfif you learn effe tive meditation. I can be really bored, sit down meditate, which litterally is a cessation of chasing what's pleasurable. At first I'll become more bored and irritated. But then as I go deeper into it, after about 10 minutes, I become less bored, by doing the most boring thing ever. I also start to lose the bed to track time. it feels good but it is not pleasure. It's contentment, acceptance, safety. There's nothing to do. I actually feel more excited about doing things that may have bored me previously, 20 mins earlier. I would hypothesise that if there is a heaven and we had the same physical neurological and psychological base that we do as humans, we would sit more in this timeless serotonin state. That never gets bored, makes boring things more interesting, and that teaches time not at all, or with far less importance. I've only really scratched the surface here. Happy to talk with you more about this. 😊

[@resikat]

I'm sorry, I'm respectfully asking.. what exactly is an agnostic atheist? I never heard that before.. I thought one was either atheist or agnostic. (Sorry, I'm totally ignoring your whole comment about boredom.)

[@Lerian_V]

53:00 - 54:05 The heart of the matter. Trent nailed it. The movement from a natural "is" (Natural law) to a moral "ought" (Moral law) is based on the most fundamental moral precept: good is to be done, and evil is to be avoided. Aquinas explains that just as "being" is the first thing that falls under the apprehension of the speculative reason (reasoning to what is), the "good" is the first thing that falls under the apprehension of the practical reason, which is directed toward action. For Aquinas, this must be the case, since every human “acts for an end under the aspect of good” (Summa Theologiae I-II:94:2). What Aquinas means here is that whatever human beings do, they do because they think it will be good for them in some way. Even the murderer’s end goal may be the elimination of an enemy, or the satisfaction of his anger. Even the thief aims for the good of his victim’s money. Even the atheist who rejects [the true] God perceives his rejection of God as a good. Even the unrepentant sinner who chooses eternal separation from God, which is what hell is, perceives this separation (hell) as a good. Etc etc. Since all men seek the good, whether real or merely apparent, Aquinas concludes that seeking the good is the first principle of practical reason. From this he derives the first moral precept: “Good is to be done and pursued, and evil is to be avoided.” All other precepts are based on this primary precept. Herein lies the key for deriving moral precepts from the natural ordering of human faculties, and in particular the sexual faculty. If we ought always do what is good, and the good is determined by the ends ('telos') toward which our faculties are ordered, then we ought to always use them in a way that is consistent with their ends and avoid using them in a way that frustrates those ends. To use our sexual faculties in ways opposed to their ends is to act irrationally, since reason tells us what is good for our nature. It is contrary to our human dignity, since the ability to act in accord with reason is the identifying mark of a human being. It is also to act immorally, since we are not doing what we ought. Finally, it is to harm our chances for flourishing, for succeeding in the art of being human. Everyone, including atheists, know [the true] God implicitly, because they desire "the ultimate good" (or "the good itself"), which is God. The problem is that atheists have bought into the Occamist/Fundamentalist/Calvinist concept of God - an all mighty, all powerful, irrational, sometimes loving, sometimes unloving, dictator god. That is NOT the true God, according to the [Catholic] Church. That's an erroneous understanding of God.

[@drackoni-han13]

The biblical god created evil

[@Lerian_V]

@@drackoni-han13 Says atheists and Fundamentalists.

[@a.39886]

If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@drackoni-han13

[@drackoni-han13]

@@a.39886 One of the many reasons he is evil A tyrant who says "do not kill" yet kills himself. He and all his supporters are thus guilty as charged

[@a.39886]

God`s ways are supreme even if all his creation will end up suffering eternal torture in hell, God wouldn`t be any less just.@@drackoni-han13

[@SuperSaiyanKrillin]

I enjoy these discussions because it allows us to think more deeply about heaven instead of just calling it 'eternal happiness' and leaving it at that.

[@hunivan7672]

I dont think there is anything wrong with "just leaving it at that".

[@stevendouglas3781]

Yeah, but it’s perhaps best to leave it at that. This guy has some goofy ideas because he’s thought too much about it. Have faith that God isn’t a corrupt carnival ringleader.

[@gabri41200]

​​​@@hunivan7672 there is something wrong. "Eternal happiness" may be just some eternal drug extasy, but this experience wouldn't have any value. Eternal happiness or pleasure is simply not good. I would argue eternal anything is not good. Life is precious because it is finite.

[@noantipodes5251]

Get this man a new iPhone 15 Pro titanium- quick before he gets bored but with the ability to upgrade every 12 months rather than 24 months - full annihilation upgrade not available with this plan.

[@Cklert]

@@gabri41200Being in the direct presence of the Lord is by definition good. Because ontologically God *is* Good. The direct source. Not at all like chasing some high.

[@adam11830]

When I listen to talks like this, I can't help but think that this whole system of Earth, Heaven, Hell, redemption, etc are just so very contrived. Feels like man has warped these ideas to fit our understanding of morality and the world today. Nothing about this conversation feels like how it feels when I read the Bible.

[@richardmorrison3602]

Brandon. You did an exceptional job. Keep up the good work.

[@newglof9558]

My personal take: a discussion on heaven should also entail a discussion on the nature of the will, or "the faculty of choice/deliberate action." We, as humans, possess human bodies and human minds (including human wills). What unites the all things willed? All things that are willed by humans are willed because they're believed to be good or bring about goodness in at least some way by the person committing the action (of course, this isn't to say they are good. One who chooses to murder might believe it's good, or, at least, better than any alternative, though it does not make it good). In this sense, a will can be seen as a kind of actualization of the good from becoming to being. With regards to heaven, one way to look at it is the place where the intellect has no confusion about the nature of the good, and the will continuously pursues and receives the good. Hell, by contrast, is where the will is necessarily cut off from the good, and is the will is inherently deprived into nothingness. There's probably more to say here and this might be somewhat crude but that's one way that I see it.

[@stevendouglas3781]

Good stuff. This also ties in nicely to the idea that Hell is locked from the inside. Where gentlemen like this seem to think part of his afterlife destiny should involve annihilation. That is the “good” his will seeks in death. He is willingly cutting himself off from the good, basically because he is scared. He doesn’t have enough faith in God (being an atheist) to be able to successfully create paradise. Thus disqualifying himself from it.

[@katiedid8192]

There is an old adage “ time flies when we are having fun”. Perfect happiness seems endless- infinite knowledge is timeless. God is also happiness and we will be part of that happiness. Don’t think we can begin to understand. Trust in God.

[@eprd313]

@@stevendouglas3781 what makes you think that a god who lies is trustworthy?

[@stevendouglas3781]

@@eprd313 why should I trust you?

[@eprd313]

@@stevendouglas3781 you shouldn't. Just like I shouldn't trust you much less an old immoral book written by primitive tribalistic men

[@markgiles3]

Thank you. Great discussion.

[@praytojesuschristhelistens6231]

This is a very interesting conversation. Thanks for bringing it up.

[@juanjosefortin3828]

I really thought it was Trent debating Michael Lofton when I saw the video thumbnail haha. Great content btw!

[@jdelarosa89]

1. Thanks to both speakers for having good quality mics. 2. Trust in God can pretty much solve Brandon’s concerns. 3. What if God is… awesome, all loving, all kind (which I think most Christians believe)? Then please Lord, let me go to heaven.

[@shawnboahene5231]

I think Brandon’s concerns lie in the 3rd point you made. Us Christians know God and we know that since He’s there we’re going to have a great time because of our relationship with Him. But it seems Brandon doesn’t like God or trust him, which is why heaven is closed to unbelievers and why hell is indeed a choice.

[@MrFireman164]

The problem exists with the biblical character of god, moody, vengeful, angry, jealous and also unconditionally loving ? It doesn’t work. Killing men, women, children and animals isn’t loving. Jesus said love your enemies, contradicting from Yahweh, there is way too much of this, also if you do your homework Yahweh was a mythical storm god, how is it that you believe this but not believe in Zeus or any other of the thousands of gods out there, because you were born or came to a Christian country, taught as a child this belief and it’s to hard to turn against what you have believed to be true your whole life, also the fallout from family and friends it’s just to much, even if it’s not true.

[@winterland3253]

"What if heaven is too good tho"

[@michellemcdermott2026]

The moment I receive Jesus in Holy Communion is a momemt I want to experience forever.

[@LiamLoves]

It sounds like you have a beautiful faith, I hope to love Jesus as much as you one day.

[@michellemcdermott2026]

@@LiamLoves Jesus loves you( and me)more than either of us could ever love Him!! God bless you.

[@Tijaxtolan]

I love how brandon posting this in his channel will make his fans and the tradcaths clash and fight

[@j.h.9376]

Chesterton addressed this more beautifullythan we can. "Because children have abounding vitality, because they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say, ‘Do it again’; and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown-up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But perhaps God is strong enough to exult in monotony. It is possible that God says every morning, ‘Do it again’ to the sun; and every evening, ‘Do it again’ to the moon. It may not be automatic necessity that makes all daisies alike; it may be that God makes every daisy separately, but has never got tired of making them. It may be that He has the eternal appetite of infancy; for we have sinned and grown old, and our Father is younger than we. The repetition in Nature may not be a mere recurrence; it may be a theatrical ENCORE.” -G.K. Chesterton, “The Ethics of Elfland,” Orthodoxy

[@Xairos84]

Beautiful

[@oldmovieman7550]

Just because you can’t conceive of how something wouldn’t be exciting after so many billions of years doesn’t mean it won’t be.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

Doesn’t mean it will be, either. And the fact that heaven seems incoherent on its face seems a strong objection, when the only response is a weak appeal to mystery.

[@oldmovieman7550]

@@weirdwilliam8500why do you think heaven is incoherent?

[@l21n18]

@@weirdwilliam8500I don’t think so, lots of things are inconceivable at certain times but are true.

[@ComicRaptor8850]

@@weirdwilliam8500 Then it can't be used as an objection. And though it may seem incoherent at first thought, Trent provided multiple plausible explanations that could help us to understand how it might work. We need to remember that we're trying to understand an infinite reality from a finite perspective. To make an analogy, the fact that we cannot conceive what a fourth spatial dimension would be like does not make it less likely to exist.

[@RealAtheology]

Really appreciate Trent giving 2 hours of his time to engage a charitable skeptic on this issue. I wish more apologists were as open to these kinds of things as Trent is. Would be interesting to see how Brandon feels about some of Peter Kreeft's books on the subject.

[@gainsofglory6414]

This will definitely be interesting. I am joining the church and committing, but I agree that the way we describe and envision heaven makes it sound truly awful. I just take the position that we simple fallen people don't have any capacity to actually understand heaven and thats why our own devised expectations of heaven sound so bad. Thanks for posting such a relevant topic that I have been discussing lately, and I hope some others come by to comment here and start a discussion. My main concerns are that human joy is built upon struggle. Earning things, testing yourself, improving yourself, growth and change. We want adventure and battle, gain and loss. We want victory, and gratification of enjoying our fruits that are earned. A heaven that offers none of this, and is even given to us entirely by grace and of no merit, is baffling. Either we have heaven wrong or we are not the same when we go and our human side does not come with us. I don't see anyone thinking we can sign up for St. Michaels army to get glorious heavenly armor and fight demons defending the walls of the new kingdom but sign me up for that if its possible. I doubt that is the case but a heaven that offers no such struggle and overcoming of conflict is very off putting. Modern life is already so comfy and boring. We spoiled moderns envy lives of history, and people of history envy our cushioned lives today. And after long enough we each would envy to be back where we started, and then switch again. There is no single physicial world where we can all be satisfied, we all want different worlds. One thing we do need to get away from is leaving it to empty phrases like "eternally praise god" that doesn't communicate anything to anyone.

[@thethreefriends3002]

"we want victory, and gratification of enjoying our fruits that are earned." My friend, Heaven is truly that, a victory

[@gainsofglory6414]

@@thethreefriends3002 ya but that doesn't say anything. Thats not fleshing out the idea at all, the concept of eternity, any of that. What is the fruit, what do we get in this victory, etc. There is no possible way to make it sound good to a limited, temporal mind. However you describe that victory, it will sound terrible with our limitations. Even the thought of no more battles ahead and no new trials and victories sucks. Luckily we won't be our limited temporal selves if we should arrive there and can trust god has it figured out.

[@azrael516]

​@@gainsofglory6414My friend, heaven is already a victory.

[@azrael516]

​@@gainsofglory6414all

[@Cuffsmaster]

That is because the religious text that Heaven is based on does not give a clear view of what it will be like. God is surely smart enough to tell us what heaven is actually like ...... or .. is he afraid to let us know because many would be disappointed. Some of the things described like "streets of gold" are really unimportant and have nothing to do with happy living. It paints a great imagination image but mean nothing.

[@sbm1994]

Honestly I always found this argument silly: boredom involves a very specific physical state of the brain. That’s why things that are normally boring on ADHD medication become incredibly interesting. I don’t think boredom will be physically possible in the resurrected glorified bodies in the New Heaven and New Earth.

[@joshuabarnes7552]

The state of our brain makes us who we are. Are you saying God would somehow make us take a heighten interest in things without every being tired of them? How would that not affect our free will and sense of self?

[@joeterp5615]

This was a great dialogue, as there was no “talking down.” I completely understand the questions, as they come from a philosophical mind that is seeking truth. As a child, my worst fear was of the concept of eternity. The idea of living forever, …and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever… disturbed me greatly. We aren’t wired to understand the infinite while in this finite world. The bible gives us hints at heaven, but many by way of analogy based on those things that give us joy in this life - so it’s not an exact description. These were really all excellent questions here. And I think Catholicism is vastly superior to Protestantism in providing a framework to consider these questions. As much as I had a problem contemplating living forever, then how much more do we come up short in our understanding of concepts like “God IS love.” We can say the words, but then put full consideration of concept aside and move on to our musings about what SEEMS logical or illogical to us about the Christian God and how heaven has been described. But if God is real, then the nature of his reality is… everything. We are severely limited by our minds in grasping the reality of God and heaven, just like a child is not fully able to grasp what it will be like to be a grown-up. Is this a cop out when presented with questions about heaven? Yes, in some respects it absolutely is, as there is no doubt that many things are left up to faith, that we can’t fully understand on this earth. Yet, Catholic teaching and theology, paired with reason does provide answers on some level - answers that are coherent and consistent when understood IMO. Yet even perfected Saints who were in such communion with Christ that they would no longer sin while on this earth, even they still would not have been able to describe heaven in exact detail. The question about how we behave in the here-and-now and why we do so is excellent too. Catholicism absolutely answers this one. It is part of the central debate with Protestants, as they think it doesn’t matter once you are “saved.” But it DOES matter a great deal, as we are commanded to love one another as Christ loved us. We are disobeying the greatest commandment if we don’t love others as Christ did. Individual Catholics fail in living this out, but it is clearly commanded that we love. Looking past our existence on earth to heaven can certainly be done in a spiritually unhealthy way. The propositions of Christianity are not simple to grasp. But if only using the bible and personal prayer to try to answer difficult questions, then the challenge of finding satisfying answers becomes more difficult by several orders of magnitude. Then again, why we have an ordered universe, concepts of good and evil, and a seeming pre-programming to believe in some concept of god or gods - these are also vexing questions without easy answers. We should all be truth-seekers, taking our time and humbly considering all the evidence we can. This was the first time I’ve seen Brandon. I like him. He didn’t make sophomoric straw-man refutations of Christianity here. Basically, the questions he asked are those that anyone could have when pondering philosophically about heaven - including Christians. He’s a smart guy who presents himself and his thoughts extremely well.

[@Quekksilber]

Eye has not seen, ear has not heard...

[@pcjgrjpaj]

Great honest discussion, although I don’t think Trent gave good enough reason Christians have for the hope of Heaven, that it cannot nor ever will be boring. We will be united perfectly with the infinite God, unchanging yet always new, infinite love and no end to joy. It will be impossible to be bored in Heaven throughout all Eternity. It is mind boggling and our finite minds cannot grasp the infinite, the true Glory of God.

[@jhoughjr1]

I think his first assumption is a big one. We will not be anything like we are now. So anything that follows from that doesnt seem solid.

[@charlestownsend9280]

So we wouldn't be ourselves?

[@gabri41200]

But if we aren't going to be anything like we are now, then we really do are anihilated in the end of this life. Whatever being enjoys eternal life, it will not be us anymore. This life is finite.

[@pawlaovicto7824]

1:09:40. The conversation is going great so far. As a Christian, I don't like how Brandon posed the questions on his previous video, since, in my perception, it seems a lot like idolizing free-will and the finite. Nonetheless, Trent and Brandon are bringing out the best of one another.

[@slow9573]

I think it's possible here that I'm very simple-minded and a very simple person, but when I envision heaven in my simple way I am not fearful of time at all. To exist amongst the Lord, without any pain anywhere in my body, in the perfect temperature, the perfect breeze perhaps to always feel comfort, to have clarity of mind and have perfect capability to contemplate God and those back on Earth and to create perfect prayers with perfect patience; all of this seems to exist in each moment with joy that I can barely even imagine. Further, there's no injustice, and those that chose evil are where they chose to be.... just musing here. I don't have any issue with worrying about boredom at all. Even if I've learned every skill a human can learn and practiced it all and had conversations with all humans in heaven, I still don't have any concern about boredom. I'm in perfection. Why would I be concerned with monotony? Existence in perfection is by its nature not monotonous. I don't need to always have some new knowledge to learn. I don't need access to infinite knowledge.

[@michaelmbogori]

Exactly what I was thinking myself. Sounds like Brandon was thinking about hell. If it's possible to live without boredom on earth at least for some bits of your life, how much more heaven. If there was boredom in heaven, I still want to be there. It is incomprehensible to me to be bored in the presence of the Almighty, Goodness itself.

[@a.39886]

uIf God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@michaelmbogori

[@OldMotherLogo]

Amusing to me how Trent and a number of commenters who are convinced they know exactly what heaven is like and how God operates. Also amusing to me the number of comments that fixate on the boredom point, leading me to think that many didn’t listen very far into this conversation. I do hope that some folks take some time to listen to Brandon’s podcast. I particularly enjoy his secular Bible series, something a lot of Catholics could learn from since so many Catholics don’t really read the Bible.

[@EmberBright2077]

Alternatively it seems like atheists are convinced they know what Heaven will be like...

[@OldMotherLogo]

Most atheists don’t believe in heaven. Or hell.

[@Xairos84]

A lot of thought on something not believed in 😂. Of course believers have thoughts on heaven

[@OldMotherLogo]

We are constantly confronted with claims about heaven, hell, deity, and afterlife by those around us so it’s unavoidable. In addition, many apostates were traumatized by threats of hell and it can take years for them to get over it or just to recover from having been immersed in so much superstition for their entire lives. So yes, we do think about these things. Our culture is saturated with it.

[@azrael516]

Hey, atheists don't want to be sure what heaven is like either? As far as I know, it's not just us.

The problem of Brandon is - like that of many other atheists - that he is judging infinite things from a finite viewpoint. Applying finite categories to the infinite is possible, but in the awareness that we are talking about approximations, in an imperfect, allegorical manner. I am not saying that we Christians can clearly explain the terminal human state of beatitude in a satisfactory way, since it transcends our current understanding. But at least we talk about heaven without the claim of having a position from which we could overview or judge it.- That said, the dialogue contains interesting contributions - for instance, I can share the experience that it is the finiteness of a thing which makes it valuable - an experience that we have while living in this world. This is what makes our finite lives on Earth so precious. I am sure that we can send back all the joyful but finite, bound things into the eternal realm, to the Creator who designed us in this finite condition and thereby made these experiences possible.

[@tomlabooks3263]

Yes. And his extreme literalism, of course.

[@adamcosper3308]

Aren't you in the same position of judging the infinite from a finite perspective? Even if Yahweh is real, couldn't you be wrong about his character?

[@tomlabooks3263]

@@adamcosper3308 Q2:,Not if you have faith in Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the OT tradition. Q1: Of course, we are all in that same position. But opening to God means, like Rudiger said very well, that “at least we talk about heaven without the claim of having a position from which we could overview or judge it”. The atheistic standpoint doesn’t realize that the sheer existence of anything cannot be demonstrated, because saying “only things that I can verify in nature exist” is a philosophical statement. How can you prove that statement with science? You can’t.

[@adamcosper3308]

@@tomlabooks3263 Q1 What makes you think that I believe that "only things that I can verify in nature exist?" It just seems weird to me how certain you seem about things that you say are beyond human knowledge. Q2. We agree that we have a finite perspective, yes? How then can you presume to sit in judgement of Yahweh? Calling him good is a judgement. What if your limited human perspective on Yahweh turns out to be wrong and he's perfectly evil? And the Old Testament is part of his perfectly evil word that Jesus than fulfills to doom us to be eternal slaves to an evil creator? Who are you to judge?

[@tomlabooks3263]

@@adamcosper3308 Q1. That’s called faith. Q2. That’s the point of faith. I already answered your questions. If you don’t believe in the reality of God, I most certainly cannot convince you! Peace.

[@TheSuperTeacherStudent]

So glad to see @mindshift and Brandon on 'mainstream Christian' media. His message helps so many people who have seen the truth through reason and logic. Ironically, leaving Christianity/Catholicism freed me from so much agony and frustrations. I'm grateful for mindshift and Brandon for having the guts to minister to those of us who are recovering from the YEARS of brainwashing we endured. It's interesting to watch this and see how people who have never been to heaven think they have the authority to describe it.

[@azrael516]

A meaningless vision??

[@Gerschwin]

Ooh! This is good. I'm going to bet this guy's from the reformed/Calvinist tradition. If I did not trip and fall into catholic circles this would be how I would also think. Thank the lord for divine simplicity/classical theism. It was a game changer for me.

[@Wiemcc]

Same here Calvinist tradition gave me the same thoughts about heaven and eternity

[@Gerschwin]

@@Wiemcc .... and God.

[@Charlotte_Martel]

Brandon was raised in the Assembly of God church (Evangelical/Pentecostal).

[@Gerschwin]

@@Charlotte_Martel Ah I see. Thanks for the info. I stand corrected then.

[@Charlotte_Martel]

@@Gerschwin No worries. Brandon states this on his channel, but it was not discussed here.

[@agihernandez7846]

Very fruitful conversation. I really like his arguments or questions. Some time. I found this conversation very scholarly 😅. However it challenges me to deep think. The only thing I will contribute or raise question is to how is Brandon, think heaven or hell only two options is robbing people of free will, my thoughts go not wanting to be happy it kinda not been happy and that’s hell? I don’t know I feel like at the end of someone’s life or end of times, you have 2 choices a 3rd choice I think we seen it thru scripture where some angel reveal against God. Maybe I’m over thinking. Anyhow love this talks 🙌 Thank Brandon and Trent for your time making this video available for us.

[@ST-ov8cm]

Imagining a timeless Heaven seems to be beyond our comprehension. As does a state of infinite goodness. We equate infinite Heaven with infinite time on a clock.

[@Xairos84]

This! So many of our presuppositions are centered around our flesh. I often wonder what we would be like if we were unshackled from it.

[@JosePerez-is6nn]

Thanks to both speakers and everyone in the comments 😅

[@lilnallie05]

I have only been a Christian for a year and a half and looking into Catholic doctrine for a few months but my issue with his argument is well heaven will have no free will if we can’t choose to opt out if we get bored then turn around and say well why can’t god create a world with no starving children and less suffering? Isn’t it because we won’t have free will? I feel like his ultimate issue is the issue of suffering and because he doesn’t have a solution to this problem heaven will never be good enough because he doesn’t understand a GOD that will allow suffering. I would love to know why he lost his faith.

[@jhoughjr1]

Very good observations. As a somewhat recent christian I can say everyone gets to or away from god on their own path and no two are the same. Maybe that's the personal aspect of god.

[@charlestownsend9280]

I think the point is that if heaven is a paradise and free will doesn't exist then the free will arguement for allowing suffering on earth doesn't work (it also doesn't work for several other huge reasons), so why not just cut out a few unnecessary steps and just make earth heaven.

[@charlestownsend9280]

I can understand a god that allows suffering, the problem is that such a god that does wouldn't deserve praise and worship and that isn't what the Christian god is described as, instead being given traits such as all loving or all good (despite many of their claimed actions contradicting it). A god who is all loving or all good amd who wants to be worshipped and loved allowing suffering makes very little sense. A hands off god, like one who just creates a universe amd then leaves it to do its own thing or just observes it as an experiment, suffering would male complete sense. It would also are sense with an evil god, who delights to causing pain and suffering to lower lifeforms, like a bully with a magnifying glass and an ant hill. The problem is the claim that you have an all loving/good god who is also all powerful and all knowing, so has the power and knowledge to do literally anything and they just sit their and watch as children suffer short painful lives knowing only agony. And then people question why people don't belive in such a good or wouldn't worship and praise such a god.

[@annb9029]

I’m sure it was deconstruction it’s rampant in evangelical and fundamentalist circles

[@lilnallie05]

@@charlestownsend9280 okay firstly you are approaching the argument with a lot of presuppositions that enable you to come to the conclusion you have. Firstly we believe we have an all powerful, omniscient loving god who exists outside of time so can see the present past and future. So who is to say that this created world was not the best possible world. We need suffering. You see famous people’s children who always got what they wanted and never worked a day in their lives and are so unhappy and ungrateful. If I use my life as an example I have MS so I can’t walk properly, and I have lost my brother. As a agnostic I was depressed with the nihilistic world view. But then I found my faith and my whole outlook has changed I have joy which I never did before and I believe that when I die and by the grace of GOD I get to heaven I will be happy because I’m in a better place. There are a lot of videos that deal with the problem of suffering and if you are really interested you can have a look.

[@markfrideres284]

Brandon should concede the boring heaven argument because these two keeping me engaged for over two hours with logical conclusions of a skeptic's subjective internal critiques about evil. It could have been a five minute conversation on epistemic certainty of an internal critique, but instead showed seeking truth in communion is never boring.

[@Tornadospeed10]

I think this entire video is well brought up at about the 18 minute mark and perfectly illustrates heaven vs hell. The fact of the matter is God is all love and perfect in his eternality. Atheist simply reject God based on their personal opinions of Gods character and morality, this they do not want to be with God forever and end up in a state of hell after death. This is key for our understanding of why some end up in heaven and some in hell. Why those in heaven will be in eternal bliss.

[@Thekeytolifeismusic]

@MindShiftSkeptic was very convincing. Wonderful dialogue both ways, but I found Trent’s answers mostly wanting in the face of Brandon’s followups.

[@l21n18]

No they were pretty lacklustre, I have never found this argument convincing

[@S1leNtRIP]

As someone who leans towards Christian universalism, and is at the very least annihilationist, I still found Trent’s answers very solid. To have a perfected will, and to understand the nature of choice, consequence, and justice enough to want people to have that option, and to regret, though not append constant sorrow to, a loved ones choice against God…all this seems in line with how humans can and do exist on earth, and seems perfectly justified at the resurrection. Also, while there will be no sorrow in heaven, true heartbreak and sorrow almost always comes from a mismatch in expectation (for me at least). If we have perfected expectations, physical pain can exist, but is overwhelmed by hope and joy, to the point of inconsequence.

[@newglof9558]

Wild, I found the opposite. Brandon's objections were really elementary.

[@timbertome2443]

Trent's answers were mostly like: "well, if we assume an infinitely wise and creative God, then I'm sure that God *could* make heaven/reality in such a way as to not have any of the glaringly obvious problems it does." They are wishes and just-so rationalizations. Of course maybe we could imagine a God that might be able to make things differently or conjure eternal happiness without the attendant problems, but that's not the question, nor even an answer. It's like saying "I hear your objection, and I think there *could* be a possible satisfactory answer by someone much smarter than me..." It's just not an answer itself. It's a cop-out. Also, Trent seems to forget thst even if infinite happiness will cancel out 70-100 years of carnal suffering, the infinite misery and suffering of hell is also present, matching infinite suffering of the damned with the infinite happiness of the saved.

[@33AD-Catholic]

I found both Brandon's objections and replies simplistic and limited while Trent's were solid and led to deeper understandings rather than superficial ones.

[@catholicguy1073]

I think it’s hard to project what we think heaven will be like. We will be with God and as St Augustine said our hearts are restless until they rest in thee. So like we drink coffee and just hang out everyday, go bowling or whatever ? I tend to think heaven will be different than we can imagine because it is for eternity. We will exist outside of time but will be aware of time due to being aware of what is going on on earth (at least until earth ends). So from that perspective it’s going to be very different than being in time

[@DungNguyen-vn3eu]

This world is quite evil yet I still have good days living in this world. Heaven without evilness would be great to live in for eternity.

[@computationaltheist7267]

Exactly. I really don't get this atheist.

[@verwesne8121]

I chose to believe in a harmonization between the biblical tenets of God/Jesus and eternal life as a catholic believer while also listening carefully to thousands upon thousands of testimonials and Insights of near death experiences, astral travels and the like. And there will not be a moment of boredom as far as I can say, there are so many activities, From being creative to learning, growing in wisdom and understanding, spending time with loved ones and other souls and “beings” for lack of a better word. I mean while listening tentatively and carefully digesting such accounts, we can be assured that of you are a decent good human who has faith love and goodness of heart and character in this life. The upcoming experience will be that of excitement and love. The crazy thing is that this is not mandatory to study while being on earth, it would give so many people hope and a great perspective 👍👍🌟

[@soystudios2778]

I was listening intently and I'm trying to comprehend everything Brandon is saying, but I somehow got lost on "opting out on Heaven" or "True Annihilation", that's tough.

[@jhoughjr1]

Yes these are deep questions with nothing terribly clear.

[@charlestownsend9280]

What's difficult about it? Part of the idea is free will if you have free will to choose where you go then there has to be that option. Also no matter how great an afterlife is eventually it will become a nightmare. Say heaven is somewhere where you can be who you want, have the body you want do everything you ever dreamed of doing forever but eventually you will have done it all but you still have eternity. Eternity is comforting to those who haven't accepted the fact of death and realise that it has an important role in how we function as a species (we have a time limit and that drives us to do things and enjoy what we have and do). Once you get past the fear of death and you think about what an eternity really easy it's horrifying. I don't want to die tomorrow but I also don't want to exist forever, I don't need to exist forever, no mpre than a piece of art needs to exist forever, i exist, i have an impact and then others take my place and build upon what i have left, that's enough. What do you do when you've done everything? I'd want the option to leave that heaven.

[@bernardobeninifantin509]

@@charlestownsend9280 "Do it all" is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too limited for an infinite God. Also, beware of verbs: they involve time spans, while that exists not in eternity.

[@thebeboshow4421]

I don’t see why we couldn’t just be born in heaven if it’s where we’re supposed to be 🤷‍♀️

[@soystudios2778]

@@charlestownsend9280 I understand. I honestly have the same conversation with someone about eternity. I have the exact "fear" of what itmight be like. I'm not really talking about heaven, but just the concept of eternity. My dad died of cancer and my mom had a stroke, she's still alive to this day. The amount of suffering I've seen is honestly horrendous. I guess I'm hoping that it won't be the case on the other side, other realm. heaven or eternity. If there are billions of stars in a single galaxy and the galaxies are almost infinte and I'm just hoping that it was created for a greater good or meaning. I dunno know it never really occurred to me about the concept of Annihilation. Perhaps, I just thought that the possibilities are endless.

[@loganjackson675]

I’m not sure if this clashes with the Catholic perspective on heaven but I’d love to hear his responses put against CS Lewis’ conception of heaven/hell as outlined in The Great Divorce. Put simply, it is that Hell is a state of being trapped in one’s own self and Heaven is the purest form of reality. People in hell do not regretfully desire to be in heaven, but they remain in rebellion against God, and people in heaven are in union with God because they’ve chosen it too. It’s not that those in Heaven cannot possibly choose to not be there, it’s that everyone who exists there is there because they want to be. In other words, heaven and hell are self selecting. Those people who wouldn’t desire to be in heaven were never there to begin with, and vice versa with hell, so there would never be a case of individuals becoming disillusioned with heaven because of various temporal reasons

[@sivad1025]

The boredom argument resonates with me, but it highlights a humorous tension in atheism where they simultaneously complain that there's too much pain for God to exist but heaven is too boring because there's no pain. In 2020, it became clear that unbelievers are obsessed with prolonging life. Clearly, existence isn't all that boring to them.

[@l21n18]

That’s a good point, as an agnostic let me say that I have never found the boredom objection to be remotely persuasive and I think it’s based on an inability to conceive of anything beyond one’s existence

[@BardicLiving]

I don't know if the objection is to a lack of pain specifically but more to the monotony of experiencing any one state for an infinite stretch of time. (That doesn't mean boredom is inevitable, of course, as they discuss in the video.)

[@HodgePodgeVids1]

Just 400 subscribers left until 100k. Silver play button here we come

[@47StormShadow]

The first point hits home deeply for me. I had a full on existential crisis about this point when I was 9...it's haunted me ever since and, I'm really not trying to be hyperbolic, I wonder if the vast majority of my sins are not running away from that thought in fear. I'm not very satisfied with the speculations Trent offers either, I would be grateful if he or anyone else could offer insight

[@allgtg3]

First off, you have to know you are not the only believer to have these fears. You’re not strange or weird. I have had mental crisis over subjects I had no answer to. Over time I have realized that these questions are either not essential for belief, or I actually found solutions. I have learned to trust God more and more and just give stuff like this to him. If he is the creator of all things, I think he can be trusted far more than we understand. If he is our creator, he knows exactly what we need as well. I have a very simple/essential method in my approach. It wasn’t easy to get here. It takes faith and trust. Letting go of the need to be right, and the need to understand everything. Focus on the essentials and get away from all the rabbit holes. Think about the human body. Think about how complex one of our cells are, all the way to how our digestive system works and the trillions of light cells in our eyes that allow us to see color and how our ears can hear and our tongues can taste, etc. Im sure you have heard the saying “the devil is in the details” and its true. Start thinking essential. Hopefully I was able to help a little. Theres a difference in explanation and experience though. My experience has shown me God is Good and that I can trust him. Much love, take care.

[@47StormShadow]

@@allgtg3 thank you for saying all that, it's helping me walk back from an emotional abyss. I don't think it's a coincidence that while I'm finally getting my chastity in order and resisting more and more temptations the devil has switched gears to attacking my faith.

[@sivad1025]

I think food offers a good example because you can have a good meal every day and you never grow tired of eating. There are very few things than humans can do and never grow bored of, likely because of the fall, but they give a hint of what that may be like in heaven. It's not a truly satisfying answer, but for me I rely on faith that my understanding of pleasure is too limited to conceive of what it's like in eternity to be always content. But I have a hint of it on earth so I have a vague idea of what it could be like

[@47StormShadow]

@@sivad1025 I hear you, and that's a good way to look at it, but for me what drives me almost into hysteria isn't exactly things that we could do but rather the concept of time. When I try to imagine enjoying endless succession my mind reels. I can understand the earthly reasons for my distress and I'm a limited creature, I can't fit eternity into my brain or soul. Nevertheless my distress is there. Ultimately, like you say, faith is the only response that will do. All this gives me a deeper understanding of why the chap in this video and others long for death. It's the only peace that they can imagine.

[@vsklblos8060]

I overcome this first objection when I was thinking about creativity that is in us, humans. Just take a moment to think about all great things that were invented. Now, if are even we humans capable of making such great things, I think nothing will prevent God, infinitely more powerful being, from creating better things for us forever, and for us to maybe get also involved into this process. Because we can never reach infinite number of things, I think in heaven we will always for all eternity enjoy something new because of God’s infinite creativity.

[@trippbond41]

One issue I haven't seen discussed on the issue of free will on Heaven is that God doesn't take away your free will. I stead, per Augustine, He frees your will from evil with your consent. We make a free will decision here on Earth to give up our ability to commit sin upon death, or to do good upon death. But we have made that decision and it was free. And, a free will need not necessitate the ability to choose evil, that's just bad meta-ethics

[@AnonOmous-lj1qn]

Good point

[@FahlosueeWoWStream]

It's not that we can't do things in heaven, but once our will is 'perfect' we won't want to do those. To will something is to want something, i'd ask this guy if he'd want to be a shitty friend to all his buddies that he goes on a trip with. He has the option to do that, but has the perfect knowledge to know that its not a good and therefore wouldn't WANT to, or WILL to.

[@adamcosper3308]

My limited perspective is literally what makes me be me. Take that away and I'm dead. Whatever thing lives on in heaven wouldn't be me. It'd be God playing whatever remains like a kid with a doll.

[@FahlosueeWoWStream]

@@adamcosper3308 you aren't giving yourself or God credit. You are a different man today than you were yesterday let alone 20 years ago. You are capable of and created for being much more than you are limiting yourself to.

[@SeasideDetective2]

I like to believe a teaching from both Greek and Chinese mythology - that souls drink a mystical water or potion to forget everything that's happened to them up to that point. I imagine we'd do that an infinite number of times, and thus never get bored of experiencing the same sensations time and again.

[@oldfashioned9461]

This is a fantastic dialogue. I can relate and do understand where many of Brandon's arguments are coming from. What I think is the roadblock with Brandon's questioning is lack of trust that God knows what's best for us. This is a powerful know. He has complete knowledge of his creation, not merely opinions or estimations of what likely can work, like we as humans do. God knows in the full sense of the word. He knows us better than we know ourselves, as perplexing as that can be particularly to a non-believer. He knows we are complete in heaven. There's not even a .000001% (or smaller) chance we'll grow tired or bored with heaven because while it in many respects is still quite mysterious, God is there and fulfills us entirely.

[@ZeusAssassin]

You can't trust an inconsistent God crafted by various men over hundreds of year. The Christian mythos fails to establish trust in a meaningful way.

[@oldfashioned9461]

​@@ZeusAssassinI think a neat and clean story would actually decrease credibility. Many fictional stories are that way, able to be comprehended by a large audience without much study. The variety of authors and writing style yet with so much overlapping themes over large spans of time I believe add to the credibility of the Scriptures.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

Brandon did a fantastic job. Thoughtful and cogent arguments. I see him becoming a strong contributor to atheism/deconversion. A tip of the cap, good sir.

[@AnonOmous-lj1qn]

Everytime someone uses this 18th century type of phrasing that nobody in the modern world uses except occasionally for youtube comments I imagine a modern person is just acting like their in a Christmas Charol remake or something.

[@AnonOmous-lj1qn]

Everytime someone uses this 18th century type of phrasing that nobody in the modern world uses except occasionally for youtube comments I imagine a modern person is just acting like their in a Christmas Charol remake or something. Full on fake British accent and everything.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

@@AnonOmous-lj1qn And a tip of the cap to you as well, good laddie!

[@AnonOmous-lj1qn]

@@AndJusticeForMe You must be from Idaho.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

@@AnonOmous-lj1qn How did you know? You’re good.

[@Dylan_Devine]

It seems all the objections people have to an infinite Heaven is not being able to comprehend in human terms how it can he infinitely good. If the God of the Bible existed, who was infinitely good and infinitely beautiful, it would make sense that it would be impossible for a human with limited knowledge and limited human experiences to comprehend it.

[@Seanph25]

And that’s literally what the Bible says already

[@andrewferg8737]

Unnecessary suffering is the defining characteristic of that privation we call evil. Were it not pointless, cruel, merciless, and irrational we would not call it evil --- we would call it work. The temporal and transient world in which we live is captivated by evil. Every violation of conscience ratifies that captivity. "'Men, you should have taken my advice not to sail from Crete; then you would have spared yourselves this damage and loss. But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed" (Acts 27)

[@Swish82]

If God has an infinite mind, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there would always be something new to learn verses a finite mind?

[@snokehusk223]

he already know everything, omniscient

[@misterkittyandfriends1441]

Atheists are constantly fascinated by science and the way the universe operates, but somehow engaging with the all powerful creator doesn't seem interesting. Imagine if you got to spend time with the greatest creators of all time, given the ability to create endlessly and experience that creation, plus time exploring the infinite power of the source of all creation in love. I dunno that sounds pretty great.

[@davidniedjaco9869]

I think when Trent talked about having brief moments of bliss here on earth, I feel like most of the time we didn't think of them as bliss or that was a blissful moment at the time..it's not until we look back at the event from future, and it's already gone, do we realize that it was a blissful moment..by then it's gone, and all we have are the memories..memories are great with the nastalgia and everything, but I feel like that it's like this most of the time..or maybe we look back at things with rose-colored glasses and, as such, that's the blissful event, the looking back with with colored lenses, in nastalgia..or maybe it's a combination of both..I'm not sure..the only thing I know is it's all a part of life.

[@SurrenderNovena]

53:47 - Excellent point by Trent: "The only reason people choose evil in this life is because they either fail to understand the good or they lack a willingness to seek after it but if our wills and rationality are perfect then evil is not a possibility" Thus in Heaven we DO have free will to choose BUT we are not free to do or desire any evil.

[@rodbarrett1581]

Define good? What God of the Bible thinks is good is the contrary to a lot of us. Creating humans and burning them in torment forever is Good to God. Destroying all life including the innocent because he angers with us is good to him. See where I'm going with this?

[@Skylight-nn9cl]

My understanding of it is that people choose evil not because they actually love evil, but because they desire good feelings and pleasure over bad feelings and displeasure/suffering. Unfortunately, this god has set up the "Fallen Nature" he cursed us with to reward us with pleasure when we do wrong. This is also why it is hard for people to break away from sin. The wellbeing from pleasure is just that strong. It is a drug.

[@SurrenderNovena]

​@@rodbarrett1581 Yes, I do, Rod, and honestly I don't think that anything I say could make anything better for you because it's not logic or reason that you need but something much deeper - an undeniable experience of God's love for you personally.

[@SurrenderNovena]

@@Skylight-nn9cl Skylight, yes, people choose evil because there is some good in it, or they think there is. It can be pleasure, it can be power, it can be money or vengeance. In the short run, there is pleasure: eating a huge cake, drinking 12 beers, smoking, vaping... Giving someone a piece of one's mind... In the moment it feels good, there is pleasure but in the long run it harms us. It is certainly very hard to break from sin of any kind but it is not impossible. And it is worth it, because the relief and freedom that come from conquering one's lower nature and vices, of having control over one's actions and reactions is wonderful indeed!

[@Skylight-nn9cl]

@@SurrenderNovena Well, the more I learn about what's stated in the bible, the more I'm convinced that we have no control, no way within ourselves to conquer. It is all given by this god. That's what the Bible says multiple times throughout. Therefore, I can only wait for this god to fill me with his grace and power to overcome, but no matter how many times I've humbly asked, to the point of crying in pain due to my pleasure with sin, this god doesn't answer (with anything good anyway). What mostly ends up happening is that I get filled with desires and good feelings toward sinful things again. Now an expected response to me would be "that's just satan and the demons trying to throw you off track, to cause you to lose trust in god". But hold on, why instead of given me new desires to love god and love righteousness, do I keep getting sinful desires instead? Why are the demons getting power over me every single time, while this god stays silent in my suffering? I literally ask him for the things he says to ask for, I literally admit my fallen state and that I am the powerless one and he is the almighty that saves, so, where is he? Where is his overflowing mercy and love for this sinner, for 16 years of me doing this? Why does this loving god act in a way that causes me to believe instead that he hates me, and that I am one of the pieces of clay that he has fashioned for dishonorable use?

[@valeriesylvain950]

I would think that the question isn’t if WE will be bored because we are not all knowing and powerful etc., so we will experience infinite growth. The question for me would be how is God not bored, since He knows everything already and will not grow and change. I think the answer is Love. When we are actively loving, we cannot be bored.

[@Epiousios18]

I can understand and even empathize with thinking there are "problems" with the idea of heaven, but at the same time I realize that it has more to do with limitations on my imagination rather than what the reality would be. I think Nicholas of Cusa in his "Vision of God" clarifies this idea beautifully. He discusses how God (and as a consequence heaven) can only be the end of human desire because he/it is perfectly "intelligible without being able to be fully understood." "The intelligible which it knoweth doth not sate it, nor the intelligible whereof it is utterly ignorant, but only the intelligible which it knoweth to be so intelligible that it can never be fully understood - 'tis this alone can sate it."

[@adamcosper3308]

What a beautiful way of claiming to know something while acknowledging that you are incapable of knowing it. Weird.

[@Epiousios18]

@@adamcosper3308 The whole book is like that. Fascinating and beautiful.

[@ravwoofles3858]

​@@Epiousios18Okay, sure, it's great you can admit that there's things you don't understand and that there'll be things you may never understand. However, that doesn't apply to a god that; at least for how most Christians view him, is capable of everything and anything. For them that would be a crappy excuse that boils down to, they're limited when it's convenient, but not when it's beneficial to them. Side note: applying that to yourself is also problematic if you then use that as an excuse to not search for answers, and to not help yourself; I'm not saying that's the case for you specifically, just that it is something to consider. When the endgame is to be close to God in heaven, to me it's a pretty big red flag when "you're just not able to understand the contract." Why not, when an all powerful God could just have made it so we did understand what was waiting for us? Imagine if someone told you there's a house you're going to get that's exactly what you want and need, however you can't see or understand what that house is going to look like or even be in general until after you accept to give everything to the all knowing, all loving, all powerful land lord that's graciously offered the house. Would you believe that person because it says exactly that in all the documents they're asking you to sign, though keep in mind that you can't completely understand it all because "it's just that great." Then you ask all the other people who work for that amazing land lord about them and the house, and they're all answering differently based on the same set of papers. None of that sets off alarm bells?

[@Epiousios18]

@@ravwoofles3858 Zero alarm bells, you just seem to be misunderstanding the point that is being made (and I am not saying that in a negative way or as a "gotcha"). The point is that our human minds are only satisfied with things that are "intelligible without being fully understood." Once things are "fully understood" by people they inevitably find them boring, but if they are too complex to be intelligible they don't interest us either. For instance, it isn't an "excuse not to search for answers" in the slightest. The consequence would be a never ending "search" for answers, finding those answers that make sense and can be understood, and then the realization of more questions and a new search beginning at the end of the old one. As for your "house" example: it isn't that you "can't see or understand what the house is going to look like" it's that you simply don't know the entirety of the layout by heart before you have ever even lived in it. It is safe to say, however, it will be something that you love based off of what you already know to be "true" and "good," and I am sure you can think of certain details of how it will be based on that. Feelings of discovery and wonder are often the most cherished part of new experiences, the beauty of the "intelligible but not fully understood" idea is that it would ensure that these feelings could occur in perpetuity. (the Incompleteness Theorem helps to demonstrate and explain the reality of this idea as well). This "questing" and discovery is a fundamental aspect of what humans love to do, there is no doubt about that, maybe that isn't the "entire plan" but we are limited in out ability to know so I prefer to stick with how "human minds" work.

[@ravwoofles3858]

@@Epiousios18 Um, no? My argument wasn't about the whole boredom and what heaven actually is debockle. I usually don't make arguments about what god and heaven are because they're unfalsifiable beyond what little and inconsistent information; in this case, the Bible gives, and are based on highly individualistic and romanticized hypotheticals. The whole house analogy is about the claims of what is required and what is given in exchange for Christian salvation; something that can be at least somewhat measured. The "house" isn't free; despite being advertised as such by some, you are giving a large part of what little you demonstrably have in order to obtain a theoretical utopia; even if we go with a sector of Christianity that believes that all you have to do is believe in Jesus, and that he was the son of god, and that he rose from the dead, that's still something you have to do (which I don't, due to the limited and often faulty evidence there is I cannot bring myself to believe more than that maybe there was a guy named Yesua, who gained a cult following, and became more of a mythical figure over time). How easy would it have been for your god to simply describe heaven in the Bible like you just did, so that way all you have to do for arguments is point to a passage and say that's what you're getting out of this deal. Instead you had to go to many different sources, see which one aligned with what little you had to work with and what you desired. A source that not only fails to be backed by god's mouth, but also one that; let's admit, most everyday people are not going to find, and so at least a few won't accept to Christianity simply because the holy book doesn't give a good enough idea; at least for their standards, of what they'll be receiving. That's the point, it's needlessly complicated for a being that supposedly WANTS everyone to be saved and worship him. That's why it's such a problem that there are and have been so many variations of Christianity, and in such a way that you cannot pass the buck solely on the faults of people.