Does the world need Critical Role's Daggerheart?

[@Sol_Arkreite.mp3]

All I can really say is. . . playtest it. There were many mechanics that I didn't understand the genius of until I saw them in action in front of me.

[@Runsten_]

This was my sentiment, as well, from the video. Like the turnless initiative makes so much sense once you play it. And not only the combat, but the transition to battle from the non-combat situation. And also realizing how hope is a currency that flows and you constantly spend it and earn it. Damage thresholds only needing comparison instead of substraction math with traditional hit points. Etc.

[@chakravant]

@@Runsten_ I don't think so. Turnless initiative was in a few games before and in most cases (including this one) it makes things only more complicated, not easier and more fun.

[@mrcorbak6793]

I have not been able to play yet. Can you give a few examples ?

[@junkred9466]

I’m on a Westmarch server for Daggerheart, and so far, me and everybody I asked on the server love the system. I don’t have that much experience in ttrpg, I played a bit of D&D, Cthulhu, some indie french and swiss games, GMed for Cyberpunk Red, Pirate Borg and Genesys, and I gotta say, so far Daggerheart has been my absolute favorite experience. Hopefully the final release will be even better

[@junkred9466]

I will add that I’m not a particular CR fan, I like their content and vibe but I might have watched like a total of five episodes of their campaigns, so it is not a CR-biased opinion (didn’t even fully watched their Daggerheart one shot) I was actually looking for a Fantasy RPG setting, D&D couldn’t fill the spot for several reasons. Daggerheart, so far, brings me litteraly everything that D&D couldn’t, in the Character customization options, freedom within the gameplay, etc. Love the absence of initiative, love how the combats system works. And not gonna lie, Daggerheart is WAY easier than D&D to understand, I don’t understand people saying the opposite xD It’s actually the system I’ve had the easiest time to read through and understand right away, probably thank’s to the cards and layout. Love the system of Threshold as well, preventing players from being One-Shot (yeah I’ve had bad experiences as a player)

[@talscorner3696]

@@junkred9466 A Daggerheart westmarch server, you say? Is it possible for randos interested in the game to join?

[@melinnamba]

I actually do think Daggerheart is specifically NOT trying to be a D&D replacement/clone. What it is trying to be is a system that is tailor made for the Critical Role play style. And I think it already does a great job at it. It cuts out all the parts that get in the way and adds some mechanics that make it much easier especially for new players to get into the narrative, immersive character role play. Sure some things are still quite clunky, because it's still in playtests. Particularly the cards need some attention. Sofar they are just nice and it feels really wierd that's the deck building mechanic only kicks in after you are halfway through leveling. But I think it has great potential and it does fill a niche between chruncy rules heavy and narrative rules lite systems. (Btw, I think it is hilarious that they call it a rules lite system, when it's at best in middle field.) I for one am itching to play a session of Daggerheart, when you couldn't get me to play DnD if you held a gun to my head. I don't think it's going to become my favorite system - I am to much of a narrative player for that - but I do think I will actually enjoy a session every few months or so. And to answer the question of whether the world NEEDS Daggerheart: Well, no, of course not. But for that matter the world wouldn't have needed any other ttrpg either. I played "ttrpgs" with my sister long before I knew whar ttrpgs were. We made character sheets and did collaborative story telling and role played our characters, riding dragons and fighting bad guys. It's really more of a question of whether people WANT Daggerheart or not. And the answer to that is a pretty clear "Yes". Even if it was only the Critical Role cast who wanted it, I think that's enough of a reason for Daggerheart to exist. Or maybe the question should be WHO needs Daggerheart?

[@ExtremisGames]

I would say the size of the rule book is a result of how much they included as opposed to how dense the rules themselves are, there are item tables, all the class details that is repeated from the character sheets, location descriptions, adversaries and more My whole table found this rule set incredibly easy to settle into having known DnD and felt like it was playing a frictionless version of DnD where the rules just don’t get in the way

[@MagiofAsura]

This. Over 266 pages is just character creation, lore, general tips, etc. Even the quick start adv is 39 pages but minus the pregens, tips, and standees, is just 9 pages for the actual adventure.

[@schemage2210]

"a frictionless version of DnD where the rules just don’t get in the way" This is a bold claim and quite frankly a little disturbing. D&D has a quickstart manual too which is only 40 something pages because when you boil it down the core loop of D&D is incredible simple. Roll a D20 + attribute modifier + other bonus in order to roll at or above a certain value. The complications come from edge cases like vehicles, chase scenes, rules interactions, crafting mechanics, the fact that encounter building never worked. etc. I would be curious to know if your experiences of Daggerheart have actually stress tested those some elements (listed above) that we struggle with, with D&D 5e!

[@anyoneatall3488]

​@schemage2210 there aren't crafting mechanics tho

[@schemage2210]

@@anyoneatall3488 That was my entire point. Of all the things I have problems with in 5e, it isn't the stuff explicitly mentioned in the rulebooks. I don't have issues with subclasses (well with a couple exceptions) or how spells work. What creates "friction" for me in 5e is everything not in it like crafting rules, like how to run a chase scene or skill challenge, or actually creating monsters, magic items, and combat encounters. And before you try to argue the point, what is written about creating monsters, magic items, spells or encounters is either entirely broken (and has been since day one of 5e) or a paragraph that says, "make it up and use your best judgement". AKA "here is a pile of friction that we aren't going to help you with".

[@asmith6006]

I understand the need to make a video on the topic du jour, but so many other channels did their reviews after running at least a one-shot. Why did you choose to review it on a brief read-through of the PDF? If your basic thought is I don't care enough about this review to try the product, why review it at all? Half of your review is "we heard people say" which is really disappointing from a channel that I trusted.

[@junkred9466]

Right? I support this comment and hope they’ll give a try to daggerheart cause so far their opinion is not worth much. I expected more from them

[@steveholmes11]

@@junkred9466 The "You didn't eat the whole plate of dog****" fallacy.

[@junkred9466]

@@steveholmes11 they literally just looked at the plate without touching it bro

[@VictorDiGiovanni]

"Wow... looks like Daggerheart reaction videos are trending... let's get one out." "But we haven't played it." "Does the world need Dicebreaker's Daggerheart reaction?"

[@sarahspence5361]

This was exactly my thoughts on this review. I ran the quickstart adventure the weekend after release, without getting a chance to read the full rulebook first (4 year 5e campaign ending the same week took precedence). The quickstart is literally designed for the GM to read the rules of how to run the game while players read what their characters do. It has read-aloud text instructing the players how to play the game! You can tell they really wanted to make sure people could play without needing to spend a lot of prep time in advance. And a miracle in the fantasy RPG space - once we started playing we finished in 3 hours (which is how long it said it would take). All that to say, it feels like there's no excuse for a tabletop gaming channel to have not even played the quickstart before putting out a review. It would have taken 3 hours to give it a chance before casting judgment.

[@pixelated_cow]

Does the world need a video of people pontificating on the merits of a game they haven't played?

[@brentage5000]

14:08 they've literally called it an open beta at every turn and asked for feedback.

[@schemage2210]

In business there is a concept called a "Minimum Viable Product". The most basic, working version of your product that you can THEN put out for beta testing to see where the bugs are and what people think. The feedback in this video is that, Daggerheart beta test, ISN'T a viable product if for no other reason that it doesn't actually distinguish a niche of it's own or explain why it goes against the grain of every other TTRPG out there.

[@scottmcfarlane7524]

@@schemage2210 That business practice is about making money all the way thou the product line. Beta's are a normal business practice in gaming, board or Video.. It's cute u understand business terms but most don't apply in a small market with a niche audience.

[@schemage2210]

@@scottmcfarlane7524Except I am sure that Critical Role has already made a truck ton of money from streaming the initial sessions of Daggerheart. 662k viewers on the oneshot has got to be good for the bottomline, right? And if they thought the reception was going to be remotely as positive, they ought to have been invested in getting their daggerheart rules in a better state BEFORE dropping the beta test. Beta Tests are normal, and I am not saying that it was wrong to put one out, but if people are asking "why does this product exist"? Or "why is this trying to be different just to be different but also do all the same things as that other game"? I'd suggest that they weren't ready for beta testing. And it's really cute that you're patronising and think that terminology don't apply here but don't let your arrogance get away of seeing the mistakes made here.

[@victorreoli]

And it's wrong too, A product is a product, and an MVP is an MVP (minimum viable product) whether it distinguishes a niche or not. Whether it manages to have a place in the market or not is irrelevant to a product being in its MVP state as long as it's "Viable" To be used for its intended purpose and get feedback from (which Daggerheart clearly is, considering a lot of people had "played" a complete game session using it). What the guy above is talking about with distinguishing a niche or explaining why it "goes against the grain" of other TTRPG out there falls under the category of the product's "Unique Value Proposition" Or UVP.

[@schemage2210]

@@victorreoliAnd this is where I disagree with both you and @scottmcfarlane7524 . I don't at all believe that Daggerheart in its current state has reached a point of being a minimally viable product. Nor do Dicebreakers believe as much either. And it certainly is clear that Daggerheart hasn't achieved a UVP either. You see, Critical Role are spending ungodly amounts of money developing this game, and yet even now as they push it out for "beta" testing, people can't be convinced of even the simplest facets of this system. Not just about how it is unique, but how it's mechanics justify themselves and will work in practice. And before some smartass claims otherwise, it isn't just me saying this but rather youtube channels like Dicebreakers too. So no, "a product isn't just a product", that attitude leads to the commercial flop of products followed swiftly by said products being forgotten about for all time. Critical Role can do better, and certainly needs to do better unless their only objective is to waste money. And our time. EDIT: And just as a reminder, Critical Role have already broadcasted 2 live streams with more then a million viewers across said videos. As in, they are already racking in advertising bucks from Daggerheart etc. So they ought to have been invested in getting their ruleset in a better state before doing showing it off to the world and their adoring fans.

[@tosteson1]

I've run newbies through 5e and Daggerheart for 3 shots. Daggerheart is way easier. Characters feel so robust out of the gate. The characters have built in relationships. Tag team is awesome.

[@andrewshandle]

This is a weird video. Imagine having a friend who is the lead designer for a game and instead of taking the time to read the new game you instead make a video saying it shouldn't exist. Is it for clicks? Because I can't imagine why you thought this video made sense otherwise. I'm not even saying it's a good game, because while it has some interesting things about it, it's got some flaws that need addressing, and quite frankly I can see why some people just will never get on board with it...but still, this is like writing a movie review based on the trailer.

[@richardbrown3055]

Especially making that video without taking the time to actually read through the new game, which a lot of what they say tells me neither bothered to do, or even play through the QuickStart adventure included.

[@EunoiaRPG]

I've been on a weird rollercoaster with this playtest. I have read the whole document, created a number of different characters, explained the basic concepts to the group I play with regularly and watched dozens of videos of creators praising, critiquing or otherwise discussing their first impressions with it. One thing that I don't see people talking about, however, is that this game has a subtle way of creating new game masters and broadening the skillset of those who run the system for the first time. I have seen the comments of 'I am the GM I don't need the rules to say how I can intervene or make complications, I already have the power to do this.' Yes but, this is a muscle that you learn to flex over time as a GM. Codifying the tasks that a more experienced DM may do on a whim helps to build a mindset for it they can take to any other game in the future. And by taking some of the PbtA-esque flavour of having the players contribute to the scene, describe what they see, and then the GM responding to this, you're subtly asking the players to take a turn in the GM seat for a short while, thus planting the seeds for those players to maybe think about running for themselves. In the 5e landscape the percentage of players to DM's is staggering, so I don't know if this was intentional design but it's a theory that's come to me the more I read and watch.

[@EunoiaRPG]

This is from the context that a large percentage of people trying this game will only have tried 5e before, or have critical role be their only exposure to the hobby before this. The concepts in the playtest for the most part aren't brand new, but there's enough similarities to 5e to help bridge the gap for the converts.

[@RenegadeRolls]

As a playtest and a first look, I think Daggerheart does a lot of things right. I like the ways that the core combat gameplay feels suitably different from DnD while still keeping enough familiar elements. I've run a couple of games with it, and the tables have felt much more energetic in combat with people bursting with ideas of cool stuff they can do and planning ridiculous tag-teams, rather than following the rigid initiative order of DnD. Overall, I think it will do well organically over time if people are having more fun playing it over DnD, and if I was Darrington Press, I'd be coming up with a million different expansion kits to sell to players that would mean that you can play as a mouse, or a detective, or a mouse detective (called Basil of course). The core game is genre-agnostic, and doesn't have the baggage of DnD, so a Pathfinder/Starfinder type transition would be totally possible!

[@MesserBen]

It feels like an underbaked cake. The potential is there, but it definitely needs more time in the oven. To make it feel unique, maybe lean hard into the hope/fear mechanic? Lots of ways to spend hope for the pcs, lots of ways to use fear for the dm. And ditch the d20 for attack roles. It feels like they could do the math for how to use 2d12 and so they punted back to d20.

[@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug]

maybe you can provide this feedback to the play test instead of the comments section of people who don’t give a shit

[@zreyon]

Yeah, the asymmetry of it, where the DJ rolls a different die to hit also bothered me. I think it makes some sense, given it's very player-focused, and the DJ shouldn't generate hope and fear in that sense, but at that point, I'd consider making it player-facing and have the players roll to defend themselves instead of the DJ rolling to hit. But then again, that would present a problem with the hope-fear resource management, since now there'd be twice the amount. It'd be a complex thing to balance, so I don't know whether they'll even consider it

[@haravikk]

@@zreyon They could do it using a single player roll; roll well and you hit the enemy, roll poorly and the DM can spend Fear to hit automatically (minus any abilities and such you can apply)? Feels like there's a way to do it without extra rolling, and while I know it can be fun to roll dice, when I'm DMing I usually try to roll as little as possible for speed so a system where the DM is just causing things to happen could make more sense.

[@lawrl777]

yeah d20 vs Evasion really sticks out, just have the players roll 2d12 to dodge attacks

[@abendspiele]

What is it about 'open beta' that people don't seem to undestand? 😭

[@bananafishbones]

Played it with my group yesterday. It’s a blast. Nice system. Leans towards narrative play but good bones for grid battle map play too. I had my reservations too.

[@Dschonathan]

I think first and foremost Daggerheart serves as a system in full control of Critical Role so that no other company has the ability to randomly fuck everything over. Switching to some other system, even if it might be a better game, wouldn't solve that issue.

[@russellharrell2747]

D&D wasn’t even the system they started with. CR is so big now that they really had no choice to develop their own game and close their business model in this era of totally unrestrained corporate stupidity

[@steveholmes11]

@@russellharrell2747 Or, you know, they could just keep playing 5e and refuse to embrace additional changes.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@steveholmes11 I’m sure the OGL scandal scared them a bit, seeing that Hasbro has proved that they will kill the golden goose just to make a snack.

[@Fafhrd42]

​@@steveholmes11it's not just about what system and ruleset they're playing. They make a fair amount of money on the sourcebooks for the Exandria setting, and WotC demonstrating that they might randomly change the rules under which they're allowed to publish and sell those books is a level of uncertainty that they don't really want to operate under as the overall Critical Role company grows.

[@schemage2210]

I do beg to differ, Paizo has a great reputation and has been doing great things with Pathfinder 2e, and considering that CR started out with Pathfinder 1e, the extra crunch shouldn't be that much of a bother.

[@alexsherry1238]

Even If you decided not to run a game, which would be weird given the channel you are, with your team's knowledge base it'd take someone like.... 2 hours total to read the whole thing and theorycraft and think on it. So, just skimming the rules and using hearsay is very disappointing. Ive used you guys and trusted you for other game reviews and teaches. But, apparently you don't feel like you need to try anymore.

[@kmaguire7161]

This is a wild video. I've seen a lot of constructive critiques of Daggerheart. Most fairly positive, some giving good feedback on things that could be better. This seemed extremely lazy and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we just couldn't be arsed. Very strange and the one guy said he was friends with the creator? Yikes!

[@alexsherry1238]

​@@kmaguire7161 hey, buddy! You made a game, I'm gonna talk about it on my channel. Not reading it tho. Neither you nor our viewers are worth that.

[@JSandman7]

​@@kmaguire7161 Also it seems like an odd video because like who asks that question about a new system? Is it just because it is coming Critical Role? I've never seen a video ask if we need another ttrpg before

[@alexsherry1238]

​@@JSandman7 and they keep calling it "DnD but" and it's like...... no? It can be it's own thing? You don't call all science fiction "Frankenstein but" or ask do we need movies or shows or video games or board games. So why the hate boner for Daggerheart for daring to exist?

[@junkred9466]

@@alexsherry1238I wish they could read those comments but they probably give even less shit about them than about Daggerheart..

[@schemage2210]

I do appreciate that they dropped the entire system in the first beta test compared to D&D 5e 2024. For me the real question becomes which is the best option D&D 5e 2024 (which is a trainwreck in the making) or Daggerheart?

[@nickdejager8873]

The cards do something. The cards are you deck, and you choose your hand to play. More or less. If you have more than five cards, you can only use five at a time. You can swap them as you want during a short rest. But other times, it is a cost to swap them. Also, the rule book isn't that huge. It's the PHB, the DMG, and part of the MM, all in one. as well as samples of the adventure. Player only need the first 200 or so pages.

[@cephyn11]

I feel like you never actually asked the question - What was the purpose for this design decision? That would get you closer to the answers you need.

[@MemphiStig]

I hope you guys come back soon, and I hope you take time to play this game for yourselves, especially maybe with an actual play. I think it will really shine once you get into it, or at least it will make a lot more sense when it's in motion.

[@bastionsea2829]

One thing to point out, when you mention D&D, you're specifically talking about 5th edition. I used to DM 3rd edition and as I read the rules of 5th, I find that,at best, things are the same as before, most things are MORE difficult to understand now

[@MrGibsonian]

Next video. Why Wheels is wrong about Elves. It's 2hrs of Maddie talking at him.

[@SkullDixon]

IDk about "Do we need this" is something we should really care to ask about unless it's just another D&D retro-clone or D&D indie game ( a game that is using the D&D rules but is made by someone other than Wotc). Realistically, I think its great when designers create a new game system that comes up with new approaches or ways to play - especially if those mechanics help sell the themes and setting of the game.

[@willschoonover8654]

I still feel this way about Candela Obscura, but I like what's going on with DaggerHeart. My RPG group tried it, and we liked a lot of what it has going on. I'm looking forward to seeing the full release, and I hope they don't change much of the core concepts.

[@emilywilliams2727]

Oof I saw the title and knew immediately how the comments would go

[@haravikk]

It does have some interesting ideas, but my concern is that it's still pretty complicated; like I get why they're doing the damage thresholds to hit-points thing but that feels like an extra step that shouldn't be needed, and the constant churn of fear and hope seems like it could get annoying. I need to find the time to actually properly play it though, as I quite like how simple the character creation is, and the cards seem handled quite well.

[@terryray6037]

Anything new benefits the hobby. The problem is when only a few games exist.who cares if you like it. Play something else. BUT when nothing else exists you don’t have a choice.

[@zhivik]

The thing is, if we always apply the criterion “but there is already a game that covers that theme/niche”, it would mean that any new fantasy RPG is needed, given that we already have D&D, Pathfinder, and the like. I am a little surprised that Dicebreaker is asking that exact question. I mean, you want there to be a choice of something besides D&D, don't you? Why not just wait and see what Daggerheart will be in its finished state? If it is not good enough, no one will remember it a few months after it is published. If it proves good enough, people will play it. Moreover, why does it always need to be a zero-sum game? Can't other fantasy games coexist along with D&D? Given the behemoth that D&D is, it is a small miracle that there are still independent RPG designers that are trying to do something in the fantasy RPG genre.

[@glenfairen2996]

Wheels mentioned that he wasn’t a big D&D fan so I was curious about what systems you do like? Always curious what people are into 😊. And you Madie?

[@MagiofAsura]

Lol this video feels unnecessary if you arent going to take the time and read the damn system.

[@junkred9466]

True that

[@randallfarley76]

That was my thought. It like having a meeting when a email would do

[@mattball8622]

The irony of having a waffly video that adds nothing to the conversation with the title 'do we need this' is extremely funny to me.

[@DaveScurlock]

I think the point was to explain why they’re struggling to engage with the system, which seems pretty legit

[@junkred9466]

@@DaveScurlock yes but that’s extremely personal and doesn’t not represent the game. A review can be subjective.. but they can’t review something they haven’t tried. You can’t just say « the world probably doesn’t need this cause we weren’t in the mood to read it »

[@AndrewMcColl]

I'm never one to say 'no' to more new games, but I do wonder how many people have asked unironically if they're doing a "5E version" of the game, like people do with every new RPG that hits the market.

[@snoophogg85]

Oh my god can you imagine 😂

[@talahar123]

What I really like is the experiences (bad name, because in the language of TTRPGs it means something already established, which causes all the confusion) but it flavours your character oh so delightfully: i've heard of a character with the experiences of "eff around" and "find out" and that is already amazing. and being able to just put down an experience like "what the hell are they doing with that whip?" is already an interesting and flavourful proposition for where that character is going. they need to change the name, and explain the whole rule better, but i love it and want to explore it more. :D

[@puppaz8210]

Next week will there be another sponsored vid about why we need another CCG?

[@raltaeus]

I’m pretty sure daggerheart’s intended audience consists of fans of d&d that want a more narrative experience, and not for general tabletop fans. Because, to be completely fair; you’re right, why play daggerheart if you have so many other ones as a tabletop fan? that note aside i do genuinely feel like this is a topic that didn’t even need to be covered as there was really nothing of value to say about the actual game save for, “other tabletop games are better” and unfortunately that’s not a new or original take. It reads as bad journalism and i’m a bit sad to see it from you guys.

[@OsamaZahid308]

It's ok. No wories if we don't have time to play or even properly read it. W'll still ride the hype train and release a video to grab some of that cash. Why not? The world definitely needs this video.

[@Caitlin_TheGreat]

Did we need this video? I'm not a bit stan of CR. Not even a regular fan, really. But for TTRPGs in general... It sounds perfectly fine as a beta still very much in development for it to be finding its footing. And it sounds like you _do_ grasp the need for it: an alternative to D&D. As such, everything about D&D is on the table to be re-imagined, right? This is actually a problem I have with the WotC/Hasbro owned IP of D&D. When it's not being wrung out for profitability, they are too afraid to really do anything _new_ with it. It stays mostly the same exact game, so is there really a need for the new editions beyond being an excuse to get players to buy 3+ new books when they move on to the new edition? I think you guys should have held this in a bit longer until you could be more firm with your critiques. And I think that being friends with one of the developers still is very important. If this was not made by someone you know, would you have felt the same need to talk about it well before it's nearing a finalized state? Are you being more judgmental because of the relationship? These biases aren't always positive. ==-==-==-==-==-==-== Meanwhile, it _is_ fair to ask about whether it's really necessary to have another D&D-but kind of game. And again it would be best to wait for the judgement call on this until it's at least really close to done. Because sometimes games that start as this, turn into something a bit different.

[@jimjones7980]

Dicebreaker team... please, please, please take a look at Swords of the Serpentine. I would love to see your thoughts after playing it.

[@chaplinkyle1]

i feel like for the most part the people who enjoy daggerheart are 5e only players, there are so many other systems that streamline the same thing daggerheart has done most of its best ideas are ones that are the standard for character creation across the board for other games

[@tubebobwil]

A lot of people say the action/initiative in play in Daggerheart or where the differences shine.

[@Sub-zp2gs]

Here's our review" we didn't really look at it" but here is our opinion

[@emmajk7433]

Hello! I really like this game, especially for character creation and teamwork, but want to thank you for sharing!

[@Stephen-Fox]

I think there's another hurdle that the amount of companies coming out with D&D successors in response to the OGL stuff last year are going to have to overcome - Modern D&D For People Who Don't Want To Play D&D (For Whatever Reason) already exists - It's called Pathfinder. It's been called Pathfinder since 2009, and while it was originally pretty much D&D3.75, PF2e does some really interesting stuff with its combat system. And while it's not as big as D&D, it's not really a slouch either - Seemingly being comfortably among that second tier of game in terms of market success alongside stuff like CoC. Fantasy RPGs With Crunchy Combat is a saturated market for reasons other than the size of D&D, and I'm worried about how many of these Not D&D games are going to wind up being Fantasy Heartbreakers (while hoping that this is going to help shift the market a bit because I don't think it's healthy for the hobby for one game to be as big compared to everything else as D&D is) due to that. (I don't gravitate towards generic - or as per modern D&D, Pathfinder, and from the looks of it Daggerheart, 'kitchen sink' fantasy so this game was never going to excite me, I'm 100% not the target audience for it)

[@delongjohnsilver7235]

I’m not in this region of ttrpgs, so I get Obscura and Daggerheart mixed up a lot. I believed it had already come out, but then I heard word about the beta. From what I’ve seen, hope can have, like any meta currency in ttrpgs, the potion effect where players will hoard them instead of sending them and cause their own analysis paralysis. This’ a pulpy game, but a lot of people are coming at it like a soft dungeon crawler mindset.

[@timidwolf]

D&D is the proverbial giant with other TTRPGs standing on its shoulders, but is not among the best. It has a very convoluted and messy system that likely turns away more players than it ultimately brings in (I certainly wouldn't have got into RPGs if it was my first one). A bigger push from other, more beginner friendly systems would build the community so much more. Daggerheart has the potential to manage that push, and if the start-up is easier than D&D (not a high bar to clear) it should do well.

[@StarlightCrown]

tldr: we didn't really read the book or play it but here's our opinion on it

[@chrisderhodes7629]

Daggerheart feels like a game in alpha/beta which is fine. I guess I’m not really sure who the target audience is for this system though. I guess it’s 5e players that are fans of critical role, but I’m skeptical that they’ll actually want to make the switch to a system that feels a bit less intuitive to them.

[@hatchlingsgames]

I feel you’re spot on about them trying to simultaneously replicate and separate themselves from DnD. Unless you fully commit to the feel of a game, it might inevitably feel saturated.

[@talscorner3696]

Do we need it as "The industry will die if this project doesn't succeed"? Probably not. Does it look like a fun game? Hell yeah!

[@qarsiseer]

I got into the closed beta, and yeah, I had a similar impression. I liked the 2d12 hope/fear system a lot, and I liked their cards for abilities and choices. But I open the playtest and you’re rolling a bunch of dice for damage, you’re rolling a bunch of dice for armor and ticking boxes, and there’s just so much unnecessary cruft. Spenser wants a rules light game and I agree! He needs to cut this game in half then half again and make it rules light.

[@renzopinasco2206]

Also, Dnd have suffered lots of modifications since its birth. Somethings are still there but the mechanics have changed quite a bit, some for the better, other things for the worse. Having played dnd since the basic set, through 1e,2e, a bit of 3.5 and 5e i can say it is now much more fastpaced but have lost the feeling of realism and oif being you the one who is immersed in that fantastic world. Now candela obscura (for us spanish native speakers sounds funny) would be the equivalent of Chtulhu and Daggerheart Dnd i assume

[@synns6898]

For me personally, since playing Dragonbane I don’t need another fantasy rpg and Vaesen scratches that itch for something abit different

[@connors7078]

I get the feeling you guys don't really know enough about Daggerheart to be having this conversation yet? 🤷‍♂

[@ItsYoji]

"Does the world need this video?" would be the title of this comment. I think it would have done the discussion well if you had tried out the system beforehand. Now it relies way too much on hearsay, speculation and didn't really add any value for me personally.

[@HarmonyProcyonLotor]

I understand why Critical Role would want a “replacement” for D&D that they own, and I understand why they would make this and release it. Like, wanting to be free of association with WotC is understandable right now. Wanting control over the IP is understandable. And if it goes over well, and the transition on their show is seamless enough, it’ll probably sell well with Critical Role fans and carve out its market niche well enough. But like, for the rest of us, we already kinda have a lot of options for this kind of thing. Do I need to play the Critical Role fantasy RPG when we already have Pathfinder or OSR games or any number of fantasy RPG’s in different systems? I guess if this game ends up feeling particularly good to play, sure. At the end of the day, though, I’m happy to see people playing games other than D&D. I’m never going to say “it’s bad that this game is being made” or anything, but I really am not sure I’m going to be interested in this one yet. I hope it’s amazing, I hope people love it, I hope I love it. But I’m tempering my expectations.

[@andrewshandle]

DH, whether good or bad, is way different than PF, OSR or 5E though. There are a few more games coming soon like Kobold's one or DC20 which are _much_ more similar to 5E, and in those cases maybe there's an argument, but at least DH is different enough mechanics wise that I can see it existing in parallel and serving a segment of the D&D player base that wants a more narrative game with free flowing combat. And that's before the IP issues, and honestly none of us know that Hasbro might do a year from now.

[@liampezzano]

The dirty secret of D&D is that it only survived so long because NOBODY PLAYS IT. There is not a single game out there that actually uses the Rules As Written. The rules as written, are clunky and inaccessible. I think the only places where Daggerheart trips is where it doesn't embrace that. Spell Slots are fucked. Hope is cheap. Excellent. Rules for Spells are hard to track. You play with a hand of cards. Fantastic. Tracking a gold economy is nonsense. Everything is one of three prices now. D&D has too many economies going, and the more you cut away the better the game gets. I think if they simplified the Health/Damage calculating, and they lean into the Deck Building of a character class, then this is just D&D but better.

[@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug]

maybe in your experience but i think most people use the majority of rules as written. framing that as "nobody really plays it" is silly

[@liampezzano]

@@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug ask your DM, this shit is held together with rubber bands and paper clips

[@sergiocolautti]

D&D did try to change it back in 4E. They converted everything into powers at-will, encounter and day. Then released card decks based on your class. It was a very crunchy version, with some hits and misses. I miss the Warlord!

[@musstakrakish]

Do we need you? Do we need this channel?

[@marks6928]

Turns out: nah

[@SchemingRaven]

You had time to film and edit an 18 minute video on Daggerheart, but no time to read it?

[@SwitchbackCh]

The entire conceit of this video is very strange, to the point of disingenuous even. In a TRPG sphere where OSR clones are all around yet very much enjoyed by many, to ask if the world "needs" Daggerheart is a weird question to ask, especially for something still in beta. It feels like a "Where do you see yourself in five years?" line of half-hearted questioning that nobody can really meaningfully answer.

[@gmjeremy3627]

Does the world need any roleplaying games? Does the world need any of the hundreds (thousands? millions?) of roleplaying games that have already been created? Does the world need books? Music? Art? On one hand you can say, "no," but on the other hand it is a resounding, "yes." Didn't watch the video, I don't like game systems where the GM has points they need to remember to spend to make the game harder. I always feel like a jerk when I spend a point, "No! I'm going to make your dice roll harder!" or, "You fail, because I have this dark side point!" or "Danger point!" I love it when players have bennies, hero points, etc. etc. But, as a GM, I spend a lot of time "balancing" my encounters for the players, I don't need to spend "danger points" to make things more exciting. I feel like the mechanic makes the game an adversarial system, where the players are against the GM and the GM is against the players, and I don't like that. But, does the world need Daggerheart? See the beginning of this rant.

[@JasonV_DM]

An option on a game you haven't played is meaningless.

[@crowgoblin]

Can we please get Maddie a tshirt that just says “Yeahhhhh” ?

[@Battfro]

I am tabletop dev. I mostly make experimental games. I play with design a lot. I hate critical role and hate how it turned the hobby into a bunch of AP watching people who never play. I hate 5e and how it absolutely stole all the market space from actually good games. I hate WotC and think the industry would be better if D&D died. I also hate captialism and copyright as a concept and release my products with SRD on CC. And I am sitting here baffled at this discourse. You are somehow both annoyed they didn't change enough to justify it's existence (?) and mad it isn't just a D&D replacement by just being 5e? I, I don’t understand that at all. What do you want? A 5e clone or something completely original? That's a weird discourse. I am glad it's not a 5e clone even if I'll never play it because we have 3 5e clones in development. And it's weird to lament it isn't that. Then, it changed to appeal to critical role sensibilities and now it isn't different enough. Maybe it's a Fantasy Heartbreaker, but it is odd to say it doesn't deserve to exist. I've seen a lot, lot worse. And, honestly, the whole "the good thing about D&D is everyone play D&D" I fucking hate that shit. I want that shit dead. Dead. The entire industry eating its own excrement and saying replaying CoD every week is the hobby. Yuck. But, yeah, I don’t like Daggerheart but this discourse confuses me. And as a developer being asked "does this game deserve to exist or need to exist unnerves me."

[@tomfool23]

Any interest I had in even looking further at the system was deflated when I looked at the class list and saw it was just the D&D class list. It immediately felt like it wasn’t going to be “reinventing” things in an interesting way - and I think you correctly identified the reason as being that CR need to keep it familiar enough that they can use it in their actual play world and have it feel consistent with their previous work.

[@VictorDiGiovanni]

Does the world need Dicebreaker's KZbin channel and website? The answer is no. We have plenty of gaming websites that cover all the exact same games and gaming news. But I'm glad we have Dicebreaker because I like their particular brand of the exact same news. We don't "need" any new versions of any of the stuff we consume. We have more movies, TV shows, games, comics, music, modules, expansions than any human can even list out, much less watch or read or play. The question and answer we should be seeking is "Does this new (game/book/movie/etc) offer an interesting way in for new people or people who have gotten tired with the old stuff?" For countless people, Daggerheart will be their first RPG, and they won't have D&D or any other game to compare it to to say "Oh, this is just like that, but slightly different." Or Daggerheart will be just enough of a change to bring lapsed players back into the game. It's just hilarious, and very very disappointing to hear you guys say, in the same breath, "I play RPGs four to five times a week and I just don't know what Daggerheart brings that's any different." That statement automatically renders any opinions you might have almost irrelevant, at least as far as the title of this video is concerned. D&D is a game I no longer play, and don't answer the texts or emails when someone asks me to play it. Daggerheart is a game I MIGHT choose to play, as from what I've read, it leans more into the things I still like about RPGs, and leans away from the 'crunch' that I've grown so weary of.

[@junkred9466]

This needs to go top comment ☝️ And yeah, I invite everybody to give it a go, there are a lot of stuff that were bugging me in the rules, and I was ready to give mixed feedbacks after reading the rules. But once in played, it all clicked and now I just want more of it!

[@steveholmes11]

The opinions expressed above match mine almost exactly. I've listened to 4 or 5 descriptions of the whole hope and fear business, and I just glaze over. No feeling of "Wow, this is exactly what fantasy RPGs have been missing all these years". I question whether the D&D clone marketplace has room for Pathfinder, Kobold's Black Flag, MCDM and Daggerheart.

[@kennethnguyen7045]

I honestly find it funny that you guys are bagging on it not being something completely different and out of this world but it comes off as you guys trying to be edgy and different w/ the negative review even tho yall haven’t played it and you’re not fans of critical role and what they stand for 😂 If you actually watched the open beta videos they go over a lot of the points you make like it not being insanely diff but also taking the bits they enjoy out of dnd and making improvements on what they particularly think they’d enjoy. And they constantly say they’re really open to critique but yall just made a negative video 😂

[@12345gerrard]

Yes the world always needs new game books!

[@user-ir8fx6uv1j]

I haven’t read these rules yet, but what 5th edition did well is make the game approachable to people new to RPGs in a way that no previous d20, including pathfinder, ever managed to do. Having a “not dnd” that accomplishes that and supports creators in their community rather than occasionally threaten them, would be good. Whether they’ve succeeded or not is another matter.

[@rollforthings6184]

5th edition was simpler than previous editions of DnD, but the barrier to entry was still very high. The game itself wasn't what made 5e approachable. What did it was a slew of video content that made understanding it easier, and/or a bunch of popular media that referenced it and got people more dedicated to overcoming the barrier. KZbinrs, The Adventure Zone, Stranger Things and Critical Role are what made 5e so successful.

[@orangerful]

Oh thank goodness, I downloaded it to look and was immediately like “nope.” - didn’t look like it was doing anything new enough. I am excited for the reprint of For the Queen and the people that will pick that up because of the Darrington Press name

[@Matthew.thirtyseven]

it seems like more of a complicated board game than an RPG. I'm sort of meh on Daggerheart

[@rcycl5275]

Yeah, same feelings with it. They're pushing it as an action-packed narrative-focused game, but it has board game levels of admin: a time-track action system, a hand managament minigame for your abilities, several discrete fluctuating resources.

[@LeeCarlson]

I have played D&D since its first appearance in the world, and I have seen every new edition. I've also played Pathfinder, which, to me, is just a bloat on D&D. For my money, Daggerheart is the first ttrpg, in the same vein as D&D, that focuses on the narrative rather than the dice mechanics.

[@Webhead123]

I've been playing and running RPGs (so many different RPGs now that I've actually lost count) since 1995 and I have to be honest...I've never actually watched a single episode of Critical Role. I mean, I've seen an occasional 90-second clip on posted on YT or some other social media platform...but yeah, other than the fact that Matt Mercer is the host and that they are presumably playing "D&D" of some fashion, I couldn't tell you a single other thing about it. I understand that it seems like it was a big phenomenon and is responsible for many people being introduced to the hobby. I don't begrudge someone trying to develop an RPG for that crowd, however large that is. I don't begrudge someone from trying to develop an new RPG in general (even if it is fantasy/D&D adjacent). But such a thing needs to demonstrate a justification to exist. In other words, it needs to offer a compelling reason to want to choose it over something else. I don't know much about Daggerheart but everything I've heard recently doesn't exactly seeming to be selling its offering well.

[@andrewshandle]

The play test and character creator is free, you could just go look for yourself. It's radically different than D&D to, so I don't really understand your comment with regard to its justification to exist. That's even without the OGL own goal by WotC that would have impacted CR big time. As I said, the play test is free, just go download it and read it, if you don't like it, you don't like it. At least you'd do more than these two who didn't even bother before putting out a video with an opinion.

[@Webhead123]

@@andrewshandle I'll go take a look. Thanks for the info. Just by a few hints gathered from a couple of content creators, I suspect it may not be a game system for me...but that's by my own baggage and personal taste, not anyone else's. My comment about justification mostly has to do with what I perceive to be the "market" as it were for the game. That being an alternative to D&D for folks that are interested in role playing in the "Critical Role" style. D&D is such a central component of the hobby (like it or not) that there are indeed hundreds of games out there that try to service that crowd (Pathfinder being one of the more popular but far, FAR from the end all, be all). I just mean that if this is in fact Daggerheart's goal, to offer another D&D-adjacent experience, it really needs to stand out above the hundreds of other options out there. Cheers!

[@andrewshandle]

@@Webhead123 there's definitely a good chance the game isn't up your alley, but it's best to make that decision for yourself and given it's free to read it over, you might as well. FWIW, I had zero interest in it until I heard about the initiative-less combat and how it fixes the action economy issues 5E has and was pleasantly surprised after reading it. The market issue is very different. While Hasbro doesn't releasee just D&D numbers, it's estimated that they make between 100-150M a year just on D&D products. Paizo, which is number 2 makes 12M a year. Then there's Kobold Press (4.5M) and maybe even MCDM or Darrington Press all positioning for third. So there is a _lot_ of money out there that currently goes to D&D almost by default at this point, and if Black Flag, MCDM and CR can pull say 10M from that D&D pool of money, they can all survive. As for DH's goal, I imagine the first is to own their IP in case Hasbro has another bad year financially and does something weird again. But also, I think the rules for DH better suits the game they want to play at their table, which in turn is their Live Show that still is their cash cow. I also really think some tables that want to play a Sword and Sorcery type fantasy game who play a d20 system like D&D or PF now because those two are 95% of the market, are going to appreciate DH's more narrative based system that has snappier combat too. Or if they want to be more tactical, they might choose MCDM to scratch that itch. I think DH and MCDM being viable options is only a good thing.

[@rockandrollfantasy86]

Don't like it, don't play it. Like it, play it. Make your own system if you want. They are doing what they want and want feedback to give it more mass appeal. Stick to DnD if you want or don't but at least know what you're talking about before you make the next video.

[@sobersoul3397]

Daggerheart is actually pretty badass. The things I see most people hating on is the fact that it's not D&D. The rules allow for more fun at the table. If you struggle with the ruleset, im sorry. you're just low IQ. You do have to have a good table for this game, though I will say that. If you don't, the game doesn't work.

[@RulesandRulings]

It very much feels like Daggerheart is still in the spaghetti phase of development, lots of stuff thrown around to see what sticks. Every system goes through it. When it comes to new fantasy RPGs, I think DC20, Vagabond and MCDM are all a bit more focused on what they want.

[@APaganPerspective]

does it matter crit role is getting played out

[@IAmDollop]

I’d love to see the Dicebreaker team have a look at DC20!

[@scottmcfarlane7524]

By the same idea do we need Dicebreakers youtube....There are a lot of KZbinrs with better platforms and better set ups. Does the world need Dicebreakers.......

[@trollishmc2920]

Have very little interest in this. And no... I don't think it's really needed. We have plenty of fantasy RPGs of all sorts.

[@danrimo826]

I think they should ditch elves, dwarves and halflings. That would at least make DH feel different to D&D. I tried to read the packet but honestly I looked at all the ancestries and I got immediately exhausted.

[@JadeHarleyCoffeeMug]

less character options will help!! are you stupid?

[@renzopinasco2206]

Maaaadddiiieeeeeeee

[@snoophogg85]

It looks like a big ol' mess. The only thing that seems obvious to me is that CR wants not to be losing a massive potential revenue stream (sales of books, etc) to another company. I definitely agree that it feels they're just throwing shit at the wall to make it different. I'm with Wheels though, it's not for me in any way shape or form, but I am concerned about CR and the effect it has on the hobby in terms of expectations and perceptions for new players.