Did Atonality RUIN music?

[@eosborne6495]

It’s funny for me to think of the person on the street preferring Mozart to Schoenberg. I am something of a latecomer to classical music, having spent most of my youth (and still today) listening to jazz and world music and punk rock. One of the first classical composers I really got into was Stravinsky, because he appealed to those jazz/world/punk sensibilities. It actually took me much longer to appreciate Mozart because I initially found him unbearably dull until I really started studying classical form. When you think about the styles of music that are popular today, the average music fan on the street has more tolerance of dissonance and chaotic timbres than you might think.

[@0reason2exist]

I have a very similar experiece as you. And still have a difficult time appreciating Mozart.

[@Quim1441]

Most of Mozart's music is childish and naive. Just the last works (the last piano concertos, symphonies, requiem) are the great ones for me.

[@georgesdelatour]

I find Adorno both great and petty, wonderful and infuriating. His hostility to Stravinsky feels ridiculous. Even Schoenberg - who was not a fan of Stravinsky - felt Adorno’s attacks went way too far. It feels to me that Adorno couldn’t deal with a great composer whose approach was so radically at odds with the ideals of the Austro-German musical tradition. Adorno came to the early Darmstadt summer schools to lecture. Apparently the young Stockhausen took a dislike to Adorno, because he felt the old man was trying to prescribe the musical direction the young composers should take. In one lecture, Stockhausen got up and told Adorno he was “trying to find a chicken in an abstract painting.”

[@Quim1441]

🎯

[@PolkRidgeAesthete]

Bravo, Stockhausen!

[@MG-ye1hu]

When I prepared for an article about Stravinsky a few years ago, I found Adorno's text from "Philosophie der Neuen Musik" the most interesting, despite his negative angle. I think he was one of the greatest music critics of the 20. century. And I would even go further and say that his very distict esthetic positions are essential for his significance. That classical music has become so irrelevant today is mainly because liberal culture is at odds with the culture of classical music. If everything is "ok", nothing can be exceptional.

[@linuslauterbach2975]

There's a "debate" (it's a civil conversation) between Stockhausen and Adorno about this from some old german radio programme here on youtube. No subtitles though iirc.

[@Stevie-Steele]

The DEFINING feature of Western Classical music is "The Score". The stylistic developments have always been intrinsically linked to the ideas and forms that naturally develop from the architectural framework it creates. This also means that composers could meticulously "craft" pieces of music that didn't depend upon aural memory alone. Polyphonic planning, motivic development, complex harmonies - these all developed because of this. Rhythmic complexity was one of the things that took longest to develop. It's harder to notate! Plus Classical music is not driven by a percussion backbone like most folk music is. Classical music can be almost anything, it's limitless - but the "centre" of it is "The Score". It becomes more clear when we compare it with other musical traditions and the ways they have developed. Progressive Rock and Jazz for example both have a degree of complexity to them but the parameters which they develop most are the ones that can be communicated aurally - and don't require the architectural tapestry of the Classical Score. Rhythmic complexity, ornamental complexity - spontaneity and "jam-like" music - they are all metrics of complexity that can be developed without the Score - but the "Classical approach" is defined by the harmonic and contrapuntal tapestry and also the carefully "planned" form.

[@samuel_andreyev]

It’s partly true. But other musical cultures have developed various forms of musical notation but not prioritised polyphony to nearly the same degree.

[@Stevie-Steele]

@@samuel_andreyev Yes Western Classical has a greater capacity to be architecturally advanced and also much more "exact". Leonard Bernstein talked about "alternative names" for Classical Music and I think "Exact" was one he mentioned... it makes sense because Prog Rock and Jazz often work with "loose outlines" that can be filled in with spontaneous ornamental details but Classical Music is much more exact and leaves less room for improvisation. Having said that - some Renaissance and Baroque era music sounds a bit bare without some degree of added improvisatory ornamentation so the "loose outline" concept actually crosses over with Western Classical music - up until a certain point where the architectural and polyphonic "exactitude" really demands much stricter following of every single note of a piece. Nothing is "left to chance" - apart from interpretation of course!

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

If Beethoven hadn’t existed, someone today could not write in the style of Beethoven. The history of music would be different. It’s like a sci fi movie hypothetical. Beethoven was discovering new territory on the frontier of music in his time.

[@ercsey-ravaszferenc6747]

It's not atonality per se what ruined a great part of the 20th century repertoire. The emancipation of atonality was unavoidable and necessary. It was the worshiping of atonality, of the dissonance in general which made any composer who thought and created in some sort of gravitational tonal system an outlier at best. Worse yet, in our insane cult of absolute originality, whenever a new musical structure appeared, it became the trademark of the one who invented it and thus "go wild" became the order of the day. For heaven's sake, Mozart's first symphonies are barely distinguishable from those of Haydn (I'm talking about the average, knowledgeable listener, not in depth score analysis and paternity tests), yet we expect brand new, beginner composers to find their own original voices immediately. This is insane! We don't need to go back to tonality, at least not in the sense in which the term is generally understood: the tonal-functional loose framework which in spite of it's constant changes defined music for three centuries. We need to go back however to a way to create expectations. This is the composer's main game: we create an expectation in the listener and then we have choices, many choices, from total fulfillment to radical surprises of many different kinds. An enormous part of the output of the 20th century however consists of pieces in which unpredictable is followed by unpredictable and so on ad nauseam. But if every subsequent note, chord, rhythm is a surprise, then nothing is a surprise, because surprise can only happen when there is an expectation. That sort of music robs the human brain of it's capacity to receive sounds in an almost grammar-like framework. It's a flow of sounds in which the only organizing principle which could and should distinguish it from noise is the composer's whim, and that's not nearly enough!

[@rikbardyn5914]

very inspiring..... as always !!!!

[@AetherPavilion]

Really enjoyed your thoughts on these very interesting questions. I’m a bit of a minimalist, so nothing more to add, except that I love your Piano Piece No. 2.

[@blackeyedolive]

"How many of the composers who have won the pulitzer prize do we remember today?" I went to a performance today of a Jacob Druckman work and was simultaneously shocked by the quality of the work and saddened by the fact that virtually no one outside of this one institution (Rice University) performs his music anymore.

[@guest_informant]

If I understand correctly I think a question similar to the one about Beethoven is addressed in Borges' famous (it's got its own Wikipedia page) short story _Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote_ In the story a modern author, Pierre Menard, immerses himself in the time of Cervantes with the aim of being able to write (not re-write) _Don Quixote_ word for word, and the claim is that, despite being identical word for word with the original, Menard's version is better because of, for instance, the imagination required to span the centuries since the original was written. I've probably butchered that in several ways but look it up. It's a great story, and only eight pages long :-)

[@agsmith001]

Thanks for taking the time to teach, I hope it doesn't distract too much from composition.

[@samuel_andreyev]

On the contrary, it’s very stimulating.

[@karinacari899]

Hello Samuel Andreyev! Could you please do an analysis for the music of Thomas Adès? I really like his composition "Dawn Chacony for orchestra at any distance", but also many other compositions of his. Have a wonderful day!

[@Jinkaza1882]

"The emancipation of the dissonance" rolls around in my head at all times. It is why I have come to view all the chromatic tones we have in WEMS as one giant chord and any one note at anytime is can be a leading tone. The "sciencing of the arts" has been an issue that all art has wrestled with, and the Vulcanization (Star Trek) leads to "emancipation of emotion" from the arts.

[@musicfriendly12]

An interesting counterpoint to Beethoven though is, if we are not the same to compose it... Then... Are we the same to listen to it? How could we? Wouldn't it be BETTER to recompose it? Why does the weight of music history really have to put itself on top of us? Tbh I disagree with the notion that we can't, just think that the people that could are mostly focused on doing other things... And I think that it could be equally genius, in theory, but no, no one would care... Beethoven is way more than it's music, specially for casual listeners, because they don't really understand the details and dynamics of the works, they don't know what composing really is... But to finalize, in my opinion, yes, we should learn music history and technique just the same... But music, no, it shouldn't put it's weight on us so much, I truly defend "new music at all costs"... I'd rather have music get worse but be more alive... The knowledge of Beethoven and others has to be there, of course, but we should avoid playing the same works over and over again, specially in this rich comtemporary world of audio recording. In my dream classical education world, at least 1 in 4 should be first time performances (I know it seems absolutely radical, but think about the pros and cons of it, and how other styles do achieve that somewhat)

[@nikolausgerszewski2086]

... the question about writing in Beethoven style was "if he had never existed...". So it's not about copying Beethoven, but about BEING Beethoven today. If Beethoven never had existed, then all of his followers wouldn't have existed either. So the musical landscape of today would be to some extent a different one, and Beethoven's music would be new music. Would he be recognized as bringing something new to the table, or would he be perceived as outdated? We can assume that even with that gap Beethoven would have left in the 19th century, by not existing, atonality would still have proceeded, and anyone composing in tonality today would be conscious about the possibility of atonality, microtonality etc.; so if they still decide for tonality, it is a different decision than it was 200 years ago. So the question is: would Beethoven today, being conscious of atonality, microtonality, etc. still compose the same music he actually composed 200 years ago? The answer is propably 'yes', because he couldn't do otherwise (and still be Beethoven) but if he did, he would do it for different reasons, and it would be perceived differently. I think that thought experiment exactly defines the purpose of performing Beethoven today: it should be performed as if it was contemporary music.

[@almosdrozdik6738]

It's not really against Beethoven, but Beethoven's approach to form and composition permeates the study of classical music to an extent that is unhealthy, and unhelpful in understanding (and appreciating) other composers to the extent they deserve it. That doesn't mean that that kind of approach should be eliminated or shoved to the background, but we need new directions, and those can only be discovered if we are willing to break with tradition.

[@samuel_andreyev]

I agree that there is an overemphasis on the high classical style to the detriment of other, equally viable and significant approaches.

[@MNorbert89]

Atonality is like salt for food. It can make food more delicious and tasty but if you only eat salt you'll die.

[@jppitman1]

Leo Ornstein`s son, Severo, has been instrumental in keeping his father`s music alive. And he is no slouch himself as a pianist. You do need your advocates.

[@newmono7341]

Many thanks for addressing my question. I agree with your response, and I must admit that my hypothetical about Beethoven’s music was too fantastical to be answerable, and wasn’t a necessary example!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Interesting question tho!

[@ChainsawCoffee]

@@samuel_andreyev I kind of think you missed the question a bit. First, what might contemporary music be like without the influence of Beethoven? That's a big question, which is a large influence on the second. How would Beethoven stand out today, writing as he wrote? We would not know the name of Beethoven. Many film scores, even cartoons, make extensive use of orchestral music. Hildur Guðnadóttir wrote the score for _Joker_ and based on what I've heard of her earlier personal music, I would never have thought any of that would result in that soundtrack. Philip Glass drove a taxi for years. Beethoven wasn't an overnight success in his own time; he worked at it. Today he would be hustling just like every other composer, and he would be writing what he felt he needed to write.

[@johanwk]

The presentation is enjoyable and thought-provoking! I just found myself reaching for the "double like" button, but I couldn't find it.

[@TheLeonhamm]

In short .. patronage; who pays for the work, what it was commissioned 'for', why the artist is considered adept at presenting it and the art apt sufficiently to enhance or encapsulate the purpose of the commission = where it is to be shown, how it is to be framed (yes, even in terms of music, with a hummable tune or stripped of it - for effect). Thus, a Latin Mass society wants to commission a new work to present - adequately and sublimely - the New Order of Mass, in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew (with some local vernacular), for a newly constructed basilica with typically (and recognisably) Catholic fabric, its Sacred Tradition, and and its ageless meaning (though within the strictures of the latest Vatican instruction). You go and have a look at the building (the framework) and its focus (the context) .. you do not find icons of Pachamama or Luce, the artwork is not in the Rupnik manner .. let alone that of red squiggles .. yet it is 'modern' (light, though colourful, minimalist, yet humanistic, resonant, but quiet; might you feel able to deliver .. something memorable, re-do-able, and with a capacity for some artistic licence in the performance (over the next hundred years) .. Here, should you consider it, you have to understand the shifting shades and lights of mood, for instance, it might be that the occasion is to commemorate the joy, sorrow and glory of Mary's Assumption or the grief, abandonment, and hope-against-hope of Good Friday's Stations of the Cross .. both offering scope for atonal shocks and tonal sentiments, the plainest plainchant and the merriest polyphony, with fugues or drum-solos, and, if appropriate, with nods to the Missa Luba and Missa de Angelis, to Palestrina, Allegri, Beethoven, Faure, Messiaen, Górecki .. but all set in the strictest of strict attention to the liturgical action - a Herculean task, I grant you, if not quite Mission Impossible territory, yet perhaps worthwhile (even in our swift-passing 'today') ....? ;o)

[@Quim1441]

18:38 this is one of the keys to understand music

[@RachManJohn]

How about the Albenoni adagio? That was a relatively convincing baroque faximilie.

[@PeterWetherill]

Shoenberg: "Production of an entire piece through the application of variation is an approach to the logic of larger compositions" !

[@chex1007]

What do you make of Jacob Collier? Could you maybe make a video reacting to him and his music?

[@not_emerald]

Theodor Adorno and Don Van Vliet walk into a bar.

[@PolkRidgeAesthete]

And the good Captain kicks his pretentious, effete and grotesquely privileged ass in an entertaining plethora of ways.

[@georgesdelatour]

I like the Webern Op 24 T-shirt!

[@samuel_andreyev]

Aw thanks, you noticed!

[@marc_onofrio]

36:30 Immediately made me think of John Zorn, his Book of Angels series is basically just that.

[@bazingacurta2567]

Polyphony might be the thing that holds Western classical music tradition together? What on Earth? So when Mozart, for instance, writes in a melody plus accompaniment type of texture he's not taking part in the Western classical tradition because he's not, at that moment, preoccupied with polyphony? Seems like a pretty absurd thing to think of, to me at least. Yes, polyphony was crucial to the start of the common practice era, and even to renaissance music, but since the classical period it has just been one possible texture among several others. So, polyphony's central importance has only been the case for less than a half of the Western classical music timeline.

[@AlamoCityCello]

Good work Sam!

[@Theprogressivemusician]

Did you mention Alban Berg and Anton Webern at 27:27?

[@bazingacurta2567]

Why is Dr. Wilson from Dr. House talking about atonality?

[@caseydahl1952]

Mr. Andreyev, I urge you to reconsider your alignment with jordan peterson's online university - while it might serve as a rare opportunity for a contemporary composer to reach a large, receptive audience, this opportunity for you is not worth alignment with what are essentially far-right wing, intellectually dishonest grifters funded by oil billionaires. please continue to spread your musical wisdom on your youtube channel, far from these far right political machinations.

[@nathangale7702]

It's a tough call. There are definitely reasons to be skeptical of Peterson's project, but should artists turn their back on the people who take Peterson seriously? I think it's better for artists to participate in the grand debates.

[@samuel_andreyev]

@nathangale7702 There are way more reasons to be skeptical about studying composition at Harvard.

[@mylesjordan9970]

@@samuel_andreyevThank you!

[@paulbloof675]

check John Vervake who lectured down the hall from him

[@paulbloof675]

close

[@hyperaticism]

I prefer to say that rhythmic and dynamic pointillism "ruins" music more than atonality. When there's an underlying rythm and dynamic for a certain period of time, sense of tension and release, regularity and irregularity can be attained in comparing to this underlying "gauge" even if the music is atonal. Pointillism throw these away altogether and what we hear (if we do not analyse the score) is just a huge cadenza. Pieces that sounds totally rubato throughout that was created in a older day also sound very uninteresting.

[@ballefranz7059]

is it some Webern stuff on your t-shirt? :)

[@guest_informant]

Honestly for me Mozart is a racket. Too many notes ;-)

[@Quim1441]

28:10 🇩🇪Helmut Lachenmann 🇦🇹Georg Friedrich Haas 🇨🇭Beat Furrer (Graz based) And I feel I'm missing someone.

[@tototouri]

matthias spahlinger possibly (passage/paysage specifically)

[@chibaz8882]

I don't think the question at 34:37 should have been "how do you feel about being part of the Peterson Academy?", but, rather, "do you identify with the academy's mission statement and see yourself as part of the opposition to the 'onslaught of idiot ideological propaganda'"? I had no previous knowledge of Andreyev's involvement with this - somewhat surprised but also aware that everyone has a price.

[@jedtulman46]

Sometimes my music veers tonal sometimes atonal. They are both "colourblind or colors to be deployed if you will.

[@jedtulman46]

Yes i AM a composer !( lol)

[@ggauche3465]

I love and thrive on Strav, also Schoenberg and Varese. But I've also recently discovered Taylor Swift, well her older songs. Am I wrong?

[@delibellus]

Yes, Samuel, please join Harvard instead of Peterson so you can at least be far left (still better than not existing at all).

[@samuel_andreyev]

With so many offers pouring in from Ivy League universities, it’s hard to know which ones to accept!

[@josemiguelmaciasvocar2690]

How is Harvard far left?? uness your definition of far left is anything left of Pinochet

[@matthijshebly]

Aligning yourself with a grifter like Peterson is a huge disappointment... You are (were?) better than that. Please, please, reconsider.

[@Quim1441]

🎯

[@rubenmolino1480]

Master, it would be interesting to try to see how a horde of young composers try to copy the epic of film music, where anything goes, and above all continue to believe themselves to be free creators, free?

[@danantoniumaestrodistortion]

Yesss a new video!

[@cyberprimate]

Regarding "atonal" or not… Should we stop speaking of night and day because our experience of them becomes blurry twice everyday? Should we stop calling dachshund, pitbull, boxer… "dogs" because of how different their phenotype is, and stop considering they share a fundamental difference with wolves?

[@tylers9006]

Night and day are natural phenomenons. Taxonomy is a science. Music is a social construct. So no to both questions, because the definitions of musical characteristics can change while earth’s rotation and the scientific method stay the same. And yes, the concept of tonality is subjective while the physical world and science is not.

[@Paul-Kinkade]

Person: asks something Samuel Andreyev: “I disagree with your question.”

[@bazingacurta2567]

You completely missed the point with that question about atonality possibly having "ruined music". Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Schoenberg, Berg and Webern are not widely listened to precisely because their music is unpalatable to most people? How could they possibly be popular if, according to the person who asked this, they may have ruined music? Your reasoning makes no sense. And yet, their influence on the Western classical music tradition is completely disproportionate, their legacy still playing, to this day, a central role in the way composers write and in said tradition's self-conception.

[@toxic-o1u]

Atonal music is anti-music, similar like modern architecture is basically anti-architecture

[@pixiirespighi]

O Honey... You're just winging it aren't you? I wish you well in your shameless self-promotion.