Did Ancient Battlefield Maps Really Exist? (Fact or Fiction)

[@InvictaHistory]

As a longtime fan of military history I have spent countless hours analyzing or creating my own battle maps. However, until now, I never really stopped to dig in to the history of the maps themselves. I really love doing this sort of analysis. Do you have any other sorts of questions we could look in to?

[@SuperQuebecois]

How long did battle actually last ? Did numbers really change that ? Average Roman Empire battle lenght vs Average battle time in China of the same time of history or something like that

[@aggressivefish3028]

What about naval battles did they happen often are they as chaotic as movies say they are and how many could fit on a ship

[@raresdumitras3291]

I was wondering how soldiers from ancient times could go on campaigns for many years and cope with the absence of their wives. Army soldiers have other needs besides being fed and hydrated.

[@LuisAldamiz]

I'd think that, even if those grandiose and heavily detailed war maps were not real, some sort of map-like schematics was indeed used when planning, including some sort of representation of the units, could just be ad-hoc pebbles on a drawing on the ground. This kind of mapping activity is very important when planning and even Austronesian navigators used it to some extent. You don't need an accurate map but you do need often enough some sort of scheme so various officers can more easily put in common their knowledge of the situation and ideas. The existance of war games of sorts in the Ancient world (poleis, latrunculi, game of Ur, senet), while a pass time, clearly indicates that kind of mindset, and IMHO you may be unadvertedly discounting not reported information about how the generals and commanders studied the situation and took decisions when not in the heat of battle.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@LuisAldamiz in essence, a terrain sketch, probably drawn with a stick/foot or placed with sticks, pebbles and availiable materials from the ground on site was probably used then just as it is now, but not the permanent style of maps used today to draw up marching orders or tactical situation maps for larger than company sized formations using mission tactics in combined arms operations.

[@austinhaynes6420]

One of the main characters: *stabs map with a knife to signal where to attack* Guy who spent 30 weeks making the map: -.-

[@spectrumaevum7476]

I knew I should have used marble...

[@Drebolaskan]

"Im charging extra for your next map, buddy"

[@520lun]

Beauty and harmony, governed by one eternal law, all that begin must end , the reign of the old shogunate is OVER!!!!! (Proceed to stab the Japan map

[@zarakdurrani7584]

Lin Nakaha cartographer: am i a joke to you?

[@Drebolaskan]

@@520lun Fellow warlord! The Shimazu greet thee

[@Oxtocoatl13]

There is a reason why Machiavelli stressed the importance of getting to know your land personally by constantly travelling and hunting in the terrain while imagining possible encounters with the enemy. You couldn't buy an accurate topographic map anywhere. Actually, this problem persisted into the beginning of World War One. No maps designed for aerial navigation existed in the early part of the war and British pilots were sometimes forced to rely on things as crude as school geography books. They ended up following railroads and flying low so they could see the signs on the stations just to get an idea of where they were.

[@hedgehog3180]

@Common Sense I think it also makes sense to add how during night attacks planes usually just navigated by lights and that's why the sole purpose of some bombers was just to drop flares so the rest of the attack could see the target. This is also why blackout was so important because even with accurate maps and good navigators it's really hard to navigate a plane during night. I mean even with GPS it can be easy to lose your bearing in planes since you're entirely relying on instruments.

[@histguy101]

Machiavelli had access to very accurate maps. He didn't live in ancient times. He lived in an era of cartography.

[@Arselpang]

@Common Sense Maybe they had it to. But Von Falkenhorst used a tourist-guide mapbook from Baedeker as he only had under 24 hours to come up with an invasion plan to Hitler.

[@rudolfschrenk6171]

Even in the Vietnam war, the americans had to use maps provided by the french which they often found badly inaccurate.

[@patsfreak]

Alexander the great with a GPS would've been something to see

[@joshuacampbell1625]

He would of figured out not to go through the Gedrosian Desert if he had one.

[@napolien1310]

He will break it and raise his sword highe and command forward men

[@romaliop]

​@@joshuacampbell1625 What kind of a demigod is afraid of some lousy desert? It's his destiny to go through it, so go through it he will.

[@joshuacampbell1625]

@@romaliop I can think of several THOUSAND Macedonian Sarissa Infantry who disagree with that.

[@solwen]

"What ?! We have to walk 20 000 stades to go to India ?! Nah, it's too far., Let's stay home"

[@xxAnaconta]

"War is quite simple really , just make sure you win and also not to lose lol" Alexander the Great 331 BC

[@pegjames188]

War,huh ,good god ,what is it good for, absolutely nothing. Edwin Starr 1970.

[@justiron2999]

@@pegjames188 Aside from improving ways to kill each other and then wasys to negate those methods also internet.

[@monetum1392]

@@pegjames188 Oh my how deep 🙄

[@pegjames188]

@@monetum1392 you don't do humour then; too nuonced?

[@benjaminmiddaugh2729]

"To win, just get there the fastest with the most." Nathan Bedford Forrest (my paraphrase)

[@wailrimouche1171]

"on a Galactic SCALE" * jumps to a warhammer 40k picture*

[@ThaRealElTigra]

It surprised the heck out of me. "NOW we're talking!" Also: Imperium strong

[@AcZe1188]

More like, "der r mor enemiez herz so u go arowndz and gib dem da dakka n u here wil go upz front n giv em mor dakka"

[@Waspyethan]

the emperor protects

[@ekuahmartreb9082]

@@AcZe1188 You seriously think that orks would use ambush tactics? Think of all the fighting they are missing! Dakka is good but choppa is better.

[@SophiaAstatine]

Oh boi. Oh boi. Oh boi.

[@VladiSSius]

They could've just press M to open up map screen. Nubs.

[@esabellasilvrstre6476]

Well you have to pay 20 dollars to unlock it.

[@fpsgod3028]

Esabella Silvrstre nah I just get one from the steam workshop

[@kerimozdemir4009]

heh noobians

[@roguevector1268]

Ancient Greeks and Romans were console players confirmed /s

[@neurofiedyamato8763]

20 dollars to unlock it? Scheming EA is at it again.

[@asfm2]

General: Just walk forwa- Messenger: THE MEN ARE FLEEING THE BATTLEFIELD

[@mhiggins6307]

What a shameful display!

[@bashkillszombies]

@@mhiggins6307 SHAMEFUR DISRPAY Sorry, I got the Wu Flu. :( COOF.

[@goobfilmcast4239]

Imagine seeing Titus looking at a map as he plans his SIEGE OF JERUSALEM part 4 !!!!!

[@rubenheymans1988]

Lol, he said he is working on it though, or at least soon

[@Razzy1312]

What will come first? Half Life 3 or Siege of Jerusalem Part 4?

[@chainsaw5302]

@@Razzy1312 Colonization of The Galaxy

[@jimypiha8]

Moshe Dayan leads Israel to retake Jerusalem, while Rome is long long gone:

[@LOLquendoTV]

@Cheryl heh your comment aged poorly

[@Cato229]

It's funny the things one never questions. Great topic!

[@devilhunterred]

His information is false. Cartography is ancient China was much more advanced. They found accurate provincial maps drawn on silk dating back Qin dynasty of 4th century BCE. Using abstract maps for battle planning also existed, it eventually evolved into the game of Go, which existed as far back as 2,500 years ago.

[@arokjuata3365]

@@devilhunterred now i wonder if chinese, Indo-china, and south east asian kingdoms in the past use tactical map

[@secario2135]

@@devilhunterred his talking about greek and roman not chinese western civilization did use maps but not for battle or war

[@primetime3422]

I am building a game that's gonna be as accurate as possible to medieval and antiquity warfare. I now know I can't use maps.

[@Cato229]

@@primetime3422 Cool. You might consider hiring these guys to review your work when it's ready.

[@GM_Lemmy]

I keep seeing the ad for the GoT browser game... At this point it's just sad.

[@specific_protagonist]

I've turned of ads just because KZbin insists on showing me the same ad every single video :-/

[@bigplayjayy]

@@specific_protagonist is it possible to learn this power?

[@cesargeney5268]

And it is a shitty game

[@BleachFan2588]

@@bigplayjayy cough cough adblock cough cough

[@alexanderstrickland9036]

The ones that really piss me off are the Chinese apps that use other games’ gameplay in their ads. Some little kid will see Age Of Empires for the first time and it’s on some ad for some shitty mobile game.

[@ichifish]

To me the real takeaway here is how modern people conceive of their experiences differently. I could tell you how to drive from point A to point Z around the town I grew up in 30 years ago, but probably couldn't draw a realistic map. Now at age 49 I can't even imagine spaces like the city I live in or the university I work at without using a bird's eye view.

[@corettaha7855]

I’ve read about cultures that use only directions and not left and right to indicate direction. They’re a lot better at spatial tasks generally because they don’t use that relativistic crutch.

[@BicyclesMayUseFullLane]

Eh, a lot of people can't really think in bird eye's view, and giving them a map to navigate is completely counterproductive. However, they can still use landmarks to navigate, which is why Google streetview is amazing. It combines both bird's eye view of a regular map, and with possibility to go down to human eye's level, where people could memorize the significant landmarks on the road.

[@1224chrisng]

Vsauce made an episode about video games chamge human perception. He found that most people would use a birds eye view to navigate a maze, whereas gamers would think at ground level

[@hemantachamveedu7261]

Hats Off , Invicta. Again you have hit solid gold in the quest for historical accuracy.

[@InvictaHistory]

This was a really fun one to dive in to. I really loved all the quotes from Thucydides which the researcher dug up!

[@NspPrick]

@@InvictaHistory If you're interested, or have downtime to read. Donald Kagan's THUCYDIDES and The Peloponnesian War are two very good reads.

[@devilhunterred]

His information is false. Cartography is ancient China was much more advanced. They found accurate provincial maps drawn on silk dating back Qin dynasty of 4th century BCE. Using abstract maps for battle planning also existed, it eventually evolved into the game of Go, which existed as far back as 2,500 years ago.

[@kynandecoster3752]

can you do a video on soldiers training? Like the Romans and Spartans did. Love your video's.

[@ECHOFOXTROT289]

Kynan, great idea!

[@pca1987]

I support this.

[@XSobonoX]

Go check out the Metatron on KZbin. He does stuff like that.

[@Lobster_Lars]

The Spartans training wasn't that notable

[@moisesflores5405]

The Spartans didn't have any soldier training aside from practicing simple formation drills with their allies out in campaign. They had no weapon training or anything of that sort.

[@pca1987]

Short answer: no Long answer: watch it, they explain a lot about planning battles.

[@randysavage1]

Lmao. Only a dumbass wouldnt draw up a map of the surrounding terrain after specifically picking the battlefield for tactical advantages. Ya they planned it all in their head based off memory. Even children know to draw their plan in the sand before pulling a prank. Im sure kings are dummber than children.

[@pca1987]

@@randysavage1 I agree that they probably draw something (at least stupid sketches on sand), but this is not what they're talking about. And if kings were dumber than kids, History would be a lot duller.

[@devilhunterred]

His information is false. Cartography is ancient China was much more advanced. They found accurate provincial maps drawn on silk dating back Qin dynasty of 4th century BCE. Using abstract maps for battle planning also existed, it eventually evolved into the game of Go, which existed as far back as 2,500 years ago.

[@onetwothreefour7547]

@@devilhunterred That's for ancient China, this video is on more Western Civ.

[@devilhunterred]

@@onetwothreefour7547 That's not what the video claims. The video claims that battle maps were not used in the ancient world, not Western ancient world or Western Antiquity. Han China was part of the ancient world, therefore by stating that battle maps were not used in the ancient world, it includes ancient China.

[@ernavill3261]

I can already imagine future spacewar officers laughing after their instructor said "Commanders of the 21st century used 2d maps to plan their strategy!"

[@IPFreelly604]

Imagine needing eyeballs to plan for battle.

[@jic1]

@@IPFreelly604 Eyeballs? Imagine needing a physical body!

[@freedomloverusa3030]

Indeed.

[@a.morphous66]

@@jic1 ​ Imagine having to plan for battles and not simply beaming cognitohazards directly into the opponent’s existential shadow.

[@chandlerkilpatrick1260]

Amazing how far this channel has come and how much it’s grown.

[@carlosrobertson6124]

as a recipient of a worthless undergrad in European history degree, this has got to be the coolest shit I never learned about

[@ernavill3261]

They probably leave the cool stuff for the postgrads :P

[@anuradhakhandeparkar9909]

@@ernavill3261 true that

[@stunner9005]

It’s not completely useless, it will be needed once Europe starts to burn history books for “offending” others.

[@ernavill3261]

@@stunner9005 you sound angry about some non-ancester of yours who turned out not to be 100% awesome and you feel 'Europe' is to blame.

[@trueshockgaming329]

@@ernavill3261 Do you not understand his comment?

[@UM7942]

So you’re telling me they didn’t have dragons back then to design their battle maps?

[@chainsaw5302]

Nuts!! He gave no Valid reasons for such theory.

[@Hijfblog]

With their dragons and raven wargs the westerosians may have had a much more cartographical society than we had!

[@monkofdarktimes]

At least a map has there be dragons

[@ernavill3261]

Why do you think accurate maps were possible in Westeros but not here!

[@umarabdaziz]

There is no dragon

[@MDP1702]

So basically they relied on their own knowledge of the battlefield and that of scouts. However, I still think very simple maps could/would be used to showcase an idea, even if it is just as simple as drawing some lines in the ground.

[@InvictaHistory]

Yeah I think its pretty likely that they would have at least done that or had something similar to sand tables. However this is speculation as we don't really have any evidence of this.

[@LuisAldamiz]

I'm all for the actual use of some sort of schematic maps, a sandbox as suggested by Invicta is a rather elaborate device, I'd rather think on simpler schematics such as drawings on the ground (or clay or whatever convenient support) with maybe rocks representing mountains and smaller pebbles representing the units, all very ad-hoc but functional enough. The main purpose of this kind of approximative map would be for the commanders (and scouts) to exchange knowledge of the situation and more easily exchange ideas on how to proceed. Said that, Romans are said to have got very poor scouting (because their cavalry was too posh to endure the job of scouting).

[@Omegaures]

@@InvictaHistory It's more convincing speculation than your conjectures. You are making a positive general claim using irrelevant examples. (the fundamental implication of your comment contraddicts the premise of the video and) You showed no evidence that they didn't use maps.

[@benjaminmiddaugh2729]

@@Omegaures His comment does not contradict the premise of the video. The video was about using maps in the modern sense (getting a grand overview of the situation as known, and then laying out a complete strategy). The comment thread is about taking a basic idea for one part of the strategy and illustrating it with a simple (probably ephemeral) sketch. I suspect a middle ground between the two. In a world where you get your information from direct observation and scouting reports, drawing things out probably isn't necessary (just have someone who's learned the terrain act as a guide, and do good scouting). Planning sieges, though, might have had a bit more drawing going on. Whatever the case, anything resembling graphical planning is not known to have survived, so we don't know for sure. Speculation is interesting, though. You might enjoy it.

[@Omegaures]

@@benjaminmiddaugh2729 Redefining the premis won't get you out of it.

[@Euphoric19]

Forget that, instead. Did Generals really put daggers in map instead?

[@ernavill3261]

Lol unfortunately they most likely didn't. Ruining the edge of your blade for no good reason at all is another Hollywood invention. If you spent hours maintaining your equipment you won't ruin it by sticking it in a table or in the ground. (I know you're likely making a joke but couldn't resist giving the answer anyway 😁)

[@Rynewulf]

@@ernavill3261 not to mention ruining a really expensive, rare and useful map

[@elimalinsky7069]

@@Rynewulf maps were actually so valuable, I woundn't be surprised if somewhere at some point there was a capital punishment for damaging a map.

[@ernavill3261]

@@elimalinsky7069 yes the vast personal libraries we see in medieval films makes people greatly undervalue the price of a book before the printing press was invented (and how significant that invention was).

[@elimalinsky7069]

@@ernavill3261 it's worth mentioning that even high nobility was often illiterate in the middle ages and writing was almost completely restricted to monastetries and the monks who copied the books with intricate detail. Book copies were as valuable as jewelery in those days. Nearly all political negotiations were conducted orally, as well as decrees, reports, orders, plans and the vast majority of decision making as a whole. Only hereditary laws were written down, and that was by the court scribe who was often the only one in the hall able to read and write.

[@aysseralwan]

"Kriegsspiel" literally translates to war game or game of war

[@V4ka1]

Scandinavia also uses the word Krigsspel/Krigspil :)

[@dogle9258]

I’ve never heard of it but if it’s like Risk. I want to play.

[@cognitivedisability9864]

@@dogle9258 its like chess it seems, googled it just now

[@festethephule7553]

@@cognitivedisability9864 There's a variant of chess that goes by that name, but that's not what is being reffered to here.

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

@@dogle9258 the British used something like it to find the best way for convoy escorts to operate. Fog of war, neutral observers moving the pieces around, timetables, hit/miss ratio's at certain angles and a bit of randomization. Old games like 'panzer general' look a lot like it.

[@Alorand]

14:25 - The Emperor protects! *makes the sign of the aquila*

[@gamerdude506]

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!!!

[@NspPrick]

Why do you refuse the orgies and murder?

[@fpicotte]

For so many reasons it's obvious that even commanders didn't have access to highly detailed aerial maps of every conceivable battleground, but that is pretty much the only argument I see in this video: their tools were not as Hollywood depicts them. Yet that doesn't exclude any implements and visual aids at all. Any commander would understand the benefits of planning their rough battle tactics, putting them to the test, and communicating them by drawing circles, x's and arrows in the sand or dirt (at the least... paper sure came later and parchment was expensive, but wax tablets were relatively common in the Roman era). The preserved map in the legionary's shield at 2:45 is proof enough that even down to the rank and file soldiers they valued rough visual representations (i.e. maps), if at least to navigate the land. From there, depicting tactical landmarks such as high ground, obstacles and troop movement is barely one logical step away. I see a lot of conjectures but very little supporting arguments in favour of a claim that was poorly explained in the first place. Highly detailed aerial (aka modern) maps? No. No cartographic representations at all? Very doubtful. Yet that's still called a map. I'll need to see scholarly publications supporting your claim before taking that video seriously.

[@sirensmelodyltd6118]

I picture something like how a basketball coach draws up a play during the timeout.

[@rpavangchhia8953]

The video explains if they used geographically accurate 2d paper maps or chess pieces like in the hollywood movies.Drawing lines on the ground is common sense,everyone knows they did it.

[@davidec.4021]

Exactly. Especially because yes of course plans were not as complicated as they would have been 2000 years later (duh?) but were absolutely not as simple as he’s trying to make them. Just look at Caesar in Gaul! Divisions hitting supply lines, securing high-grounds, while other attacked weaker points whilst some others distracted while others again built fortifications. This video starts by saying how important scouts etc were but then proceeds to just downplay the whole war machine of ancient times. Not to mention how well you had to know all the surroundings in order to establish (and keep) a supply line and foraging parties. Not the quality this channel is know for tbh.

[@jic1]

"that is pretty much the only argument I see in this video: their tools were not as Hollywood depicts them." Well, you're essentially claiming 'the only argument he successfully makes is the one this video is centered around'.

[@CatroiOz]

No plan survives first contact with the enemy. Napoleon : laughs in Austerlitz

[@Peptuck]

One movie I saw that actually portrayed pre-map planning realistically was a Japanese movie named 13 Assassins. In that movie, the assassins were plotting out the course their target would take between villages. Instead of a map, they had a series of towns on a scroll with lines connecting them, showing which ones could be reached from which town, and they used that to determine his route.

[@philo9609]

‘In war everything is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult’ von Clausewitz (roughly)

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

That quote can be applied to a lot of things in life

[@robertmitchell3271]

It makes sense though, I know my city on foot rather than by map

[@thitherword]

You should probably credit your artists... 5:05 Is from Lindybeige's graphic novel. The artist is Christopher Steininger.

[@KOTOKOARTS]

I was hoping someone would point that out, at the very least they should have left the title on the work itself. Lindy and Chris deserve the credit for the years theyve spent working on it. If anyone is wondering the novel is called "In Search of Hannibal."

[@redMrCrayon]

I hate lindybeige

[@kingmane908]

@@redMrCrayon 😂😂 I will never understand the human mind

[@KageMinowara]

@@redMrCrayon Your mom gay.

[@trevorcontreras7617]

Invicta, your channel has taught me more about history than all of elementary school, high school and college combined. It's all thanks to your ability to illuminate the mindset of the ancients. To put us in the same view point as them is exactly why we study history. Facts, dates, people, and events are what I've expected to learn from studying history, yet I've yearned for something more that I've never been able to put my finger on it. How your channel is able to put me into the shoes of the ancients' is what I've been looking for. Your channel inspires me to dedicate the rest of my life to developing better ways of seeing things from the same perspective as the ancients', or at least as close as possible. Everyone of Invicta, I thank you. All of you are doing a great service for mankind.

[@theinacircleoftheancientpu492]

This gives me great respect for the spatial imagination of the great generals.

[@733835]

The Turin Papyrus does describe the routes depicted, but it`s drawn in plan, birds eye view, and even shows different geology represented with different colors, and it`s from 1150 BC.

[@tomorbataar5922]

The forces of Chaos are allways at work (in combat situations) -Invicta, before taken away by the Inqusition.

[@infantrytactics1233]

7:39 I see.... A fellow that realizes the greatness of the Imperium of Man.

[@gamerdude506]

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!!!

[@infantrytactics1233]

@@gamerdude506 *Blam! Stupid heretic!

[@UCUCUC27]

the astra militarum holds!

[@pontifex1853]

I wonder what the greatest ancient generals would be able to do with a modern map against their opponents.

[@pontifex1853]

@@tl8211 Not sure if Alexander the Great would agree with the "I can't do it" part... :P

[@rpavangchhia8953]

they would need a cellphone with the maps,to coordinate their troops.I honestly dont think it would change much. It would probably be equivalent to america having 3d holographic maps in the vietnam war or afghanistan war.

[@zandyllatos7473]

Great video. As a sidenote though, there are accounts of generals in antiquity drawing up what we in modern armies refer to as a 'sandbox' or 'sandtable'. This is a makeshift 'map' constructed with tools available to the commander on the field (Mainly sand, rocks, twigs, etc..). A commander today, and a general in antiquity, would go about this roughly the same way. Relying on information relayed to them by scouts and constructing a sandbox that represents the AO as accurately as possible (or needed) to give an easier tactical comprehension.

[@brningpyre]

The art in this video is fantastic!

[@casual96]

Best informational KZbin Chanel about ancient time! Keep it up 👍🏼

[@Brazbrah]

The battles in Time Commanders ingrained in me the importance of maps for Roman battles.

[@sladepaaw4667]

Excellent video though I did have a good chuckle at 6:02 about, "where the scrubs are to hide an ambush." Keep up the awesome content!

[@Yassinekamp]

Maybe those ancient generals made mental maps in their minds based on information they gathered about the terrain.

[@Killzoneguy117]

Generals would definitely understand the geography and general idea of the area they live in. Even you and I can understand our neighborhood with some generality based purely on landmarks. Like I know how to get from home to university without knowing the streets, but purely based on landmarks. So I imagine mental maps would be used. But they wouldn't put those maps down. And to be honest, that makes a lot of sense. A lot of military campaigns were hardly preplanned with specific objectives. The objectives were capture as much territory as you can before you either a) encounter unbreakable enemy resistance or b) force the enemy to capitulate. In that situation, you wouldn't know how big the map you need would be. And you don't know where you'd be fighting battles. If you relied on maps, that's a lot of potential maps you'd have to have made. Which would require significant investments in time, money, resources, etc. that you may not have with an army.

[@tristan3947]

Wow I don’t know how long it has been but I started watching you when you were uploading total war and now you have 500k subscribers I congratulate you on your success!

[@khalidibnalwalled7638]

Invicta: battles in the past is so simple and there is no complex in it Khalid bin alwaled: hold my beer

[@alexsola8023]

Just checking up the idea that the song of ice and fire maps are slightly easier to believe because for almost a thousand years the ruling faction had access to flight

[@jatzi1526]

Obi-wan approves of that flanking maneuver that was described

[@broseffman]

I'm so incredibly proud of you for showing a 40k map.

[@kaisersouze9515]

Most of this video is no more than supposition. We have no way to know, with any certainty, how ancient plans were made, there are virtually no records of the processes. They probably didn't use maps as we think of them, but I find hard to believe the planing was made without any visual aid. A mere couple of coins in a table would be so helpful in planing, registering and passing orders, especially in events like sieges where a small gap could mean faliure.

[@janeappleseed2154]

I don't even think that the person who made this video has a history degree.

[@vaultscribe4501]

Super thankful for this. Even though my stories tend to be high fantasy, this really helped me ground the language and visuals. I was better able to imaging what might be used in a world where magic would be a substitute for gunpowder, but where aristocracy and fear of the loss of the super weapons wizards would be could create an incomplete transition from one form of battle and another. I think my ideas still need work, but, like many with their magic systems, imaging warfare in a magic world ‘realistically’ is always fun. History videos on all the facets of war in antiquity, like yours, is an awesome help!

[@jarogniewtheconqueror2804]

Flying beasts in fantasy could make maps work for small battlefields. They would also be great for reconaisance

[@Morrigi192]

And raiding.

[@cfosburg]

I really enjoyed this subject!!! I would love to learn more about this topic. - How did ancient generals plan for battle (in more detail and different eras as well as different regions of the world)? - What did the evolution of planning look like? - When/what were the major breakthroughs in using Maps for Warfare? - When did leaders start using Maps as we think of them? - Washington was a land surveyor, did this yield to any advantages for him in battle if so what were they?

[@m1ndf8ke]

I see no reason why they wouldn't have used dirt/sand maps in the same way we do today

[@InvictaHistory]

I think for some basic concepts and action on a small scale they likely would have. But this is ultimately quite different from the detailed maps depicted in media.

[@dogle9258]

It is a very good question as to when the first sand table was created to show the soldiers in a unit what was to be done.

[@dylanderouin2888]

Taking in the information that was available and finding whatever method could instill a general direction; confirmed by relative landmarks and further details acquired by first hand or second hand account. I'll keep this in mind for my fiction! Thank you Invicta!

[@devilhunterred]

His information is false. Cartography is ancient China was much more advanced. They found accurate provincial maps drawn on silk dating back Qin dynasty of 4th century BCE. Using abstract maps for battle planning also existed, it eventually evolved into the game of Go, which existed as far back as 2,500 years ago.

[@hantms]

Very interesting. I can also comment that use of maps (2D representation of anything) wasn't very common until extremely recently in many parts of the world, especially among the general population. I came to Thailand in the early 1990s and it proved completely impossible to explain anything at all using a map even to people who's job it was to drive around the city, like taxi drivers. The best map was one that had place names in both languages so you could just point at the word. Hotels and restaurants often explained their location with a basic map in their newspaper ad or business card but it was so schematic an not to scale it was ridiculous, with North also being in any arbitrary direction. (Maps with North being up also seem recent.) The basic map basically had straight lines for roads so you count the number of roads you pass coming from a landmark like a river. (The schematic map being needed because an address system with numbered buildings that are unique and sequential along a road is ALSO not common everywhere in the world. ;) ) This is a lot better now, probably just due to smartphones and Google Maps being so ubiquitous; it really hammers home a 2D representation of the world.

[@lambastepirate]

I imagine an impromptu map would be done by drawing a few lines in the dirt back then with input from your scouts! Thus no maps would survive.

[@MajkaSrajka]

I love how back in the days maps were more like cookbooks than modern maps.

[@istvansipos9940]

time traveller: - Do you have a map? a dude: - Sure. Here! (gives a "map") time traveller: - Hmmm... Nice! Nice indeed. Now, do you have a map?

[@stephaniem.matthews5539]

This really is one of those things that I never stopped to think about before but it does, of course, make complete sense. Thanks for covering this!

[@AesirUnlimited]

I think my ideas of travel are more old school, when it comes to travel I always go by landmarks and a step by step list of how to get somewhere. Maps have always just seemed strange to me, I couldn’t ever wrap my head around the lines and shapes of a map. I prefer real tangible landmarks and distances and travel times.

[@1320crusier]

This such a simple topic which is ironically incredibly fascinating. Thanks :)

[@kolinmartz]

Even today we are taught to go on a leader’s reconnaissance when conducting some military movements.

[@spiritvdc5109]

Information really is the greatest weapon

[@imeize]

I know you were partly joking about imagining driving cross-country without GPS but honestly everyone should have an accurate up to date paper roadmap in their vehicles. Any number of things could sabotage the GPS system, and so being able to navigate the roads by just a paper map and reading the highway signs is a good skill to have!

[@Dragonboy118]

Wait a minute. This would have worked in Game of Thrones because they made the map based on dragon flight. #Dragonstone has a table that was built after Aegon flew over westeros.

[@raeitifraosi6247]

Ancient Chinese kingdoms, specially before the three kingdoms pre unification period, about 500 years before; were obsessed with maps.. yet I've never seen any mention of a map in their battle preparations. Much as with the west they scouted, survey and interrogated locals if possible beforehand.

[@mivapusa]

Xenophon made that trip in more than 12 Parsecs

[@NPC-rq9tp]

Han should have been leading them.

[@jamesforreal]

"No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy". How true this is even in today's world. Great video!

[@ZecaPinto1]

Short answer: yes Long answer: to make it simple travel to a city, go to a place your choice, chose a building an make the sketch of its view from above by walking around it

[@ravener96]

to some degree i feel maps must have been part of planning, but mostly during the immediate planning of battles and sieges where your scouts could inform your map. if you have seen a modern briefing for soldiers in the field, they will often build a rudimentary map of the surroundings in a small box so the commander can physically move around and point at positions. this could just as well be done in the past by deploying scouts to check out the surrounding areas and report back

[@coolwhiprofl]

In history there is fact and there is fiction. You feeling like something is true doesn't mean anything

[@ravener96]

@@coolwhiprofl sure, this is just a pretty dang obsure fact we dont have much info about either way. im not saying they used proper maps, but physical models of terrain were used by romans routinely (at least i heard they had physical models during triumphs), so it wouldnt be unknown to them. given how usefull a physical model is for even small scale combat today during briefings i would be very suprized if physical aides werent employed.

[@PeklyCZ]

I am really simple man, i see Warhammer 40k reference, i press like :)

[@Fitzger00]

Who the hell does the work/art/research for this channel ?! It’s absolutely amazing.

[@v44n7]

Herodotus map was amazing... I mean was from 430 BC OMG! Its incredible how Last night I spend 2-3 hours searching for this stuff on the internet, curious about how the romans saw the empire and where to attack and so forth. just an incredible coincidence. amazing video like always!

[@coolwhiprofl]

Just want to let you know that Herodotus actually never made any maps. The maps you see from him are modern and just drawn based on his descriptions.

[@v44n7]

@@coolwhiprofl oh I didn't know that, It was too good to be real

[@scrubJabroni]

Nice job as always. Very excited for the upcoming episode on kriegsspeil and wargaming!

[@goncalofonseca3873]

There was simply no useful 2D visualization until the advent of nautical charts c.1300 CE, which requires compass and trigonometry to navigate (tools not generally available before then). And land charts took even more centuries to develop after that. An important point not mentioned in the video (but implied in the discussion of Xenophon) is that people had actually very little idea about where things were located relative to each other on land. At sea it was a different story - ships armed with compasses and sand hourglasses carefully recorded the exact bearings and distances between coastal locations with precision. (e.g. "To get from Rome to Palermo, sail 220 miles southwest, then another 105 miles south", etc.). Nautical rutters with this kind of collected info have been available since antiquity. And you don't need a 2D map visualization - you could actually just use that written bearing-and-distance information to mentally "construct" or "chart" new routes with perfect precision. But on land, this information was not available. Bearings and distances between land locations were simply not recorded. You just followed the same old time-hewn goat paths between villages and towns, with all their twists and turns, until you got to your destination. So whether that road winded NW, NNW or N, and for how many yards at a stretch, wasn't recorded anywhere. You were just told "go along this road, and in two days you'll get there". So you stuck to the road. There simply wasn't enough information to allow you to deviate from established land paths and expect to show up where you're supposed to show up. Until the advent of professional surveying in the 17th C., when people were hired to walk around with compasses, yardsticks and trig tables recording land information, there were no land maps useful enough to plan military campaigns.

[@hedgehog3180]

This is also btw why churches have bell towers, they weren't just there for prestige it was also practical for travelers to have a landmark like a bell tower to navigate after and to know when they were getting close to the city.

[@GuntherRommel]

GREAT video, Invicta.

[@HebaruSan]

Did Ancient Battlefield Mages Really Exist?

[@PATTHECATMCD]

I think you will find the invention of the printing press more significant than gunpowder in getting maps into wider use.

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

Maybe the printed press give armies the means to produce big amounts of maps... But it was the gunpowder who gave armies the NEED to produce big amounts of maps (because it expanded the range in wich the armies could combat each others and therefore increased the role the topography of wide territories played in battle and it's complexity)

[@Armorius2199]

Who is up for blindfolded total war. Hehe.

[@yungfaas6688]

Love the videos man!

[@p_heinel4726]

It's like playing videogames in late 90's to early 2000 with text based gamefaqs

[@TemenosL]

Massively overstating the 'small scale' and 'lack of complex command' of pre-modern conflict, as well as the assertion that armies were always 'tightly packed' being false.

[@thedrunkalchemist5442]

I agree hes really dumbing down the capabilities of the past. The past literally have us what we have. If they didnt have maps then where did we or hollywood get the idea?

[@jochi8874]

Television: *shows scene from total war three kingdoms*

[@HermesSonofZeus]

Thank you for continuing to make such excellent videos.

[@alichi101]

Map Map Map, why do you focus on accurate aerial maps. Anyone spending even a token amount of thought on it can agree that accurate topdown maps weren't used. BUT, and it is a big but, you have presented ZERO arguments against visual aids. In other words, simple maps. I cannot believe that ancient generals never used visual aids like drawing figures on the ground representing rivers, approximate fording locations, hills, woods, reported location of the enemy, their camp and so on. It is such a powerful and cheap tool to use and convey useful information to everyone looking at it. AND IT IS A MAP. Just drawing a quick visual on the ground, directions of landmarks, important locations and so on is incredibly useful in conveying information to several people at once.

[@dennislp3]

See...the problem with what your talking about is that it has no historical evidence to back it up. They probably did those things...but why spread such things with no proof? That is not how historical information and science work. Also near the end he makes a list of three reason maps (as described) were not used. Points 2 and 3 cover what you said. Finally...he has a very direct and clear topic. The video is about if they used maps to plan battles...not "what methods did they use to plan battles".

[@jic1]

" BUT, and it is a big but, you have presented ZERO arguments against visual aids. In other words, simple maps." Because it's impossible to prove that a particular thing never existed/was used, only that there was no evidence for its existence/use. But, since he was in fact arguing against the historical accuracy of a particular movie/TV/literary cliche, not the complete and total absence of any visual aids in military planning, I think he made a very convincing case.

[@LucaHMafra]

Nice video, mate. I really like the use of ancient sources. I'm now waiting for the *kriegsspiel* video. =]

[@jodofe4879]

The video makes a very good point that ancient commanders did not meticulously plan their military operations on detailed maps as is often depicted in movies and games. But it is not like ancient people did not use maps at all. They would have used more rudimentary maps to plan campaigns, travels and for administrative purposes. For a commander for example it was important to know the locations of cities and enemy garrisons in relation to rivers, crossings, hills etc. before setting out, and when you are still hundreds of miles away from the area you are marching towards you can't rely yet on natives and scouts to tell you the details that determine which city to attack first, where to cross river X, along what road to get your supplies to place Y etc. Of course, the maps used for such purposes don't have to be anywhere near as detailed or accurate as modern maps. Ancient people where indeed more concerned with distances, landmarks (especially rivers) and rough directions than with knowing the precise lay of the land. It is also not true that people in the past did not have cartographic knowledge or that they did not have access to maps. It heavily depends on what time and place you are talking about of course, but places like the Near East and Ancient China produced many highly detailed and accurate (by ancient standards) maps that were used for both administration and war. A problem of course is that our knowledge of ancient cartography is extremely limited, because maps tend to be created on organic materials like cloth or wood that only very rarely survive in the archaeological record.

[@helginator]

Alexander the great asked the locals for adivce and guide when he traveld. As places he went to did not have maps.

[@Zeithri]

1:38 - HAH! HAHA HA HA! This is *EXACTLY* how I never get lost at all and don't need a map once I've been to a place once! Great video.

[@KTChamberlain]

An interesting point but ask yourself this: would you rather have Hollywood stop using this trope or fire arrows in battle?

[@ernavill3261]

As long as they stop giving Vikings horns I'm good with either of those!

[@KTChamberlain]

@@ernavill3261 Agreed.

[@thehumanoddity]

Fire arrows were used in sieges.

[@ernavill3261]

@@thehumanoddity sources or it didn't happen

[@thehumanoddity]

@@ernavill3261 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons#Flaming_arrows.2C_bolts.2C_spears_and_rockets They were effective considering most roofs were made of wood.

[@Ivanovic5580]

Thank you for awesome videos and making history fun for everyone.

[@vinifalleroliveira]

It's just like trying to lead troops in Mount and Blade instead of Total War

[@francoandres3850]

Exactly. M&B is, actually, quite accurate.

[@vinifalleroliveira]

@@francoandres3850 No steady formations, simple commands(move 5 steps forward), no knowledge of terrain(except Visual), can't keep advanced tactics in the middle of the battle. Basically, the game is so simple, that it became realistic.

[@francoandres3850]

@@vinifalleroliveira Only problem I see is how small scaled battles are. Bannerlord however is pushing the boundaries, and it's looking great. Sieges are works of art.

[@vinifalleroliveira]

@@francoandres3850 Ain't it? If it really is improved Warband and every new feature works as promised, it'll very likely gonna be my personnal GOTY. In expectations for world events tho, like the Nord invasion.

[@jeremyeichelberger9243]

Excellent work. Thank you!

[@Robert53area]

Fact, because we use their same principle map today, we call them sandbox maps. Its a easily crafted map of a terrain and significant locations and troops. Its usually made of dirt and rocks. Why, because you can destroy the map just as fast as you make it.

[@TheLeemaVids]

7:08 can you please make a video on evolution of armies in terms of why don't they fight in blocks/lines/rows anymore and why it changed with modern long-range weapons?

[@Mario-lg9uw]

Gunpowder changed the whole thing,the fully auto gattling guns and cannon and so on and so foruth

[@TheLeemaVids]

@@Mario-lg9uw they still fought in lines/blocks during Napoleonic wars tho

[@Mario-lg9uw]

@@TheLeemaVids from my knowledge fully automaric machine guns basically made lines useless as by putting your soldiers in a line you basically put your army at the disposañ of weapons who could fire 600 rounds per minute

[@moriskurth628]

So, if we were to apply this to worldbuilding, maps would be used in military planning if there was a reliable way to produce accurate ones in sufficent quantity (as in, if many people use maps to navigate already, why not the military as well?), and for decisions over the battlefield it depends on how large and complex the units are. At least that's how far as I figure it. If you have a fantasy world for instance, having aerial reconissance units like dragons or such would make maps more useful, as the scout could easily explain what they saw on an accurate map. If that isn't the case, however, using the old-fashioned way is more realistic.

[@CarrotConsumer]

Look into early uses of hot air balloons and air ships for reconnaissance. That might be useful inspiration.

[@Crimethoughtfull]

I grew up in the countryside of Oklahoma and Arizona (moved when I was young). Now I've been living in different cities for the last 15 years...I get to know the roads of the cities, but I don't *know* the city like I *knew* the landscape where I grew up. Yeah, advancing armies didn't grow up in the newest battlefield, but being IN the landscape and experiencing it is as good as a map (in the localized territory of ancient battles). But, yeah...hadn't thought of this topic before and was wondering how one could spend 16min explaining it. Good job!

[@yeoman1091]

14:25 Blood for the blood God! Skulls for the skull Throne!

[@d.esanchez3351]

In the name of the Emperor, let non survive!

[@ww2killerk]

It is better to die for the emperor then live for yourself!

[@tobago3679]

Thank you! great video. Very informative, interesting and historically detailed.

[@johnmurdoch3083]

Id like to know at what point battlefield maps actually became a thing

[@comradebear9477]

Chess started as a type of battlefield model during the Gupta Empire. In one of the early versions during the 3rd Century, the Rook equivalent depicted fortifications & couldn't be moved during the game, and the players would roll die to model the FoW.

[@devilhunterred]

@@comradebear9477 His information is false. Cartography is ancient China was much more advanced. They found accurate provincial maps drawn on silk dating back Qin dynasty of 4th century BCE. Using abstract maps for battle planning also existed, it eventually evolved into the game of Go, which existed as far back as 2,500 years ago.

[@kristiankho]

"on a Galactic Scale" _references to Warhammer40k_ I already liked you but now I like you more. Keep teaching us stuff!

[@bashkillszombies]

"Just imagine trying to travel across the country without GPS navigation." You mean like we all did up until ten years ago. Right. >_> It's sooooo hard. You have to look at road signs every now and then, or know which way North is. INCREDIBLY HARD.

[@FreyasArts]

03:04 In my language there is a saying that translates to "Every road leads to Rome" nowadays it simply means "we will find a way" but it really blew my mind when I saw the Roman map. No wonder we say this if we had a map like that. Now I look at the saying from a completely different perspective. It's really fascinating.

[@mordador2702]

Invicta: Talks about superior Roman tactics. Shows a picture that looks like Teutoburg forest.

[@CarrotConsumer]

That was from the Show Rome and was in Gaul. I believe it was Alesia but I might be wrong.

[@mordador2702]

I didn't say it was Teutoburg forest, just that it looks similar enough ^^

[@rafaelllaban4115]

Amazing video as always!